is needed. this is one of the things jack schlossberg and i talked about a lot online and how democrats communicate. don't we don't need to always democrats don't need to always act like they are trying to argue their phd thesis. let's talk in simpler, more accessible language. let's think about being more fearless. those are a couple of the lessons from the first two episodes. >> the word i keep hearing from sources is more authentic, whatever that means. we're going to figure it out in real. >> time. >> i guess. a lot of meanings, i guess. jen psaki thank you, thank you, and thank you for tuning in. that was way too early for this tuesday morning. morning joe starts right now. >> i think. >> that what trump should do, like if i was giving him one piece of advice, fire every single mid-level bureaucrat, every civil servant in the. administrative state, replace them with our people. >> and when the courts. >> because you. >> will. >> get taken to court. and when the. >> courts stop. you stand before the. >> country like. >> andrew jackson did and. >> say. >> the chief justice has made his ruling. now let him enforce it. >> okay, there you go. little

precursor there for you. >> that was. >> then us. >> senate candidate jd vance giving donald. trump advice for a possible second term. it's very similar to a social media post from the current vice president questioning the. >> power of. the judiciary branch. >> we're going to. >> go through. >> all of that and play for you. the reaction. >> from republican senators. meanwhile. >> we're seeing that defiance. play out in the real. world with a judge. >> accusing trump, the trump administration. >> of. >> ignoring a court. >> order on the. >> federal funding freeze. we'll bring. >> you the. >> very latest on that. >> legal fight. plus. >> new york. >> city mayor eric adams. >> will not be going. >> to trial. >> in. >> april after. >> the justice department. >> ordered the federal corruption charges against him to be dropped. we'll get insight on that move from the trump administration, and. >> we'll go through the. >> president's latest comments on the cease fire. >> agreement between hamas. >> and israel, giving the. >> terror group. >> an ultimatum.

>> good morning. >> and welcome to morning joe. >> it's only tuesday, february 11th. >> willie is here. joe, along with joe. >> willie and me, we have. the host. >> of way too early. >> ali vitali. >> and the host of msnbc's. inside with jen psaki, jen psaki and we coordinated colors. >> jen psaki and. >> i, we left. >> ali out. >> of it. >> so guys. >> joe. >> where do you want to begin this morning. >> well we have so much to talk about. let's circle back to willie though who wasn't with us yesterday talking about the super bowl. first of all, the numbers came out 126 million people on average. watch the super bowl on sunday. obviously the biggest, the biggest audience for any super bowl ever. obviously, one of the biggest television events ever. but yeah. and what a game. >> yeah. >> well the amazing thing about that. >> number 126. >> million peaked at 137, i think, or 135 something like that is it was a terrible game and. >> you had that. >> many fans that it peaked in

the. >> second quarter. >> 130 million for the halftime show, and then dwindled it a little bit down the stretch. but again, these communal. >> experiences. >> the afc championship game, people want to sit and watch things together. and they did again on sunday. just extraordinary. and also you consider, as we always do with the super bowl, that people don't necessarily. >> even watch. >> in their own home, that. >> you go. >> somewhere to watch at somebody else's house, you go to a bar, whatever it is. we keep setting records and we talk about this age of fragmented media, except with live sports. >> and the nfl. >> especially. >> mika. >> yeah. >> for sure. >> so let's get to the news at the top of the hour here. two minutes. >> past. >> a federal judge in rhode island. >> said the trump administration. >> has violated. >> his order to lift a sweeping. freeze on federal spending and has ordered the government to restore the funds immediately. this is the first. time in trump's. >> second term. >> that a judge. >> has accused the trump. >> administration to be disobeying a judicial mandate.

the ruling comes in. >> response to a. >> lawsuit brought by. >> 22 attorneys. >> general in. >> democratic led states. >> after a. >> wide ranging. >> omb directive caused chaos. >> and confusion. >> across the country, the trump administration said they will appeal the decision. >> yesterday. the president. >> took a. >> swipe at the judicial. >> branch. >> saying that there. >> have been some. >> very bad. >> rulings and that it's a shame to see it. this comes amid. >> overall concerns. >> the trump administration will. >> not comply with court. >> orders from. >> judges who have. >> ruled against. >> the. >> president's agenda. that's because of a social. >> media post. >> on sunday from the vice president. >> j.d. vance, who wrote. >> in part. >> judges aren't. >> allowed to control the executive's. >> legitimate power. >> yesterday. republican senator. tommy tuberville. >> was. >> asked whether the white house has a right to circumvent. >> judges who are halting. executive actions. the trump. >> ally said. >> quote. >> i think they do. but here's.

how other republican senators responded. >> to. >> that question. >> well, i mean. >> the courts obviously are the sort. >> of the branch. >> of our government that calls balls and strikes and referees. and i think that they've got an important role to play. so i expect that to continue. and i expect the court to play the important role of ensuring. >> that. >> you know, that the laws of the country are followed. when you have a lawsuit, somebody wins and somebody loses. but i support the process and i support the legitimacy of the. federal judiciary. if you disagree and many people have. disagreed with opinions before, that's why god made courts of appeal. and that's why god made the us supreme court. but you're never going to hear me. attack the legitimacy of the federal judiciary. >> well. >> i.

>> don't even think we have seen that yet. >> so it's. >> a hypothetical. >> jd vance didn't say anything about anything that was not appropriate. he's saying on the appropriate use of executive powers. i think that's what he meant. i think it's a very, very clear line between the powers that are there that are that are appropriate. this president is. >> saying. >> i believe i have the authority you find out in a court of law, and if they are appropriate, you move forward with. >> it and should follow whatever the court's decision ultimately is. >> we have to. >> we will follow. >> the decisions of the court. and i don't think there's been anybody saying no, of course. and, well, it's one of the things i said yesterday. it's like there, though, though, it was meant to troll. and though jd vance has said and we heard it a couple of years ago on that podcast, that he thought she should just run over the third branch, like andrew jackson, the united states senators, i would say, other than maybe tommy

tuberville and maybe a handful of others. overwhelming majority of senators are going to say what an overwhelming majority of members of congress are going to say, which is you have to follow the court's decisions and the fact that anybody would even suggest that you don't is, yeah, it's okay for us to say that's shocking that they missed, i guess, civics class starting in fourth or fifth grade, or maybe they didn't have it. maybe that's the problem, but. as senator rounds said, it is the courts we listen to and they define what is legitimate. >> they define. >> what is not legitimate. sometimes the president likes it, sometimes the president doesn't. and yesterday we went through four years of federal rulings where the federal courts enjoined, stopped or overturned what president joe biden did. >> yeah. >> and we saw just yesterday

we'll. >> go through some of it. a flurry of court action of. >> stopping some of. >> these policies and these executive orders. >> put. >> in place by the trump administration. and almost. everyone we heard there is a lawyer, joe, we've. >> talked about this. jd vance went to yale law school. >> he was on the. >> yale law review. john kennedy. >> went to prestigious schools. they're all lawyers. they can't say anything other with a straight face. i hope then we have three co-equal branches of government. if you don't like the way a court rules, we've got the court of appeals you can go to, and then you can go up to the supreme court if you think it ought to go that far. that's just the way the system. >> works, and anything else ought. >> to be noise. we'll see again how they hold up. >> under pressure. >> from donald trump. but for now. >> at least. >> a handful of them, they're saying the right things. >> let's bring. >> in nbc news justice and. >> intelligence correspondent ken dilanian. >> and msnbc. >> legal analyst danny cevallos. guys, good morning, danny. >> start with you. >> what do you. >> make of that back and forth there? >> jd vance saying, well, we don't always. >> have to listen to. >> what the courts say. >> and some other. >> senators pushing back on that idea or trying to. interpret for

jd vance what they hope he. >> meant by that. >> what did you hear? >> yeah. historically. >> this has happened before. i think jd vance even referred to this situation way back. president andrew jackson refused to enforce an order. by the supreme court that resolved a clash between. the cherokee nation and the state of georgia. and history's lesson is, well, not a whole lot happens. >> to. >> a president or an administration who refuses to follow an order, because we operate on this kind of trust that the president will do that. and while it's probably. apocryphal that jackson said he has his order, meaning the supreme court, let's see them enforce it. >> it's a. >> scary quote, if. >> true. >> because it's really an unspoken thing that the courts don't really have their own armies. they don't have a powerful arm to enforce their orders. they rely on the government working properly and not defying them. so it is a scary concept. presidents may have that power. maybe it's not so much that they have that power, it's just that no one can stop them from not following the

court's. ali, ken. >> i do have a question for you though, because although senators are talking about this as theoretical and hypothetical, even as some of them are saying they're uncomfortable or trying to explain away what the vice president and others have seemingly suggested, you are seeing this federal judge up in rhode island saying that the trump administration is already balking at the court's order, not unfreezing the frozen spending and federal grant money. so push is seemingly already coming to shove here. >> that's absolutely right, ali. taking us out of the realm of a theoretical discussion into the practical and the real. here you have this federal judge in rhode island saying very explicitly that we believe you are i believe you're violating my order, that you stop this spending freeze and resume funding to places like the national institutes of health, because i think that's unconstitutional. and he began his ruling with a quote from a supreme court decision that essentially says those who defy

federal court orders risk criminal contempt. now, he didn't explicitly threaten the trump administration with criminal contempt and the rest of the ruling, but that was certainly the implication of opening that way. and it raises a whole host of questions, which is how does a judge hold an administration in criminal contempt? i mean, who do you you can't jail the president, obviously. in fact, if we remember, you know, donald trump was held in criminal contempt by the new york judge in his criminal case, but that judge was very reluctant to mete out that ultimate sanction of jail time. it didn't happen when he was the ex president. it's not going to happen when he's the president. so what are the remedies? i mean, we're gaming this out yesterday. can they are they going to throw some hapless justice department lawyer who happens to be in the courtroom, throw that person in jail? do they levy fines? what would be the point of fining the federal government, which has unlimited resources? so we're really at that point where it's starting to become a practical question, not just a theoretical question. and the other issue is it's really difficult for the judge

to get the facts when you have a government agency and you know, the plaintiffs aren't aren't allowed inside, and you have elon musk and his people and they're saying, well, we are spending the money and folks are saying, well, we're not getting the money. so it's a really difficult situation, guys. >> so it was good. >> to hear. >> some of the. >> republicans saying, you're not going. >> to. hear us thwarting. >> the law. >> but at the same time. >> danny, if you look at the front page of the. >> new york. >> times right now. >> it says. >> basically we're in a constitutional crisis, even though there isn't a. >> complete, clear. >> definition. >> citing different. >> deans of law schools from. >> the courts. >> across the country and experts. >> talking about. >> being in this. >> crisis because of the. flurry of things that trump has. >> done from. >> birthright citizenship, freezing federal. >> spending, shutting down. >> agencies, removing. >> leaders from agencies, the systematic. >> unconstitutional and illegal acts create. >> a constitutional crisis, one. >> legal expert said. the distinctive feature. >> of. >> the current situation, several legal scholars and said,

and it is. it's chaotic flood of activity and collectively. >> amounts to a radically new conception. >> of. >> presidential power. it is a. constitutional crisis. when the president of the united. >> states doesn't care. >> what the. constitution says, regardless of whether. >> congress or the courts resist. >> up until. >> now, while. >> presidents might engage. >> in particular. >> acts that were unconstitutional, there. >> was never a sense. >> that. >> you know, the constitution was meaningless. and the. bottom line is. >> the flurry. >> and. >> the chaos of. it may make it. so that the courts. >> won't even have the time to. >> react to that. you say what? >> i think we need to be careful with the term constitutional crisis because, as i define it, that would be a situation where the constitution doesn't have an answer and there is a pressing conflict. the flurry of executive. >> orders. >> the chaos. >> that i think doesn't get us to crisis. yet it. is irritating for the courts. it is challenging. it could lead to a

serious problem if, as you said, they become too congested with dealing with these orders. >> coming. >> the crisis occurs and we've already talked about it at the moment when there is a court order and the president or the administration refuses to follow it, because historically, we don't really have a clear answer for what to do in that situation. on the first the first half of it, issuing a bunch of executive orders, not only do we know that the courts can handle it, they already did this back in 2017. this is the same m.o. the trump administration then would just fire out executive orders. it felt like they weren't even spell checking them. and then they would let the courts prune them like the proverbial bonsai tree, or they would just withdraw them and go back to the drawing board. it's probably not the most efficient way of doing it. it's chaotic. as you said, it's problematic. but constitutional crisis for me is the moment the court issues an order and the administration resists. you could say that the last notable occurrence was when nixon initially refused to

comply with a subpoena issued by the supreme court. eventually he capitulated. but history is full of these near crises examples. the question is, what do we do going forward? >> and the funding freeze is just one case of the courts pushing back. we have a long. list in front of us. this morning, the buyout. pause was extended by a federal judge. >> the birthright. >> citizenship contesting that was blocked again. funding of nih. that was cut by the administration. that's been blocked again by a judge. so you're seeing the courts stepping in here. we'll see what happens next. >> meanwhile, the department. >> of justice is ordering federal prosecutors to. >> drop corruption. >> charges against. >> new york. >> city mayor. eric adams. >> the order from. >> acting deputy attorney general emil bove would dismiss. all charges. >> against mayor adams without. >> prejudice, meaning they could be refiled in the future. adams was charged with one count of conspiracy to receive campaign contributions from. foreign nationals, and to commit. wire fraud and. >> bribery. >> two counts of. soliciting campaign contributions from

foreign nationals, and one count of. >> soliciting and. >> accepting a. >> bribe, nbc reports. in a memo, bove argued that the indictment of adams in september came too. >> close to. >> this year's mayoral primary in june, and that it limited. >> adams's ability to. >> aid president donald trump's crackdown on immigrants and to fight crime, both without citing specific evidence, also suggested the charges were politically motivated. it cannot be ignored that mayor. >> adams criticized. >> the prior administration's. immigration policies before the charges were filed. >> he wrote. >> bove said adams case would be reviewed by a trump appointed u.s. attorney, but not until after the general. election for. mayor in november. it's important to note the charges against the mayor have not yet been officially dismissed. for that to happen, a formal request will need to be filed in court and reviewed by a judge. mayor adams's. lawyer responded to the dismissal order in a statement that reads in part, the facts of the case are clear. the mayor never used his official position for personal benefit, nor did he

have any role in violating campaign finance laws. despite a lot of fanfare and sensational claims, ultimately, there was no evidence presented that he broke any laws ever. end quote. and here are the front pages of the new york tabloids. >> this morning. >> new york daily news simply. >> saying off the. >> hook. and remember, this involved. >> the nation of turkey. so quit cold turkey. >> so. >> ken delaney, we should. >> also add to. >> this conversation that. eric adams has courted donald. >> trump very hard to get to this day. >> he went down just. >> days before. >> the inauguration to mar-a-lago. he raced down to. >> the inauguration itself. >> he has met many times with donald trump priming the pump for this moment. and now he's off the hook for now. >> yeah. and it's easy to make light of this, willie. but i got to tell you, it's i feel like a broken record, but it's hard to overstate what an earthquake of a story this is in justice department circles, because you just don't see this. they explicitly said they were not dropping the case because of the

facts or the law, that it was no reflection on the legal theories or the work of the career prosecutors who brought the case. and so what was their grounds? well, it was, you know, charges without evidence that the u.s. attorney who had been appointed by president biden, you know, was using the case to burnish his image. and also some concerns that the trial would take place during the new york primary season, even though the indictment was brought nine months before the new york primary. so, look, i mean, this what this is starting to look like is a political decision to drop charges against someone who, as you said, has been courting donald trump and the trump administration and who has claimed that he was persecuted by the biden administration because of his stance on immigration. and they even said, actually, in their justification, that another issue they were concerned about was that he had lost his security clearance because he was under these this criminal cloud and therefore couldn't cooperate with federal authorities in immigration enforcement. so, look, this is

this is not done. i mean, it's, you know, it's creating the impression that, you know, there's a biden justice department and a trump justice department. these decisions are made for political reasons. the southern district of new york is full of career prosecutors who are apolitical. and they brought this case based on the facts and the law. there's a mountain of evidence, much of which they revealed in a speaking indictment that accuses eric adams of soliciting bribes and favors from the government of turkey and then, in turn, doing the government of turkey favors using his official position, including getting the approval for a building that the fire department said was unsafe to occupy in new york city. and so here you have a situation where there the main justice is ordering the southern district to drop this case. it hasn't been dropped yet. but then saying that it's being done without prejudice, meaning the charges could be refiled at any time. well, what position does that leave mayor eric adams in? he is now beholden to the trump justice department. those charges are hanging over him. so

this is a really, really extraordinary situation, danny. >> another case. mayor adams, knowing what a lot of people know that flattery. >> will. >> get you everywhere with donald trump. go down, flatter him, court him, support his policies, and you'll get what you want out of the deal. but how disheartening is this for prosecutors building cases? as we can say about all the january. >> 6th prosecutors. >> as well? >> yeah, the memo itself says, well, this has nothing to do with the lime. prosecutors who worked on these cases. it's more about management. but that's got to be a hollow compliment to the lime prosecutors who worked on the case, because when you do, you live that case. and these are there's a difference between the lime prosecutors and the appointed positions. but i got to tell you, willie, never in the history of memos have there been so much in the way of subtext between the lines. it's two pages and there's so much in there. among them, the smarter thing for the administration might have been to just make this memo three lines dismiss the case against mayor adams. it's the explanation that's going to subject them to a ton

of criticism. and if anyone else is concerned that this is a quid pro quo between eric adams in exchange for him helping with immigration enforcement and dismissing the case, that's not me saying it. the memo itself worries about that in a footnote, saying that is not what this is, we promise you. but critics are going to say that's exactly what this seems like. and the magic word that you seized on, willie, is the word without without prejudice does mean. and the memo says that they could bring these charges again, which normally wouldn't have that much meaning. but in this case, because they also mentioned the things that they want eric adams to help the administration with. >> yeah. >> the implication is going to draw a lot of criticism. again, my recommendation would have been make this three lines dismiss the case. it's the explanation that's going to get them in trouble. >> nbc news and. msnbc legal. analyst danny. >> cevallos and. >> nbc news justice. correspondent ken dilanian. thank you both. >> very much. >> for. >> your reporting. >> and analysis. >> so, jen psaki, let's.

>> talk big picture. >> now and the democrats. what should they. >> be doing right now? what are the options? >> well. >> look, i think in washington it's important to remember they're in the minority in the house and the senate. so they have not as much leverage as i think most people who are rooting for them to push back think they might have, but there are still things they can do. we've seen this threat of a potential to shut the government down. i'm not suggesting shutting the government down is good politics. it's certainly not. but it is a negotiating moment. the deadline is march 15th, march 14th, where they could use that to try to put some pressure on mike johnson and republicans. we've seen them much more active and participating in peaceful protests. we've seen them showing up at agencies where elon musk and his team is getting in. the doj's team is getting to business they shouldn't be getting into. so we've seen some activity. there needs to be more, i think. but that's one of the ways those are a couple of the ways that they can be active. the last thing i would say, mika, is we've seen some some try attempt this.

there needs to be a little bit more fearlessness of calling out when republicans are behaving in ways that are contradictory to their own values, that are contradictory to what they've believed for some time on some of these nominees, and that are contradictory to what the american public really wants. and there are a lot of opportunities to do that with what musk is doing with some of these nominees. i'd love to see more of that. we're seeing kind of kind of inklings of it at this point. >> all right. still ahead on. >> morning joe, we'll. >> get. >> the latest. >> from paris. >> where vice president. >> jd vance is attending a. summit on. >> artificial intelligence. >> plus. >> president trump. >> elaborates on his proposal to take. >> over gaza and. gives hamas. >> an ultimatum. >> we'll play. >> for those comments you're watching morning joe. we're back. >> in 90s. >> thanks for calling. >> consumer cellular ranked number one in network. coverage and customer satisfaction. >> hi. >> my friend linda has you guys. it gets way better coverage than

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buick. exceptional by design. plant, a. natural vegetable laxative ingredient. >> gentle. >> dependable. >> seneca. >> also available in delicious gummies. >> 24 past the hour. welcome back. >> vice president. >> j.d. vance is in. >> paris this morning. >> for an artificial intelligence summit. >> the associated press reports that. >> vance took a moment during. >> his address. >> to warn. global leaders and. >> tech ceos. >> that, quote, excessive regulation would kill the growing ai industry. joining us live from paris is nbc. news international correspondent raf sanchez. raf, what more can you tell us about vance's address? >> well, mika, this was vice president. >> vance's debut. >> on the world stage. >> he was speaking.

>> to an. audience that. included french president emmanuel. >> macron, the. >> prime minister of india. >> senior leaders from. >> china and. >> other countries. and he used the opportunity to. >> deliver a. >> full throated america. >> first vision. >> of artificial intelligence. >> he said. that he is determined. >> and. >> the trump administration is determined. >> to see. >> the united states. >> remain the. >> world's ai superpower. >> he warned. >> against any efforts to choke off to. overregulate the american ai. >> industry, and he spoke in pretty. >> stark terms. >> i want you. >> to. take a listen. >> the united. >> states of america is the leader in ai, and our administration plans to keep it. >> that way. >> we invite your countries to work with us and to follow that model. if it makes sense for your nations. however, the trump administration is troubled by reports that some foreign governments are considering tightening the. screws on u.s.

tech companies with international footprints. now, america cannot and will not accept that. >> now, you heard him there saying the united states is open. >> to cooperation. >> but that it will be on american terms when it comes to regulation. >> interestingly, mika, he. >> did not name china. >> in his. >> address, but china has been very much hanging over. >> this summit. >> silicon valley, washington capitals throughout. >> europe, very rattled by the. success of. >> that chinese startup. >> deep seek, which appears to produced a pretty. >> sophisticated ai model at a fraction of the. cost of western companies. he did warn. >> european nations. >> about yoking their technology to what he. >> called. >> authoritarian regimes, and becoming dependent on supply chains from those countries. mika. >> nbc's raf sanchez. >> live from paris. >> thank you. >> very much. let's bring. >> in president. >> emeritus of the council on foreign. >> relations, richard haass. he's the author of the weekly.

>> newsletter home. >> in a way, available. >> on substack. >> pulitzer prize winning. >> columnist and associate. >> editor of the washington post, eugene robinson joins us as well. richard. >> we'll start with that. we do. >> want to talk about. >> gaza. >> but what do. >> you make of the stance. >> that the vice president. >> was putting out. >> there, especially about the regulation. >> of ai? >> i think he's on to something. i simply don't think ai lends itself to regulation. let me give you one image would be nuclear weapons. united states and the soviet union had them. we had arms control because nuclear weapons were basically in two hands, very large, concentrated efforts to build them. ai is so different. it's distributed. it's decentralized. dozens of companies in the united states and around the world. so the idea that. >> wouldn't it seem like. >> the one thing that. >> really needs to be regulated. >> given the potential? >> well, the problem is. >> first of all, how do you regulate the bad sides and not the good sides? who decides? how do you somehow discriminate? china and others aren't going to want to do it. there's too much economic upside here, mika. potentially too much strategic and military upside. you can't

regulate things when they're in a stage of fast development. they have to reach plateaus. ai is not going to reach a plateau. it's going to keep moving. i simply don't think the nature of the beast lends itself to regulation. >> so is it. >> just the wild west? >> then how. >> do you. >> how do. >> you have. >> some control. >> over ai. >> or do you not? >> i think. >> i simply don't think you do. i mean, there's two ways to think about it. one is naturally, what are we, as the united states do? maybe we can do some things. again, i think it's very hard. but internationally, willie, i just i think it is sort of the wild west and countries are going to be looking for ways to exploit it for economic advantage, intelligence advantage, military advantage. now we may reach a point where it reaches levels of maturity that in select areas you can get some select regulation or limits. but we're not we're not even close to that yet. >> all right. >> that's what the. >> vice president's doing in paris. >> meanwhile, more news. >> out of gaza. hamas is postponing the release of any more hostages, accusing israel of violating the terms of the. >> cease fire agreement. >> the terrorist group. was supposed to hand over hostages

on saturday, but now is delaying the move over claims israel is slow to allow displaced palestinians to return to northern gaza, and that it has not been letting aid enter the enclave. in response, israel has put its military on high. >> alert. >> telling troops to prepare for any. scenario in gaza. president trump also weighed in on the conflict yesterday, issuing an ultimatum to hamas. >> as far as i'm concerned, if all of the hostages aren't returned by saturday at 12:00, i think it's an appropriate time. i would say cancel it and all bets are off and let hell break out. >> let hell break out. >> saturday at noon, he says. meanwhile, the president says palestinians would not be allowed to return to gaza under his plan to take over and redevelop the region. the president made the comment during the pre-taped super bowl interview with fox news host bret baier. >> we'll build beautiful communities for the 1.9 million people. we'll build beautiful

communities. safe communities could be five six could be two, but we'll build safe communities a little bit away from where they are, where all of this danger is. in the meantime, i would own this. think of it as a real estate development for the future. it would be a beautiful piece of land. would the palestinians know? big money spent? no, they wouldn't, because they're going to have much better housing. much better. in other words, i'm talking about building a permanent place for them, because if they have to return now, it will be years before you could ever. it's not habitable. it would be years before it could happen. >> the president. >> reiterated that palestinians would not be allowed to return to gaza. at the white house yesterday, he doubled down on an idea and suggested cutting aid to jordan and egypt if they refuse to take in palestinians. both countries have made clear they don't want to do that, and voiced opposition to the president's plan. president trump is set to meet with the king of jordan at the white house today. so, so much. >> in there, richard. >> we can start with all hell

breaking loose at noon on saturday if all the hostages are not returned. that's what the president said yesterday. what do you take that to mean? >> look, i think at some point israel might be tempted to restart military operations. getting from phase one to phase two of this agreement is really tough, because phase two is really demanding. it means that israel has to completely withdraw from all of gaza, and you have an open ended ceasefire. i find that hard to believe. as much as many israelis want to do that, to get the hostages back. hamas is out there, out of the tunnels. i simply am skeptical that we're at a point where we're going to get phase two of this agreement in place, so i think you could see renewed, renewed violence. ali vitali, i'm curious on the reporting front, has there. been any follow up? i know initially the white house didn't respond specifically. has there been any follow up to donald trump saying, i am going to own gaza, and it's going to think of it as basically a real estate

development? any any follow up on whether he was talking about himself personally or whether he's talking about the united states, quote. owning gaza. >> it's an excellent distinction, and one that i've not yet heard the white house make, but that is also predicated on the way that trump explained it, which is, he says israel will give the land to the united states, and that's not israel's land to give. and so there are still a lot of questions about this idea that trump has however much he's thinking about it, not as an executive or the leader of the greatest country in the world, but thinking about it as a real estate developer, it doesn't matter the mindset. it matters that there are a lot of clear roadblocks to the way that he's talking about trying to achieve this. but certainly those are key questions that the white house has had to and will have to explain. the one that they made a clear point of explaining was when trump weighed the possibility of u.s. troops being used towards this effort. that's something that they quite

quickly knocked down. but just because they're knocking down one thing doesn't mean that the rest of the questions have been answered, at least not in a way that allows us to have a fuller sense of what the president's talking about here. >> and, richard, back to you. what are the consequences for our allies, our sunni arab allies like jordan, like egypt? the saudis have already spoken out against this. of course, the rest of the region has as well. what are what are the ramifications? not only for our allies, but also for our enemies there who wish to do us harm? if the white house moves forward with this plan for donald trump to take over gaza in the name of the united states, or in the name of his own development. sure. i mean, i can't even it's hard to hard to hard to even imagine that this question is being asked. but he has said it. he has doubled down on it and he has tripled down on it. what are the consequences if he continues

down this path for u.s. alliances and the region? well, let's just be stark about it, because the president, as you said, has doubled and tripled down about it. let me start by saying it will not resolve the palestinian issue. the idea that gazans are going to be placated with, quote unquote, beautiful or better homes in alexandria or somewhere in jordan, and they're going to give up their aspirations for a national home of their own is simply not going to happen. that's simply, i think, misunderstands the nature of nationalism. second of all, jordan is already, as you know, joe, more than 50% palestinian. it's interesting. the king is here. i actually think the king sits on a very uneasy throne. and he's he's in an impossible situation. if the palestinians were to enter jordan, i think that could tip the domestic balance and stability if the united states cuts off aid. jordan, i believe, is the second largest recipient of american aid to that part of the world. and unlike egypt, its aid was not protected in the in the

freeze that aid. so i think jordan is very, very vulnerable as potentially is egypt. so we can end up with the best of the worst of all worlds, not satisfying anything the palestinian wants, if anything, supporting hamas is radicalism. they could say, we told you you need us. the only alternative now is we have to resist rather, or we're going to be deported. and we could destabilize egypt and jordan. don't forget, those are the two first countries in the arab world to make peace with israel. they are the foundation of israel's acceptance in the region of the abraham accords and all else. so i simply don't understand what is motivating the president to continue to push an idea that i simply think can't succeed and if it's actually implemented, potentially would make the middle east much more unstable than it currently is at a time, there's enormous opportunity to do something with iran, to do something, given what israel has

accomplished militarily, i don't understand why the president would introduce elements of instability when there's real progress potentially to be made. >> i mean, that's the right question, right, eugene? why would the president be pushing this kind of a plan, given the landscape that richard so frankly lays out? >> no, i think there's no good answer. >> to that question. >> because it is a crazy thing to. do at this time. >> it's a crazy. >> thing, crazy idea at any time, to tell you the truth. >> but particularly now. >> you know, the saudis keep putting out statements saying, no, no, this will. >> not happen. this cannot happen. >> and my question. >> i. >> have a question for richard. >> haass, which is. >> do the saudis have. >> any leverage here? >> i mean, they have. >> they have. >> clearly said there. >> is no normalization. >> of relations. with israel. if any part of this plan. goes goes forward. >> there's no. normalization until. >> we're on a path to. >> a two. state solution. >> is.

>> that real leverage. >> still, or. >> is there other. >> leverage that the. >> saudis have? >> i don't think it's that much leverage, because the israeli government has, in some ways discounted the importance of normalization with saudi arabia. if they valued it more, it would have happened somewhere sometime earlier, and it would have interfered with their goals in gaza. i think the principal saudi leverage right now is to produce more oil, because that would basically create downward pressures on oil pricing, which would help offset renewed inflationary pressures here. and even more would hurt russia. and if president trump is committed to getting a ceasefire in ukraine, one way to do it is to put more economic and pressure. and that might be the greatest saudi leverage, not in the middle east, but in europe. >> jen. >> we're getting a reminder. >> too, of the trump playbook. >> even when it. comes to allies, whether it's threatening those tariffs against canada and mexico, our closest trading partners, to extract some concessions from them. in the case of mexico, those concessions had already been in place. and they just reminded

him, sure, we'll go through with those. and in this case, in the middle east, our closest partners threatening to cut off aid to our closest allies who we need desperately in the middle east. if they don't get get on board with the program. this is how he does business. >> it's how he also does business is he has a special liking penchant for friendship with whatever you want to call it, prime minister netanyahu. he also has an affection for vladimir putin. and i think the netanyahu relationship is, to me, one of the clear reasons or one of the explanations for what we're seeing here. obviously, people from the trump administration, the incoming trump administration, played a role for the biden administration on getting the ceasefire across the line. to richard haass point, the first stage of this was actually the much easier stage. trump we don't know what trump, how he thought about it, what he was deciding, but that may have been in his mind. we know that netanyahu wanted him to be president. we know that president trump respects netanyahu, and i think that's not a non-factor here, or that's

how i would look at it. >> all right. jen psaki, thank you very much. we're going to be watching. >> inside with jen psaki. >> sunday at. >> noon and monday at 80. >> turn right here. >> on msnbc and check. >> out her new podcast. >> it's called the blueprint. >> with jen psaki. >> which takes. >> a deep dive into the. state of the democratic party. the first two. >> episodes are available. >> now. >> and they are amazing. >> again, the blueprint. congratulations, jen. >> on that. >> and coming. >> up, we're. >> going. >> to dig. >> into president trump's latest. >> tariff announcement. >> imposing a 25%. >> tax on aluminum. >> and steel imports. >> plus why. >> the trump administration. >> is now renaming fort liberty. >> we'll tell you who the white. >> house is trying. >> to honor. morning joe will be >> to honor. morning joe will be right back.

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last night president trump signed new. >> 25% tariffs, 25%. >> on. >> all steel. >> and aluminum. >> imports to the united states. >> the tariffs. >> apply to. >> all shipments of. >> the metals. >> including from canada and mexico. >> despite trump. >> granting a. >> 30 day delay.

>> of the blanket. >> tariffs on all goods from. >> those. >> countries. >> last week. u.s. steel and aluminum suppliers may benefit from the decision. >> as they'll. >> have the chance. to undercut foreign. >> competitors. >> but americans. could soon feel the impact on their. >> wallets. >> as aluminum and steel are used. >> in a wide. >> range of. products from appliances, smart. >> phones. soda cans. >> and more. >> and higher import. >> costs would filter. through to consumers. so, richard. what does this make a lot of sense? >> well, first of all, your analysis is right. this will save some jobs. >> i was. >> waiting for you to say. >> it doesn't. >> well. >> it doesn't, but i'm trying to explain it. it will save some jobs in this country, or maybe even create a few in the steel and aluminum industries, but it will do so at an enormous cost, because there's far fewer jobs there than, for example, there is in the construction industry, which uses steel or the automobile industry. so the knock on effects of this will

want to add to inflation. and two will reduce sales for other businesses. so we'll have unemployment and other parts of the economy. and then mika and the reason it doesn't make sense is this will invite retaliation, the idea that we can do this in other countries won't won't act in kind. so this basically will start something of a trade war and that will be there's no like most wars, there's no winners. this will this will add to cost. so what worries me about this, and this is something the president believes is an article of faith. it's basically it's what economists call import substitution. instead of importing things we're going to substitute it by domestic. but it's much more expensive. so it doesn't make sense. and what's so odd about it? can i say one last thing? yeah. he inherited an economy that's in pretty good shape. it's humming along at close to 3% inflation is way down. >> things were moving. >> in. >> the right direction. >> employment was way up. >> yeah. >> what this threatens. >> to do. >> is disrupt what was basically a very strong economy. and he

could have done some tweaks to it and taken credit for it. what? i think he will rue the day here because because at the end americans are going to care about inflation more than anything else. and this is going to set in motion trends where there's going to be new unemployment and steel dependent industries, and there's going to be inflation. so the president, i think, risks the stability of an economy that he inherited that was in pretty good shape, which, by the way, allowed him to focus on other things like the border or anything else. and the idea that he wants his focus to have to be on an economy that's in trouble. i do not understand the political or economic wisdom of it. so getting back to your question, i don't think it makes sense by his lights. >> so how do you explain it? richard? we were just talking. >> you've been discussing the economy and foreign policy with donald trump for 30 years, well before he was in politics. >> why is he. >> doing this if he knows prices are going to go up? it's just the way it works. his own economists are telling him that his own treasury knows that. why is he doing it?

>> donald trump has two articles of faith that have propelled him for four decades, maybe now longer, five decades. one is the trade. we get disadvantage by trade to be. it's rigged against us. we get screwed. to use. >> an analogy, ripped off. >> we're always getting ripped off. and then the second strong view is allies again are ripping us off. they're freeloaders. and the united states pays much more, if you will, for the world than we get from it. so he wants to do two things. he wants to address what he thinks is the unfairness of trade. he sees trade imbalances bilateral. and he said that we must be somehow it's rigged against us. why isn't the playing field level? you know, there's a whole bunch of economic theory about, you know, you know, ricardo, and comparative advantage that essentially we shouldn't be making things that others can make more cheaply. we should be focusing on making the things that we make best quality at better cost. but the president wants to bring back certain types of manufacturing industries that we don't have a comparative advantage. but that is where he is. he's in. it's

almost as if his views on this got locked in 30 or 40 years ago, during the problems with japan and so forth, and he just feels this way. so i actually feel sorry for his economic advisers because you can't waltz into the oval office and persuade the president out of this. this is an article of faith for him. >> and he also sees. >> him as leverage 25%. >> new tariffs. >> on steel. >> and aluminum imports coming into the united states. defense secretary pete hegseth. >> has renamed. >> the army base fort liberty back to fort bragg. but this. >> time. >> bragg is not a reference to the confederate general. the previous name was changed to remember to fort liberty in 2023, as part of an effort to cut military honors bestowed on those who rebelled against the union during the civil war. the name now honors an enlisted army soldier named roland l bragg, who took the pentagon says was. >> awarded a. >> silver star. >> purple heart. >> for combat during world war two. hegseth issued the memorandum monday while flying to europe on a military plane. in a video posted to social

media, secretary hegseth is seen sitting at a desk while signing the memo and then reading a portion of the order, commenting, quote, bragg is back. so these, gene robinson, are the. little cultural things. that donald trump has been talking about for a long time. part of the anti-woke agenda, if you can say renaming a base under the name of someone who was a confederate general, but saying it was a different soldier who served with honor, i'm sure. but this is obviously a cute way around that. this is sort of delivering on those promises, on the margins to get rid of woke in the government. >> yeah. >> on the margins is right. >> because, okay, this is what i guess what he he put pete. hegseth in the pentagon to do. but do. >> you. >> think he might find some time. >> to like. >> think about. our defense posture, to. >> think about our. >> our our defense. >> our military industrial complex. is it is it able to.

build the right enough ships? are we producing. >> enough ammunition? >> are we producing the right weapons? >> our forces. >> in the right. >> configuration and numbers for the potential. >> conflicts of the. >> future and. >> not of. >> the past? what is he doing about this intractable pentagon bureaucracy? >> that seems never seems. >> to move. >> like molasses? >> i mean, there's. >> lots to do at the pentagon. >> and if this. >> is the. way pete hegseth is going to spend his time, then this appointment of him as secretary is as bad as i feared. it would be, because. there is so. >> much to. >> do. so much that should be done. >> and he. >> is. >> you know. >> worrying about. >> finding a bragg to rename. >> now fort. >> bragg after it's. ridiculous and a tragedy of the trump.

>> administration that i hope we won't see repeated throughout the government. but i fear we will. >> yeah. >> president emeritus on the council on foreign. >> relations. >> richard haass. >> thank you. very much for being. >> on this morning. >> we appreciate it. we're all stumbling. >> through me. >> you and joe. >> willie. >> are still our best. we're doing. >> our best. >> still ahead on morning joe, the fbi just unearthed about 2400. >> records tied to. >> jfk's assassination. we'll go over. >> the new discovery. >> plus. we'll dive. back into the new. >> book booster. >> shots. >> which makes the case that measles remain a threat that should not. >> be underestimated. the author. joins us. >> to discuss. >> the urgent. >> lessons parents. >> need to know. >> also ahead, we'll speak with democratic senator elizabeth. >> warren about the consumer financial protection bureau, the. >> agency she helped. >> create, and why the trump administration is now. >> going after it. >> morning joe will be right back.

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longest three hours ever. >> i came with so. >> boring after. >> halftime, the super bowl party i was at switched. >> over to the new season of severance. >> it began with the teams being introduced. >> from heaven. >> and it's. >> just weird. >> the game was. >> over very, very early on. there was no three peat for the chiefs. you almost.

>> had to feel. >> sorry for. >> the chiefs. >> as weird. >> as that sounds. not only did they get blown out, they got blown out. on tubi of all places. it's never a good sign when the most dramatic. part of a super bowl game is harrison ford talking about his jeep. >> welcome back to morning joe. >> it's tuesday. >> february 11th. eugene robinson. >> is still with us. >> and joining the conversation, we have u.s. special correspondent. for bbc news. >> katty kay. >> and msnbc contributor mike barnicle. so there's a new tone at the justice department, led by. >> attorney. >> general pam bondi, that appears. >> to promise. >> a campaign. >> of intimidation. >> against career. >> employees viewed as insufficiently loyal. many current and former law enforcement officials described. >> to the new york times. >> a major and alarming departure from years of justice. >> department practice. >> in which it steered. >> clear of political rhetoric. the new tone, they said, suggests the opposite, seeming.

>> to promise. >> a campaign. >> of intimidation against career. prosecutors and agents viewed as insufficiently loyal to mr. trump. >> since becoming. >> attorney general. >> bondi has signed a number. of memos. >> including one. >> that urged zealous. advocacy for the president's. >> agenda. >> part of a series of missives from top officials effectively demanding loyalty from their employees. and bondi is not the only one, quote, newly minted senior officials. >> from powerful perches. >> across the justice department have issued fiery broadsides against employees. denouncing insubordination. >> or abhorrent. >> conduct. >> and in one. >> instance, vowing to pursue unspecified. opponents of mr. trump's cost cutting efforts to the ends of the earth. >> okay, well. >> there was the loyalty pledge. >> joe. >> in the first.

>> administration, and. >> this is. maybe taking it a step further or 2 or 3, depending on. >> how you. >> look at it. yeah. i mean, ali, in the. >> first administration. >> there was, oh, i'm sorry, katty, and the first. >> administration, there. >> seemed to be this give and take, this sort of battle. donald trump wanted to be more involved in the justice department. he would call it my justice department. and there would be a lot of blowback. there would be a lot of there would be a lot of debate, and op eds would be written about it. and, you know, he would be he tried to pressure his attorney generals to go after whether it was joe biden right before the election or hillary. >> clinton in. 17 and 18. >> there was always this pushback. there is none of that. now that it looks like one of the first things that they decided with project 2025 and with everything else, is that they were going to button down the justice. department and that traditional. line that has

separated the white house decisions from the decisions of the justice department appears to be completely blown apart now. >> yeah. >> i mean. >> in the. >> first administration. >> it was. >> very. >> clear that donald trump. >> was super. >> frustrated that. >> his attorney. >> general. >> as he. >> like to call jeff. >> sessions, was. >> not doing what he. >> wanted to do. >> when he. >> recused himself from. >> the russia case. >> and he came in this time clear that that. >> was not going. >> to happen, both. >> in the. >> justice department. i think you're going to see that in the defense. >> department as well. >> where he used to refer to my generals. >> but. >> then my generals. >> would act. >> independently. >> and he didn't like that as well. >> they have. i mean, i. >> think what has happened in terms. >> of these confirmations. >> with pam. >> bondi at. >> the justice. >> department and. >> the way that she. >> has come. >> in. >> with these. fiery memos. straight away. >> but more. >> broadly, with all. >> of these nomination. >> hearings is. >> a. >> sign of donald trump's power. >> i mean, i think if you if you needed to see. how donald trump has captured. >> the republican.

>> party. >> you need look no. >> further than rfk. >> jr and tulsi. gabbard. as people who are about. this week looking like they are going to sail through. >> the nomination. >> process and what he has managed to do in terms of the. state and the justice department. >> and, of course, the justice. >> department is absolutely critical. >> we've known for the last four years. >> that if donald trump. >> was going. >> to be reelected, the. >> one position. >> he cared about more than. >> any other. >> was the position of the attorney general. and it looks like in pam bondi he has got the attorney general. >> that he wanted. >> as is. >> his right. >> that is what a president is. >> allowed. >> to do. it's just the way. >> that he is using. >> the justice department to shore up. >> the executive. >> is not. >> something that. is so common. >> so meanwhile. >> there's. been some concern. >> the trump administration. >> might not comply with court orders from judges who have ruled against. >> the president's agenda. that's in large part because of. >> a sunday social. media post from vice president jd vance, who wrote. >> in part, judges.

>> aren't allowed to control the executive's. legitimate power. yesterday. >> reporters asked. >> a number. >> of republican senators. >> about the post, and here's how. >> many responded. >> well, i mean. >> the courts. >> obviously are the sort. >> of the branch. >> of our government that calls balls and strikes and referees. >> and i think. >> that they've got. >> an. >> important role to play. >> so i. >> expect that to continue. and i expect the court to play the important role of ensuring that, you know, that the laws in the country are followed. when you have a lawsuit, somebody wins and somebody loses. but i support the process and i support the legitimacy of the federal judiciary. if you disagree and many people, i've disagreed with opinions before. >> that's why. >> god made courts of appeal, and that's why god made the us supreme court. but you're never going to hear me. attack the

legitimacy of the federal judiciary. >> well. >> i. don't even think we. >> have seen that yet. >> so it's a hypothetical. >> jd vance didn't say anything about anything that was not appropriate. he's saying on the appropriate use of executive powers. i think that's what he meant. i think it's a very, very clear line between the powers that are there, that are, that are appropriate. this president. >> is saying. >> i believe i have the authority. >> you find. >> out in a court of law and if they are appropriate, you move forward with them. >> and should follow whatever the court's decision ultimately is. >> we have. >> to. >> we will follow. >> the decisions of the court. and i don't think there's been anybody saying, no, no, mike barnicle, we have to the senator said you had senator kennedy talking about the legitimacy of the federal judiciary, and that he would never question it. the same, of course, with john thune. it seems the overwhelming majority of republicans suggesting that any any any

suggestions from jd vance or tommy tuberville that a court decision could just be ignored, would be seen them as as a nonstarter. joe. >> it's february 11th. >> we are not. even a month into the. >> trump presidency. number two. >> it is exhausting. every day is exhausting. not only to people like us who do this for a living talking about it, but it has to be exhausting to the. american public. and now we have. >> a confrontation. >> right here on the precipice. article one versus. >> article two of the constitution. >> article one is. >> the legislative process. >> article two. >> is the executive. >> and apparently. >> the executive does not care. >> about article one. >> never proven more succinctly. >> than in. >> yesterday's memorandum. >> from emile. >> beauvais, the. >> assistant attorney general. >> of the united. >> states. >> basically throwing.

>> eric adams any case. >> against eric. >> adams out. >> the window, but. also taking the time to whack back. >> at the biden administration. >> they're always using the political in. with the legal. and that that is doubly exhausting, i think, for everybody. >> all right. let's bring in. >> former district attorney. >> for westchester county mimi roca. she was also. >> an. >> assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york for. >> more than a decade. >> i want. >> to talk to you about what's. >> going on here in new. >> york city. >> as. >> well. >> mayor adams. >> but first, the. >> american bar association put out a statement. and i'm wondering what. >> you make of. >> it. >> in terms of the. >> pushback that we could see from the. >> courts, if any. >> so that. >> statement that the american bar association put. out just last night is, is really extraordinary. and i don't know that people who aren't lawyers. who follow the aba would necessarily know it, but they they don't make. >> a. >> lot of statements, and they

certainly don't make kind of long, muscular, passionate statements in the way that this one did. and there's i don't remember, off the top of my head the quotes, but it. >> really talks about just. >> upholding the. >> rule of. >> law and is essentially a plea to lawyers. and i think that is so important. people feel kind of what do we do? you know, how how can we help? this is the kind of thing that that really is a reminder to attorneys that we as lawyers, we have oaths, we have ethical rules. and people can ask you to do things. they can tell you to do things, but you ultimately have got to follow those oaths, those. ethical rules, and your internal moral compass. and that's something that, you know, certainly i learned early on in the southern district of new york and something that's going to be very tested already is being tested on lawyers and including the u.s. attorney in the southern district of new

york. >> so i want to. >> get to that in just a. >> second with mayor adams. but i want to ask you about what we heard from senator mike rounds, trying to explain j.d. vance's comments that the executive branch doesn't always have to listen to the courts. it depends. he said, quote, they're just talking about a, quote, appropriate use of executive power. the question is, who decides what's appropriate? >> yeah. and i mean, it's almost laughable that a lawyer, because j.d. vance is a lawyer with a distinguished law degree, would even suggest that the courts don't, can't or shouldn't interpret the law. it's so obvious. and i think that's why some of the senators could try to sort of say, oh, this is just bluster. >> i hope that's right. because. >> you know. >> of course, the courts. >> are the ones who interpret whether the executive power is within the bounds. it would add to what mike said. we're talking about article one. article two judges are article three of the constitution. they have lifetime

tenure for a reason. it is so that the political system cannot influence them. their salaries can't even be touched without some real, you know, process. and so judges are the balls and strikes umpires. and for the most part, i think they do that. i mean, sure, we see some judges that seem to have some agendas, but overall and this would be a great time for justice roberts to come out and just say something as simple as judges should follow the rule of law in the way that the aba just said to lawyers. >> joe. >> well. >> and. >> willie, that's why if you look at what j.d. vance tweeted over the weekend, it's a bit circular because he says the courts cannot get involved and stop the president from doing what is he can do what to control the executive's legitimate powers. well, judges, determine what the president's

the executive's legitimate power is. they are the ones that do call the balls and strikes. as a senator said, you don't have spiro agnew deciding what the powers of the vice president are. you don't have richard nixon deciding what the powers of the presidency are. you have the united states supreme court making that decision. and it's. >> the same thing with the united. >> states congress. if the united states congress passes legislation. that oversteps the boundaries, and the united states supreme court will ultimately step in, or lower courts will ultimately step. >> in and. >> stop those actions. so. >> again. >> these republican senators are exactly right that that are saying and as senator rounds said at the. >> end. >> it is the courts who we will look to tell us what the legitimate powers of the executive is. >> yeah. and jd vance, vice president vance knows everything. >> you just said. >> he understands that, but he also understands that his boss believes he should have absolute power. he believes he's the ceo of a company now. he's a ceo of

a country. and when he lays down an order in the boardroom, it ought to just get done. so he's grappling with the fact that we do have checks and balances in this country. we mentioned mayor adams of new york city. the department of justice is ordering federal prosecutors now to drop corruption charges against mayor adams. the order from acting deputy attorney general emil bove would dismiss all charges against mayor adams without prejudice. that means they could be refiled in the future. the mayor's lawyer responded to the dismissal order in a statement that reads in part, the facts of the case are clear. the mayor never used his official position for personal benefit, nor did he have any role in violating campaign finance laws. despite a lot of fanfare and sensational claims, ultimately, there was no evidence presented that he broke any laws ever and, quote, the charges against the mayor have not yet officially been dismissed. for that to happen, a formal request will need to be filed in court and reviewed by a judge. so, mimi, as you know well, just to remind our viewers, this was a sprawling

corruption case involving the turkish government, favors alleged to have been given to them and returned by eric adams. you know, if you're down in the u.s. attorney's office this morning, what are you thinking? >> this has sent shockwaves through the justice department and the southern district of new york community, to put it mildly. let's talk about the what, the how and the why. because i think there are really three parts to this. the what is the order from main justice to dismiss the case. highly unusual, but not totally not never done. it's not that main justice never tells a u.s. attorney's office drop a case. an indicted case. extremely unusual. it's everything after that, though. that really is what is so kind of shocking about this. the how emil bove and no, it wasn't attorney general bondi who wrote this

memo, or even deputy attorney general todd blanche, who's not yet there. but bondi is it's emil bove, who has been the d.o.j. hatchet man. i mean, that is really been his role. and he seems to take some fanfare in it. he wrote a memo to the office that is to the u.s. attorney directing them. i've never seen anything like that. a memo, a public memo. it's such an heavy handed exercise of power. i'm not just telling you to do this. i'm making it public so that if you are going to defy me, everyone will know. and i'm going to lay out my reasons, my pretextual reasons. i mean, that's the other thing. this memo is full of pretext. everything in there is a made up excuse to try to make this look legitimate. and it is so obviously not legitimate. it is corrupt. i mean, that is really the only word for it. and that gets to the why? why are they doing this? why are they ordering the southern district

to drop a case that a grand jury indicted, that the southern district had indicated they were going to go back to the grand jury to add more, because they were uncovering more evidence. there's no hint that this is a weak case. and even if it is, there's a process for that, right? but bove says in the memo, this isn't about the merits of the case. he's admittedly he's openly admitting that he is telling them to drop it, not because of the merits of the case, but because of something else. and what's this something else? it's this political deal about immigration enforcement. >> gene robinson has a question. >> gene jump in. >> so maybe the ask is that the. >> charges be. >> dropped without. >> prejudice. >> meaning they could be refiled at some point. what sort of what does that. >> mean for mayor adams? >> i mean, is there is he waiting out a statute of limitations, for example? and then at some point, he'll be in the clear, perhaps a trump

justice department would not. seriously look at refiling these charges, but a future administration might. what is his situation? >> well. >> first of all, i mean, just to be clear, the charges haven't been dropped. we don't know what the acting interim u.s. attorney danielle sassoon will do. it is possible that she refuses to do this. it is possible that judge ho, who is the judge who will have to so order a dismissal, says, i'm not going to do this. there is very limited power to do that. but it is possible. but if all none of that happens and they go through with this. yes. mayor adams technically has these charges hanging over him. it could be state charges as well. nothing would that i can think of right now would necessarily bar a state prosecutor from bringing these same or similar type charges based on this conduct. i guess

trump could pardon him in the interim, as he did with blagojevich. you know, so there there are a lot of different paths. it doesn't clear adams. it certainly doesn't exonerate him in the way that his lawyer suggested. >> former assistant. u.s. attorney for the southern. district of. >> new york. >> mimi roca. >> thank you very much. >> and the washington post. >> eugene robinson. >> thank you as well. >> his new piece. >> about j.d. vance is available to read online. right now. let's take a look. >> at. >> some. >> of the other headlines. >> making news. >> making headlines this morning. one person is dead. >> four others injured after a. >> plane hit. >> another aircraft on the. >> ground yesterday at the scottsdale. airport in arizona. >> the plane. >> that crashed. >> upon landing belongs to. >> mötley crüe. >> frontman vince neil, but. >> he was not on board. >> an airport spokesman says. >> the arriving plane's. >> two seats of. >> two sets of landing gear. >> failed.

>> resulting in the. crash off. >> the runway. >> the cdc. confirms a nevada. dairy worker was. >> infected with a. >> strain of the bird flu that. >> was first. >> detected in. >> cows last month, the cdc says the dairy worker's only. symptom was pinkeye, and state health officials say none of the worker's. >> close contacts. >> were infected. >> and newsweek. >> has reporting. >> on the. >> chinese spy balloon that. >> crossed over into the united. >> states in 2023. >> according to. >> the reporting. >> the balloon was. >> packed with. >> american technology that could have. >> enabled it to. >> spy on. >> u.s. citizens. >> sources told. >> the. >> outlet that a. >> satellite communication module, sensors. and other. >> tech in the balloon. >> were from. >> at least five different. >> american firms. >> we'll follow that. >> still ahead on morning joe, what we're. >> learning about the fbi's. >> discovery of new documents. >> related to the assassination.

>> of president john f kennedy. >> plus, health officials. >> are reporting. >> a sudden. >> measles outbreak, mostly among children in a small county in texas. we'll talk to a leading pediatric physician as. >> more parents. >> opt out of vaccinations for their kids. >> you're watching. >> morning joe. we'll be right >> morning joe. we'll be right back. at&t has a new guarantee. because most things in business are not guaranteed. like a distraction-free work environment. -yeah,i'll circle back around. -get those steps in, kevin. your coworkers keeping things confidential. [phone ringing] oh, she's spilling all the tea. ♪♪ or office etiquette. yeah, that's not guaranteed. i know you can see me! you know what at&t guarantees? connectivity you depend on, the deals you want, and the service you deserve. can i get that logo bigger? or we'll make it right. that's the at&t guarantee. tap into etsy or we'll make it right. for home and style staples to help you set any vibe. from custom lighting

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saying enjoy your next drink without a straw that disgustingly dissolves. >> in your mouth. >> you okay? he's right on. >> this one. he he is right. >> on this one. the straws are. >> terrible. >> objectively terrible. i'm supposed. to have some weird tissue paper dissolve in my mouth. >> just because. >> turtles can't figure out. straws aren't food. >> now, don't eat the tubes. stupid turtles. >> the fbi has discovered more than 2000 records. more than 2000 records related to the assassination of president john f kennedy that were never provided to the appropriate review board. axios reports that the secret records are part of a 14,000 page collection of

documents the fbi found in a review ordered by president trump last month, the president signed an executive order requiring the release of all government records relating to the jfk assassination, as well as the assassinations of doctor martin luther king jr and robert f kennedy. let's bring in right now white house reporter for axios marc caputo, who broke the story on the jfk records. i mean, the thing that obviously jumps out to everybody and jumps out in your reporting, work. 2400 new records that were never reported to the appropriate board. you say they are, quote, closely held secrets. what, based on your reporting, what should we expect to see and what should we not expect to see? >> i think the thing that we shouldn't expect to see, whether it's these records that come out or the remaining batch of jfk records. >> that. >> have yet. >> to. >> be released and should have been released. >> in 2017. >> as there's probably not a. >> smoking gun memo. >> from some sort of conspirator saying, hey, here's how we're

all going to get together and assassinate president kennedy. now, that's every expert i talked to say, it's not going to show that. but the totality of the evidence that's still out there, that's still pending. and that really hasn't been uncovered, or at least released by one government entity to another to be released to the public, shows that the official narrative that people were told early on wasn't quite accurate. now, exactly who killed kennedy, how it happened and what sort of conspiracy there was. i don't think. >> we'll. ever know that. >> but what we do know is that for a long time, the government, government entities, government agents and government agencies have not told the truth about the full extent of what they knew about lee harvey oswald and when. >> so, mark 2400 records, 14,000 pages of documents. i guess the question is, why were they not provided to the appropriate board? >> as you report? >> great question. >> this is a subject in. >> part of more broadly of a lawsuit from a group called the mary ferrell foundation, which.

>> in. >> 2022 sued the federal government, saying under the jfk records act that was passed unanimously by congress in 1992, all agencies were supposed to turn over all jfk related assassination documents to an assassination review board, and then it was supposed to go to the national archives, and then it was all supposed to be released by 2017. now, some agencies were better than others at releasing these. the cia has apparently been the worst, but in some cases, agencies didn't even release the information to the assassination review board to begin the process. so kind of theoretically or symbolically, there could be file cabinets. so to speak, boxes in various corners of various government entities that have these sorts of records that are lying around. some people might not know about it and therefore aren't disclosing it. other people might know about it and aren't intentionally disclosing it. we just don't know. >> so. >> mark. >> can we. clarify one thing from this latest drop. of these

documents. >> and the coverage. >> of these documents? did the warren commission have access to all of these documents that we're talking about? >> oh, no. no. one of the more interesting things about the long history of the jfk assassination story was that oliver stone's movie, jfk prompted this public outcry of like, okay, what is in all of these records? what really happened? and so that's what led to the jfk records act. and as a result of that, records act, tens of thousands of documents were released and records were released that showed there were a lot of suspicious things that were never told to the warren commission. and i just referenced that lawsuit earlier from the mary ferrell foundation. they've pointed out, for instance, that though the jfk records act requires all of these assassination related documents to be released, there's a character who plays a major role in this named george

joannides, who was a cia agent, or the head of station in miami, which was a hotbed of anti-castro activity in 1963. and he also was running a new orleans based group that came into contact with lee harvey oswald before the kennedy assassination. none of that was ever released. then, years later, joannides is appointed by the cia to be a liaison with the house committee investigating the jfk assassination, and joannides never tells them, hey, by the way, i ran this shadowy group in new orleans that was a hotbed of anti-castro activity, and we actually were in contact with lee harvey oswald before the assassination. never mentions it. those documents, his file still has yet to be released to the national archives, and therefore aren't even in the trove of records that are supposed to be released, were supposed to be released in 2017, and are. >> now supposed to. >> be released in full under president trump's order that was issued january 23rd. >> so do.

>> you suspect that those records will be released now? and also, you had made reference in your story to a mobster who had suggested that they had been responsible for the kennedy assassination. will that be part of the records as well? >> the most recent release that is supposed. to happen? i don't think so, because those aren't in the collection, so to speak. that's maintained by the national archives, and these are jailhouse recordings that were made. the transcripts were released, but groups like the mary ferrell foundation and researchers in the jfk say. all right, the government hasn't been a really honest actor in disclosing all of this information. let's actually hear the jailhouse recordings. and so far, they've basically been told, well, you know, no. so i don't have a lot of faith that we'll ever find out fully what happened or that every agency in government will come forth with the records they have, in part because some don't know they have them, and in part because there is just this belief that this information should not be

released to the public, because there are people in the intelligence community who believe that though this assassination happened 61 years ago, there are, quote sources and methods that will be released and hurt national security. if people know the full story and see all the records. i don't believe that. neither does president trump, but we'll see. >> mark's new. >> reporting is. >> available online. >> white house reporter for axios mark caputo, thank you very much for coming on this morning. we appreciate it. coming up, we'll speak with vanity fair's molly jong-fast about her new piece that dives into president trump's war on government spending. plus, new york times editorial. >> board member. >> mara gay joins us with a look at the. >> top two. democrats who are. >> now tasked with leading. >> the party in. >> trump's second. >> term, and why she writes, it's been off. >> to a. >> rocky start. >> rocky start. >> morning joe will be tamra, izzy and emma... they respond to emails with phone-calls... and they don't "circle back" they're already there.

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>> cook county. >> general say. >> the combination. >> of an unusually nasty. >> flu. >> strain and falling vaccination rates is driving. >> the spread. >> we've seen a lot of sick. >> people in. >> general compared. >> to previous years. >> seems like they're having more respiratory issues. >> according to. >> the cdc, at least 44 states and washington, d.c. are reporting high or very. >> high. >> levels of. >> influenza like illnesses in the dallas. metro area. >> positive flu. >> tests jumped. >> 30% in one week. the virus spreading easily. in closed environments. >> like offices and classrooms. >> cases soaring. >> among children. >> when kids truly are. >> sick. >> they just have. >> that look in their eyes. >> and there's no arguing that. >> in nebraska, sarah christiansen's ten year old daughter aubree came. >> down with the. >> virus and ended up taking it to the pediatrician. and we did the slew of tests, and influenza b, unfortunately came back positive. >> the surge. >> even leading to. >> shortages at pharmacies. >> we're having a hard time keeping in a lot of our

over-the-counters. the flu numbers are so high that it's really hard to even keep the supply up for people who are being tested positive. >> for it. >> the cdc estimates. >> there have been at. >> least 24 million flu. cases so far. >> this year, with 310,000 hospitalizations and 13,000 deaths. >> including 57 children. >> experts fear by the season's end, the overall death toll could hit 30,000. they say. >> it's not too late. >> to get a flu shot. they're effective. >> within a week and crucial in protecting you and your loved ones. >> not only is it going to reduce. >> your chance. of getting sick. >> but if you do get. >> sick, it's going to reduce. >> the. symptoms that you have and. >> decrease. >> the chance of. >> you. >> passing it. >> on to a loved one. >> nbc's maggie vespa reporting there meanwhile, a small county in west texas is dealing with a sudden increase in cases. of measles. the 15 confirmed infections are mostly in school age children in gaines county, which has one of the highest rates of vaccine exemptions in the state. it's just the latest in a recent spike of measles

cases, including in atlanta, where health officials are working to contain an infection among two unvaccinated family members. research shows a population achieves herd immunity from measles when more than 95% of people are fully vaccinated, preventing the disease from spreading. but the associated press points out, during the covid pandemic, national vaccination rates for kindergartners fell to 93% and remain there. many pockets of the country have far lower rates even than that. this map shows the percentage of vaccination rates for measles, mumps and rubella from 2023 to 2024. the dark orange the states there represent areas where less than 90% of the population is protected. the drop is driven in part by record numbers of kids getting vaccination waivers. joining us now, doctor adam ratner. he's the head of pediatric infectious diseases at nyu and author of the new book, booster shots the urgent lessons of measles and the uncertain future of children's health. we will note doctor ratner speaking

with us this morning in his personal capacity, not as a representative of nyu. doctor, thanks for being with us this morning. we appreciate it. your book couldn't come at a better time. right now, when you. >> hear that sick. >> headline of that like that out of texas. what alarm bells go off? >> it is very. >> alarming and. >> sadly predictable. >> this is. >> as you alluded to. >> a trend that's been in the works. >> since before covid, but really was supercharged during covid. and measles is the most contagious disease that we know. it's more contagious than flu, more contagious than covid, more contagious than ebola. and it. the reason that we need such a high level of vaccination in the population to control. measles is because it is so very contagious. and so when you see those vaccination levels in kindergartners dropping down. >> below 95%, and. >> in some places like in. >> gaines. >> county, texas. >> where they're. >> at. about 80%, that is a.

recipe for. >> a. >> measles outbreak. so where do you trace the beginning of this skepticism about vaccines? obviously, we have a man named robert f kennedy jr, who's about to become head of the national health service's likely to be confirmed, who is expected, to put it mildly, extreme skepticism about vaccines. when and how did all this start? >> so there's been vaccine hesitancy and questions about vaccines for as long as there have been vaccines dating back to the smallpox vaccine, but it really got supercharged around the time of the andrew wakefield paper, which was in the late 1990s. >> and this was. >> the later found to be fraudulent and horribly conflicted paper. that that. >> made a link. >> that is false between. >> autism and. vaccination specifically, specifically, the measles, mumps, rubella vaccination. >> and that idea has stuck, and it is much easier to scare people than it is to unscare people. and so. the once

questions were raised about vaccines, and. >> once there was this kind of sticky idea. >> out there, it's been very hard to debunk, even though. >> there have been. >> many, many studies that have disproven the link between mmr and autism. >> so tell. >> us that the. premise of. >> your book, booster shots. >> as it especially. >> as it pertains. >> to what you call the uncertain future. >> of children's. >> health, right? >> so i talk mainly about. >> measles in the. >> book. >> but the book is about much more than just measles because because measles is so contagious, it's the first warning sign that we see. >> when something has. >> gone wrong with our public health systems. >> what i mean by. >> that is you see measles. outbreaks first, and. >> those are often followed by. >> outbreaks of other. >> contagious diseases. >> that are vaccine preventable. and so. i would predict that we're going to see surges. >> in whooping cough. pertussis and other. vaccine preventable. diseases and hopefully. >> not things like polio. but i worry about. that as well. and

so i. >> think the. >> main point of the book is that all of the progress that we've. >> made in child health and. >> child. mortality over the last century, and it's been a lot of progress is at risk. >> and is. >> is fragile progress. >> and it's happening. >> right now as we see. in texas. >> katty kay has a question. >> katty. jump in. >> doctor, it seems like we've almost been victims. >> of our own success, that. >> because we don't know people. who have around us necessarily who have these childhood diseases, we somehow think we don't need to take the shots anymore. have we had a kind of case of collective amnesia because of the success of the vaccines. >> 100%, and that that. >> is exactly the. >> right way to think. >> about it. vaccines are wonderful. >> they are great at making nothing. >> happen. >> meaning that. they are great at keeping kids. well, the problem is, when you prevent a. >> disease, you. >> don't see that. you don't. >> it just looks like real life. it looks. >> like children being healthy. >> you don't know who you've helped. you don't know who would have been in the hospital or the intensive care.

>> unit. >> or who would have died from measles. and so we now have a generation of parents who've grown up where they've been vaccinated. >> the generation. >> before them was vaccinated. and their kids, for the most part, have been vaccinated. and it's very easy for someone to say, i've never known someone with measles. i've never known someone with polio. >> why are we. >> bothering to vaccinate. >> against this? >> but of course, the reason that we don't see. >> this, the. >> the success that we enjoy is because of vaccines. >> yeah. mike. >> could you do america a favor? look into that camera. you're a pediatric infectious disease specialist. look into that camera and tell parents. home right. >> now getting their kids ready for school. >> perhaps why. >> their children. >> ought to be vaccinated. vaccines prevent. >> important diseases. >> in children. they prevent. >> things that can kill children, things. >> that can end up with kids in the hospital. and so there's a direct personal reason to vaccinate kids. and there's also a community reason to vaccinate

children. >> we vaccinate to protect. >> ourselves and our family, and we also. >> vaccinate to. protect the. >> people around us. and so those are the. >> two main. >> reasons to vaccinate. >> the new book. is booster shots the urgent lessons. >> of measles and the uncertain. >> future of. >> children's health, and it's on. sale now. doctor adam ratner, thank you very much. >> thank you so much. >> congratulations on the book. >> thank you for writing it. >> coming up, democratic senator elizabeth warren of massachusetts will be our guest this morning to discuss the white house's effort to shut. >> down the. >> consumer financial protection. >> bureau and. >> the impact. >> this could. >> have on americans. >> morning joe will be right >> morning joe will be right back. ♪♪ did you take your vitamin today? that's my job. ♪♪ nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand.

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obligations. >> get the. >> real value from your. >> life. >> insurance when you need it. with abacus. >> they became to. everyone who knew them. >> simply tully. >> and kate. >> and for. >> more than 30 years. >> that friendship was the bulkhead of their lives. things are hard over at her house. >> in. >> ways that you might not understand. i'm going to be there for you no matter what. we go. >> out, we're going to live together, and we're. >> going to be famous journalists. >> i'm a. >> damn legend. >> in. >> the making. >> that's right. >> you are. >> that was from. >> netflix's hit 2021 tv series. firefly lane, based on the popular. >> novel of the same. >> name by author. >> kristin hannah. the series,

which stars actress. katherine heigl, follows the story of two best friends. >> who become inseparable. >> throughout 30. years of. >> highs and lows. >> kristin hannah is best. known for. >> writing novels. >> like firefly lane. >> about ordinary. >> women facing extraordinary situations. all while. >> showing the. >> incredible bonds they. >> form with each other. >> that includes. >> her number. >> one new york. >> times bestseller. the nightingale. which next thursday is. >> tuesday is celebrating. >> its 10th. >> anniversary with a new. deluxe edition of the book. >> and it's so beautiful. >> we're going to. >> show. >> you in a second. the nightingale, which has sold, get. >> this over. >> 10 million. >> copies worldwide, tells the coming of age story of two sisters in nazi occupied. >> france during. >> world war two. >> and their incredible struggle to survive the german. >> occupation of. >> their country. >> and kristin hannah joins. >> us now. also with us for the

conversation is forbes. >> women editor maggie mcgrath. >> maggie, thanks. >> for. >> coming along. so beautiful. just in in. >> its presentation. >> this is the book. i'm curious. you've written more than 20 novels. >> how did this story. >> come to you? >> i know, i. >> know, we're ten years into it, but for those who haven't gotten a copy for the other 10 million yet. >> well, i. >> had written. >> a novel. >> a. >> few years before, set during. >> world war. >> two in. >> leningrad. >> and in researching that novel, i came across. >> the story. >> of a young woman named isabelle de jong. >> she was. >> 19 years old. >> and she and her father created. >> one of the. >> first escape. >> routes out of nazi occupied germany. and as a big reader and as a, you know, a historical fiction reader and nonfiction reader, i was i became really angry that i didn't know this story of female heroism, and i didn't. know the importance.

>> of this story. >> and so i really. >> wanted that was. >> kind of the beginning. of me focusing on ordinary women doing extraordinary things, whose stories have been forgotten throughout history. >> ordinary women. >> in extraordinary circumstances. >> i would argue. >> as a fan. >> of your books. >> that you also. >> throw your characters. >> a gantlet. >> of challenges. >> on top of. >> their situations. >> so can you. >> talk about. >> what it. >> is you. >> want to impart to the world about women's grit. >> and determination. >> through your stories? >> well. >> i think. >> that in fiction, you know, like in life, character is revealed and honed by adversity, and you really find out. >> what. >> you're made of when you're in your darkest times. and so it's really important to me to show women standing together and standing alone and, and finding their voices in times when they seem to have been forgotten. >> yeah. >> we have katty kay with us. >> and she has a question. >> katie. >> kristin. >> you put your women in

different periods of history, different places. there's leningrad, there's world war two, france, the great depression. is there a commonality throughout history? do you think that characterizes the way women are with each other? our relationships with each other? >> you know, i think i. >> mean, that's something i've really learned as i've gotten older. >> the. >> fundamental importance of female friendship. and i think whether it's the four winds or. nightingale or the women, it is so important to watch these women come together and sort of bring their strength together and. >> and fight. >> for the lives they want, and fight to have their voices be heard. >> so i am. >> proud to. >> tell our. >> viewers that you. >> are on. >> our 50 over. >> 50 list. >> 2023 maggie 20. >> right? >> yeah, we're in our third, fourth. >> year now, so. >> finding so many incredible women and i'm curious because.

>> at the know your value. >> platform and for 50 over 50 we talk a lot about career pivots. you went from lawyer to writer to. bestselling writer advice for women about making that pivot and taking that jump, making that move. >> you know, it's. >> so important. >> because we. >> go through these. >> different phases in our lives and. >> we have different goals. >> we have different struggles. whether, you know, i started writing as the mother of a newborn. and so, you know, i became a writer because i wanted to be a stay at home mom. and i couldn't do. >> that, you know, in the in the late 80s. >> as a lawyer. and then as i got older. >> i wanted. >> to write about women's place in the broader world. and i just think. >> it's i. >> think it's so important that we find our voices. >> because and. >> that's what you guys are doing, too. >> because it. >> the world tends to stifle us

and history tends to forget us. and coming together and doing things like you guys are doing, it reminds women, especially younger women, to. to embark on that journey. well, you have found tremendous success in. >> highlighting the stories of. >> forgotten women. >> and the women. >> the book. >> has been on the new york. >> times best seller list. >> for over a year. >> which is remarkable. so we want. to know what's next. >> for you. and also what is the status. >> of the movie version. >> of that story? >> and also the nightingale, which. >> there had been. >> reports of a production. with the. >> fanning sisters starring? yes. >> the movie thing with the nightingale. we were ready to start shooting with the fannings, and then covid hit and then the strikes hit. so it's been. >> a little. >> bit of trouble getting back on its feet, but i think we're working towards it now. and the women is in development at warner brothers. >> bestselling author. >> kristin hannah, thank. >> you. so much. >> the 10th anniversary deluxe.

edition of the nightingale comes out next tuesday. >> february 18th. >> maggie mcgrath and katty kay, thank. >> you both. >> as well. and still ahead on morning joe. >> house minority leader. >> hakeem jeffries says. >> republicans have a. three part bait and switch plan that they're in. >> the. >> process of carrying out. we'll play for you. his comments. >> from the. >> house floor. >> and the futures board. >> is in. >> the red ahead. of a key address. >> later this. >> morning from the fed chair. cnbc's andrew. ross sorkin. >> will join us with insight on that and president. >> trump's new tariffs. >> 25% tariffs. >> that's all coming. >> up on morning joe. >> you'll be back. >> emus can't help people. >> customize and save with liberty. >> mutual. >> and doug. >> well, i'll. >> be only. >> pay for what. >> you need. >> liberty, liberty. >> liberty, liberty. >> here you go. >> is there any way to get a.

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design for thoughtful living thuma. >> i think. >> that what trump should do, like if i was giving him one. piece of advice fire every single mid-level bureaucrat, every civil servant in. >> the. >> administrative state. replace them with our people. >> and when the courts. >> because you. >> will get taken. >> to court. and when the courts stop, you stand. >> before the. >> country like. >> andrew jackson did. >> and say the. >> chief justice has made his ruling. now let him enforce it. >> okay, there you go. >> little precursor. >> there for you. that was then. us senate candidate jd vance giving. donald trump advice for a possible second term. it's very. similar to a social media post from the current vice president questioning. >> the power of the judiciary branch. >> we're going to go through all of that and play for you. the reaction. >> from republican senators.

>> meanwhile. >> we're seeing that defiance. play out in the real. >> world with a. >> judge accusing trump, the trump administration, of ignoring a court order on. >> the. >> federal funding freeze. we'll bring you the very latest on. >> that legal fight. plus, new york city mayor. eric adams will not be going to trial in april. after the justice department. >> ordered the federal. >> corruption charges. >> against him to be dropped. we'll get insight on that. move from the trump administration, and. >> we'll go through the. >> president's latest. comments on the cease. >> fire agreement between hamas and israel. >> giving the. >> terror group. >> an ultimatum. >> good morning. >> and welcome. >> to morning joe. it's only tuesday, guys. february 11th. >> willie is here. joe, along with joe, willie and me. we have the host of way too early. >> ali vitali. >> and the host of msnbc's inside with. >> jen. >> psaki. jen psaki and we coordinated colors. >> jen psaki and i. >> we left ali out.

>> of this. >> so joe guys. >> joe. >> where. >> do you want to begin this morning. >> well we have so much to talk about. let's circle back to willie though who wasn't with his yesterday talking about the super bowl. first of all willie, the numbers came out 126 million people on average. watch the super bowl on sunday. well obviously the biggest, the biggest audience for any super bowl ever. obviously, one of the biggest television events ever. but yeah. and what a game. >> yeah. well the amazing thing about that number 126 million peaked at 137, i think, or 135 something like that is it was a terrible game and you had that many fans that it peaked in the second quarter, 130 million for the halftime show, and then dwindled it a little bit down the stretch. but again, these communal experiences, the afc championship game, people want to sit and watch things together. and they did again on sunday. just extraordinary. and also you consider, as we always do with the super bowl, that people don't necessarily even watch in their own home, that

you go somewhere to watch it, somebody else's house, you go to a bar, whatever it is. we keep setting records and we talk about this age of fragmented media, except with live sports. >> and the. >> nfl, especially. >> mika. >> yeah. >> for sure. >> so let's get to the news. a federal judge in rhode island said the. >> trump administration. >> has violated his. >> order to lift a sweeping. freeze on federal spending and has ordered the government to restore the funds immediately. this is the. >> first time. >> in trump's second. term that a judge. >> has accused the trump. >> administration to be disobeying a judicial mandate. >> the ruling. comes in. >> response to a lawsuit. >> brought by. >> 22 attorneys general in. >> democratic led states, after. >> a wide ranging. >> omb directive caused chaos. >> and confusion. >> across the country, the trump administration said they will. >> appeal the decision. yesterday. >> the. >> president took. >> a swipe. >> at the judicial branch, saying that there have.

>> been some. >> very bad rulings. >> and that it's. >> a shame. >> to see it. this comes. >> amid overall concerns the trump. administration will not comply with court orders. from judges who have. ruled against the president's agenda. >> that's because of. >> a social media post on. >> sunday from the. >> vice president, j.d. vance, who wrote in part, judges aren't allowed to control. >> the executive's legitimate power. yesterday, republican. >> senator tommy. >> tuberville was. >> asked whether. >> the white house. >> has a right. >> to circumvent. >> judges who are halting executive actions. the trump ally. >> said. >> quote. >> i think. >> they do. >> but here's. >> how other. >> republican senators responded. >> to that question. >> well, i mean. >> the courts obviously are the sort of. >> the branch. >> of our government that calls balls and strikes and referees. >> and i think. >> that they've got an important role to play. so i expect that to continue. and i expect the court to play the important role of. ensuring that, you know,

that the laws in the country are followed. when you have a lawsuit, somebody wins and somebody loses. but i support the. process and i support the legitimacy of the federal judiciary. if you disagree and many people have disagreed with opinions before, that's why god made courts of appeal. and that's why god. made the us supreme court. but you're never going to hear me. attack the legitimacy of the federal judiciary. >> well. >> i don't. >> even think we have. >> seen that yet. >> so it's a hypothetical. >> jd vance didn't say anything about anything that was not appropriate. he's saying on the appropriate use of executive powers. i think that's what he meant. i think it's a very, very clear line between the powers that are there that are that are appropriate. this president. >> is saying, i believe. >> i have the authority you find out in a court of law, and if

they are appropriate, you move. >> forward with them. >> and should follow whatever the court's decision ultimately is. >> we have to. >> we will. >> follow the decisions of the court. and i don't think there's been anybody saying no, of course. and, well, it's one of the things i said yesterday. it's like there, though, though it was meant to troll. and though jd vance has said and we heard it a couple of years ago on that podcast, that he thought she should just run over the third branch. yeah, like. andrew jackson, the united states senators, i would say, other than maybe tommy tuberville and maybe a handful of others. overwhelming majority of senators are going to say what an overwhelming majority of members of congress are going to say, which is you have to follow the court's decisions and the fact that anybody would even suggest that you don't is, yeah, it's okay for us to say that's shocking, that they missed, i

guess, civics class starting in fourth or fifth grade, or maybe they didn't have it. maybe that's the problem, but. as senator rounds said, it is the courts we listen to and. >> they define. >> what is legitimate. >> they define. >> what is not legitimate. sometimes the president likes it, sometimes the president doesn't. and yesterday we went through four years of federal rulings where the federal courts enjoined, stopped or. overturned what president joe biden did. >> yeah. and we saw just yesterday we'll go through some of it, a flurry of court action of stopping some of these policies and these executive orders put in place by the trump administration. and almost everyone we heard there is a lawyer, joe, and we've talked about this. jd vance went to yale law school. he was on the yale law review. john kennedy went to prestigious schools. they're all lawyers. they can't say anything other with a straight face. i hope then we have three co-equal branches of

government. if you don't like the way a court rules, we've got the court of appeals you can go to, and then you can go up to the supreme court if you think it ought to go that far. that's just the way the system works, and anything else ought to be noise. we'll see again how they hold up under pressure from donald trump. but for now, at least a handful of them, they're saying the right things. let's bring in nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian and msnbc legal analyst danny cevallos. guys, good morning, danny, start with you. what do you make of that back and forth there? jd vance saying, well, we don't always have to listen to what the courts say. and some other senators pushing back on that idea or trying to. interpret for jd vance what they hope he meant by that. what did you hear? >> yeah. historically, this has happened before. i think jd vance even referred to this situation way back. president andrew jackson refused to enforce an order by the supreme court that resolved a clash between the cherokee nation and the state of georgia. and history's lesson is, well, not a whole lot happens to a president or an administration who refuses

to follow an order, because we operate on this kind of trust that the president will do that. and while it's probably apocryphal that jackson said he has his order, meaning the supreme court, let's see them enforce it. it's a scary quote, if true, because it's really an unspoken thing that the courts don't really have their own armies. they don't have a powerful arm to enforce their orders. they rely on the government working properly and not defying them. so it is a scary concept. presidents may have that power. maybe it's not so much that they have that power, it's just that no one can stop them from not following the court's. >> ali. >> ken, i do have a question for you, though, because although senators are talking about this as theoretical and hypothetical, even as some of them are saying they're uncomfortable or trying to explain away what the vice president and others have seemingly suggested, you are seeing this federal judge up in rhode island saying that the trump administration is already

balking at the court's order, not unfreezing the frozen spending and federal grant money. so push is seemingly already coming to shove here. >> that's absolutely right, ali. taking us out of the realm of a theoretical discussion into the practical and the real. here you have this federal judge in rhode island saying very explicitly that we believe you are i believe you're violating my order, that you stop this spending freeze and resume funding to places like the national institutes of health, because i think that's unconstitutional. and he began his ruling with a quote from a supreme court decision that essentially says those who defy federal court orders risk criminal contempt. now, he didn't explicitly threaten the trump administration with criminal contempt in the rest of the ruling, but that was certainly the implication of opening that way. and it raises a whole host of questions, which is how does a judge hold an administration in criminal contempt? i mean, who do you you can't jail the president, obviously. in fact, if we remember, you know, donald trump

was held in criminal contempt by the new york judge in his criminal case, but that judge was very reluctant to mete out that ultimate sanction of jail time. it didn't happen when he was the ex-president. it's not going to happen when he's the president. so what are the remedies? i mean, we're gaming this out yesterday. can they are they going to throw some hapless justice department lawyer who happens to be in the courtroom, throw that person in jail? do they levy fines? what would be the point of fining the federal government, which has unlimited resources? so we're really at that point where it's starting to become a practical question, not just a theoretical question. and the other issue is it's really difficult for the judge to get the facts when you have a government agency and you know, the plaintiffs aren't aren't allowed inside, and you have elon musk and his people and they're saying, well, we are spending the money and folks are saying, well, we're not getting the money. so it's a really difficult situation, guys. >> so it was good to. >> hear some of the republicans saying, you're not going to hear. >> us thwarting. >> the law. but at the same time. >> danny, if you look at the front.

>> page of the new york times right now. >> it says, basically. >> we're in a constitutional. >> crisis, even. >> though there. >> isn't a complete, clear definition, citing different deans of. >> law schools from. >> the courts across. >> the country and experts. >> talking about. >> being in this crisis. >> because of. >> the flurry of things that trump has done from birthright citizenship. freezing federal spending, shutting down agencies, removing. >> leaders from agencies. >> the systematic, unconstitutional and illegal acts. create a constitutional. >> crisis. >> one legal expert said. the distinctive feature of the current situation. several legal scholars and said, and it is. it's chaotic flood of activity and collectively amounts to a. radically new conception of presidential power. it is a constitutional crisis when the president of the united states doesn't. care what the constitution says, regardless of whether congress or the courts resist. up until now, while presidents. might engage in particular. >> acts that. >> were unconstitutional, there

was never a sense that, you know, the constitution was meaningless. and the bottom line is the flurry and the. >> chaos of. >> it may. >> make it so that the courts won't even have the time to. react to that. >> you say what? >> i think we need to be careful with the term constitutional crisis because, as i define it, that would be a situation where the constitution doesn't have an answer and there is a pressing conflict. the flurry of executive orders, the chaos that i think doesn't get us to crisis. yet it is irritating for the courts. it is challenging. it could lead to a serious problem if, as you said, they become too congested with dealing with these orders. >> coming. >> the crisis occurs and we've already talked about it at the moment when there is a court order and the president or the administration refuses to follow it, because historically, we don't really have a clear answer for what to do in that situation. on the first the first half of it, issuing a

bunch of executive orders, not only do we know that the courts can handle it, they already did this back in 2017. this is the same m.o. the trump administration then would just fire out executive orders. it felt like they weren't even spell checking them. and then they would let the courts prune them like the proverbial bonsai tree, or they would just withdraw them and go back to the drawing board. it's probably not the most efficient way of doing it. it's chaotic. as you said, it's problematic. but constitutional crisis for me is the moment the court issues an order and the administration resists. you could say that the last notable occurrence was when nixon initially refused to comply with a subpoena issued by the supreme court. eventually he capitulated. but history is full of these near crises examples. the question is, what do we do going forward? >> and the funding freeze is just one case of the courts pushing back. we have a long list in front of us. this morning, the buyout pause was extended by a federal judge. the birthright citizenship contesting that was blocked

again, funding of nih that was cut by the administration. that's been blocked again by a judge. so you're seeing the courts stepping in here. we'll see what happens next. meanwhile, the department of justice is ordering federal prosecutors to drop corruption charges against new york city mayor eric adams. the order from acting deputy attorney general emil bove would dismiss all charges against mayor adams without prejudice, meaning they could be refiled in the future. adams was charged with one count of conspiracy to receive campaign contributions from foreign nationals, and to commit wire fraud and bribery. two counts of soliciting campaign contributions from foreign nationals, and one count of soliciting and accepting a bribe, nbc reports. in a memo, bove argued that the indictment of adams in september came too close to this year's mayoral primary in june, and that it limited adams's ability to aid president donald trump's crackdown on immigrants and to fight crime. bove, without citing specific evidence, also suggested the charges were

politically motivated. it cannot be ignored that mayor adams criticized the prior administration's immigration policies before the charges were filed, he wrote. bove said adams case would be reviewed by a trump appointed u.s. attorney, but not until after the general election for mayor in november. it's important to note the charges against the mayor have not yet been officially dismissed. for that to happen, a formal request will need to be filed in court and reviewed by a judge. mayor adams's lawyer responded to the dismissal order in a statement that reads in part, the facts of the case are clear. the mayor never used his official position for personal benefit, nor did he have any role in violating campaign finance laws. despite a lot of fanfare and sensational claims. ultimately, there was no evidence presented that he broke any laws ever. end quote. and here are the front pages of the new york tabloids. >> this morning. >> new york daily news simply saying off the hook. and remember, this involved the nation of turkey. so quit cold turkey. so, ken delaney, we should also add to this

conversation that eric adams has courted donald trump very hard to get to this day. he went down just days before the inauguration to mar-a-lago. he raced down to the inauguration itself. he has met many times with donald trump priming the pump for this moment. and now he's off the hook for now. >> yeah. and it's easy to make light of this, willie. but i got to tell you, it's i feel like a broken record, but it's hard to overstate what an earthquake of a story this is in justice department circles, because you just don't see this. they explicitly said they were not dropping the case because of the facts or the law, that it was no reflection on the legal theories or the work of the career prosecutors who brought the case. and so what was their grounds? well, it was, you know, charges without evidence that the u.s. attorney who had been appointed by president biden, you know, was using the case to burnish his image. and also some concerns that the trial would take place during the new york primary season, even though the

indictment was brought nine months before the new york primary. so, look, i mean, this what this is starting to look like is a political decision to drop charges against someone who, as you said, has been courting donald trump and the trump administration and who has claimed that he was persecuted by the biden administration because of his stance on immigration. and they even said, actually, in their justification, that another issue they were concerned about was that he had lost his security clearance because he was under these this criminal cloud and therefore couldn't cooperate with federal authorities in immigration enforcement. so, look, this is this is not done. i mean, it's, you know, it's creating the impression that, you know, there's a biden justice department and a trump justice department. these decisions are made for political reasons. the southern district of new york is full of career prosecutors who are apolitical. and they brought this case based on the facts and the law. there's a mountain of evidence, much of which they revealed in a speaking indictment that accuses eric

adams of soliciting bribes and favors from the government of turkey and then, in turn, doing the government of turkey favors using his official position, including getting the approval for a building that the fire department said was unsafe to occupy in new york city. and so here you have a situation where there the main justice is ordering the southern district to drop this case. it hasn't been dropped yet. but then saying that it's being done without prejudice, meaning the charges could be refiled at any time. well, what position does that leave mayor eric adams in? he is now beholden to the trump justice department. those charges are hanging over him. so this is a really, really extraordinary situation. >> and another case, mayor adams, knowing what a lot of people know, that flattery will get you everywhere with donald trump. go down, flatter him, court him, support his policies, and you'll get what you want out of the deal. but how disheartening is this for prosecutors building cases? as we could say about all the january 6th prosecutors as well? >> yeah, the memo itself says, well, this has nothing to do

with the line prosecutors who worked on these cases. it's more about management. but that's got to be a hollow compliment to the line prosecutors who worked on the case, because when you do, you live that case. and these are there's a difference between the line prosecutors and the appointed positions. but i got to tell you, willie, never in the history of memos have there been so much in the way of subtext between the lines. it's two pages and there's so much in there. among them, the smarter thing for the administration might have been to just make this memo three lines dismiss the case against mayor adams. it's the explanation that's going to subject them to a ton of criticism. and if anyone else is concerned that this is a quid pro quo between eric adams in exchange for him helping with immigration enforcement and dismissing the case, that's not me saying it. the memo itself worries about that in a footnote, saying that is not what this is, we promise you. but critics are going to say that's exactly what this seems like. and the magic word that

you seized on, willie, is the word without without prejudice does mean. and the memo says that they could bring these charges again, which normally wouldn't have that much meaning. but in this case, because they also mentioned the things that they want eric adams to help the administration with. >> yeah. >> the implication is going to draw a lot of criticism. again, my recommendation would have been make this three lines dismiss the case. it's the explanation that's going to get them in trouble. >> nbc news and msnbc legal analyst danny cevallos. >> and nbc. >> news justice correspondent ken dilanian. >> thank you both. >> very much. >> for. >> your reporting. >> and analysis. >> so. >> jen psaki. >> let's talk big picture. now and. >> the democrats. >> what should they be doing right now? what are the options? >> well, look, i think in washington it's important to remember they're in the minority in the house and the senate. so they have not as much leverage as i think most people who are rooting for them to push back think they might have. but there are still things they can do. we've seen this threat of a potential to shut the government down. i'm not suggesting

shutting the government down is good politics. it's certainly not. but it is a negotiating moment. the deadline is march 15th, march 14th, where they could use that to try to put some pressure on mike johnson and republicans. we've seen them much more active and participating in peaceful protests. we've seen them showing up at agencies where elon musk and his team is getting in. the doj's team is getting to business they shouldn't be getting into. so we've seen some activity. there needs to be more, i think. but that's one of the ways those are a couple of the ways that they can be active. the last thing i would say, mika, is we've seen some some tried attempt this. there needs to be a little bit more fearlessness of calling out when republicans are behaving in ways that are contradictory to their own values, that are contradictory to what they've believed for some time on some of these nominees, and that are contradictory to what the american public really wants. and there are a lot of opportunities to do that with what musk is doing with some of these nominees. i'd love to see more of that. we're seeing kind

of kind of inklings of it at this point. >> all right, still ahead on morning joe, we'll get the latest. >> from paris. >> where vice president jd. >> vance is attending a summit on artificial intelligence. >> plus. >> president trump elaborates. >> on his. >> proposal to take over. gaza and gives hamas an ultimatum. we'll play for those. >> comments you're watching morning joe. >> we're back in 90s. >> child. >> of god. >> and here we go. >> consumer cellular. >> uses the same towers. >> as. >> big wireless, but then. >> passes the savings. >> on to you. >> so i get. >> the same fast nationwide. >> the same fast nationwide. >> coverage if i switch. dry eyes still feel gritty, rough, or tired? with miebo, eyes can feel ♪ miebo ♪ ♪ ohh yeah ♪ miebo is the only prescription dry eye drop that forms a protective layer for the number one cause of dry eye: too much tear evaporation. for relief that's ♪ miebo ♪ ♪ ohh yeah ♪ remove contact lenses before using miebo.

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>> welcome back. >> vice president j.d. >> vance is in paris this morning for an artificial intelligence summit. the associated press. reports that. vance took a moment during his address to warn global leaders and tech ceos. >> that. >> quote. excessive regulation would kill the growing. >> ai industry. >> joining us. >> from paris is nbc. >> news international. >> correspondent raf sanchez. raf, what. >> more can you tell. >> us about vance's address? >> well, mika, this was vice president vance's debut on the world stage. >> he was speaking. >> to an audience. >> that included. >> french president. >> emmanuel macron. >> the. >> prime minister. >> of india. >> senior leaders. >> from china and. >> other countries. and he used the opportunity to deliver. >> a full. >> throated america first. vision of. >> artificial intelligence. >> he said that he is. >> determined. >> and the trump administration. >> is determined. >> to see the united. >> states remain. the world's.

>> ai superpower. he warned. >> against any efforts to choke off to. >> overregulate the american. ai industry. >> and he spoke. >> in pretty stark terms. i want you to take. >> a listen. >> the united states of america is the leader in ai, and our administration plans to keep it that way. we invite your countries to work with us and to follow that model. if it makes sense for your nations. >> however. >> the trump administration is troubled by reports that some foreign governments are considering tightening the. screws on u.s. tech companies with international footprints. now, america cannot and will not accept that. >> now. >> you heard. >> him there saying the united states is open. >> to cooperation. >> but that it will be on american terms. when it. >> comes to regulation. interestingly, mika, he did not name. china in his. >> address, but china has been very much hanging.

>> over this summit. >> silicon valley, washington capitals. >> throughout europe, very rattled by the. success of. >> that chinese startup. >> deep seek, which appears to produce a pretty sophisticated. >> ai model at a fraction. >> of the cost. >> of western companies. >> he did warn. >> european nations about. yoking their technology. >> to what he called. authoritarian regimes. >> and becoming. dependent on supply chains from those countries. >> mika. >> nbc's raf sanchez. from paris, thank you very much. >> let's bring. >> in president. >> emeritus of the council on foreign. >> relations, richard haass. he's the author. >> of the. weekly newsletter home in a way. >> available on substack. >> pulitzer prize winning columnist. >> and associate. editor of. >> the washington post, eugene. >> robinson joins. >> us as well. >> richard, we'll start with that. >> we do want to talk. >> about gaza, but what. >> do. you make. of the stance that the vice president. >> was putting. >> out there, especially. >> about the. >> regulation of ai? >> i think he's on to something. i simply don't think ai lends itself to regulation. let me

give you one image would be nuclear weapons. the united states and the soviet union had them. we had arms control because nuclear weapons were basically in two hands, very large, concentrated efforts to build them. ai is so different. it's. it's distributed. it's decentralized. dozens of companies in the united states and around the world. so the idea that. >> wouldn't it seem. >> like the one thing. >> that really needs to be regulated given. the potential. >> well, the problem is. >> first of all, how do you regulate the bad sides and not the good sides? who decides? how do you somehow discriminate? china and others aren't going to want to do it? there's too much economic upside here, mika. potentially too much strategic and military upside. you can't regulate things when they're in a stage of fast development. they have to reach plateaus. ai is not going to reach a plateau. it's going to keep moving. i simply don't think the nature of the beast lends itself to regulation. >> so is. >> it just the wild west? >> then how do you how do you have some control over ai or do you not? >> i think. >> i simply don't think you do. i mean, there's two ways to think about it. one is

naturally, what are we, as the united states do? maybe we can do some things. again, i think it's very hard. but internationally, willie, i just i think it is sort of the wild west and countries are going to be looking for ways to exploit it for economic advantage, intelligence advantage, military advantage. now we may reach a point where it reaches levels of maturity that in select areas you can get some select regulation or limits. but we're not we're not even close to that yet. >> we're going. >> to pause the conversation for a quick break. and when we come back, the latest out of the. >> middle east. >> where the hostage deal has hit a big roadblock as president trump vows to own the gaza strip. >> morning joe. >> is back in a moment. >> and here we go. >> consumer cellular. >> uses the. >> same towers. >> as big wireless, but then. >> passes the savings. >> onto you. >> so i. >> get the same. >> fast nationwide. >> coverage if i switch. >> yup. for unlimited talk and text with reliable coverage and your second month free call consumer cellular. >> muscle cramps were keeping me up at night. so then i tried

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presents a new original podcast hosted by jen psaki. each week, she and her guests explore how the democratic party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next. the blueprint with jen psaki listen now. >> where do people find the strength to speak truth to power? right now? you've got an administration. you've got a president ready, willing and able to take legal action against people doing their jobs. >> i think in 2025. >> politically engaged. >> people can find the strength to. >> make their. >> voices heard. >> and. >> try to help create a climate of opinion that enables these institutions, these people who run these institutions, to do the right thing. >> well, jon meacham, you are certainly my light tonight. >> more news out of gaza. >> hamas is postponing the release of any more hostages, accusing israel of violating the terms of the cease fire agreement. the terrorist group was supposed to hand over hostages on saturday, but now is delaying the move over claims

israel is slow to allow displaced palestinians to return to northern gaza, and that it has not been letting aid enter the enclave. in response, israel has put its military on high alert, telling troops to prepare for any scenario in gaza. president trump also weighed in on the conflict yesterday, issuing an ultimatum to hamas. >> as far as i'm concerned, if all of the hostages aren't returned by saturday at 12:00, i think it's an appropriate time. i would say cancel it and all bets are off and let hell break out. >> let hell break out saturday at noon, he says. meanwhile, the president says palestinians would not be allowed to return to gaza under his plan to take over and redevelop the region. the president made the comment during the pre-taped super bowl interview with fox news host bret baier. >> we'll build beautiful communities for the 1.9 million people. we'll build beautiful communities. safe communities could be 5 or 6, could be two,

but we'll build safe communities a little bit away from where they are, where all of this danger is. in the meantime, i would own this. think of it as a real estate development for the future. it would be a beautiful piece of land. would the palestinians know big money spent? no, they wouldn't, because they're going to have much better housing. much better. in other words, i'm talking about building a permanent place for them, because if they have to return now, it will be years before you could have. it's not habitable. it would be years before it could happen. >> the president. >> reiterated that palestinians would not be allowed to return to gaza. at the white house yesterday, he doubled down on an idea and suggested cutting aid to jordan and egypt if they refuse to take in palestinians. both countries have made clear they don't want to do that, and voiced opposition to the president's plan. president trump is set to meet with the king of jordan at the white house today. so, so much in there, richard. we can start with all hell breaking loose at

noon on saturday. all the hostages are not returned. that's what the president said yesterday. what do you take that to mean? >> look, i think at some point israel might be tempted to restart military operations. getting from phase one to phase two of this agreement is really tough because phase two is really demanding. it means that israel has to completely withdraw from all of gaza, and you have an open ended ceasefire. i find that hard to believe. as much as many israelis want to do that, to get the hostages back. hamas is out. they're out of the tunnels. i simply am skeptical that we're at a point where we're going to get phase two of this agreement in place, so i think you could see renewed, renewed violence. >> eugene, why would the president be pushing this kind of a plan, given the landscape that richard so frankly lays out? >> no, i think there's no good answer to that question because it is a crazy thing to do at this time. it's a crazy thing, crazy idea at any time, to tell you the truth. but particularly now, you know, the saudis keep putting out statements saying,

no, no, this will not happen. this cannot happen. and my question i have a question for richard haass, which is, do the saudis have any leverage here? i mean, they have they have clearly said there is no normalization of relations with israel. if any part of this plan goes goes forward, there's no normalization until we're on a path to a two state solution. is that real leverage still, or is there other leverage that the saudis have? >> i don't think it's that much leverage, because the israeli government has, in some ways discounted the importance of normalization with saudi arabia. if they valued it more, it would have happened somewhere sometime earlier, and it would have interfered with their goals in gaza. i think the principal saudi leverage right now is to produce more oil, because that would basically create downward pressures on oil pricing, which would help offset renewed inflationary pressures here. and

even more would hurt russia. and if president trump is committed to getting a ceasefire in ukraine, one way to do it is to put more economic and pressure. and that might be the greatest saudi leverage, not in the middle east, but in europe. >> and speaking of europe, american allies are set to retaliate against president trump's new tariffs. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin joins us with the fallout from an expanding trade war. that's when morning joe comes. >> right back. >> boy. >> boy. >> this can be yours. baby: liberty! mom: liberty mutual is all she talks about since we saved hundreds by bundling our home and auto insurance. baby: liberty! biberty: hey kid, it's pronounced "biberty." baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: bi-be-rty! baby: biberty! biberty: and now she's mocking me. very mature. mom: hey, that's enough you two! biberty: hey, i'm not the one acting like a total baby. mom: she's two. only pay for what you need ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: liberty. this is where you are.

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new. >> 25% tariffs. >> 25% on. >> all steel. >> and aluminum. >> imports to the united states. the tariffs applied to all. >> shipments of the metals. >> including from canada and mexico. >> despite trump granting a 30 day. delay of the blanket tariffs on all goods from those

countries last week. u.s. steel and aluminum suppliers may benefit from the decision, as. >> they'll have the chance. >> to undercut foreign competitors. but americans could soon feel the impact on their. >> wallets. >> as aluminum. >> and steel are. >> used in a wide range of. >> products from appliances. >> smart phones. >> soda cans and more. >> and higher import. >> costs would. >> filter through to consumers. so, richard, what does this make. >> a lot of sense? >> well, first of all, your analysis is right. this will save some jobs. >> i was. >> waiting for you to. >> say it doesn't. >> well, it doesn't, but i'm trying to explain it. it will save some jobs in this country, or maybe even create a few in the steel and aluminum industries. but it will do so at enormous cost, because there's far fewer jobs there than, for example, there is in the construction industry, which uses steel or the automobile industry. so the knock on effects of this will want to add to inflation. and two will

reduce sales for other businesses. so we'll have unemployment and other parts of the economy. and then mika and the reason it doesn't make sense is this will invite retaliation. the idea that we can do this in other countries won't won't act in kind. so this basically will start something of a trade war and that will be there's no like most wars, there's no winners. this will this will add to cost. so what worries me about this, and this is something the president believes is an article of faith. it's what economists call import substitution. instead of importing things we're going to substitute it by domestic. but it's much more expensive. so it doesn't make sense. and what's so odd about it? can i say one last thing? >> yeah. >> he inherited an economy that's in pretty good shape. it's humming along at close to 3%. inflation is way down. >> things were moving in. >> the right direction. >> employment was. >> way up. >> yeah. >> what this threatens to do is disrupt what was basically a very strong economy. and he could have done some tweaks to it and taken credit for it.

what? i think he will rue the day here because. because at the end, americans are going to care about inflation more than anything else. and this is going to set in motion trends where there's going to be new unemployment and steel dependent industries, and there's going to be inflation. so the president, i think, risks the stability of an economy that he inherited that was in pretty good shape, which, by the way, allowed him to focus on other things like the border or anything else. and the idea that he wants his focus to have to be on an economy that's in trouble. i do not understand the political or economic wisdom of it. so getting back to your question, i don't think it makes sense by his lights. >> so how do you explain it? richard. >> we were just talking. you've been discussing the economy and foreign policy with donald trump for 30 years. well before he was in politics. why is he doing this? if he knows prices are going to go up, it's just the way it works. his own economists are telling him that his own treasury knows that. why is he doing it? >> donald trump has two articles of faith that have propelled him

for four decades, maybe now longer, five decades. one is the trade. we get disadvantage by trade to be it's rigged against us. we get screwed. to use an. >> inelegant word off. >> we're always getting ripped off. and then the second strong view is allies again are ripping us off. they're freeloaders. and the united states pays much more, if you will, for the world than we get from it. so he wants to do two things. he wants to address what he thinks is the unfairness of trade. he sees trade imbalances bilateral. and he said that we must be somehow it's rigged against us. why isn't the playing field level? you know, there's a whole bunch of economic theory about, you know, you know, ricardo, and comparative advantage that essentially we shouldn't be making things that others can make more cheaply. we should be focusing on making the things that we make best quality at better cost. but the president wants to bring back certain types of manufacturing industries that we don't have a comparative advantage. but that is where he is. he's in. it's almost as if his views on this

got locked in 30 or 40 years ago, during the problems with japan and so forth, and he just feels this way. so i actually feel sorry for his economic advisers because you can't waltz into the oval office and persuade the president out of this. this is an article of faith. >> for him. >> coming up, our next guest asks senator chuck schumer what americans want from democrats right now. >> his answer. >> does not safe to say on tv. mara gaye joins us with that interview. when morning joe comes right back. >> i was trying to find my way home. >> i was. >> drowning in debt. >> i had over $36,000 in debt. >> if i would have just. >> made the minimum. >> payments, it would have taken. >> me 59 years to pay off. >> national debt relief can significantly reduce. >> the amount. >> you owe. >> national debt. >> relief reduced. >> my debt by over $27,000. >> with national debt relief, you have a powerful team that knows how to talk to your creditors. >> national debt relief. they >> national debt relief. they got me out of

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the citizens of the country. >> we are all watching. >> and waiting to see who is going to hold the line.

>> don't miss the weekends, saturday and sunday mornings. >> at 8:00. >> on msnbc. >> live from radio city music hall. it's the snl 50 homecoming concert, featuring performances by arcade fire, the b-52's, backstreet boys, bad bunny, bonnie raitt, brittany howard, brandi carlile, chris martin, dave grohl, david byrne, devo, eddie vedder, jack white, jelly roll. lady gaga, miley cyrus, mumford and sons, post malone, the roots and more. celebrating 50 years of snl music only on peacock. >> defense secretary. >> pete hegseth has. renamed the army base for liberty back to fort bragg, but this time, bragg is not a reference to the confederate general. the previous name was changed to remember to fort liberty in 2023, as part of an effort to cut military honors bestowed on those who rebelled against the union during the civil war. the name now honors an enlisted army

soldier named rowland l bragg, who took the. the pentagon says it was awarded a silver star purple heart for combat during world war two. hegseth issued the memorandum monday while flying to europe on a military plane in a video posted to social media. secretary hegseth is seen sitting at a desk while signing the memo and then reading a portion of the. order, commenting, quote, bragg is back. so these, gene robinson, are the little cultural things that donald trump has been talking about for a long time. part of the anti-woke agenda, if you can say renaming a base under the name of someone who was a confederate general, but saying it was a different soldier who served with honor, i'm sure. but this is obviously a cute way around that. this is sort of delivering on those promises, on the margins to get rid of woke in the government. >> yeah, on the margins is right. because okay, this is what i guess what he he put pete hegseth in the pentagon to do.

but do you think he might find some time to like, think about our defense posture, to think about our our our defense, our military industrial complex. is it is it able to build the right enough ships? are we producing enough ammunition? are we producing the right weapons? our forces in the right configuration and numbers for the potential conflicts of the future and not of the past? what is he doing about this intractable pentagon bureaucracy? that seems never seems to move like molasses? i mean, there's lots to do at the pentagon. and if this is the way pete hegseth is going to spend his time, then this appointment of him as secretary is as bad as i feared it would be, because there is so much to do, so much

that should be done. and he is, you know, worrying about finding a bragg to rename. now fort bragg after. it's ridiculous. and a tragedy of the trump administration that i hope we won't see repeated throughout the government. but i fear we will. >> coming up. >> senator elizabeth warren is standing by with new reaction this morning to the president's attempts to reshape the government. that conversation is. >> straight ahead on morning joe. take your business from launch to legendary with shopify. sell more with the world's best converting checkout. turn analytics into opportunities so you can scale further faster. take your business to a whole new level. switch to shopify. start your free trial today.

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one talk about. lowering the high cost. of living, but. >> do. >> nothing about it. >> part two enact.

>> massive tax. cuts for billionaires and wealthy corporations that will do. >> nothing to. >> improve the quality of life of everyday. >> americans. part three. >> stick working class americans with the. bill for those massive tax cuts for billionaires and wealthy corporations by destroying social security, medicare and medicaid as we know it. house democrats want. >> nothing to. >> do with the republican bait and switch, and we will do everything possible to. stop it. >> that was minority leader hakeem jeffries talking yesterday on the house floor. welcome to the fourth hour of morning joe. it's 6 a.m. on the west coast and 6:09. >> a.m. >> on the east coast. let's look at a couple of the headlines that we have today. the wall

street journal shows a picture of the vice president, vice president vance, on his way now over in europe with a tough message on the u.s. and i. and also, a showdown emerges over limits of presidential power. the new york times, talking about the possibility of a constitutional crisis. of course, some people quoted in the articles across many platforms today and across the times today suggest we're already in a constitutional crisis. others say not there yet. a host of republican senators yesterday came out and strongly said that the court's opinions, whatever they may be, are to be respected. and if you don't like them, well, as senator kennedy said, that's why god created appellate courts. and you can appeal those decisions. but again, most republicans in the u.s. senate speaking yesterday on camera,

talking about the importance of respecting the decision of our article three judges. the host of way too early, ali vitali, is back with us and also with us this hour. we have member of the new york times editorial board, mara gay, also national action network, and a host of msnbc's politics nation, reverend al sharpton and special correspondent for vanity fair, host of the fast politics podcast and msnbc political analyst molly jong-fast. ali, let's start with you. what's topping the news today? >> well, joe, president trump facing backlash this morning after signing new 25% tariffs on all steel and aluminum imports to the united states. it's a continuation of something he did during his first term, although with a higher percentage and price tag attached to it. nbc news senior white house correspondent garrett hake has the latest. there. >> it's a big deal. it's a big deal. >> with the. >> stroke of. >> his pen. >> monday night, president trump

raising. >> tariffs on. >> u.s. allies and adversaries alike. >> imposing new duties. >> on steel. >> and. >> aluminum imports. >> it's 25% without exceptions or exemptions. and that's all countries. >> canada is one of america's. >> biggest suppliers. >> of. >> both metals, its prime. >> minister calling the. >> tariffs unacceptable. >> imports of canadian steel and aluminum. create thousands, if not millions, of jobs and support families across the united states. >> trump's move would. >> benefit american producers. >> of steel and aluminum, but could also lead to. higher prices. >> those metals. >> are used in everything from food packaging like soda cans. >> to car manufacturing. >> the president suggesting. >> there may. >> be more to come. >> we will be looking at chips and we will be looking at cars, and we're going to be looking at pharmaceuticals. >> and in an interview recorded. >> this weekend. shrugging off cost concerns. >> you're not. >> worried that any of that's going to go back to the consumer. >> it might, but it's ultimately going to be much less expensive. >> trump also facing. >> legal hurdles.

>> for some of his. >> domestic priorities. a federal judge admonishing the white house for failing to comply with an order to release billions of dollars in frozen. grant funds and ordering the administration to do so, and the deadline for that buyout offer for federal workers still on hold after. another judge extended it. the president, reacting to recent judicial roadblocks in. >> a. >> radio interview. well. >> he got some very bad rulings and it's a shame to see it. >> and vice president jd vance is among the administration. >> officials signaling a potential showdown with the courts. writing over the weekend that judges. >> can't control the. >> president's power. trump. discussing vance's role in the republican party in his weekend. sit down. >> do you view vice president. jd vance as your successor? the republican nominee in 2028? >> no, but he's very capable. i mean, i don't think that it you know, i think you have a lot of very capable people. so far, i think he's doing a fantastic job. it's too early. >> that was nbc's garrett hake with that reporting. joining us

now on set, democratic senator elizabeth warren of massachusetts. she's a member of the senate finance and armed services committee. senator, it's nice to have you with us in the studio. you've got a busy day. i know powell is testifying on the hill later. but i do want to first get your reaction to the tariffs from the trump administration. i mentioned. it's a continuation of something he was trying to do in 2018. but what's the impact on american consumers and what's the what's it what's it a negotiating tactic for this time. >> well that's the question. what is the actual intent here. what is he trying to do? look, i think tariffs can be a very effective tool when they're targeted and when we know what the goal is. so for example, if we're trying to protect an emerging industry here in the united states, if we're trying to bring back more supply chains, which help make us stronger here in the us, it makes perfect sense. but just an announcement of a big tariff and no obvious why are you doing this? what is the goal? who are

you trying to protect? what part of the american economy are you trying to help? and so far, there's just nothing from president trump. >> i think a lot of those questions can also be applied to the agency that you conceptualized, the consumer financial protection bureau, and the way that there are efforts now to shut it down. can you talk about your reaction to that? but then also, i know you did you build in any fail safes predicting that something like this could happen. >> so let's start with where we are in this moment. remember, donald trump ran for office saying he would lower prices for american consumers. he was going to cut costs. he said he would do it on day one. he said right after the election that he was elected on groceries, that he was going to bring down prices. instead of doing that, he's turned around and he's actually cutting the parts of government that help bring down costs for american families. and the consumer financial protection bureau is the perfect example.

remember, it was put in place right after the big financial crash because these giant banks had cheated people. so in the dozen years that the consumer agency has been there, it has forced those big financial institutions to return more than $21 billion, that they had cheated american families out of. and to give that money back to those families, that's cutting costs for families. and right now, what donald trump has said is now just sideline all those cops, let any giant bank that wants to cheat you on a credit card or a mortgage or a car loan, just have open season on american consumers. that's not going to cut costs. that's going to raise costs for families. >> you know, senator joe scarborough here. so great to have you with us. i don't want to oversimplify the election results because you've been around long enough, and i've been around long, long enough to

know that a 1% or 1.5% swing would have changed things entirely. so i'm not i'm not going to be here to say, oh, democrats have gotten everything wrong. and to that point, kamala harris may have lost the battleground states, but tammy baldwin, a lesbian legislator, won wisconsin. and you had a woman winning michigan. you had a progressive, hispanic winning arizona. you had a female legislator winning nevada. so it's not all black and white. i mean, democrats did very well in other parts of swing states, too. that said, that's a really big wind up for this question. how in the world do billionaires gut agencies that are meant to protect working class americans? >> how do. >> billionaires raise tax cuts

for billionaires and brag that they're raising tax cuts for billionaires and gut spending to protect working class americans? and how do democrats lose any elections among working class voters? maybe you have an answer that the rest of us do not have, but is does that not just seem crazy on the surface of it? >> so let's take a look at elon musk. he spent $288 million to get donald trump elected. that's a lot of money and a lot of ads. and believe me, they didn't talk about in those ads raising taxes on billionaires. they talked about cutting costs for american families. so now elon musk has shown up and said he's ready to collect on his investment. here's one way that he may be trying to collect on that investment. you know x formerly twitter, lost money hand over fist. elon musk has a new plan

and that is x money that is that he's going to be out there in everybody's financial life. he faces one problem though, and that is the financial cop on the beat, the cfpb that stands behind him looks over his shoulder and says, you can't cheat people. you can't trick people and you can't suck up their personal financial data or any personal data and use it just for yourself or sell it to anyone you want to. so what's elon musk doing? well, just a little bit ahead of launching his product, he says, let's shut down the consumer financial protection bureau. let's take those financial cops off the beat. it is a little like a bank robber saying, i know what let's do. let's fire the cops, turn off the alarms. just as the bank robber decides to stroll into the lobby of the bank, i think that people are beginning to

tumble to what elon musk is up to, and i think this is going to be one of the places where the rubber is going to hit the road. on whether or not elon musk runs this country, or we're going to pull this back and have a democracy that actually works for the american people. >> all right. >> democratic senator elizabeth warren of massachusetts, as always, thank you so much. i really appreciate it. i wanted to ask maura, you, you you have written an article, first of all, the i've just got to say, the new york times editorial sunday was, i thought, just so extraordinarily important for people to read. we read a good bit of it yesterday, and i hope more people are reading, reading it today, that now is not the time to tune out. >> i did want. >> to ask you, though. you have a piece talking about democratic leadership and you talk about

how they are doing in this, this time of what i think many democrats, most democrats believe. it's constitutional crisis. how, how how is chuck schumer doing? how is hakeem jeffries doing? how are democrats on the hill who are there to work night and day to push back against this? how are they doing? >> yeah. >> so to. >> be clear, it isn't that the democrats have not done anything. there is. >> a lot. >> that they. are doing behind the scenes. >> there's not. >> a lot. >> of leverage that they. >> have at the moment. my argument is. >> the best resources. >> at their disposal are attention. >> so public attention and public opinion. >> and with no. democratic party standard bearer, it really falls to them in washington to. >> use that. >> bully pulpit. >> and make that case. >> and i. >> you know, i. >> think it's very clear. >> that that's. >> not a. >> comfortable role. >> for either.

>> of these gentlemen. >> the skills. >> that they have. >> which run. >> very deep in. >> washington, have a. >> lot. >> more to do with. >> wrangling colleagues. >> and, and. >> and landmark. >> legislation than they do with using. >> this kind. >> of a bully pulpit. >> they have. >> to learn on. >> the. job very quickly, i think. >> better than a. >> perfect message. there's a sense that they're waiting for. >> some. >> perfect message to get everyone in line. >> all the. >> ducks in a. >> row, and kind of. wait until then, maybe. to make a case to the american people ahead of the midterms. america does. >> not have time for that. >> americans, millions of americans, especially the half of the country, and more. who still believes and wants to. >> live in. >> a democracy, are waiting for democrats to show. >> some fight. >> so it's not you don't have. >> to have. >> the. >> perfect message. you have. >> to show that. >> you are still. >> willing to fight. >> for the democracy. >> that there. >> is still a. >> democracy to fight for. you have to make. >> clear that. >> what is happening is a. >> five alarm fire every. >> single day. and i don't know

that we have seen that sense of urgency from them. one of the suggestions i had was. >> to hold. >> a kind. >> of daily live. stream or war room. >> style press conference. >> from democrats. >> that they. >> can help americans make sense of what is happening. >> in washington, which is impossible. >> for everyday americans. to keep. >> their eyes on at. >> every minute and. >> every hour. >> i mean. >> these democrats. >> really have to call. >> for americans to build a movement for democracy so they can't do business as usual. but it's been a struggle for them. >> i think that. >> senator schumer has really made. >> some strides. >> in. >> that direction. >> but i think this is. >> an awkward, an awkward thing. >> for them. this is. >> not really what they do best, but they're going to have to find find. >> some fight. >> in them, because. >> there are a. >> lot of. >> americans sitting at home wondering, is anybody going to stand. >> up for the democracy? >> is anybody going to stand up. >> for the values. >> of science.

>> of freedom, of religion. for civil rights? and how about for. >> transgender americans. >> for children. >> who are under attack in this country? >> i mean. >> we need to. >> know that there's still. >> a democracy. >> that's worth. >> fighting for. and they have to make that case. >> they have to make it a lot louder. >> mara, they're talking about the case that democrats have to make. meanwhile, molly, your latest piece for vanity fair is about elon musk's influence on donald trump's slash and burn second term. you write in part this ironically, elon musk, whose own businesses have flourished in the spaces of science and technology, is leading the department of government efficiency, which has reportedly hit both spheres especially hard. you go on to write consider my own interaction with musk this past weekend, in which i pointed out over x that joe, that the doge leader was cutting funding for cancer research. i'm not, he responded to my post, even though that is almost certainly what is happening. wtf? what are you talking about? in other words, it's clear that the tesla ceo doesn't seem to realize that

by having the government step back from commitments it's made to world leading researchers, his department is effectively slowing down medical advances for millions of patients who desperately need critical care and is imperiling the economic position of america, a leader in biomedical innovation. molly, how can you not know that? it's part of the coverage has been so centrally focused there. >> well, so. >> these are these cuts. >> to the nih and they so. >> in some ways. >> it's a good. >> if you don't understand grant writing and you don't. >> understand all the sort of machinations when it comes. >> to universities. >> grants, scientists. and how all that money is spread out, then it makes sense, right, to cap indirect costs at 15%. the problem is the way these grants are written. indirect costs can be microscopes. they can be, you know, you have the times had a nobel prize winning scientists talking about how, you know, his microscope is. >> covered under that. and, and. this is the sort of nuances. >> of what gets lost.

>> when you're moving so quickly. >> and it's. >> also going to have like huge. consequences for states like alabama. right. university of alabama is the largest. and you. >> saw katie britt is already a little bit anxious about this. it's the largest employer in the state. right. so these cuts. >> will have real. >> world impacts. >> on. >> you know, people. >> who work at. >> the university. not just the scientists. >> and then it will slow down the progress. so these are unintended. >> consequences, perhaps. and perhaps they can be stopped or slowed. >> but i. >> think a lot. >> of what. you write. and. and. >> going to mara's. >> point are really intersect. you're dealing with people that really don't. >> understand what they're saying. >> musk really doesn't understand, as you say, how you deal. >> with making. these proposals. >> and the. and the implications. and what. >> you're saying. mara. >> i think you're right that the. leadership in the democratic party. needs to be out there. more and. vocal more. but let's always remember.

movements never started in washington. >> they got. to washington every. >> dirksen didn't lead the civil rights movement. >> doctor king did. >> and i think the democrats. >> need to be able to. >> respond to that. >> when we did. >> george floyd, george floyd didn't come out of the white house. >> trump was president. >> he came with all of us. >> rising up. >> we brought 200,000 people in a pandemic to washington. what i've challenged is, where are the other civil rights groups? >> because i've. >> been trying to get them to. >> be out there with us. >> on this. >> dei thing. where are the labor groups? why are they being. >> so passive? >> and i think that a lot of the people. >> that i'm talking to on the. >> ground think people. >> have been bullied and scared. from washington to outside. groups by donald trump. and if you're scared, you shouldn't be in leadership. >> i agree. >> i also think, though. that the. democrats who are in. office have a. responsibility to. directly let the american people what is going on, because it's not just. >> existing civil. >> rights groups. >> a movement is made up of.

americans who are sitting in. >> jobs right now. you know, they're teachers, they're firefighters. >> who knows? they may not have ever considered. >> running for office or. >> getting out and. >> marching and protesting, but they need to know what's going. >> on so that they can organize. >> america needs to organize itself into a movement for. >> democracy. >> right now. >> i agree. >> rev. >> i wanted to ask you about following up on what what mara was talking about regarding the leaders of the democratic party. they have very particular skill sets that are very important for the jobs they hold, but they are insular skill sets for the most part. and we see this with most, most leaders of the house and the senate. they're very good at counting votes. they're very good at supporting candidates. they're very good at, you know, helping, helping grow majorities. but sometimes they're not great at delivering. >> a. >> message in a time of political crisis. and i noted

that when i was in congress that it often wasn't a meritocracy. we would see people in our party go out speaking on cameras that just weren't well liked and weren't really great on camera, whereas you had others like j.c. watts or steve largent, two guys who just lit up the tv screen every time they were on it. i'm curious, are there any democrats right now that you can think of that should be out front more making the case, because it always doesn't have to be the head of the appropriations committee or the head of the rules committee. or are chuck schumer or hakeem jeffries. i'm not saying they shouldn't be out there, but is there are there a voice or two in the democratic party that you think should be leading town hall meetings every day, virtual town hall meetings every day on youtube for americans to build this movement that mara is talking about? >> no, i think that there are a few that i've seen. i think that when you look at the

congressional black caucus, congressional latino caucus, and the like, you have some real people with real charisma that can connect, and they should be out there more often. jasmine crockett comes to mind. i think that even adolfo. adriana espaillat on. the at the latino caucus. >> now. >> i think that when you look at hakeem, nobody's better on tv than hakeem, but that's not his role. he can't lead the march to himself. he's the minority leader. >> i think. >> that there needs. >> to be those. >> in the congress that pushes it, and that can also push the public on a consistent basis, and that takes the talent to do it. but it also takes the hard work, because you got to get out there every day, and you have to be willing to take blows if you're going to throw blows. and everybody's not built for taking blows every. >> single day. yep. let's bring in right now a guy who is built

for taking blows. also a guy that lights up the tv screen, of course. who do we talk speak of? but co-anchor of cnbc's squawk box and new york times columnist andrew ross sorkin. andrew hangs out every morning with some tough people throwing blows from the big, big right hooks, haymakers, and you somehow get, get, get past it all the time. what are we looking at today, andrew? >> we are looking at. >> the elon musk soap opera. going from. washington now back. >> to. >> silicon valley. >> and then flipping. over to paris. let me explain. >> so while. >> we've all been. talking about what's happening with doge. >> and all. the question. >> marks around. >> that. >> a new. >> question mark has emerged. elon musk effectively. >> making. >> a hostile bid yesterday for. >> nearly $100. >> billion to buy. sam altman's openai. >> now. >> openai is the ai. >> company that actually sam altman and. elon musk founded as a not. >> for. >> profit back in 2016. there's

been a. >> lot. >> of beef between the two of these. when elon musk. >> left. >> the company. said that he didn't. >> think they were. >> open and he didn't think. >> that it. >> was doing the right thing for the humanity. if you will, suggesting that it's really not a not for. profit at all. >> once it made a. >> partnership with microsoft, you might remember a couple of years ago, microsoft made an investment in it so that it could. build what is now chatgpt and the like for so many people. so there's a this hostile bid. >> on the table. >> sam altman has said, no. we're we're not accepting. >> your your. >> offer if you will. >> but it's. >> raised all sorts. >> of new crazy. >> questions about what's going to happen to. >> the future. >> of openai. >> openai is. >> trying to go from a not for profit to being a. profit company, which would then allow investors effectively to make money. that's something that actually upsets elon musk. i should mention sam altman somewhat, maybe humorously, maybe not. said no thanks to the

bid, and then said we'd be very happy to buy twitter for 9.75 or whatever. it was billion dollars, which was basically just move the decimal point over from the bid that elon musk had made for him. so it may seem childish, but this is all going to end up in the. courts one way or the other. and sam altman and the. entire ai industry is in paris right now, and it's with jd vance, i should say, the vice president. and of course, it is the talk of the town there. >> yeah, that that back and forth over billions of dollars and key social media platforms does seem childish. but at the same time, it's such a central focal point for all of us who are tracking what musk is doing. but the other piece of this, too, is those tariffs that president trump has just put back in place on steel and aluminum. what's the reaction that you're tracking there? >> well, look the reaction so far is it's. >> beneficial to some of the u.s. companies. it's obviously going. >> to raise costs. >> we've talked. >> about it. >> over and over. tariffs on. >> the whole are inflationary.

>> and so the price will will impact americans. it's just the way it is. it's also by the way interestingly. >> you know. >> if you're a us. >> steel maker, you may raise prices yourself a little bit because the price of everything else is going to come up. >> so it. >> there's all sorts of very interesting impacts here. i think the longer term question is how long. do these tariffs stay on? is this a permanent state of play or is this part of some kind of grander negotiation with so many other countries? and is it about national security, or is it about economics, or is it about both? and i think we just don't know yet. >> while we're talking about elon musk, there is a column by jamie last yesterday talking about how tesla is headed for very rough times, talks about how radically it's overvalued right now, also talks about how many of the consumers that would be buying electric vehicles and would be buying teslas or certainly did in the past, would not do it again. he's losing big market share in germany. obviously getting involved with

a far right wing party. they're losing vast market share in france. but i'm just curious, is there any concern on wall street that tesla may be overvalued and that it may be heading for rough times? as mr. last says? >> look, it's. >> been betting against tesla has been one of the thus far relatively terrible bets on the economics of the vehicles unto themselves. you would look and say, well, doesn't doesn't look great. having said that, it's for tesla and investors in tesla. it has always been about the promise of tesla. what comes next? he has now promised to have robotaxis and to turn teslas effectively into robotaxis in a number of markets, saying that it is coming even by the end of this year in certain markets. and so the question is, does that happen? he has put out predictions about when things are going to happen that have taken a much longer to get there. and i think that is the fundamental question. are you buying an automobile maker? are you buying a robotaxi company?

are you buying a robotics company? are you buying an ai company? and i think it's the promise of all those things that has kept this stock levitating. and the real question is, does it continue to levitate in the same place forever? does it come down? i it's been it's been very hard. there's been a lot of people who have short short sellers, people betting against the company who i think wish they didn't. so i wish i could give you an answer. on the fundamentals alone. it's hard to make the case, but a lot of people buying into the dream, if you will. >> cnbc's andrew ross sorkin, thank you for joining us. and coming up in the 1940s, nearly 80% of americans said they belonged to a church, synagogue, mosque or temple. that number is just 45%. today, new york times opinion columnist ross douthat joins us next with his new book on why everyone should be on why everyone should be religious. you're watc still have moderate to severe ulcerative colitis... ...or crohn's disease symptoms after taking... ...a medication like humira or remicade? put them in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill.

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>> the gallup poll conducted last year found roughly. 3 in 10 adults in the u.s. regularly attended religious services, down from more than 40% just two decades ago, according to the poll. church attendance is likely to keep dropping because younger americans having a weaker attachment to religions. and according to a 2024 pew study, 8 in 10 americans say religion is losing influence in public life. let's bring in right now opinion columnist for the new york times, ross douthat. ross is the author of the new book titled believe why everyone should be religious. ross, thank you so much for being with us. you know, we sit on the show and i know you write columns and other people write columns, and we look at all the problems that are facing, not only the society, but also more particularly our children. and i just don't think it's a coincidence that over the past 20, 30 years, as church pews

have emptied out, synagogue pews have emptied out, that america has become more materialistic. it's become more secular. and at the same time, more depressed and more isolated. talk about the importance of faith in people's lives and why it helps help solve so many of these social ills that we're facing today. >> yeah. >> thanks so much for having me, joe. i, i think. >> the story you tell is about. right. that basically. >> the story. >> of. >> the. >> last 20 years. >> in america. >> is a. >> story of. >> people falling. >> away from. organized religion. >> disaffiliating from churches. often for reasons. connected to scandal. >> the sex abuse. >> scandal in. >> my own. >> catholic church, scandals. >> in other churches as. >> well, and also a sense of kind of. >> political identity. >> is. >> becoming more. important than. >> religious identities.

>> like politics taking the place. >> of religion. so one of the. >> statistics i like. >> to cite is 60. >> or 70 years ago. >> people would. have been more likely. >> to. say that they were. >> worried if their daughter. >> or. son married. >> someone of a different religion. >> than a different. >> political party. >> and now. >> it's the opposite. >> people are less concerned if you marry outside your religion. >> but if you marry. >> a democrat. >> or a. republican and your parent. >> is the opposite party. people get upset. >> and i think that. >> speaks to the. >> way that. politics has become a kind of primary. >> attachment in our national. >> life and. >> religion, a. >> secondary one. and what what that does. >> and, you know. >> you mentioned. >> kids, right? >> kids in america, this is the. >> first generation. >> really raised. >> in large. >> numbers. >> not just. >> without like strong religious. >> attendance or practice. >> but. >> without any kind. >> of direct connection. >> to organized religion. >> and i don't think it's. >> a coincidence. >> that out of that, you get a generation. >> that. >> is more anxious. >> more depressed and. more worried. >> i think in this fundamental. >> way. >> about like what. >> is a human being's.

>> place in. >> the universe? >> what is like. >> my metaphysical horizon? >> what is the. >> point of life, which. >> are connection questions that. >> religion is in fact. >> there to answer? >> yeah. i mean, you talk about politics and religion and again, how how they've blurred and how politics seem to become more important than religion. and it reminds me of jesus saying, render unto caesar that which is caesar unto god, that which is god. it seems again, so much of that has blurred or been changed. and tim keller, a guy whose church services i would always go to in manhattan, you know, tim, before he passed, said he stopped using the term evangelical because he was an evangelical. but he said, when i use the term, it's now been overtaken, overrun by politics. so i don't even call myself an evangelical anymore. how did

this happen? >> well, part. >> of that is. it is this sense. >> of. >> political polarization. >> where as religion. >> declines. >> it becomes more. >> associated with the more conservative. >> parts of america. >> and so then people in more liberal. >> parts of america don't. >> want to identify. >> with, let's say. >> evangelical christianity or christianity in general, because. >> they see. >> themselves as. >> identifying with george. w bush or. >> sarah palin. >> or, you know, and people they disagree with. and then that sort of. furthers the cycle where then liberalism. >> becomes more. >> secular. and people who are liberal. >> feel they have less in. >> common with religious believers who are more conservative. and it's. >> sort of a cycle. >> that feeds. on itself. >> i do. >> think, though. >> i. >> want to. >> say something more optimistic here. >> the statistics. >> you cited at the beginning are all true. >> religion has been in decline, sort of generationally. >> i think if you look at the last few. >> years. >> though. >> the number of. >> americans who say they. >> have no religious. affiliation has actually. >> leveled off. >> it's stopped rising. >> right. >> and there are a. >> lot of.

>> indicators, i think. that people are. interested in sort of spiritual. >> questions in a new way. these things. >> tend to go in. >> cycles. >> and some. >> of this is. >> expressed in interest. >> in organized. >> religion. >> traditional forms of faith. >> some of it's expressed. >> in, you. >> know, a kind. >> of 1970s style. >> you know. >> we're going to. >> take. >> psychedelics and. >> you know. >> do our horoscopes. >> and get. >> in touch. >> with the mysteries of the universe. >> and part of the argument i'm making in the book is, in fact, that it's. probably a better. >> idea to take. >> a second. >> look at the organized and traditional. >> religions than. >> to just go out. spiritually freelancing. >> but both of. >> those, i. >> think, are. >> things that are happening a bit more in the last five. >> years than was the. >> case in 2017. >> or 2013. >> so i think. >> it's a slightly more optimistic moment for religion in america right now. >> on that point, ross, i find a lot of people that are more religious than they are churchgoing, and i think that you have people that make a

distinction between being spiritual and being religious. and in some communities, particularly the black communities, churches play more than a religious role. they were the social structure, right, that our politics and our historic black colleges came out of. as you see where we are now with the polarization, do you think the polarization politically and socially will energize people more toward churchgoing and not just freelance spiritual searching? because the danger of that is that if you're not anchored anywhere, where do you ever arrive? >> right. >> i mean. >> i think. >> there's a. >> lot of the freelancing. >> and a lot of people. >> in this. >> moment getting freaked out about. >> what's. happening in politics. >> and sort of doubling down on political identity. >> but for exactly the reasons you. >> described, i think it's actually much. better for. >> people who are sort of loosely attached to. >> religion. >> who have a desire for a. >> spiritual connection and so. >> on, to.

>> reconnect to. >> an actual institution. >> right. >> and there are a lot. >> of i'm more. >> of a conservative christian, right? >> i have a. >> lot. >> of liberal. >> leaning friends who. >> tend to be sort. >> of nostalgic. >> for the. >> days when. >> liberal protestant churches. >> for instance, placed a big played. >> a big role. >> in american life. those churches are. all still there. not all of them. >> a few have. >> closed, right? >> but you can go to those churches. >> on sunday morning. if you're. >> a liberal who feels. >> sort of spiritually adrift and looking for answers. >> in. >> life. >> you don't have to. >> go full. >> latin mass. >> catholicism if you want to, you know, get in. >> touch with me. >> we can talk, right? >> but there are there are. >> a lot. of houses of. >> worship open. >> right now. >> today. >> maybe not today. sunday morning, right where you can. >> go and have. >> a connection. >> with the. >> ultimate questions about. >> the universe. without committing. >> yourself to. >> the full. >> panoply of. >> conservative doctrines. we'll talk about those later. >> we? yeah. and i'll tell you what. i'm going to leave you

with a full blown latin mass, and i'll stay in the baptist church. but, you know. there's something that you, you, you wrote about, and it's something that that i've seen in my life. i grew up, i grew up in the church, and it was the center of our life, our family's life, and. and i've had people my whole life say to me what you said. some people said to you when you were writing this book, which was, i wish i could have faith. it seems like a beautiful thing that you have. i wish i could believe, and i'm just curious, what was your response to them and what's your response to those who say, i think what you do, what you're doing is beautiful. i love watching people going to church. i even sometimes go and i'll sit in the back of a church and just watch it myself, but i can't get there. what was your message to

them when they told you that? >> so two things, right? i mean, the first is that. >> ultimately religious. >> faith is. >> about a. >> relationship with god. >> and in the. >> christian tradition. >> it's about god's grace reaching. >> out to individuals. >> and in that sense, obviously, you can't just sort of will yourself or think yourself into, you know, full scale, full scale christian communion. however, i. >> think a lot of people. >> in our society make it a lot harder than. >> it should be to take. >> the first step toward religion. they say. >> oh. >> if i become religious, i'm i'm. leaving behind science and rationality and all of modern civilization. >> and a big part of the. >> argument i make. >> in the first, first part of the book, especially, is that that's just really not true, that. >> if you. >> look deep. >> into everything from what. >> physics has revealed. >> about the order. >> and structure and the. >> design of the. >> universe. >> to what we know about modern. >> consciousness. >> to just the. >> persistence of. >> very strange. >> supernatural experiences. >> there are a lot of good.

reasons why you shouldn't feel like you're. abandoning anything to do with reason. >> or seriousness. >> when you take. >> a next. >> step into religion. >> and in fact. >> it's what a serious. >> person ought. >> to do. >> ross. >> you know, i lost. >> my grandmother last year. >> she was. nearly 98 years old. >> she was a devout christian. i also am. >> a. >> devout christian. and i guess, you know, what she used to say to me is the. best way to show. that the christian church. >> is open to others. >> is to live those values. >> and i don't. >> see a lot of that. >> in america today. >> so i guess. >> i wonder. >> the question. >> to you is. what what. >> should christians who do go to church and i. >> specifically mean. christians who are church going? what do they need to do? what kind of reflection should they be. >> engaged in? >> given the fact that so. many americans have said, i reject these. >> institutions. >> and that's not.

>> just political, because a lot of the things that drive politics, that drive people to certain political. >> parties. >> are deeply held values. >> yeah, it's a really good question. >> i think i'd say. >> first. >> people should keep. >> in mind. >> right, that. >> a lot of what we think about in terms of religion does get refracted through our media. and i'm. >> part. >> of the media. this is this is not you know, this is not an anti-media statement. >> right? >> but the media. >> is much more comfortable. >> talking about politics. >> than talking. >> about religion. right. >> and so. >> there. is a. >> kind. >> of media. >> narrative around religion where everything that like a prominent pastor or bishop or priest. >> or ordinary. >> believer does, that's. >> in any. >> way political gets highlighted. and the ordinary life of religion in america. >> the. >> soup kitchen, sunday church service, family life and so on doesn't get that kind of coverage. >> so one thing. >> i. >> would. >> say is. >> being religious. >> if you're looking at it from. >> the. >> outside, it's. >> not just sitting around having, you know, high level arguments about same sex

marriage and immigration policy. right? like that isn't actually what. >> you. >> get if you join a normal religious body or. >> christian church. then for the christians. >> themselves. >> i think this is advice that goes beyond christianity. you know, i'm a conservative columnist who writes for the new york times, which. >> has a. >> slightly more. >> liberal than. >> conservative readership. >> right. >> and, you know, one thing that's really useful. >> in talking to people. who disagree. >> with you and writing for people who disagree with you is just trying to find ways to like them, to like people. >> jesus asks. >> us to love our enemies. i think a good first step. >> in that. >> direction is figuring. >> out what do you like about. >> people who disagree. >> with you, right? like, what's. >> a first step. towards showing. >> the deepest christian love. >> that you can take. >> in in ordinary life? and i think that then. feeds into ideas. >> of. >> like, how. >> welcoming is. >> your religious. community when someone comes in who doesn't agree with you about. everything and is. >> interested and wants to. >> join, right. >> but just. >> just at a basic level. >> like.

>> you know, i'm very pro human being. human beings, in fact. >> you know, even. >> even elon musk and donald. >> trump for, you know, the msnbc audience. >> right, are really. interesting and fascinating. >> characters, even if you think they're, you know. doing terrible things. >> to america in the moment. and the same is true. >> of people. >> on the other side of the aisle. >> and i think. >> in an. >> odd way, having. >> a greater appreciation. >> for the human person is. >> a good way. >> to take. >> a step closer to having the correct ideas about, you know, almighty. >> god himself. >> thanks. >> and on taking that first step to faith also. yeah, you don't have to give up science. you don't have to give up reason. and you also don't have to be perfect. it is a faith of sinners. and i prove that every day, and so do every other, every other christian. we could talk about peter for a very long time, saint peter, but. >> he made some mistakes. he made some early mistakes. >> he made some big mistakes. he

denied jesus three times. and what did jesus do? you are peter, and i'm going to build my church upon you. so that's right. very catholic. >> thing to. >> say, joe. >> i have to say. >> that the rock. petra. exactly. >> i know. >> it's a baptist thing. >> yeah, but i'm just i'm just saying for all those that are holding back and not taking the first step, like jesus, jesus picked a guy around him that was the most sort of overmatched by the challenges of life and said, i'm going to build my church on you anyway. the new book, believe why everyone should be religious, is now on sale. ross, thank you so much for being with us. we greatly appreciate it and we're going to take a look coming up next at a new crime series, a cruel love, which tells the story of the last woman who was hanged in britain. actress lucy boynton is here to

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to stand up for their own moral beliefs, but still find grace in this moment? >> everybody. >> welcome back. many stories to follow this morning, but i want to get your take on one of them that hits the heart of new york city. we've seen mayor eric adams making entreaties, making a lot of different pleas in various ways to the trump administration to help him with his legal woes. now, of course, the department of justice saying overnight that the charges against adams should be dropped. you are tied in to new york politics. talk about the political. but then also the legal ramifications of this. watching a democrat get off without prejudice, meaning this case could come back around and potentially be a leverage point later for the trump folks. >> well, i think that that the most disturbing part of the decision is without prejudice. it's almost like they're putting the mayor on a leash, that if you get out of line, we can yank it at any time. if they really

felt that he was worthy of not having a trial, they should have pardoned him like they've done others to. fact that they played it this way means they are making sure that he cannot get out of line, which is unfair to him and is disastrous for the city. i do not think that eric, who's a friend of mine, 35 years, i texted him last night. he texted me back but i do not believe he was targeted. i do not believe damian williams, who was the first black u.s. attorney here, had this political ambition. the investigation had started before that. i think that a trial would have made it clear whether the mayor was guilty or not. but by saying that the mayor would not get a trial because he will do what the president's policies are, they didn't have to say that. they spelled out he will follow the immigration policies. he will do. this is unprecedented and unfair to the city of new york. >> yeah, and an important way for us as we track the way that

trump and the department of justice in the trump administration is creating new, new parameters, new precedents. this certainly is an important one for us to cover. rev, thank you for that. i want to turn now, though, to a new true crime series from britbox titled a cruel love the ruth ellis story. it recreates the high profile 1950s murder trial of ruth ellis, a london nightclub manager who was convicted and later hanged for killing her abusive boyfriend. at the time. the case captivated the british public, bringing into question how the press coverage of ellis and her trial may have affected its outcome. >> we've just seen the body of david blakely at hampstead mortuary, david. i understand you know something about it. >> i am guilty. i'm rather confused. >> half a dozen witnesses. >> saw a shoot. >> likely you have signed a. >> written statement.

>> admitting. >> your guilt. >> why did you decide to do what you did? >> can i buy you. >> a drink? >> i run this place, mr. blakely. let me get you one. >> you are admitted to a capital crime. any judge would be forced. >> to hang you. >> joining us now, the star of that show, lucy boynton, she portrays ruth ellis. you saw her there in those clips. lucy, thanks for joining us. i was looking at the ways that you've talked about the revival of this stories and the parallels that you see between the harsh way that ruth ellis was treated in the press and ultimately in the decision that the legal system made there, but then also the parallels to modern women today explore that for us. >> because that's such an. >> interesting point. >> i think what was so difficult at the time was that ruth didn't have a voice of her own, so the public's understanding of her was very limited because it was subject to a small collection of journalists and how they deemed

her. and i think they had a very specific idea at the time of how a woman should be, how a woman should conduct herself. and thankfully, we've progressed from there. and i think women do have more of a platform now to speak for themselves. but but the media do still have a huge role and a huge responsibility to play in how the public perceive these people. so it was a privilege to be a part of really reexamining this story with a contemporary lens. >> did you know her? >> you know, she's the last. >> woman to. >> be put to death in the uk. did you know about. >> her story? >> and also, as you were. >> telling the story. >> did you. >> you know. >> what did. >> you sort of feel about that period? >> i didn't. >> to my shame. i didn't know her story and i definitely didn't know the extent of the case. i mean, so much more information has come to light about how the trial actually played out. since it's since then and since it's last been examined in mainstream media. so it was a huge education, and i tried to go in kind of

analytically analysis first, emotions second when approaching the role and then very clearly, very quickly, i realized that wasn't possible. i think there's no neutrality when it comes to domestic violence like this. >> yeah. can you tell. >> me what. you learned about the public's reaction at. >> the time, and. >> then talk a little bit. >> about the legacy of. >> this case? and. >> actually. >> you didn't know about it yourself. you said so. so maybe it's not widely known in the country. >> but could you talk a. >> little bit about that? >> i think. >> the details of it definitely aren't as widely known. so i'm so excited that this series does explore new information for the public. so it will be very illuminating. but i think, yeah, it was it was a tremendous education, i think. sorry. remind me of the first. >> yeah, sure. >> so i'm. >> wondering if you could talk a. >> little bit about how the. public viewed this case. >> at the time? >> i think it was so interesting because there was mass public outcry. so many people were really ignited by this case and wrote passionate letters to their mps saying that this was a miscarriage of justice, that she

did not deserve to be hanged. but it was a political piece. i mean, and so they their cries were ignored and it became a very bureaucratic kind of chess move, i think. so she was really used as an example and used as a kind of piece of propaganda, i think, as to how they didn't want women to be and present themselves. thanks, lucy. >> let's take a look at a clip where your character, ruth speaks with her lawyer while in prison. >> is it true that you. >> have been campaigning for me? >> i told. >> you, no begging, no pleading. >> you've seen what they've written about you. >> i don't. >> care what they write. i want my sentence to take its course. you will not go. >> to the home office. >> i will. >> not die with this world thinking i am. >> some beaten little fool. >> well. >> that's it then. >> that is justice. an eye for an eye. as i have said. >> from the start.

>> an eye. >> for an eye. >> remarkable. what would you love, lucy? what would you love for viewers to take from a cruel love? >> new empathy and understanding for the case. and also anunderss currently, especially to examine how the judicial system treat women. >> all right. the first two episodes of the true crime series accrual of the ruth ellis story premieres monday on britbox, followed by a new episode every week. actress lucy boynton, thank you so much for being with us. >> thank you. >> greatly appreciate it. rev to you for final word of the morning. what are what are you going to be looking looking at over the next crazy 24 hours? >> well, i'm going to i've been talking to a lot of the black elected officials in new york about how we deal with the

situation with mayor adams. clearly, the options have changed a lot with the decision by the court, because now we're told that if you follow my policies, you don't have to go on trial. that's a danger to everyone. you were in congress to say that nine months was too close to a primary. everybody in congress is running again. in nine months. you only serve two years. so i'm going to be meeting with a lot of them. and i speak at yale tonight. they said you were busy, so i'm going to fill in for you at yale political union tonight. >> yeah. >> all right. very good. well, they traded up, that's for sure. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. thanks for watching. >> right now on ana cabrera reports. new warnings of a constitutional crisis just weeks into trump's second term. a series of judges pumping the brakes on president trump's

breakneck efforts