>> how is this playing internally, not only with donald trump, but also with people, you know, around him who sort of see what might be happening here. but, look, i mean, there. hasn't been a lot of explicit reporting or any indication that this, in fact, is fraying in real time. >> musk keeps. >> showing up every day. he seems extremely central to what's going on, you know, until we see otherwise. that seems. >> to. >> be the working dynamic for at this point. >> absolutely central to what's going on. staff writer at the atlantic, mark leibovich, who was willing to brave greenland. but i will overlook it because it is snowy and slushy outside. we will see you again on morning joe in just a little bit. that was way too early for wednesday morning, and morning joe kicks off right now. >> jaylen, you. >> scored three touchdowns. >> on sunday. >> you did by the. >> first one was. >> doing what. >> people. >> are calling the tush push. >> yeah. >> is that what you call it. >> it's not what i call it. >> it's not what you. >> call it.

>> no what i call it. >> what do you call it? >> you know, i'm not going to say what i called it, but it's. >> okay. >> but it's not. i was. >> shocked too, because when i got there, i known that the tush push, but i didn't know if that was what would be called. but i thought it was called that. and it's not called a tush. tush? actually, no. >> what is your. >> role in the in the. quote unquote tush push? >> i think i have the easiest job, to be honest. i think i'm the one who pushes the tush. >> there you go. philadelphia eagles star. saquon barkley and jalen hurts last night on the tonight show jimmy fallon fresh off their super bowl victory in philadelphia. still celebrating, still reeling i suspect that will last for a while. >> they don't they don't. >> take things half way. sports fans. >> in. >> the city not not in philadelphia no doubt about it. good morning. welcome to morning joe. it's wednesday february 12th with us. we have co host of our fourth hour and contributing writer at the atlantic jonathan lemire member of the new york times editorial board mara gay, president emeritus of the council on foreign relations

richard haass, columnist and associate editor for the washington post. david ignatius, the host of way too early ali vitali and nbc news national affairs analyst and a partner and chief columnist at pwc, john heilemann. so a lot of lot of news yesterday, some of it good, some of it good, some of it good. >> some of it good. >> let's start there. >> anytime an. >> american returns. >> home, american who was. >> wrongfully imprisoned returns home. >> that is good news. and that's where we're going. >> to start this morning. before we get to. >> the less good news that american. >> who was. >> wrongfully detained in russia now back on u.s. >> soil, a. >> man named marc. >> fogel. >> he was. >> released yesterday. >> in a deal. >> brokered by president. >> trump's special. >> envoy. >> the 63 year old. >> teacher from. >> pennsylvania was held captive for more than three years. >> he was. >> arrested in moscow. >> back in 2021. >> for traveling with. >> 17g of medical cannabis. >> fogel was. >> found guilty a year later. >> for supposedly. >> engaging in. >> what. >> was deemed.

>> large scale. >> drug smuggling. >> he was. >> sentenced to 14 years. >> at a labor camp. >> last night. >> president trump. >> welcomed fogel. >> to the white house. >> fogel thanked the. >> president for. >> securing his release. >> meanwhile. >> trump did not. >> talk about the terms of the deal that led to fogel's freedom, but suggested this could help. >> to end. >> the war in ukraine. >> i love that i was given. sustain sustain me. >> for three. >> and a half years in a prison that had me in hospitals for more than 100 days. i was given more than 400 injections in that time, and knowing i had the support of my fellow pennsylvanians, my family, my friends, it was. so overwhelming that. it brought me to my knees

and it brought me to tears. but it was it was my energy. it was my being that that. >> kept me going that. >> whole time. >> and i. will forever. >> be indebted. >> president trump, did. >> you speak directly to president putin about? >> well, i don't want to say that. i just want to say that i appreciate very much what they did and letting marc go home. >> what were the. >> terms of. >> this. >> deal, mr. president? >> very fair. very, very fair, very reasonable, not like deals you've seen over the years. they were very fair. i think this could be the very important element. you could be a big part of it actually, because it could be a big, important part of getting the war over with ukraine. and we appreciate president putin's what he what he did. he was able to pull it

off for you, right. he was able to pull it off, we think. and you're here. so it was great. we'll tell you a little bit more about it tomorrow. but i think we've made great progress. progress on the war. also getting the war i want to get the war ended. >> the president also announced that another. >> american will release. >> today, but. did not say. >> who or from where. >> some reporting this. >> morning that there would russians. >> would be receiving some exchange. >> some sort of. >> prisoner swap, but also unconfirmed too. but always. >> a good. >> to see someone home like that. >> western pennsylvania. >> marc fogel came home. >> wearing a steelers cap. >> as he. >> kissed the ground at. >> joint base. >> andrews and holding in his hand an iron city beer, which. >> is a beer. >> right there. in pittsburgh. >> there you go. so. >> so, richard. >> what are the what are. >> the some some of the ramifications of this? the president talked about the possibility of ending the war in ukraine. obviously, they're talking what's the latest that you're hearing? >> a couple of things. it shows,

you know, this president, like many of his predecessors, joe, great believer in personal diplomacy. they could also signals that this administration will see putin a little bit less as a pariah, somebody more you can, quote unquote. to do business with j.d. vance. the vice president is going to the munich security conference this week. we'll be meeting with president zelensky. i think what you're going to see is the pace of diplomacy towards ukraine picking up. ukraine is increasingly on board the idea of some type of a cease fire roughly in place. a lot. of detailed talk about european security measures that would help ukraine, potentially even boots on the ground from poland and other countries. and i think what's happening then is the administration is pivoting to say, look, we've got ukraine willing to accept some version of a cease fire in place. what do you, vladimir putin, willing to do? so i don't see. >> this as directly. >> involved, but indirectly. i think what you're now seeing is the american-russian negotiation essentially beginning. >> right. >> they're talking. >> david ignatius and obviously the devastation on both sides,

obviously a little more obvious to ukraine because it's. it is a smaller country than russia. but this war has just been so devastating on russia. it continues to be devastating. the drone warfare continues to exact terrible, terrible casualties on on russians. are we getting closer from from what you saw yesterday, from what you're reporting on, are we getting closer, at least to peace. >> talks. >> if not an actual peace deal or an actual cease fire? >> well, president trump. >> says. >> that we are says that we're moving forward. my concern is that all of this action is happening over the. heads of the ukrainians. >> and the. >> big danger here. >> has. >> always been that. >> president trump would come in and do. >> a. deal with. >> his friend, president. putin of russia. >> and then impose that on the. >> ukrainians who suffered so. so brutally. >> in trying to repel.

>> the. >> invasion by putin of. >> their country. >> three years ago. >> so that continues. >> to be to be a. >> worry. >> always a. >> joyous to. >> see a. >> hostage released. >> but this was. >> a, in a sense, a transactional move. >> by russia to begin the next phase. >> of negotiations. >> and russia. >> will. >> expect something. >> from president. >> trump to. what it's done in releasing foley. >> meanwhile, president trump remains optimistic he can carry out his plan of taking over gaza. still, the king of jordan appeared skeptical yesterday. the two leaders, of course, met at the white house. the president wants jordan to permanently take in some of the more than 2 million palestinians currently living in gaza, while the u.s. redevelops the enclave. the king of jordan is, of course, against that idea. he told the president he's willing to take in 2000 palestinian children who are very sick. that idea was well received by president trump. but then later in the day, the king posted on social media that he only supports a two state solution, saying, quote, i reiterated

jordan's steadfast position against the displacement of palestinians in gaza and the west bank. still, the president told reporters he thinks his plan can be achieved, especially if egypt helps out. but egypt has also voiced its opposition to resettling palestinians. >> with egypt. i think you're going to see some great progress. i think with jordan, you're going to see some great progress, three of us, and we'll have some others helping, and we're going to have some others at a very high level helping, and the whole thing will come. it's not a complex thing to do. and with the united states being in control of that piece of land, a fairly large piece of land, you're going to have stability in the middle east for the first time, and the palestinians, or the people that live now in gaza, will be living beautifully in another location. they're going to be living safely. they're not going to be killed, murdered and having to leave every ten years. because i've been watching this for so many years, it's nothing but trouble, david.

>> this conversation that the president is having on the world stage in full view of this outside of the box that's been trampled on, the box idea of redeveloping gaza, it's happening against the backdrop of an already tenuous cease fire agreement, where trump and now netanyahu are saying, if hamas does not release all of the rest of the hostages by saturday at noon, all hell will break loose. can you talk about these various pieces and how they all really do funnel through the same thread? >> so i think you put. >> it just right. >> the middle east. >> crisis that. >> surrounded this war. that's been. >> going on for 15 months was. >> finally beginning to ease when president. >> trump arrived. >> with the. >> startling new proposal that. >> the united states. >> would take over. >> gaza and expel. >> the palestinians. >> forcibly relocate them to. other countries, primarily egypt and jordan. and we've been watching the aftermath. of that ever since. it was excruciating yesterday to see king abdullah of jordan visiting president trump, trying. very hard not to

disagree with him in public about a proposal. >> that could have. >> the effect of destabilizing the jordanian monarchy. >> to the. >> point. >> that it. >> really can't survive. >> this is this. >> is really a deadly threat to jordan. jordan's stability matters most of all to its neighbor, israel, an unstable jordan where you have a palestinian population in a revolt is the last thing that that israel needs. >> but these. >> are now, because. >> of president. trump's initiative. >> new facts that people are going to have to deal with. king abdullah. >> of jordan's. >> approach was to try to delay this. >> he said. mr. president. >> i need to talk. >> to. >> the egyptians and the saudis. we need some time to think about this. and as you saw from the clips, trump wants to go now. he keeps. >> repeating his phrases. >> to me to describe the forcible relocation of a population. >> as a. >> very beautiful thing, you know, as if as if you're talking about putting people on a cruise

ship. that that really troubles me. >> so, richard, let's just if you're looking at the scorecard here, jordan's against this. the saudis are against this, egypt's against this. the emiratis are against this. i and there's no way the american people are going to want to send troops and send money into gaza to try to rebuild gaza, for whatever purposes. president trump says he wants to rebuild it. so i just again, it seems the world is against this. and even republican lawmakers are saying, wait, what? no we're not. we're this america. first thing is not about getting entangled in another middle east war. so what's the end game here for president trump? >> well, this is not going to happen. the danger is that the president keeps pushing it. you won't resolve the palestinian

issue. >> but as david was suggesting. >> any theories, best theories on why he is pushing this right now. >> no. >> but this is you know. >> these are ideas that have come out of the right in israel, that they want to do this in gaza, in part as a precedent for the west bank settler movement, the annexationists and so forth. what i think is interesting here, though, joe, let me give you a slightly different thing. presidents put this out again. i think it's a nonstarter. president george king, king jordan didn't want to say this is a terrible idea in front of him. he kind of managed the situation awkwardly, but somewhat deftly. so what's going to happen, i think, is the arabs are going to come together and say we, you know, they'll they'll do like jordan will take in 2000 sick kids or something. >> i think. >> what's going to happen, though, is if they're smart, they would put forth a radical, a radical proposal saying, we we're in favor of rebuilding gaza with the people there. but here's what israel needs to do. what they should do. and i think what they will do is basically say, we need a day after what this israeli government has refused to talk about as a

palestinian led rebuilding of gaza with an arab stabilization force, with arab money. my hunch is they will put that forward, and then this president's going to have to decide, will he put pressure on bibi netanyahu to come up with an approach to gaza, to support an approach to gaza, that the arab countries and the palestinians are all willing to sign on to? that's where i think this is heading. >> mara, you talk to any arab leader, you talk to any arab diplomat, and they will say, we're not backing off of a two state solution. it seems to me the abraham accords, which did many wonderful things, went it went in a good direction. but the one, the one failure of it was they thought they could make peace in the middle east by pushing the palestinians off to the side. we learned on october 7th that doesn't work. and it appears that there's sort of the same mindset. the palestinians are just sort of extras in this, in this, in this play. we're

going to just push them off to the side and everything will be wonderful. that's that's ignoring three, 4000 years of history. >> well, i'm so glad. >> that it's a great. transition to the point i wanted to make. >> which is that we. >> may not be talking enough. >> about how. >> old these. >> ideas are. >> that donald trump is pushing the language that he is using is just old imperialistic adventure. language harkens. >> back. >> to a time where empires around the world. >> would take out. >> a map and draw on it, ignoring the. >> history and the. >> people who lived. on the land. this took. place all across africa. >> the scramble for africa. this took. >> place all. >> across south. >> america after. >> world war one. after after world. >> that's where. >> world war one was actually. >> fought over this. >> exact issue. so i think to. >> your point. >> joe, you know. >> this is very. >> classic anti-democratic. behavior from donald. >> trump because.

>> the values. >> that underlie diplomacy and. democracy in our. >> modern world. >> are. >> self-determination of every people and. the palestinians. to deserve self-determination. >> that is the basis. >> for the two. >> state solution. >> and i think when we. >> ignore that. >> well. >> there will never be peace. >> and it would be. really the equivalent. >> of saying. >> to americans, you know what, you speak. >> english. >> just go. >> to. >> canada, right? >> you have. >> no. >> claim to. >> be american. despite the fact that we are deeply american. >> the palestinians. >> also have a history. >> on this land. and. >> you know, i. >> just think. >> it's sad. but politically, to. your initial question. >> you just have. >> to wonder if this. >> is just all about. >> a distraction. for the american people as well. >> for donald trump. >> that's why i keep asking what this is all about. because, jonathan, this is the president

has to know this is not going to happen first of all. secondly, it runs counter to everything he campaigned on. it runs counter to everything that his base supports. you know, we've we've talked about the divide between, let's say, the steve bannon wing of maga and the elon musk wing of maga. and we saw that played out in in full form. but man, i would think almost all of sort of the maga base would be against wars in greenland, wars and panama wars and gaza, especially gaza. so much i think of sort of the counter conservative movement in the republican party. i'm talking traditional conservative movement came because of the war in iraq. i think that was a defining moment in what i saw as a rejection of the bush wing of the republican party, the cheney

wing of the republican party. and so this is this is doubling, tripling, quadrupling down things that dick cheney would have never suggested. and when i say that, i'm saying the dick cheney and the george w bush that again, you know, conservative republicans with a small c would say ran a wilsonian sort of foreign policy where they were going to wave a magic wand, reshape how america looked. and, of course, that's what led us to iraq. that's what led us to vietnam. and that's what led to an america first republican party. >> yeah. and to your. >> point, it's been. >> overshadowed by so much which. >> has come afterwards. >> but i remember being there night after. >> night during the. >> 2016 campaign at these rallies, when. >> trump would. >> rail against. >> the. >> forever wars of. >> iraq and afghanistan. >> and that was an. >> extraordinarily popular thing. >> among the people he was winning. >> over to his side. >> they did. >> not want that. they wanted.

>> to bring american troops home. >> and he and his fellow republicans conditioned them. also to. >> try to. >> pull. back from supporting ukraine. >> and now. >> to suddenly go completely. >> the. >> other direction. >> you know, he's they've. >> now ruled out. >> the idea of u.s. >> troops on. >> the. >> ground in gaza. >> but still floating, though one. >> wonders how they'd control. >> it without that. >> you know, but to continue to say. >> to double down and triple down. >> now of us control. >> in gaza, when it is. >> clear that no arab neighbor would be for this, they're. >> insisting on. >> a two. >> state solution. >> and trump and at least the israeli. >> government right now. >> not embracing that. >> have we had. >> a clarification? >> i asked earlier this week when president trump said, i'm going to take it over and develop it. it's going to be beautiful. development. have we had any clarification from the white house, whether that i meant the united states or donald trump personally? i know the white house. i know white house officials were asked that and brush it off. have we gotten any clarity? >> it's still very. >> it's still. mixed signals, the belief it would be the government. but perhaps trump. org would have a role. >> here as well. >> we know. >> that members. >> of trump's family. >> have previously. suggested that gaza would be such good.

>> beachfront property. >> to develop. >> we will. >> see what happens. >> but the white. >> house. had sort of. >> last couple days. >> been backing away. >> from this. >> idea until trump grabbed. >> it by. >> the. collar again. >> yesterday and said, no, this. >> is what we're going. >> to do. >> you almost sense and again, i have no reporting on this at all. but the only thing that makes any strategic sense is he's doing netanyahu's bidding. he's doing the bidding of the right wing parties, who netanyahu may be in trouble with because of this cease fire deal. that's the only thing that makes sense that he because he's channeling, he's channeling the far right and israel right now who do not believe that the palestinians have any right to the west bank or gaza. >> and what this you know, we've been focused for the last 15 months for good reason on gaza. i will bet you before this year is. >> over, the focus shifts to. >> the west bank. it is becoming more and more of a conflict zone. the dynamic between the

500,000 israeli settlers and the 3 million palestinians is getting more and more violent before this year is over. that could become the new center of middle eastern friction. >> what's been happening there over the past year or so has just been heinous. it's just been heinous. and, you know, we used to talk about an illegal settlement here and a legal settlement there. just the most extreme right wing settlers have just been set loose on the west bank. >> and getting worse. >> and no one happier by trump's proposal. then prime minister. >> netanyahu will return. >> to this. >> later in. >> the show. but next up here on morning joe, president trump also giving. the department of government. >> efficiency even more power. >> d.o.j. will break down the. >> executive order trump. >> signed and. >> what it. >> could mean. >> for elon musk. >> plus, we'll play for you some. >> of the tech billionaires comments. >> about his. >> role in. >> the trump administration, amid. >> concerns there. may be significant. conflicts of interest. >> you're watching morning joe. >> we're back in 90s.

>> we're not going to buy anything. we're going to have it and we're going to keep it, and we're going to make sure that there's going to be peace, and there's not going to be any problem, and nobody's going to question it. and we're going to run it very properly. and eventually we'll have economic development at a very large scale, maybe the largest scale on that site. we're going to we're going to have gaza. we don't have to buy. there's nothing to buy. we will have gaza. what does that mean? no reason to buy. there is nothing to buy. it's gaza. it's a it's a war torn area. we're going to take it. we're going to hold it. we're going to cherish it. >> my orange. >> crush me! come color me. >> got my spine. i've got my. >> orange crush. >> i. >> can serve. >> i was drowning. >> in debt. >> i had over $36,000. >> in debt. >> if i would have just made the. >> minimum payments, it.

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>> our most capable jeep wrangler ever, or battle the elements and win in the jeep gladiator, hurry into the jeep president's day sales event before these incredible offers slip away. during the jeep president's day sales event, get 10% below msrp for an average of $5,700 under msrp on these 2024 jeep wrangler models. see your local jeep brand dealer today. >> president trump signed an executive order yesterday giving elon musk's department of government efficiency more power, according to a fact sheet provided by the white house. the orders direct agency heads across government to work with doge to take multiple steps to cut the size of. >> the. federal workforce. >> those steps include only hiring employees for every four that leave one employee, one employee establishing new criteria for hiring. giving a doge team led hiring approval over new career appointment hires and preparing the agency

for large scale reductions in the workforce. by figuring out which components or agencies themselves may be eliminated or combined. meanwhile, musk answered questions from the media yesterday for the first time about the work of the doge team. musk stood next to president trump at the resolute desk, trying to defend the work that his staffers have done, which has been criticized for operating with unchecked power. musk railed against bureaucracy, calling it unelected, forth, unconstitutional branch of government. he was also pressed multiple times on his conflicts of interest connected to the massive government contracts his companies receive. >> at a. >> high level. >> you say, what is the goal. of doge or. >> and i think a significant part of this presidency is to restore democracy. this may seem seem like, well, are we in a democracy rule of the bureaucrat. >> or if the bureaucracy is in charge? >> and then what meaning does

democracy actually have? if the people cannot vote and have their will be decided by their elected. representatives in the form of the president and the senate and the house, then. >> we don't. >> live in a democracy. we live. in a bureaucracy. >> but if there is a. >> conflict of interest when it comes to you yourself, for instance, you've received billions of dollars in federal contracts when it comes to the pentagon. >> for instance. >> which the president, i know has directed you to look into. >> are you policing. >> yourself in that? is there. >> any sort of accountability check and balance in place that would provide any transparency for the american people? >> well, all of our actions. >> are are. >> fully public. so if you see anything you say like, wait a second. >> hey, you. >> know, that doesn't that seems. like maybe that's, you know, there's. >> a conflict there i don't like. >> people are going to be shy. >> about saying that. they'll say it immediately. >> mr. musk, you said on x that an example of the fraud that you have cited was $50 million of condoms was sent to gaza. but

after fact, check this is apparently gaza in mozambique, and the program was to protect them against hiv. so can you correct the statements? it wasn't sent to hamas, actually, it was sent to mozambique, which makes sense why condoms was sent there. and how can we make sure that all the statements that you said were correct so we can trust what you're saying? >> well, first of all, some of the things that i say will be incorrect and should be corrected. so nobody's going to bat a thousand. i mean, any, you know, we. >> will make mistakes, but we'll act. >> quickly to correct any mistakes. so, you know. if the i'm not sure we should be sending. >> $50 million. >> worth of condoms to anywhere. frankly. i think that there are some worthy things, but but overall, if you say. >> what is the bang for the buck? i would say it was not very good. >> and there. was far too much of what you said i was doing was influencing, influencing elections in ways that i think were dubious and do not stand.

>> the light of day. >> elon musk gave one example of a possible reform to the bureaucratic process. he explained how antiquated record keeping in a limestone mine is preventing government workers from retiring. >> this is actually. >> i think, a great anecdote, because. >> we're told that the most number of people that could retire, possibly in a month is 10,000. we're like, well, why? why is that? >> well. because all. the all the retirement paperwork is manual. on paper. it's manually calculated then written down on a piece of paper, then. it goes down a mine. and we're like, what do you mean a mine? >> like. >> yeah, there's a limestone mine where we store all. the retirement paperwork. >> that and you look a picture at. >> a. >> picture of. >> this mine. we'll post some pictures afterwards. and this. >> this. >> mine looks like something out of the 50s because it was started in 1955. >> so it looks like it's like a time. >> warp. and then the speed, then the limiting factor is the. >> speed at which the mine shaft elevator can move.

>> determines how. >> many people can retire from. >> the federal federal government. >> and the elevator breaks down sometimes. and then. >> you can't. nobody can retire. >> so the mine musk was describing is a real thing. david fahrenthold of the washington post covered it back in 2014, calling it the, quote, sinkhole of bureaucracy. so david ignatius, first of all, my chief complaint since doge began has been the lack of transparency. i do think it's good that elon musk went before reporters and answered questions. that's number one. number two, let's just admit a few things here before we talk about conflicts of interest. for people that are watching at home going, well, why are they doing this? how could they do this? how could the american people go along with this? most americans, a majority of americans, think that the government is inefficient. most presidents,

from ronald reagan to bill clinton, think that the bureaucracy is inefficient and antiquated, and they've tried to update it. and, you know, al gore famously going on david letterman to try to show his examples. i remember at one point, the reagan administration, somebody saying to the washington post, you know, why did we even come here? you can't you can't do anything. you can't update anything. so this is something that that we've heard administrations complain about for 40 years. the biggest concern, of course, has been one, whether they were doing it in a constitutional, lawful manner. and two, the lack of transparency. i'm curious what you saw yesterday in this press conference by elon musk, and we will get to the conflicts of interest, which obviously is a is a glaring red light there. but but on these other issues, what what were your thoughts about the press conference? >> so the scene itself. >> was bizarre.

>> you had musk and his maga hat dressed all in black, a long coat that looked almost like a cape with his young son, x climbing all over him, climbing on the floor, president trump often looking uncomfortable at the scene. so the scene itself was bizarre. the point you make that there is a fundamental problem here of a federal government bureaucracy that is too bureaucratic, too big, ill managed. every american has experience of that, and the idea of trying to make the government more efficient, reduce the level of spending, improve the technology. that's one of the worst things about how the federal government works. it works off of antiquated computers. that's an idea that people can support, but work a country of laws. you can't just do things by edict. this is a problem that, as you said, al

gore and so many other people tried hard to address. but you have to do it carefully because it's a pain in the neck. you'd love to just smash through. but but we're a country of laws. that's the way we were designed. and i think that's the part of the musk rush to, to change everything in sight. that's most worrying, it seems to be to be being conducted without regard for our legal procedures. we're going to have some big court tests coming up in the coming weeks that are going to be decisive in showing what are the limits of what trump is trying to do. but should there should there be efforts to reform the federal government make it more efficient? absolutely no question about it. >> absolutely. and if you talk, i mean, there's some we interviewed secretary of defense a few years ago talking about computers in the 1980s. so again, in theory, this would be wonderful. in theory, this is wonderful. whether you're talking about the pentagon, whether you're talking about the

va, whether you're talking about social security, anybody that has tried to deal with the irs and how antiquated and i may say to for republicans understaffed, all these agencies are, they're not going to tackle the $36 trillion debt by doing all the things they want to do and cutting some employees here and there. so, yeah, this is this is, i think, a concept that many americans would support a lot of independents would support that. the question, though, is though, is it being done legally? is it being done constitutionally? and is it being done transparently? i think elon musk getting before reporters, i actually think as much as possible since his people are running through these government agencies. i think that is that is extraordinarily important. and it's also, of course, most important that the letter of the law is followed, that the constitution is followed, that actually congress cares about its article one

powers. and interesting, interesting. yesterday, the response to the court cases. we didn't get the sort of response that we heard from jd vance and mike lee this weekend. you had president trump saying he was disappointed by it, and of course he would follow the law, but they would appeal some of these cases. so very interesting where we're going here. it's but again, i think we were talking in the break about gaza. so much of that i still think is a smoke screen for something else. i could be completely wrong. i think it's a distraction to distract the public from other things. again, i could be completely wrong there. but again, we all know they came fast to push all of these executive orders in the early days to throw people off balance. they threw democrats off balance. they threw republicans off balance. republican senators have been

around for decades. they were like, i have no idea what's going on here. this is insane. they threw the media off. so that was the purpose. and now as as things settle a bit, maybe we start to see the contours of what's legal, what's constitutional, and how the white house is going to respond to reforming government within those confines. >> yeah. >> and trump did say yesterday. >> that he'd be willing. >> to. >> work through congress. >> to get. congressional approval. >> for some of what doj is doing. >> so perhaps that's. warding off that constitutional crisis. >> of the defiance. >> of. >> court. >> orders. >> at least for now. >> but the administration is certainly not backing away. >> from that idea, that. >> option down the road. >> there is so much to say about this moment here. john heilemann. >> let's just. >> you know, we talked about john. >> we played the clip. >> there of elon. >> musk. >> suggesting. >> yeah, i'll be wrong sometimes. >> he also. >> said, we're going really fast. >> we're going to make mistakes. >> and if we make. >> mistakes, we'll correct them. but some of those. >> mistakes could have real world implications. >> we're already. >> seeing. >> talk about massive. research done for the department of

education. >> as to how to. >> better serve students. >> that's going. >> to be cut. >> we know. >> about health. research and such. >> that could. >> be cut. we know. usaid blown up, and we've cataloged. >> for weeks now on this show. >> is the nih. >> already frozen? >> it's already frozen. >> frozen nih, i don't think again, i think i think they're moving so fast. i actually think there's some things that they don't understand, like cancer trials, like alzheimer's trials, i think i think even some inside the administration don't understand. they've been moving this fast. they're stopping research that is critical for red state america for blue state, america for plaid america. trials that are stopped. >> halfway through. >> suddenly run out of money. and this. is happening. >> before rfk jr. >> even gets that confirmation vote. so that's. >> the danger here. >> what musk. >> is doing. >> and you're right, we just. >> discussed others have said some government reform needed. but he's not. >> only are there real security concerns. >> that's where. >> democrats perhaps. >> rightly, are focused. >> some of.

>> musk's staff. >> having no. >> clearance to be an extraordinarily. >> sensitive treasury. department systems, just to. >> name one example. and yet. >> they're doing. >> it. but they're cutting so much. >> they're cutting things that people. >> need, things. >> that. >> will be politically very unpopular. >> and weigh in. >> also, if you will, on that body language in the oval office. it's so striking. when was the last time donald trump was in a press availability where he only got a couple questions and elon musk got the vast majority didn't. >> seem to be sitting. >> too well with commander in chief. >> well. >> you know. >> i think if. >> there's. any if there's. was any. >> question. >> jonathan. >> about who is president right now. >> and who is the co-president, the. >> the at least. the semiotics of that scene made. >> that pretty clear. >> musk, in. >> the position. >> of. >> total dominance. >> you know, the notion that they were standing. >> that they were next to each. >> other. >> you know, doesn't. >> really give an. >> accurate picture of what was happening. and had musk. >> towering over trump. trump at his. >> desk, kind of looking at musk's kid. he barely contributing to the conversation. i just there's so

many things to unpack here, but i but i want to go back. >> i like. >> everyone who is. >> in favor of reforming government. >> i'm in favor. >> of reforming government. >> to i. >> like everyone who's. >> in favor. of transparency. i too. >> am in. >> favor of transparency. but what. >> what happened yesterday. >> was not. >> transparency. >> but elon musk. just taking questions. >> from reporters is. >> not i'm. >> for it, i'm for it. >> but it's. >> not. >> a. >> that's not a metric. >> of transparency. and maybe the opening of the door toward something that looked like transparency. but we don't know. >> we know some. >> of the. >> things. >> they're doing. >> we don't know many of. >> the. >> things we're doing. >> there is. >> no there is no complete, comprehensive doge provided list of the actions that it has taken of the systems that it has penetrated, of its ultimate ambition. >> or agenda. >> it's all. >> basically being. >> done by tweet. and you have elon musk not merely standing up there talking about talking about all the. >> things he talked. >> about. >> yesterday. >> but he's. >> also up. >> there. >> saying things.

>> making unfounded evidence free allegations. about massive fraud and corruption within these agencies that that they have sought to cut back. >> he claimed. >> yesterday that. >> they had. >> evidence of multiple people in the bureaucracy who now have net worths of tens of millions of dollars, no evidence provided, no transparency to those claims. how does he know that he made a dozens of totally unsupported statements, largely to justify what he's been doing while providing no backup whatsoever and saying, then we are the most transparent. i don't know of an organization ever, that's been more transparent than we are then referred people to go look at the at at the employees accounts on x, and didn't make note of the fact that he is operating under the under the guise of a special government employee, which means he's exempted from financial disclosures. so i. >> don't know. >> just on the basis of those simple facts, that. >> doesn't look a. >> lot like transparency to me. if somebody wants to sit down

and talk about what transparency would look like, i could make a i could i could lay what that looked like like what that looked like was filibustering and making stuff up. >> well, and ali, that's that's exactly why i think it's important if he's going to be doing this and taking really the pivotal role in this administration, he needs to have a presser every single day, and he needs to answer those questions every day. that that john heilemann was, was asking. >> i do think that some transparency comes from being able to ask musk about this. i'm glad we drilled down deeper on the optics of what was happening in the oval yesterday, because it was striking to see musk standing the attention of the room seemingly oriented around him. the tone that he used, i think, was also instructive. this flippant tone of we're doing things quickly. we may be wrong, but there are real impacts to that flippant tone and the fast pace that they're trying to enact here. so that's

the optics and the tone. but then on the substance piece of it, i think the transparency has been one of the largest concerns. and joe, you're right to point out that a press conference would help alleviate some of that. but the other thing that strikes me is that there are the conflicts of interest from musk that he was asked about in part. and there was something that took my attention this morning in the new york times. they found 11 of the federal agencies impacted by doj's actions have more than 32 pending actions or complaints into musk's six companies. so there's that piece of it. and then there's the role that congress could play here. and it's the one that i'm the most fascinated in, because we talk a lot about how democrats are stymied because they're in the minority. that's true. that's the way that congress is set up. it's a majority run body, and republicans have the majority on both sides. but starting this morning, there's a hearing in a subcommittee that's focused on doj's. for them, it's delivering on government efficiency. but democrats on that committee have the charge of wanting to lend some light to what is happening within doj's, because it's not

just questions about musk's conflicts of interest. it's also basic questions about who are the staffers that are making up the so-called doj's entity. we've gotten a little bit of information about some of them that they're 20 somethings with some concerning backgrounds. but this morning, my understanding is that democrats on that committee do have subpoena power. they've been blocked at various points, but they are going to try to do some public records requests that could shed some light. and on that, i want to bring in staff writer from the atlantic, mark leibovich. you and i were having this conversation on way too early just a little while ago, but this, to me, feels like a place that democrats could make up some ground and show the american public something that they didn't know or necessarily were aware of beforehand. when it comes to musk and when it comes to his employees, really at doj's. >> yeah. >> i mean, i do think this gets to the larger issue of the role of elon musk here. i mean, you know, obviously he could get up and talk about unelected bureaucrats and bureaucracies and so forth. obviously he himself was not elected. i do agree that, you know, it's good

that he is answering questions, and transparency is being displayed in some ways. i don't think a scene like what we saw yesterday is going to be repeated anytime soon, certainly without, you know, a kind of split screen scenario with donald trump sitting there. and i mean, whatever, as david said, the bizarre sort of spectacle that it was. but yeah, taken alone, this could be a piece of real political hay that democrats could make here. the thing is, though, that this is not taken alone. this is part of a larger blizzard of activity and seemingly the shock and awe image that keeps playing over and over and over again. i mean, this obviously does not sit alone, and it's unclear if democrats will have the wherewithal or even or even the knowledge at this point to focus on this and to really benefit from a politically well. >> and i've got to say, i'm mark i, i'm a bit frustrated when i hear about how helpless democrats are, because in the

minority in the senate, because they're in the minority in the house, i've seen democrats in the minority in the senate especially, do a lot of things to get in the way, to investigate, to slow down, to drive a message. i mean, we've seen it time and time again. i mean, you are probably old enough to remember the hillary clinton health care rollout. i mean, one republican after another in the minority, i believe, one republican after another would have, you know, would would, would figure out ways to poke holes in that plan. and they really did. they not only dominated the debate, but you had the chafee plan and you had the, you know, all these other other republican senators had their own plans. they were

being debated. so i keep hearing about how the democrat poor democrats are so helpless they can't do anything. no, they're elected and they're elected to do just this. i mean, the minority in the united states senate always, always has power. >> yeah, i would. >> i. >> would agree with you. although when you sort of mentioned the clinton age, you do get a sense of how different that world was, when actually washington could be singularly focused on an issue like health care, really to the, to, to the exclusion of everything else. i also think about, remember, i guess in the aughts when george w bush was targeting social security at a time when democrats seemed very much back on their heels, and yet they could focus on social security as the way to sort of get back in the game and ultimately reclaim, you know, power in washington in the 2006 elections. here you have a number of issues. i mean, obviously the dough stuff, the musk stuff, this was one of what, again, were several big stories. yesterday. you had the

gaza press conference. you had all these court decisions and so forth. and look, i mean, this is a larger blizzard that's in some ways enabled by the communications strategy of the trump administration, the internet, and just the changing landscape in general. but yeah, you're right, though, the democrats are not as helpless as they think they're they're clearly manifesting at this point. >> yeah. richard. final thoughts. yeah. >> doge is about government efficiency, joe. efficiency traditionally means last i checked the dictionary. this is ways of taking what you're doing, what your mission is, and performing in ways where you reduce costs, where you reduce the amount of inputs and you get the same or better amounts of outputs. >> right. >> what's going on is a lot more than efficiency. what's happening at aid, that is not an efficiency exercise that is essentially ending the operations of. >> an agency. >> exactly what's going on at nih. that's not an efficiency. >> and that's what i don't understand. like david ignatius, there are there are so many things you could get examples of every agency where there's waste, fraud and abuse. and you could call those out. and, i

mean, there's a way to do this that's legal, constitutional, transparent, and extraordinarily popular with the american people. that's why this sort of politically shoot first and ask questions later approach again, it seems again seems to be reckless, could be unlawful. it seems to be unconstitutional in places, but but mainly shortsighted politically for the trump administration. so, joe. >> the rules. >> are going to have to be set here by the courts. the wall street journal this morning has a very useful editorial that distinguishes between the probably legal things that trump and musk are doing. the clearly debatable things they're doing, like dissolving whole agencies like usaid without any legal mandate. and then the obviously illegal things they're doing, like birthright citizenship, is

the most obvious example. so the courts are going to have to make decisions about this whole raft of things. so something's being challenged every day. i disagreeing a bit with with mark, i don't think that there's all that much that, that, that the democrats can can do. absent these final decisions by the courts, once they come, we have to see whether the trump administration is going to going to obey them. the real constitutional crisis comes if the supreme court rules that these things are illegal and trump tries to keep doing them anyway, then we have a real full blown crisis. >> all right. the washington post's david ignatius and the atlantic's mark leibovich and john heilemann, thank you all so much. greatly appreciate it. president emeritus of the council on foreign relations, richard haass, thank you as well. coming up. today marks the unofficial start of a major league baseball season as pitchers and catchers report for

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8 american. >> workers and. every single. >> person in. >> philadelphia took. >> the day off yesterday. remember when trump said he would make the day after. >> the super. >> bowl a national holiday? >> when is that executive. >> order coming down the pike? let's whip out that fat little presidential. >> sharpie and. deliver on. >> might be the. >> only good thing you ever do. >> do it. >> welcome back to morning joe. we're getting we're getting a lot of suggestions from late night comedians like jon stewart likes the straw thing we found out yesterday and now, yeah, super bowl after holiday. we'll see. welcome back to morning joe. i'm just sort of mumbling now. mike is off today. it's wednesday, february the 12th. that means we need to talk more sports. actually more though is here. you'll you'll pull us back, right? if we get.

>> too far today. >> that's your job. >> okay. very good. jonathan lemire, mark gay, still with us. also a professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr. we're going to get an update on him on on his social media. you know how how you're doing. are you detoxing? are you you backing off a little bit? >> oh, you. >> know, you fall off the wagon, joe. >> oh my. >> fall off the wagon. >> anyway, the host of all in with chris hayes. chris hayes, his new book, the siren's call how attention became the world's most endangered resource, debuted at number one on the new york times bestsellers list last week. it's like elton. that's an elton john thing. it's like captain fantastic and the brown dirt cowboy. number one. >> the morning joe bump. >> well, let's get another one. why do you think the book's connecting? oh, i. >> think, you know, the book is about attention and how we sort of live in this perpetual state of distraction against our own will. and like odysseus bound to

the mast, we're fighting all the time to retain dominion over our own minds. and i think that was true a years ago about the relationship we have to this and the screens. and then now in the last two weeks, all of public life is that way, like it's completely mirrored between our relationship to this device and then our relationship to what's happening in the white house, where the literal venn diagram of these two things. elon musk, who owns one of the platforms, right, is also the person driving this kind of compulsive, attention seeking behavior that's coming from the white house. i mean, trump has done more events, public events in the first two weeks than most presidents do in the first six months. i want to say, right, like the way that your phone is buzzing with notifications, that's now the white house, right? >> number one rule, by the way, kids at home, if you don't want to end up addicted to your smartphone like eddie glaude, turn off all notifications. that

is the first. >> actual interventions with people. >> that is the first thing that the silicon valley titans will tell you that that that that like, they don't let their kids get screen time. and the first thing they tell you is on this to turn off all notifications. and the. >> key thing here is because as i write in the book, we have this faculty for what, you know, involuntary attention, right? if you're in a restaurant and a waiter drops a tray of glasses, right. everyone looks before you get to decide whether you want to look or not like or if you're looking at your phone on the street and the car honks like it reaches your attention. they hardwired that faculty into the phone with notifications and the haptic buzz that is the car honk is reaching into the deep wiring of your brain. >> exactly. because i have four children, you know, i've paid close attention to this, and not only for children, but for myself, for mika, for everybody. and there was a study where they had. >> four adults on the phone just

on the table. >> four adults on the table. turn the phone off, and the adults still glanced at their phone every 14 seconds. every because we're conditioned. so let me ask this question because i will say i and i am serious that doomscrolling it's really bad for you. it really is, i think. i think it helps not you, but for all of us, it we lose perspective. we really lose perspective on what's out there. it also, you know, there's the rudyard kipling poem if you can keep your head about you when all those around you are losing theirs. i didn't say it perfectly, but it's all about like, i'm not saying anybody should be zen going through this. i am saying strategically, we are better if we keep our minds about us and if we keep it in perspective. so, mara, let me ask you, what's so? i used to. you know, since 2009, twitter

nonstop. it was fun, right? i'm not going to lie, it was fun. okay. >> this is the good old days. >> that's right. i never done cocaine, but it was like all. my cocaine. okay, so. so those were the good old days. but now you have the doomscrolling. it's gotten so toxic. >> yeah. >> so the question is, how do you and i come to you? because the new york times editorial this weekend was extraordinary. they said, do not disconnect. right. do not. but there is a balance. so. so what is that balance. well. >> it's interesting. >> because we. >> assume that. >> connection means being. >> wired to our phones. >> but actually that is. >> what is stopping us in. >> many cases. >> from connecting. in a meaningful way with our family members, our. >> friends, our community. so i think what we. >> actually meant. >> was get plugged back in with your community. so there's a

bell curve, i think, here. and it's. >> hard. >> to find that for all. of us. >> and my. >> friends and i are all. >> texting each other at night. i'm going to. >> put. >> my phone in the bedroom. >> so i. can't look at. >> it for. >> an hour. >> you know. i'm going. >> to leave. >> it when i go for a walk. >> so that i can focus. >> on just talking to you and listening to what's going on in. >> your life. so we're all kind of trying to find strategies. >> but but i think more. >> broadly speaking, just for. >> our politics, people. >> have to start getting together. >> in person. >> and talking about what is happening in our lives. and in this country. there's a loneliness epidemic. >> as. >> well. >> the entire country. and i. >> think the phone. >> is so tempting. because it makes you feel like. >> you're connected. >> and in. >> some ways, yes, it can. >> help. >> but after a certain point, it's not the same connection as in-person connection, and. >> it actually. >> distracts you and prevents. >> you from. >> getting. >> outside the door. >> and you're so right about connecting with people. and i connect with people who voted in a way i will never understand,

but it sure does help to talk to them. and it's not one of these things like, i am going to drive to central pennsylvania and no, i just talked to my relatives, i talked to my friends, i talked to, i sometimes i will go on public forums where people are talking, and it is fascinating to hear a 34 year old man who voted democratic until donald trump started running and just sit there and listen, right. and again, i it that helps. and again, i'm not saying to say i want to understand why, you know, people are out there saying screw the supreme court. no. right. the politician in me says, okay, so. i don't understand what happened in november, but i do understand i don't want it to happen next november. >> yes. >> yeah. and so that's where you have to get uncomfortable. and, you know, i will say i keep trying the flip phone. >> yeah.

>> i keep getting pulled back. and i will tell you the flip phone because your kids have it, you know. right. your your spouse has it. and you know that when you go out, if you know. so that's helped. i, i do wonder though, eddie, also when we're talking about attention. and this all goes back to chris's book, if democrats are trying to get an answer on where they need to go, they're not going to get that answer. doomscrolling and i don't mean to sound like an old man. >> no. >> that's true. they're going to get that answer on a walk. on a long walk. they're going to get that answer when they're sitting in their house reading a book. they're going to get that answer by maybe reading a book of fiction. it's not, you know, doomscrolling won't get it. i've talked about being at jimmy carter's funeral. and, you know, people are like, how how do you

get past disinformation? i think in large part, democrats and independents and republicans who care about the things that we care about. i think in large part, you go back to basics. you go back to simplicity. of all the things i've heard, that one of the most beautiful things in carter's funeral, ted mondale, was reading his father's, his father's words on jimmy carter eulogy. and he said they were going to put this document together. to sum up what happened over their four years in the white house. and that document ended up being we told the truth. we respected the law. we kept the peace. sometimes that cuts through a. >> billion tweets. >> absolutely. >> a hemingway like sentence is much better than a henry james sentence. i think i want to just say that very clearly, but i want to be very, very i want i

want to. >> push back. >> a little bit, joe. and that is to say, it's, you know, we it's not just doomscrolling. right? >> sometimes there's a, a public. >> with which you are in conversation with that you can drive information to now that public can be surrounded by digital red shirts, can be surrounded by performative. >> virtue folks. >> and they intervene and they attack you, and then you get mobbed and the like. but there's a way in which we can use these platforms, and particularly the younger generation, to drive information to each other. right. it's true that in this moment where you think a certain kind of understanding of character is bound up with the formation of attention, how we attend to each other, and we in a moment and this comes out of. critiques of mass consumer culture all the way to this moment. we're experiencing the deformation of attention in interesting sorts of ways, and the deformation of attention has everything to do with look at the birdie over here, look at. this over here. and not pay attention to this right here. but what i'm thinking about is that you're right. we have to do those simple things. >> those those. >> those, you know, face to face

things, those bodily contact corporal in the engagements. but we also have to understand that these things have fundamentally changed. >> how. >> we live our lives. and we have to figure out how to do it. just like, because a lot of what we're saying people. >> were saying about the radio. yeah, a lot of people were saying about television. >> now this is dramatically different, but it's a technological intervention in how we deal with it. >> i will say. >> though. >> and yes, the radio changed america. the television changed so much. but here we're talking about a rewiring of the brain. could you talk about how social media has rewired the brain, how smartphones rewired the brain? i mean, you can look at the numbers. when kids started getting smartphones in 2010, 2011, well, everything changed that. nothing magical happened. it's not it's not because something magical happened in washington, d.c. in 2010 or 11. it's because kids started getting smart phones, and i don't see a lot of good coming

out of that. >> i mean, you've got i mean, in terms of the sort of empirical measurements, right? we've seen global reading scores decline. my favorite thing is that we're seeing more and more evidence that americans, the aggregate testing on cognitive tests is declining, which shouldn't happen as a country gets richer. right? as countries get richer, those tests tend to go up. it's called the flynn effect. so we've seen the beginnings of a reversal of that. so there's clearly something happening. and i think, you know, one of the things that when you think like do you feel it or not, it's like everyone feels it. but to eddie's point, i think this is really important is that i do think it's sort of it's interesting to try to separate two things. the particular form of monetized attention capitalism we have with these platforms. right, right. that have created slot machines whose whole point is to maximize the number of hours that you look at it. right. and then the core of digital connection, which is an amazing thing, which has transformed the world, which has which is sort of creating and recreating publics all the time.

there are ways to have one without the other, like we've had versions of an internet that was much more open, much less captured by the algorithmic feed than the one we have now. i came up in that internet. i love that internet. i sound like an old man, like waxing nostalgic. so i think that's one of the things to think about. >> how was glenn miller live? >> yeah. or what was it like to just go to a web page and type in a url that you wrote down on a piece of paper? >> you mean like you're waiting. >> for. >> the modem to connect? >> yes. yeah. but the last thing, and i think this is part of the sort of weird, poisonous moment we're in, there's it is both the case that online is not real life, in that the kind of mobbing that happens in that space and. not real life attentional social dynamics are distorted. right. and it is also the case that, like we're watching in the case of elon musk, like he is very real, he is very powerful and his behavior is being driven 100% by

the twisted psychology of this kind of social attention addiction. and that is real life, like the stuff that elon musk does in the world that he is, that is that he is being conditioned to do by his exchange with this platform. right? is absolutely happening in the world. >> and i will say, while frightening to millions and millions of americans, that's also an opportunity for democrats and independents and republicans that don't want to go that way. and that opportunity is because it's not a reflection of real life. >> yes. >> democrats play off of that. there's so much here. it is so crazy, what, 1.5%, 1.5%. 1.5% is what what made the difference. and i will say again, i think the democrats need to get right on so many things. but this whole idea that this was a huge washout and the elon musks of

america have won the cultural battle. yeah, i'm so old and so tired of every election being treated like the last one. yeah. i remember telling a member of the obama administration, like a year and a half in when they just still were just thinking everything they did was right. like, do you not think that george w bush's team and karl rove, when they walked through the white house gates, do you not think they thought they were the smartest people in the world? this changes, and i will just say to people at home that think that this election was a watershed election, a lesbian woman won in wisconsin, a woman won in michigan for the senate, a really progressive, really progressive hispanic won in arizona, a woman won in nevada.

now, if you just took those four races, yeah, just those four races, you would look at those four races and go, oh my god, this country is really moving to. >> the left. >> right? so donald trump won. yeah he won. but but to go that oh wisconsin is far right. and it it supports everything that elon musk and donald trump and no. if you were. >> if. >> you the way i would. >> say it is this let's say you're in a room. it's got 100 people and there's 52 people in black shirts and 50 and 48 in white shirts. if two of them change their shirts, that's the election, that is. but it would be crazy to be like, i don't recognize this room. yeah, that's the election. that's literally. that's the election. 52 to 42 people. they walk over, they. >> walk in, they go, this is not my room anymore. >> yeah, yeah. >> this is not my. and i will say, this is the genius the i better say mad genius. this is the mad genius of donald trump where you fill the zone so much

that you do for you twist and distort reality. so people like eddie on social media 24 hours a day think that all is lost. it's like the end of the redford movie. all is lost. >> do you? >> you don't. you don't think all is lost. >> do you think all is lost? >> you're teaching a baldwin seminar. >> you're grappling. >> with whether or not. i'm grappling with whether or. >> not the country. >> is redeemable. in my in my, in my latest work. >> because those. two shirts. >> no. >> because of. >> the reason why the 48. >> shirts look. >> the way they look. >> and the reason why they look the way they look. everything in the us, america. >> is not about race. >> but everything. is about race, actually, on so many different levels. and part of what i'm trying to figure out is what would motivate the american public to give to put donald trump behind the resolute desk again. and if that motivation isn't the price of eggs, which

we were told it was, but is something else that actually reflects something much deeper in the country, that goes. back to. >> it's what you're saying, those 52 shirts are 51.5 is about race. >> no, i'm talking about the 52 is if i understood the 5248. >> right. >> 52%. >> yeah. >> no, no. but but what i'm saying is you're saying the 52 margin that you're saying the margin was impacted because of. >> the very things. >> you're talking about, the split ticket voting. >> right? >> right. >> it doesn't it doesn't. >> make sense that she would lose in these states and these these other women would win these. >> i mean. >> i ask, can i ask you a question? >> sure. >> no. >> if barack obama were running against donald trump this year, who do you think would have won? oh my god, you don't even have to think that long. >> i'm going to say i was going to say donald trump. but the same reason. >> obama. >> you think donald trump won? >> no. >> donald obama would. >> have. >> walked away with it. >> no kidding me. >> no. >> george w. >> bush.

>> would have beaten donald trump. >> no. >> oh my god. >> oh my god. oh no. >> well, here's a question. do you think since we're just. yeah. counterfactual. >> i just got. >> back. >> we're just. >> like on earth on twin earth. one thing that i wrestle with, because it relates to this question about how the deep stuff that's going on is, does nikki haley win by a bigger what? does nikki haley outperform donald trump as the republican nominee? >> i think i think that if. >> you think no and i think no, i thought yes the whole election and now i think no, i do think there was a special sauce there. >> i think i think i think the first woman and i'm not the first to say this at all, like the president is, is a republican woman. >> oh, that i agree with. but do you think haley outperforms trump? no. if she's the nominee. yeah. >> no. >> it takes you that long to answer that question. >> well, my god, you don't think barack obama would have beaten donald trump? no, that is shocking to me. >> you know what? >> what? >> because at the heart of donald trump's strategy is that

there are more of us that don't vote than them. how do i turn out the disaffected, white, low propensity voter? and he does it every he did it every single time when he's not on the ballot. they don't show up when he's on the ballot. they show up. >> when you're making my point, you're making my point, which is which is. and this is what i've seen over 30 years in politics, people always, i always. and i even told republicans on the house floor when we were going around, we're going to burn the place down to balance the budget. after a couple of years, i'd say to them, go. guys, i've been out. people aren't ideological, right? right. like if we want to balance a budget, we're not going to balance the budget by like, but we have to have a better argument and connect that to people's lives. and so what i found is this political athletes win. ronald

reagan in 1980 was far more conservative than america. ronald reagan won in landslides in 80 and 84. and everybody thought that the reagan coalition was transferable and that the world had changed on its axis. and then bill clinton got elected. and then everybody thought democrats thought, i can beat bill clinton. no, bill clinton can be bill clinton. and then barack obama, right. barack obama wins. and my god, what a massive majority he started with. but the obama coalition, which everybody thought was transferable, not transferable. and that's why donald trump and this is the point, donald trump wins because he's donald trump. like donald trump's political skills are not transferable, just like reagan's weren't just like clinton's weren't just like obama's weren't just like his weren't. >> yeah. >> but i think that's right. i think it's also. >> true. >> that the. country at large is so at the moment distrustful of

institutions, of government, of people who work in government. there's so much anger. and that is one of the only kind of constant threads between republicans and democrats is a distrust of all of these institutions, including the media, by. >> the way. >> and i think at that moment, that moment is made for someone like donald trump to come along. as a. >> i'm going to come. >> break things and be a disrupter. >> now. >> no one here believes that. >> that's that he is. >> the solution, right? no question. but i think, unfortunately. >> that coalition. >> the democratic coalition, small d is. >> broken and the failure of institutions that's it led to a moment where donald trump could do it. and by the way, this is this is like political fantasy football. we're just talking i don't i don't know if barack obama would have beaten donald trump. i but but. >> let's run a randomized

controlled trial. >> and i. >> know and i. >> know i'm getting killed on twitter right now. no, i'm. >> just kidding. >> oh my god. >> but this. >> does bring us full circle. >> bring us. >> full circle. >> joe, because i told him to stay off twitter. we were talking last time he was here and he was going like this, like. >> i got it turned over. >> but good for you. >> of your book. >> chris. >> which is i cannot tell you the number of americans i have come into contact with in the. past three weeks, just ordinary people in the course of my day to day life who have said, gosh, you know, i didn't really think it would be this bad under trump, right? gosh, did did they. >> say something? did you say something. >> about project 2025? i didn't think it was serious. and that is. >> about the award for the war. >> for attention. >> and i think americans. >> are so. >> what it takes so. >> much more to break. through because we're all high. >> and i also think the other thing that he has really benefited from, because it would drive me crazy, would come to campaign and be like, i hate to break this to you, but i swear to you, he was president before, right? like he actually was in office. there actually is a record. and one of the things

that happens is i think we understand this intuitively. when our attention is focused, we commit things to memory. right. if you're like in a near car crash, right, that will be seared in your head, the birth of your first child. but when we are distracted, things don't get stored in memory, right? if you're like, distracted, you're like, where did i put my wallet? so the state of constant distraction creates this situation, which no one remembers anything. >> he's done. >> he's doing the tariffs on canada and mexico. what what set the tariff schedule for canada or mexico? the deal that he negotiated the first time around when he was president. >> yeah. and not just distraction. >> but trauma, which this country has been. >> so you're like, yeah. >> and speaking of trauma and speaking of the lack of well, alex is going through trauma right now saying. >> sorry, sorry, alex. >> sorry. but you talk about the trauma of covid. that's something i will tell you. that is something that we all have underestimated and in part, we put aside. yeah. >> it's just too much. it's like. >> right. like you like you said. >> you know. >> the lack of attention span.

so many americans put that aside. and what a lot of voters wearing those 5152 shirts said was i like things better before covid. yeah, yeah. and so for those non-ideological people, i don't think again, i don't think that was all about race. i think there were a lot of people just saying, you know, things were better before covid. and he was. >> he was there. >> before covid. they don't remember 2020, but they remember their life before covid and they wanted to go back to it, which is, of course, trump. >> trump pulled off this amazing thing of like his presidency ended in 2019, right? it's like literally like the trump presidency ended in 2019. like, what are we what did we do in 2020? who was president? >> we lost a million people. >> yeah. yeah. no, you know that. but again you look you look at those 52 shirts again. that's that is that is a great way to look at it. and i think democrats are making a huge mistake if they don't think that the 48 people in that room with shirts are terrified by

everything that's going on, and a good chunk of those 52% right now are going, oh my gosh, yes, he's finally taking it to these institutions that have failed for 20 years. oh my gosh, we're finally getting somebody going through the agencies and they're going to clean it. they're going to take it down to the stub. they're going to rebuild it. like that's what the 52 shirts are saying right now. or a lot of. >> them, a lot of them are. but also and i think you made this point like i watch when you watch elon musk, donald trump has talked about political athletes. donald trump has a particular set of skills, i think undeniably right. elon musk does not have those skills. i'm sorry. watching the man publicly communicate. we are not dealing with the same political athlete that donald trump is. and when you hand over the mic for 30 minutes to that dude to explain, by the way, i don't think that message punctures or carries in the same way it does from donald. >> by the way, look at donald trump right there. >> anybody who's spectator hold on. >> hold on though, anybody who thinks he didn't know what was going to happen. >> oh. >> he knew like he knew exactly how this was going to play out.

he's looking at elon musk and he's going, okay sink. >> yeah yeah. >> you say this, you take the heat for this. i'm not going to be taking the heat for it. you take the heat for it. so people are going look at poor donald trump. he's sitting there. he's not even the know. he knows exactly what he's doing. yeah. and he's saying, all right musk. this is like a lot of heat coming in here. you take it. >> yeah. >> trump adviser told me just. >> last week a story that i wrote that that that trump's okay. >> with for now. anyway with musk getting attention because musk is playing a useful role. he's the fall guy. yeah, he's taking the blame. trump's able to stay above the fray with some of these unpopular decisions that musk and the team are making. >> and by the way, when things go bad, when cancer research is caught, when university of alabama has to start laying off people, and katie britt is very concerned about it, because when all of this stuff happens, then donald trump, it's very easy for him to go. elon went too far. >> can't you hear it now? he was

just a special government employee. >> yeah. >> exactly. >> okay. >> and a special msnbc host, chris hayes, who, like me, has been on a one week contract for the past couple decades. chris and i have always joked, like, we were always we would call, go, are they taking you out yet? because no. is that not true? >> yeah. >> so i love. you so much because you're a survivor. because every day you'd hear one of two things back ten years ago. oh, yeah. this is the week that chris hayes gets fired. this is the week that joe scarborough. >> gets fired. so on every day. >> yeah i one day i one day i had somebody warned me going dude they're going to come in. they're going to put a bag over your head and like walk you out the front door. it's like, chris and i will do it together. we'll do it. you're still here. and number one, number one, baby, that sounds good. thanks for having. all right. thank you. number one, new york times best seller is titled the siren's call how attention became the world's most endangered resource. it is an

extraordinarily important read, and we'll, of course, be watching all in right here on msnbc. and still ahead on morning joe. we're going to get out of like, the abstract fantasy football of politics, and we're going to actually bring you an update on the trump administration's efforts to dismantle u.s. aid, to go through to the real world implications of that agency's work. plus, we're going to show you what new york city mayor eric adams is saying about the justice department's order to dismiss the charges against him. what did they catch him in the post doing? was he getting, like, laser. >> laser hair removal, hair removal? >> where? >> i don't want to know. >> no. >> thank you. there's a photograph. >> where i don't. >> i. >> don't want. >> to know. >> and where there's no. >> there's no hair on. >> his head. >> there is. yeah, exactly. >> the sunglasses on. >> all right. we're a little over five weeks away. let's change the subject really quickly from opening day for major league baseball. but the pursuit of title starts today with the league's pitchers and

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>> is. >> four years old. and as you can see, trump was super. >> excited to have the kid there. >> what is the. >> goal of dojo or. >> and i think a significant part. >> of. >> this of. >> presidency is to restore democracy. >> so much warmth. >> you know, it's. >> like a grandfather. and look at trump's orange angry face next. >> to sheet. >> white elon musk. it's like a q-tip next to a traffic cone. so then the kids, you know, he's. >> being a kid and. >> he starts. picking his nose. >> between now and next. >> year. >> there is no inflation. >> there is no inflation. >> and it's good. >> if the government is not borrowing as much. thank you. >> so much. well. >> i hope you find some government waste in there. don't get it on the diet coke button. >> not quite. >> john john kennedy under. >> the desk. >> but certainly. >> a. >> scene we're remembering. >> child in the oval office. >> let's turn now. >> mercifully, to sports. the majority. >> of major league. >> baseball teams officially. >> begin their hunt for a.

>> 2025 world series trophy. >> today. >> with pitchers and catchers. >> from. >> 19 clubs reporting. >> for spring training in. >> both arizona. >> and florida. >> that includes the new york. >> mets, who. after a busy offseason that, of course, saw. >> them sign. >> juan soto. >> to a record 15 year contract. >> are still looking for their first championship since 1986. i forget who they beat. >> that year. >> let's bring in now. >> the host of pablo torre. >> finds out on meadowlark media. msnbc contributor pablo torre and. >> pablo. >> let's dive right in the latest episode of your show, you. >> spoke with an old. >> college classmate. >> of yours who's now new york mets president of. >> baseball operations. >> david stearns. >> he explained. >> why the. franchise decided to give soto. >> that blockbuster contract that off season. >> here we had a. >> situation where we have a player who's had as good a start to his major league career as arguably any hitter in the history of baseball becomes freely available for competitive bidding as he's entering his peak years and has proven that.

he performs at an extraordinarily high level on the biggest stages. this is a player who's played in multiple world series, won a world series, performed well in our market, which isn't always a given. and so you add all these things up, and we knew this was going to break all sorts of records. so. >> pablo. >> the most. >> beautiful words in the english language are. >> pitchers and catchers. >> report that is happening. >> yes. >> our. >> winter is over. >> thank god the mets though, come. >> into this year. >> certainly with. >> something. they don't often have a lot of expectations. >> with soto. they didn't spend a. lot elsewhere. but talk a little more about this conversation and how stearns sees this season. >> yeah. >> so i was a sportswriter on the college paper, a freshman covering field hockey. >> and wrestling. >> and. >> baseball and crew, and one of my classmates, who was. >> a hockey and football. >> beat writer, was this guy named david stearns. and david. >> stearns back. >> then was. >> a. hard hitting columnist. >> he would criticize. >> the teams he had. >> he had a backbone. >> i was an. >> unhinged yankee fan. you guys. >> are familiar.

>> with me? yeah, yeah. >> stearns grew up. >> an. >> obsessive mets fan. >> and so the idea that 20. >> years later. >> i would have. >> a. >> conversation with him in which. >> i had. >> to. tell him for. >> the first. >> time in earnest. i have. >> never felt. >> jealous of. >> the new york mets until now. >> that's where we are in new york city. >> we have a met team that is acting. >> like the yankees. >> that john. >> the number one thing you need. >> in. >> baseball. >> right, is to have the power. >> of the purse. >> right? >> you need. >> your billionaire. and steve cohen. >> the owner. >> of the mets, is. >> the richest. >> owner. >> joe, in all. >> of baseball. >> and you. >> also need. >> somebody who knows. >> how to find. competitive advantages at. >> the edges. >> someone who is. >> cost conscious. >> who knows how. >> to. >> run a small market. >> team, which. >> david stearns did. he came. >> from the brewers and the astros. >> you have. >> spending thrift. >> and you. >> have unlimited. >> budget. >> and. >> you get juan. soto and all the other moves he's. >> making that made them. >> the best team in baseball. after june, something. >> last season. >> so what happened with the pete alonso negotiations? so

weird. alonso ended up losing a lot of money by holding out. and i you know, he kept hearing that he wanted to get out of new york. what happened? i don't get i don't get. >> that at all. >> yeah. so scott boris who is alonso's agent, also the agent for juan soto who got the $765 million contract richest in the history of sports. that deal we always talk about. alonso was. >> asking not. >> for that much, but. for more. >> for a raise on his. >> previous deal. >> and what happened was. >> pete alonso. i think. >> his bluff got called a bit. >> the mets valued him. >> he's homegrown right. >> the polar bear's. >> a homegrown. >> figure, a. guy who wanted. >> to stay in new york. >> and so when it. >> came to. >> dave stearns. >> my classmate and the. >> president of baseball operations, he was like. >> we're not. >> going to just give you what you want. we're going to play some hardball. and pete alonso checked out the market. >> and. >> realized the best. >> deal for. >> me is a. discount for. >> the mets. >> and so he remains. >> let's talk about the year. the question america is asking,

will the red sox at least get a wild card position? they're right around. >> this is. >> that. >> spot right now. >> they finished. >> 8181 last year. they made it. >> they made a couple. >> of nice moves. >> this offseason. they traded. >> for. >> garrett crochet. >> they've improved their pitching. they've still got some holes on the offense. they haven't spent a ton of money. they're still in talks with alex bregman. we will see if that happens. but pablo. >> beyond the red. >> sox. >> you guys. >> are. >> looking. >> up at the. >> orioles. right now. hold on. this is what. >> you guys. >> are doing. i want to give the counterpoint i want to get. and this is not me. just this is not the obama you guys have a trump. you guys have. a group chat and you try to therapy yourselves. it's pretty simple. i mean, you look at you look at young players on teams, up and coming players, red sox, i'd stack them up next to anybody. we've got great young players. i think the question is all these moves that we've made over the last two years on pitchers and, you know, they sign and just like chris sale, their arm falls off the second they sign and get hundreds of millions of dollars. that's happened with a couple of our guys over the past couple of

years. if that bullpen comes together, if a starting rotation comes together and it could happen with the young players, we have, the talent we have and the talent coming up, we have. we're i think we're in pretty i, i know nobody in boston wants to hear this. i kind of like where we are. yeah. you have. >> arguably the best farm system in the league. they have three like top 10 or 15 players. in the sport, all expected to come up in the majors this year or next. so the future. >> is bright. >> we've been talking, joe, about you have not tried cocaine before. >> but i have been on twitter. the red. >> sox thing feels. >> like weapons grade narcotics at this point. you got. >> it's just come on, guys. >> i mean, come on. >> there's a fair criticism. >> that the ownership. >> group has. >> not spent in recent years. >> we will. >> see what happens. >> but they do have. >> young players. >> they have one of the best managers in baseball. you know, they. >> will they'll be in the. >> mix this year. they you know, but also it's a season that

goes. >> in the. >> the storyline. >> is the dodgers. >> well i mean i mean i mean the thing is i put i'll push back hard. we'll talk about this later on with. duran abreu. you you've got anthony coming up. you've got a lot of great young players. you've got casas on first base, you've got campbell who's going to be an all star. you can go down the list. they've got great players. maybe you know what you ought to do. you ought to research more than just the $700 million deal. and maybe you'll have a future in this business that here is the really here is the question can anybody beat the dodgers. >> yeah. i mean, look. >> we're we're. >> we're arguing at the margins. >> exactly, exactly. >> you know, we're. making ourselves feel better. i am as well as a yankee fan. the dodgers are the model like no one i gave you the formula right. money and wisdom. >> this is. >> a team run by former tampa bay rays. executives who now. >> run the. dynasty of our time. >> they make good small moves. they got a great farm. >> system. >> and they spend more money than anybody. >> so, pablo, we got one more athlete. >> to tell you about. >> oh, sure. >> the most. >> prestigious dog show in the united. states has a new winner. >> really? >> yes, sir. 149th annual westminster kennel.

>> club dog. >> show took. >> place last night. >> just down the street. >> at mascot. >> garden. >> right here in new york city, and the competition was. >> fierce and furry and you can imagine. >> but one. >> pooch proved. to be. >> in a league all his own. >> the highest. >> honor for best. >> in show went. to monty, a five year. >> old black. >> giant schnauzer. here's what his co-owner. >> said about. >> the win. >> i know he's your dog. talk about. this show, what it means just to be here, but this moment right now, as you're taking it in with all the trophies. >> you're going to. >> ruin my picture. >> tears are good. the emotion, how much it means to you. that puppy did the damn thing. >> and i'm so proud of him. that's what it means. >> congrats, monty. and for monty's. >> reward, retirement. >> his handler says the pooch will. >> live the rest. >> of. >> his life as a cherished. >> family pet. yeah, i was hoping. >> monty would get some words in. >> in that interview. >> the postgame. i wanted. >> to see what. >> monty had to say about their

performance, but. >> i guess he has a spokesperson. >> everybody see best in show tonight. oh, yeah. and one of these years, the golden retriever will win. yeah. you know, the golden retriever never won this contest. >> i did not. >> know that. shut out. >> well, monty, by the way, break his silence on his podcast being released later. >> this week. >> naturally. >> speaking of podcast host pablo. >> torre. >> well done. >> that is really good. this is a professional heading out. he's a professional. >> meadowlark media, the name of the podcast pablo torre. >> finds out. >> msnbc contributor pablo torre. >> thank you. >> as always. >> midseason form. >> here we go. >> pitchers and catchers. >> we are ready. very impressive. >> coming up. >> we'll take a closer. >> look at what some government workers are. saying about the trump. >> administration's war. >> on the federal bureaucracy. >> as the white house says, it's looking to cut costs. plus, gop congressman mike lawler of new york will join us ahead of federal. >> reserve chair. >> jerome powell's house hearing. morning joe, we'll. >> be right back with that, governor. >> ramble on. >> now, the town the town. >> is down. >> that's $225 for the night.

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>> from that piece. while the agency. >> delivers humanitarian. >> aid, it had been popular with many republicans because it also projected american. >> strength. >> and influence in countries whose loyalties in this moment, joe, are. >> up for grabs. >> that's right. again, i keep telling the story about why harry truman called called in herbert hoover after world war two. because as as truman and hoover agreed, hungry europeans were more likely to become europeans who were communists, and they did not want to lose western europe the same way they lost eastern europe to the soviets. and my gosh, again, i. this is the definition of soft power, where the united states goes in and we do things that the chinese don't even think about doing. it doesn't make sense to the chinese or the russians to go in and say, we're going to help these people for one, because for humanitarian

purposes, but two, just strategically, it makes great sense. and i will say, even if they want to be cynical about it, it helps us keep tabs on al qaeda. and, you know, in an isis across africa. it helps us keep an eye on china. i mean, there there are good reasons to do it. there are moral reasons to do it, there strategic reasons to do it anyway. with us now, let's bring in the authors of those two pieces, writer at large for the new york times, elisabeth bumiller. her article is titled for stunned federal workers sleeplessness, anger and tears, and senior political columnist for politico, jonathan martin. his piece is titled america can and americans can and will die from this. u.s. aid workers detail dangers and chaos. i will say, elizabeth, that when i was told yesterday that i had elisabeth bumiller and j. mart coming on, i go, this is i mean,

this is like fred astaire and ginger rogers to, to which for politics to which alex said, well yes, but of course, elisabeth is fred astaire. so anyway, you all take that how you want to take it. now let's, let's go to the very serious here first. first of all, elizabeth, you know, i've been i've been so taken aback by some democrats who have quietly said, oh, let's not argue about u.s. aid. you know, people don't care about foreign aid. let's not. and it's just it seems like talk about learning all the wrong lessons from from the campaign. i know you're a reporter, but just u.s. aid has a lot of programs that that that need to be taken off the books. but they've done so much good across the world for the united states. and talk about the impact for the people who've been part of helping feed children in sudan,

helping stopping disease across africa and other continents. >> well, that's the that's the irony. >> here. >> that one of the most. important things that. >> usaid does. >> is, is. >> pepfar. >> which was started by a republican president. >> george w bush. >> and the irony. >> here. >> again. >> is that republicans. >> have been some of the biggest. >> supporters of. >> usaid. >> because. >> as you. >> said. >> it's. >> the it's projection. >> of soft power. the us is in parts. >> of the world. >> where it's important to. >> to show. >> the. >> flag, especially when china is trying. >> to make inroads. >> and the. >> other factor here, of course, is. >> that it's. >> less than. 1% of. >> the federal budget. >> many americans. >> think that the united states. >> spends 25%. >> of its budget. >> on foreign aid. >> and that it should be closer to 10%. the reality. >> is. >> it's less than 1%. and we can. >> talk. >> about what this has done to the workers themselves. >> i mean, they've. been that they've. >> been fired in. >> the middle of the night. >> by tweets. they've been. told with 24 hours. >> to go that.

>> their health. >> insurance is. >> running out. >> and it's been. >> a very. >> frantic scramble for these people. >> and they. >> but. >> they say at the same. >> time that. >> you know, their. >> real concern. >> is that the people. >> they serve. >> in these. >> foreign countries. >> who are completely. >> left. >> left hanging right now. >> yeah. and jane elizabeth points out pepfar, 25 million lives saved so far by george w bush program. this is not a far left program david french was on earlier this week talking about all of the faith based programs from evangelical churches, from catholic organizations. this is a this is also yeah, there i'm sure there's some left wing programs in here. there also some faith based programs here that you would think republicans would be the first to defend. >> well. >> certainly in an. earlier era. but i think this is. >> a different time. and this. >> is, frankly, a more. >> secular party, joe, than it. >> was 20 years ago. >> certainly 30 years ago.

>> i spoke. >> to somebody. >> working in. >> the field. >> for. >> usaid. >> a really brave person. >> and this person chronicled what the last. >> few days have. >> been like. and it doesn't matter. >> your view of the program. >> and. >> you know. >> you can think it. >> should be axed. >> you can think. >> it. >> should. >> be doubled in funding. that's irrelevant. you just. >> you don't treat american. >> officials who. >> are serving the. >> country abroad, whether. >> in. >> uniform or not. >> this way you don't. >> do that. >> to our. >> our fellow countrymen and especially those. who are serving in. >> really dangerous. >> neighborhoods, trying to do. good for. >> the country. i think a lot of viewers out there. maybe aren't familiar with. >> the extent. >> of chinese efforts. >> at global hegemony. >> look, there's a. >> belt and road. >> program out of. >> beijing. >> and they are trying. >> to make inroads in every. >> corner of the world and develop friendships. >> by offering infrastructure for the developing world. they are on. >> the march. >> with that program, and we have to. counter that. and that's. what part of usaid does.

>> elizabeth, this is eddie glaude. could you. please give us. >> a better. >> sense of what dodge is doing with usaid? what does it portend? in some ways, what we're seeing with usaid could be considered kind of the canary in the mine. so what should we take from what's happening here for what we might think will be happening down the road? >> well, this has been. >> the. >> so far, the most. >> aggressive assault, i would say, on. >> a. >> federal agency. >> their plan. so far. >> it's. >> been it's been temporarily. >> blocked by judges. >> the doj's plan. >> that is also. >> trump's plan. >> was to take. >> to reduce. >> usaid from 10,000. >> employees to a little. >> less than 300. >> that basically is no longer. >> an agency. you can't run. >> you can't do anything. >> with that number of people. >> with the kind of ambitions. >> that. >> usaid had. now that's all been blocked. >> but at the same time, there's been thousands. >> of contractors who have also

been fired outright. >> they do not. >> have the job. >> protections that the. >> the federal employees have. >> and those. >> contractors are a big part. >> of it as well. so i think. >> this is this was their test case. >> to show. >> what they. >> could do, and they. >> did it. >> so they've. >> done it so quickly and overnight in a matter of weeks. >> they've done this. they've taken down. >> the sign on the. >> usaid building. >> on. pennsylvania avenue in the. >> reagan building. >> so it's. >> it's a. >> it's a test case for them. and that's. what they're now they're moving through other parts of the. >> federal government. >> so let's talk. >> about the domestic politics of this. >> we have seen some democrats rally outside the building, denounce. >> some of the cuts there. >> you know. >> is that what lessons have they learned. >> in. >> your conversations with. >> democrats as to. >> how to approach not just this with. >> usaid. >> but those potential. further gutting of other agencies? how are they going to handle politically? >> i think that they're. >> torn. >> jonathan, politically, as to what to do, because i think. >> that, you know. >> there's an. >> impulse after. >> the last election, let's just. focus on.

>> the economy. >> and trump. >> is. >> lowering egg. >> prices or he's not, and. >> we're. >> going to jam him when. costs don't go down. eyes on. >> the prize. >> there's also a. >> school of thought of holy. you know what? he's dismantling. >> the federal. >> government and actually. >> trying to run a. >> sort of extraconstitutional. >> regime here. >> we can't stand by and focus. >> only on the price at the grocery store when our democracy is. >> at peril. and i don't think. >> that. they've resolved yet how to approach trump, because there is no easy. >> answer and fairness. >> i think that. >> they're wrestling. >> with that to this. >> very second. jonathan. yeah. and, you know, i had i had said the democrats learned all the wrong lessons by saying, well, let's not defend foreign aid. that said, i mean, it is it is unpopular. foreign aid is i know it's a politician. you know, we balance the budget four years in a row. i still have people screaming at me at town hall meetings about voting for foreign aid. it is it is just not not popular in part, i

think, because people don't get out in front of and explain what you all have explained here today. >> it's easier to explain. joe is. >> abandoning us patriots who. are serving the country. >> abroad and. >> leaving them. >> out in the cold. that's a little easier case to. >> make. >> if you're democrats. >> are trying to rationalize x number. >> of dollars. for a country that people haven't. >> heard of, you know. all right. politico's jonathan martin and new york times writer at large elisabeth bumiller, such important pieces. thank you both for being with us. and thank you for the salute. ginger rogers with us. now let's bring in republican congressman mike lawler. he is from new york. he's a member of the financial services and foreign affairs committees. he's also a chair of the middle east and north africa subcommittee. so, governor, that's what we'd call you in the south if you were thinking about running for governor. governor, i want to get to get to your your your hearing today with fed chairman powell. let's start

first, though, with you, with usaid. we were just talking about it. i support pepfar. i support these programs because. >> they. >> save so many lives. but i also supported strategically as an old cold war conservative. i understand that that boots on the ground are important, but also humanitarian aid is important. it's also important what intel we pick up, whether it's from the ivory coast or sudan or other parts of, of africa and other continents. i'm curious what your thought is on how usaid should be approached. well. >> joe, we're actually going to have a hearing tomorrow on usaid in the foreign. affairs committee, and a lot of. >> these. >> issues will be discussed. when you look at a program like pepfar, i have been very strong in my support for it. 60% of pepfar program is administered by usaid. secretary rubio did grant a waiver for life saving

programs like pepfar, which obviously is critical on the continent of africa, saving tens of millions of lives over the last two decades. probably one of the best soft power accomplishments of the united states foreign aid program ever. but then you look at some of the expenditures by usaid. for instance, i uncovered over $3 million to a rap artist in gaza producing anti-israel, anti-semitic songs. is that the best use of american taxpayer dollars? i would venture not. and so one of the things that we're going to do in this hearing tomorrow, obviously, is go through what actually is the role of usaid. what should they be focused on? and frankly, what have they been focused on? and i think one of the things to keep in mind, joe, in other parts of

the world, some of the woke ideology that usaid was promoting is not welcomed by the people or the governments, and it actually can be counterproductive to what we're trying to accomplish. so i think. >> one of the things we need to recognize, that's what you guys do, though. like that's what you go through in subcommittees. that's it's not like some, some radical berkeley professor said, hey, let's give $3 billion to a rap artist in gaza who's going to do anti-american and anti-israel. no. >> the. the biden. >> administration did. that's part of the problem here. >> but you. >> have congress, though, who funds usaid. so shouldn't you all be making these calls instead of elon musk? but but, joe. >> one thing i will tell you. and you as a former member of congress, certainly understand this in the separation of powers, sometimes when you're asking for information, the executive branch doesn't want to share it. we had numerous hearings last congress. we sent numerous letters to samantha

power to usaid requesting more information. and for obvious reasons, they didn't want to provide it. what you've seen in the last few weeks, frankly, while some people may object, you certainly understand, joe. oftentimes, government moves at a glacial pace. and so, yes, we have seen things move very rapidly. but oftentimes when you're making a, you know, an omelet, you've got to crack a few eggs. and i do think that unfortunately is necessary as we're actually trying to uncover what these agencies and departments are doing, what they're spending money on. and is it in keeping with the united states mission? there's no question humanitarian aid soft power is critical to our foreign policy. and when it comes to issues like pepfar, when it comes to issues like feeding the hungry, yes, that is a primary mission. but that's not exactly what usaid has been focused on.

>> well, i mean, again, there are programs that, as you said, have not been the sort of programs that i think most americans would support. we both agree on that, i will say, though, the pace they have moved at has been so rapid, they don't know what eggs they're breaking, and we don't know what the consequences are going to be. you know, one, two, 4 or 5 years from now. i'm glad you guys are having a hearing on this. i certainly hope it, because i think we can all agree that that bureaucracy needs to be reformed. it can be trimmed, it can be made more effective, it can be updated, but it needs to i would think you would agree. it needs to be transparent. i would feel very comfortable with subcommittees and committees in congress going through each one of these line items. this doesn't make sense. let's vote on it. put it on the record. >> and joe, by the way, that's that's what. >> we're doing. >> if you look at the way brian

mast, our new chairman of the foreign affairs committee, has structured it, we are looking to do a state department report the first time in over 20 years. i have jurisdiction over m branch and two parts of p branch, and we are going to be going line by line, department by department within the state department to determine how they are spending their money, what programs are working, what is not. that is the function of congress. that is the way we should be doing this. it hasn't been done in 20 years. that is what we are getting about. the work of doing tomorrow is a first step in that process. >> well, and i think most americans would support that. i think a lot of americans are concerned. i will tell you, i'm concerned again that that is sort of a shoot first ask questions later approach. in these first couple of weeks of the administration. so transparency is great having committees handle it on the hill. great. i hope that happens. one other thing. one final thing too, and i'm sure

you'll agree with me on this. jonathan martin, great reporter for politico, j mart was talking about the patriots overseas that are are expanding soft power while china is trying trying to influence governments all across the world are people that are out there, are doing it in part by helping push pepfar programs, helping in other ways. i know you've seen like i've seen one story after another of these, these these american patriots who got notice that, you know, basically pack up, come home. it's not that simple. a lot of them are in sort of dangerous zones. can can you all talk tomorrow and can you assure that these patriots overseas will be treated well, treated respectfully, be treated, treated in a way that guarantees their safety and their mission? >> look, there's no question we have people who have been

dedicated to advancing the american interests abroad and making sure that we are not only engaged in soft power and diplomacy, but obviously working to advance critical life saving care around the globe. and certainly we want to make sure that they are protected. one thing i would say here, and this is part of the reason why usaid kind of came in the crosshairs. there was a 90 day freeze put in place on foreign aid. secretary rubio granted a waiver for life saving care. and some of these folks at usaid disregarded the freeze and decided they knew better. the fact is, there is a new administration, whether people like it or not, they have put in place a freeze to review some of these foreign aid programs. and some of the folks at usaid disregarded the order. >> well, that. >> is. >> why usaid came in the

crosshairs. >> so quickly. so, so, congressman, so they obviously need to follow directives. >> if there's. >> a. >> freeze just so, so people can take a look at programs, what works, what doesn't work. i think most americans, again, would think that's reasonable. but also, i hope you all will guarantee that those exceptions that secretary rubio have put in place for life saving missions, for health, for, for, for food, for, for well-being, that that's that, that's being administered that that money is getting there. will you all do that? >> no question. i've already been engaged on this very issue. because, look, a program like pepfar is critically important. and if those life saving drugs are missed, even for two days, you know, exponentially, obviously there is there is a consequence. we're talking about, by the way, when it comes

to a life saving aids drug, $80 per year per patient, it's extraordinary. >> isn't it? >> it's amazing what has happened over 20 years. you know, george w bush put this program in place. i think it's one of the most consequential programs. certainly a big achievement in his legacy over 20 years. but we've saved tens of millions of lives through pepfar. so there's no question when you talk about critical life saving care, yes, we need to make sure that. >> gets done. >> all right. we're going to take you now from the continent of africa to the borough of manhattan. and we're going to ask you about congestion pricing. it's been in effect now for some time. it seems to have had an impact. well, maybe 18, 20% of traffic is down in the city. you can actually move around in the city pretty

effectively. but what what's your are you still opposed to congestion pricing? me skeptical, but you know, showcasing numbers in the month of january when not as many people come into new york and there aren't as many activities and events? i don't really view this as a success thus far. number one. number two, the fact is, again, this was nothing more than a cash grab. the mta is the worst run authority in america. and by the way, janno lieber, who you had on the day after i last appeared and started attacking me, saying that i never delivered money for the mta. the fact is, the federal government gives billions of dollars to the mta directly. but janno lieber just the other day was quoted saying that rail service west of hudson, where i live, sucks. so he admits and acknowledges that

the mta has failed to deliver adequate service to those commuters in the suburbs. and that is part of the reason why they have to drive. and so it's laughable for him or anyone else to say, oh, get over it, you know, take a train. the fact is that rail service from west of hudson, we don't have a one seat ride. they've cut express rail service and we pay $50 million more in taxes every year to the mta than services we receive. and that's before the $2,500 annual payment, just for the privilege of driving to work. so to me, this is a scam. the mta carries debt greater than 80% of the states in the country. joe, 80% of the states in the country. the mta has more debt than that is unsustainable. they need a complete overhaul. and just throwing more money at this is not going to fix it. i have spoken to president trump on multiple occasions now about

killing this program through the department of transportation and the federal highway administration, and i'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that that gets done. >> we'll follow. >> up to that. >> congressman. i mean, the traditionally. republicans like to leave state decisions and state decisions to. >> the. >> state and city local jurisdictions. why would the why is it appropriate for. >> the president of united. >> states to step in here to make that to nix this program? >> because for the program to take effect, it required federal approval. president trump blocked it in his first administration. joe biden approved it in his administration. the federal highway administration had to approve this type of tolling program within the jurisdiction of the city. so i believe it's fully within the purview of the federal government to revoke those approvals, especially because they did not do a full environmental review. and if you look at the mta's own data that they've released over the last month, a lot of the traffic has moved to other parts of the city. >> and lastly, congressman.

>> the hearing. >> as we teased earlier with. the chairman, powell, what. >> do you hope to. >> hear. >> from him today? >> what are your thoughts about. >> the continued independence of the fed from the white house? we know president trump previously. had suggested he feels like. >> the oval office should have a little more of a say as to how it conducts itself. >> well, when you look at how the fed handled inflation, they didn't really believe it was a problem at first. they were late to raise interest rates and then they rapidly raised interest rates. they spent the last year plus wasting time on the basel three endgame, which is, for all intents and purposes, dead at this point. you know, i think the fed has a lot to answer for. and frankly, i'm someone who fundamentally believes, like all these other agencies, the fed needs a full and complete audit. so, you know, i have a lot of questions for jerome powell. but moving forward, the question is how they plan to handle, you

know, high cost of living. i had a very extensive conversation with jerome powell over a year ago at a breakfast in which we talked about, for instance, the high cost of housing and how that impacts, you know, inflation and everything else. so there's a lot of work ahead. and certainly i'm curious to hear his answers. with a new administration in place, how he plans to handle cost and inflation and where they are with respect to interest rates and having wasted so much time on the basel three endgame. what their plan is moving forward? >> well, congressman, let me ask you about interest rates. obviously interest mortgage rates are too high right now. i say too high. too high for a lot of people to afford a new home. at the same time, if he takes interest rates down right now, with the economy seemingly still sort of teetering on, on

becoming too hot again, becoming inflationary again, that would obviously lead to long term interest rate problems. do you support interest rates being lowered right now, or do you think the fed has it about right? >> i think they can come down a bit. obviously you don't want to do what he did in the reverse. you don't want to rapidly bring everything down. but we have to reduce the overall cost of living. obviously, the cost of a mortgage is insane. and it's not just mortgage costs, which in my district are up over $1,000 a month over the last, you know, two years, over $12,000 a year, which is insane. but obviously it's the overall cost of living. and part of the way that we're dealing with this is both through monetary policy and fiscal policy. and one of the things that we're looking to do through the reconciliation process is a reduce overall

government spending to help bring down inflation, be increased domestic production of energy that is critical for the cost of everything, the cost of manufacturing, cost of transportation, cost of goods. so this is obviously you have to take a holistic approach to this. it's not just one thing or the other, but i do think interest rates do need to come down because the overall cost of living in part is impacted by housing costs. so mortgage interest rates need to come down. 7% is unsustainable for most americans. >> all right. republican congressman mike lawler of new york, as always, thanks so much for being with us. >> thanks, joe. >> eddie, before i let you go, you talked before a long time in that rambling, that rambling fantasy football slash politics segment that we had. you talked about a book that you're working on. tell us about it. >> yeah. >> i'm working on a book about the 250th anniversary of the. nation that's coming up. and what i'm doing is i'm looking at

each anniversary, 1876, 1926, 1976. and each of these moments, the contradiction, the continuous loop. >> the. >> the compromise that was present at the beginning of the nation evidences itself. think about the tumultuous 1876 year. think about what was going on in 26 that that that moment in harvard, in boston, downtown with the american flag as people are trying to bus their kids in 1876. and so i'm trying to think through, what does it mean in 2026 that we now face we have donald trump in the white house, and we're facing all of. >> this. >> shall we say, detritus. >> and when, when are you going to explain to all of us what that word means? one and two? when does when should we expect the book to be released? >> it's going to. >> be hopefully in 2026. my editor just i just heard my editor, like alex, scream in your ear, but we're working on it now. >> we're hopefully. >> hopefully in february 2026. >> all right. good luck. we're going to sneak in a quick 92nd break. up next, the big news

from overnight, an american who was wrongfully detained in russia for more than three years is back on u.s. soil. this morning. we're going to talk about the behind the scenes work to bring him home. plus, we're going to have the latest on the fragile ceasefire deal in gaza. is hamas still to release of more hostages? and we'll show you what president trump said about the future of palestinians while hosting the king of jordan at the white house yesterday at the white house yesterday morning. joe, back i my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis held me back. but now with skyrizi, i'm all in. thanks to skyrizi, i saw dramatically clearer skin. and many even achieved 100% clear skin. don't use if allergic. serious allergic reactions, increased infections, or lowered ability to fight them may occur. before treatment, get checked for infections and tb. tell your doctor about any flu-like symptoms, or vaccines. with skyrizi, nothing on my skin means everything. ♪nothing is everything♪ ask your dermatologist about skyrizi today.

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government efficiency more power, according to a fact sheet provided by the white house. the order is direct agency heads across government to work with doge to take multiple steps to cut the size of the federal workforce. those steps include only hiring employees for every four that leave one employee, one employee establishing new criteria for hiring. giving a doge team led hiring approval over new career appointment hires, and preparing the agency for large scale reductions in the workforce. by figuring out which components or agencies themselves may be eliminated or combined. meanwhile, musk answered questions from the media yesterday for the first time about the work of the doge team. musk stood next to president trump at the resolute desk, trying to defend the work that his staffers have done, which has been criticized for operating with unchecked power. musk railed against bureaucracy,

calling it unelected, forth, unconstitutional branch of government. he was also pressed multiple times on his conflicts of interest connected to the massive government contracts his companies receive. >> at a high. >> level, you. >> say, what is the goal. of doge or. >> and i think a significant part of this presidency is to. restore democracy. this may seem seem like, well, we're in a democracy rule of the bureaucrat. >> if the bureaucracy. >> is in charge. and then what meaning does democracy actually have? if the people cannot vote and have their will be decided by their elected representatives in the form of the president and the senate and the house, then we don't live in a democracy. if we live in a bureaucracy. >> but if. >> there is a conflict of interest when it comes to you yourself, for instance, you've received billions of dollars in federal contracts when it comes to the pentagon, for instance, which the president, i know has directed you to look into.

>> are you. >> policing yourself in that? is there any sort. >> of accountability check and balance in place that would provide any transparency for. >> the american people? >> well, all of our actions. >> are are fully public. >> so if you see anything you say like, wait a second. hey, you know that doesn't that. >> seems. >> like maybe that's, you. >> know, there's a conflict there. it's not. >> like people are going to be shy. >> about saying that. they'll say it immediately. >> mr. musk, you said on x that an example of the fraud that you have cited was $50 million of condoms was sent to gaza, but after fact, check this it apparently gaza in mozambique and the program was to protect them against hiv. so can you correct the statements? it wasn't sent to hamas, actually, it was sent to mozambique, which makes sense why condoms were sent there. and how can we make sure that all the statements that you said were correct, so we can trust what you're saying? >> well, first of. >> all, some of the things that. >> i say will be. >> incorrect and should be

corrected. so nobody's going to bat a thousand. i mean, any, you know, we. >> will make mistakes, but we'll act quickly. >> to correct any mistakes. >> so. >> you know, if the i'm not sure we should be sending. >> $50 million. >> worth of condoms to anywhere. frankly. >> i think. >> that there are some worthy. >> things, but. >> but overall, if you. >> say, what is the. >> bang for the buck? i would say it was not. >> very good. >> and there was far too much of what usaid was doing was influencing, influencing elections in ways that i think were dubious and do not stand the light. >> of day. >> elon musk gave one example of a possible reform to the bureaucratic process. he explained how antiquated record keeping in a limestone mine is preventing government workers from retiring. >> this is actually, i think, a. >> great anecdote, because. >> we're told that the most number of people that could retire, possibly in a month is 10,000. we're like, well, why? why is that? >> well. >> because all.

>> the all the retirement paperwork is manual. >> on paper, it's. >> manually calculated then written down on a piece of paper. >> then it goes. >> down a mine. >> and i'm like, what. >> do you mean, a mine? >> like, yeah. >> there's a limestone mine where we store all. the retirement paperwork that. >> and you look at a picture of this mine. >> we'll post some pictures afterwards. and this. >> this mine. >> looks like something out of the 50s because. >> it was. >> started in 1955. >> so it looks like it's like a time warp. >> and then the speed. then the limiting. >> factor is the speed at which the mine shaft. >> elevator can. >> move, determines. >> how many people can retire from the federal federal government. >> and the elevator breaks down sometimes. and then. >> you can't. >> nobody can retire. >> so the mine musk was describing is a real thing. david fahrenthold of the washington post covered it back in 2014, calling it the, quote, sinkhole of bureaucracy. so david ignatius, first of all, my

chief complaint since doge began has been the lack of transparency. i do think it's good that elon musk went before reporters and answered questions. that's number one. number two, let's just admit a few things here before we talk about conflicts of interest. for people that are watching at home going, well, why are they doing this? how could they do this? how could the american people go along with this? most americans, a majority of americans, think that the government is inefficient. most presidents, from ronald reagan to bill clinton, think that the bureaucracy is inefficient and antiquated, and they've tried to update it. and, you know, al gore famously going on david letterman to try to show his examples. i remember at one point, at the reagan administration, somebody saying to the washington post, you know, why did we even come here? you can't you can't do anything. you can't update anything. so this is something that that

we've heard administrations complain about for 40 years. the biggest concern, of course, has been one, whether they were doing it in a constitutional, lawful manner. and two, the lack of transparency. i'm curious what you saw yesterday in this press conference by elon musk, and we will get to the conflicts of interest, which obviously is a is a glaring red light there. but but on these other issues, what what were your thoughts about the press conference? >> so the. scene itself was bizarre. you had musk in his maga hat dressed all in black, a long coat that looked almost like a cape with his young son x climbing all over him, climbing on the floor. president trump, often looking uncomfortable at the scene. so the scene itself was bizarre. the point you make that there is a fundamental problem here of a federal

government bureaucracy that is too bureaucratic, too big, ill managed. every every american has experience of that. and the idea of trying to make the government more efficient, reduce the level of spending, improve the technology. that's one of the worst things about how the federal government works. it works off of antiquated computers. that's an idea that people can support. but we're a country of laws. you can't just do things by edict. this is a problem that, as you said, al gore and so many other people tried hard to address. but you have to do it carefully because it's a pain in the neck. you'd love to just smash through. but we're a country of laws. that's the way we were designed. and i think that's the part of the musk rush to change everything in sight. that's most worrying, it seems to me, to be being conducted without regard for our legal procedures. we're going to have some big court

tests coming up in the coming weeks that are going to be decisive in showing what are the limits of what trump is trying to do, but should there should there be efforts to reform the federal government make it more efficient? absolutely. no question about it. >> absolutely. and if you talk, i mean, there's some we interviewed the secretary of defense a few years ago, talking about computers in the 1980s. so again, in theory, this would be wonderful. in theory, this is wonderful. whether you're talking about the pentagon, whether you're talking about the va, whether you're talking about social security, anybody that has tried to deal with the irs and how antiquated and i may say to for republicans understaffed, all these agencies are, they're not going to tackle the $36 trillion debt by doing all the things they want to do and cutting some employees here and there. so, yeah, this is this is, i think, a concept that many

americans would support. a lot of independents would support. the question, though, is though, is it being done legally? is it being done constitutionally and is it being done transparently? i think elon musk getting before reporters, i actually think as much as possible since his people are running through these government agencies. i think that is that is extraordinarily important. and it's also, of course, most important that the letter of the law is followed, that the constitution is followed, that actually congress cares about its article one powers. coming up, a look at some of the other stories making headlines, including a surprise concert by one of the greatest songwriters of all time. now, paul mccartney shocked a group of lucky fans last night here in of lucky fans last night here in new york city, straight ahead on this is steve. steve takes voquezna. this is steve's stomach, where voquezna can kick some acid, heal erosive esophagitis, also known as erosive gerd, and relieve related heartburn.

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pregnancy and after surgery. cole's increases water in the stool, making it softer so it's easier to go. no harsh laxatives, cramping or straining cole's. >> donald trump is defending the mass firings of federal watchdogs. >> our federal government. >> now can discriminate. >> against the. >> citizens of the country. >> we are all watching. >> and waiting. >> to see. >> who is going to hold the line. >> don't miss the weekends, saturday, and sunday mornings. >> at 8:00. >> on msnbc. >> where do people find the. strength to speak truth to power? right now? you've got an administration. you've got a president ready, willing and able to take legal action against people doing their jobs. >> i think in. >> 2025. >> politically engaged. people can. >> find the strength to make their voices. >> heard and. >> try to help create a climate of. >> opinion that. >> enables these institutions, these people who run these institutions, to do the right thing. >> well. >> jon meacham, you are certainly my light. tonight. >> welcome back. time now for a look at. some of the other stories making. >> headlines this morning. >> a california teenager.

>> was sentenced. >> to four. >> years in federal prison. for calling. >> in hundreds. >> of. >> shooting and bombing threats. >> alan fillion. >> targeted religious. >> institutions, high schools, colleges. >> and government. >> officials with the fake reports. prosecutors say these hoaxes, called putting the public. >> in danger. >> and wasted. >> valuable resources swatting there. meanwhile, snow. >> and freezing. >> rain pummeled. >> the mid-atlantic overnight. >> while california now prepares for likely flooding. >> good lord. >> sleet and freezing rain. >> are expected to. >> continue there today. parts of virginia. >> could get. >> nearly 14in of snow. >> heavy rain. >> out west, meanwhile, has southern california bracing for potential. >> flooding in. >> areas devastated by. >> recent wildfires. we're also seeing the snow there. >> in kansas city. >> missouri, and. >> here in. >> new york. legendary singer songwriter paul mccartney held a surprise concert yesterday. the former beatles member announced

the show online. >> at noon yesterday. >> it was going to be held later that evening. tickets were. >> priced at. >> a steal, just $50, but they were available in person only. >> available in person on a first. >> come, first serve basis. >> after the announcement. >> a line. >> quickly wrapped. >> around the block and the tickets, as. >> you might imagine. >> sold out within the hour. >> mccartney's 100. >> minute set list. >> included hits. >> like a hard day's night, let it be. >> jet. >> and more. >> for the intimate 500. >> person audience. >> joe scarborough. >> i assume you have a little fomo. for this show. wow. >> yeah. pretty great. that's amazing. i mean, yeah, that doesn't happen much. >> no, it does not. >> in fact, that doesn't happen. never happens. paul mccartney in a. >> club setting. great stuff. >> coming up in a sunday interview, president trump said this about the future of ukraine. >> and, you know, they may make a deal. they may not make a deal. they may be russian someday, or they may not be russian someday. but we're going to have all this money in there. and i say, i want it back. >> ukraine, of course, has no

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blueprint with jen psaki. listen now. stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the msnbc daily newsletter. each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust. video highlights from your favorite shows. >> i do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here. >> previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. get the best of msnbc all in one place. sign up for msnbc daily at msnbc. com. >> welcome back. >> a new. >> critically acclaimed film is showing the devastating consequences of brazil's former military dictatorship. that lasted nearly two decades. i'm still here focuses on the family of a former brazilian congressman who was kidnaped. and is based on the memoir of that lawmaker's son. the film has earned three academy award nominations, including for best

picture and. for actress in a leading role for our next guest. >> takes a scary. >> vibora. vibora. >> and joining us now, the star of i'm still here, oscar nominated actress fernanda torres. she also won the golden globe last month for her role in the film. so let's. >> start by saying thank you. >> for being here and also congratulations. >> thank you. thank you for. >> having me. oh. >> it's our it is. >> our pleasure on. >> the. >> congrats on the award. the nomination. >> let's just start there. what is that moment. >> been like.

>> to receive. >> such acclaim and recognition for. >> this role? >> it's like. >> a miracle. >> because, you know, it's a film spoken in. >> portuguese. >> a small. >> film compared. >> to the other ones. >> and i think it says a. >> lot about. >> the power. >> of this. >> story and. how people. >> as soon. >> as. they see it, they watch it, they get. >> like touched by this family, this woman. >> and the story. >> so that connection. >> that you're speaking about. talk. what was it like for you? what was that connection for you? what drew you to the role? >> how could you refuse? >> i mean, it was walter salles. >> the same director. >> that i did foreign land, that. >> he did. >> central. >> station with my mother. and then. now again. >> and this. >> story, because. >> it's the story. >> of the kidnaping. >> and the torture. >> of a congressman. in the 70s. >> that were never spoken about. >> it was like a pale. >> photograph that were. >> being forgotten. and then suddenly his son writes the story, and it's a. book which

the. >> film is based on. >> that where this boy discovered that the great. >> heroine of. the family. >> is. >> his mother. >> and it's. >> a. >> story about endurance, about. >> hope, and. >> a very. >> special story for. >> the crisis we. >> are dealing nowadays. >> i think. >> so that's why the film got. >> so much attention. yeah, the book obviously had a lot of impact. the movie now is, well, what are you hearing as people come to you from. >> from, from. >> brazil who are saying the how this film has made them feel seeing this play out on screen? >> oh. >> in brazil it. >> was a phenomenon. >> because people. >> will start to go to the movie. >> theaters like they. >> were. >> not going. >> anymore, and people. >> from the. >> left wing, right wing, center. >> and they. >> all had. >> because as the film is centered in the. >> family everybody can. >> relate to, if you are. >> young. >> you can relate to the children. >> if you. >> are a. >> mother. >> if you are. >> a father, and it's a.

>> film very important now because. >> young people are being. >> introduced to, what. does it. >> really mean to live in. >> a dictatorship. >> through this film? so it was a film that. >> connected, i. >> think. >> free brazil. >> from the binary. ideology that all you are. >> in. >> the. side or the other one. and they bond together. >> and now with. >> what is happening with the movie. >> people are just. going nuts. >> and the oscars is going. >> to happen. >> happen during carnival. >> so it's. so you mentioned your mother. yeah. and we should note that you're the second. brazilian actress to be nominated for academy award in the category of leading leading actress. the other? your mother. >> it's my mother. >> who is, you know, some years ago. talk to. >> us. >> about what is that like to have that achievement for your family? it's again unbelievable. >> i would never thought it. >> would happen. >> and again, the honesty, the character portrait. >> in the.

>> in the movie, she raised marcelo rubens paiva. who is this writer. >> who. >> wrote this. >> book. >> a. >> very famous writer in brazil. and my mother raised me. so the film has also this symbology about transmission, about. art enduring through time. so of course, for me and my mother, it's so beautiful. >> i mean. >> and in brazil we have this phenomenon that is fernanda. >> me. >> fernanda. my mother, and the fernandes. fernanda montenegro, your your mother. and also by receiving these nominations in films done by the same director. >> yeah. >> can you imagine? just. this is such a beautiful tale. >> that i'm. >> really happy, grateful. >> and i don't know. well, the movie is. certainly breaking through, and the academy awards are coming up soon. the new movie, i'm still here is indeed currently playing nationwide in the us and canada. academy award nominated actress. fernanda torres. thank you and good luck next month. >> thank you very much. >> we really appreciate you being here. coming up next here

on morning joe. >> the ceasefire. >> in gaza appears to be on the brink of collapse. >> we'll bring you. >> the latest from the middle east as both sides accuse the other of violating the fragile deal. what it means for the hostages still being held by hamas. plus, our next guest. serves on what's being called the most chaotic new committee on capitol hill. congressman robert garcia joins us to preview today's hearing, led by congresswoman marjorie taylor greene. that conversation straight ahead here on morning joe. >> one year. >> is a shot away. it's just a shot away. >> one year. >> is nothing to. >> shy away. >> shy away. >> it's time to shy away. (♪♪) whenever heartburn strikes, get fast relief with tums.

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>> it's great for fans. >> because there's no work the. >> next day, but. >> bad because. >> they can't see a. >> judge till monday. >> the jokes, in fact, do write. >> themselves when it comes to a philadelphia championship parade. >> you heard them say it, though. >> it's scheduled for friday. let's hope the weather is good, because a fast moving string of severe storms are sweeping across several states this morning, bringing heavy snow, ice and freezing rain. nbc news correspondent adrien brody. has the latest. >> overnight, a severe winter storm unleashing its wrath. several inches of fast falling snow dumping all over the east coast with heavy snow and ice

creating terrifying driving conditions. cars staring out of control over bridges and sliding off the road into ditches, traffic brought to a standstill on some major highways after crashes, closed down interstates for hours, the wintry mess closing schools from kentucky to philadelphia, and thousands of flights and travel plans already delayed or canceled city to city snow plows working around the clock. >> everybody out there be safe. no, there's more weather coming. >> it's flooding. >> it's underneath. >> our porch. >> beyond the snow and ice. heavy rain causing flooding in some areas. severe storms even spawning a likely tornado in florida, causing multiple injuries and destroying property. while this long stretch of winter weather is exhausting for some others, finding the joy like these, college students at virginia

tech coming. together for a massive snowball fight. >> that part looks fun. >> nbc's adrien brody's with that report. >> time now. >> for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. >> longtime trump ally steve. >> bannon pleaded guilty yesterday to a. single felony. >> count. >> of defrauding donors who gave money for the construction of a wall at the nation's southern border. the 71 year old must stay out of trouble for three years or face additional punishment, potentially including jail time. bannon was charged with falsely promising. donors that the money given to the we build the wall organization would go toward erecting a wall. >> instead. prosecutors allege the. >> money was used to. enrich bannon. >> and others. >> involved in the project. the campaign raised over $20 million. elsewhere, a pair of bills introduced in the texas. >> state senate. >> would require the ten commandments to be displayed in public schools and allow time

for students to read the bible. republican state senator phil king is the lead author of one of the bills, and he said, if our students. don't know the ten commandments, they will never understand the foundation. >> for much of. >> american history and law. a separate bill would permit school districts to adopt policies allowing for a period of prayer and the reading of scripture or other religious texts with parental consent. and several brands of canned tuna sold at stores, including. trader joe's, costco, and h-e-b have been recalled because of botulism concerns. the tuna was canned by try union seafoods that's based in southern california. the company says that lids on the easy open cans may have a defect that could cause the products to be contaminated with bacteria. affected cans have retail codes listed in the recall notice, and those best buy dates in the

years 2027 and 2028. now, as we come up on the top of the hour, we return to our top story. american teacher mark fogel is free this morning after three and. >> a. >> half years in russian detention. joining us now from dubai. is nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons. keir good to see you this morning. so the circumstances of this release are a little murky. president trump sort of decidedly declined to offer details yesterday. what more have we learned about the negotiation that brought fogel home? >> well. >> very little at this point, jonathan. we know, of course, the history. we know that the biden administration, biden administration officials, were working to try to free him. >> but. >> weren't able. >> to achieve that. marc fogel was convicted by russia of carrying medical marijuana. he was not included in multiple prisoner exchanges. and now, this morning, he's finally home.

this morning, marc fogel free. >> i feel. >> like the luckiest. >> man on earth. >> right now. >> after three and a half years wrongfully detained, the us. >> said in a. >> russian prison. >> the american. >> teacher calling president trump. >> a hero. >> and thanking supporters. >> my family has been a force. i thank my 95 year. >> old mother. >> is probably the. most dynamic 95 year old on earth right now. >> his mother. >> talking to nbc. >> news overnight. >> it just didn't. >> quite sink. >> in right away. >> fogel flown. >> out on a private jet from moscow belonging to president. >> trump's middle. >> east envoy. >> punching the air as he. >> stepped off the plane this morning. >> the kremlin. >> says it's an exchange for a russian prisoner. earlier. >> the president. >> not sharing details. >> very fair, very, very fair, very reasonable. not like deals you've seen over the years and where somebody else is being released tomorrow.

>> there are americans still held in. >> russia and other. >> countries, and the timing is stunning. >> with negotiations. >> to. >> end the war in ukraine. >> on. >> the horizon and president putin. insisting he'll talk but. >> not compromise. >> and it comes with the gaza. >> ceasefire in. >> crisis. >> hamas refusing to release. >> more hostages, saying. israel is not. >> meeting the terms. >> of the deal. israel saying. >> unless hostages. >> are released. >> it will. >> resume fighting. >> in gaza. >> earlier. president trump. with the king. >> of jordan. >> again vowing. >> to take. >> over gaza, an idea the king does not support. >> we're going to take it. we're going to hold it. we're going to cherish it. >> the king. >> defuzing the tension. >> pledging to help. >> 2000 gazan children. >> with cancer. >> it's music to my ears. >> and jonathan, look, president. >> trump now faces multiple burning foreign policy challenges from the middle. >> east. >> to china. both the white house and the kremlin. >> are saying. >> this morning. that their deal

will build good faith. but negotiating a. >> peace that. >> ukraine and russia will accept remains one of many tough hurdles globally for the trump administration at this stage. jonathan. >> yeah, it seems, at least at. >> this moment, the. >> ukrainians cut out of this process there with the russians. keir, want to follow up real quick on the king of jordan? yes. he was very. diplomatic in the oval office with president trump. but later put out a statement reiterating that. >> the idea of the. >> u.s. occupying gaza and displacing palestinians is a complete nonstarter for him and for so many in the region. you're there in dubai. talk to us more about how. this idea that trump floated a week ago and has yet to back off is resonating. >> yeah. >> i mean, look, more than just. >> so many. >> i mean, basically every arab country in the region is opposed. >> to the idea of. >> having gaza. cleared out. >> as president. >> trump has described.

>> it, in. >> order to rebuild gaza. >> but then president trump saying that. there's no guarantee of a right of return, that every country from saudi arabia. >> to here in the united arab. >> emirates to jordan, as you mentioned, to egypt and egypt's president. >> sisi is set. >> to meet. >> with president. >> trump soon, and. >> he's going to be. >> looking at. that press conference. >> if you like, or. >> you know, the gaggle there with president trump and, and. >> the. >> king of jordan and thinking, do i want to sit there and have that. >> have that. >> play out for me, too? one of the challenges for egypt and. >> jordan is they. >> are both countries that are very reliant on funding from the united states as part of their economy, frankly. they are, of course, also important allies for the united states. so. >> yeah, it's. >> a it's a real challenge for every. >> side, for the trump administration, but also.

>> for these countries and. >> of course, ultimately. >> for the palestinians. who millions of them at this stage are faced. >> with a situation. >> where they. >> don't simply don't know. >> what future is ahead. >> all right. nbc's keir simmons, thank you so much. and you know, one of the challenges, john, is the fact that for jordan, they already have so many palestinians there that of course, like egypt, like jordan, like other arab countries, there would be concern about their countries absorbing palestinians. so many palestinians in their countries, that's what two just be politically devastating for any of these arab countries to come out and say that they opposed a two state solution, that they supported the expulsion of palestinians from their

homeland, as they've seen it, as their homeland for thousands of years. and their major neighbors see it as their homeland. so if you are, whether you're the king or whether you're, you know, whether you're general sisi, you're you're. you're going to be put in an extraordinarily difficult place here because they can't afford to do what donald trump is telling them to do for purposes of their own domestic politics. >> and be able. >> to retain power. >> and retain. >> power. >> potentially, you know, diplomat in the region told me over the weekend. again, the word remains nonstarter. like this cannot happen. and there have been some talk that perhaps this is trump's opening gambit, that he's he's taking out a really extreme position and it will negotiate his way back. we'll see to this point that hasn't occurred. but anything that does come of this will have to require the u.s. backing a two state solution in order for any of these arab nations to get on board, and that will require requiring prime minister israel

to back it as well, something he has not done in any sort of full throated fashion in quite some time. >> people close to donald trump say this is just what he does. read the art of the deal. he completely resets negotiations. and so then suddenly people are coming to him saying, we'll take x number of palestinians or we'll take this many 2000 palestinian children who need. and so we'll see it. it certainly seems to be an opening bid that that, again, is a nonstarter for all the arab countries in the region. but yeah, we'll we'll see where we go from there. let's bring in now former u.s. ambassador to russia michael mcfaul. he's director of the institute of international studies at stanford and an nbc news international affairs analyst. mister ambassador, thank you so much for being with us. let's let's talk about the release of marc fogel from russia, a very personal, a very personal moving

moment for you. tell us why. >> well. >> it was a fantastic day. >> i want to thank president trump and his administration for getting marc out of jail. he never should have. been in jail in russia in the first place. i know marc, he was a teacher when i was u.s. ambassador. he was the teacher of my oldest son. he was an inspirational teacher to my son. he wrote letters of recommendation for my son to go to college because he had such a big impact on him, and he was a huge contributor to our community. joe. i mean, you know, when you're living overseas, americans, diplomats, soldiers, you rely on people like marc fogel to be part of your community, to teach your kids to go to basketball games together. as we watch our kids play together, to watch us beat the russians in hockey during the sochi olympics at at uncle sam's bar in the embassy. that's the kind of guy marc was and so and is. and i'm just thrilled that he's free today. i'm thrilled that he's back in the united states of america.

>> wrongfully detained for so many years. what does his release say to you about the current state of u.s. russian relations? perhaps the trump putin relationship and what what insight that might give us to the possibility of an ending to the ukrainian russian war. >> well, as you were talking about before, we don't know what the trade was here. we don't know those details yet. i do think if you look at the russian press, putin is trying to signal that he wants a different kind of relationship with the united states. he had a different kind of relationship with president trump. and maybe that's the beginning of a conversation, a serious negotiation about ukraine. having said that, i want to be crystal clear. i'm not optimistic at all that this is the beginning of a breakthrough on the negotiations. putin thinks that time is on his side. he thinks

president trump and his administration are going to say some things, throw out some ideas, just like the ideas that you were talking about, rather exotic ideas. and then he's going to get bored because it's not going to be easy to get putin to move, and then we're going to disengage, and then putin is going to achieve his military objectives. >> so, mr. ambassador, let me ask you, is and i know it's impossible to predict this, just as it was impossible to predict the soviet union's rapid collapse, rapid decline, the collapse of their control over eastern europe. but is this something that vladimir putin and russia can continue to sustain? when you look at the economic impact, when you look at the military impact, when you look at the debt, of course there have been devastating costs to ukraine, the smaller country. but when you look at the devastating costs to russia, is this not a war that would be in vladimir putin's best interest to end? well.

>> of course it should be in his interest to end. and you are right about the economic devastation, the loss of life. it is catastrophic. and it will set russia back for decades. but putin is driven by ideology. he's not driven by a cost benefit analysis. and he runs a dictatorship, a very robust dictatorship. so there's no societal feedback to say, hey, it's time to quit. and tragically, countries like russia, he has enough oil and gas that the world will buy, including china and india, to sustain the war effort. and he doesn't care about losing those soldiers. he thinks that if he keeps fighting, he'll go down in history as one of the great conquerors, peter the great, catherine the great, stalin. that's the list he wants to be on. and he's prepared to pay a very high cost to be on that list. >> so. mr. ambassador, let's get your reaction. there were some president. zelensky of ukraine suggested they'd be willing to

ukraine be willing to trade some of the land it seized in the kursk region of russia in order to get return some of the territory that russia has seized within ukraine. the kremlin has already rejected that idea. perhaps to your point of putin wanting to think time is on his side. but let's have you take it from the from the perspective of kyiv. what, as they read the room here in terms of how the us and president trump is dealing with moscow would embolden putin, what do. >> you. >> think their approach needs to be? do they have to adjust their thinking as to what they be willing to accept that to bring this war to an end? >> yes. and they already have. i see hints that they're ready to do a big deal, even to, as president zelensky formulated a few weeks ago, to only seek reunification of their country through peaceful means. that de facto means, i think the ukrainians are ready to allow russia to still occupy parts of their country in return for a

deal, but they want a deal. they don't want capitulation. they don't want putin to get everything. and in their view, the deal has to include security guarantees so that putin just doesn't invade 2 to 3 years from now when his army has recovered. and the best security guarantee from their perspective, and i think they're right, is membership into nato. and that's why it's disappointing to me that president trump, you're talking about the art of the deal. i have that book over here, joe, on my table. i, i think if he's trying to be creative and think outside of the box, that is where a deal can be made. trade the territory for nato membership. and this notion that putin won't go along with that deal, guess what? he doesn't get to be part of the negotiation about nato membership. he's not a member of nato. he doesn't get a veto to that. and i'm confident in predicting that if there was a deal done on the territory, that's putin's best day of his life. that's not the day he's

going to tear up that deal because of nato membership. tragically, i don't think a lot of people in the trump administration share that view. >> yeah, we're. >> going to be watching that in the weeks ahead. nbc news international affairs analyst michael mcfaul, thank you very much. and again, we're so happy your friend has been returned home. shifting gears now back here domestically, elon musk answered questions from the media yesterday for the first time about the work of his doge team and their efforts to shrink the size of the federal government. nbc news chief white house correspondent peter alexander brings us the latest. >> overnight, the. trump administration firing the inspector general, the independent watchdog who oversees usaid. it comes just a day after the ig's office released a report. detailing the potential risks of the administration's dramatic downsizing of the agency. according to a letter obtained by nbc news, all of it as the president and his top lieutenant, billionaire elon musk, say musk's team at the department of government

efficiency has identified billions of dollars in fraud and waste without providing specific evidence. >> when you get down to it, it's going to be probably close to $1 trillion. >> musk in the oval office with his four year old son. >> in. >> tow, insisting the federal. government is filled with. corruption again without evidence, we're. >> talking. >> about known fraudsters, known aspects of waste. >> musk's doge team's operations have been shrouded in secrecy, entering. >> agencies without warning. >> and accessing sensitive data systems. >> i don't know of a case where. >> an organization has been more transparent than the doge organization. >> top democrats are criticizing what they call an attack on federal workers as unacceptable and un-american. >> even though we've got these out. >> of control. >> unelected billionaires. >> yeah, trying. >> to turn back. >> the clock. >> yeah. we're not going back. >> the president also taking another swipe at judges who've

temporarily halted his freeze on some. spending and his implementation of buyouts for federal workers. >> maybe we have to look at the judges, because that's a very serious i think it's a very serious violation. >> overnight, supreme court justice sonia sotomayor taking a not so subtle swipe at. president trump's actions. >> court decisions. >> stand. whether one particular person chooses to abide by. them or not, it doesn't change the foundation. >> that. >> it's still a court order that someone will respect. at some point. >> president trump also said he would consider congressional approval for the spending cuts being recommended by musk, but house speaker mike johnson says that shouldn't be necessary. >> the branches have to respect our constitutional order, but there's a lot there's a lot of game yet to be played. those will be appealed. we've got to go through the whole process and we'll get to the final analysis.

in the interim, i will say i agree wholeheartedly with with vice president jd vance, my friend, because he's right. what they're doing in the executive branch. i've been asked so many times, aren't you uncomfortable with this? no, i'm not, because when congress, for example, appropriates dollars for the executive branch to use, we build in a not only in the spirit of the law, but in the letter of the law, a broad amount of discretion for how that is used. and there's a lot more to come. and i think that the courts should take a step back and allow these processes to play out. what we're doing is good and right for the american people. >> well, it's not the court's job, john, for them. well, what republicans are doing are good and right for the american people. we have article one powers. i've never seen a speaker willing to give up so much power and authority, as mike johnson is willing to give up right now, because, again, this is funding that goes through subcommittees and committees authorized, then

appropriated. madison was very, very specific about the fact that the power of the purse rests with the house of representatives. that's where it rests. so. courts certainly should hear challenges against this. and an injunction just holds things in place until they have a chance to have a more complete hearing. and yeah, let's let's see where everything lands. some of this may be constitutional. some of it may be lawful, some of it may not be. but the whole idea that that the house of representatives should just sit back and ask no questions, that the senate should ask, no questions, that the court should ask no questions, that's just going to be a nonstarter. we went through earlier this week all of the executive orders that joe biden signed that that the courts over four years rejected, enjoined, overturned. you know,

republicans love talking about the student loan, the student loan forgiveness. that's just that's the biggest example. but it happens this this happens as a matter of course, in our constitutional republic. >> this happens. what does not happen would be what vice. president vance floated over the weekend, which would be an open defiance of the court order. we'll have to see if the administration follows through. >> interesting. interesting, though, how his former colleagues in the u.s. senate, the republicans, responded to that and said that's a nonstarter. >> yeah. even josh hawley, who of course. >> is a. >> staunch trump supporter, said that we wouldn't be amenable to that. but ali, it's not just the idea of defying a court order. it is, as joe said, a speaker of the house, seemingly willingly giving up the power that not just he has, but his legislative body does. >> yeah, absolutely. ceding the ground. it's stunning to watch the speaker of the house just basically give it all away and farm it out to the white house to use in its own discretionary

capacity. that is not something that you would expect a speaker to see. but then again, in the age of donald trump, where every member of the republican conference is on a daily basis, faced with the litmus test of being loyal to the trump administration, or take back some of congress's power of the purse, we now see how republicans are handling that. even if johnson doesn't like that, the courts are questioning what the administration is trying to do. i want to bring in someone to the conversation who very much wants those questions answered and posed to the courts. democratic congressman robert garcia of california, he's a member of the new doge subcommittee in the house, which is set to actually hold its first hearing at the top of the hour. and so to that end, congressman, i've got two questions for you. one, that might seem a little procedural, but first, do you guys have, as democrats in the minority on this committee, meaningful subpoena power here? >> well, look, we've tried and. >> i think that. this this committee. >> and our larger. oversight committee has even tried to get elon musk. >> to come.

>> to testify. >> that's been. >> blocked by the republicans. and so a lot of. >> that's. >> being negotiated still. >> but as of right now, we're. >> prepared today. >> to go in and ask and answer. >> some really. >> tough questions. we want to see elon musk. >> but. >> we're also going to call out the corruption. >> we're going to call. >> out the fact that we. >> have essentially an unelected. >> billionaire with. >> almost as much power as the president. >> of the united states. and i think we're going to bring the fire today. and so i think even though we don't have all the power that we would like, we're going to use every minute that we are given at this hearing to call out the corruption, the lies. and i think we're going to bring the fire today. >> there's some that may question why democrats are participating in a committee like this. if republicans are cutting you off at the pass with subpoena power and wondering if you all being on committees like this doesn't validate or normalize the work of doge, which is certainly going about in anything but normal capacity here as it tries to basically rip out root and stem various parts of government, even

agencies themselves. what would you say to folks like that? >> yeah. >> i would say that first, i have zero. >> interest in working. >> with marjorie. >> taylor greene. >> our chairwoman. >> on this. >> committee or the house republicans. >> on this. >> committee to help. >> them. >> with anything as it relates to doge. what we're there for. >> and what we're. >> there to do is to fight, to push back on the lies, to bring attention to what's. >> going on right now at. >> our agencies, and to make sure that people know that we. >> are going to fight every. >> single day. to ensure that. >> we get elon musk out. >> of our. >> private information. so it's important. >> that we are there. look. >> if we weren't there, they would have the entire committee essentially. >> to themselves. >> but let's make no mistake. about it, we are not going to be working with the house majority, and we're certainly not going to be working with marjorie taylor greene. i think, folks, i think folks today i think are going to are going to see us get really engaged and ask. >> really. >> tough questions. well, and congressman, it's pretty i mean, it's pretty predictable what's going to happen today. i think

we're going to hear about the most outrageous examples of government waste. they're going to be programs that would be unpopular with most americans that are in some of these agencies. and so that's going to be what republicans are likely going to be doing. are you are you and other democrats going to be not just bringing the heat, but also the light, explaining how usaid also has promoted programs like pepfar, a republican president's program that saved 25 million lives in africa, how it also increases america's soft power, not only in africa but also across the globe. are we going to hear that side of the story? as a counter to all the examples of waste, fraud and abuse that that republicans may be bringing forward? >> you are. i mean, you're going

to hear about. >> why programs, the department. >> of education are so critical. >> for example, for families with. children with. >> disabilities, you're going to hear why. >> foreign aid is actually not. >> just good for our. >> allies and national. >> security. >> but for america's farmers. you're going to hear why it's important to have consumer protections in the government. for people when they. actually are scammed. by credit card companies and by fraudulent banks. i mean, these are all programs that the american people like that. >> they use. >> and are critical to our national security and the economy. and so you're going to hear all of that. you're also going to hear about why it is that we have this group of. >> essentially dodge. >> bros running around with little experience, certainly not government experience. and given the power to access our personal data, they're going into. our medicare and. >> medicaid systems, into our social security systems. this is i. >> mean, people. >> and rightly so. >> are outraged. >> about this. and so those are the questions. >> that we're going to ask. >> we're going to highlight. >> the programs that we think

are really critical, that are being attacked, and remind people that there are millions of federal workers and people and contractors across this country that are now receiving layoff notices, emails, not giving them any warning about work. there are contracts to america's farmers, manufacturers. >> that they. >> are receiving now and their contracts are being eliminated. this is impacting. everyday people. and we're going to remind. >> the american public of. that today. >> every day, people not just in blue state america, but almost disproportionately in red state america. you take my alma mater, the university of alabama. it is the largest employer in the state of alabama. the impact of some of these cuts would be devastating on on the university of alabama and other southern and midwest state schools across america, democratic congressman robert garcia of california, thank you so much. we really do appreciate it. and coming up, we're going to get to the latest

economic news is a key inflation gauge was released just moments ago. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin joins us to break down the january consumer price index. plus, employees at one financial giant are calling on their ceo to retain the hybrid work model, amid the firm's requirement that its employees return to the office five days a week. good luck with that. and jamie dimon, we'll have those details for you next. you're watching morning joe. >> consumer cellular. >> ranked number one. >> in network. >> coverage and customer satisfaction. hi. >> my friend linda. >> has you guys. >> it gets. >> way better coverage than i do. >> sounds like linda has. >> you beat. >> you beat. >> only in i'm not a doctor. i'm not even in a doctor's office. i'm standing on the streets talking to real people about their heart.

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as i said from the outset, i never broke the law and i never would. so i thank the justice department for its honesty. now we can put this cruel episode behind us and focus entirely on the future of our city. >> well, that was new york. >> city mayor. >> eric adams yesterday, thanking the justice department for ordering the federal corruption. charges against him to be dropped. >> adams was charged in september. >> for wire fraud. >> bribery and. >> seeking illegal campaign donations. now, those charges have not yet officially been dropped. the acting u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york first has to request the dismissal. a judge would then have to review the decision. the order, which came from acting deputy attorney general. attorney general emil bove, would dismiss all charges against mayor adams without prejudice. that means they could be refiled in the future. and joe, that is what's tripped up so many democrats here. i'll just read you one response here

from richard torres, congressman, who. >> writes. >> the mayor of new york city has been compromised. the fear of a renewed federal prosecution after the 2025 election keeps him perpetually under the thumb of donald trump. the city of new york has been all but reduced to a subsidiary of the trump administration. and we should note the letter that that from the attorney that the attorney's office that instructed. >> these charges to be dropped. >> flat out. >> says that one of the reasons why is so adams would be more able to implement donald trump's immigration and deportation policies. it's being spelled out right then and there that adams, if he were to disobey what trump wants, could very well have the charges be filed against him. >> without prejudice. >> without prejudice. >> without prejudice. so it's like, you know, but it does mean the next year or three, he's going to be under the, under the, under the thumb the whole time. >> this is an election year here in the city. and there's a lot of democrats using this as a rallying cry, including some former adams allies like

reverend al sharpton, who have said this is unacceptable and there's at least some movement to try to force governor, governor hochul to force him from office. there's a there's a rarely used mechanism where she could. right. but there's real questions here about whether adams can actually lead the city. now in the wake of what has just happened. >> you talk about. >> politicizing, though, the legal system, the justice system. i mean, this is this is as, as politicized as anything. i mean, it's explicitly so. explicitly so let's talk about let's talk about inflation because we, we just had we had the guy who i now call governor. yeah. mike lawler, who wants to be new york's next governor. i think saying what i think most politicians would say, which is interest rates need to go down. and i said, yeah, the economy's kind of hot though, isn't it? okay. interest rates need to go down. donald trump is going to be saying the same thing. and i

just i think about the republicans criticism of the fed for not recognizing when the economy was too hot, calling inflation transitory and jumping up to 9%. i'm afraid we may be getting again. >> okay. >> so we just got numbers literally less than about an hour ago, right about now, right where we got consumer price, the excuse me, the consumer price index suggesting that we are basically now at 3% again, right. this is higher than people have thought. it means inflation is hotter. and can you explain and what the impact of the fed being pressured. not that they would be, but if the fed were pressured to lower interest rates, lowering interest rates will only increase inflation. exactly. okay. so the only thing they could do right now is try to put some brakes on the inflation. and that would mean raising interest rates okay. which is the last thing which is the last thing the white house wants, the white house wants. now you'll see already trump is on truth social this morning calling this biden inflation because he's

arguing that this report is coming as a at the end of this month as a function of what happened in the last month. what what we now need to see is what happens next month. because the truth is, given how tough this past month is, it is likely that those numbers will have gone up, not down. is this why? is this why the market is saying the market is tanking on the back of this news? because people are really worried that instead of getting a lower interest rate in the future, the now, the chances are we're going to get higher interest rates. and, you know, this is before you get into the true tariffs that we've talked about. right. and this is something that i think we're going to see next month. we've got to watch for even though the tariffs have been put on and then taken off temporarily. right. one of the things that companies are doing like automakers right now, they are stockpiling goods at a huge cost to them. so they're going back and forth between the border between the us and mexico. if you're if you're ford gm, you're you're taking everything you can into the country right now at a

huge cost to you because you're worry is at the end of the month, at the end of the 30 days that actually there will be tariffs for some period of time. and you don't want that. so that that will already start to get built in. we'll be feeling that. yeah. the costs that we'll start to see. by the way tomorrow we get what's called the ppi data which is the producer price index. so this is consumers. this is what consumers feel. tomorrow we'll see what producers feel meaning on the wholesale side inside the inside companies. and i think we're going to start to try to actually rectify what those numbers mean. yes. for, for those friends of ours that watch morning joe every day. and probably you're probably saying the same thing over on on squawk box. you know, we've been saying this economy is hot. we're on the verge of tipping over into inflation again. we've got we've got so many bubbles going on right now. that's why we've been saying even before president trump became president trump again, handle this economy with

care, because we've got the stock market bubble. we've got we've got, you know, a fiscal bubble with a $36 trillion deal. and we've got a cryptocurrency bubble. and, man, a lot of things could explode if we don't handle this economy with care. >> well, trump. >> is saying. >> what he wants. his other post on truth social this morning. he said interest rates should be lowered, something that which would go hand in hand with upcoming tariffs. let's rock and roll america. >> well i. >> that's it. >> i don't even know what to say to that because the truth is if the tariffs go into place that is going to be inflationary. and then you're going to lower rates even more, and that's going to be inflationary. and we're talking here about how do you get prices to actually come down. and we're talking about the exact opposite. it just it doesn't the math doesn't add up. there's no chart that i know about. by the way. there are times in an economic cycle where

maybe tariffs would make sense and other you know, some of these other things would make sense. lowering interest rates would make sense. the problem is right now when it's this hot, yeah, it's hot right now and it's on the verge of going much higher. so if you add tariffs you add lower interest rates. the end that's going to really hurt working americans. it's going to make it look you can eat tariffs. and inflation is a tax on americans. that's all you just need to know. it is a different form of a tax. but it's a tax. so you know i'm thinking on the other story. we teased thinking jamie dimon may not be swayed by people saying, yeah, i want to work in the office 2 or 3 days a week. well, jamie dimon, by the way, i should say, also has a beautiful building that he's building. i don't know if you've seen it on park avenue. it's gorgeous. it scares me because you're like, how how is that? how is that being held up? yeah, right. you're saying that's a feat of engineering? yeah, it really is. but it's $1 billion plus. he's got to. he got to amortize the building. you need employees in

the building. so this idea that somehow these jpmorgan bankers are not going to be working in the building or saying they don't want to work in the building, i think is a nonstarter. yeah, they're not going to have it. not going to have it. all right. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin, thank you so much. and coming up, our next guest is pioneering research in psychology in the psychology field, he says is not taken seriously enough. and that is self-hatred. what the doctor says you need to know and how you can help yourself and your you can help yourself and your family baby: liberty! mom: liberty mutual is all she talks about since we saved hundreds by bundling our home and auto insurance. baby: liberty! biberty: hey kid, it's pronounced "biberty." baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: bi-be-rty! baby: biberty! biberty: and now she's mocking me. very mature. mom: hey, that's enough you two! biberty: hey, i'm not the one acting like a total baby. mom: she's two. only pay for what you need ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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>> small businesses. >> what was it like when trump got elected? what was the i mean, what was the reaction? do you think about ice coming to knock on your front door to. >> you for president trump's

first 100 days? alex wagner travels to the story to talk with people most impacted by the policies. >> were you there. >> on january? >> i was there on january 6th. >> did it surprise you that you were fired, given how resolutely nonpartisan you have been? >> and for more in-depth reporting, follow her podcast, trumpland with alex wagner. >> lock in the. >> whole year peacock. for only 29.99. experience the joy. of staying. >> in and. >> watch all. >> this for. >> less than $3. >> a month. >> don't miss. >> your chance to lock in a whole year of peacock for only 29.99. >> limited time offer. terms apply. but what about. >> the thought that i'm worthless? that i don't belong here? that the mistakes i've made are unforgivable. that the bad things that happen in my life were my fault. those thoughts are just as real as the rest of them, but they're harder to live with. and they send many of us to therapy or to yoga or the nearest bar, which more or

less describes my daily commute for many years, because i wanted to silence those thoughts completely. >> and let. >> me. >> tell you, i tried. >> i have done every. >> kind of. therapy i have. >> ever heard of. suffice to say. i tried, and still sometimes when i was alone, i would hear myself shouting shut up! or worse, to my own mind. >> that was researcher and strategist karen faith discussing her own self-defeating thoughts during a ted talk. those remarks come at a time during which our next guest says, addressing self-hatred is an underfunded and understaffed field. joining us now is doctor blaze aguirre. he is the author of the new book titled i hate myself. overcome self-loathing and realize why you're wrong about you. he's also the founding medical director of the three east center at harvard's mclean hospital, and is an assistant professor of psychiatry at harvard medical school. so i think that some people doctor, might listen to what she's

saying there in that ted talk and say, i have felt that myself. talk about how you define self-hatred and why you think it should be taken much more seriously. >> yeah, i thought that was an incredible introduction to the segment. >> but i. >> just want. >> to. say one other quick thing. i just want. >> to thank morning. >> joe, because. >> in the context. >> of. >> everything that's going on in the world. >> you guys have. >> been strong. advocates for mental health awareness. >> and i really just appreciate you having. >> me on your. >> show again. so yeah, so this core self-hatred that. >> i'm. >> talking about. >> is not. >> this, you know, some dissatisfaction. >> in the. >> moment. some upsetness with yourself, some criticism. it's this core. >> and enduring. >> part of how you feel about yourself. and it's. something that. >> starts very. very early. on in life. it makes you feel. >> unworthy, unlovable. >> you know, someone who deserves punishment, someone who deserves. >> less than that. you're not

enough. and by the. >> way. it's made even. >> worse because marketers market to your not enoughness. they market to your self-hatred. these days, you're not tall. >> enough. >> or. thin enough or strong enough or. anything enough. so children. who feel that way. >> are even more. >> vulnerable to this sort of concept of not enoughness. and when. that core idea of self-criticism, not enoughness, becomes so much bigger, it can become full blown self-hatred. >> not enoughness also amplified by social media. we've seen so many studies about that, and i'm glad that you appreciate this mental health awareness. i think centering therapy and mental health is so important. i love that this show does that. but doctor, in the book you discuss why self-hatred takes root in some people to begin with. you write in part, self-hatred is not a choice. you are not presented with the options of loving yourself or hating yourself, and just choose to hate yourself. self-hatred is there because you were led to believe that it's true. your early experiences were not your

fault. any bad thing that happened to you was not because you decided that it was what you wanted. experience after experience led you to believe that you were not worthy. you did not make self-hatred happen, and self-hatred does not have to be what endures. you have the power within you to define and validate your experience, and then change something that you believe would never change. so i think some people watching this who might experience it might ask how? >> right? yeah, no, it's. >> such. >> an important question. >> and. >> you know. >> i think it. >> has. >> to come. from two, two ways. so one. >> is the individual. with lived. >> experience to sort of recognize, like you weren't born hating yourself. >> you had to learn how. >> to. hate yourself. and like with anything else that. >> you've learned, you can unlearn. >> you know, you can learn a language, you. >> can unlearn. >> a language. and that the. >> people who taught. >> you didn't have your best interest in mind. you know, the people. >> who were. >> abusive, the people. >> who. >> were bullies. and by the way,

the people that i'm talking about tend to be highly sensitive people. i see many people that. >> have early. >> childhood experiences that don't end up hating themselves. so the first. >> thing is just to acknowledge. >> this isn't a permanent part of who i am. it's not built into my dna. i had to learn how to hate myself. >> but the other. >> part, and i think that this lies on the shoulders of therapists, is that we haven't asked therapists or therapists don't ask about self-hatred. in a standard psychiatric. >> interview. >> and many people with perfectionism, with people pleasing, with self-criticism, self-judgment aren't good. you know, don't say that they hate themselves, and therapists don't ask. >> yeah. and you talk about in the book how important it is that therapists start doing that. blaze let, let for somebody at home who who this message is really striking a chord with. i want you to explain to them about what they're telling themselves, what

they're hearing in their head is a lie, and it is a lie because what people because of the lie that people have put into their head that they are, are, are are. >> people of. >> of great worth. and again, it's not as easy as turning on and off a light switch. but i love i love the subhead overcoming self-loathing and realizing why you're wrong about you, why you're wrong to hate yourself. talk about that. >> yeah, yeah. you know. >> it's interesting, you know, just watching your show, how so. >> much information. >> is presented and then what happens, you know, like, say, in the news and politics, and then we just believe it. >> to. >> be true. you know, we talk about fake news for. >> a very, very young child. >> the fake news. >> is that you're not worthy. >> and. >> you know, maybe the child doesn't. >> succeed and they're considered stupid or they're not

athletic. and so they're. >> labeled in a. >> certain way. >> and when the child doesn't have. >> context. >> it begins to. >> believe that those things are true. >> but those are learned behaviors. >> those are those are learned just. >> as much. >> as english. is learned or spanish is learned, or. walking is learned. >> so, so. >> and the other thing. >> is, it's actually dissonant. >> because i a lot of the people i work with are just beautiful, wonderful, loving, talented people. >> and what they believe. >> about themselves. >> that i. >> see is can they. >> that's different. >> they can't. that's the frustrating thing, is that when you're dealing with somebody that's fighting self-loathing, you see the goodness in them, you see the greatness in them, but they can't see it themselves because they're looking through a filter that twists and distorts that reality about the goodness in them. >> and i. >> say. >> okay, who. >> are your teachers? what were. >> the lessons that you learned? >> when did you start. >> hating yourself? what are the

manifestations of that self-hatred? and we see it in people pleasing. we see it in perfectionism, not enoughness, self-criticism, self-judgment. those are indications that it's there. >> and you. have to know that it wasn't in your dna. it wasn't. >> it's not a. fundamental part of you. you've got to create this. wedge between between the idea that i am unworthy and the fact of it because it's not true. and by the way, we all screw up. i mean, i do so every single day and people. >> are going to make. >> mistakes, but it's. >> not because. >> you're a flawed individual. it's because you don't have the skill set to do things differently and realize how wonderful you actually are. >> yeah. the new book, i hate myself overcoming self-loathing and realizing why you're wrong about you, is on sale now. blaze, thank you so much for being with us. such an important, important message. we greatly appreciate it. >> thank you so much, joe. >> and again. >> just thanking.

>> your entire team for what you guys do for mental health. >> thank you. >> all right. thank you. blaze. coming up, two nasa astronauts who have been stuck on the international space station since last summer may be able to return to earth sooner than expected. we have those details expected. we have those details for you. next. we're back in dry eyes still feel gritty, rough, or tired? with miebo, eyes can feel ♪ miebo ♪ ♪ ohh yeah ♪ miebo is the only prescription dry eye drop that forms a protective layer for the number one cause of dry eye: too much tear evaporation. for relief that's ♪ miebo ♪ ♪ ohh yeah ♪ remove contact lenses before using miebo. wait at least 30 minutes before putting them back in. eye redness and blurred vision may occur. ♪ miebo ♪ ♪ ohh yeah ♪ ask your eye doctor about prescription miebo. it all started with a small business idea. it's a pillow with a speaker in it! that's right craig. pulling in the perfect team to get the job done. i'm just here for the internets. at&t, it's super-fast!

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dazzling journey using state of the art technology to share the story of how we came to be and what we can become. let's take a look. >> this is. >> flythrough of.

>> real data. so this. >> is a. >> data set. it's called the. >> sloan digital sky survey, which is a project. >> to map. >> the position. >> of galaxies in. >> the sky. >> so each point of light you. >> see in this fly through. >> is the. >> measured position. >> of a galaxy. >> this is a. real 3d. >> map of. >> the universe. on this scale. >> you see that. >> the universe is. >> a snowstorm. >> of galaxies. >> each one of these has hundreds of. >> billions of. >> suns, and. >> it does look like someone's. >> just sprinkled snowflakes. >> across the sky. >> horizons will conclude its sellout world world record breaking tour in the united states later this year, and the creator of horizons. world renowned physicist, cosmologist, broadcaster and author professor brian cox joins us right now. professor, so good to see you this morning. let's start with with the tour itself and sort of some of the messages you're trying to convey and the

importance of them, and a moment where for so many, you know, there's suddenly even a skepticism or doubt about science. >> yeah. >> and the show is. >> based, i say. >> at the start. that cosmology, the study of the universe. >> raises very profound questions. >> about our place. >> in the universe. >> and what does it mean to. >> live a finite, fragile. >> life in an infinite, eternal universe? >> and i. >> say that, of course, i don't know the answer to that question. nobody does. >> but i. >> think following. >> one of my great heroes. >> carl. >> sagan, the thing one of the things that. >> got me into astronomy. >> was cosmos. >> in 1979. >> when i was 11 years old. >> and he. >> said that. >> the discoveries. >> that. >> we make. >> can and. >> should inform. >> the way. >> that we. behave on this planet. and it's very easy. >> in cosmology. >> to say. >> well. >> we're insignificant. >> and we are. >> physically, you know. >> we're little. >> specks on one planet. >> around. one star amongst. >> 400 billion. stars in one. >> galaxy, amongst. 2 trillion galaxies in the observable universe. so, yes. but as far as we know. >> there is. >> no other place. >> in the milky way galaxy where

a civilization exists. that may be. it may turn out. >> that we discover. >> one someday, but i think. >> it's a reasonable. >> working assumption. >> to say. >> well. >> what if. this is the only. >> place where there are. >> collections of. >> atoms that can. >> think. >> which is what we are? >> it's a remarkable. >> thing to me. >> why is this connecting so well with audiences around the globe? >> i think. >> that anyone. >> who's just. >> looked. >> up at the stars and. >> thought a. >> bit about what they're. >> seeing. >> you know, there's. >> a very. famous planetary alignment coming up where all the planets are aligned. >> so you can look at these. points of. >> light and. >> then begin to think that they're worlds. >> with. >> moons orbiting around them. >> and you can even see our. >> nearest neighboring galaxy, the andromeda galaxy, which is bigger than the milky way, just about with. >> the naked eye. i think it for. >> me, the. attraction is not only the science. >> but the. the thoughts. >> that the science. forces us to have. >> or the. >> questions it forces. >> us to confront. and those are

universal questions. that transcend cosmology and science, i think. >> are you encouraged by this sort of renewed focus on the idea of space travel, even if it's from private groups like elon musk and jeff bezos, jeff bezos, to head to mars and beyond? >> i really am. >> i mean, we've. already industrialized. >> earth. >> earth orbit, so we use it every day. of course, satellite navigation, communications, weather. >> forecasting and so on. >> but i. >> think ultimately it is. >> elon musk. >> is correct. we have. >> to. become a. multi-planetary civilization. >> there's a tremendous. >> possibility out there in the solar system and ultimately beyond. >> so i suppose. >> the question is how difficult is it? at what. >> pace do you begin to move. out from earth? so there is an asteroid heading our way. at least some people on social media seem to be rooting for the asteroid to make impact here on earth. talk to us about this asteroid. does it pose any sort of threat? are these folks going to be disappointed? it does. i mean, as far as we can tell. >> at the moment, there's a was the number. >> about a 1 in 40. >> chance that. >> it will impact the earth.

it's not a. >> big one. >> in the cosmic scale of things, but it's big. >> enough to wipe out a city. so it's. >> of the. >> order of the size of the famous tunguska. >> asteroid. >> which hit siberia in 1908, that. demolished about 800mi!s f forest. so, so. >> it's fascinating to me. >> it's kind of a dilemma. >> because the thing about these things, if we're to mount. >> a mission to nudge it, if we. >> begin to suspect there's. >> a chance, even this chance, 1 in. >> 40. >> if it stays like that. >> we have. >> to do it now. >> but very soon. >> the. sooner you. >> do. >> it, the easier it is. so we have a dilemma with this asteroid. >> it's a relatively. >> low chance, although maybe. >> it's a high chance because it's a city killing asteroid. >> so we. >> really need. >> to be. >> thinking of. >> what we. >> might do if. that if subsequent observations that we're making. >> now don't. >> confirm that it's going to miss. >> and as alex said, it's time to get some oil rig operators. armageddon style. >> 1990 is your. >> time. >> ben. >> are you volunteering.

>> to go? >> and i don't know if anybody would. well, thank you so much for being with us. this is this is extraordinary. and tickets for horizon are on sale now. professor brian cox, thank you so much. and that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. >> right now on ana cabrera reports. every dog has its day and any second on capitol hill. the first meeting of. >> the house. >> dog subcommittee will get. >> started as. >> the president empowers. >> his top dog. >> elon musk. >> but will. >> we. >> get any. >> transparency about. >> his power. >> and access? >> also on the hill this. >> hour, president. >> trump's former personal. >> attorney faces. >> a. confirmation hearing. >> to. >> become the number. >> two at the doj. >> will he be a cudgel or. >> buttress against potential political retribution? >> plus, back on u.s. soil, an american released from russia. but were there any strings attached? and the. markets in the red this morning afterin