team. check out for imprint comm. >> for imprint for certain. >> when you need. brutal honesty. when you need answers. first thing in the morning. when you need to go deep inside washington and hear from someone who's been there. you need your morning joe. weekdays at six. only on msnbc. >> hi there everyone. it's 4:00 in new york from. explosive new.

accusations against donald trump's. >> pick to lead the fbi. to the push to. >> dismiss a rather open and shut bribery case against new york city mayor eric adams to comments. donald trump just made in the. oval office, blasting. >> federal judges. who have ruled against his administration. >> the maga movement's efforts to. obliterate the rule of law in america are coming into. >> fuller view today. >> we begin. >> with the top democrat on the senate judiciary committee. >> suggesting that. >> kash patel might have lied. >> under oath to congress. and is. secretly plotting a purge of career civil servants at the fbi. in a letter to the inspector general of the department of justice. >> senator dick. >> durbin says that acting deputy attorney general emil bove told. attendees of a january 29th meeting between top fbi brass and leadership at the justice department. >> this quote. >> he received multiple calls from stephen miller the. >> night. >> before. mr. miller was pressuring him because. >> mr. patel. >> wanted the fbi to remove targeted employees faster, as

doj had already done with prosecutors. now, according to senator durbin, notes from that meeting read, quote, kp. kash patel wants movement at fbi. reciprocal actions for doj. durbin adding this quote, it. >> is unacceptable. >> for a nominee with no current role in government, much less at the fbi, to personally direct, unjustified and potentially illegal adverse employment actions against senior career fbi leadership and other dedicated, nonpartisan law enforcement officers if these allegations are true, patel may have perjured himself. >> before the senate. >> judiciary committee. for reference, here is. what kash patel said about this at his confirmation hearing. >> are you aware of any. plans or discussions to punish in any way, including termination, fbi agents or personnel associated with trump investigations? >> yes or no? >> i am not. >> aware of that. >> thank you senator. >> there there is no. >> evidence of wrongdoing by fbi.

>> employees involved. >> in these investigations. if you do pursue investigations of those involved, will you commit. >> to using. >> standard processes, including a standard review by the fbi inspections division. >> and the. >> inspector general? >> senator, i will honor all those review processes. >> you will honor those review processes. >> yes, senator. >> if these are actions that the fbi employees, if there are actions against fbi employees that do not follow those standards process that happened before you get in, will you commit to reversing any decision prior to your arrival so that those standard processes. and the standard review by the fbi inspections division will take place? >> i don't know what's going on right now over there, but i'm committed to you, senator, and your colleagues, that i will honor the internal review process of the fbi. >> i don't know anything. >> i don't know what they're doing. >> over there. >> wasn't really even believable

at the moment, was it? we should know that nbc news has not independently verified the allegations being made by senator durbin, but he will join us later in the program to discuss his findings and his allegations. a spokesperson for kash patel dismissed the claims as, quote, anonymous sources and, quote, secondhand gossip, adding, quote, the senate should confirm him without delay. we'll add an exclamation point for them. the senate judiciary committee is expected to vote on kash patel's nomination thursday, less than two days from right now, meaning that the allegations come at a possibly critical time for the fbi and, more broadly, the justice system in this country. trump allies are working to remake the justice department and the fbi, with a particular focus on those who investigated the january 6th insurrection and defendants with one priority in mind some categories of people defined by their proximity to and affinity for donald trump cannot be

touched or imprisoned or prosecuted. and if the justice system doesn't hold them accountable, why should you care? but does that mean for you? that's a question democrats need to answer. and quickly. allegations that trump's pick to run the fbi is leading a purge of the agency he seeks to lead, and the questions it raises about the rule of law in america is where we start today. new york times justice department reporter glenn thrush is here, joining me at the table, msnbc legal analyst, former s.d.n.y. criminal division deputy chief kristie greenberg's back, plus former assistant u.s. attorney and former new york city mayoral candidate maya wiley is here. and glenn thrush, start for me with the why. i think that for our audience, it's norm busting on top of potential illegal action, on top of norm busting and turning doj and the fbi into a tool for trump's political police. and it can start to feel

like a blur. but this is significant. it feels like in the same way mike flynn lied about his call with kislyak was if kash patel is going to take over the fbi and the republicans are all going to confirm him unanimously, he can do whatever he wants once he gets there. why would he lie in his confirmation hearing? >> well. >> we also have not verified independently what was in the durban. the durban claim, but. >> we've reported around the edges. and i can tell you there are a couple of things in that that certainly comport with what we have reported. first and foremost is that stephen miller is in the middle of all of this. miller has been, as we reported, i think, over the weekend in an email profile that i wrote with a couple of colleagues. miller, you know, has been was in the middle of a lot of these orders, particularly on homeland security, that are coming out of the justice department. i spoke with a justice department employee a couple of days ago who said that miller is on the phone with people over at the

department multiple times per day. whether or not that involved an interaction with patel, the inspector general will find out or or we'll be able to develop some reporting on that. but in any event, it's just very, very clear that what is going on at the fbi and the justice department has the endorsement and the enthusiastic support of the president of the united states and the most powerful people around him. it emanates from trump. the people in these jobs are executing the will of the man in charge, period. full stop. and emil bove is a name people really ought to start paying attention to. this has been the prime mover behind almost everything that has happened, including the fbi stuff, the, the, the, the threats to local officials for, you know, with criminal investigations, for obstructing immigration enforcement, down to the firing of 20 prosecutors in the u.s. attorney's office in

d.c. who worked on the. on the on the capitol riot cases. and one last thing. it just seems that we have moved from what we might have expected during the transition that trump and company would go after jack smith and the individuals involved in his two prosecutions. while some of what he does is being litigated in court and may not have been legal in terms of personnel moves, i think it was widely expected that people who were involved in those investigations were going to see some impact. i think the thing that has really been most stunning is that he has extended all of these actions to encompass the january 6th defendants and also ancillary political figures who were investigated sufficiently to warrant an indictment. so trump is moving ahead, not just on cases that involved him directly, but this whole universe, the whole universe of criminality and alleged criminality of people who were allied to him or charged with

things similar to what he was charged with. >> glenn thrush, really important question about all of that. really important reporting. is it bove or bove? i've heard both in the last hour. >> i have heard. here's what i'll tell you. emil. >> i don't know. okay. >> i am. >> not emil. >> it's emil. okay. let me let me ask you two questions. i mean, here's here's what the democrats, i think so far have failed to articulate. and the republicans, i should say, should, but they they clearly don't care. they're in on this enthusiastic about it. and i think they've made that clear with have they've acted as all these characters and all these egos have come across the transom and they've had nary a concern or a whimper or a whine. what i want to understand is, are they offering any reassurances that a woman owned business or a minority owned business, or a business with an

lgbtq plus flag outside would be protected if it were burned to the ground? i mean, what is interesting is that they are destroying the fbi as it's existed for a generation. and other than your reporting and senator durbin and a handful of others, it's a rather muted response. >> there is it is remarkable that this isn't getting as much as much attention. i think what is going on now is really remarkable. i don't want to use the term unprecedented. i banned that from my life. but we are seeing movement here that we haven't. you know, and the listen, the j. edgar hoover period, 48 years at the at the justice at the fbi was no walk in the park. there were tremendous abuses. and, you know, the republicans have made accusations, as did hillary clinton, about the way that the fbi handled those investigations. totally legitimate. but it is really

beyond comprehension and was not part of the political campaign or anything trump said during the political campaign. that would indicate that you're going to send out a questionnaire to 5 or 6000 agents, asking them essentially whether or not they worked on j six cases. these were righteous cases that in terms of the jury results. i mean, people were convicted even even the obstruction charge, which was nullified by the supreme court, represented a relative minority of the charges that these capitol riot rioters were accused of before they were pardoned by the president. we are really going into territory, nicole, that we have never been in before. >> maya wiley, how would you answer the question? why does this matter? look. >> we're talking about a law enforcement agency, a law enforcement. >> agency that. >> literally has 37,000 employees. >> now. >> if you want to turn it into.

>> an. >> agency where you have 37,000 loyalists who ignore the rule of law because their. >> biggest interest. >> is. ensuring that donald trump is happy, you no longer have a law enforcement agency. you have a weaponized department. of government that can be utilized. >> to. >> harm people. if you will harm your own fbi. agents rights, which is essentially what kash patel is being accused of, unproven. but we they do have rights. they have employment rights. they have all kinds of rights. if you're willing to do that in order to kiss a ring, you are willing to do anything to. any of us. and this is an agency that has an a history in our nation of actually subversive activity. and we got past it. i mean, thanks to the civil rights movement, thanks to oversight, we actually got to. a place where no longer could a j. edgar hoover unilaterally use it for his own ends. now we have

something very different, which is a president of the united states seeking to use it for his own ends. but once you train law enforcement on the personal interests of the most powerful person in the country, it can be. utilized against any single one of us for any single reason. and that should concern all of us. >> how should democrats talk about this? i mean, how do you how do you illustrate in a way that isn't the democrats defending an institution that trump and his allies have successfully smeared for nine years? how are you explaining that if your if your business is defrauded and the person defrauding them is a trump ally, they won't investigate them aggressively. if your home insurance is canceled a week before a flood, and that insurance company contributed to the inauguration of donald trump, they will not be prosecuted by white collar. i mean, how do you tell those stories? >> well, you just did, nicole. and i think we have to drill it

down into the regular lives of people, right. >> which you and i have talked about a lot. >> but remember what the fbi does as a law enforcer. it investigates people. so say any one of us sitting at this table, or any one of us who doesn't have the profile we have, says. >> something that the. >> white house doesn't like, and they open an at criminal investigation. we've already seen the. department of justice under pam bondi go after corporations saying they're going to use prosecutorial power to go after them with from what i can tell, from what i can see, zero probable cause to get them to stop lawful activities, to ensure that they're protecting people's civil rights. so, you. >> know. we've got. >> to drill it down into what they do every day and how much of it touches our lives. i mean, kash patel is a person who pretended in that same hearing, you showed a clip of said that he didn't know stu peters. stu peters is someone that the anti-defamation league has called a prolific anti-semite.

one of the things the department of justice does is it prosecute, it investigates hate crimes. hate crimes is every last one of us. hate crimes can be in anybody's neighborhood and community. if it starts deciding who does not need to be saved from hate crimes, as opposed to who should be protected. that's a power that kash patel, who claimed he didn't know steve stu peters, despite. having talked. >> to. him eight. >> times, will have the power to decide. so i think it is true that this impacts all of us in a very regular way, and we have to talk about it that way. >> kristi. >> yeah. look, i think. >> to your point. >> about messaging, looking at. >> this as. >> i don't think that. >> the american people. >> want a mass purging of the fbi. >> people care. >> about crimes being enforced. >> in fact, a. >> large part of the republican message was about violent crime. >> run amok. well. >> that's not what these nominees. >> are talking about. they're not. talking about violent

crime. what they're talking. >> about is retribution for the president. >> and so. >> i think it's really. important to. >> just focus. on not. >> only the profile of. >> who they. >> are, but what they really intend to do. >> and looking at. >> somebody like kash patel. >> somebody who a federal judge. >> when he testified in. >> court, said, i do not find this. person to be a credible witness under oath. >> somebody who pled the. >> fifth. >> when asked in. >> the mar-a-lago. >> documents case to testify. before a. grand jury, you only plead the fifth when you're seeking to avoid self-incrimination. >> there's no other reason to. do it. and kash. >> patel. >> who's been both a prosecutor and a public defender. well knows that. and then you have him. the third thing that i still can't get. >> over. >> is you have a. nominee to be the fbi director who shared a post of an eye image of himself taking a chainsaw. >> to different elected officials. >> that's the kind of. >> thing that gets the secret service. >> to your door. that's not the person that gets nominated. >> and confirmed. >> to be the fbi director. i

mean, this is so the idea. >> that he would perjure. >> himself is not shocking at all. and watching that, hearing it seemed as though senator booker was asking. very pointed. >> questions that. >> as a. >> very well-trained. >> lawyer, he knew the answer to already. so i think he did a great job at that hearing and kind of sussing out some of these, these perjury examples. but where. >> will it end? >> like will that really convince, will that really take any of these other republicans over the line to say, no, this person is unfit, they know he's unfit. >> but they're. >> going along with it anyway. >> yeah. i mean, i guess, you know, fool me once. shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me. and i was thinking about the process of reporting in revelations. and maybe the point isn't for john thune to find his moral compass. i know who he was. i don't know who he is, but we should all see clearly what he's revealed. he is a supplicant to donald trump's will, and he knows better. but that's not the story. the story

seems to be to make these revelations public, to protect the workforce, to say, you know, if months down the road, someone at the pentagon sees any of the behavior that was described or experiences that they know that there is something in the record that pete had access owned. sister in law tried to sound the alarms about. i mean, it seems to put the entire republican party on notice that, you know, we see you and i wonder if you go beyond the confirmation process, which seems set in stone. the republicans are going to confirm all these people not because they think they're acceptable, but they're afraid to say that up is up and down is down, and they're all staring at a naked donald trump. but they have to say he's dressed beautifully. what what is the significance to the fbi workforce of these revelations coming out, glenn? >> well, first, i just want to talk a little bit about the confirmation hearings and the bondi one as well. i've covered a lot of these things. the nutritional value of these confirmation hearings has diminished over the years. and it was it was popcorn at this one. there was really from the

republican side. you it was these folks were just running for cover. the most significant interaction was between senator john kennedy of louisiana. i'm talking on the republican side, in which he he he counseled kash patel twice, lectured him twice, which is the senator's favored mode of communication. the lecture but saying, but saying to him, you're not going to burn this house down. you're not going to burn this house down, and patel said. patel said repeatedly that that he wouldn't do that. so, right as this was going on that very day, these personnel moves were going into motion. we were getting rumblings of it. and i very much presume that senator booker was hearing about it, which is why he asked those questions with such great specificity to get patel on the record, to at least commit to a process. and what was really, really interesting after this was we had initially

been hearing and just to harken back to that day, these rumors about 88 people being walked out of the washington field office of the fbi, unheard of complete destruction of that vital office. eventually, what it came down to was an email or a memo that committed to a quote unquote process. so what booker was able to accomplish, i believe, in that hearing, was to at least slow the train down and to get them to commit to a process. and i don't know that would have happened had he not interacted with them. >> yeah. it's clear that these confirmation hearings are are not i think what we think we're looking at, they're not necessarily to try to find what's been going on for nine years. find three republicans with courage, find eight republicans that will say on tv or in front of the public what they say privately or to people like you and me on signal. it's about slowing down the train and trying to protect some of the actual individuals doing these jobs, which is amazing, because it means that cory booker cares

more about the fbi's ability to fight crime than kash patel does. it's just it's amazing. i need all of you to stick around. there are about 30,000 stories that i need all of you on. one of them just happened in the last 30 minutes. donald trump versus the courts a few minutes ago with elon musk as his co-president, fielding questions alongside him in the oval office. donald trump, the president on the right, said it's time to look at the, quote, judges. much more on that ahead. plus, the justice department signaling the end of prosecutorial independence today at the much ballyhooed and heralded s.d.n.y once called the sovereign office. not anymore news today that doj is moving to drop the corruption investigation against new york city mayor eric adams. move that doesn't just benefit eric adams. we'll talk about that. and later in the broadcast, donald trump's wholesale dismantling of any and all guardrail that holds him and his administration accountable. all those stories and much more on deadline. white house

on deadline. white house continues after a quick break. (man) got one more antoine. (vo) with usps ground advantage, it's like you're with us every step of the way. ♪ (man) cooool. ♪ (man) right on time! (vo) stay in the know. from your dock... to their door. where ya headed? susan: where am i headed? am i just gonna take what the markets gives me? no. i can do some research. ya know, that's backed by j.p. morgan's leading strategists like us. when you want to invest with more confidence... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management when emergency strikes, first responders are the first ones in... but on outdated networks, the crucial technology they depend on, is limited. that's why t-mobile created t-priority... ...the only solution built for the 5g era,

that can dynamically dedicate up to 10 times the capacity for first responders. t-priority. built for tomorrow's emergencies. ready today. (♪♪) (man 1) we're standing up for our right to be lazy. (woman 1)oday. by sitting down. (man 2) and reclining back. (man 3) 'cause we work hard and want to relax harder. (man 4) we, the lazy, are taking back lazy... (woman 2) ...on our la-z-boy furniture. (vo) la-z-boy. long live the lazy.

eating with every healthy, tasty bite and the evidence wagging tails. >> skating for over 45. >> years has taken a toll on my body. i take qunol turmeric because it helps with healthy joints and inflammation support. why qunol has superior absorption compared to regular absorption compared to regular turmeric you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean. not spreadsheets... you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. our matching platform lets you spend less time searching and more time connecting with candidates. visit indeed.com/hire

explore how the democratic party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next. the blueprint with jen psaki. listen now. >> what we do is. >> try to. >> cut right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington that day. >> and it seems hard to believe that judges want to try and stop us from looking for corruption, especially when we found hundreds of millions of dollars worth much more than that in just a short period of time. we want to weed out the corruption, and it seems hard to believe that a judge could say, we don't want you to do that. so maybe we have to look at the judges, because that's a very serious i think it's a very serious violation. i'll ask elon musk to say a few words and we'll take some questions. elon go ahead.

>> sure. >> so the at a high. >> level, you say what is. the goal of d.o.j. or and i think a significant part. >> of. >> the presidency is to restore. >> democracy. >> this may seem like well, are we in. >> a democracy. >> well, if you don't have a feedback loop, okay. >> we'd have. >> to if you. >> that's all right. >> so. >> so the gravitas. >> can be difficult sometimes. >> so if. >> if there's not a good feedback loop. >> from the people. >> to the, to the government, and if you have rule of the. >> the bureaucrat. >> if the. >> bureaucracy is in charge. and then what meaning does democracy actually have? if the people cannot vote and have their will be decided by their elected. representatives in the form of the president. and the senate and the house, then we don't live in a democracy. if we live in a bureaucracy. so it's incredibly important that we close that feedback loop. >> we fix that feedback.

>> loop. >> and that the public, the public's elected representatives. the president, the house and the senate decide what happens. >> as opposed to. >> a large unelected bureaucracy. >> this is not to say that. >> there aren't some good. there are good people who are in the federal bureaucracy. but but you can't have an autonomous federal bureaucracy. you have to have one that is responsive to. the people. >> that's the whole. >> point of a democracy. and so and. >> if you look at the if. >> you look at the founders today and said, what do you think of the way. things have turned out? well, we have this unelected, fourth unconstitutional branch of, of government, which is the bureaucracy, which has in a lot of ways, currently more power than any elected representative. and this is. >> a this. >> is not something that people want. and it's not it does not match the will of the people. so it's just something we've got to we've got to fix. and we've also got to address the deficit.

>> so we've got a. >> $2 trillion deficit. and if this if we don't do something about this deficit, the country's going bankrupt. i mean, it's really astounding that the, the interest payments alone on the national debt exceed the defense department budget, which is shocking because we've got a lot we spend a lot of money on defense. but and if that just keeps going, we're essentially going to bankrupt the country. so what i really want to say is like, it's not optional for us to reduce the federal expenses. it's essential. it's essential for america to remain solvent as a country. >> it's essential for them to fact check it a little bit. one irony died while he was talking. the only unelected party in any of this is elon musk. andrew natsios, who was the administrator of usaid, a lifelong republican and self-described hard line conservative, said it took one month to turn the mission of usaid in the direction of a hard

right conservative agenda from the clinton years. so the idea that the bureaucracy, as elon musk is describing, isn't responsive to the policymaker is destroyed by the fact pattern, as testified to by democratic and republican cabinet officials. but there you have it. the co-president, speaking much longer and in far greater detail than the president, drawing into serious question who's in charge? well, let's. >> say it ain't we the people, because i think what they just forgot in that long litany of misinformation and disinformation, which is just my. real nice way. >> of saying lies. >> there was a whole bunch. >> of. >> lying in there, starting with donald trump. >> acting like. >> a judge in the doj's case was not protecting the rights of ordinary people, which is what that case was about, right? it was actually about. >> our rights. >> every last one of us that has social security numbers in that

data. when elon musk had his employees go in and seize data, that's our data. so this whole thing and this question about elections, you. >> already pointed out the big irony. >> but the other point of this is it's actually the courts are actually created through the constitution. so it is a, an estate in the separation of powers. and it is there to protect us against the kind of overreach and lawlessness we have been watching unfold for the past three weeks, and for elon musk to call for the impeachment, which he has of this judge who was following the law, is really. >> to say. >> unless you do our. >> bidding. >> we will suggest we should come for your job, even though you are supposed to be independent from us. and that is the balance of power. and i just

thought there was one other point which is so critical, is for them to actually be saying this now when guess what? the will of the people wasn't? the will of the people was not the supreme court's overturning roe v wade and saying we couldn't have rights to decide when and how we start a family that was not the will of the people. but yet i didn't see or hear any of this about the judiciary when we got. >> that. >> ruling from the supreme court. >> let me just ask, is he still talking? is donald trump? he's still talking, i'm told. is donald trump still just listening to elon musk talk? donald trump is still right now listening to elon musk talk. so glenn thrush is a longtime watcher of donald trump and of politics in general. have you ever seen donald trump watch someone talk instead of him at an event for this long? >> the look you're seeing right there is the trump looking at the kid mowing the lawn. look, nicole, look right there.

>> yeah. >> yeah i mean here's what people don't really get is like the one, the one group of people that trump has typically over the course of his career have been fairly deferential to are bankers. he has an enormous amount of respect for people who have accumulated a lot of money. he understands money, power. and so the one person that he is less likely to sort of challenge. and this is why when people are like, when is he going to get tired of him? i think it's going to be a lot longer than people expect, because trump knows how much money that this man has. the other thing that's just kind of remarkable about this, apart from from this being sort of like this 45 second civics lesson is we do have a feedback loop. it's called article one of the constitution, and it created the congress. congress has the power of the purse, raises taxes, makes fiscal decisions, creates budget bills. we're seeing that awful, terrible process playing out right now in the house, and it will ultimately get resolved. and all and various players have leverage. that is the way this

democracy is, is put together. now the other the alternate model here. and i think what people are failing to sort of understand necessarily this is not about efficiency and corruption. he does doge and musk's folks are coders. this isn't the general accounting office. they're not doing a rational assessment of where the money ought to be spent. and as we know, budgets are moral documents. these are decisions made by representatives about how the government is going to spend its money. no, this is about shrinking radically domestic spending, because we noticed we haven't doge hasn't really gone fulsomely after military spending. but this is about domestic or discretionary international spending on programs that democrats and liberals have established over the years. so this is about destruction of an entire idea of government, about about communality, of public spending and government being a tool to

address inequities both racially, economically and societally. now, elections do have consequences, but we have never seen anything like this. an individual who is coming from the private space, who presumably wants to take some of these functions and privatize them, perhaps for his own economic to his own ultimate economic advantage. >> i mean, glenn, two things come to mind. i mean, one, you've now got the republicans and the maga movement in the position of defending the acronyms. i mean, every every republican has to defend doge. what's doge? why do i care about why is doge of all the power but two what you just said they didn't go in with forensic accountants, which would have been a i mean, there's some of musk's rhetoric that i imagine does resonate beyond the right, and that is creating efficiencies inside the bureaucracy. but what people don't understand about the bureaucracy is they hunger for that. they hunger for direction every four years, especially when the white house changes parties, they await their new blueprint. that's not what elon musk is doing. he didn't go in

with a single forensic account that i've seen reported in your publication or ours. he went in with coders with with, you know, really controversial online footprints without any budgetary experience, without any accounting experience. and they pursued everyone's personal information. do we know or was anyone able to ascertain why? >> i again, we're sort of we're, we're we're in terra incognita. we don't even know who a lot of these people are. we don't know how many of these folks are embedded into the government. i will tell you, having covered the transition, there was a much different idea of how doge was going to function. the sense was that it was going to create sort of this second bureaucracy that was going to be watching, almost like an additional ig embedded. no one expected them to sort of head towards the nexus of power, and you have to hand it to musk. musk understands power. he knows where the wall socket is and how

to pull out a plug that he is completely aware of in a way that i think a lot of the people who oppose him aren't. he sees this entire system in this country from a power perspective. trump does as well. but but musk has a real genius for figuring out how to turn off the how to how to turn off the surge protector for the us government. but it does not necessarily have to do with with an assessment of any given program. because if you look, i've read tons of gao reports and sat through a lot of boring congressional hearings and really where you really catch the savings apart from kind of the health care sector, and there's not a huge will at the moment, congressionally to examine that in a, in a really rapacious way is defense spending. and he hasn't gone near that. if you're if you were serious about really cutting that cutting waste, fraud and abuse, you should start with the pentagon. but he hasn't. >> and i'm guessing the entitlements and defense are the

big drivers of the size of the budget. and instead their their stated intent is to traumatize the workforce of agencies like usaid, which the only thing i would i would differ with glenn on is republicans have enthusiastically boosted the budgets of usaid as well. i think the application of usaid programs to help fight terrorism all exploded under george w bush. >> well, and also, we relied on usaid to help advance freedom of information, freedom of speech across the globe, which is actually also helpful to us here in the united states. i just want to point out. one additional thing, though, as we watch elon musk stand there with his young son right. in the frame. >> and what. >> one of the things that doge just. put on the chopping block was millions of dollars for researching how we improve the

education of our children. >> now. >> that has been cut to your point, no forensic accounting. one of the central roles of the department of education to try to improve public education. one of the executive orders that donald trump initiated early was also to. >> take funding out of. >> public education, a step that some will argue will be towards privatizing public education. and elon musk's son will be fine because elon musk can spend all the money he has available to him to ensure his child gets what his child needs. the reason we have a federal department of education, which is also not only on the chopping block but is on the weaponization list by donald trump. >> mcmahon, his nominee. >> for the. >> department of. >> education, is up for hearing. it is going to be a repeat like we saw kash patel, like we saw pam bondi, pete hegseth, unqualified, uncaring and unable

to ensure that our children, the ones for people who can't afford a private education, are going to figure out how to get better reading and literacy programs. that's what he put on the chopping block. >> christie the ire, the headline. one of the headlines will also be we're going to look at the judges, and the judges are doing what no republican would dare to do, and that is asking about the legality, asking about the consequences, asking some of the questions that glenn is asking. shocking but not surprising. >> foolish. >> shocking but not surprising, but horrifying. the judge in particular, that elon musk has directed his ire at judge paul. engelmayer in. >> the. southern district. >> of new york that appeared before a judge engelmayer many times tried a case before him. there is not a harder working judge in that courthouse, not a

smarter judge in that courthouse. he is ten steps ahead of everybody in that courtroom. i mean, bring it on. you want to look at the judges? this is such an honorable person. that is the last person you would want to pick a fight with. and ultimately, i do think when this finds its way to the supreme court, i don't think he is going to find a receptive ear in justice roberts, because justice roberts, already in his end of year report, was having real issues with this attack on the judiciary. >> and if. >> yes, they care a lot about presidential power and building that up, but they also care about their own power and people who are just going to willy nilly say, who cares about what the judge's orders are? i don't think justice roberts or judge justice coney barrett. i don't think they're going to take kindly to that. so we'll see what happens. >> to christie's point. glenn, quickly, i mean, we're going to look at the judges is the way trump talks about a target he's not really sure about, as opposed to this news that just broke his attack on the associated press over refusing

to rename the gulf of mexico the gulf of america. this is a statement from the ap. as a global news organization, the ap informs billions of people around the world every day with factual, nonpartisan journalism. today, we were informed by the white house that if the ap did not align its editorial standards with president donald trump's executive order renaming the gulf of mexico the gulf of america, the associated press would be barred from accessing an event in the oval office. this afternoon's ap reporter was blocked from attending an executive order signing. it is alarming that the trump administration would punish ap for its independent journalism, limiting our access to the oval office based on the content of ap speech not only severely impedes the public's access to independent news, it plainly violates the first amendment. your thoughts? >> well, first of all, shout out to my old buddy julie pace, who's the washington editor for ap, who is who is always stood up. look, they tried to do this in the first beginning of the first trump term, where they tried to create these like

buffet briefings, where they kicked all of the people out who were perceived as being negative to trump and just talk to their own people. and they scrapped that. you know why? because if you're not hanging around covering trump, he doesn't like that. the truth of the matter is he needs an audience. the problem with a lot of these availabilities, as you can see from the one that's going on, is they're more like their appearances, they're media events. they're not really question and answers. he's not being allowing follow up questions. so to some extent these are not really super important events. we can watch them on tv. but in general, likes to thin the media herd. he likes to have ad ound him. so ik ultimately this kind of falls to the level of a prank and a distraction. and this will come and this will go. >> it's amazing. i feel like i need a t shirt that says that about these times. this will come and this will go up next for all of us. eric adam's relationship with donald trump looks from the outside like it's

paying off handsomely for him. we'll look at the bombshell coming out of the justice department next. >> the first 100 days, it's a critical time for our country. and rachel maddow is on five nights a week. >> now is the time. so we're going to do it. >> settle in the rachel maddow show weeknights at 9:00 on msnbc. >> donald trump is defending the mass firings of federal watchdogs. >> our federal. >> government now can discriminate against. >> the citizens. >> of the country. >> we are all. >> watching and waiting. >> watching and waiting. >> to see some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking allstate first. like you know to check your outfit first before meeting your girlfriend's family. that's a tough one to recover from steve. so check allstate first yeah. for a quote that could save you hundreds. socks, underwear and t-shirts are the most requested items in homeless shelters. bombas was founded to help. so one purchased equals one donated, with 140 million donations and counting.

visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order. zyrtec allergy relief works fast and lasts a full 24 hours so dave can be the... deliverer of dance. ok, dave! let's be more than our allergies. zeize the day with zyrtec. i didn't think someone like me was at risk of shingles. the rash couldn't possibly be that painful. and it wouldn't disrupt my life for weeks. i was wrong. i didn't know that 99% of people over 50 already have the virus that causes shingles and it could reactivate at any time. i learned that the hard way, but you don't have to. talk to your healthcare provider today. rest. it's super beats. discover

why more cardiologists recommend super beats for heart health support than any other beat brand at super beats. >> com skating. >> for over 45 years has taken a toll on my body. i take qanon turmeric because it helps with healthy joints and inflammation support. why qunol has superior absorption compared to regular absorption compared to regular turmeric new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job on indeed, it's easier for talented candidates to find it. which makes it easier for you to hire them. visit indeed.com/hire (vo) is your asthma rescue a dinosaur? airsupra is the only asthma rescue inhaler fda-approved which makes it easier for you to hire them. to treat symptoms and help prevent asthma attacks. airsupra should not be used as a maintenance treatment for asthma. get medical help right away if your breathing doesn't improve or worsens or for serious allergic reactions, like rash, mouth or tongue swelling, trouble breathing or swallowing, or chest pain. using airsupra more than prescribed could be life-threatening. serious side effects include increased risk of thrush or infections, or heart problems like faster heart rate

and higher blood pressure. ask your doctor if airsupra is right for you. works. >> differently than drops. blink nutri tears is a once daily supplement clinically proven to hydrate from within, helping your eyes produce more of their own tears. to promote lasting, continuous relief you'll feel. day after day. >> try blink neutral. >> tears a different way. >> to. >> support dry eyes. >> blink tears. >> in a move that one official describes as an instance of, quote, transparent corruption, donald trump's justice department has ordered the prosecutors in the southern district of new york to drop the federal criminal charges against new york city mayor eric adams. the director came in a memo last night from acting deputy attorney general emil bove, or

bob, who says that doj, quote, has reached this conclusion without assessing the strength of the evidence or the legal theories on which the case is based. in short, they're not even trying to hide the fact that this is political. mayor eric adams was indicted in september of last year, nine months before the mayoral primary scheduled for june. the charges include wire fraud, conspiracy to commit wire fraud and soliciting campaign contributions from foreign nationals for a pay to play scheme so simple a child could understand it. the mayor allegedly got illegal campaign contributions and travel benefits from turkish officials for more than ten years, and eric adams allegedly repaid them by providing favors to them. things like pressuring the new york fire department to allow a new turkish consulate building to open without an inspection. adams pleaded not guilty and has denied all wrongdoing, which he reiterated again today. the charges are the end result of a

probe worked on by these nonpartisan career prosecutors and fbi agents, and just a month ago, s.d.n.y said, they had uncovered uncovered more evidence of more criminal conduct by eric adams. there's not one shred of evidence that the charges against eric adams were ever politically motivated. the facts, however, are secondary in donald trump's justice department to a new principle. what donald trump wants what benefits donald trump, donald trump gets. the president has called mayor adams a victim of an unjust political persecution just like him. as for the mayor, he visited donald trump in mar-a-lago, florida, last month. he attended the inauguration. he has declined to criticize anything the trump administration has done in recent weeks. now, the trump justice department is moving to get the charges against adams dismissed with prejudice, according to the new york times. that means, quote, the case could be revived if merited or if it please the president. we're back with glenn christie and glenn. what is happening at

the us attorney's office in dc is appalling, but there is something different when it happens at s.d.n.y. explain. >> s.d.n.y. i'm a new yorker, so forgive me for using this metaphor. it is the yankee stadium of federal prosecutor's office. it's really central. for one thing, it you know, it's produced a number of luminaries, one of whom was was rudy giuliani back in the day. but this case against adams, you know, it has been criticized by, by by people on both sides. but the way that this was dismissed, the claims and one of the most extraordinary parts of this is in a letter memo to danielle sassoon, the interim us attorney there, he brings up that this might impinge on her, on adams's

capacity to vigorously prosecute the immigration enforcement actions that the that the white house wants done immediately. because when he was indicted, adams was stripped of his security clearances, which have subsequently been restored. so it is the first time that i can recall, first of all, i don't think anyone that i interviewed and i'd be interested in hearing your guests opine on this. i've never seen a memo like this on, on, on many levels, but in particularly to cite a policy slash political justification for withdrawing these, apart from its proximity to the election, the fact that he won't be able to help trump, trump and trump officials execute the immigration policy is remarkable. and the other thing i will tell you that was also remarkable is and we included this in our story, trump administration officials, two of them told me that felt compelled

to tell me that there was no quid pro quo, meaning that dismissal of these charges was not an attempt to get from adams in return, a commitment to do immigration enforcement. >> maybe it says the quote preceded the quid. i mean, okay, christie, i. >> mean, this memo is so infuriating. he gives two reasons why he is directing s.d.n.y to dismiss this. first, he said, well, there's the timing of this case, as well as the fact that recent actions of the former sdny us attorney damian williams raised concerns about weaponization and political prosecution. let's just take both of those. first, there's a 6090 day rule that's informal within doj, which basically says between 60 to 90 days before an election, don't take any sort of overt action in

law enforcement to investigate or charge somebody to influence the election. this indictment came down nine months before the mayoral election. what is the timing concern? that's the first question. second, these recent actions of the former u.s. attorney. so damian williams a few weeks ago authored an op ed about reforms that he thought could take place in new york state. never mentioned mayor adams was just kind of a broader look, having been a public corruption prosecutor for many years, here are some things i think we could do. how is that weaponization? in fact, the line prosecutors, as well as the u.s. attorney who's serving in the interim, danielle sassoon, a scalia clerk, a federalist society member who was selected by the trump administration to be that interim person. they all signed off and said this investigation did not start because of damian williams. it started because of evidence found by career law enforcement

officers, and we continued it even when he left. so they stood by this, and the judge agreed with them and said he he violated no rules here. so that first bucket, that first reason given is ridiculous. then you have the second reason, which is that it's because we have to dismiss it, but with without prejudice, so that we could maybe bring it back if he doesn't do what we say. essentially, in following through with trump's plans on immigration and violent crime in new york city, that is wholly inappropriate. the judge's docket should not be dependent upon whether or not the mayor is following the president's political agenda. that is so inappropriate. and so if your judge ho and you get this request from sdny, you need to hold a hearing. he's a new judge, you need to hold a hearing, and you need to ask a lot of hard questions about this, about whether or not this is in the interest of justice. he has limited power here, but he does need to make sure that

this is in the interest of justice. and if i'm the judge, i dismiss it with prejudice. i'm not letting the mayor of new york city become a puppet to the president to just be there, serving his own interests rather than the interests of the people of new york. i mean, this is it's an outrageous memo, and i know that it is provoked really strong reactions within s.d.n.y. >> when did anybody quit at s.d.n.y, a department sort of prized and prided on. independence. >> it's the day is yet young. we don't really know. and the other thing that's really important is the pressure is really on danielle sassoon. what was interesting is when we first got word of this yesterday morning, it seemed like it was a fait accompli that it was simply going to be dismissed. it is noteworthy, if you look at the language behind all the in all the stories today, it was. bove, bove. instructing sassoon to take these measures. the question is, will she personally

execute them? or she also has the option to step aside and say that she doesn't want to do this. we're not as of this hour. i haven't checked in. we're not at all certain how that's going to play out. >> i want to remind us of something from the first trump administration, which is we had a us attorney for the southern district of new york. resign because. >> jeff berman. >> jeff berman, because he felt that the president was trying to direct how he should guide his office. it was outrageous then, and this. >> is even more outrageous. >> and it's not only outrageous because the memo itself says the quiet. >> part out loud. >> because it does do our bidding. you'll be fine, don't you will be in trouble. it is because we're also hearing, reporting that eric adams has actually been telling his administration, do not criticize the president, cooperate on immigration. and when you are

and i'm a new yorker, too. and i ran for office against eric adams. so full disclosure, i never expected this. and i think we have to call it what it is. it is an outrageous permission to be corrupt and to not be accountable as long as you do the bidding of a president of. >> the united states. >> that is unheard of. it is unheard of from an office that i have to say, we all held tremendous pride in the fact that we were independent, and that the only reason we would be told not to do a case was because we didn't have sufficient support for it. >> it's amazing so many died. >> so this and this is also the message to everyone else in every other jurisdiction of the country. it is not only about

new york, and we all have to say enough. >> it's amazing. glenn thrush, christie greenberg, maya wiley, what a pleasure to have all of you for the hour. thank you so much ahead for us. donald trump's pattern of evading accountability, coming in strong so far in his second term, the latest guardrails to come tumbling down in the next hour of deadline. white house starts after a very short break. stay with us. >> i think i changed my mind about these glasses. >> yeah. >> it happens. >> that's why visionworks. >> gives you 100 days to change. your mind. it's simple. >> anything else i can help. >> anything else i can help. >> you between molly leaving and mom's osteoporosis, i thought life was gonna slow down. boy, was i wrong. if you have postmenopausal osteoporosis and are at high risk for fracture, evenity® can help you rapidly build new bone in just 12 months. evenity® is the only bone builder that also helps slow bone loss. and it's proven to significantly reduce spine fracture risk. she said the evenity® she's taking builds new bone.

builds new bone! (squeak) so...yeah...we still bike, babysit, and brunch with the ladies. evenity® can increase risk of heart attack, stroke, or death from a heart problem. tell your doctor if you have had a heart attack or stroke. do not take evenity® if you have low blood calcium or are allergic to it, as serious events have occurred with evenity®. signs include rash, hives, swelling of the face or throat, which may cause difficulty in swallowing or breathing, muscle spasms or cramps, numbness, or tingling. tell your doctor about severe jaw bone problems, as they have been reported with evenity®. report hip, groin, or thigh pain. unusual thigh bone fractures have occurred with evenity®. ask your doctor about building new bone with evenity®. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans help you find new trading opportunities, while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. (sneeze) (hooves approaching) not again. your cold is coming! your cold is coming!

thanks...revere. we really need to keep zicam in the house. only if you want to shorten your cold! when you feel a cold coming, shorten it with zicam (revere: hyah) it can deplete their. >> coq10 levels. i recommend. >> coq10 levels. i recommend. >> taking qanon did you know grocery outlet app gives you the opportunity to win groceries for life? imagine never paying for groceries again. well, what if i can't decide?

avocados or tomatoes? why choose? at grocery outlet, you can afford both. and not just the basics. with grocery outlet, you'll find all your favorite brands included. including gluten free pasta and my favorite cookies? um, huh, everything's included. so burgers and steaks for life?! you gotta win first. still worth it. now that's bargain bliss. ♪ grocery outlet bargain market >> these are people who have conflict of interests. they have financial stakes. >> rfk jr had to update his entire ethics agreement because

we shined a light on his conflicts of interest. >> expansive conflicts of interest. >> it is a clear conflict. >> of interest. >> there are radical conflicts of interest. he is overseeing his own. >> government contract. >> hi again everybody. it's now 5:00 in new york. one thing there is no shortage of in this second trump presidency. conflicts of interest. so when a government that says it values radical transparency, one might think that a monitoring of these potential conflicts would be their idea. and then assured that everything will be on the up and up. right? no. in fact, the man in charge of monitoring all of this, the director of oge, that means office of government ethics, was fired by donald trump late last night when he took office. david hudema had said of trump's appointees this, quote, there will be pressure to move fast and we must all be as efficient as possible. but there is no shortcut. ethics officials must ensure that reporting

requirements are followed, that reports are complete, and that potential conflicts are evaluated. the firing of this now former office of government ethics director, who was confirmed by the united states senate in november of 2024 for a five year term. as to the growing list of watchdogs and investigators who aren't supposed to be tied to the presidential four year cycle, who trump has removed since he took office. there were his friday night firings of more than a dozen inspectors general. the firings of doj prosecutors who were involved in special counsel jack smith's cases against trump, and the targeting and potential purge of fbi agents who were involved in the cases of the january 6th rioters. the associated press reports on the pattern, quote, it's all being done with a stop me if you can dare. defiance by a president who, the first time around, felt hemmed in by watchdogs, lawyers and judges tasked with affirming good government and fair play. now he

seems determined to break those constraints once and for all. in an historically unprecedented flex of executive power. senator sheldon whitehouse put it this way, quote, the robbers are clearing out the police. watch your wallets. we do not know the exact reasoning behind the firing of this latest official. although senator adam schiff put out this on social media, quote, this morning, i sent a letter to the office of government ethics regarding elon musk's potential conflicts of interest. within minutes, the white house confirmed receipt. by noon, trump fired the director of oge. i want to know, was this to prevent his answer? what we do know at the moment is what the new york times reported back in october about musk. musk companies, quote, were promised $3 billion across nearly 100 different contracts last year with 17 federal agencies. donald trump dismantling ethics and integrity guardrails for those in his administration is where

we begin the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. former u.s. attorney, former deputy assistant attorney general harry lichtman is here. also joining us, host of the bulwark podcast, msnbc political analyst tim miller is here with me at the table for the hour, host of the fast politics podcast and special correspondent for vanity fair, molly jong-fast is here. plus, democratic strategist and professor at columbia university, msnbc political analyst basil michael is here. tim miller, i want to start with you on the politics of all this. democrats seem psyched out by the pace of trump's. i don't even know. we're well beyond norm busting, potentially illegal conduct and destroying the government he now leads. takes too long, but i'll find a shorter way to say it. give me four years. what i see as an opportunity for democrats is that they're the ones that now have to defend the acronyms, the

doge and the, you know, all of the stuff they're doing in the name of trumpism. is not what people voted for. it does not seek to benefit their small businesses. it will not help them if they lose their insurance before a wildfire burns down their house. and the insurer is a trump ally. i mean, just just talk about sort of the exposed flanks of the maga movement right now. >> look. >> there are a lot of them. and i. >> guess you. >> started with the. >> oversight side of things, like. >> there is. >> a reason. >> not to be all earnest. >> for a. >> second, but there's. >> a reason that that we actually. want government. agencies to have oversight and that if you're an administration, you. wanted to have strong oversight because the federal government is huge. >> and if you have. >> people that are acting illegally or improperly somewhere in the government. >> that's going. >> to. reflect bad on you. >> if you've. >> created a culture where there is absolutely no oversight, where. they have total carte blanche. >> to do.

>> whatever they. >> want, and where you've. >> staffed the government with like the 100 weirdest people at the heritage foundation. >> like they're all. >> going to advance. >> like they're going to advance some very unpopular policies, and some of. >> them. >> are. >> probably going to be corrupt because. >> there's good people in every administration that's bipartisan. and they're. >> some of them. >> are. >> going to do things illegally. and probably now in this administration, because you don't have any watchdogs. >> the sheldon. >> whitehouse was saying. >> they're. >> going to be incentivized to do. stuff illegally. >> like all. >> of that. this is. >> going to take time, right? like it's going to take time fo. >> the consequences of all that to bear fruit. but like there will be consequences. >> and it. >> is absolutely, you know. >> critical as. >> we go. >> through this process. >> for the. >> democrats to be as. aggressive in fighting. >> it and in raising. >> the alarm about it. and in, in. >> in. >> making passionate. >> you know, commentary about it. >> as it is for those guys to do it right, like.

>> you have. >> to meet whatever. >> i hate to even use the. >> phrase shock and awe. >> like. >> with with shock and awe back. right? >> and they're providing. >> a lot. >> already within the first three weeks. >> they're providing a lot of. >> opportunity on that front. >> i mean, just just to pick up the point on the politics of it. we'll get to the legality in a second. but the politics of removing people who make $125 a year, who are in charge of making sure you don't get scammed by your government with a guy who makes $3 billion a year from the government seem relatively simple. >> it is simple. >> and that's why i do think, you see, you know, democrats push back and they talk a lot about jasmine crockett. but there's also. tish james in new york who's taken the administration to court saying, don't, don't freeze these nih funds. right. so there are democrats who have. been traditionally holding donald trump accountable. we have the 34 felonies because of the democrat in the district attorney's office. >> so i think there's still. that there's sort of the legal. >> part of it. the political part, i think is, is really

interesting because what i see is a sort of i don't want to even say grassroots, but a real ground up sort of movement to correct the record, if you will. the american medical association has a youtube page talking about the bird flu and tuberculosis, because the white house won't. there are black professors that have a tiktok account that are actually teaching people about the issues that they're experiencing, because the administration won't do that. so i think there is there are sort of big d and small d democratic outlets that are fighting back in their own way. and we've talked before about this sort of micro politics that donald trump is really good at. and i think that's what democrats are learning, that you have to be really micro-targeted go to ground. you know what? what will happen in dc will happen, will take place. so you'll have the chris murphy's of the world and others that are sort of providing the messaging and the policy from dc. but what's happening in the states, what's happening locally, actually has been really fascinating to me. and i think it's getting through

because there are folks that are talking more about it day to day, that individual people are sort of taking up the resistance. >> well, i love that and i want you to find me some of that. let's platform some of that, because i think people are so hungry to see what that looks like and to and not to deprive it of its intimacy right, with its own audience that some of what makes it so influential. but but to lift that up as instructive. but but let me just ask you this. i mean, of all the things that sort of resonate traditionally, one thing that that and it was fascinating to listen to elon musk robbing the talking points of the pro-democracy movement and talking about unelected bureaucrats, the only unelected power grab that's happened in the last three weeks is his and his coders. i mean, he said he didn't he didn't go in with forensic audit teams to say, where's the waste? he went in with coders to do god knows what i mean. there's something very easy to understand about being lied to and about a really, really rich guy going in and kicking out people who are are true public servants. >> well, it's kicking out the public servants. and then who

are you replacing them with? these 19 and 20 year olds, right. that don't have any kind of experience. and that isn't so much the issue, but the fact that you are elevating them, but at the same time cutting off opportunities for people that look like me, women, people who are who are disabled. right. so it's like you're privileging one group to find a way to punish another. isn't that exactly what you're not supposed to be doing? but you're saying that we're doing in our quote unquote minority status? how does that work when the, quote, minorities have more power than the majority? when has that ever really worked? but they're using that argument to get rid of all of this, all of this stuff that they find reprehensible at the same time, doing something incredibly reprehensible, making sure that these, these individuals who don't care at all about public service are going around and taking, potentially taking money away from people. i'll just add this quick point, the chilling effect that it has is what's problematic because you have

goldman sachs, as axios is reporting today, saying they're going to cut one of their programs so that they any of the businesses they're involved with, they don't have to necessarily have people of color or minorities on their boards, which was a program that they had, which was actually very popular. so when you have businesses and other governmental agencies saying, we're going to get rid of all of this stuff you made us do, but we're going to privilege all the people who don't deserve to be there. that message that it sends to people, to democrats in particular right now, is what's charging them. >> well, i think. >> the what. there are. two things that i was really struck by with what you were talking about here was this orwellian double speak. >> that we see. right. the richest man in the entire world, right. he funded. donald trump's campaign. >> and here he is. >> talking about. >> doing a lottery for voters in pennsylvania. >> and talking about rooting out corruption. when they fired all of. these people. >> who are tasked with. >> rooting out corruption. right. this is. >> there's no world in which this makes any sense.

>> but the other thing that i was. >> struck by. >> is that earlier. >> this year. >> and i interviewed a bunch. >> of them. >> these democratic. >> attorneys generals were already, you know, in the summer, i talked to one who was saying, you know, we're pretty we don't think that harris is going to win. we think trump is going to win. and we have been strategizing about how. we're going to, you know, we're going to fight for your rights. and i mean, that has definitely been going on with the attorneys general, the democratic ones, that they've been behind the scenes preparing lawsuits. and we saw this right away. they, you know, quick for the birthright citizenship and all of these things. and that's why we're seeing the courts hold now, again, we don't know what they're going to do with the courts. right. the trump world has already expressed some agitation about having to follow the law like everyone else. >> well, i mean, what they're going to do with the courts, i mean, today as a 512 in the east, we still live in a democracy. harry litman so what they're going to do with the courts until they don't is, is follow the law, as trump did

flirt today with looking at the judges was his language. but as things stand today, the courts are providing. i hate the word guardrails, but they are providing some slowing of his non-legal extrajudicial policy announcements. >> although they are more than just flirting, they're playing some serious footsie with the idea that they would not comply. but you are right. and what does that mean? that means they are vindicating the law. so the first thing to say about these maneuvers of trump, their penalty illegal, you have to have cause to dismiss these people. he's just completely ignoring congress as he's done repeatedly. the second thing, there's not a single instance, nicole, where any of these watchdogs have been alleged to do something wrong on the facts or the law. same theme as elsewhere. the doj making decisions not based on the facts and the law, of course, as

mollie and others said, it's the perfect recipe to permit the robbers to ransack the place. and then finally, if you push on these in every instance where watchdogs are being removed and therefore you don't have oversight, it's people, real people who are being victimized and who are prevented from having their their rights under the law vindicated. this is much more than barbarians at the gate. they are really in the in the palace and ransacking the place. >> harry litman donald trump has eliminated all the inspectors general last night after being asked about elon musk's conflicts. he gets rid of the head of the office of government ethics. his his former white house proudly defied the hatch act. the only person to survive was the ig at doj. mr. horowitz, why is that? >> you know, i'm not sure. and i

can't imagine they don't have special plans for him. it's true that one of his many reports that were issued called it for donald trump. good for him. i mean, that's part of the reputation of integrity of a watchdog is to go without fear or favor. that might be enough. certainly the reward system to date has been based on who has doled out good treatment of donald trump so far. notice that the he, horowitz, is going to have to field some of the complaints, including from people in the og himself saying you had no right to do this. i don't see horowitz as being, you know, just just someone who's going to last there forever. we'll have to see about it. but if it's the case, the only reason could be we're happy with him because he's called the shots for us. that's another way of saying that what we want in watchdogs is people who cheat on our side, because it's just not

the case that trump and his team are always right. quite the contrary. >> tim miller, let me read you sort of the headlines. we gathered under the broad topic of conflicts of interest with firings and lax enforcement. trump moving to dismantle the government's public integrity guardrails. trump businesses made $2.4 billion during his first presidency. that's from forbes, from politico judge to trump terminated ethics watchdog. you're unfired new york times trump pauses enforcement of law banning foreign bribery. you are a student of steve bannon. i'm told that he announced this week. mission accomplished in terms of flooding the zone, ethics are something that the latest polling that we could find. it was from pew. how many elected officials ran for office to make a lot of money? 63% of all respondents think they all do that, or most of them. so the

public was softened to this. trump was pushing against an open door. does what does that instruct in terms of the politics of this? for the pro-democracy movement? >> i think. >> reclaiming the. >> mantle of. >> of being the outsider, of being someone that is, of being the side that's going after public corruption. i think a lot of times the democrats, for good reason. >> like we're. >> stuck defending. >> institutions, defending. public officials because. >> they were under unfair attack. but now, you know, the republicans are in charge and they have control of all three branches. essentially, if you consider the conservative supreme court and they also now are allied with the richest people. >> in the world. >> and so the democrats now have an opportunity to regain a populist mantle when it comes to corruption and going after these guys. and there are two things i just want to call out in particular, because it does get

lost in when in the flood, as steve would call it. one is pam bondi. you mentioned it briefly. they're like basically the department of. >> justice has. >> said that they are not going to investigate public corruption. they're not going to investigate foreign interference in elections. they're not going to investigate foreign agent registration. so the department of. >> justice has. >> sent out a big flashing sign that you can be corrupt in this country, and we are not going to focus our resources on that. and if you had any doubts about that, they. >> also just left. >> the mayor, the mayor of. new york, off the hook for his corruption. so we know. >> that that. >> this corruption is going to be happening and that this administration doesn't care. number two is the is the cryptocurrency is the is the coin i was can i say the s word, the s coin that. >> that trump. >> why not. you know. >> knock yourself out. >> the you know what i mean. the poop coin. the trump launched three days before he became president. like i was just looking at some facts on this today. there are multiple

massive whales that invested. >> six seven figures. >> into this. who is that? we don't even know. like three days before the president took the oath of office. he launched this cryptocurrency. that shadowy. figures have been able to put money into. what are they getting for that? not nothing. they didn't put their money into it because they thought it was a good investment vehicle. the trump coin. you know, these smart, rich people, you know, put their money in smart investments. so if they don't think they're going to make money on the coin, they. >> have to be. >> thinking that they're going to make it somewhere else. i don't know what or how, but to me that is another just flashing red light of corruption. and hopefully that's something that, you know, investigative reporters and others are going to find out about over time. >> i want to stay on this thing. i mean, it's really pretty profound what you just articulated. they are the institutions. they are the three branches of government. i would add. they are the message delivery systems. they have

taken over x. i know you're still there for the for the giggles and laughs, but but most people don't view it as a, you know, it's sort of it's like a gambling site. go if you want to, you can lose your shirt and you, you know, get scammed. but if it's fun for you, knock yourself out. the opportunity and the lies are sort of, you know, everywhere. and they're the boring, you know, box stores. right? the disinformation is everywhere. it's the truth that's a little juicy and subversive and dangerous. i mean, the opportunity to totally flip the script, to totally rebrand the truth tellers, the public servants, and to stop uttering an acronym ever again. i mean, the institutions were on the ballot and they lost, right? people? trump. trump ran on burning down the department of justice. and as he's doing it, i ache for what i saw as the department that stood on the line between the next nine over 11 and made it not happen. robert mueller was the fbi director. i mean, like, i believe that it did great

things, but the country weighed in on that and didn't didn't care that trump was going to politicize it. what the democrats can do now is be on the side of every person who's going to get screwed, and every person who risked their life to tell the truth. and every person has to go somewhere else to find the truth. and i wonder, tim, if you see anybody talking about that with excitement and curiosity and creativity. >> you know, look, i think, you know, some of basel, basel already mentioned chris murphy. chris murphy is doing it. we're starting to see it. i hope that there are democrats that take the mantle of this like this is this could be a moment for somebody to really show passion. and again, look, there are other democrats out there. andy kim was out there. usaid, you know, if you start. >> naming people. >> you're going to. >> feel like this is a moment to really, you know, embrace, you know, being an outsider, fighting the man, fighting the powers that be, fighting the phones, fighting the big social media companies, fighting all of the billionaires and hundred millionaires that are now running our government and that

right now are spending most of their time advancing their culture war agenda and laying off and firing people that that are that, you know, that work in our communities and not just in washington dc. you know, there are people that are going to lose their jobs at at, you know, hospitals and health centers and nurses all across the country. we could go all the way down the list. so i think fighting on behalf of those people and repositioning yourself as going after the powers as opposed to defending the powers that be, i think is a huge opportunity for democrats. and we're seeing some of it. but i think it's a huge opportunity for somebody that wants to make a name for themselves and become a leader of the party going forward to be first to the punch on it right now. >> you guys got me excited. i was going anywhere. when we come back, we may soon know a lot more about the evidence in the classified documents case against donald trump, the one that led to dozens of criminal charges against him. that's because of a ruling by a federal judge who says the end of that criminal case, plus, trump's absolute immunity, means there's

no barrier for the fbi to release the evidence. the next steps, we'll tell you about them after a short break. and later, more on the story. we talked our first hour with senator dick durbin will be here. he has accused kash patel of orchestrating the firings at the fbi as a private citizen and possibly, possibly committing perjury ahead in his confirmation hearing to be the bureau's director. senator durbin will be our guest. deadline. white house continues deadline. white house continues after a quick break. don't asthma. does it have you missing out on what you love with who you love? it's time to get back out there with fasenra. fasenra is an add-on treatment for eosinophilic asthma that is taken once every 8 weeks and can also be taken conveniently at home. fasenra helps prevent asthma attacks. most patients did not have an attack in the first year. fasenra is proven to help you breathe better so you can get back to doing day-to-day activities. fasenra is not for sudden breathing problems. serious allergic reactions may occur. get help for swelling of your face,

mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. don't stop asthma treatments without talking with your doctor. tell your doctor if your asthma worsens or you have a parasitic infection. headache and sore throat may occur. get back to better breathing. get back to what you've missed. ask your doctor about fasenra, the only asthma treatment taken once every 8 weeks. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. (♪♪) so, what are you thinking? i'm thinking... (speaking to self) about our honeymoon. what about africa? safari? hot air balloon ride? swim with elephants? wait, can we afford a safari? great question. like everything, it takes a little planning. or, put the money towards a down-payment... ...on a ranch ...in montana ...with horses let's take a look at those scenarios. j.p. morgan wealth management has advisors in chase branches and tools, like wealth plan to keep you on track. when you're planning for it all... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management. when emergency strikes, first responders rely on the latest technology.

that's why t-mobile created t-priority built for the 5g era. only t-priority dynamically dedicates more capacity for first responders. doctor recommended qanon coq10. kunal has the number one card second opinion.

>> hey. >> download the app. >> prize picks. >> run your game. >> msnbc presents a new original podcast hosted by jen psaki. each week, she and her guests explore how the democratic party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next. the blueprint with jen psaki listen now. >> with the mar-a-lago classified documents case that jack smith had sought to bring against donald trump a thing of

the past firmly in the trash heap of history, and a president newly protected by sweeping immunity from the supreme court. what's stopping the fbi from releasing its still secret investigative records, having to do with donald trump's mishandling of national defense information? it's not a thought experiment. it's the subject of an actual order handed down by a federal judge this week. the bureau has for some time resisted sharing the secrets it collected in that particular case, including whether or not trump destroyed certain documents by flushing them down the toilet for fear of impacting potential prosecution. but again, judge says that fear is moot. he's not going to be prosecuted. and the memorandum opinion? the judge suggests the situation is ironic, the word of the day, and that dismissal of charges cleared trump of any criminal exposure, but made him more susceptible to public scrutiny. quote, with the fear dampened but the far dampened possibility of any criminal investigation to gather evidence about a president's conduct and

of any public enforcement proceeding against a president. the supreme court's decision has left a foia request as a critical tool for the american public to keep apprized of a president's conduct. we're back with harry, tim, molly and basil. mike donald trump inadvertently make foia great again. harry. >> yes, he might i you know, i want to note here we've had maybe half a dozen situations where he issues these unlawful orders and people sue him. this is the law used as a sword, and i'm not sure they actually anticipated it where they're going forward under foia. but it is part of, i think, a general thrust. you know, molly mentioned orwell in the last segment, and i think he really is the political philosopher of the day. one of the biggest risks of the trump administration is he will try literally to erase from the pages of history, really important information, not simply here, but there have been other instances as well. and i

really fear the day when there's going to be an attempt to get information, and we're just going to find out, oh, we just deleted all of those. sorry about that. and this kind of effort of foia, especially early to parry that is really important. it's of course critical for this very case. but i think it's a general theme to keep him from whitewashing the pages of history, which it's pretty clear he wants to do in many different settings. >> i mean, judge beryl howell writes for history as well. let me read this from the memorandum. of course, while the supreme court has provided a protective and presumptive immunity cloak for a president's conduct, that cloak is not so large to extend to those who aid, abet, and execute criminal acts on behalf of a criminally immune president. the excuse offered after world war two by enablers of the fascist nazi regime of just following orders, has long been rejected in this

country's jurisprudence. harry, that's a stunning thing to read. >> it really is. and she's absolutely correct. but i just want to say this is a smaller effort. just give us the information. it's got nothing to do with prosecuting him. it's got nothing to do with the other folks. it is true that people, i'm among them, who have avoided steadfastly analogies to nazi rule, find ourselves more and more invoking them. but the basic point of we as a democratic society have a right to this information, whether or not it's used to criminally prosecute him. that ought to be a bedrock principle. and we know it's one that trump will try to evade. so it's a really important general kind of lawsuit. and again, they're using it aggressively, not just as a shield. >> harry, why didn't merrick garland or joe biden or jack smith put it out before they left on the 20th? >> the argument at the time, nicole, and it was orthodox for

how these are treated, as there were two defendants still involved in the case, and that would have given a lot of information about a pending case. of course, they then went ahead and dismissed it. as to both de oliveira and now to and one wonders whether already maybe a couple people in congress had it as part of their oversight responsibilities. but that's the reason i and others were pushing for them to remove that obstacle so that they could put it out. but you can't put it out while they're a defendant still in the case. >> harry litman and tim miller, thank you both so much for the conversation. when we come back, we will get back to our top story. the new accusation that kash patel may be directing the firings at the fbi, despite testifying before congress to the opposite. senator dick durbin is calling for an investigation. he'll be our investigation. he'll be our guest choose advil liqui-gels for faster, stronger and longer-lasting relief than tylenol rapid release gels. because advil targets pain at the source of inflammation.

so for faster pain relief, advil the pain away. i'm thinking of updating my kitchen... ...thinking of redoing our kitchen. ...we are finally updating our kitchen. for all those people who never seem to get around to it... —...a breakfast nook. —chase has financial guidance. let's see how you can start saving... —really? —really? at home or in-person. that's guidance from chase. (man) got one more antoine. (vo) with usps ground advantage, it's like you're with us every step of the way. ♪ (man) cooool. ♪ (man) right on time! (vo) stay in the know. from your dock... to their door. my moderate to severe crohn's disease... ...and my ulcerative colitis symptoms... ...kept me... ...out of the picture. now... ...there's skyrizi. ♪i've got places to go...♪

♪...and i'm feeling free♪ ♪control of my symptoms means everything...♪ ♪...to me♪ ♪control is everything to me♪ and now... ...i'm back in the picture. feel significant symptom relief at... ...4 weeks with skyrizi. skyrizi is proven to help deliver remission... ...and help visibly improve damage.... ...of the intestinal lining at 12 weeks and 1 year. don't use if allergic. serious allergic reactions,... ...increased infections or lower ability to fight them may occur. before treatment, get checked for infections... ...and tb. tell your doctor about any... ...flu-like symptoms,or vaccines. liver problems leading to hospitalization... ...may occur when treated for crohn's or uc. ready to get... ...back in the picture? ask your... ...gastroenterologist how to take control of your crohn's... ...or uc with skyrizi. ♪control is everything to me♪ abbvie could help you save.

economy. perhaps they need to call it something else. >> for a. >> plant based healthy blood. pressure support. >> there's one brand. >> at walmart that stands above the rest. it's super beats. discover why more cardiologists recommend s dave's been very excited about saving big with the comcast business 5-year price lock guarantee. five years? -five years. and he's not alone. -high five. it's five years of reliable gig speed internet. five years of advanced securit. five years of a great rate that won't change. it's back. but only for a limited time. high five. five years? -nope. comcast business 5-year price lock guarantee. powering five years of savings. powering possibilities. comcast business.

prize picks app today. >> with code. >> tv to get $50. >> instantly in sight. >> credits. >> when you play your. >> first $5 lineup. >> as we reported at the top of the last hour, the highest ranking democrat on the senate judiciary committee is sounding the alarm today on the danger posed by donald trump's pick to lead the fbi, kash patel, ahead of a key senate vote to move kash patel's nomination to serve as fbi director forward, senator dick durbin is warning that patel, despite having no role in government, is orchestrating the firing of career fbi officials. in a letter to the inspector general of the justice department, senator durbin writes this quote, i have received highly credible

information from multiple sources that kash patel has been personally directing the ongoing purge of career civil servants at the federal bureau of investigation. although patel is president trump's nominee to be fbi director, he is still a private citizen with no role in government. this alleged misconduct is beyond the pale and must be investigated immediately. joining us now is democratic senator dick durbin of illinois. senator, thank you for being here. >> good to be with you. >> tell us what you can share about the allegations you've made in this letter against kash patel. >> well. >> i can tell you that kash patel, according to sources that i consider to be credible fbi agents who were present have reported to us that they were instructed by stephen miller, deputy to the president, that kash patel wanted them to move more quickly in purging agents and other employees of the department of justice. they wanted to have more activity at the fbi to match the activity at

the department of justice, and the source was kb kash patel. >> so just i i'm not trying to press you beyond what is comfortable or safe for your sources, but you said that they were fbi agents who heard this directive in the room. >> yes. >> yes they were. and they made notes that were read by others later that clearly identified what i've just described. >> what is your sense of the degree of alarm about what appears to be a glide path for kash patel's confirmation? >> i'm concerned about the fact that this man is aspiring to a ten year job as director of the fbi. we made it a ten year job to try to make sure that it wasn't political. the only political person at the fbi is the director, and we said ten years means that they'll transcend any single president in their tenure serving our country. i want to tell you, nicole, the bottom line here, the fbi agents that i've spoken

to have never seen anything like this in a presidential transition. it is destroying morale at the most important law enforcement investigative agency, perhaps in the world. and it's just inexcusable. these men and women did their jobs, and the fact that they would somehow be disclosed as january 6th involved is just an invitation for firing or an invitation for some sort of retribution against them or their families. this is not right. if we want to be safe as a nation, this agency has to continue to be a professional law enforcement agency. >> senator, have your sources. the fbi agents shared this account with republicans on the committee. >> i don't know the answer to that. they've contacted us. we've established a discussion and relationship with them. we trust what they have to say. they backed it up with information every time we've challenged them. i think they're credible sources for what's really going on at the fbi. >> what can you just recount for

us stephen miller's role in the planned or intended purge of the fbi? >> it's patel to miller. patel tells miller. contact the people at the fbi and tell them to pick up the pace of purging unacceptable people on a political basis. and so none of them contacts a man named beauvais, who was the acting attorney general, to execute the plan. that's the part that was disclosed to us, and that's what led to our contact with the inspector general. >> it's an explosive allegation. i mean, have you is there any comedy left in the senate where you could go to republicans on the committee and say, trump can have anyone he wants? trump could have tom cotton or john cornyn or. but but this guy is a bridge too far. or is that is that something that can still happen with senate republicans or. no. >> i haven't given up hope, but it's really difficult. time and again, the nominees who are unqualified for the job have skated through the united states

senate. one required the vote of the vice president, and most of the others get republican loyalty automatically. it's a shame, particularly when we're talking about a ten year job, a job that's going to be there beyond this president, a job that should be viewed as the most one of the most important keep us safe in america. >> it's been written about in a lot of books about the first trump term that bill barr spent a lot of his time in capital with donald trump protecting christopher wray. do you think that if christopher wray had refused to walk out and tie his tenure to the end of a president, which is precisely why the ten year term exists, so that an fbi director never leaves with an outgoing president? do you think any of this could have been avoided? >> i'm not sure, because i don't know who the masterminds are behind this maga presidency. it's pretty clear they're willing to go to lengths that we've never seen. unprecedented lengths in the history of the united states, and they're doing it at the expense of our security and safety. >> i never heard you this

alarmed about the inner workings of a government agency. and with your perch, i imagine you've seen a lot. what can people do? >> well, i can tell you they ought to reach out to their senators and congressmen if they feel that this is a situation that's unacceptable, and urge them to take a second look at kash patel, not to push him through automatically. in the committee on thursday or the following week on the floor. his nomination will be coming up next week if it clears the committee. and i hope that people across the country will reach out to members of the senate and urge them to vote no. >> when people malign your sources as anonymous smears, how would you defend the integrity of the person who shared this account with you? >> let's try to use common sense. if you knew this information and thought it was critically important to tell someone, would you do it? at the risk of being fired on the spot, which would happen, or at the risk of the safety of your family if you're publicly

disclosed? i mean, i can understand why these whistleblowers that have told us this information discreetly. it's a natural human reaction. >> you know a lot about the fbi workforce. and i remember a little bit from when i worked in government. is this a left leaning agency made up of left leaning individuals? >> no, i don't think so. i don't think anyone in politics would have said that credibly. historically, they've been viewed as either apolitical or leaning toward the conservative side, but they are seeing the destruction of the morale and the future of their own agency, and they are speaking up, at least through whistleblowers, from enough people, to be very credible. in my estimation. >> what risks did this person take in telling you about a meeting that had to be somewhat of a small circle? >> it's risky, no doubt about it. and we've done our best to protect the identity and the

course of pursuing this, but it took some courage for them to even come forward as a whistleblower. >> did mr. horowitz respond to your letter? >> not yet. i hope soon he. >> you must know, is the only inspector general donald trump didn't fire in his friday night massacre. does that give you hope or doubt that he'll pursue the allegations of your fbi agent source? >> well, not to reflect on any other inspector general, but he is a credible person. i've worked with him and gone through a lot of hearings. he's a professional. and i believe a patriotic person who wants to do the best thing for the country. the fact that they didn't remove him as a mystery to me. >> senator dick durbin, thank you for your time and for talking to us. >> thanks, nicole. >> we'll bring our panel back on this after a very short break. stay with us. >> we do have major developments out of washington. have we already sort of crossed a

rubicon in terms of who we are as a country and what the rule of law is? america is listening to you right now, thinking about what might have been. people hearing you, talking about the pushback and the fight and that mattering. what does that mean in practical terms? what they're doing to immigrants is something they say they're going to do every day. what's democratic strategy for trying to take that on? we've got a free press, a on? we've got a free press, a free people and an organiz when i started walton goggins goggle glasses, i had no idea what i was doing. but godaddy airo does. using ai to build a logo, website and social content. so i can let the world know, if your goggles ain't goggins, they don't belong on your noggins! tap into etsy if your goggles ain't goggins, for original and affordable home and style pieces like like lighting under 150 dollars to brighten your vibe. for under 100 dollars, put your best look forward with vintage jackets. or pick up custom shelving for under 50 to make space without emptying your pockets. and get cozy with linen robes for 75 or less.

for affordable home and style finds to help you welcome whatever's next, etsy has it. >> magnesium glycinate. it's formulated for high absorption and is gentle on the stomach. kuehnle the brand i trust. this is the emirates premium economy is the emirates premium economy seat. economy. my mom used to tell me if you want to be a champion you got to be a champion at life. i got to watch her play at her highest from when i was born. from one generation to the next, to the next, we don't stop. i always wanted to know why i'm the way i am. my curiosity led me to ancestry. it breaks down like everything genetically. what that means.

that's amazing. — right. it all comes full circle. (♪♪) the highlight of the day is mahomes getting the new iphone 16 at t-mobile. it's built for apple intelligence. hustle down to t-mobile like a dog chasing a squirrel... chasing a nut! at t-mobile get iphone 16 on us. your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. our advanced matching helps find talented candidates, so you can connect with them fast. visit indeed.com/hire when you smell the amazing scent of gain flings... time stops. (♪♪) and you realize you're in love... steve? with a laundry detergent. (♪♪) gain flings. seriously good scent. okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals,

nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪) (vo) what happens when one of the most famous dunkers of all time goes to the greatest lobsterfest of all time? with 30 grams of protein. (blake griffin) i make red lobster famous. (vo) no blake, dunking happens. (blake griffin) yeah, you're right. (vo) create your own lobster lover's dream with 2 or 3 choices on one plate. at red lobster. zone, there's an fbi agent who looked around at everything. i mean, it sort of proves what they're made of. looked around at everything going on, knows right from wrong, and reached out to the senate ranking member of the judiciary committee and told an unbelievable account. >> yeah, to a democrat. and i think you had a really good point. this is a group, you know, the head of the fbi, almost always a republican. >> always a. >> republican, always a republican. it's a very republican organization, or at least conservative. and i think

that he reached that he or she reached out to a democrat says a lot. and i also think, you know, look, they they have you you have collins and murkowski who have voted against nominees. you have mitch mcconnell, who has voted against nominees. you just need one more. and, you know, it seems it's it doesn't happen until it happens, right? >> yeah. i mean, the i hate to argue on behalf of trump's political interests, but it is in trump's political interests for the fbi to be a badass law enforcement agency. and there's no evidence that when you purge 3000 people or you or you take a questionnaire about what their casework has been, that that's how you turn the fbi into a crime fighting machine. >> you know, and just to stitch together some things that we've been talking about at the table, that's why this moment, there are a lot of fields to this, a lot of things. but one of the really the takeaways for me is that there are a lot of voters that feel vulnerable. they feel

exposed. right. and it's the stripping of the fbi. it's the stripping of those guardrails that we had been talking about that voters just feel exposed, and they want something that gives them that kind of protection against the, you know, against the donald trump and the kash patel and the elon musks of the world. and, you know, to senator durbin's point and to an earlier point, if it's a foia request that folks need to flood the zone with to get information about some of these conversations, if, god willing, some of them are on paper or in an email, we can get that. so what are the things that ordinary citizens can arm themselves with? it used to be the purview of good government groups to do all of that. but we are now the good government group, right. >> it's so interesting. so the other thing is the presidency has never been more powerful with the addition of absolute immunity. right. and just about i mean, i had andrew natsios on republican, far right, conservative republican who turned usaid away from the clinton era agenda into the

bushes. and he told me a month. i mean, these are not agencies staffed with rebellious partizans. they're staff with experts who will turn the government in whatever direction you want. and what i wonder? the other thing with auditing is it's very politically popular to eliminate waste, right? democrats and republicans used to always run on will eliminate waste. right? elon musk is not going in to eliminate waste. or he would have brought auditors. right. he went in with coders. >> right. >> why. >> right. right. no, it's a really good question. and i also think look durban had a really good point too about people having power. you can call your senators, you can call your congresspeople. they respond to pressure even trump world. we've seen them respond to pressure respond to pushback. maga is not you know, all of america. it's a very small slice of america. and the american people, you know, largely are in the middle. and they want normalcy. and that's what we're talking about. >> i mean, they want they want people will always vote for someone who's tough on crime,

right? and for some reason, the democrats who brought crime levels, chris wray, trump's hand-picked replacement for jim comey and the biden administration, brought crime levels down. trump won anyway. despite that, that actual fact. but what he's doing could send it the other direction. how is that message communicated? >> well, you know, it's well, it's interesting because when you look at the people who are in charge, there's just no faith and confidence that they're actually going to keep you safe. and, i mean, i think you just have to really keep hammering that home. the one thing you don't want to do is wait for crime to go up. and then you say, i told you so, right? but you have to consistently look at the folks that are involved and saying, where do these folks, these folks live, where i live? do they do the things that i do? are they going to protect my grandmother on the street when she goes shopping? right. these are the things that, you know, democrats need to consistently point out. these are not folks that keep us safe. elon musk can go anywhere in the world and spend any amount of money he wants in the world, and pay off

anyone he wants to in the world. do we have the same agency to be able to protect ourselves and our family? and i think more and more, i think democrats writ large believe that. but more and more trump voters are going to have to start believing that he is stripping away their agency also. >> yeah, it's so interesting. you guys made me think. molly jong-fast basil smikle. thank you. quick break for us. we'll be right back. >> as a cardiologist, when i put my patients. >> on a statin to reduce cholesterol. >> i also tell them it. >> can deplete. >> their coq10 levels. i recommend. >> taking qanon coq10. >> schnoll has three. >> schnoll has three. >> times better. baby: liberty! mom: liberty mutual is all she talks about since we saved hundreds by bundling our home and auto insurance. biberty: it's pronounced "biberty." baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: nice try, kid. only pay for what you need ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: liberty. if you have heart failure or chronic kidney disease, farxiga can help you keep living life, because there are places you'd like to be. (♪♪) serious side effects include increased ketones in blood or urine

and bacterial infection between the anus and genitals, both which may be fatal, severe allergic reactions, dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. stop taking and tell your doctor right away if you have nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, tiredness, rash, swelling, trouble breathing or swallowing. tell your doctor about lightheadedness, weakness, fever, pain, tenderness, redness or swelling between the anus and genitals. ask your doctor about farxiga today. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ (♪♪) you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean. not spreadsheets... you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. our matching platform lets you spend less time searching and more time connecting with candidates. visit indeed.com/hire the promise of this nation should extend to all from new york to new mexico, from alaska to alabama. but right now, people like you are losing their freedoms.

some in power are suppressing voting rights. banning our kids books from libraries and attacking our right to make private health care decisions. we must act now to defend these freedoms and protect our democracy. and we can't do it without you. we are the american civil liberties union, and we're asking you to join us in protecting our democracy at the national level and in communities like yours. call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. your gift of just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day will help ensure that together we can continue to fight for the freedoms of all americans, no matter your zip code. if you also believe in the right to vote, the right to free speech, the right to learn, the right to bodily autonomy. please join us now. these are your fundamental rights that people are playing with. and so you need to get involved,

because if you don't, then someone else is going to decide whether or not you get to choose what happens to your own body. so please call or go to myaclu.org and become an aclu guardian of liberty for just $19 a month. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and more to show you're part of a movement to protect the rights of all people. we can't make systemic change in the way that we want to doing it by ourselves. we have to work together because we the people, means all of us. from sea to shining sea. so please call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. >> some good news to bring you. mark vogel, a teacher who was arrested on charges of bringing medical marijuana into russia in

2021, has been released by the kremlin. fogel's release was part of a deal negotiated by donald trump's special envoy to the middle east, steve witkoff. fogel has been flown out of the country on witkoff plane with the u.s. envoy for hostages posting this photo. last hour, president trump announced he will greet fogel tonight at the white house at 10 p.m. fogel is a history teacher from pennsylvania. he was serving a 14 year sentence and had been designated as wrongfully detained by the u.s. last year. wyckoff's trip to moscow was the first known trip by a senior u.s. official since november of 2021, before russia's invasion of ukraine. it is unclear what russia is getting in return, but when asked, trump told reporters, quote, not much. and he went on to say this. no, no, they were very nice. we were treated very nicely by russia, actually. i hope that's the beginning of a relationship where we can end that war and millions of people can stop millions of people can stop being killed, end quote.

life with afib can mean a lifetime of blood thinners. and if you're troubled by falls and bleeds, worry follows you everywhere. ♪♪ over half a million people have left blood thinners behind. with watchman. ♪♪ watchman is a safe, minimally invasive, one-time implant that reduces stroke risk and bleeding worry. for life. ♪♪ watchman. it's one time, for a lifetime. zyrtec allergy relief works fast and lasts a full 24 hours so dave can be the... deliverer of dance. ok, dave! let's be more than our allergies. zeize the day with zyrtec. economy.

your shipping manager left to "find themself." leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. sponsored jobs on indeed are two and a half times faster to first hire. visit indeed.com/hire super beats. discover why more cardiologists recommend super cardiologists recommend super beats for heart (♪♪) hi neighbor! you switched to t-mobile home internet yet? trim your hedge. it's $35 bucks a month with no price hikes! bam! it runs on t-mobile's wireless 5g network, so all you gotta do is plug in one cord! t-mobile 5g home internet. just $35 bucks a month. and with price lock, we won't raise your rate on internet. i did it! aaahh!! i switched to t-mobile home internet, and i am loving it! don't sneak up on me like that. (♪♪)

gives you the opportunity to win groceries for life? imagine never paying for groceries again. well, what if i can't decide? avocados or tomatoes? why choose? at grocery outlet, you can afford both. and not just the basics. with grocery outlet, you'll find all your favorite brands included. including gluten free pasta and my favorite cookies? um, huh, everything's included. so burgers and steaks for life?! you gotta win first. still worth it. now that's bargain bliss. ♪ grocery outlet bargain market

week. >> now is the time, so we're going to do it. settle in. >> the rachel maddow show weeknights at 9:00 on msnbc. >> what we do. >> is try to. >> cut right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington that day. thank you so much for letting us into your homes. we're so grateful. the beat with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicole. >> thanks so much. welcome to the beat. i'm ari melber. tonight we have chris hayes. in this hour. different hour than usual. he'll be here and we're excited for that. so i encourage you to stay tuned. we also have a special insider view on the debate over funding cuts, what's really happening and where do we go from here. but we start with the continued legal losing streak for donald trump. he's been in office 22 days, and his administration is racking up historic court losses. yesterday,