>> okay? as you all know, donald trump has never exactly been shy about his contempt for the idea that we have three co-equal branches of government, something you learn when you're in elementary school. but in his view, all power ultimately rests with the person sitting behind the resolute desk, and especially if that person is him. of course, we got a glimpse of his thinking during his first administration, when he claimed that article two of the constitution gives him, quote, the right to do whatever he wants as president, it does not grant that. and during the 2024 campaign, he surrounded himself with people who advocated for some pretty extreme views of presidential power. chief among

them was the guy now serving as his vice president, jd vance, who floated this piece of advice back in 2021. >> i think. >> that what trump should do, like if i was giving. >> him. >> one piece. >> of advice, fire every single mid-level bureaucrat, every civil servant in the administrative state, replace. them with our people. >> and when the courts. >> because. >> you will get taken to court. and when the courts stop. you stand before. >> the country. >> like andrew. >> jackson did. >> and say the chief. >> justice has made his ruling. now let him enforce it. >> i mean, in other words, we can't say they didn't warn us everyone. he was sort of warning us there, i guess. and so just a few weeks into this new administration, three to be exact, we are quickly seeing what it is like to have a president who is willing to simply ignore the law when it suits him. we saw that as trump tried to unilaterally revoke the bedrock principle of birthright citizenship, freeze spending that is constitutionally appropriated by the legislative branch, shut down agencies that were legally created by congress, and fire career civil

servants who are protected by the law. i mean, the goal here of all of that is to steamroll a system that, again, is based on three co-equal branches of government. and with a congress controlled by a republican party that donald trump owns, that's the legislative branch, the only branch left to check his executive powers is the judiciary. and on that front, there is a lot they are trying to keep up with almost too much some days. i mean, just today, a federal judge in massachusetts heard arguments on the legality of the trump administration's unprecedented buyout program designed to coerce federal workers to leave their jobs. another federal judge blocked trump's executive order to ignore the constitution and end birthright citizenship, the third judge to do so. another federal judge halted the administration's cuts to the national institutes of health and the head of the office of special counsel, an independent federal ethics agency, sued trump, alleging he was unlawfully fired. again. everything i just went through, all of that happened today. stay

with me now, because on friday, a federal judge ordered the trump administration to stop some aspects of its attempts to shut down usaid. then on saturday, a federal judge temporarily blocked elon musk's doge crew from accessing sensitive treasury department payment systems. the judge in that case cited, quote, the risk that the new policy presents of the disclosure of sensitive and confidential information and the heightened risk that the systems in question will be more vulnerable than before to hacking, seems like a fairly reasonable concern to me. and yet that was the decision that basically set maga world's hair on fire. republican senator tom cotton called the judge an outlaw who should be forbidden from hearing any more cases against trump. utah senator mike lee said the decision had the feel of a judicial coup, to which, by the way, elon musk responded yes. and musk also reposted a message suggesting that he and trump should defy the court's order. and then trump's own vice president. the

guy you just saw a few minutes ago in that clip from 2021 came in with this. and i quote, judges aren't allowed to control the executive's legitimate power. now, the word legitimate is doing a whole lot of work in that statement. as yale law school grad jd vance should know, and i suspect he does know. i mean, courts do make those decisions. it's literally the role of the judicial branch to determine what is legitimate and what is not, what is illegal and what is not. that's literally their job. now, donald trump is not a graduate of yale law school or of any law school for that matter. but he does agree that this judge should not be allowed to stop him. >> when a president can't look for fraud and waste and abuse, we don't have a country anymore. so we're very disappointed with the judges that would make such a ruling. no judge should, frankly, be allowed to make that kind of a decision is a disgrace. >> guys. they are not being subtle at all. and as we watch those comments from trump and vance and their allies in congress over the weekend, it

was clear that they were laying the groundwork to openly defy court orders. and today a judge said they already have. today, a federal judge ruled that the trump administration has been violating a previous court order to lift the blanket spending freeze on federal grant programs. to put it plainly, the trump administration froze spending. a judge told them to unfreeze it. and according to this judge, they didn't. and that kind of puts us in unchartered territory. in fact, some democrats and legal experts say it leaves us smack dab in the middle of what they're calling a constitutional crisis. and look, i know phrases like that can sometimes sound vague and abstract and academic, but as i said, this country relies on a system of checks and balances between three co-equal branches of government for good reason. so when the trump administration ignores that principle, when it defies the judiciary and dares the courts to enforce their orders, it is threatening the constitution itself. hence a constitutional crisis. starting us off tonight is retired federal judge nancy

gertner. after retiring from the federal bench, she became a professor at harvard law school. judge gertner, thank you so much for taking the time. you're the perfect person to help us make sense of what is happening here. so let me just start with what we saw today, because for the first time, we saw a federal judge accused the trump administration of defying a court order. and the judge said the white house has not complied with an order to release federal funding that it had frozen. i just want to pause on that because it feels to me i'm not a lawyer. i'm certainly not a judge. feels very significant to me. but you were a federal judge. what do you think? >> i think it is significant, but the your, your, your introduction was suggesting that there there's something very, you know, academic about it. and it's really very, very straightforward here. >> trump a. >> constitutional crisis. >> to do all of this. yeah. he had a lawful way to do all of this. he has the congress. there are steps that are that one can follow. there are rules to be

followed. and all he did is completely ignore that and ignored his own congress, which is really something that should give all of us pause and issue these executive orders, which dahlia lithwick describes as like letters to santa. they were badly drafted, and half the time, you know, he didn't have the authority to do it. when a federal judge issues an order, the federal judge is making a determination for a preliminary order that there's a likelihood of success on the merits. so it has to be a strong case. judges don't do this out of the air. and furthermore, that there has to be irreparable harm. and the notion that judges across the country have done this is really should give this government pause, that they have done what they've done is not just mildly illegal, but very, very illegal. and judges have recognized that. to your point about this comment about, you know, how federal judges have no business dealing with legitimate executive

actions, as you said, legitimate is the point here. what they are doing isn't isn't even close to legitimate. >> yeah. >> they defy it. >> that's the question. i mean, first of all, it is literally their job. this is yeah. well, let me ask you this question because on the defy it, because this judge began this order by citing a supreme court case that says people who defy orders like this risk being held in criminal contempt. and we went through kind of a version of this last year. what does that look like and what can it look like for a sitting president and a sitting administration? >> well, i mean, it could look like a range of things. it could look like fines. it's a little hard to imagine that elon musk will be deterred by a fine, but there could be fines. you could be civil contempt would be you could be jailed until you have remedied the situation, you know, but no one ever gets to that. and as i said, particularly here, where the

illegality is really clear, there is no question about it, the if they don't like these these rulings, they can appeal. and trump certainly knows how to do that. so the notion that they would be violating. so there were processes to follow in order to do what he wanted to do. and he's basically blowing through that. in addition, if there are rulings that he doesn't like, he can appeal the notion that he would just defy says something very troubling about this president and his administration. >> no. no question. and he obviously hasn't appealed it. as you said, that is a legitimate process that anyone can go through or approach. if he appeals that a lot of people throw out this notion that this this question about executive power could go to the supreme court, and that's where it could land. i don't know if you agree with that, but what do you think? i think there's a lot of skepticism, probably among a lot of people watching, that the six three conservative court would rule the right way. what what are you watching for and how do you think they would look at

this question? >> well. >> there's a structural problem, which is that the supreme court is not equipped to deal with the 45 cases that are percolating through the court. right. they'll take 1 or 2. they'll take maybe one, you know, and they'll take birthright citizenship. they may take the impoundment cases again with this administration and with this court. i'm not sure i can predict anything, but it would really be extraordinary if they gave him the power that he is seeking. it would be it would just be extraordinary on both birthright citizenship and on the impoundment question. i've been surprised by this court, but still, that would be that would be essentially enabling a coup. it's not a judicial coup that we're seeing. it's an executive coup. and if the supreme court went along with it, they would be enabling that as well. >> it's a really important way to look at it. let me start with where you kind of started, because i mentioned constitutional crisis sounds academic to people, not not the legal processes or the judicial process, but the term sounds like an academic term when we

say constitutional crisis and senators say it, what does it mean in plain english for people who are trying to understand what that means? and they hear the term being thrown out. >> it means that the that the president is defying the other two branches. so he's already defied the congress. congress has a role in the appropriation process. congress has a role in setting up these agencies that he is essentially tearing down. he can't simply ignore congress. neither can he ignore the court. and what the constitutional crisis means is that the branches that are supposed to curb his power, that are supposed to be checks and balances, he's just ignoring them. he in a way that we really have never seen by any other president since the founding, there have been issues with, with respect to this or that order, but this is a sustained attack, it seems to me, on the

legislative branch, and hopefully it won't be a sustained attack on the judicial branch. but i'm not holding my breath. >> i guess none of us are. let me ask you before i let you go. i mean, judges do speak through their filings. judges are incredible writers. you know what they're thinking. but do you think federal judges in this country should be more vocal in this moment about what they're seeing the administration do? >> i think so? i mean, as i said, i think this is an extraordinary moment. i wrote about what the federal judges that were asked to dismiss the various january 6th cases did. and it was very interesting because they had no choice. that was the situation. they had no choice but to dismiss. if the prosecutor says we don't want to go forward, or if the government or the president says we're pardoning these people, there is no choice but to dismiss. but judge after judge says, i want you to know what i saw in this case. and there are transcripts and there are writings and there are videos that showed that

showed us what the assault on the capitol had looked like. they didn't have to say that they could have just walked out there and said aloud and left the bench, but they understood that it is a public function, and the public has to know, has to understand what they're doing, allow denied. you know, a writing allowed denied is not sufficient. and i think that you're seeing that in these cases as well. i can't repeat enough to get a preliminary injunction. the distance between what the government is doing and what is lawful has to be pretty wide. so there's a really there's a clarity about these cases which these judges are reflecting. >> judge nancy gertner, thank you so much. it was a real pleasure talking with you. i really appreciate you joining us tonight. before we go to break, i just want to give you all a quick reminder to subscribe to our new podcast. it's out today. it's called the blueprint. it's a place for me and my guests to explore how democrats can win again in the age of trump. the first two episodes dropped this morning, with maryland governor

wes moore and jfk's grandson, jack schlossberg. we're going to keep this qr code in the corner of the screen all hour long, which you can scan to subscribe. and coming up after the break, right after a federal judge blocked elon musk's crew from accessing a critical treasury department payment system, we got news that they've now made their way inside the state department. senator ron wyden is the ranking democrat on the finance committee. he has been leading the charge against musk and his minions in the senate. and he joins me in just 60s. >> net credit is here to say. >> yes. >> even when other lenders. won't apply online in minutes and get funds deposited the next business day or sooner. >> yes. net credit. >> credit to the people. >> look at this one under-eye bag. it's gone. >> there's this side. and this side. >> have you. >> seen these videos all over. >> social media and said. >> to. >> yourself, how. >> is that real? it's called plexaderm. and plexaderm is

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fishy sounding there, everyone. but the point is that their meddling has been so pervasive and so illegal that it's hard for the public and even the courts to keep up. i mean, sure, a federal judge rightfully blocked musk's doge crew from the treasury department's central payment system, but we still don't really know what they were actually doing during the time they had unfettered access, or what they have done with the information they had access to. as one cybersecurity expert told the new york times, their raid on the treasury department represents the most consequential security breach in american history. that's how he described it. and right after the doge crew was kicked out of treasury, they were given access to the state department. we learned today that musk's teenage henchman, edward kirstein, is now posted to the department's bureau of diplomatic technology. he'd like to be known by his juvenile online pseudonym. it's online, you can scan the screen, but he's better known for being busted in a previous job for leaking company secrets, not a lie. that is the truth. as the washington post reports, officials now worry that his position might give him a foothold for obtaining

unauthorized access to classified material and obtain compromising information on other countries and foreign activities. joining me now is democratic senator ron wyden of oregon. he's the ranking democrat on the senate finance committee, and he also sits on the senate intelligence committee. senator, thank you so much for being here. you've been very busy. i just want to start with new evidence regarding elon musk's doge team accessing sensitive federal data, because i think a lot of people sitting at home are wondering what they're doing with this. what should we know? where is this information? and you wired reported that mr. musk team has claimed they had read only access to treasury materials. that's key. but reporting from wired states, at least one musk aligned official had the ability to change the code of the treasury's payment system, which also feels important to me. you've called on the treasury secretary to come clean about musk's infiltration, because we all have all these questions. have you gotten a straight answer or learned anything? >> we haven't gotten. >> a straight. >> answer, and i'm convinced this read only matter. jen is

just a blatant lie. >> later reporting. >> showed that, in effect. >> the. >> henchmen, the. musk henchmen were going in. >> there to cut off. >> payments they didn't like. and the reality is. is musk is about subverting the constitution. he's already got. >> access to. >> social security, financial data, health data, you. >> name it. >> and i think people need to know. that these are the elements. >> of a coup. >> there was so much you just said there, and you just i mean, which is let me just start with the first thing you said, which is that you think they're lying about what they had access to and what kind of access. >> we got. >> extensive reporting that showed that this wasn't just a garden variety examination of files or film or something like that. this was an attempt to go. after payments. they don't like anybody who thinks that these are just routine kind of audits from. the get go. >> they removed. >> the official. who had been at

treasury. for what amounts to eons. yeah, and. >> very well respected. >> very well respected, and by the way. >> respected on. >> both sides of the aisle. and they took him out because they wanted somebody who was completely compliant. >> just yesterday, the trump administration argued that courts cannot block musk's doge team from accessing the treasury department's payment system, saying the order impinged on the president's absolute powers over the executive branch. that feels not accurate. but do you have you said they were lying about access? do you think they're going to actually comply with the judge's order? >> this is gobsmacking stuff, jen. i mean, the reality is this. >> is. >> rewriting the constitution. i mean, you know, we have congress writing laws, we have the executive branch executing laws, and they're just making it up as they go. in fact. i think you talked with some of our folks about the treasury secretary today. >> i mean, the five treasury. >> they wrote. >> an opinion piece in case people haven't seen. >> it, and they basically said that our system is under siege, which is what i started saying

at the beginning when we found out that the treasury secretary had given the keys. >> to. >> trump, to a musk. >> yeah. one of the points they made, and i'm so grateful you raised that, is basically that our democracy is under threat here. and part of it, as i read it, is that this is something that needs to be resolved in the short term. but they could this could all have a long term impact. if this isn't resolved, then having access. >> this is setting precedent every single day. if everybody just looks the other way. you keep chipping. away at the constitution and you do. >> enormous damage, which is what. >> the treasury secretary said today. >> as i started saying that there's a bit of a whack a mole game here. >> good characterization. >> because we're all just trying to keep track. you're trying to keep track and keep them accountable. you've also launched a probe into doj's interference with the department of education, including its access to sensitive student loan data, which is just completely outrageous. talk to us a little bit about what you're concerned about here. what are the potential risks of a security breach if people gaining access to that information?

>> well, and. >> a lot. >> of these systems are not exactly the most current. and you go in there, you can mess up files and do permanent damage. and that's. what we're trying to really show people is on the line here. this is not something that's an abstract situation. this is the prospect. of going. >> in with old. >> systems and causing immense damage. >> senator ron wyden, i know people watching are grateful to see that there is some action, some investigations. >> wait till you see. >> what we. >> do with the whistleblowers. >> well, we'll be we'll be staying tuned to that. thank you so much for joining me. thank you. appreciate it. coming up, democrats have been pushing back against the trump administration in the courts and in the streets, as we've been talking about. and now some lawmakers are considering taking things a step further. dnc vice chair malcolm kenyatta and congresswoman jasmine crockett are standing by. and they joined me here at the table after a very quick break. >> home, where. >> routine meets remarkable with unexpected moments of inspiration around every corner

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fund the government by march 14th, which is just a few weeks away. and if republicans can't all agree on a spending bill by then, they will need democrats to help pass it. in all likelihood, they will. and right now, some democrats seem willing to use that leverage and force a shutdown if they have to. >> i cannot support efforts that. >> will continue. >> this lawlessness. >> that we're. >> seeing when it comes to this administration's. >> actions. >> and for us to. >> be. >> able to support government funding in that way. only for them to turn it around to dismantle the. >> government, that. >> is. >> not something that should be allowed. >> the strategy is to do whatever we can to stop. >> donald trump. >> from hurting americans, for making us less safe, less secure, and from raising our costs. we will look at every single tool in our toolbox. >> joining me now at the table is democratic congressman jasmine crockett of texas, and the newly elected vice chair of the democratic national committee, malcolm kenyatta. and i really wanted to talk to you two today because i think a lot of people out there are like, what are democrats doing? what

can we get excited about? we need some fire in the belly. you both have fire in the belly. so thank you for being here. congressman. let me start with you. what do you think there's this question about what leverage you have to be really creative. there's only so much leverage, different kinds of leverage you can use in the minority. what do you think about this notion of threatening a government shutdown? and how far do you think it should go? >> yeah. so i don't think that this is really a threat of a government shutdown. here's the reality. they believe that they have a mandate. they believe that this little itty bitty win that they had, where this is a slimmer majority in the house than they had when i swore in they believe winning over the senate. they believe winning the white house, that they have a mandate. and listen, my policies don't align with that mandate. so if you believe that this is what the american people want, then get it done. all of y'all, because y'all have a trump trifecta. but don't come to us for me to do things like tear my community apart by making sure that we get rid of the department of education, by making sure that elon musk somehow and his little cronies.

and just to be clear, if you're talking about somebody sent me a meme today and it said if elon musk was really serious about cutting out waste, then why wouldn't he go get a bunch of accountants? instead, he went and got computer programmers. that tells you what this is. it's a nefarious thing that they're up to, and we know that we are probably going to have difficulty with them complying with the law. but right now we know that in the house they're going to have 217 to 215. what that means for everybody sitting at home is that they literally cannot lose one vote. so go be great. >> go be great. so i ask about the government. you're right. there's no up or down vote. should we shut the government down as people are talking about this? so to be totally clear. but i think it is one of those things with that narrow vote where democrats don't have to give in to what they don't agree to. right. so i guess it's should it be a point of leverage for all the things you're talking about? >> i mean, it's the only way that we were able to govern at all in the 118th. now, granted,

there are those 117th. most people argue. listen, y'all weren't getting anything done. and we know that it was the most unproductive session that we've ever had. but when we look at things like the continuing resolution, where we were trying to continue to keep the government open until march 14th, this next deadline, we know that ellen sent out a tweet and all of a sudden, an agreement that was made by duly elected folk in the house and the senate, as well as the duly elected president, all of a sudden went up in smoke. and so we can't govern that way. and so there's a lack of trust. i mean, you know, this obviously we both came from the state house. we know that the only thing that we have that is considered currency, when you are a lawmaker. >> you give your word. >> right is your word. >> when you give your word, and i and i will say state legislators make the best legislators while they end up in congress. >> well, there you go. do you have an announcement for us today? i'm just. >> kidding, i do not. >> my announcement is i'm vice chair of the. >> democratic party. >> let me ask you about that, because and i mentioned this

because i think it's important for people to understand like what levers of power you have and what you don't. right. and obviously people out there watching, they can put democrats in charge of the house in november. we'll see. but you. >> are going to do. >> that. >> by the way. yeah. there you go. well, you're the vice chair of the party. you're also a legislator, a state legislator. when you're seeing what's happening in washington, what do you wish was happening here? what leverage do you wish democrats were using? >> well, you know what? i think it's really, you know, important that that we're that we're both here today because, you know, the dnc has a really critical role. politics. everything in politics is about math. congresswoman crockett is talking about the math to keep the government open and to continue to fund critical operations. what we're focused on at the dnc is the math of making hakeem jeffries the next speaker of the house over the last couple of days, whatever it's been since this guy got got sworn in, we have seen a reverse robin hood where we are led, where we're supposed to believe that the wealthiest man in the world is rooting around in our government systems to make life better for the people who live in my district, folks who are

one car payment away, one home repair away from losing the safety and security that we all deserve. that is what we're supposed to believe. clearly it's bs. it's nonsense. donald trump has spent every single day since he's been in office, making life worse for working people and working families. and so the question that folks have to ask is, what are folks going to do in this moment? and i think that there's a lot that people can do. and what we've been talking about at the dnc, under the leadership of our new chair, chairman martin, is getting people to look local. there's people who want to tell you, and it's a big part of their strategy to get you so worn out, so worn down to say, hey, if you go to that local protest, what the hell does that matter? if you call your member of congress, that doesn't make an impact. everything you do makes an impact. but people should recognize that everything that matters in the world is not happening here in dc. it was in

state capitals where they were gerrymandering maps and making it more difficult to vote. it was at your local school district where they were banning books and trying to rip away our history. and so what we are going to be doing at the dnc, first and foremost, we talked a little bit about this is also telling our own story, not allowing who the democratic party is to be dictated by some editorial board of a newspaper owned by a different billionaire. we're going to tell our own story, and we're doing that with what you've been seeing on our social media every single day, putting out what if democrats done today? so if you follow us on social media, you'll see that. >> yeah. >> that's right a good follow. okay. before i let you go with the minute we have left, what's one thing you hope people watching pay attention to that republicans are doing that maybe isn't getting enough attention? i'm gonna ask you the same question about something. >> happening so really quick. i'm just going to let everyone know that we do have our first doge subcommittee hearing this week. so tune in to c-span. i'm sure i'm sure. >> someone will. >> be there. but i also want to point out, because you brought up elon musk, i want to point out that musk currently is

getting billions of dollars in government contracts, and we've not heard about him cutting any of that. and that's coming from defense. defense currently comprises approximately 16% of our budget, yet nobody's looking at it. department of education is less than 1%. it literally doesn't even register when we talk about u.s. aid, it's 1.1%. so they're over here playing with you. they're playing in your face, trying to say, go look at this penny over here and ignore the other 99 pennies that we got over here. and that's what i want the american people to wake up and see their plan in your face. and i'm going to make sure that you know exactly how bad they plan in your face. >> that is a very good one. okay, we have to wrap it up. unfortunately, we're going to have to have you guys back. >> hey, i'll be back and listen, i'll tell people get engaged locally in the democratic party. we are here, we are ready to fight, and we're going to get some big things. >> done and follow you on social media and watch you at the subcommittee for the doge hearing, congresswoman jasmine crockett and dnc vice chair. you're very busy, malcolm kenyatta. thank you both so much. and coming up, yes or no? was january 6th an inside job?

yes or no? was the 2020 election stolen? apparently those are real questions you can expect to be asked if you're interviewing for a national security position in the trump administration. and no, this is not normal. i'll explain it all after a quick break. >> look at this one under-eye bag. it's gone. >> there's this. >> side and. this side. >> have you. >> seen these videos all over social. >> media and said. to yourself. >> how is that real? it's called plexaderm. and plexaderm is clinically studied. >> to. >> help reduce the appearance of under-eye puffiness, wrinkles and fine lines, with. >> results that. >> last up to ten hours. so try plexaderm this valentine's day for just $14.95. visit plexaderm. trial.com. >> some things are just better at home. like picking out new floors. >> for a. >> limited time. step into savings with up. to 40% off your entire project. saving on new floors is just better at home. call or visit empire. today.com for your free in-home

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brand new reporting about the loyalty tests his administration is using for candidates at our intelligence and law enforcement agencies. and these tests are not just for political appointees, but for career civil servants. this is from the post reporting, quote, two individuals, both former officials, who were being considered for positions within the intelligence community were asked to give yes or no responses to the questions. was january 6th an inside job? and was the 2020 presidential election stolen? those individuals who did not give the desired straight yes answers were not selected for those jobs. two people being considered for senior fbi roles were asked questions like who were the real patriots on january 6th? who won the 2020 election? and who is your real boss? those agencies have yet to hear the outcome of their interviews. i think it's pretty safe to say this isn't exactly the best way to determine the best and the brightest. also, the fbi and our intelligence agencies is being staffed by people who answer that the insurrectionists were the real patriots, and that trump won the

2020 election is pretty freaking concerning. and remember, trump isn't just installing personal loyalists among the rank and file. he's also installing them at the very top. today, the senate held a procedural vote on tulsi gabbard's nomination to be director of national intelligence, and every republican present voted to move her forward. her nomination? yes, the same tulsi gabbard, who for years has been accused of pushing russian propaganda and sympathizing sympathizing with some of the worst dictators on earth. but hey, at least she's loyal to donald trump. meanwhile, trump's pick to lead the fbi, kash patel, is still waiting on a committee vote as more of his foreign ties are revealed. last friday, we learned that that just last year he was paid $25,000 by a russian propaganda operation to attack the bureau he wants to lead. but hey, at least he's loyal to donald trump, i guess. so we have a president who wants to stack the rank and file of our intelligence services and law enforcement agencies with people

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department. look, i can tell you from my years in government that our adversaries, they watch all of this. they thrive on discord. they thrive on vulnerabilities. and right now, the trump musk administration is giving them plenty to look at and work with. joining me now is democratic congressman jim himes of connecticut. he's the ranking democrat on the house intelligence committee. congressman, it's great to see you. and there's so much to ask you about. we've been talking tonight a bit about the legal and constitutional questions surrounding elon musk. but i wanted to ask you, given some of the headlines i just outlined there about, you've been working in intelligence for ten years now, right? how do people overseas look at this and look at the vulnerabilities that we might be creating? >> you know. >> it's a. >> great question. and i'll tell you, i'm more concerned now than i have been in a very long time. let's let's start with russia and china. what are they seeing? they're seeing us, you know, attack mexico and canada. tariffs attack our allies with steel and aluminum tariffs. china and russia are saying, my god, the united states is going after their own allies. not they're not coming after us.

they're going after terrorists and bad guys. right? right. now, i know this, they know this. the fbi is in turmoil, right? firings and purges. and, you know, kash patel, who is known exclusively for his loyalty to donald trump, not for his law enforcement expertise. you know, if you're a terrorist, you're thinking, is now the moment, right? our friends and allies who are critical to our standing abroad and critical to our economic standing, to. >> our to. >> our economy are saying, my god, how what has happened? >> and of course, rule. >> of law. >> you know, we've always. >> been that country that, you know, people in africa. people in asia could say, you. >> know, it's. >> imperfect. >> it's a little ugly, but they're a democracy. and now we have the very real prospect that, you know. >> for the first. time since andrew jackson. >> a president is going to say, i'm not paying attention to the courts. >> he's sicking his fcc. >> on a radio station. right? i mean, this is bolivia 1975. >> type stuff. >> there was so much you just said there. and i wanted to ask you about what you said about kash patel. people, people throw out there, it's a national security risk. it's under threat. you actually know what that means. and not only are we

talking about him being in charge, what we're talking about, and i just outlined this a little bit earlier, loyalty tests where people are asked to give answers to questions like, who won the 2020 election? was it an inside job, things like that. and if they're going to be hired by law enforcement, what kind of risk does that pose? how should people understand that? >> well, think about think about fbi agents, right. and they're all over the country. they're all. >> over the world. >> they carry weapons. they are very well trained. they have very high stress jobs. and now, in the back of their mind, maybe in the front of their mind, they're saying, you. >> know. >> am i going to be evaluated not on whether i catch the terrorist or the mob boss. but whether i can be sufficiently loyal to donald trump? if you look at the purges and the firings across every agency and department, the answer to that question is that my advancement, maybe even my job, doesn't depend on whether i catch. >> that. terrorist or. >> the mafia boss. it depends on whether i can adequately show my loyalty. and look, if this is, i don't mean to be demeaning to the other departments and agencies of the united states government, but the fbi, these

guys carry weapons. they can knock down your door. it's a little different for these guys and the fbi also, as you know, you remember from your time in office, i would contrast the cia, which has an iconoclastic culture, with the fbi, which has kind of a yes, sir culture. right. so kash patel decides that he's going to go against what he told the united states senate and. >> actually use. >> the fbi for political retribution. that's i have a lot of respect for the members. >> of the fbi. but it's a culture. that says. >> yes, sir. and that's a really scary thought. >> that is a scary thought. let me ask you about elon musk, because a federal judge this weekend temporarily restricted his team's access to the treasury department's payment and data system, citing a risk of irreparable harm. we don't know that he's abiding by that. that's something we've been discussing. but i wanted to ask you just about the risk of him and some of the people. i mean, he has a person on his team who leaked secrets before from one company to another. what are the risks there of them having that data and access to the data? and how do people overseas who might

be adversaries look at that and the vulnerabilities there? >> well, you know, you asked the right question. there's so many other questions that need to be asked to, including, you know, why the hell elon musk? what about conflicts of interest? you asked a really key question. people inside the government, as you know, who have access to critical networks, who get access to classified information, they undergo a little bit of training. why not? >> because they're. >> stupid, but because they don't know about the many things that iranians or chinese or russians might do to compromise them. it might be as simple as leaving your phone on the table at starbucks, and if that phone has information that you pulled off an omb website. >> or an omb. >> server, you. >> know, it could. >> wind up in iranian hands. and so the fact that they haven't undergone that training, the fact that, you know, they're running through the most sensitive. parts of our government, people should be really worried. >> sensitive parts of the government. >> is, you. >> know. >> your personal tax records. >> it's whether. >> you were investigated five years ago and found to be innocent, but nobody knows about that. it is really sensitive stuff. and these guys, look, you know, what's the tragedy here is if donald trump had said government is inefficient, a lot of us would have said, yeah,

it's inefficient. so let's do a really smart review of foreign aid. >> programs of usaid. >> let's do a really. >> smart review. >> of the it inside the omb. and he would have had willing partners. instead, he's taken a wrecking ball. >> you know. in the form. >> of the richest man in the world without any training. >> to the federal government. >> and americans are about to find out. >> who was it that said, you know, the federal government. >> seems like the enemy. >> until you. >> need a friend. >> and, you know, whether it's. >> farmers or people suffering from disease or. >> people doing research or. >> fbi agents protecting us, they're. >> going to. >> discover that taking a wrecking ball to the federal government is a terrible idea. >> yeah, people people care about the programs in their communities. do you believe them that they're destroying the material that they were asked to destroy by the judge? >> look at. i mean, look. >> at. >> what musk says on. his wholly owned platform x. that is not a person that that emanates a lot of integrity. so. so no, i don't. and these guys are on a

mission. i can't begin to. tell you or understand what goes on inside elon musk's head, but these guys are on a mission to break stuff. you know, it goes back to the old mark zuckerberg thing. >> move. >> move fast and break things. and i think that's what they're doing. and what the american people are going to find out is that chicken and eggs are more expensive than they ever have been. their tax. >> data is at risk. >> the fbi is. >> distracted. >> and our. >> enemies and antagonists all over the. >> world could not be happier right now. >> congressman jim himes, thank you so much for joining me. i really appreciate it. and coming up, a special sneak peek at our brand new podcast out today. we're back after a quick break. >> you who. >> you're making. >> everything orange. >> we're showing our consumer cellular. >> it gets great coverage. >> we use the same. >> towers as. >> big wireless so you get the same coverage. >> wow. >> for unlimited talk and text with. reliable coverage and your second month free call, consumer cellular. >> messes happen. >> every day in. >> every way. >> but who wants. >> to drag out that. >> bulky vacuum? hey folks, joe. >> fowler here with. >> my favorite. >> cleaning partner, the duck,

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schlossberg, joined me for the first two episodes, which are out now, and i want to show you a preview of my conversation with governor moore, who is a veteran. and in this clip, i asked him about what he calls the bastardization of patriotism by republicans. there is an ownership of the flag and patriotism by members of the republican party, regardless of what that means. how do democrats flip that? how do they regain it? how do they address it? >> i think first, i think democrats. >> need. >> to care to address it. >> you don't think they care right now? >> i just i. >> still think it's still. >> so foreign for. >> people to, to wonder. >> why you would. why why. >> you are patriotic or what that. means and what it looks like. and i think there's been almost this, this conceding of the. >> flag or for the. >> word. >> patriotism which, which, which for me. >> is deeply. >> frustrating because i mean, i, you know, you know, i again,

i think about my own family. >> history, the. >> idea that somehow someone can take that from. >> me. >> someone can take that from my family, someone. >> can just. >> you know, particularly people who have not put in the work in the same way that my family has put in the work and the way of honoring and really loving this country and sacrificing for it, flaws and all, i just think we need to. we need to be firm on this. >> and if you. >> believe in this country, that doesn't. mean saying that it is flawless. loving your country. >> doesn't mean. >> lying about its history, but loving your. >> country means. >> you actually have a role in making it better. >> so scan the qr code on your screen and you can listen to the first two episodes. today we're going to drop two new episodes next monday. that does it for me tonight. the rachel maddow show starts right now. hey, rachel. >> hey, jen, i'm excited for the new pod. that's very, very, very exciting. >> thank you. i had to get in on the podcasting scene and talk with the democrats, because there's so much else to cover in the trump world. so this is the

time for that. >> even doing a show right now, as i'm doing five days a week, you feel like over the course of the day you could do 3 or 4 more shows in order to just keep up. like we all just need as much of an output lane as we can get, because the input lane is quite large. >> exactly. there's never enough time. >> exactly. seriously. thanks my friend. much appreciated. well done and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. really happy to have you here. so 2008, barack obama was elected president of the united states. he had been a u.s. senator, you might remember, had he lost that presidential campaign, he would have returned to just being a u.s. senator. but he did not lose. he won. and because he became president, that meant there was a vacancy. he had to vacate his senate seat in order to move to the white house. and that meant the governor of illinois would have to appoint somebody new to take that u.s. senate seat that barack obama was vacating.