markets where people. >> feel stuck. >> you know, it was just last month. we got $150. >> million around back. for people who use cash app, the popular. >> payments network. so i think this is pretty strange, and. >> i would. >> hope that it is not part of a broader effort. >> to defund the police. that oversee. >> big companies so that. >> they can run wild. break the law with impunity. and hike up the cost of. every day. >> expenses that we face. you know, katie, people paid over $100. >> billion. >> in credit card interest. i don't think that that should. >> be. >> another expense where people. >> are gouged even. >> further, and the. >> cfpb is the. >> one. >> who. >> can stop that. >> rohit chopra, thank you very much for joining us. appreciate your time. that's going to do it for me today. deadline. white house starts right now.

>> hi everyone. it's 4:00. >> in. >> new york. >> we come on the air. >> with breaking. >> news about an extraordinary behind the scenes standoff. >> with consequences. >> for the future of the. >> rule in. >> law of law in this country. literally on the line. it's happening right now. in the. >> wake of an extraordinary. >> demand by. >> the trump administration to drop criminal charges against new. york's current mayor. eric adams, in exchange for his cooperation with mass deportations. the acting u.s. attorney for the southern district of new. york has resigned this afternoon. it comes three days after that directive had come down from acting deputy attorney general emily beauvais. she had supported the case that had been charged and brought against eric adams, which at this hour remains in place in a i hate to use the word again, but extraordinary memo from deputy ag emil beauvais that's been obtained by nbc news, responding to the southern district of new

york's refusal to drop this case against adams. beauvais writes to danielle sisson, quote, you indicated that the prosecution team is aware of your communications with the justice department, that it is supportive of your approach and is unwilling to comply with the order to dismiss this case. accordingly, the assistant u.s. attorney is principally responsible for this case, are being placed on off duty administrative leave pending investigations by the office of the attorney general and the office of professional responsibility, both of which will also evaluate your conduct. sources tell nbc news that the case has been reassigned to the justice department's public integrity section, and that happened when the officials at s.d.n.y refused to drop the case against eric adams because they believed in the strength of the evidence. but when it got there, trump officials were met with more resistance. the acting head of the public integrity section also did the same thing that s.d.n.y. did and refused to

dismiss this very strong, seemingly open and shut corruption and bribery case against eric adams and also resigned. all this happened today, and it happened after attorney general pam bondi was asked why the case remained in place, even after her deputy demanded it be dismissed. here's what she said. that case should. >> be dropped. >> it was. >> done at the direct directive of amel. so that case should be dropped. i did not know that it had not been dropped yet, but i will certainly look into that. >> i did not know there were people still standing up for the rule of law in america, said pam bondi yesterday. now the turmoil now inside s.d.n.y. comes with excrutiatingly high stakes for the entire country, but especially for the justice system, the federal justice system. new york times puts it like this quote the southern district of new york has long been viewed as the nation's most prestigious u.s. attorney's office handling complex and often high profile cases involving wall street, national

security, and public corruption. although the office is part of the justice department, there are 93 u.s. attorneys offices around the country, and the southern district has a reputation for guarding its independence and fending off interference from washington. winning it the nickname the sovereign district. and for those inside s.d.n.y and doj, and for anyone facing the trump administration's demand to dismiss the adams case, the merits of which have not been criticized by anyone, not even the new trump appointees. here's how. friend of the show and former s.d.n.y. prosecutor david kelly describes the decision they now face on the show yesterday. if you brought the case, you believe the case is righteous and you go along with something that's clearly a political patronage. what are you a part of? >> well, you're. >> part of an. >> institution that's. >> been tainted. and the question. >> is. >> can i continue. in my service? >> that is someone who whose words carry a lot of weight in

that office. and that was just 24 hours ago. the news breaking in the last hour is where we start today. joining us, former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, mimi roca. she ran criminal division. also joining us, msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann, who is a former top official at the department of justice. with me at the table for the whole hour. my dear friend and colleague, host of all in here on msnbc, chris hayes. he's here because he wrote a tremendously important new book, and we are going to get to it, but we're going to steal his brilliant brain for this conversation to the book is called the siren's call how attention became the world's most endangered resource. mimi, i start with you because i know you've been on the phone today with folks inside that office. what's happening right now? >> nicole? >> what i'm hearing is. you know, there's just been this sort of explosion of tension, if you will, that's been built up over the past few days.

obviously, when the directive came from doj to dismiss the case and, you know, hours and then days went by and it didn't happen, it was pretty clear that there was resistance to that directive coming from within the office. i just have to say, i know you've said this already, but i just want to reiterate it. i mean, my phone is just blowing up with alumni, not just from sdmi, but from all over doj who are so proud of danielle sassoon. the courage that it takes to do this with this administration and what she's going to be put through now. and, you know, i don't i don't know her decision making process and exactly how she got here. but i am not surprised because she has always been a person of integrity. and it just makes me beyond proud to see that office because she didn't make this decision alone. i am sure, you

know, as as we've been seeing in the reporting and even in bova's letter that the line prosecutors who had this case, you know, support this, and the people in the office, you must have tremendous support from them. and it's just a really, really hard time there right now. but we're going to get through it. and by we, i mean all d.o.j. alumni and current prosecutors, because this shows that our commitment to the rule of law and integrity is stronger than the trump administration's bullying. >> i want to ask i want to do three things. i mean, we're going to come on the air with news that is really dark and really bleak, and we're going to try to sort of calmly sift through it with the best people we have at our disposal. and that's who we have here today. i want to just back up a little bit and share a couple of things

that that have come across our desk in the last hour. and, chris, i'm gonna have you help me do this. one is the story itself. so here's the story. this is the times lead on the story. manhattan u.s. attorney, manhattan u.s. attorney on thursday resigned days after she was ordered to drop the corruption case against new york city's mayor. then, when justice department officials sought to transfer the case to main d.o.j. to the public integrity section, which oversees corruption cases, the two men who led that unit also resigned, according to five people with knowledge of the matter. the resignations represent the most high profile public resistance so far to trump's tightening control over the justice department. daniel sassoon. not that anyone in the department has a political sort of brand or character, but but she is from a conservative. she she got to the justice department through a very conservative pathway. >> yes. >> and i mean, take a step back for just. >> a. >> second here. the this letter. >> by emile bove, which i have

to say is a. >> wild document. >> i mean, a. >> wild we will read the whole. thing on the air. >> it has a. >> kind. >> of unhinged. >> quality to it. like you can hear him. >> like banging. >> the keyboard. >> as he writes. you know. >> how dare you? >> basically, how dare you? >> the theory of the case. here is that the biden justice department was weaponized. >> against its political enemies. the biden justice department. >> whose u.s. >> attorneys prosecuted. >> a senior. >> democrat from new. >> jersey and convicted him, and the democratic mayor of the biggest city in america. this is the theory of weaponization with this tortured. >> nonsense about it. >> had to do with. >> somehow the president's son. >> and the president's son. right. this is. >> the weaponized department. >> the letter that bove. >> wrote to sassoon. >> to dismiss the case. was such a shameful document. i asked christi greenberg on my show. i said. >> is. >> there an attorney general in the last. >> 50 years. >> that.

>> put their. >> name on this document? she's like, i. >> really don't think there was. >> and i didn't know if i was being hyperbolic, but the actions today from sassoon, her deputies. >> and the. >> folks at main justice show that that document itself, which essentially said, even though it said in a footnote there is no corrupt quid pro quo bargain here was the expression of a corrupt quid pro quo bargain. we are seeing now. >> that anyone. >> with any sense and integrity understands. >> this for exactly what. >> it was. >> andrew weissmann, take us through how you see today's events as they unfolded so far. we should say we should tell our viewers we have crews heading down there now to see if to sort of bring us live reporting about what's happening there as we speak. >> so again, i don't want to. >> be. >> hyperbolic. >> but i do want to make sure people understand this is a sort of preeminent test of the rule. >> of law. >> in this country. it does not happen that career people resign

over orders that they. >> are. >> given when those orders are even remotely justifiable. to chris's point, it. >> simply does. >> not happen. the only time that i can think of. >> something like. >> this happening. >> where you see career people pushing back are in trump 1.0, where when people like jonathan kravis resigned over instructions coming from. >> bill. >> barr, you saw resignations that were front page news, and now you're seeing it within the first few weeks of trump 2.0. it is extraordinary. the only other time i can think of in history that you have seen this is during the saturday night massacre, when nixon ordered the firing of the special counsel looking into his and his coconspirators conduct, and people pushed back and refused. the other thing i think it's important to do is this is not a

story about danielle sassoon. i completely agree with mimi that this takes an iron backbone. >> and. >> a real commitment to the rule of law, and she has shown that. but as you said, nicole, it is true of her, her deputies, of the people in the public integrity section at main justice. and then let's not forget that all of this started with the fbi pushing back on an equally bogus memo and directive from emil bove, asking to round up thousands of people at the fbi who emil bove said were appropriately characterized as participating in a grave national injustice. and what was that grave national injustice? it was investigating the january 6th case. so it's really important to note that what you're. seeing is an enormous pushback of career people at the

bureau and at the attorneys at main justice saying, we adhere to the rule of law. so this this really is a crisis. and this department of justice, this new leadership is going. >> to have. >> a hell of a time now establishing any credibility, any bona fides with the thousands of people trained in the rule of law at the fbi, at the department of justice prosecutor's offices, and in the. other agencies of. >> the. >> department, which were believe in facts and law. so a huge crisis caused by the leadership, the trump leadership at the department. >> well, and i think that the rule of law is something that conservatives have pretended to care about for as long as i've been on the earth breathing in. and let me tell you where the federalist society stands right now. they get to decide whether

to stand behind their protege. i mean, here's who danielle sassoon is. she's 38. she joined the southern district in 2016. she's a graduate of harvard college and yale law school. she clerked for justice antonin scalia on the supreme court, and she is a member of the federalist society, the conservative legal group. she's best known for the successful fraud prosecution in 2023 conviction of sam bankman-fried, the founder of the crypto exchange ftx, who received 25 years in prison. she also prosecuted lawrence ray, who was convicted in 2022 of extortion and sex trafficking related to his abuse of sarah lawrence college students. he was sentenced to 60 years in prison in 2023. he was named co-chief of the southern districts criminal appeals unit, the position she held when she was promoted last month to interim u.s. attorney. the federalist society and mitch mcconnell and john thune and don mcgahn and all of the republicans whose

claim to fame and the price they paid for their soul and supporting trump was remaking the courts. they have a decision to make, and our lines will be open for an hour and 45 minutes. if they want to jump on the air and defend the integrity of daniel sassoon and the federalist society. >> it is really. important to remember that the people who are pushing back are. these are people where it's these are conservatives. you saw this in trump at 1.0 also. there are conservatives who believe in the rule of law. they signed up for the policies, not for doing things that are political. in an environment where you're supposed to be apolitical. the acting head of the fbi was selected by the trump administration, and he is pushing back. danielle sassoon is there because of the trump administration. she's in an

acting position. these are not just so everyone's clear. and your point is these are not the sort of liberal deep state people. they can't be targeted that way. and so what you're going to see is because they're standing up, they're now going to be criticized in the way that you see bill barr being criticized of all people because their sin is standing up. it's not anything about who they are as a as a person. it is the fact that as soon as you actually say what you're doing is wrong, you get vilified. and that's where i mean, amy bova's letters, and the fact that he has written this down is the kind of thing that everyone in the department, everyone at the fbi can look at, and it's so laughable and yet so serious because it's it is in black and white, undermining the rule of law. and that is why you are seeing this enormous pushback from the people who

believe in principle. and it just to make a fine point to relate it to judges. so many people think about judges and thinking, oh, well, it's just the liberal judges, but you're seeing the same thing on the bench where you see judges who are appointed by republicans and democrats and judges appointed by donald trump himself saying, no, go. this is where issuing temporary restraining orders and preliminary injunctions, because what you're doing does not comply with the law. so you're seeing it in just a wide array from people of all political persuasions, because these are people who are. and it's great to see is to meany's point, standing up for the rule of law. >> maybe it's chris. >> hayes here. >> i want to just. >> i'm curious. your the. >> original bové letter that that basically was. >> publicized right where. >> he says, we're. >> dropping this. because we want the.

>> mayor to. >> to be free to deport. >> basically. yeah. >> to coordinate. >> with. >> our immigration priorities. >> and we're going to suspend it and. >> kind. of hold it. >> over. >> his head. >> if he's. >> a good boy. >> it was it was such a. i found it such a shocking document. it was so. flagrantly lawless. >> and it didn't. >> really have a pretense of cover. i mean. aside from the footnote that explicitly says this isn't a quid pro quo, even though it obviously was. >> it says. >> to me, mimi, that part of what they're doing here is they want to openly say that these are the president's lawyers, that the entire machinery of justice. >> operates on. >> his behalf. >> not about the law. >> and this. >> was the first. >> test case. >> to be. >> like, we're not even. >> going to pretend. >> we're not. >> going to. >> come up with. >> a. >> colorable argument for this. >> legally speaking. >> and this is the reaction. >> but what did you make of that? that letter. >> from bové. >> 100%. chris. the letter proves the corruption of the deal between trump and adams,

between d.o.j. main justice and adams out loud on doj letterhead. it is embarrassing. it is blatant. it is there for everyone to see. and i just want to point out, i'm sure we'll get to some of the letters later. but danielle sassoon, in her letter explaining, you know, why she's not proceeding has it's the contrast is remarkable how eloquent her letter is, which i'm just skimming now. but she she says exactly what you're saying. she says rather than be rewarded, adams advocacy should be called out for what it is an improper offer of immigration enforcement assistance in exchange for a dismissal of his case. yes, exactly. he made the offer by courting trump and, you know, sort of implying that he would not be able to do his duties enforcing the immigration law were he under indictment.

and then the doj, beauvais came out, emile bove, and said, yeah, you're right. and so, you know what? we're going to not totally dismiss the case because they don't want to give him a free and clear. they want leverage over him. i mean, it reminds me of the mob cases i did. you know, doing a favor for someone is not nearly as impactful as having something hanging over their head. and i think, you know what what you're talking about and what this gets to is how much this was a political deal between adams and the trump administration. the doj absolutely should not have involved itself in and exactly why all these career prosecutors, you know, from s.d.n.y to doj, public integrity. and frankly, i'm quite convinced that almost any doj prosecutor across the country would have done this, because this is this is not what the justice system, this is a corrupt use of the levers of

justice. >> so let me just update our viewers. there is a new letter that we have obtained, the letter that was sent today by beauvais after the acting u.s. attorney, miss hassoun, resigned. let me share that with all of you. so this is emile beauvais writing a letter that was hand-delivered to danielle sassoon this afternoon. quote, miss sassoon, in response to your refusal to comply with my instruction. that's the earlier letter chris and mimi are talking about to dismiss the prosecution of mayor eric adams. i write to notify you of the following. first, your resignation is accepted. this decision is based on your choice to continue pursuing a politically motivated prosecution, despite an expressed instruction to dismiss the case. you lost sight of the oath you took when you started at the department. by suggesting that you retain discretion to interpret the constitution in a manner inconsistent with the policies of a democratically elected president and senate confirmed attorney general.

second, you indicated that the prosecution team is aware of your communications with the justice department and is supportive of your approach and is unwilling to comply with the order to dismiss the case. accordingly, the is principally responsible for this case are being placed on off duty administrative leave pending investigations by the office of the attorney general and the office of professional responsibility, both of which will also evaluate your conduct. at the conclusion of these investigations, the attorney general will determine whether termination or some other action is appropriate. andrew weissmann, is that a threat of prosecution? >> well, it's certainly a threat of firing of potential civil and i guess potentially criminal cases. you know, when i've been thinking about what is the sort of upshot, what's the ramification? this is one where the employees who are who may suffer these, these adverse employment actions and goes out

of his way to say, this is not an amiable, this is not an adverse employment action, when, of course it is. it's another sort of false denial. this is going to end up in a court. this is where i just don't know that they're playing chess. and thinking about what's going to happen. the palpably thin and fallacious letters that we're seeing out of beauvais are going to be challenged. the ones that are have been given to the fbi. those are going to be subject to litigation. the things that he's doing now with the s.d.n.y. and with the public integrity section, those are going to be subject to litigation. this is the kind of thing where it's going to tie them up, because they're going to have to put meat on the bones on these allegations that are just false. i mean, it's really sort of an interesting thing that they are not deft in the way that they're doing this, because there will

be litigation, and if it's not brought by the department, it's going to be brought by the employees saying what you did here is illegal. you know, we again, we can go back to trump 1.0. we saw andy mccabe bring his case and win. we saw pete strzok bring his case and win. we saw lisa page bring her case and win. and so here when you're trying to do these sort of mass terminations and mass employment actions, you are going to see a host of litigation. where these people in the departments and emil beauvais being the top one, are going to have to stand up and under oath justify what they're doing. and i do not think it's going to stand up. so this is it's i think, you know, it's worth it's worth thinking about where this is going to go. and how much i think this is going to end up sort of biting them later in the day when courts get their hands on this and they're not able to just take unilateral action, because

we do see that the courts are also standing up to what they have determined to be illegal and improper activity by the trump administration. >> chris, there is a lot of sort of headway that the maga movement made in destroying the credibility of doj and the fbi. if they hadn't made so much progress, they went to one because trump ran on dismantling it. but but this case is so understandable. eric adams took money to do favors, and then eric adams offered to do another favor for donald trump and has his bribery case, which is very understandable, dropped. it would be, i guess, some degree of ironic if this punctures what has been a rather successful war against the rule of law waged by maga. >> yeah. and i think it it's. striking that when this first, when the letter. >> first broke that this was being dropped. >> there was this sense. >> i had we covered. >> on the show, like, is. anyone

going to. >> do this is outrageous. is anyone to do anything about it? and this what you're seeing. today is how important it is that people act with integrity and that they put their money. >> where. >> their mouth is. and they do things like this. because the only chance for things. >> to break. through in the universe we live. >> in is for actions like this. >> and that's i don't. >> say that lightly. >> like, it's. >> not a small. >> thing to resign. >> your job, right? >> at all. it's a big thing. and one. >> of the. >> things that. we're going. >> to have to see throughout. >> the institutions. >> of american life and in. >> civil. >> society is integrity. >> and courage. >> the only way we're going. >> to get out of. >> this is with integrity and courage. and so what you're seeing right now is tremendous integrity, tremendous courage. and it's contagious. and it also has the effect of producing attention. right. we didn't have a story. this was not the story. >> no. >> at 320 today. >> right. >> it's the story now because of

the actions these people took. >> and it is impossible until it is grotesquely distorted. on right wing media that this is some deep state figure. i mean, she is a former scalia clerk. >> but they you. >> know, they'll attack. >> i mean, they went after bill barr of all people. you know, they went after mike pence. i mean, mike pence is now a persona like, you know, they. >> the sort of totalitarian. >> mindset that i think really does sort of guide this is that they get to decide who's in and who's out. i mean, let's just say all of this is being done for the benefit of a democratic mayor. >> of new york city, right? >> like the alliances here are all about weaponization. yeah. and which side of the trump line you're on? that's the only loyalty that matters. >> her bonafides. >> her credentials, her. >> citing scalia. >> her scalia clerkship. >> they'll throw that out. >> the first second, because that's not what defines it. they like eric adams. that's their kind of guy. that's who they can work with. >> they like him now. >> yeah. >> we'll see how long that lasts. >> all right. we there are developments coming in since we've been on the air. we're

going to gather them and tell you about it. we have to sneak in a very short break while we do that. we have the letter that mamie is talking about from to the new attorney general. i also want to ask everybody how this impacts the person who's supposed to run the office, a man named jay clayton. does this come up in his confirmation hearing? will anybody care about a scalia clerk being run out of there because she refuses to there because she refuses to crime? another break for us. ♪♪ well would you look at that? jerry, you've got to see this. i've seen it. trust me, after 15 walks, it gets a little old. ugh. i really should be retired by now. wish i'd invested when i had the chance... to the moon! unbelievable. stop waiting. start investing. e*trade ® from morgan stanley. tap into etsy e*trade ® for original and affordable home and style pieces like

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♪ (man) cooool. ♪ (man) right on time! (vo) stay in the know. from your dock... to their door. the country. >> we are. >> all watching and. >> waiting to see who is going. >> to hold the line. >> don't miss the weekends. >> saturday, and sunday mornings at. >> 8:00 on msnbc. >> what we do is. try to cut right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington that day. as i said, it's a story that's happening right now. but i want to do something with the letter that mamise referenced and that chris has spoken to. danielle sassoon has responded to this

standoff going the way it did, resulting in her resignation of a refusing to drop the eric adams case. this is a letter that danielle sassoon wrote and delivered to pam bondi, the attorney general, yesterday, and in it, danielle sassoon writes this rather than be rewarded. eric adams advocacy should be called out for what it is and improper offer of immigration enforcement assistance in exchange for a dismissal of his case. although mr. beauvais disclaimed any intention to exchange leniency, leniency in this case, or adams assistance in enforcing federal law, that is the nature of the bargain laid bare. and mr. bové's memo that is especially so given mr. beauvais's comparison to the prisoner exchange, which was quite expressly a quid pro quo, but one carried out by the white house and not the prosecutors in charge of bout's case. chris. >> yeah. and the idea.

>> again. >> that the sort. >> of the kingly. prerogative with which. beauvais conducts himself, i mean, he has. >> been. >> really the hatchet man. >> he should. >> be quite famous in america. he has been the hatchet man for the trump vision of the justice department, which is. >> donald trump's lawyers. first and foremost. everyone reports to him. >> and you know, this letter. >> where she. >> goes through all the reasons. >> that she. >> cannot in. >> good conscience, consistent with the rule of law, the. >> constitution. >> her oath, the. guidelines and procedures of the federal department. and even she cites that weaponization memo which says that you're not supposed to you're. >> supposed to make good. >> faith arguments and not politically loaded ones. and she request what she requests in. this is a meeting with pam bondi. i don't know if this letter ever got to pam bondi, given pam bondi, i don't know the order of operations here, but it is a excoriating letter. >> in its. >> own sort. >> of quiet and. >> dignified way. >> i want to i think to chris's point, this is sort of the first

draft of history as as sort of ripped from the headlines as it can be here on cable news. but let me read more from this letter drafted by danielle sassoon, delivered to pam bondi. as chris is saying, we don't know that pam bondi read it, but this is what danielle sassoon wrote. this is a footnote from her letter to the attorney general. quote i attended a meeting on january 31st, 2025 with mr. beauvais, with eric adams, counsel and members of my office. eric adams. attorneys repeatedly urged what amounted to a quid pro quo, indicating that adams would be in a position to assist with the department's enforcement priorities only if the indictment were dismissed. mr. beauvais admonished a member of my team who took notes during that meeting and directed the collection of those notes at the meeting's conclusion. andrew weissman there is a similar footnote in volume two of robert mueller's obstruction volume. don mcgahn tells the story either he or his chief of staff, annie donaldson, tell a story to mueller's investigators on the obstruction side about how

donald trump didn't like lawyers who took notes, and he kept saying, why are you taking notes? what are you writing down? why is that significant? >> there is no reason in god's green earth for the person who is the deputy attorney general to say to federal prosecutors at a meeting that they cannot take notes and they need to if they have to collect them, if there is nothing going on in that meeting that you're not embarrassed by the normal rule, of course, that means we're not. and that doesn't apply now. the normal rule is you need to do you act as if everything will be on the front page of the washington post or the new york times or on national tv, and if you have nothing, if you're not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't worry about anyone memorializing what is going on. i should note that the other story that is breaking today

also is about emil bove. we talked, and it's important to note this because we're talking about how disingenuous his memos are. his memo that said, i want to round up all these people at the fbi. and i fired the leadership at the fbi for participating in the january 6th investigation, which he describes as a national injustice. the reporting today is that emil bove, when he was back as a federal prosecutor, by the way, in what district? the southern district of new york. when he was there, he himself participated in those investigations and was cheering them on. so you just for the audience, who is this person? i mean, this is somebody who is completely drunk, the kool-aid and, you know, is being called out and rightly what you are seeing is and again, i it's great that danielle sassoon is a

focal point for this, but it's important for people to know that it's not just her, that she is supported by a whole range of people, both prosecutors and fbi agents, ones who are in the offices now, and people like me who are sort of ex-pats, you know, who have who have graduated and see what's going on and say, this is in violation of their oaths of office. and that is why they're not going to participate. >> i mean, maybe this is reporting that ryan riley brought to us earlier in the week, emil bove, based on nbc news reporting and others, sought to have more january 6th cases brought to s.d.n.y and specifically to the counterterrorism unit. he also participated in a morning meeting, and i pushed our reporter on the story yesterday. and i wonder what your thoughts are on whether or not people have been fired for less

involvement in january. six cases than that? >> well, i think yes. all the even, you know, probationary employees at doj who were fired. i mean, those are people who were assigned to work on the cases on the january 6th cases. they didn't supervise them. they didn't advocate for a certain office to get them. i mean, emil was in a supervisory position that is, you know, it's very hierarchical. he wasn't just someone who was handed a case as those prosecutors were, as many of the fbi agents who are now on the hit list. so the hypocrisy is beyond explainable by beauvais. and look, he has become beauvais has become, you know, i think several of us have called him the hatchet man for doj and fbi. he's become the lightning rod, the focal point. and there is no question that he seems, quite frankly, out of

control and somewhat unhinged. and i don't know that he was always like that. i mean, he he actually had a, a good reputation as, as a prosecutor, a hard charging, you know, hard working prosecutor. but something has happened here. and his letter, which is a response to danielle's very eloquent rule citing letter, as you pointed out, that says i cannot in good faith, get up in front of a judge. right. that's what she is supposed it was being told to do, to go to a federal judge and say, this case should be dismissed. i cannot do that under the duty of candor. his response to that, the letter is, is, i mean, it's written not like someone who is running the department of justice, but someone who is, i don't know, running a high school or a kindergarten. it's just so juvenile, frankly, and emotional and not based in the rule of

law. and, you know, i think andrew made a really good point. that is, is i think, you know, i don't want to just base things on sort of what i'm hearing. but there really is this feeling, this movement right now amongst doj alums and fbi alums. and i'm not claiming to speak for all of them or even a lot of them. but the way that amel is being so blatant about his disregard for the law and just openly saying, we're doing this because we want adams to do x and we're firing people because they worked on a certain case, or at least, you know, looking to fire them. nobody, nobody even understands that whether they were a trump supporter, not a trump supporter, this isn't about politics. they just this this is not a remotely normal process, to put it mildly. >> let me tell you something else that i think i'm learning. for the first time, there was a

superseding indictment prepared to go against eric adams. so there was more criminal conduct that the office had uncovered. so not only is s.d.n.y being asked to drop the case against eric adams in exchange for immigration enforcement, which certainly makes you wonder what the other cities are getting if he's getting all this. but i want to read the section about the other evidence that the office uncovered about eric adams is now in the public domain. this is from danielle sassoon's letter to pam bondi. quote dismissing the case will amplify rather than abate, concerns about weaponization of the department of justice. despite mr. bové's observation that the directive to dismiss the case has been reached without assessing the strength of the evidence against adams, adams has already seized on the memo to publicly assert that he is innocent, and that the accusations against him were unsupported by the evidence and based only on fanfare and sensational claims. confidence in the department would best be restored by means well short of dismissal. as you know, our office is prepared to seek a

superseding indictment from a new grand jury. under my leadership, we have proposed a superseding indictment that would add an obstruction conspiracy count based on evidence that eric adams destroyed and instructed others to destroy evidence and provide false information to the fbi. and that would add further factual allegations regarding his anticipation in a fraudulent straw donor scheme. andrew weissman there's always more. >> so one of the things that emile beauvais's memo, the first one says is not only is the southern district to stop and to move for the dismissal, but without prejudice, as mimi and chris said, that there's something hanging over his head, so there's a very tight leash that he's kept on. but it also says you are to stop doing any investigation. it's like basically full halt. why would

you possibly do that? i mean, this is i mean, there's a reason that you are seeing this reaction in the southern district of new york. you're seeing it at main justice in the public integrity section. you're seeing it at the fbi up to and including the seventh floor, the leadership. and by the way, the leadership selected by the trump administration. so these are career people and at times, trump administration, selected career people who are pushing back. and is because it is so outside of the norm. i want to make sure people understand you do not see in any normal administration career, people quitting over. people are used to policy differences. people are used to having differences of opinion. when you. this is so rare. as i said, it's the nixon administration, the prior trump administration. and now just

weeks into this administration, you are seeing that people being really up in arms in an apolitical way because of essentially you have somebody who is a convicted criminal in the white house, an adjudicated convicted criminal in the white house, who is dismantling the department of justice. >> there's also something. >> just so preposterously disingenuous, even about. >> the cover story. >> of the quid pro. >> quo, which is that it's. >> about immigration enforcement cooperation, which itself, i think. >> is not actually that plausible. >> i mean, we have reporting that that there. >> is reporting. >> that adams brought together. >> his senior leadership. >> including his commissioners, the day before. >> or two days before. >> the bové letter comes out and tells them, i don't want to hear. anyone say one bad word about donald trump. like it's clearly a corrupt political deal. from the jump, they're barely, barely. hiding it. >> and i think. >> that fundamentally. >> the position. >> of trump, the position.

>> of bondy. >> and bové, and we'll see if this continues to be the position of bondy, which is. >> donald trump win. >> the election and the. justice department is his plaything. it is his tool. he can do. whatever he wants with it. and i think what comes through in this. letter from miss sassoon is that, like there are other legal constraints other than whether. >> you. >> want an election, there's a constitution of the united states and its protections. there is the ethical requirements. >> of the. >> bar and the guild. >> that you're. >> part of. there's the manuals. >> of the. >> department of justice, like there are other things. and their idea is we won the election. the law. doesn't apply to us. we get to do whatever we want. >> and it. >> is amazing to see someone with her pedigree and her background put. >> into writing. >> why that's not true. >> so you said something. i think it was a week before the election when we were sort of going over polling data, looking at the states, and it was very, very clear that the election was close and that if anything, trump was ahead. and you said, well, i think what i'll think about is that we still live in a

democracy, at least in that moment. and i think about that every day, because what you're articulating are the rules of a democracy. and i guess my question for you is, does it hold. >> you know, we're it's a lot of suspense right now. i mean, honestly, and i just think that people need to see people acting like this to find their own parts of civic courage, because that is really look, here's one way to think about this, and i think this relates to doge. they don't have enough people psychotically and slavishly loyal to donald trump to run the government. it's actually they just don't have the numbers. it's a big government. there's lots of stuff they need lots of lawyers in the department of justice, you know, pure numbers game. they can't do it, which is why they're trying to sort of scare people and roll people and run a bunch of 19 year olds through the various departments to look over their shoulders. but in the end, they don't have the numbers to do the kinds of

awful things they want to do. and so people standing. >> up for themselves. >> and for the constitution is really important. >> i think what's amazing is that there was a, i think, a sense maybe that some people had that trump might come back and be good, but trump isn't capable of being good, right? he's he's only interested in doing harm to the government because he's so angry at the government. and it's actually i mean, i think fred trump and mary trump have done the most to help me understand it. right there is there is a sadistic element to his personality that the wall didn't just have to be beautiful, it had to have spikes on the top and be black so it would burn, and that the department couldn't just dismiss the cases against him. anyone involved in them would have to be punished. i mean, punishment is so central. the problem with punishment is it's the least popular thing he ran on. >> yeah. >> and i don't think look, one of the things. >> that was heartening. >> is even after the election, there was polling on a bunch. >> of things that he had said he

was going to do during the. >> election and the stuff that was the most authoritarian and the least democratic imprisoned journalists, you know, pardoned january 6th. like, that stuff isn't popular, right? he won the election, but it doesn't mean that public opinion went away. and it doesn't mean the mechanics of politics have disappeared. and right now you are seeing what some. >> civic courage are. >> people who feel really, genuinely believe in fidelity to the constitution. what it can do. like this i don't know what's going to happen after this, but there's something happening now that wasn't happening four hours before because of the decision. >> and agency. i mean, agencies, the thing they don't want people to think they have. we wasted our time. >> no. >> you didn't. >> talk about it. but but it i mean, the whole lesson of it precludes me from asking you one question and then saying goodbye. but can can you promise to come back? >> yes, i'll. >> come back, have a conversation about it. and can you just tell me how you wrote a book while while we all do this? i barely like floss. >> on that grind set. >> amazing, amazing. all right, so we're not i mean, i think to be loyal to it, we can't.

>> i'll come back. >> i'll come back. do this next time. absolutely. it was such a focus. >> his power. i know. >> but it is trying to do it. >> that's the point. >> focus is power. we focus for the hour. i was happy to focus the hour. this is worthy of focus. you're the best. >> you're the best. it's such a treat to have you here at four. thank you so much for coming. thank you, mimi and andrew. thank you. please don't go far from your cameras. we may need you again in the next hour. we're going to turn to another big story. something that happened today. a man who's made a career out of attacking vaccines, their safety and their effectiveness and many, many other health measures. robert f kennedy jr was sworn in today to lead the nation's public health agencies and infrastructure. we'll talk about him in this new era next. >> i feel like. >> new sunglasses. >> like a brand new. pair of jeans. i feel like taking chances. i feel a lot. chances. i feel a lot. >> brand new.

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>> we deserve to. >> scroll hard. >> it's the lazy boy presidents. >> day sale. >> find the lazy spot. you've been missing, lazy boy. long live the lazy. >> sitting down the table at the next cabinet meeting. from emil bove will be robert f kennedy jr. he was sworn in as donald trump's secretary of health and human services. after a career and global infamy, really, of attacking vaccines and other health measures. he now leads america's public health infrastructure, which is already under assault by the trump administration. all but one republican senator voted for him to confirm him. and that was senator mitch mcconnell, who survived childhood polio. in his statement, mitch mcconnell said he refuses to condone the relitigation of proven cures. several of his republican colleagues expressed that same concern, but still voted to confirm robert kennedy today. this followed two days of confirmation hearings that proved to anyone watching that

kennedy is unprepared to answer some basic questions about science and the responsibilities of the job. joining us, former white house covid 19 response coordinator under president biden and the dean of brown university school of public health, doctor ashish jha, is here. plus, former obama white house policy director and msnbc medical contributor doctor kavita patel is here. doctor jha, there are all the reasons that he was dangerous to health. and mitch mcconnell articulates around vaccines, especially the polio vaccine. and there were the there was the indictment of his character from a family member, something i've never seen in my entire career. his cousin caroline called him a predator and blamed him for leading other family members toward the path of addiction. how did this happen? >> so, nicole, first of all, thanks for having me back. >> i mean, i think. >> the reality is. as many of us have been saying for a long time, robert f kennedy is wildly. unqualified for this job. and now that he is in the job, we will have to hold him

accountable because he is going to oversee the infrastructure that is necessary for protecting the health of the american people. this is not just about vaccines for kids. it's about medicare for the elderly, a program he seems to know nothing about. it's a whole host of things that we rely on. and unfortunately, this is a man who has proven to date that he is unpersuadable by science, evidence and data. obviously, we're all going to hope that that changes. >> what does that even look like? >> well. >> it's a very good question. i mean, you know, in the hearings he said, hey, look, if i see any data that vaccines are safe, i'll be open minded about it. like what data is he looking for? there is just so much data out there that he has continued to ignore. nothing about his hearings gave me. >> any. >> confidence that this is somebody who's going to change his behavior. after 30 years of casting doubt on proven cures, as senator mcconnell said, i think the consequences here

could be quite catastrophic. and we will all have to speak up and push back and work with reasonable members of congress across the political spectrum to make sure that he is held accountable if his policies lead to real harm to children. >> and we're going to have to go back to relying on folks like yourself. and so i hope you will answer our calls to be here. i'm sorry for the delay, as chris hayes sort of pulled back the curtain on our process. we were delayed in having this conversation because of breaking news. but we appreciate you talking to us, doctor jha. doctor patel, we i think, have have sat through the slow motion car wreck that is the right. sort of casting aspersions on known knowns when it comes to science and data and specifically vaccines. the tragedy is that if your kid is sick or your parent is sick, doesn't matter where you get your news and it doesn't matter who you voted for, you just want

them to be healthy and well again. what are your concerns sort of beyond any any of the fractured politics about people's ability to trust their doctors and trust the science? >> well, it's one of. >> those abilities. >> is being undermined. >> right now. we're in the. >> midst of. >> one of the. worst kind of flu epidemics i've ever seen. and there's a lot of questions. >> about why it's. >> happening, including some under vaccination in parts. >> of the country. nicole. but we've got deaths that are falling. >> it's affecting everyone. >> i bet everybody watching. >> this. >> knows at least 1 or 2 or. >> even. >> themselves. >> people that have been diagnosed with the flu. >> but as clinicians, we're flying blind a little bit because we can't. really trust that the. >> sources from the. >> cdc. >> especially when. >> they're being told not. >> to give us. >> information that we can't really trust what's. >> coming even. >> out of the government right now, because sometimes. >> some. >> weeks for. >> two weeks in january, there. >> was no information coming out of the government. >> so that. translates to a real lack of clarity, a real lack of trust. and unfortunately, that translates to lives being lost. so it's happening right now and

i feel for the staff. i mean, i can't tell you how many career staff have. >> been calling. >> and trying to understand what's going to happen to them. these are the same staff putting together our flu surveillance protocols. they're the ones that put the data up, and they're worried that they're on some list, or they have already been put on a list because of some sort of watchdog. so it's happening right now. and i think that, unfortunately, nicole, this isn't just a administration problem. if you take down this infrastructure or you put and undermine trust in the very thing that it didn't matter what politics we have as doctors that we depend on, then we've undermined several generations. >> it's such an important thing. we're going to have to have you back to explain this further, that the information that people turn to, to be able to tell the story as journalists and as doctors about how bad the flu is this season has been cut off. that spigot of information and trustworthy data has been cut off. we come back tomorrow and help us tell the rest of that story. >> it's the flu is still here.

>> thank you. my whole family was taken down over the weekend and monday. doctor patel, thank you. next for us is donald trump and vladimir putin. appear close to leaving ukraine out of talks about the future of ukraine. a new world order is taking shape before our eyes. how america is retreating from the global stage. not even one month into the new trump presidency. that the new trump presidency. that and much more news do i smell okay? [sniff] mhm. why are you shimmying? oh! unstopables has odor blocker so i'll feel fresh all day, even after a red eye. we all use unstopables. looks like he does too! smell unstopable. the highlight of the day is mahomes getting the new iphone 16 at t-mobile. it's built for apple intelligence. hustle down to t-mobile like a dog chasing a squirrel... chasing a nut! at t-mobile get iphone 16 on us. where ya headed? susan: where am i headed? am i just gonna take what the markets gives me? no. i can do some research.

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obtained a letter written to attorney general pam bondi from acting u.s. attorney danielle sassoon. she is the acting head of the new york office. she resigned a few hours ago after refusing the order to dismiss the eric adams case from acting deputy attorney general amiel beauvais. it is remarkable. it is filled with a bevy of new allegations. we should note that parallels have been drawn to the saturday night massacre, but we are not able at this moment to confirm if pam bondi has read the letter. sassoon writes that the order to dismiss the adams case was, quote, inconsistent with my ability and duty to prosecute federal crimes without fear or favor and to advance good faith arguments before the courts. she also reveals that prosecutors were prepared to bring a superseding indictment more charges, more crimes, accusing of mayor eric adams, charging him with an obstruction

conspiracy count for destroying evidence. miss sassoon also reveals that she was in a meeting with amiel beauvais and eric adams, lawyers, and of that meeting she says this quote i attended a meeting on january 31st, 2025 with mr. beauvais adams, counsel and members of my office. adams attorneys repeatedly urged what amounted to a quid pro quo, indicating that adams would be in a position to assist with the department's enforcement priorities only if the indictment were dismissed. mr. beauvais admonished a member of my team who took notes during that meeting and directed the collection of the notes at the meeting's conclusion in just the last hour. mayor eric adams posted that he had met with trump border czar tom homan, and will be issuing an executive order regarding ice operations in new york city. as for amiel beauvais, he has accepted the resignation of the person heading s.d.n.y. that's acting u.s. attorney danielle sassoon. and in his response to her, says that other prosecutors who

worked on the cases have been put on administrative leave for also refusing to dismiss the case. we should point out that two other attorneys at doj who were asked to dismiss the case from main justice from the public integrity unit, have also resigned today, joining our coverage from outside the southern district of new york offices is msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin and msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann. my wingman is back with us. lisa, what's the latest? >> nicole, as you were just describing, the letter from danielle sassoon is really the latest entry and what you correctly described as echoes of a saturday night massacre. in addition to the two attorneys here at s.d.n.y who have been placed on administrative leave, and the two lawyers at main justice from the public integrity section and the criminal division who have resigned, we are hearing some rumblings that there may be other resignations along the way. that may be because there

were four prosecutors at the department of justice, and specifically at the southern district, who were working on the adams case. only two of them are named. and the memo from april bovie to danielle sassoon. i also want to flag that one of those lawyers, hagan scotten, is someone who himself has stalwart conservative credentials. there's been a lot made about the fact that danielle sassoon is a card carrying member of the federalist society, that she clerked for, justice scalia, for example. but hagen scott is very similarly situated. he is a veteran, and he clerked on the appeals court in d.c. for then judge brett kavanaugh before he was elevated to the supreme court. he then clerked for chief justice john roberts. i heard today that if danielle sassoon had not been selected to be the acting u.s. attorney for the southern district, the natural other choice would have been hagan scotten, who was her co-chief of appeals before she herself was elevated. the fact that hagan scotten has gone from being sort of a darling of the

conservative movement, and someone that the trump administration thought that they could trust, so much so that he was their backup choice to be the acting u.s. attorney. now, to going on administrative leave is a stunning turnabout. i also want to tell you, my phone is blowing up with texts from former federal prosecutors that i know, including many in the southern district and all of them to a fault, are unprintable because people are telling me that what has happened today is a complete and utter blank show, that emil bove is blanking crazy, and that this is absolutely that blank there. the fact that these are so unprintable, i think, reflects the widespread outrage among people in the federal prosecutorial community about what has happened here, and also the fact that the trump administration continues to underestimate a maxim that in the southern district, prosecutors hold dear. and that's prosecutor before politics. meaning you check your

politics at the door. no matter what they are, you uphold the integrity of the office and you back up your colleagues and danielle sassoon. today, instead of disappointing, many in the office, decided that she would stand with her line prosecutors and she would back them up in an investigation and prosecution that they all insisted to her, was righteous. nicole. >> let me come back to her letter. andrew weissman danielle sassoon writes this i attended a meeting on january 11th, 2025 with mr. bové, with eric adams, counsel and members of my office. adams attorneys repeatedly urged what amounted to a quid pro quo, indicating that adams would be in a position to assist with the department's enforcement priorities only if the indictment were dismissed. is that i don't know who his lawyers are, but is that legal? >> well, you know, that's the

offer. the part that's improper. is beauvais accepting it? in other words, the they're saying this is something he can do for you. and beauvais should have said to that there is no way that that is something that we're going to do. we're going to decide your case on the merits. and so it's important to know the sham reasons. sham is my words. the sham reasons that beauvais gave for this direction. he gave two reasons. one is he said that this case needs to be dismissed because it was brought too close to the primary. and danielle sassoon goes chapter and verse through why they complied completely with every department of justice rule about when you can bring these cases and there is no department of justice rule policy law that forbids a case from being brought nine months

before a primary. so that was just a fictitious statement on amiel beauvais part. so that's argument one was just a flat out, just a just a paper tiger. the second reason was that this idea that he is going to be able to better enforce immigration rules, and so a that looks exactly like a quid pro quo. and one of the things that danielle sassoon says in response to that is one, we're not supposed to be doing that at the department. we're not supposed to be influencing and deciding a criminal case and what to do in a criminal case to better a political outcome one way or the other. but the other is it doesn't even make any sense. why would he be better able to carry out immigration policies with an indictment hanging over his head that is pending, or a case that is dismissed without prejudice, where the indictment could be brought later? i mean, in other words, just saying even the

argument doesn't make any sense. even if you put aside that it looks like a quid pro quo. so that's sort of the details that she goes through to say emil bove's arguments to me about why this should be dismissed are obviously, obviously a ruse and fictitious and it's clearly just a political thing. and this is something, you know, it was chris called out in the last segment was saying, look, it's obvious what this is, is this is the quid pro quo, which is, you know, essentially the mayor sucks up to the president and the president saying, you know, get rid of the case, but we're going to keep you on a short leash. and if you don't do what we say, the indictment can be returned. final note, you know, kathy hochul, the governor of new york, still has the ability to remove eric adams. and as somebody who lives in new york city, i mean, we have a mayor who is completely conflicted now because he has this this hanging over his head and he, you know,

no one really voted for him to be at the beck and call of the president. and so, you know, i do think that there really needs to be more focus on kathy hochul and her thinking, because she's sort of trying to avoid having to really sort of take the bull by the horns and make a decision here. but she has the ability to remove him. and if you read danielle's letter, she really lays out a corruption scheme here. and that is about how he obtained the bové letter seeking the dismissal. and so there is a political remedy here that she could impose. with respect to the, you know, the mayor of the city of new york, being somebody who is now really at the beck and call and under the thumb of the president of the united states, who was not voted in as mayor of the city of new york.

>> let me read more. danielle sassoon's letter. about what this puts in motion to you, lisa rubin. she writes, quote, it is a breathtaking and dangerous precedent to reward eric adams opportunistic and shifting commitments on immigration and other policy matters with dismissal of a criminal indictment. nor will a court likely find that such an improper exchange is consistent with the public interest. she names some, goes through some some case law, and then, she says, describing a prosecutor's acceptance of a bribe as a clear example of a dismissal that should not be granted as contrary to the public interest. i mean, she's now put on paper something that will live forever. and i wonder, i mean, how does the trump justice department proceed in dismissing the eric adams case now that this is all in writing and obviously available to any judge? >> well, i'm glad you asked that question, nicole, because the trump justice department has yanked the case away from the southern district. that's one of

the other unusual things that they've done today, in addition to putting certain attorneys on administrative leave and witnessing the resignations of others, they've also now put themselves in a position where they've told us on their district, this is no longer your case. they removed it from their supervision, put it at the public integrity unit at main justice, which andrew well knows is the department's headquarters in washington, d.c, and that's what prompted the resignation of those two people in washington. they were basically saying, we're not touching this either. and so it's unclear to me who is going to actually submit a motion on behalf of the department of justice to dismiss this indictment without prejudice, as emil bove directed danielle sassoon to do. we still haven't seen a motion like that hit the docket at all. and as danielle sassoon references in the letter that she sent, it's not entirely clear that judge dale ho, who oversees this case, would grant it in any event. now, you're probably asking yourself if the department of

justice is not willing to prosecute a case. does a judge have any room to maneuver to push back on that? we've seen one fairly recent example of how that might play itself out. when the department tried to dismiss the michael flynn case. obviously, in sort of different circumstances. michael flynn had pled guilty by that point. and at that point, there was a judge, emmet sullivan, in d.c. federal court who appointed someone else to basically stand in the shoes of the federal government and take what would have been its position in defending the plea, because the department of justice was no longer willing to stand behind a case that it felt so strongly about, that it reached a plea agreement in writing, sat there while the defendant allocated himself, meaning that he he confessed to the facts of the indictment. we are in uncharted waters here, nicole. it's not clear what's going to happen next, and it's not clear what judge ho is going to do either. he may not have ultimately the room to say, i'm going to

continue to prosecute this case, but he also has some latitude to do some fact finding of his own. as to some of the things that danielle sassoon lays out in her letter. >> let me share something that just came across our desk. eric adams lawyer, one of them at least, is named alex. shapiro. he responded to sassoon's letter with the following statement. quote, the idea that there was a quid pro quo is a total lie. we offered nothing in the department, asked nothing of us. i don't know what amounted to means. we were asked if the case had any bearing on national security and immigration enforcement, and we truthfully answered it did. andrew weissman, what is that? oh, let me share one more piece of information in an oval office meeting that has happened since we've been on the air. donald trump was meeting with the prime minister of india, and he was asked if he had directed doj to dismiss the case against eric adams, and he said he knew nothing about it. andrew. andrew

weissman, your thoughts on on both those reactions? >> sure. so, you know, i'm i'm going to pick up on something lisa said. and lisa's like pointed out something really interesting, which is in order for this case to be dismissed first, some prosecutor is going to have to put their name, his her, their name on a piece of paper and tell this judge that they'd like it dismissed. and that is a southern district of new york, judge. the department of justice. they can pull the prosecutors off the case, but they cannot pull the judge off the case. so that judge, who is in the southern district of new york, where the bench is going to, i think, be very much looking at all of this. and if they think that danielle sassoon has been treated shabbily and she resigned because she could not stomach doing something against the law, they could easily have her back. and what that could result in is a hearing where the judge wants to

hear what happened. and nicole, you just read from defense counsel saying that they dispute the characterization. well, one of the things that opens the door to is the judge saying, fine, i want to hear from amiel beauvais himself. i want to hear this letter. i want to hear what these reasons are. and have him say why he's not going forward, to see whether these are pretextual reasons. if there's a dispute about what happened in a meeting, i can have witnesses called and at least is right at the end of the day, if he thinks that there should be somebody else assigned. he actually has the authority, although it's limited authority to appoint a special prosecutor to stand in for the department of justice. and so this is not over yet. remember, we do not yet have a prosecutor who is willing to stand up and sign this, which, again, to remind you of the saturday night massacre. and that sort of trickled down until

there was a prosecutor who was willing to say, yes, i will fire archibald cox, the special counsel in the nixon case. and we have not seen that yet so far. we see resignations and we may see, as lisa pointed out, we may see a lot more, but ultimately a judge that. stay tuned, because this is something that could very much end up in a very embarrassing hearing to the leadership of the trump administration and the department of justice about really asking, are these pretextual reasons or are these true reasons. >> so important? lisa rubin, i saw you on the air, and we're so grateful that you hopped off set and went down there. if do we know if danielle sassoon has left the building or if she's still in the office? i mean, what is happening behind you? >> so, nicole, where i'm standing right now is 26, in

front of 26 federal plaza. that's where the fbi is headquartered. there are some federal immigration offices here as well, but it's also where the u.s. court of international trade is. and i mentioned that because when the southern district of new york has meetings of all of its prosecutors, they can't fit everybody into any particular room at one saint andrews plaza, which is around the corner. that's their headquarters. so they frequently convene here at the u.s. court of international trade, because there's a room large enough to fit all of them. we have some reason to believe that danielle sassoon may be in 26 federal plaza, whether that's because she gathered all of her staff together as an opportunity to say goodbye to them and to explain her reasons for her resignation, or whether she is simply turning in her devices as a, you know, as a function of her resignation. we don't know. we have not yet seen her leave the building at either one saint andrews plaza or here at 26 federal plaza. but i can tell you, everybody is eagerly

awaiting a glimpse of danielle sassoon, who is suddenly the woman of the hour. she will be heralded as a hero, i think, by the new york legal community for doing something that wasn't necessarily in her own political or career interest, but standing up for the prerogatives of the southern district, which, as you know, has long been jokingly called the sovereign district because they have so prided themselves on their independence from the main department of justice, but also, more importantly, from the political winds that shift in this country regularly. >> really, really important. and i would just say, if you if you see her or if you learn anything about her whereabouts, just wave your arms. we'll get you both right back on the air. lisa rubin and andrew weissman, thank you so, so much. when we come back, how donald trump is actively and proactively reshaping the world order, aligning the united states of america with the world's strong men and dictators against our

democratic allies. we'll have that conversation next. and later, a confirmation hearing today for trump's pick to lead a cabinet department he wants to shut down. our friend and colleague alex wagner has brand new reporting on the rising fears inside the department of education, which may very well be next on trump's demo list. nice to meet ya. be next on trump's demo list. deadline white house my name is david. i've been a pharmacist for 44 years and i'm from flowery branch, georgia. when i have customers come in, i recommend prevagen. number one, because it's effective. does not require a prescription. and i've been taking it quite a while myself and i know it works. and i love it when the customers come back in and tell me, "david, that really works so good for me." makes my day. prevagen. for your brain.

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obligations. >> get the real value from your life insurance when you need it. with abacus. >> we're going to start with breaking news on capitol hill. >> mounting questions. >> over the future. >> of tiktok in. >> the us. >> president trump has promised to carry out the largest deportation force in american history. >> reporting from. >> philadelphia. >> el paso. >> in the palisades. >> virginia, from. >> msnbc. >> world headquarters here. >> in new york. >> a country in russia's position could allow them just in their position could allow them to join nato. i don't see that happening. >> when putin says that. >> he really. wants peace, do you believe him? >> yeah, i do. i believe he

wants peace. i'd love to have him back. i think it was a mistake to throw him out. look, it's not a question of liking russia or not liking russia. it was the g8. and, you know, i said, what are you doing, you guys? all you're talking about is russia and you. they should be sitting at the table. i think putin would love to be back. >> stunning, stunning comments coming from an american president sitting in the oval office today. president of the united states making remarks that sound much more like they were written by folks sitting in the kremlin than the man or woman elected to sit behind the resolute desk. donald trump's comments come after he spoke with russian president vladimir putin, where the two leaders discussed starting negotiations to end the war in ukraine immediately. the call was a shocking development that left our european friends and allies scrambling. the european official telling nbc news that nato allies were, quote, blindsided. germany's defense minister said the call was regrettable. france's defense minister said this, quote, this

was a real moment of political truth and warned that, quote, peace through weakness could have dramatic security implications in the region. but for russia, the call was cause for celebration. it was a recognition by the united states of america that it hadn't enjoyed for years now. following the call, trump's former national security adviser john bolton said this, quote, they're drinking vodka straight out of the bottle in the kremlin tonight, end quote. and even though trump called ukrainian president zelensky after he talked to putin, there are major concerns that ukraine will be left out of whatever negotiations actually happen. a worry trump did not alleviate when asked about it yesterday. >> do you. >> view ukraine as an equal member of this peace process? >> it's an interesting question. i think they have to make peace. their people are being killed, and i think they have to make peace. >> don't you? >> i said that was not a good war to go into. and i think they have to make peace. that's what

i think. >> it wasn't a yes. wow. joining us now, new york times diplomatic correspondent michael crowley. also joining us, professor of history at new york university, ruth ben-ghiat is here. michael crowley i've heard the word. neville chamberlain like appeasement. tell me what you're picking up from national security sources. >> yeah. >> well, nicole. >> that is one of the. >> big reactions. >> that we're hearing, which is, you know. >> head scratching over president. >> trump's approach. >> to this negotiation, which. >> is. >> to say. >> that from the outset, he is. making key concessions to the russians over the fate of ukraine. and one of them is. >> to say that the us is dropping. >> its support for. ukraine's eventual. >> membership in nato, which is a long standing us position. you also heard secretary of defense hegseth say that it was

unrealistic. >> to expect. >> that ukraine would return to its pre 2014 borders, which not only includes land that was taken by russia in the invasion that occurred in february of 2022, but really refers to the annexation of crimea in early 2014. so essentially saying that we're giving up on crimea now. you might say that it was going to be very difficult to get crimea back, but at least it was something that you could negotiate with, as is nato membership. but i think there's a sense that when trump comes out of the gate like this, making big concessions, people are wondering, how much does he really care about ukraine's interests? i mean, in general, beyond that particular point, nicole, there's just a kind of a lack of empathy or concern from president trump when he talks about this conflict and talks about ukraine for the fate of ukraine. it's really his focus is overwhelmingly on the us russia relationship, on his

relationship with vladimir putin, his ability to get a deal done. and you just hear very little about what it means for ukraine, how it looks for ukraine and what how much he cares about the future of ukraine. >> i mean, ruth, it's not just about ukraine. it's about us national security. here's donald trump's former national security adviser, john bolton, making those points. >> this is a palpable. >> harm to. >> american national. >> security, because what. hegseth and trump. did today was not only blow up the. nato position on ukraine, they blew up a thing called the belavezha accords that ukraine, belarus and russia signed in december of 1991 that broke up the soviet union alonghe lines of the internal republics. so it means that not only is unprovoked aggression by russia against ukraine now, okay. every other former republican, the soviet union is vulnerable to the same thing without any indication

that the us will do anything about it. >> you know, my sort of consumption of your book and, and tim snyder's and this affinity and this reflexive attraction to autocrats is predicated on isolationism, right? or it never happens without americans turning inward. and i, i, i wonder what you think about whether or not there'll be any public outcry when americans start to see ukrainians suffer at the hands of vladimir putin's russia. >> i mean, they've been suffering at the hands of vladimir putin's russia. and president trump had an interesting he said in the clip you showed it wasn't a good war to go into. he did not say it wasn't a good decision by vladimir putin to have this aggression against ukraine. and,

you know, i mean, president trump is very clear. he is he has he has a long history of sympathy. for vladimir putin. and he has repeatedly blamed former president biden for provoking putin by supporting, you know, ukraine's nato bid to join nato. and this is classic kremlin thinking. president trump often echoes kremlin talking points, as does tulsi gabbard, who was just confirmed as his director of national intelligence. these are people who truly see democracies as the problem. and i don't know why people are so surprised. president trump during the campaign was very clear in june in virginia at a rally, he said, if you have a smart president, they're not your enemies. you're going to make them do great. and he was referring to russia, china and north korea. he has a

long history of sympathy toward autocratic leaders. these are his role models. and so this isn't an isolationism. this isn't a retreat. this is the american people should be prepared that under trump, they are going to be allies with murderous dictators whose countries are criminal entities. russia is a kleptocracy. so there's no surprise if you study autocrats in this very regrettable turn of affairs. >> ambassador mcfaul has joined our conversation. former ambassador to russia and msnbc international affairs analyst. ambassador mcfaul, your your thoughts today on what is one strategically inept negotiating in public with vladimir putin? two morally bankrupt, leaving our friends and allies in ukraine in the cold. and three being compared to chamberlain's policy of appeasement.

>> well, the call i'm in munich right now. speaking of the last munich agreement. >> and i can. >> tell you, speaking to european leaders and speaking to inian lders today, everybody here is in shock. they know, they knew and they studied what president trump said. but they. >> did not. >> believe that he would begin this negotiation, which. >> by the. >> way, the ukrainians, supported. >> by giving. >> putin everything he wanted before the negotiation started. just to. >> echo what you. >> just said. >> i mean. >> i. >> negotiated with the russians. i negotiated several different treaties with them. >> and i. >> can tell you that if you give them something, they're going to put it in their pocket and. ask for more. >> and so. >> to say. >> ukraine cannot be a. >> member of nato and ukraine needs to give territory, and american. troops won't be part of any peacekeeping. those are three. giant concessions that they said in public before the negotiations started. and i can tell you that the ukrainians and other european leaders here in munich are in shock.

>> what happens next? ambassador mcfaul. >> what happens next is president zelensky will show up here. he'll he should have his bilateral. >> his. >> bilateral meeting with the vice president and other people on the trump team. and i. >> my hope. >> and i know it's the hope of the ukrainians and europeans as well, is that they'll begin to negotiate with the negotiators about how you go about doing business. with vladimir putin. number one, you don't meet and do a deal with the ukrainians. not part of it. number two, you don't do a deal without the europeans part of it, expecting that they're going to play all kinds of roles that you have in mind for them. and number three. i think there's some hope that after this bad start that. >> they might get into. >> a better rhythm that ultimately will be decided. what what. >> at. >> the end. of the day, the negotiation is between. russia and ukraine. it's not between trump and putin.

>> and i. >> hope that their. expectation is that they might. educate the american counterparts that will be here tomorrow about. >> that fact. >> that is. >> a fact. there is no deal unless the ukrainians sign up to the deal, and they're not going to sign up to a deal that president trump just negotiates with putin and then sends them an email. i guarantee you they will not accept that. >> you know, michael crowley, the history of the us putin relationship from the first term had characters like bob corker in it. had sanctions against russia that were passed by, i think 9899 to nothing in the us senate. the us senate has been remade even months ago. republican speaker mike johnson helped ukrainians viewed him as somewhat helpful in getting the aid package through. the republican led senate is now just a satellite. mar-a-lago, sort of like the washington version of trump's club sycophants. the house is even

more feverishly loyal to donald trump. how does the shift and the sort of abdication of any congressionally understood or mandated role of the us congress, change the calculations among our allies? >> well, it's a huge change, and it's a huge change. president trump is largely unbound, you know, early in his first term. congress passed a package of pretty strong sanctions against russia. overwhelmingly, i think close to unanimously. i can't remember the exact cause. i think it might have been one of the assassinations or assassination attempts that russia carried out overseas, possibly the one in great britain. but in any case, these were really stiff sanctions, and i believe that president trump wouldn't even have been able to sustain a veto because of opposition in congress. that's not the case anymore, nicole. and you just don't have some of the you know, it's a word we use

all the time, but you don't have some of the guardrails that existed before some of the people around president trump who were there in that first term. i think about jim mattis, for instance, who were real russia hawks and were pushing back on these policies. you know, i do think about mike. i'm sorry. i was going to say mike pompeo, who did push back some. now you have marco rubio as secretary of state. marco rubio was a real russia hawk, quite tough on russia. you haven't heard that rhetoric from him since he was nominated for the position of secretary of state. he has been president, trump said he'll be part of the negotiating team. be interesting to see how rubio carries out that job. but, you know, you're not really seeing signs of dissent from him. so president trump is unbound. there's not really a big check. there's not really any check on his desire to normalize relations with russia, to embrace vladimir putin and to do a deal like this. and that's a big change from that first term. and that's why i think this time things are

going to look very different. >> incredibly ominous. and i know that the things i'm sure you're all hearing on background and off the record are as ominous as the things i'm hearing. michael crowley, ambassador michael mcfaul, and ruth ben-ghiat, thank you so much. when we come back, our friend and colleague alex wagner will be here with brand new reporting. she has from inside the department of education, as donald trump calls for its demise. >> consumer cellular is lowering the price for those 50 and up. >> get two unlimited lines for. $30 each. >> that's just $60 a month. so switch. >> to the carrier ranked number one in network. >> coverage satisfaction. >> now new customers get your second month free. >> when you switch my eyes, their dry, uncomfortable looking for extra hydration. now there's blink nutri tears. it works differently than drops. blink nutri tears is a once daily supplement clinically proven to hydrate from within, helping your eyes produce more of their own tears. to promote lasting,

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>> what about. >> educational programing centered around specific ethnic and racial experiences? my son is in a public school. he takes a class called african american history. if you're running an african american history class, could you perhaps be in violation of this court order of this, of this executive order? >> i'm not quite certain. >> and i'd like to look into it. further and get back to you on that. >> so there's a possibility. there's a possibility you're saying that public schools that run african american history classes, right. this is a class that has been taught in public schools for decades, could lose federal funding if they continue to teach african american history. no. >> that's not what i'm saying. i'm saying that i would like to take a look at these programs and fully understand the breadth of the executive order and get back to you on that. >> i think you're going to have a lot of educators and a lot of principals and administrators scrambling right now.

>> this is where we are. it was a chilling moment. it happened today in the confirmation hearing for donald trump's pick to lead the department of education. that was the former world wrestling entertainment ceo, linda mcmahon, leaving the door open today for schools to lose federal funding for teaching american history. it's just the latest attack on education and history and diversity in schools. earlier this month, nbc news reported that education department employees were placed on leave after taking diversity training during trump's first term. our friend and colleague alex wagner sat down with one of the employees impacted. >> i've just. >> made sure that the trainings were compliant, meaning people with disabilities would be able to view the presentations without any issues, and that i provided transcripts, made sure captions were on, and things of that nature. also making sure that there weren't any flashing,

sudden flashing pictures for people who may be prone to epilepsy or seizures. things. that's what i was concerned about. accessibility. >> that's what accessibility is. joining me at the table is my colleague and friend, msnbc anchor alex wagner, host of the new podcast trumpland. just i feel like what you bring back gets darker every week. >> yeah. >> i mean, the breadth. >> of this. >> gutting of the. >> federal government. >> is staggering. >> once. you get. >> to the actual employees. >> right. >> there are two things. >> that. >> really stood out to. >> me about that woman's experience. one. >> she took and. >> participated in these. >> trainings under the. >> trump administration. right. >> what is. >> more orwellian. >> than the government saying you should take these trainings, then taking them and then being. >> targeted and put on administrative. >> leave because you took them. >> as in. >> the second administration, right? so there's that piece of it. but i thought it was so important to hear about what the

controversial sort of woke agenda she was part of is it's putting closed captioning on training sessions, making sure that epileptics don't have seizures because they're flashing lights. i mean, in what world is that part of a divisive woke agenda that's splitting the country into? i mean, this is just practical measures that are taken to make sure that people with disabilities can participate in the world. i mean, i don't imagine that most americans would take issue with that in the way that chris african-american history. that's not part of a woke liberal agenda. that's teaching, as you say, american history. and yet these are the changes that are being made by the trump administration and the doge team. >> and trump quotes martin luther king in his inaugural address. so he does. he is are we erasing all that? >> well, what's interesting about the mcmahon hearing is at one point, she's asked a question about whether, you know, the legacy and history of martin luther king can be taught in schools. and she sort of dismisses it as, oh, well, of course, i mean, i believe in martin luther king, who has now

become, you know, of interest to the right as they talk about a colorblind society. ironically, i would say. but the fact is, you know, it is not a big leap to go from not teaching african american history to no longer teaching martin luther king and the door, regardless of what any of these people say in their confirmation hearings, the door is open. >> what else did. >> you hear? so one of the things that i think is really important, as we talk about what this dea stuff is, is to put it in the proper historical context. some of these employees who i believe have been wrongly placed on administrative leave by the trump administration, the department of education, have sought legal counsel. and i spoke with one of the lawyers who's representing a number of these employees. his name is subodh chandra, and this is for the podcast. he had, i think, probably the most essential understanding of what trump is really trying to do here. so let's take a listen to what he had to say. >> it's almost a perversion of. language where they are trying to demonize something that, at the end of the day, is just

anti-discrimination activity. that's what it is. it's people who are participating on a committee to ensure that the department doesn't discriminate in hiring, promotions, assignments, how people are treated. and there's just nothing inherently wrong with that unless you're a white supremacist. i mean, or a nazi. so it's bizarre. and my contention is that it violates title seven of the civil rights act of 1964, which bars discrimination in employment and bars retaliation against people for opposing discrimination in employment. >> this is where this is all going. this is going to the 1964 civil rights act. as part of the podcast, i interviewed chris rufo, who is trump's, i think, consiglieri if not in an official capacity in a substantive one on all this anti-woke stuff. and he takes issue with the scope and the breadth of the 1964 civil rights act as it is practiced now. he thinks it's it is being it has

been used as a tool for liberal overreach. it has been used to justify racial preferences, which is what he calls, you know, anti-discrimination efforts in another name. but i think that's where we're headed on this, right? what kind of society we want, whether the sort of civil rights progress of the last half century is a direction we continue moving towards, or whether we literally try to roll back the clock on this. and i believe that the right wing, you know, generals who are in charge of this movement absolutely intend on taking the civil rights law of 1964 back to the supreme court and seeing how the chips fall. >> it's unbelievable. i want to i want to ask you about all of your stops. i have to sneak in a quick break and ask them all together for us. of course. okay. we'll be right back. >> what was it. >> like when trump got elected? what was the i mean, what was the reaction, do you think about ice coming to knock on your front door? >> t for president trump's first

100 days. alex wagner travels to the story to talk with people most impacted by the policies. >> were you there on january? >> i was. >> there on january 6th. >> did it surprise you. >> that. >> you were. >> fired. >> given how resolutely nonpartisan. >> you have been? >> and for more in-depth (vo) is your asthma rescue a dinosaur? >> and for more in-depth repo airsupra is the only asthma rescue inhaler fda-approved to treat symptoms and help prevent asthma attacks. airsupra should not be used as a maintenance treatment for asthma. get medical help right away if your breathing doesn't improve or worsens or for serious allergic reactions, like rash, mouth or tongue swelling, trouble breathing or swallowing, or chest pain. using airsupra more than prescribed could be life-threatening. serious side effects include increased risk of thrush or infections, or heart problems like faster heart rate and higher blood pressure. ask your doctor if airsupra is right for you. (man) got one more antoine. (vo) with usps ground advantage, it's like you're with us every step of the way. ♪

(man) cooool. ♪ (man) right on time! (vo) stay in the know. from your dock... to their door. hate and extremism in the united states are on the rise. in fact, there are more than 1400 hate groups in our country today. groups that vilify others for their race, religion, sexual orientation or gender identity. and extremist groups that spread dangerous conspiracies and encourage violent acts. this is a dark chapter in our history, but it can be rewritten. since 1971, the southern poverty law center has been fighting has been fighting hate and defending justice and equality in the u.s. but we can't do it without support from people like you. please call now or go online to helpfighthate.org to become a friend of the center. for just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day, you can support the fight for justice.

in recent years, hate crimes against black, jewish and lgbtq americans have nearly doubled across the us. this violence has no place in a just society. hate and extremism are dividing us like never before, but together we can protect our communities and continue providing no cost legal help to those impacted by hate violence. so please call or go to helpfighthate.org and give just $19 a month. when you use your credit card, you'll receive the special fight hate t-shirt to show your standing up for civil rights. the fate of our country is in our hands. we can and will build a more just future. but it won't come without a fight. that's why we need your support today. southern poverty law center staff are in the courts defending freedom and in the halls of power, advocating for change and working hard to prevent recruitment

into extremist groups throughout the united states. together, we can push back against this wave of hate and extremism. become a friend of the center today. call or go online to helpfighthate.org right now. to figure out why you don't come out here early, or i always want you here for the whole time. but here's what i want to ask you. so we came on the air two hours ago with the news that danielle allen, the acting head of s.d.n.y. in a rather extraordinary standoff or showdown with emil bove, had resigned. you've been on the ground, sort of where the bulldozers are hitting usaid and the department of education and the institutions. how do you explain to people who may not yet understand why the destruction of the federal government and the sort of ripping apart these agencies from atop the executive branch where trump sits? why does it matter? >> i mean, this is a civics lesson, right? and i do think

part of the way we got here is by under-resourcing the teaching of civics and the like, the sort of the, the fact that we are knit all together in this democracy and the idea of civic duty. right. that's a bigger problem for american society. but as a journalist, i mean, first of all, i think it begins with talking granularly about these people and what they do. but it is a challenge. nicole. we're talking about a federal bureaucracy, which by its virtue, by virtue of definition, is faceless, right? >> so is doge, right? they want to replace it with a sketchier one. >> and i think you can i will say the people on the ground are not going quietly into this. good night. they are retaining counsel. the igs that i talked to. who? the inspector generals who were fired by trump unlawfully are taking the cases to court. the court system is going to be is filled and will continue to be filled with stories and conflicts that underscore the depravity of this moment. right? the but the reality is, there's so much happening so quickly all the

time that it requires diligence and it requires curiosity. and most of all, it requires empathy. like we have to cultivate a sense that we are part of the same shared destiny in this, in these united states. and i and i do think we lost. we've lost that a little bit along the way. i think that's how trump got to power. and that just because something doesn't affect us doesn't mean it doesn't matter. because ultimately the chickens do come home to roost. the people who dismantle the department of education, those effects will be felt on the ground in red states that voted for trump. the people that are firing inspector generals, those we felt across these cabinet agencies at the real person level. right. it just isn't happening right now. but that doesn't mean you can turn and look away. i mean, i don't feel like i have a great answer for you on this. i think this is the challenge of our time as journalists in this moment. >> well, and i think that it is impossible to hate up close for most people. absolutely sociopaths. and so i think i had the administrator of usaid on who was bush's usaid head. and he said in one month he was able to turn the agency from the clinton era programs to the bush era programs. it's also dispelling the lies about these

people. they're not partizan. if you work in the bureaucracy, you are committed to the mission of whoever wins every four years. >> yeah. well, and can i just say, like, this is why it's important to play the sound of someone who's, like, working to put subtitles and captioning on, on on information sessions. these are not. >> know. >> the rules. these are people that are just trying to do the right thing. they don't have an agenda. they're not part of a liberal mob that's trying to tear down what we think is right and good about this country. these are people who've devoted their lives to our democracy, and we can't forget that. >> is their fight an inspiration? is it something that we can learn? >> absolutely. you know, we sit, we have the luxury of being apart from the struggle on the ground, you know, and like there are thousands of people whose livelihoods, whose whose sort of, you know, their professional interests are completely in limbo. they have no idea where they're going. they're scared to use their names. these are just random government employees who feel like the hammer of the executive branch could come down on them in specific fashion at any moment, like to live like

that. that is not what this country is about. >> and i don't know that that's what everyone who voted for trump thought they were getting. >> i don't think so either. >> i love that you're doing this. i love that you're here. please come more often and earlier. >> i love. >> chris hayes. >> here. i know it's. >> a dream tour out here. family, family dinner all being snacks. alex wagner, thank you very much. the podcast is called trump land with dispatches and original reporting from wherever she's traveling all around the country. seeing firsthand and talking to and reporting out the effects of donald trump's second presidency, his policies and promises. scan the qr code on your screen right now, or search trump land wherever you listen trump land wherever you listen to your podcast. baby: liberty! mom: liberty mutual is all she talks about since we saved hundreds by bundling our home and auto insurance. baby: liberty! biberty: hey kid, it's pronounced "biberty." baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: bi-be-rty! baby: biberty! biberty: and now she's mocking me. very mature. mom: hey, that's enough you two!

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and find out how to get the new samsung galaxy s25+ on us with a qualifying trade in. don't wait, call, click or visit an xfinity store today. tv to get $50 instantly in credits when you play your first $5 lineup. >> thank you so much for letting us into your homes. we are so grateful. the beat with ari melber starts right now. hi ari, have a great show. >> thank you. >> nicole. >> welcome to the beat. >> i'm ari melber. we begin with. >> this breaking news. >> major and significa