invisible on the skin. it works like a dream. why didn't someone. >> think of this sooner?

>> we meet at the end of a. >> week today, punctuated by a reality check and a real window on how our. >> institutions are meeting. >> this moment, how they're withstanding the pressure. >> from the new president. >> and the new trump administration. we're talking about news today of. >> a bit of a reprieve. >> for the men and. >> women of the fbi agents who have been forced to fill out a. >> rather ominous. questionnaire that. detailed their involvement in. any way in any. >> of the january 6th cases. >> men and. >> women of the fbi. >> who then learned. >> that the. >> justice department was leaning on fbi leadership to hand over those names, a demand that fbi leadership first refused to comply with and instead turned over id numbers. the men and women of the. fbi who woke up this morning, then to the news that after all that acting fbi director brian driscoll, in effect, blinked in the standoff with the justice department and did, in fact. >> turn over the full. names of every fbi. agent who worked.

>> on any january 6th case. to put it bluntly, this was unnerving just because of the risk it poses to the men and women of the fbi. >> and their families. >> but also because of what it says about the current strength of our institutions, of that institution. but what happens next is arguably just as important and instructive. within hours of news that the names of all the fbi agents who worked on january 6th cases had been turned over to the justice department, there was another development. we learned this, quote, the trump administration has agreed to keep private a list of fbi employees who worked on january 6th cases, unless it first provides a two day head start for the employees to seek a court's intervention. the agreement between the fbi agents association and donald trump's justice department deescalates for now, a. showdown between the bureau and the department of justice. the agreement also, quote, bars the. entire federal government, not just the justice

department, from making any part of the list public without giving two business days notice. that would allow attorneys for the fbi personnel to ask the judge for further relief. for now, it is a breakthrough for those fbi agents and their families who had their names handed over to the justice department. relief, however temporary, from what was reported to be deep anxiety felt by countless fbi agents. and while there is no guarantee that they'll be protected forever, the imminent threat of having their identities out there has been alleviated, at least for today. it is also a reminder that although our institutions are being challenged in unprecedented ways, they are not without power. they are not without access to the courts. the fbi is an institution with a storied history, not a perfect history, but essential to american life and americans security. so let what happened today be one of our first lesson. when the fbi pushed back

donald trump's justice department was willing to reach a compromise. it remains to be seen if kash patel, the incoming fbi director, will change the fbi beyond recognition. but for now, round one goes to the workforce. the men and women who want to get back to the business of protecting the american people. it's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends with me at. the table, former top official at the department of justice and msnbc legal analyst andrew weissman is here. also joining us, former federal prosecutor, former lawyer with the doj national security division, brendan ballou is here. also joining us is new york times justice department reporter glenn thrush. glenn, we may as well move this forward. what does happen when kash patel gets there? >> well. >> we i should say that that has not yet he has not yet been confirmed. and we're expecting at the earliest, the middle of this month as being a vote on his, on his confirmation.

forgive me. i'm losing my voice. it's been a long week. >> we had we had in the script. we made it to friday and i took it out. and your honor, i should have left it in. we made it to friday. >> i just hope it's not going to be a long weekend. yeah, but i think, curiously enough, i've spoken to some, some people over the past couple of days who have actually said to me, we're looking forward to having kash patel, a guy who has an enemies list and talked about turning into fbi, turning fbi headquarters into a museum, having him on board because he'd be more accountable and have to testify before congress, unlike interim leadership. so i think we're dealing with a situation here in which the department of justice and emil bove, who is the number three person in the justice department, number two person in the justice department right now, has been the prime mover, essentially walked into a bit of an ambush because in

addition to kind of the institutional authority that the fbi still has, there is still that residual power in terms of its hold on the public, because there's a big difference. and i think i said this last time we spoke. big difference between going after the chiefs, the people who made the supervisory decisions about these cases, and individual field agents who were simply doing what they were told to do. so i think part of this, the question here is, and i think more so than kash patel, pam bondi, who has really gone out of her way to portray herself as having a degree of independence from the white house. will pam bondi, the new attorney general, provide sufficient protection for the fbi's workforce that this particular attempt attempt at getting these names, which has already chilled the building, will stop?

>> andrew weissman. >> i think it's really. important to. >> not have. >> the overton window. >> sort. >> of move along where. >> we don't remember how crazy this is. there is no legitimate reason. >> for these names to. >> ever be public. these people. >> whether the field. >> people, the. agents and analysts and staff who worked on the january 6th cases or the senior leadership, they were doing righteous work. >> we have. >> emil bove and now pam bondi, the official attorney general, describing the january. >> 6th prosecutions. >> as a grave national. >> injustice. >> as has donald trump. that is false. >> the people who. >> worked on it were doing something for the public. >> the names of. >> the people. >> who worked on. >> it. to have it ever be public, that that they worked on it to have a target. this

shouldn't be, oh, they. >> have. >> 48 hours to get to court. >> it should never. >> be released. so i just want to make sure people understand how nutty this is. the second part of what is at issue is not just the list, which by the way, now there is that list and there's the fear that somebody is going to leak it against the court order that's in place not to. and so. understand the precariousness for all of the people on that. that's thousands of people who have to worry about that for doing their job for us. and the second part. >> is they're all. >> subject to heightened. scrutiny for employment action. >> how do we know. >> that? emil bove, in his memo says that's the purpose of the list. people who did their job to. to figure out what happened and who's responsible for january. >> 6th. >> cases that. every single judge who has had these cases has said it's righteous. these are people who.

>> are being. >> held to that kind of scrutiny. this is really the inmates running the show. >> could anyone at the fbi investigate a case that the director of the fbi didn't direct them to investigate. >> know everything, if. >> that that would be a firable. >> if you did. >> something that was not approved. now, granted, the director is not approving each and every one, but if you did something that was against the senior leadership and against policy, and that, by the way, that's true whether republican or democratic, whatever the policy is, you have to follow it. there's no question the january 6th cases were righteous. just let's remember, and i've said this in lots of people have pointed this out. these cases were ones that republican leadership in congress were supportive of on the day of and the day after. you keep making the point. ted cruz was saying that mitch mcconnell was saying it, but

also the cases began under the trump administration and trump 1.0. >> i guess i ask that because i'm from the west. so there are all sorts of stories about grizzly bear attacks on our local news. i've never seen a scenario where when the grizzly bear and in this story the grizzly bear is, you know, trump and the maga movements where a parent doesn't, doesn't protect the family from the grizzly bear. why isn't chris wray all over fox news saying, i led the department, no one freelanced. it went out on a case. i made them do it. i called, i made the call that these were crimes worthy of investigating. and i'm not saying it belongs on this show, but why isn't he all over television defending his workforce? >> well. >> you know, that's a great question. and i, you know, the i and you, i think, agree that he should not have stepped down, that it was a sign of that the justice department doesn't have

and the fbi doesn't have the sort of apolitical history per the you know, congress has a ten year term that's supposed to mean that it's regardless of sort of president. and by stepping down, he was really saying that's really on paper only. and each president should just have a new person. that's not the way it's supposed. >> to work. it also leaves the workforce. it leaves an impression that he did something wrong. and so he's going to let it change a policy. there's no policy at the fbi. and you can you can change priorities. there's no there's no. january 6th was a policy priority of chris rea's. but it won't be. i mean, to your point about the overton window, christopher wray walking out sends the clearest signal yet to the to the to the to the american people having any power in this moment. it's that they heard what glenn's talking about, that actual fbi agents who stopped child sex traffickers, who stopped serial killers, who stopped drug cartels, they were screwed because some of them had to go interview january 6th. insurrectionists and their names were on a list. christopher wray

told all of those people to investigate. january 6th. where is he? >> right. so let me just give a shout out to one group of people who have been speaking up, and that is the judges in dc, the judges who are handling the cases. that and again, these are judges that were nominated by republicans, democrats, including trump nominees have all been speaking out. and they in all of the cases that have to be dismissed, per the department of justice order, you have the former chief judge, beryl howell, you have judge chutkan, you have amy berman jackson, just today talking about michael shannon's heroism will never be moot, speaking out about the fact that these cases cannot be whitewashed. and so, you know, what you are seeing is one branch of government really doing what it's supposed to and

being fearless. and i hear your point about other people i just wanted to like and that's a totally legitimate point, but it's worth noting that there are people who are saying this is wrong. >> who did you report to? >> i reported to the section chief of. >> the capitol. >> siege section, and he reported to the. >> u.s. attorney and the u.s. attorney reported. >> to the attorney general. >> and if the attorney general didn't want cases prosecuted against insurrectionists, would the chain of command have done what it did? >> absolutely not. that would. >> have been insurrection. >> within the organization. >> so do you live with a real fear of being targeted and prosecuted? >> you know, there's obviously. >> you. get threats as anybody that's involved in the january 6th cases does. there's sort of the immediate. >> physical danger. >> and i would say. >> you know. i think. >> anybody that's associated. >> with the department. >> of justice is. >> insulated in a. >> lot of ways that. >> you know. >> folks that were.

>> targeted on. >> this campaign. >> completely unrelated to january 6th, are not migrants, trans people. >> and so forth. >> there's the physical risk. >> but i think the more. >> likely risk going forward is politically. motivated investigations and. >> prosecutions. >> not just. >> of the prosecutors, but of the. >> analysts, the special. >> agents over at. >> the fbi who. >> were. >> as you say, literally just doing their jobs. >> what is the degree of resources or or legal defense or i mean, what is available to you as someone who is just doing her job? >> yeah. >> i am encouraged. >> i think. >> that the. >> private bar is really. >> stepping up here. >> maybe not publicly yet, but. >> we've been getting a lot of phone calls from folks that. >> want to. >> be helpful here. >> so i think if. it comes to the point where there are litigations. >> or prosecutions against the prosecutors, investigators and so. >> forth, i think there's. >> going to be a lot of support. i'll also just say. that even talking about these sorts of. things can. >> be helpful in that. >> while i have.

>> little doubt that. >> there are a lot of folks. >> in this administration that would like to. >> bring prosecutions. >> for. those who are involved in. >> the january 6th cases, i think as they start to think through that a little. >> bit more, they're going to. >> realize that those cases are an opportunity to talk. again about what actually happened on january 6th. and i. >> think that. >> ultimately, that might not look as. >> good for the. >> administration as they think. >> say more. >> well, you. >> know, if the. >> if the case is going to be that. >> these. >> were politically. >> motivated prosecutions with the intent. >> of depriving peaceful protesters of their constitutional rights, well. >> then a lot of that case. >> is going to hinge on what. >> were. >> the. >> underlying facts of that day and. >> what. >> were the motivations. >> for bringing. these cases. >> and once you get into that question, you have the opportunity to. bring in a whole lot of video from january 6th showing the danger that that riot, that riot and those rioters posed. >> and again. >> something like that might backfire for this backfire for this administration. here's to getting better with age.

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>> these three. >> multi-billionaires are working with. trump for. >> one very. >> simple reason. they understand that trump's policies are designed. >> to make the very. >> wealthiest people in this country even richer. since trump's election, mr. musk has become. a $154 billion richer. not bad in a couple of weeks time. >> in addition to being the world's richest man who keeps getting richer. as senator sanders says, their elon musk at the moment also seems to be the world's most influential person. the newly minted special government employee with donald trump's praise and constant admiration and fawning, has been whipping through the federal government with his doge team, gutting federal agencies, firing federal employees, and gaining

access to troves of federal government data and materials, all while maintaining his very profitable leadership positions at several private companies. rolling stone points out just how problematic this is. quote. it's nearly impossible for musk to direct any action by doge in washington without potentially affecting one of his businesses. x, formerly twitter, currently faces a lawsuit from the sec that alleges he withheld information about the steak he was acquiring in the company ahead of his bid to purchase it. the department of labor, which could be next on the chopping block for doge, has probed and fined tesla and spacex for unsafe working conditions through the occupational safety and health administration. tesla is also under investigation by the justice department for possible securities and wire fraud related to its unsupported claims about fully autonomous vehicles. but don't worry anyone. caroline leavitt, the white house press secretary,

assured the country yesterday that there will be someone policing elon musk and making sure that all those conflicts of interest are completely avoided. >> the president was already asked and answered this question. >> this week. >> and he said, if. elon musk. >> comes across. >> a conflict of interest with the contracts and the funding that doj's overseeing. then elon will excuse. >> himself from those contracts. >> and he. >> has again abided. >> by all applicable laws. >> elon will excuse himself. they have a plan. these conflicts of interests are though a focus now of united states senator richard blumenthal. he is opening an inquiry into doge, writing to six of musk's companies, including tesla and x, to demand more information. in a statement, senator blumenthal writes this, quote mr. musk's dual roles running a for profit corporation while serving in public office not only create glaring conflicts of interest that pose grave risks for america's most sacred

institutions, but it may also violate federal law. the permanent subcommittee on investigations is conducting a preliminary inquiry into doge, and the ramifications of its conduct. democratic senator richard blumenthal of connecticut. senator, thank you for being here. i know these are busy days. >> busy day, but really delighted to be with you, nicole, because this story ought to make americans angry. that idea that there's accountability for elon musk in the. present system? absolutely not. in fact. donald trump has fired all. >> the inspectors general. who would. >> be able to blow the. >> whistle on conflicts. >> of interest. and that's why i've. >> begun an investigation through. >> the permanent. >> subcommittee on investigation, because. >> there is. >> so much. >> at stake here. and it isn't just privacy, access. >> to information about. >> va payments. >> on disabilities. >> tax refunds. >> all of that personal. >> private information. >> it's also.

>> that elon musk potentially benefits immensely at the expense. >> of his. >> competitors for. >> government contracts and. >> other business, and puts at. >> risk our security. >> cyber security. if there is ever a breach. >> of this information. >> one of the things about elon musk assuming the role of a co-president, well, one of the things is the disappearance of jd vance, but the other is that there wasn't any vetting, there isn't any understanding of his financial entanglements or legal exposure. and i've seen a little bit of reporting about one of the things that usaid was looking into when it comes to one of his companies. i wonder if you will start by looking at what he's burning down fastest, to see if that is an intersection with his business interests. >> we will. >> be looking at, and we've. >> demanded information about what he is collecting by way of information, what he is using it

for, who has access to it. you know, these 20 year. >> olds and 25 year olds. >> probably have no security clearances, but they have. >> access potentially to. >> information that. >> could be a matter of the utmost. >> concern, security. >> concern, if. >> there are any, hacking into the. >> systems that are. >> being used by. >> elon musk to monetize this information. >> so there are. >> vast implications. >> for our nation's. >> security potential. breaches and. >> hacking into those systems, but also monetizing it, using. >> it for. >> the benefit of tesla. or starlink or spacex. >> or neuralink or the boring. >> company. >> and x i. >> which is why we've written to all of. >> them. >> demanding that they give us an accounting and we're going to. >> hold them accountable.

>> for how this information is used to the benefit of elon musk's company. this idea of a. conflict of interest is very abstract. it sounds hypothetical, but elon musk has made money from all of his. government contracts. tesla, billions of dollars spacex tens of billions of dollars. and so we want to know how this information is being used and stored and potentially to the advantage of those companies at the expense of the american taxpayers. >> will the investigation? the investigation, i mean, the public is getting increasingly vocal about this unelected unvetted non senate confirmed, not that that's a real process at this point. individual profiting enormously, as senator bernie sanders said, and gaining access to private information. if your investigation goes perfectly, what what power do

you have to act on its findings? in the minority. >> part of it is name and shame. >> the american people. are angry, i hope, now, but they're going to be furious when they learn the truth about how elon musk is personally benefiting. from this access. >> and you know, nicole, it would be one thing if. >> we had some disinterested, impartial, objective business person, highly successful, looking at ways to. >> make our government. >> more efficient and save money. that's not what's happening here. elon musk is. doing a power grab and an information heist, the biggest in american history. >> what will happen when the trump administration's efforts to dismantle usaid comes to fruition? what happens next is that when people will care about what this agency does, how the millions of american workers

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leading strategists like us. when you want to invest with more confidence... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management mistake that donald trump is kneecapping america's global standing around the world. by gutting this organization, it has saved countless lives. it increases goodwill around the world. and perhaps most importantly, it counters adversaries like russia and china and keeps them from gaining more influence and power throughout the world. so what trump and musk are doing with the republicans cheering them on, and those over at fox news is to gut the program in the name of saving less than 1% of the federal budget. here's how former usaid administrator samantha power described it. >> american strength. >> resides in the goodwill we. >> buy. >> but also our. >> security resides in our

ability to. >> squash that. >> ebola outbreak. in uganda, to make sure. >> that those flights that. come from. >> kampala don't. >> contain people with. >> ebola who. >> bring that disease elsewhere. so they root against america, they root against democracy. therefore. they root against u.s. aid and are thrilled that it's the united states government itself that is taking this agency off the field. but the. >> other. >> reason they're cheering is that usaid does really important democracy work, really important anti-corruption work, supporting independent journalists, training. >> them to make sure. >> that they can go out and about and. cast sunlight on what is going on in those countries. >> joining our coverage, andrew natsios, he was the administrator for usaid during the george w bush administration. he's now an executive professor at texas a&m university. andrew, i wonder if you could just take us through what people, what people don't understand about how nonpartisan

usaid mission is? >> well, any agency or department. >> of the. federal government follows the lead. >> of the white house. so the. >> fox news and other. >> groups are attacking. >> aid for having some social cultural programs, the. >> culture wars. >> that's ordered. >> by the white house, any. >> white house. we had conservative. >> programs when i. >> was administrator and. >> when mark green. >> was administrator. >> and the. bush administration, the trump administration, the first one. >> and when the democrats take they move it left of center. and the career people didn't resist when i was there. and i probably the most conservative administrator in the history of the agency, they showed me how to do it. i trusted them, i treated them respectfully. and they said, if you do it this way, you're going to. >> get. >> into trouble. if you do it this way, it's going to work. i reviewed every single program from the clinton administration when i took over in 2001, and i ended dozens of programs, and i redirected toward our priorities. that took a month.

we did it quietly. the career people caught a lot of the clinton programs dogs because they didn't work. and they were they didn't even like them, but they they quietly implemented what they under the clinton years, what. they were told to do. and they do the same thing. when i was in office. i the notion that aid is not following the foreign policy, of course it isn't. there's no aid administration. they haven't appointed any people from the republican party to run aid under trump. so of course it. >> hasn't moved. >> toward their foreign policy. they just took office three weeks ago. it takes a few months, you know, to move any agency or department. but i might add one last thing. the fact is that the state department in the f office controls every single dollar aid spends. that's what the office was created for. and they've done that for 20 years now. it's not new, and i might add, who controls the appropriation? the congress does and omb does, which is controlled by the white

house. aid doesn't run out and does do whatever they want. every single dollar in the aid budget is already earmarked. we don't have a lot of choice. and i might add, there's a federal index of how well managed agencies are. it's a nonpartisan group, independent on purely a technical basis. aid is ranked as the third best managed federal agency in the united states government. the notion that the agency are criminals and all that, that's a lot of garbage. it's a it's a lie. it's an insult. and what they do keep doing, if you if you repeat a lie long enough, people will begin to believe it. and i speak as a conservative republican. i worked as a vice president for world vision, the largest evangelical ngo in the world. i served for 22 years in the army reserves. i retired as a lieutenant colonel. i served in the first gulf war. i am not on the left. >> i feel like there's more in

there. i'm going to ask you to say more about why you think it was targeted by elon musk and donald trump. >> it was targeted because the immediate beneficiaries, the long term beneficiaries, like the american people, they don't realize it, but they are. it protects the united states. the reason that they targeted is it has a relatively weak constituency because the beneficiaries are in the global south. you don't see the programs. if you saw the programs, there'd be no one in the congress voting against it. i know some far right wing, very conservative senators and congressmen who are republicans went to the south with with democrat and republican administrations. they came back saying, i'm not going to oppose this anymore. i'm with this. chris wallace went with aid to ukraine, said, i've never been a fan of foreign aid. he came back and said, i'll never criticize it again. i saw what they're doing. it's astonishing. i took i took some prominent conservatives to afghanistan, and they came back and said the

same thing, including rush limbaugh. and he said that publicly in his own program. when they see the programs, they support it. the reason that they went after them is that we constituency, they wanted to make an example and show that they can they're in charge, they're in power, and they can crush our programs and our agency. and the consequence for the american people is we don't have an early warning system for disease anymore. there are 90 missions, 90 countries that have early warning systems that are installed over the last couple of decades for disease outbreaks. we're not going to have that anymore. it's going to disappear. it's already shut down now. it's in my view, this is an enormous risk for the united states. you know what happens when famines take place? people start moving and mass. if we shut down the emergency programs and aid, which is what's happened, we are going to have famines across the globe and guess where they're going to end up in europe and the united states. the people, when they

start panicking, they start moving. and almost every famine that's taken place in the last 50 years, it's and we're going to we're going to pay the price later on. >> let me ask you one more question. you touched on this. the workforce at usaid, did you? i was in the bush administration, and i remember condi rice as only she could do with her swagger, you know, walking in and demanding more funds for usaid because of the importance of the mission. and i remember george w bush rarely saying no to usaid or to you or condi rice, but i, i wonder if you could just tell me what the workforce was like when you turned this agency so conservative compared to the administration from which you took it over? >> we had 1200 foreign service officers and 1200 civil servants. we had about 6500,

7500 foreign service nationals. there are people who come from the country itself. they're not americans here. they live in the in the they work in the aid mission, many of them for a long time. that is a training ground for local leaders. for example, the first woman prime minister in costa rica was a usaid foreign service national for ten years. the first woman vice president of el salvador was an fsn. the first lady of peru under a conservative president, was an fsn, and her husband got a phd with an aid scholarship. i can go around the world. i can do it for a whole hour and tell you how the aid missions, in fact, were the base for training people who went on to become leaders in their country. they're pro-american. you know what's happening now? all that's going to shut down. you know, we used to give 20,000 scholarships a year in aid to people from the developing world. they go back

and they change their countries. you know how much the chinese, how many scholarships they're doing, $40,000, double what we did during the cold war. and they're coming back speaking mandarin and the united states is just retreating from the battlefield. we've lost the first battle with the chinese and the russians, not by losing because our programs aren't there, but because we're leaving. it's disgusting. it's outrageous. it's a it's an egregious affront to the egregious affront to the american people. baby: liberty! mom: liberty mutual is all she talks about since we saved hundreds by bundling our home and auto insurance. baby: liberty! biberty: hey kid, it's pronounced "biberty." baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: bi-be-rty! baby: biberty! biberty: and now she's mocking me. very mature. mom: hey, that's enough you two! biberty: hey, i'm not the one acting like a total baby. mom: she's two. only pay for what you need ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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rachel maddow show weeknights at 9:00 on msnbc. >> it should be a simple question, especially here. and it should have a simple answer. who is in charge, really, of our federal government right now? who republicans wil swear up and down it's donald trump of gaza as a riviera fame, not the man he deputized to strip the federal government down to its studs, not the man armed with the private data now of american citizens. in fact, as trump has suggested publicly, aides have signaled behind the scenes to nbc news that elon musk is still a staffer and needs to report to white house chief of staff siouxsie wiles, and yet, not even trump himself is as immune to scrutiny as elon musk right now. democrats on the house oversight committee tried to subpoena the world's richest man for information on his government takeover. here's how that went.

>> i think it's outrageous. >> that this committee will not even. entertain a motion. >> no, you state your chairman. that's not a point of order. >> i a. >> point of order. >> are. >> federal agents. you're out of order. >> oh. >> that. >> was a demagogue. >> out of order! >> you will not. >> out of order. >> and out of order. >> a motion to. >> this is demagoguery. >> this is. >> as are in. >> favor of tabling. >> yes. >> let's have. >> order in this country. >> you're out of order. you know you're out of order. you know the rules of this committee. >> that's what fear of elon musk sounds like. joining our coverage, managing editor of lawfare, tyler mcbrien is here. and joining us here at the table. my friend and colleague, msnbc anchor alex wagner, host of the new podcast trumpland. she's been reporting from washington this week and talking to federal workers targeted by musk and his aides. what did you learn? >> first of all, i think the vengeance with which this is being taken out should not be

understated. >> i was. >> talking. >> to some. >> of the folks who worked at usaid, in particular a woman named christina drye, who is the now one of the now former spokespeople there, and the absolute disregard for not just the people who work in the federal government, but the people they then serve the american public, but also the global community. we have national security interests in doing this work. let's just put that out there. in addition to the humanitarian aid, there are scores thousands, hundreds of thousands of people who are in real need who have no idea what america is doing. i want to play you a little bit of my interview with her, where she gives us kind of a sense of the chaos that's unfolding behind these walls. >> in addition to the us aid folks. >> that are losing their. >> jobs without being. >> able to plan or even put in two. >> weeks, everyone in the development. >> sector that i. >> know is just sitting here going, what do we do? >> what's next? how do we continue to help the people. we're helping? because ultimately, you know, i'm probably losing my job. most

people here have. and what we really care most about is the people we're serving. and we also have no communication with them because we can't communicate with our liaisons through our systems. we can't retrieve anything. and again, it's word of mouth. so they might not know that we're we're engaging. so everyone is very confused, very slipshod and very chaotic. >> they can't get emails finding out whether they've been fired or not. right. people are working in the dark without access to their contact lists, without access to each other. and then the work itself is, you know, around the globe. this isn't because elon musk doesn't know how to run the federal government or dismantle it. this is because he doesn't care. this is because he wants to punish this people. these people, as russell vote, who's now the head of the omb, said, we want to traumatize these people. that is exactly what they are doing. >> can i ask you why? why are they so mad at usaid? >> i think so, christina, the woman that we just played some sound from, told me that one of the first things they did was

take down all the photographs in the usaid office that showed the humanitarian and development projects that they have around the world and the people affected by them. right. and that was so indicative, i think, of the of the vengeful nature of all this, that the own the libs sort of sentiment that i think is at the core of this, which was the same sentiment elon musk held when he bought twitter. right. we're going to turn this into a right wing mouthpiece. we're going to take this away from you. the idea of these sort of touchy feely liberals doing global, you know, aid work is something elon musk wants to stamp out. he wants to crush them. it's not just because he thinks it's a sprawling bureaucracy that the american taxpayer should be paying for. and that's being, you know, generous. it's because he wants to crush the do gooders. he wants to crush the people who have the big hearts, the bleeding liberals, i mean, and one of the ways you do that is by taking away the evidence of their good works, which is why all the photographs are gone and they're just empty frames hanging on the wall of usaid. it's insane. >> it's bizarre. tyler, take us through your exquisitely crafted

piece today. >> well, first of all, nicole, thanks. >> for having me. and it's great. >> to. >> join you. as well. alex, the. >> reason why i wrote. >> this. >> piece is. >> because of the. >> very question that you asked at the top of the segment, who is running the federal government? i like all. >> of the viewers. >> watching, was. constantly getting push notifications. that complicated the answer to what i thought should be a very uncomplicated question, which is should be our democratic, democratically. >> elected leaders. >> and as. >> i. >> was thinking through. >> this question. >> it. >> reminded me a lot of my time in south africa in 2015. >> and 2016. >> they went through their own experience of what was called what is called state capture, and i felt like it was important not to downplay what's happening as as simple run of the mill pay to play corruption, but it's actually something wider and more severe, which is, as i said, state capture. and what that describes is, is, is the capture of the entire government apparatus to direct its

resources. toward mostly private interests who are close to the president. and so i wanted to put that on the table and sort of raise the alarms and raise that question of, you know, what are we actually seeing here? and is it is it more than corruption? >> let me read from it. you write this, the details vary by context. but the political scientist elizabeth david barrett lays out three general mechanisms of state capture. they now sound familiar shaping the rules of the game through law and policy, influencing administrative decisions by capturing the budget, appointments, government contracts and regulatory decisions, and disabling checks on power by dismantling accountability structures like the judiciary, law enforcement and prosecution, and audit institutions like the inspectors general and the media. i guess what's amazing to me, tyler, is how quickly they've they've zipped through that list. >> it's true. i want to caveat the similarities by saying that

there. is something of an anna karenina principle here, that the famous line that all. happy families are happy in the same way, but all unhappy families are unhappy in their own way, is certainly varies by context, and i think that's an important part of the story, speed being one of them. what's happening in the united states is unfolding much more quickly than what happened in south africa. but the reason why i thought state capture was such an apt label to slap on what's happening is, is that especially that third mechanism you pointed out, state capture not only describes what's happening, but but how it happens, how elites are able to take power and maintain it. the third mechanism being key to that. so it's as as you said, it's disabling checks on power by dismantling these accountability mechanisms, not only in government. so those include, of course, the inspectors general, another monitoring and oversight bodies, but also institutions outside of government, the media and other other forms. and so it was that that reason why it's so

pernicious and so difficult to uproot once state capture takes hold. >> thank you so much for watching deadline white house weekend. be sure to join us weekdays at 4 p.m. eastern for weekdays at 4 p.m. eastern for deadline white house on msnbc. when migraine strikes... do you question the tradeoffs of treating? ubrelvy is another option. it works fast, and most have migraine pain relief within two hours. you can treat it anytime, anywhere. tell your doctor all medicines you take. don't take... ...with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors. get help right away for allergic reactions like trouble breathing or face, tongue, or throat swelling, which may occur hours to days after use. common side effects include nausea and sleepiness. migraine pain relief starts with you. learn how abbvie could help you save on ubrelvy. here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need, and the flavor you love. so, here's to now... now available: boost max!

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>> that's one. >> (800) 403-7539. >> good evening. >> and welcome. >> to politics nation. >> tonight's lead. >> the