doesn't work. you can also follow me on threads on linkedin on mastodon. i post there daily as well. stay right where you are inside with jen psaki begins right now. joe. >> come on. >> getting stronger and louder every day. >> i'm going to talk to senator cory booker. >> about what democrats and the courts are doing to fight back. plus, my exclusive interview with maryland governor wes moore, whose state is dealing with this assault in real time. and later, i'll talk to the former twitter executive who's giving out free advice to federal workers about how to handle a musk takeover. okay, i kind of think that i mean, to some degree, what we are seeing from donald trump right now is sort of what we expected. the strange obsessions

and the constant bluster and the wild pronouncements. none of that is anything really that new. there was also the talk about taking over greenland and canada and the panama canal. there was the short lived trade war with nothing to show for it. there was the decision just yesterday to strip security clearances from people he doesn't like. there was the third person announcement that he's appointing himself chairman of the kennedy center. and i could go on and on and on, but i'm not going to. the point is, if you have been following donald trump for the last decade, and many of you i know have been, this is all very much what you might expect from a trump 2.0. and i guess this continuation of the trump show is, on some level, what a slight majority of the american people may have voted for. i don't know. but what you may not have bargained for, what they may not have bargained for, and i certainly didn't, is what i'm going to call musk 1.0. i actually think it's safe to say people were not prepared for the way trump has basically ceded his power. i mean, there's a reason. time magazine's latest

cover shows musk sitting in the oval office behind the resolute desk. and i'm just going to leave that up there for a second, because why not? and because over the past few weeks, elon musk has elbowed his way into nearly every corner of the government, shuttering agencies, firing employees, gaining access to the sensitive personal data belonging to millions of americans, and an interview that's going to air later today. trump said he's not done yet. >> i'm going to tell him very soon, like maybe in 24 hours, to go check the department of education. he's going to find the same thing. then i'm going to go to the military. let's check the military. we're going to find billions, hundreds of billions of dollars of fraud and abuse. and, you know, the people elected me on that. >> i mean, did they really? did the american people really elect you to let elon musk do what he's doing? because it turns out the american people don't love it. a new poll out just this morning shows that just 23% of

all americans say they want musk to have a lot of influence over government operations and spending. and boy, does he seem to have a lot of influence. and this dissatisfaction isn't just showing up in polls. i mean, it's also showing up in real life. we saw protests all across the country this week, and big ones here in washington like this protest you can see on the screen from the country's largest federation of unions. when workers caught wind that musk planned to show up at the department of labor on wednesday, intending to shut it down. hundreds of people, you can see them there gathered on the building's steps, ready to meet him. guess what? he never showed up. people are also lighting up the phone lines of congressional offices, many of them fed up with elon musk. but what he's doing. of course they are. republican senator lisa murkowski said the usual call volume coming into the senate is about 40 calls a minute. but right now it's 1600 calls a minute. independent senator angus king said he's been hearing from constituents constantly about doge and musk,

and that his office can hardly pick up the phones fast enough. democratic senator tina smith put it like this. it's a deluge on doge. according to the new york times, an aide for republican senator john curtis estimated that about 60% of the calls coming into his office were critical of musk, while the other 40% concerned trump's nominees. as the times reports, congresswoman becca balint has reassigned at least six additional staff members to keep up with a nonstop flood of calls about doge's access to personal and private information. and listen, i can definitely see why someone might want to pick up the phone to ask about that. they should. so yeah, we are seeing dissatisfaction in the polls. we're seeing it in protests all across the country. and perhaps most importantly, we are seeing pushback in the courts. on friday, a federal judge ordered the trump administration to stop some aspects of its attempt to shut down usaid. and overnight on friday, another federal judge

temporarily blocked the doj's crew from accessing sensitive treasury department payment systems. and of course, musk already seems to be suggesting he may defy that order. and a lot of this is happening in the courts and in the streets and in congress because of trump's decision to let elon musk do basically whatever he wants. now, trump, of course, isn't blameless in all of this. i'm not suggesting that he chose to empower musk, and he's watching it all happen without objection. but right now, he's not really the main character. i mean, heading into the new administration, we had this guiding light. at least i did this core principle. watch what trump does, not what he says. don't get distracted by that. but at least right now, i think we have to make a bit of a revision. right now, we need to watch what musk does, not what trump says. and what he's doing is genuinely concerning and alarming. but the good news is that everyone from the courts to the congress to the american people are watching. and for the most part, they don't seem to like what they see. and joining

me now is democratic senator cory booker of new jersey. okay. senator, there is so much i want to get to with you, but i just want to start i've been reflecting on the last couple of weeks, as i know you have been and you've been very busy. i think trump's approach so far this term seems aspects of it seem kind of predictable. but to me, what elon musk is doing right now isn't entirely what i anticipated. has anything surprised you about his actions? >> i mean, i think. >> what has surprised. me is the complicity of my republican colleagues, who often have been champions of these ideas of privacy. this is elon musk, who is one of our biggest government contractors, one of our big military contractors, who now has unfettered access to the most personal information from fema, information about people's homes, houses to medical information, information on the medicines people take, tax information, social security information. and get this. we

are in a time of ai. people are saying, oh, it's just read. only he can still scrape data, get pattern recognition, get predictive analytics, feed it into ai models. and what he can do is simply revolutionary. by having access to the information, it's value on the open market, because other contractors would love to have. this is billions of billions of dollars. there's no oversight, there's no checks, there's no transparency to what he's doing. and you hear crickets from republicans. you hear silence. and so this is offensive to americans. this is violative of values we hold sacrosanct. like our private personal information should not be for a very conflicted contractor. so this is one of these things that to me is astonishing. and we're going to continue to fight him in court because i think he is violating privacy, violating the law by having access to this kind of sensitive data. and it's something that we all, as americans, should be shouting down and stopping. >> no question about it. and

thank you for outlining exactly how it will impact people, because this is not just something that's happening within the walls of washington. this is going to impact millions of people across the country. you just mentioned the fight in the courts, and there has been some, certainly some successes in pushing back on musk in the courts. you know, over the weekend there has been a couple of actions, but he tweeted last night or retweeted a message last night suggesting he should defy court orders. the democrats, you have been very vocal, but the democrats are in the minority in the senate. you mentioned the republicans have been quiet like crickets. what happens if he defies it? >> well, then we really do have a constitutional crisis. it's where our separation of powers, our checks and balances that he starts more and more. we're seeing this wanting to be autocratic or dictatorial. we see this in other countries. when a executive power starts to overreach their authority. and he is, by the way, doing things that are spelled out as

congress's duties. and then when the courts stop him, how we've settled things from the reagan administration to the obama administration to defy court orders, brings about a constitutional crisis. and so what elon musk is saying there is that we should not be a nation of three branches of government with checks and balances. we should be an authoritarian dictatorship, a dictatorship, and that should scare everyone, because that's when democracies begin to unravel. we must check him. we must hold him up. we must stop them. and we must use every means necessary in a nonviolent way to do what is necessary to stop him from turning our democracy into what we're seeing in other governments, like russia's. >> we've seen some significant efforts to push back, or there's been protests across the country here in washington, d.c, as well. we've seen congressional democrats push back. we watched your effort to hold the senate floor overnight this week in opposition of trump's omb

director, russ vought, who did eventually get through. but i know you said this morning that you guys are going to do whatever it takes. you just kind of reiterated that to stop donald trump for people watching right now, what does that mean specifically? what does that look like? what specific things can they can they look out for? >> yeah. well, let me just give you the nod to the fact that elections matter. you know, we had picked up one more senate seat, for example, 20,000 votes in pennsylvania. we could have stopped that from being because, remember, three republicans went. so every congressional seat, every senate seat, people don't think it at the time. that's the time we really need people to leaning in, because the consequences for that we're seeing right now, we do not control the house, and we're in a minority in the senate, and we don't control the white house. that gives them tremendous power, even within the bounds of how our democracy is supposed to work. but that does not mean we are powerless, that we don't have agency. democrats are going to fight in four ways. one is in the courts. we've discussed that already. over 42 cases have been filed. we've won over a dozen of

them already, and we're going to continue to fight him in the courts. the next two ways are legislatively and using our oversight power. senators do have power in the quorums of our procedure and our oversight to just slow things down, to force people to take a look at it. kash patel is a great example. just by postponing his floor vote over a week, we've seen more information coming out, like him receiving thousands and thousands of dollars from a russian implicated news agency that literally he took money from that has done other documentaries that are pro-putin and more. and so that's very important for us to be able to slow things down, get a deeper look, to be able to provide oversight. but the last thing that we have to do, the fourth bucket, that's not only something that we have an obligation to do, but every american does, is to shine a light, to elevate, to communicate, to talk about what's going. i am very happy this last week that democratic senators have had millions of more engagement with their content online, that it's exposing what the trump administration is doing. and why

do i know this work works? well? the collective voice of outrage during his first administration stopped him from pulling down the affordable care act in people's health care, people with preexisting conditions and others. and i know it works this time because just two weeks ago, when donald trump froze federal spending to programs like ones that give funding for our police officers and our firefighters, or suicide prevention hotlines or feeding programs for our elderly, there was such a public outrage and so much content was elevated online that the trump administration stopped in their tracks, and then the law kicked in and we were able to get an injunction against him doing that. all of the buckets of our work work in coordination to be a bulwark against what he's going to do. but i return to where i started. they won multiple elections and they have a lot more authority. but that does not mean we are powerless, that we don't have agency, and most importantly, all of us, especially us elected. but all of us have a responsibility in

this time and this climate to speak up, to stand up, to be activists against these kind of illegal actions of the trump administration. >> senator cory booker, always a pleasure talking to you. thank you so much for joining me. >> thank you for having me. >> coming up, we're governors across the country are also on the front lines fighting back against this government takeover by donald trump and elon musk. maryland governor wes moore is one of them, and he's going to weigh on all of it after a very weigh on all of it after a very quick bre my moderate to severe crohn's symptoms kept me out of the picture. with skyrizi, feel symptom relief at 4 weeks. many people were in remission at 12 weeks, at 1 year, and even at 3 years. don't use if allergic. serious allergic reactions, increased infections, or lower ability to fight them may occur. before treatment, get checked for infections and tb. tell your doctor about any flu-like symptoms or vaccines. liver problems leading to hospitalization may occur when treated for crohn's. ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ ask your gastroenterologist about skyrizi.

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after he delivered his state of the state address this week, where he discussed his plans to take on the uncertainty, confusion and chaos being sowed by this administration. here's our conversation. so you just delivered your state of the state address this week. and in that state of the state address, you said that maryland is being tested by a new administration in washington. you said we've seen the beginnings of a trade war, the shuttering of federal agencies and plans to lay off thousands of workers. these ideological moves will have the distinct impact of hurting the middle class. you are in a unique spot for a range of reasons, but including maryland is right next to washington, d.c. you're hugely impacted. >> we're uniquely. >> just tethered to washington, where. >> i. >> have over 160,000 federal. employees who call the state of maryland home, and that doesn't include our contractors. that does not include our uniformed personnel. we are also we're the home of fort meade of aberdeen proving grounds of the united states naval academy, some of the largest and most important assets that we have in our

country call the state of maryland home. and so when we're watching things like a whole flurry of executive orders, many of them performative, many of them contradictory, many of them not thought out at all, many of them unconstitutional and illegal. and you're watching a level of panic and frustration amongst a population who are simply public servants, people who show up every single day at these various agencies and who are just hoping to do good work on behalf of the american people. it's something that cannot go without a response from me. >> how has your job changed in the last three weeks? >> it's like a light switch because all, all, all we look for is partnership. you know, i understand my sole responsibility is to make sure that i'm protecting the 6.5 million people who call maryland home. my sole responsibility is making sure that we can make life more affordable for them. all we ask for is partnership, is communication, is guidance is

consistency is predictability. and for the last two and a half weeks we have gotten anything but those things from this new administration. and it's troubling. >> i think it's so important for people to understand the actual impact on people's lives. and as a governor, you know that. well, i mean, you proposed in your speech a historic investment in public education. i am a mother of little kids. you're a father of little kids, hugely important. our nation's schools. the president is seems to want to get rid of the department of education, help us understand what would that impact that would have on kids in maryland? >> well, i don't understand it. and, you know, and one thing much of much of education policy is actually not made in washington, d.c. it is made at the states. right. so the states and local jurisdictions really are the ones who are doing everything from curriculum to class sizes and all that, all that type of stuff. however, the department of education does play an important role. it's everything from assistance in

funding. it's larger guidance about how we're looking at preparation for college and careers. it's being able to make sure that we're sharing best practices around the country. so the department of education does play an important role. and the public servants who work there are doing really important work. >> one of the impacts on your state is on federal workers and the federal workforce. 2 million federal workers were offered a version of a buyout, which is not legal to leave their jobs. what's happening in usaid is also having ripple effects around the world, but it's affecting hundreds of employees in baltimore. this all seems to be at the hands of elon musk. when people are your constituents are calling you or questioning your office, what's going on here? what can we do about this? what do you tell them? >> you know, part. >> part of the challenge that i'm seeing with some things we're seeing with, with, with doge is it's that it's not thought out. and actually much of it is illegal because you cannot just dismantle departments or agencies. the congress actually does have a

check and a balance on that. the congress has a role in that. and so when you're hearing things like we're going to offer an eight month buyout, that's it can't be honored because it's illegal. >> do you tell people not to take it when they call your office? >> oh, i tell people, be careful on what you're signing, because once you sign something that is permanent. and so when you are hearing that there is going to be an eight month buyout or a ten month contract negotiation, just be clear. unless congress approves that, it's not legitimate. and so the thing that we want people to know that, you know, and i believe in government efficiency, you know, in fact, i signed an executive order just months ago for starting the government modernization initiative in the state of maryland, where we are going to save the people of our state tens of millions of dollars by doing basic things like fleet management and it consolidation and procurement reform and real estate. and so you can actually do really important work, save the people of your jurisdictions money and do it smartly, efficiently and transparently. the challenge

that we've seen with doge is it's not smart, it's not efficient, and it's definitely not transparent. >> is there anything you can do as governor to help prevent these federal workers from losing their jobs? >> i mean, the challenge for, for a lot of folks is if they're working for the federal government, it's something outside of state boundaries. you know, i'm proud of how many how many federal employees that we have that are living in the state of maryland. but it's difficult to counter what happens on their own individual contracts. the thing that i want all of our marylanders who are federal employees to know is that their service is valued, that their service is needed. and so i would just ask people, as they are going through and thinking through this, remember, who needs you in those seats now more than ever. >> these are all apolitical individuals just keeping communities safe, which i think is so important to keep restating. >> they work for democrats and republicans. it does not matter, because while they might work,

you know, for a democratic president or a republican president who they really work for is the american people. >> the city of baltimore is suing the trump administration over its efforts to eliminate dei programs through executive orders, and dei has been used as a guise from trump and maga world for eliminating basically large swaths of the federal government. it was also used, as, i would just call it, a slur around the bridge collapse in your state. as you're watching this, what is your reaction to what you're seeing them do with dei? >> yeah, my reaction is we focus on excellence and the reason that we want to make sure that we have a table that is big enough, that everybody has a voice and everybody has a say, is because it's the best way to be able to make sure you're covering down your blind spots. it's the best way of understanding what opportunities that you have a chance to capture, that you might not have thought of yourself. it's important because you want to have a multitude of perspectives that are around the table. and

that's why i think having a diverse body and really putting a lens on social equity, why that does matter in terms of being able to produce, i think about our cabinet in the state of maryland. we have, you know, i think unquestionably the most outstanding cabinet group of cabinet secretaries, agency heads that our state has ever seen. it also happens to be the most diverse in our state's history, because i don't think these two things are in conflict. i actually think these two things completely coincide. and so i know i remember when the when the key bridge was, was hit by the dolly and, and instantaneously collapsed. and, you know, there were people who were saying, you know what? you know, calling me the dei governor or saying dei did it. and i was asked, you know, how do you respond? my answer is, i don't because i'm too busy doing the work. >> and the governor had much more to say when he and i sat down for a different kind of conversation, one that's part of a new project we're working on.

you might have noticed a little hint in the corner of your screen. i'm very excited to tell you more about that a little bit later in the show. but first, as elon musk continues his crusade against multiple government agencies, as we've been talking about, we're going to do a deep dive into the highly problematic 20 somethings carrying out his orders are to believe we'll be orders are to believe we'll be right back. baby: liberty! mom: liberty mutual is all she talks about since we saved hundreds by bundling our home and auto insurance. baby: liberty! biberty: hey kid, it's pronounced "biberty." baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: bi-be-rty! baby: biberty! biberty: and now she's mocking me. very mature. mom: hey, that's enough you two! biberty: hey, i'm not the one acting like a total baby. mom: she's two. only pay for what you need ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: liberty.

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and the flavor you love. so, here's to now... now available: boost max! where ya headed? susan: where am i headed? am i just gonna take what the markets gives me? no. i can do some research. ya know, that's backed by j.p. morgan's leading strategists like us. when you want to invest with more confidence... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management >> as we've been talking about throughout the show this week, unelected billionaire elon musk and his ddos posse continued their hostile takeover of the federal government. of course, it's all become increasingly clear that musk is hijacking entire departments and agencies and access to information as he wages an unprecedented and likely illegal assault on the millions of public servants who make up the civil service. the new reporting this week has also given us a clearer picture of the band of young tech bros who make up musk's team, many of

whom are barely out of their teens. so let me start there. and i have to say, given the things they've said, and i'm going to tell you what they've said and done, it is quite a crew. take edward coristine, a 19 year old member of doge entrusted with sensitive information. bloomberg reports that before he was in the job he's in now where he has access to sensitive information. he was fired from an internship in 2022 for wait for it leaking company secrets to competitors. so, yeah, i mean, exactly the kind of guy you want to have access to. sensitive government information. then there is gavin kliger. according to reuters, he was reposting content from white supremacist nick fuentes as recently as october. and then there's 25 year old marco velez, who, according to wired, had access to the code controlling the treasury department's trillions in federal spending. now, if that wasn't alarming enough, and it is alarming, the wall street journal uncovered multiple racist posts from a

since deleted account that had belonged to him. so here's a post from that account in july which says, quote, just for the record, i was racist before it was cool. lots to unpack there, which i'm not going to do. this is one from september. quote. you could not pay me to marry outside of my ethnicity. and here's another one from that month. quote normalize indian hate. and according to npr, another post from december advocated for a, quote, eugenic immigration policy. these are things he's posting online on his own account just a couple of months ago. so it's kind of obvious why les resigned in disgrace on thursday. right? and yet, within hours of his announced departure, elon musk began advocating for him to be rehired, to which the vice president of the united states, jd vance, responded with this. i obviously disagree with some of vélez's posts, but i don't think stupid social media activity should ruin a kid's life. we shouldn't reward journalists who try to destroy people ever. so i

say bring him back. if he's a bad dude or a terrible member of the team. fire him for that. got to wonder there what vance's criteria for bad dude actually is. i mean, again, those posts of his were written as recently as december, and a month later he had access to critical treasury department systems that control trillions of dollars. and now elon musk has made clear he is going to bring this guy back. look, these young tech bros i just described, they're not campaign staffers responsible for getting elon musk's snacks on the campaign trail. that would be bad. but these are people who have been empowered with the access to sensitive government payment data and personal information about millions of government employees. and they are prime targets for foreign adversaries. so as you were making your voice heard out there in whatever format that takes, this should definitely be on your list. coming up after a quick break, a conversation i've been looking forward to all week. rahman

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employees buyouts had the subject line fork in the road, which is the exact same subject line musk used in the severance offer he sent to twitter employees back in 2022, just like he did at twitter. musk is reportedly moving beds into federal agencies. he's pushing mass loyalty tests and mass layoffs, and he's surrounding himself, as i just talked through with some young enablers to carry out his orders. former twitter executive ramon choudhury put it like this to the new york times it's a knife at your throat. feeling the uncertainty is wild. it's quite a quite a visual. so the bad news is this playbook isn't pretty. but the good news is we can learn a lot from the last time it was used. and doctor choudhury, who lived through the musk era at twitter, has actually started sharing advice for the federal employees who are caught in his crosshairs. over on blue sky, of course, that's where you can find it. here's one example safety in numbers. if you are not in signal chats already, find one. you disseminate information and

learn faster with your trusted colleagues. even if you are wary of sharing, at least listen. and now posts like that one are spreading among government employees as a sort of makeshift survival guide. it's quite a service. and joining me now is doctor rahman chowdhury. she is a former twitter executive and she's now the ceo of humane intelligence. thank you so much for joining me. i think you have been doing a tremendous public service to people. so thank you for that too. let me let me just start by asking you. i mean, twitter is obviously a private company and now we're talking about the federal government. but musk strategy seems to follow a familiar pattern, as i just i just outlined a couple of examples. but what else stands out to you about what we're seeing from elon musk right now? >> that's right. >> there seems to. >> be this. >> playbook that happens. >> and it's you know, in short, it's shock and awe. it's constantly keep people scared, uninformed, keep changing things up on them, make demands that are impossible, make new hoops to jump through. and to be honest, i think there are some

people who for whom this kind of environment is just simply not healthy. it's unhealthy for really any employees. and also it's it sows discord. and the one thing i'll say is probably the same thing that happened during us. for us at twitter. no work happens during this for all of the, you know, moving in beds and the dramatics and truly the theater, the theatrics of, you know, saying there's 120 hour work weeks, one has to ask how much work is actually getting done if nobody knows what's going on. >> that's such a good point. there's a lot of theatrics here. i mean, i mentioned some of the pieces of advice you've been putting out there on blue sky and other places, but one piece of but what are the other actions for workers, for federal workers who are watching right now, they're trying to survive a musk takeover. maybe they haven't tuned in yet. to all of your amazing advice, what should they be doing to survive or make this less painful? >> yeah, that's a great question. so following up on the blue sky post, i'm actually working with some former and current federal employees, all

of whom unfortunately need to remain anonymous, to work on a series of articles on what people should be doing. and some of these articles are also written by critical tech thinkers. organizations like stop spying, and they're specifically on what to do if you get doxed, how to prevent workplace surveillance, how to prevent device surveillance. and in short, it's things like, you know, don't have conversations in the workplace, don't have conversations on your work devices, try to log into encrypted end to end networks. you know, just remove yourself from any place or situation in which you can be surveilled. and also just be careful what you say, no matter what platform you're on. and the unfortunate truth is, there are a lot of federal employees sharing documents, you know, working together. but we do have to be careful when we're working with each other, you know, to push back. >> that's where. and is there anywhere we can expect to see this? we'll see it in the coming days or weeks or how should people look out for it? >> yes, some of them will be

published on just security. and again, those are the ones particularly targeted towards device security and workplace surveillance. >> good. that's very helpful information. i just talked through some about some of the very young in some cases very problematic given their posts people that musk is surrounding himself with to help carry out his plans. and does any of that surprise you about what we've learned about these people? and what else should federal employees know about the kind of people he seems to surround himself with? >> i mean, sadly, no. i wish it were surprising, but again, it's sort of a very tired and old and boring playbook, right? anybody with any sort of experience is not attracted to the kind of confusing and toxic work environment. i think it's very appealing to a certain kind of person. we saw it at twitter as well. they were inexperienced engineers from his other companies, who even knows what the legality of that is coming in and evaluating, you know, my team's code, other people's code. you know, we were we had

to do performances of loyalty, of literally printing out code, physically standing in line like we were about to be scolded by a teacher and sitting there and having to justify our teams. and i'm hearing parallel stories, frankly, of, you know, multi-decade federal employees having to sit in front of a child and explain to a child why they shouldn't be fired. not only is that demoralizing, it's insulting. it's actually insulting to the legions of federal employees who do hard work every day. >> no question about it. i wanted to ask you, because you have so much expertise. i mean, there are reports that elon musk's doge crew is now feeding sensitive federal data into ai systems to help target spending cuts. i mean, as an expert on ai, what kinds of and most people don't entirely understand what it does yet. what kinds of risks does that pose, in your view, for government operations and for data security? >> well, there is an extensive vendor vetting process for any

organization to work with the federal government. you know, i should know because my organization has worked with, you know, a wide range of agencies just to download a software overnight and dump data in it is a privacy nightmare. it is a cybersecurity nightmare. and you know that bad actors around the world are just waiting for this data to be insecure and for the laws to not be followed. i mean, these laws exist for a reason. they exist to protect your information, protect your data, and frankly, protect the government from getting hacked. and they seem to be throwing that all to the wind. and they just believe the rules don't apply to them. but the rules are there for a reason. >> doctor choudhury, thank you so much and i hope you'll come back and talk with us. and when these articles are out as well, we'll help. we'll help post them out there for as well. thank you so much for joining us today. coming up, we'll go inside the court battle over a list of fbi agents who worked on january 6th cases and round one just went to the good guys. that's good news,

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january 6th. now, that agreement is the result of a lawsuit filed anonymously by several fbi employees, as well as the fbi agents association, they argued that any disclosure of agents identities would expose them to potential vigilante action by those who they were investigating. given all that we've seen since trump took office, that concern is very reasonable and real. i mean, he freed violent criminals who are vowing revenge against law enforcement. he purged the leadership of the fbi, and this administration ordered a sweeping review of the bureau's workforce to identify the rank and file agents who played any role in those january 6th cases. so, yeah, it certainly seems like those agents are being targeted for retribution. joining me now is chris mattei. he's the lawyer representing the fbi agents in their lawsuit against the doj. so thank you for joining me. i just gave a summary of where things stand, but this is far from over. i think it's fair to say. where does it go from here? >> well. >> we were very grateful. that judge cobb. issued this.

>> order on consent last week, protecting the thousands of members of the. fbi who worked on january 6th. we're now going to be moving towards a preliminary injunction. our objective is to make permanent this prohibition against identifying fbi agents and doxing them and publicly retaliating against them simply for doing their jobs in connection with the january 6th investigations. >> that's going to. >> be moving forward over the course of the next weeks as we brief it and prepare for argument in front of judge cobb. >> i was just talking earlier in the show with senator booker about how elon musk and trump, they don't always think they need to abide by court orders. what happens if the president did move forward in disclosing the names of these agents, or if someone from his administration, in violation of this court order? >> well. >> certainly, if anybody within the federal government publicly discloses the names of these agents, they would be in violation of the court's order.

we would immediately seek a contempt order against them. obviously, there remain questions about the extent to which the president may be immune from that type of conduct, but everybody else in the administration would face significant consequences for doing that. but beyond that, the injury to law enforcement and their ability to conduct their jobs would be catastrophic. >> it's important to note that especially i wanted to ask you in court this week, one of your colleagues pointed out that doj's could already have access to doj computer systems. not that we know that, but that's a possibility. did you get any assurances in court, or do you think that's still a possibility? >> well, that was a brilliant insight by my colleague margaret donovan. we don't know the extent to which doj has penetrated the department of justice computer systems. and the really concerning thing was that the justice department lawyers apparently didn't know either. we couldn't get a straight answer out of them, whether or not that type of

access had been granted. and so it's very concerning that apparently the justice department at this point does not know, or at least the lawyers who were in court didn't know who had had access to this very sensitive information. >> very concerning. you've argued a lot of high profile cases in extensive ways. did you ever think you'd have to protect fbi agents from the actions of their own government? >> it's appalling that we're in this situation. i was a federal prosecutor for eight years. i know the work that the fbi does every day. i know that the risks that they take to themselves and to their families to keep all of us safe, we really could not have imagined that we would have to go to court against the federal government to try and keep the fbi agents safe, but that's what was necessary in a democracy. i think it is hugely important that we protect the people who protect us. we protect the people who protect our own rights, and that's what

we're going to do. >> before i let you go, i mean, there have been threats already against fbi agents. is that the fear of security? is that the reason why people should understand it's so important to keep these names being public from being public? >> yeah. there's no question that people who are involved in the january 6th offenses have vowed retribution against the federal agents who were involved in their cases. there are also others out there who have been led to believe that the january 6th investigation is something other than what it was, and if these folks are exposed, they will be compromised. and as i said earlier, the ability of the justice department and the fbi to investigate other criminal offenses and to keep our community safe will be compromised. >> chris, maddie, thank you so much for your work and for joining me today. coming up, a sneak peek at our brand new podcast launching tomorrow. i'm so excited to tell you about this, and we're back after a very quick break.

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with a medical provider at rocus sparks. >> so i hinted at this earlier, but we have an exciting new project to tell you about. we've been working on. like many of you, i've been thinking a lot about where democrats go from here. what just happened, what it means moving forward. and listen, talking about what trump is doing, how it impacts all of you is important. and the current pushback that's happening every day. talking about that is important. it also takes up a lot of oxygen. and i think the conversation about how

democrats win again, what lessons should be learned in the age of trump deserves more than just a tv segment every now and then. so i basically made a list in november of people i really wanted to talk to, and started a podcast to do exactly that. it's called the blueprint with jen psaki. the first two episodes dropped tomorrow. our first episode is with governor wes moore, a much more casual and open ended conversation than the one we just aired. and in the second episode, i chat with jack schlossberg. yes, he's the grandson of jfk, but i wanted to talk with him because he spends a lot of time thinking about social media and how people consume it, and he does a lot of messing with people online, too. we talk all about that. we've got a sneak peek for you, and as the clip plays, the same qr code is going to be in the corner of your screen so you can take out your phones and scan it to subscribe. what have you found, either from your own experimentation with playing around with social media platforms, or even just from listening to and consuming the products of some of the people

you may totally disagree with. works. >> yeah, i mean, i have like a few thoughts. i think. one is. >> the internet is like a nuanced destruction. >> machine. >> and so. >> there's no room for qualifying anything ever. don't waste your time if you're going to tweet something out like make it so extreme, like make it so extreme that you can't, that it's completely that's what trump does. it's like a completely clear statement. take it all the way. and that's the only thing that really resonates online because everything else it's too confusing otherwise. and the other thing is you have to be controversial or unexpected. so you have to be very clear, and you have to be very controversial in order to break through, i think, and conservatives are good at playing with that without getting in trouble. and i don't know that we've come up with our own style of being funny and taking risks. and people talk a lot about how we lost democrats, lost young men in this election. and i think a huge part of that is like, not because we focus on the wrong policies, but because

we seem so risk averse and we seem so cautious. and i don't think that in general, young men find that as attractive as a more risk on kind of say whatever you want attitude. >> so in case you still need it, scan the qr code on your screen. you can listen to the trailer now and then when you wake up in the morning, these two episodes will be in your feed. the first, again, are with governor wes moore and jack schlossberg. they drop tomorrow morning. that does it for me today. we're going to be right back here at 8 p.m. tomorrow night, eastern time. but stay right where you are because there's much more news coming up on msnbc. >> very good day to all of you from msnbc world. >> headquarters here. >> in new york. welcome, everyone. >> to alex. >> witt reports. >> we begin on day 21 of the second donald trump presidency with a new interview. trump told