on five nights. >> a week. >> now is the time. >> so we're going to do it. >> settle in the rachel maddow show weeknights at nine on msnbc. >> hi, everyone. >> it's 4:00 in new york. integrity is contagious. those words were uttered by. >> former u.s. attorney for the

southern district of new york, david kelly, at this table just a couple days ago on this program. and now the men and women of the office, he once led the legendary southern district of new york. >> are proving. >> him correct. >> one after. >> the other. after the other, after the other. the federal prosecutors on the front lines of an unprecedented attack on the rule of law. >> in america. >> refused to buckle. 24 hours ago, when we came on the air, it was a prosecutor named danielle sassoon. she was the interim u.s. attorney, handpicked by the incoming trump administration with unimpeachable conservative credentials. >> who, according to the new york. >> times reporting, quote, resigned rather than. >> obey an order from a top. >> justice department official to drop the corruption case. >> against new. >> york city's mayor, eric adams. then the times continues. when justice department officials transferred the case to the public. integrity section in washington. the two men who led that. unit also resigned. >> several hours later. >> three other. >> lawyers in that unit also

resigned. 123456. resignations. and now we can add. >> to that list another rather remarkable resignation from the times. quote. hagan scotten, the lead prosecutor on. >> the. federal corruption. >> case against mayor adams, a man who, quote, served three. >> combat tours. >> in. iraq as a. >> u.s. army special forces officer and earned two bronze. >> stars who, quote, graduated from harvard law school. >> and clerked for. >> chief justice john. >> roberts and later. >> for justice brett. >> kavanaugh, a man. >> who has led the. >> investigation into. mr. adams. >> since it began. >> in the summer of 2021. >> today, in a spectacular and scathing letter. >> to acting. >> deputy attorney. >> general emil. >> bove, he set. >> a new. standard for integrity. and moral courage. he wrote. >> this quote there's a tradition in public. service of. resigning in a last ditch effort to head off a serious mistake.

some will view the mistake you are committing here, in the light of their. >> generally negative. >> views of the new administration. >> i do. >> not share those views. quote i can even understand how a chief executive whose background is in business and politics. might see the contemplated dismissal with. >> leverage as a good, if distasteful, deal. but any assistant u.s. attorney would. >> know that our laws and traditions do not allow using the prosecutorial power to influence other citizens, much less elected officials, in this way. if no lawyer within earshot of the president. >> is willing to give. >> him that. >> advice. >> then i expect you. >> will eventually. find someone who. >> is enough of a fool. or enough of a coward to file your motion. >> but it was never going to be me. >> end quote. apparently they have found. their fool or coward. >> whatever we're going with. >> to do it in. >> the last hour. >> attorney general pam. bondi said she expects the charges

against. >> mayor adams. >> to be dropped later today. it comes as the new york times has. >> brand new reporting on. >> exactly who concocted what danielle sassoon calls in her letter to attorney general pam bondi, a, quote, quid pro quo. according to the new york times, that would be none other than. >> the acting. >> deputy attorney general, who, shortly after donald trump took office, quote, called mayor eric adams lawyer. >> saying he wanted. >> to talk about potentially dismissing the case. what followed was a rapid series of exchanges between adams lawyers and trump's administration. quote, the series of. >> events in which the acting number. >> two official at the justice. >> department seemed to guide criminal defense. lawyers toward a rationale. >> for. dropping charges against a high profile. >> client. >> represents an extraordinary shattering. >> of norms for an agency. >> charged with enforcing the laws of the united states. quote, it also sends a message under the trump administration,

the justice department will make prosecutorial decisions based not on the merits of a case, but on purely political concerns. long time prosecutors and defense lawyers said, quote, prompted by mr. bové, the mayor's lawyers refined their approach until they landed on a highly unorthodox argument. records and interviews show one that was ultimately reflected in mr. bové's memo to prosecutors monday. that memo stated that the criminal case had unduly restricted mayor adams ability to address illegal immigration and violent crime. it also pointedly said that the decision had nothing to do with the evidence or the law. we'll let that sink in. before we start today with some of our favorite. reporters and friends with us at the table, new york times investigative. >> reporter and msnbc. >> national security contributor. mike schmidt is here. he is byline on. >> that. >> reporting we just read from. also joining us, president of the national action network, host of msnbc's politics nation. the reverend al sharpton is here. also joining us at the

table. msnbc legal analyst. >> former s.d.n.y. >> criminal division deputy chief christie greenberg is here. and mimi rocca. joins us. she's a former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. and she ran the s.d.n.y criminal division. mimi, i'll start with you, because when we came on the air yesterday, you had a real live wire into that office. and i. >> wonder what. >> you're hearing this afternoon. >> so what i'm hearing. >> nicole, is. pride from danielle sassoon on down that office. >> actually. >> believe it or not, i think. >> the people there. >> feel rightfully so. >> better now. >> that. this has happened. because as. i know. we'll get to. >> a little bit more. >> but as. >> you read. >> as hagan scotten said in. >> his letter. >> any federal. >> prosecutor across the. >> country knows that they could not stand up. >> in. >> federal in front of a federal judge and ask. >> for.

>> this to. >> be dismissed. >> and that is what. >> actually is so. >> remarkable that the people. here who. >> are twisting the. >> principles of being a federal prosecutor. >> are not the ones in the southern. district of new york or public. >> integrity who. >> are resigning. >> but the. >> ones who are trying to literally coerce them into doing it. >> at. >> the head of the. justice department. >> and so there. >> is. >> i think, a. >> great sense of relief and pride. >> more than anything right. >> now. >> not just in the southern district, but in. >> the doj. alum community. >> i mean, i'm hearing from people all over and just lawyers in general saying, yes, this is what. >> our oath is about. this is what following ethical rules is about upholding. >> the constitution. >> this is most. >> certainly. >> as mr. scott made clear, not about politics. >> i guess, mike, i want to ask you to take us through your reporting, because it's clear that the people leading the department don't see it that way, that it is explicitly. >> in letters. >> they're putting.

>> their. >> names to on doj letterhead only about politics. >> correct. >> this is. >> i mean. >> it's an. >> important thing. you said it at. >> the top there, but the decision was not. >> based on. >> the merits. >> of the case. >> it was based. >> on whether. >> there had. >> been. >> political interference. >> from. damian williams. >> or it had gotten in the way of the. >> mayor's ability. >> to do his job. >> in terms of immigration. and national. >> security. >> and in our. >> reporting. >> what we found was that as soon as trump was sworn in, adams's lawyer sent a letter directly to the white house saying he's looking. >> for a pretrial pardon. >> he wanted the united states to go in and use his powers to pardon him before he went on trial, which is an extraordinary thing in and of itself. there's a period of silence for a week in which adams's lawyers don't hear anything back. >> and then. >> the next thing they hear is from the acting deputy attorney

general, who reaches out to say, i have a meeting to discuss dropping the case. there is this meeting in washington in which the acting deputy attorney general says says to the group that this is not about the merits of this case. i'm interested in whether it's getting in the way of his job. and essentially in doing that, what he starts doing is holding the off ramp for adams's lawyers. he's saying to them, give me the reasons why it's hard for him to do his job. and you see that in these letters that go because just a few days after that meeting, adams's lawyer sent send a letter laying out all the ways it gets in. you know, him trying to enforce immigration, national security matters for the city of new york. and it is ultimately that rationale that is used. and it was this dance in which they went back and forth to get to something that that apparently the department thought was

enough to rationalize this. now, the thing that we're going to see here is what is the bar that they're going to need to clear to get this dismissed? and i my sense is that the bar is not very high. the judge can ask a lot of questions. the judge could jump up and down. you know, i defer to the legal experts on that. but the i don't think there's a ton that the judge can actually do at this point to, to stop this. is that true? >> well, i think danielle sassoon and hagen scott both make a pretty compelling case here, that there is something that the judge can do, because the judge does have to at least find this is in the public interest, and both of them are saying, no, this is pretextual. this is not at all in the public interest. and so at a minimum, i think you're going to see judge ho have a really, you know, tough inquiry for the whichever prosecutor it is that's going to get up there and have to defend this about what these reasons.

>> are. >> and if they are reasons that really are about upholding the constitution or just, you know, demonstrating loyalty to donald trump. so i do think that judge ho is going to engage in that. i don't think he's just going to rubber stamp this. >> how does. >> adams end up sort. >> of in. >> a group. >> of citizens with the january 6th insurrectionists, whose side trump is taking. against merrick garland's. >> justice department? >> he doesn't end up with them. he ends. >> up worse. >> than them. >> they were. >> pardoned. and they have videotapes of them committing crimes. >> he has been put in a. >> compromise position. >> where, with a leash around his. >> neck and the neck. >> of the city of new. >> york. >> they don't. >> even pardon him. >> if donald trump were sincere about eric adams, had in. >> some way. >> been violated. >> or. >> politically targeted, why didn't he pardon them like he did the hoodlums that he pardoned on january 6th? or like. >> he's pardoned others, he

used. >> this to say. >> you're going to do my immigration. >> policy in writing. >> as michael said. >> in writing, he free to do his work in. >> immigration and criminal. >> crimes, violent crimes. >> which to some of us in new york spells. >> stop and frisk. >> all over again. not education, not daycare. >> there's a lot of. >> mayors. >> supposed to do specifically assigning him to these things. so now. >> what i think the judge is going. >> to have to deal with. >> are you now saying, your. >> honor, that anyone that is in office should not face indictment or. trial because they have to do the job of the city, because that's what they claim in this is the reason for this or that. if it's nine months before the. >> primary. >> they shouldn't be indicted. what did everybody in congress, because they have to run every two years. they start a year ahead of time. i think the judge is going to have a hard time having to deal with the rationale, because none of the.

rationale is based on law, it's based on. politics and policy, and that's dangerous. and i don't even think it was fair to eric adams. eric adams should have said if he feels that he's innocent, give me a pardon or don't give me the back of the bus. >> but do you know why that didn't happen? and let me ask you. >> two questions and. >> then you. >> can jump. >> back in. but whose idea is it to say he can't carry. >> out trump's. >> enforcement policies if he's indicted? is it mr. spiro and mr. birx, or is it mr. bobo's? >> it's sort of a mystery because the question is, in our story today, we cover what happens from the moment trump becomes president. until basically yesterday. but there's a whole part of the story that happens before that. you know, the mayor goes all the way down to florida to see trump. there's some sort of back and forth. the mayor changes his public posture towards trump. there had to be,

you know, other sorts of discussions that were going on that we don't have the full appreciation of because someone had to sit there and say, okay, trump doesn't want to eat this himself. he doesn't want to have to pardon him himself. >> so why not? >> i he didn't want to own this one. >> i mean it. >> i mean, we is eric adams in your reporting viewed as more toxic than enrique tarrio to trump? >> i don't know, but there was something about this that trump didn't want to go out and do because. >> he wanted like a process. >> i've seen the letters clear as day, the day, that day or so after trump takes office, this letter goes to the white house counsel saying we are seeking a pretrial pardon. and the letter reads like a screed, like a donald trump screed about the justice department leaks and the new york times and how, you know, he's been unfairly tried in the public. it reads it reads

just like trump's complaints about the justice department, it's clearly geared towards trump. if trump wanted to pardon him at that point, he could have done that. that doesn't happen. the next thing that happens is the justice department calls. now in that conversation, it's our understanding. it's let's talk about dismissing the case. let's let's have a meeting to talk about dismissing the case. in the meeting they say, you know, how is it getting in the way of him doing his job? now, the thing that we just need to pause here on that for a second, though, the idea that that is the way of ending a case is like, never like i we're not allowed, as reporters to say, never happened before, but it's never happened before. >> well. >> and that. >> made me just jump in on this. that's the, the i mean, david kelly sat here. and agonized over whether that was corrupt. >> because. >> i mean, to mike's point and to the rest point, a pardon is an absolute presidential power. and i think that's why even i think even the prosecutors said if trump wants to pardon him, he can pardon him. but this desire

to, for whatever reason, not be not be, i don't know, not pardon the mayor of new york city is something trump is. something trump doesn't want to do. is a bridge too far, which is a hard sentence to even utter about donald trump. the other side of that coin is to corrupt the department of justice, and that beauvais goes along with it and says soon, and the other prosecutors in new york and in the public integrity section don't feels like an absolute fracture. >> i mean. >> what does it mean? what is the department of justice today, if not corrupted? >> i, with all due respect. to dave kelly, who is a friend and i respect a ton. >> i'm not going to agonize. >> over it. the department of justice at its head is corrupted right now. what we are seeing is that the halls of the doj and the fdny, and i'm going to go out on a limb and say, i think probably almost every federal prosecutor across the country, if they have any shred of

integrity, would do exactly what mr. sassoon, what mr. hagan, what the penn prosecutors did, they would not stand up in front of a federal judge and say, this case should be dismissed when it is clear as day. we've seen it now ourselves in bobby's letter. we've seen it in sassoon's letter. we've seen it in hagen's letter. we that the basis for dismissal is literally a political deal. and i don't think it's that he didn't want to pardon adam, but i think it's that he did want leverage over adam. it reminds me, i think i said this yesterday of the mafia cases i did. you know, it's much better to have someone who you can kind of pull the puppet strings on than to have someone who just owes you a favor. and that is what what he bought here. and i think for trump and frankly, for beauvais who has done it's not this is not an isolation, right. everything he

has done has been about exerting control over the department of justice through the white house and the political arm and saying there is no separation anymore. and what these prosecutors have said is, yes, there is. when you go below the ranks there. so the people who are corrupted are the people at the top. >> but go ahead. >> it's one of the rev about think about it for a second. you know, donald trump for a long time, you've obviously been in new york a long time. what do you think it means to donald trump to finally have leverage over the mayor of new york city in the arc of his life? >> it means everything. i mean, donald trump is a new yorker, an outer borough new yorker who felt that he was never regarded and respected by the upper east side crowd that eats at the regency and park avenue. and now he's got the city in the palm of his hand. who knows what we

don't know. we know he's talking about immigration. we know he's talking about violent crime, stop and frisk. but what real estate deals, what regulations, what business deals could the mayor of new york do? so we don't know what he has in mind, but clearly he didn't have the law in mind because they didn't put that in the writing to the judge as to why they want to withdraw. i mean, what i cannot get past is they didn't even pretend to come up with a law. we're not going to be arguing about how you interpret a law. there is no law. >> he's saying. >> he's busy doing my policy and therefore you need to stop a federal trial. >> and the other charges. >> that we're told that they were going to have even more charges come forget all of that. he has to do what i want to migrants. he has to do what i want in terms of violent crime and whatever else i didn't tell you. what kind of society are we living in that you don't even

have to pretend to be legal now to do these kinds of things. >> we'll try to answer that question on the other side of a really short break. also ahead, no one goes anywhere. and to the rest point, mayor adams saying publicly today that there was no quid pro quo. and yet this morning he sat right there over on fox news, cozy, cozy with trump border czar tom homan on the president's favorite morning news show. homan, describing where he will be. in terms of adams's anatomy if he doesn't stay in line answering some of these questions for us so we don't have to wonder much, much more to get to joining us at the table later in the broadcast. house democratic leader hakeem jeffries will take a seat at the table. he'll join us on. >> all of. >> what we've been talking about, the fate of eric. adams and the department of justice, as well. >> as what's happening. >> inside the federal government. as elon musk readies for thousands. >> thousands and thousands. >> of more layoffs and jd vance bringing maga talking points to the world stage, questioning the

democratic leaders and governments of all of our. >> european allies. >> all those stories and much. >> more when deadline. white house continues after a quick house continues after a quick break, don't go anywh the highlight of the day is mahomes getting the new iphone 16 at t-mobile. it's built for apple intelligence. hustle down to t-mobile like a dog chasing a squirrel... chasing a nut! at t-mobile get iphone 16 on us. is too loud. or if listening in some environments is become too difficult, we are requesting your participation in a special program called the. 30 day risk free challenge. hearing life hearing centers are seeking people with hearing difficulties to evaluate a new 100% digital mini hearing aid now being released. all people with hearing aids or hearing difficulties are wanted to take part in this 30 day risk free challenge. evaluating this new

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yeah, checking first is smart. okay, uhh. everybody get out. so check allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. you're in good hands with allstate. >> we are all watching and waiting to see who is going to hold the line. don't miss the. >> weekend, saturday. >> and sunday mornings. >> at 8:00. >> on msnbc. >> what we do is try to cut right. >> to the bone. >> of what we're. seeing in washington that day. >> if he doesn't come through, i'll be back in. >> your city. >> and we won't be sitting on a couch. i'll be in his office up, up his butt saying, where the hell is the agreement we came t? >> there you have it. trump borders our tom homan appearing on fox news this morning alongside new york city's mayor eric adams, seemingly confirming on the air a quid pro. >> quo agreement. >> as alleged by manhattan's u.s. attorney danielle sassoon

in her resignation letter. using different language than danielle sassoon did, describing his location as, quote, up his butt and quote, if he doesn't carry out the policies to your powerful declaration that the department has been corrupted, what happens next? >> that's an excellent question. look, i think first of all, we have to see what happens with this case. as christi mentioned earlier, i do not think judge ho is just going to rubber stamp this. so for pam bondi to say the case is about to be dismissed, you know, is presumptuous that the judge does not have a lot of discretion to actually deny the motion to dismiss, but there is a lot of discretion to do an inquiry and just bring even more facts to light and, frankly, to make. beauvais todd blanch, who you know, is about to take his position, or miss bondi herself

to come to the southern district of new york and explain in front of a judge, perhaps under oath, you know, what, what has transpired here? even even more than what has been reported. but to make them answer for it, because so far all they've done, frankly, is be quite cowardice and try to push this out on career prosecutors. and that's why they're having so much trouble finding someone, because career prosecutors. i mean, i know we've said this a hundred times, but you're seeing it play out in real time right before your eyes that we didn't know the politics of the people we worked with. we didn't know what party they belong to. it just wasn't an issue. it was the oath to the constitution, the oath to follow the rules, the ethical rules, and to do justice. and there is no career prosecutor who can stand up and say it is just to dismiss this case. i mean, i think we're going to have to live through this. there are a lot of people who are

hoping, frankly, that todd blanch, who was a very dear friend of mine for many years in the southern district and a good person and lots of integrity, that he would view this as the final straw and that he would say, i'm out. i, i don't think that's going to happen. i hope it does, because i think right now mr. beauvais has been the driving force. i don't think it's too late for mr. blanch. i know the southern district community would welcome him back and the d.o.j. community, but i'm not sure he wants to be welcomed back. so i don't think that's going to happen. >> i want. >> to make sure. so there's a hope that todd blanch is an incoming department official, will take a position in opposition to mr. beauvais. >> there is definitely hope. i'm not saying an expectation by any means, but those of us who knew todd cannot reconcile the person that he was. and i say was because he doesn't appear to be

that person anymore. and what is happening now? and that he would not only stand by but condone it. i mean, if you're coming into the administration now watching everything that mr. beauvais does and in particular this to todd's old office, that he too revered and has all the same principles that you're seeing. danielle sassoon in scotland talk about. i mean, todd was no different from them. there was hope that he would say, you know what? i'm not going to take this position. i'm not saying it's a realistic hope, but when i tell you how many people have said, do you think maybe this is the breaking point for todd? and i used to hold out a little sliver of hope, and i don't really anymore. but i would love to be proven wrong. >> there's so much about hope and despair and there and the fine sort of edge of the knife that you walk when you when you see people that you worked with

in. government go in and service of the destruction. >> of institutions. >> they once held as dear as you did. it's been a constant ache in my gut for nine years of covering the trump story. do you think that there is actually going to be a standoff at the highest levels of doj over this case, or do they view the career prosecutors as collateral damage? >> they're collateral damage. i held out no hope that todd blanche is going to buck a.g. bondy or watching his confirmation hearing. he sounded very much still like he was trump's lawyer. he outlined a number of different areas where he alleged that the special counsel had engaged in misconduct for things that are as basic as going back and getting a superseding indictment for scheduling a trial date for routine discovery. he he was misleading in his characterizations. i mean, it was it was really hard to listen to. that is not you know, you're not zealously advocating for your client anymore. your client

is supposed to be the american people, but that is not at all how he sounded. and he was actually asked during his confirmation hearing about a february 10th memo. the first memo, he didn't say. >> oh. >> i've got a problem with this. this is completely contrary to what i know to be the traditions of the s.d.n.y and the doj. i'm appalled. no, he actually started joking about doing an ironman marathon with his father and maybe senator grassley, like it was an insane exchange where they were kind of jovial in, in a matter that is so gravely serious. so i have no hope that that he's going to see the light. the one person we're not talking about, though, that i think is really responsible here and has such a dereliction of duty as a.g. bondi because, look, amel beauvais deserves all of the heat that he's getting for these memos. but in his second memo, he said. >> i acted. >> with the authorization of a.g. bondi. and if you look at danielle sassoon's memo, which

she says is, hey, i'm, i'm want to talk to you, a.g. bondi, you and i have never had a conversation. we've never met about this case. i want to talk to you. i would like you to reconsider. i would like the opportunity to appeal to you. why are we rushing this? like the trial is in april? we've got some time here. i'd like to get you up to speed and see what you think. she offered to resign. only in the event that a.g. bondi did not take her up on that offer. and by the way, standard operating procedure in the doj is that the a.g. would take that meeting. if you have a u.s. attorney and an acting deputy attorney general who disagree on such a fundamental thing as dropping a criminal case against a sitting mayor, no less, you're going to want to weigh in and make sure you got that call right, that that you have all the facts, you have all the information. but again, it wasn't about the process. it wasn't about whether the analysis. right. because he did no analysis. right. this wasn't

based on the facts or the law. it was about giving donald trump the result that he wanted. as much as he may say, i have no knowledge of this, i don't know. they are taking their marching orders. we don't know that, but we know that. and that's that's very clear. the result is what is driving this, to have leverage over mayor adams until the election so that, you know, he can do their bidding. and then if he doesn't do what they want, they can always come right back. it's completely an abuse of prosecutorial power to try to influence political activities in this way. and it's also an abuse because you have many criminal defendants. most criminal defendants have jobs. and when they are preparing in a when they are defendants in a criminal case and they have to prepare for a trial, that takes time. and so treating him any differently than anybody else who is inconvenienced by having to prepare for their trial, it's just it's wholly inappropriate. it's wholly contrary to the oath that we take to uphold the constitution and treat everyone equally under the law. >> well, what is the rationale

for pam bondi having beauvais serve as her hatchet man, or is she? does she agree? >> well, i, i think you made an interesting point there on that's the thing that that's different about this version of trump. trump second term than the first and the first term. we spent a lot of time trying to figure out what trump wanted and how he was trying to get that done around him, and how he was trying to pull the levers of power. >> he tweeted. right. >> well, but but also like how he was trying to use get the justice department to do what he wanted to do and whether he could find those people to do that. we spent basically four years on trying to understand how his public and private behavior, what what he was doing and what it meant. if donald trump never spoke a word again, the folks that work in his administration would know exactly what he wanted done. and they would they would be willing

and seem willing and able to do it in a way that they weren't in the first term. so trump doesn't have to say as much as he did, because if you think about, like all the things of the first term, it's like, well, like, you know, is he trying to do this with ukraine? and what is he saying? and what did he say and what did he do? the folks that he has now are a refined version of trumpism and loyalty to him that are, that are far different, even compared to those that were there in the final year of his first term. right. so he doesn't have to say anything ever again. they know exactly what he wants. his views. >> on the same list that matt gaetz was atop. >> correct. >> those names are all under the name matt gaetz investigated for child sex trafficking. no one goes anywhere. there's much more my name's dan and i live here in san antonio, texas. goes anywhere. there's much more to unpack. we'll i ran my own hvac business and now i'm retired. i'm not good being retired. i'm a pain in the neck. i like to be able to have a purpose. about three or four years ago,

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neutral tears. it works differently than drops. blink neutral tears is a once daily supplement clinically proven to hydrate from within, helping. >> your eyes produce more of their own. tears to promote lasting, continuous relief. you'll feel day. >> after day. try blink neutral tears a. different way to. >> support dry eyes. >> blink tears. >> so at this point, there's. >> a. >> number of discussions. >> going on. there's discussions. >> going on in the state level. there's a number of discussions going on in the local level and private discussions. so at this point in. >> time. >> i'm going to refrain. >> from any comment. >> until such time. >> as we. >> complete those discussions. >> and. >> determine the fate of the mayor of the city of new york. >> new york's governor, kathy hochul, said even less. that was new york attorney general tish james. greg, what are those conversations behind the scenes? >> there's a lot of conversations that are i don't know what the attorney state attorney general is referring

to, but i've been talking to everybody, and we probably going to have a meeting next week, but everyone's waiting to see what the judge does. and there is a dangerous precedent here. again, on whether or not you're going to allow policy and politics to decide who can go on trial after they're indicted by a grand jury. i mean, they're writing a law, an opening here, the law that a lot of people can defend. i know a lot of people that wish that, oh, all i have to do is announce i'm running for office, and you can't bring me to trial. i mean, this is the danger that they're running into, and it's going to wreak havoc, i think, on a lot of the process. i also think there's going to be a lot of pressure to see how you deal with this. in terms of whether he could be put aside, whether he stays, whether and i knowing eric, eric is going to run the in my opinion, the villain here is trump and the administration putting it there. if you really

felt and there's no basis to feel damien williams had a political agenda. i mean, i know damien williams, like i know eric adams. i know eric much longer. he's a man of integrity, worked his way up through the system. what what is the political gain for him to have done this and the investigation preceded him? so i think that you've now got a position where they can maybe let this go, but they've wrecked a lot of how we deal with law and politics in new york. and that, to me, is at the feet of donald trump. >> do you think eric adams should resign? >> i have no idea. i want to see what the judge says. i mean, a lot of us are talking, and we've said that we will collectively say what we're going to say after we see what the judge says. but i think right now the judge has to bring them in. i think someone said here he should bring him in under oath and ask them what was said. what led to this? why did you come

and where is the law? here? >> but to your point, how how do new yorkers live in a city not run by its elected leader? you said he and aoc says adams must be removed. the city cannot sustain being governed for nearly a year by a mayor who is being coerced. i mean, who's running the city right now? >> i think that's what the judge is going to have to answer, because right now, from the statement given to the court about why they want to drop these charges, donald trump is running the city right now. he has got to be available to work with the president. that's a quote on immigration. so the mayor at this point is donald trump. >> i wonder how new yorkers will feel about that. i want to come back to you, mike, on some reporting or analysis from the new yorker. they write this quote, you wouldn't think it possible that a federalist society member and a former clerk for the arch conservative supreme court justice antonin scalia would show more grit in the face of trumpism than the

entire leadership of the national democratic party. but here we are, three weeks into president donald trump's second term in office. danielle sassoon, a 38 year old lawyer whom trump had named acting u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, has provided the first dramatic check against the trump administration's rampage through the federal government. trump has a unique reaction to this kind of pushback, and i'm sure she doesn't envision herself. i mean, you know, her and you interject, if i'm wrong here, i'm sure she doesn't envision herself a figure of the resistance. but this is the new yorker, not exactly a, you know, a conservative publication or point of view saying she is the first and the mightiest person to resist donald trump so far, since he got there in the first term. it was it was his own white house counsel, don mcgahn, testifying, what, for 30 hours with robert mueller? it was call me refusing to drop the flynn case. it was others at the

department of justice who left the cases once bill barr put his thumbs on the fingers of sentencing or their faces. what is it about conservative legal figures that enrages trump so much? >> i'm not sure it is. and i'm not sure how much of a check it is, because at the end of the day, it looks like they'll ultimately be able to bulldoze their way to what they want. it may not be the easiest path. it may not have gone perfectly. they may have, you know, several days of questions to answer before a judge and bad stories in the paper. but ultimately they're going to get their way. and, you know, i know folks from s.d.n.y are saying there's such pride and all these things of these prosecutors, you know, who resigned instead of doing that. but if those prosecutors are as righteous as everyone makes them out to be and are are truly good government servants that were enforcing the law, they're out of the government. they're gone. those five, however, 5 or 6, how many people have resigned? they're all out of the justice department. they will not be bringing cases on behalf of the

justice department. and one person i was talking to yesterday was talking about, well, you know, there still is a desire by some of these people in s.d.n.y to stay, to try and guide the ship because you are looking at a situation where these are these are highly skilled prosecutors that that made major cases coming out of s.d.n.y that will never work in the federal government ever again. and it's not so easy to grow these federal prosecutors. it's you can't just go out and find them, you know, and, you know, just like replace them like that. or you could lower your standards and find other people to replace them because because as you see this, like all these people resigning and, you know, the federal government getting smaller and these fbi folks that that are going to leave the bureau because they don't want to be, who's going to replace them. >> and chris christie made that point about fbi agents. it takes 30 months to unload an agent. i mean, not for nothing. we don't live in a bubble. and one of the trump stated priorities is

fighting crime. and what happens to the ability of these offices to function? >> well, it's interesting when you were talking about the standards that are involved, and i think the standards are just going to change because it used to be when you were interviewing to be an assistant u.s. attorney, one of the things you would be asked are various hypotheticals about using your judgment. you know, if you thought somebody wasn't guilty, would you continue to prosecute that case? would you present evidence to a jury if you had doubts? i mean, these were all the kinds of questions you'd be asked to try and make sure that you had a good, you know, ethical, moral compass going into the job that you were exercising your discretion in the proper way. donald trump clearly doesn't care about that. and the leadership has made it clear we don't want you. pam bondi is saying in this memo, we don't want you to use your own judgment. we want you to follow our orders and execute donald trump's agenda as he sees it. and so i think what you will see as people are leaving, there's going to be a loyalty test. it's

going to be questions about your politics, which, again, as mamie said, you would never asked about your politics. we generally knew what people's politics were, but it never factored into the work that we did. now i think it's going to and that is a very, very dangerous prospect. and i think something that would really damage the institution for years to come. i don't know how you repair the institution if you are hiring in such a dramatically different way to the way that it is now. >> go ahead. >> the other thing that that gets lost a little bit here is and because trump so distorts our our debt perception, if bill clinton had taken his 2 or 3 favorite defense lawyers and put them in charge of the justice department, the world would have flown off of its axis. i mean, the republicans would have lost their mind if bill clinton. >> i mean, the difference is so with the democrats. i mean, i think what's broken here and we've gone 40 minutes without talking about is, i mean, the head of the of the s.d.n.y hasn't been confirmed yet. right? isn't that a man named

mr. clayton? i mean, if a single republican gave a rat's behind, to quote mr. homan, that the office has been corrupted, as mimi said, they wouldn't, they could ask him whether he would go along with this or bring back sassoon and the other prosecutor. right. >> yeah. >> but it's just. >> we don't even ask those questions because the republican party's gone. i mean, to your point, it wouldn't just be republicans that would lose their minds. democrats would have as well. >> correct. and but in this case, you have, you know, a justice department that is, you know, has these two very powerful, you know, people that are running it that will be running it. when tom black is confirmed that we're donald trump's defense lawyers and to the point about about trying to figure out what trump wants, they all know what trump wants. it's not a mystery about what trump wants. trump doesn't have to pull the levers himself. he doesn't have to go out and pardon him. he his bill barr. whatever you think of bill barr, i'm pretty sure wouldn't have

gone down this path. or if he did went down this path, he wouldn't have gone certainly as quickly and would have taken a slower route that gave him more cover. this is this is justice is not supposed to be fast. it's like the justice department is the slowest institution that i've ever covered on the face of the earth. they investigate for years. they take forever to make a decision. it just goes on and on. we write endlessly about these investigations. this happened in three weeks. >> it's insane. we're going to try to push ahead to the to the next person that will lead this office. we just sneak in a break first. we also want to remind you democratic leader hakeem jeffries will be at the table in a few minutes. don't go anywhere. >> the first 100 days. it's a critical time for our country. and rachel maddow is on five nights a week. >> now is. >> the time. so we're going to do it. >> settle in. >> the rachel maddow show >> the rachel maddow show weeknights at nine on msnbc.

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the capacity for first responders. works for eric adams over t-priority. built for tomorrow's emergencies. ready today. (♪♪) obstruction, over telling us colleagues and subordinates to lie to the fbi. things very similar for jack smith's mar-a-lago case, as well as mueller's volume two, the obstruction of the russia investigation. what does it mean that the superseding indictment will never be seen? and what does it mean for the confirmation process of mr. clayton, who will head s.d.n.y? if confirmed by republicans? >> so i think in terms of mayor adams and the charges, i mean, it it means exactly what we've

been talking about, which is in all likelihood, there will be a stop to the current case and a freeze on any future charges. that doesn't mean you know that they can never be brought down the road. i mean, there's statute of limitations. i don't know enough about the dates of when everything happened to know when that would run out. but, you know, it's not going to happen, certainly at the federal level anytime soon. but i think it's all of this is critically important for jake clayton's confirmation hearing. and, you know, i would love to sort of help draft questions because i don't think these can just be the usual questions of him. you know, are you going to uphold your oath? are you going to be able to say no to the president? and he'll say, he's not going to ask me to do anything illegal, because that's what everybody is saying with no credibility. you know, mr. clayton is, from

everything i've heard, a person of integrity. but he also is not a former criminal prosecutor. he has never been in the southern district of new york. so he doesn't come from this tradition and background that people like sassoon and scott and others, the sort of career prosecutor background. and that concerns me because that is what we are seeing uphold the rule of law here. and i just have to take issue with one thing that that mike said, i understand from someone looking into it from the outside that it looks like sort of they, you know, trump and etc. won this one or will have one if the case is dismissed. but i really don't view it that way. and i know there are, i'm going to say, thousands of d.o.j. former and current employees who don't view it that way. because if people had given in to that career prosecutors, i actually think it would have

been in the long term, so much worse for the rule of law and the justice system. i think this righted the ship temporarily a little bit. as i said in the hall. so i just i view this as a victory for the rule of law. but i hope that there are really pressing questions asked of jake clayton about what he knows about these negotiations, about the adams case. it can't i mean, they should get specific asking him about about this whole thing that has played out. >> rev, if the judge does go along with doj and the attorney general's request to dismiss the case, should eric adams, as aoc says, as they, quote, coerced mayor leave the city of new york. >> i think that we will collectively, including your next guest, keith jeffries. all of us are going to talk about that, because then the question that will immediately come is, if we say he shouldn't, then who are we going to support? and then you've got to.

>> ask that question next. i mean, do. you think new. york city should have a mayor that answers to home? >> and i think that the mayor should answer and will have to answer to all of the citizens. but i think the collective leadership should not at this time predetermine and let the judge off the hook on trying to protect the law. the people of the city of new york need to understand why this president, if he felt this was politically motivated, didn't pardon him. if it was, if he doesn't, then are we now under new rules, your honor, that if you're running for office anywhere within a year, you cannot go on trial? and if you will promise to tell the president that you'll do what he wants you to do, that you will not go on trial, or we're going to write new law here, and i don't i think the first step is the judge is going to have to determine that in these hearings, or at least make somebody sit on that stand and say that i think she's right. get on the stand, give them

under oath and say, tell me the law, the legal reason why this didn't reach the bar, because it's not in their decision. i'm not a lawyer, but i did learn how to read and write. >> someone who knows his words are powerful and reverberate all around all the power circles from new york to washington. thank you for letting us press you, mike. thank you for being here on your reporting, christie. thank you, as always, for being here, reverend. our thanks to you and mimi. thank you for helping us with this story all week long. we're grateful to you. next for us, congressman hakeem jeffries will be at the table on all of it. all of today's news, the crises here at home and now abroad, and the showdown at doj over the fate of new york city mayor eric adams. the next hour of deadline, white house starts deadline, white house starts after a zyrtec allergy relief works fast and lasts a full 24 hours so dave can be the... deliverer of dance. ok, dave! let's be more than our allergies. zeize the day with zyrtec.

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can survive a few months of elon musk. >> that really happened today. >> in our name as americans. hi again everybody. >> it's now 5:00 in new york. not exactly the. >> kind of. >> reassuring or presidential or vice presidential statement our allies were hoping to hear from the new vice president on his first trip abroad. in fact, jd vance today at the munich security conference scolded our european friends and allies on democracy and free speech, delivering remarks that sounded similar to ones one might make at a maga rally. >> the threat that i worry the most about vis a vis europe is not russia, it's not china, it's not any other external actor. and what i worry about is the threat from within. the retreat of europe from some of its most fundamental values, and of all the pressing challenges that the nations represented here face, i believe there is nothing more urgent than mass migration.

democracy rests on the sacred principle that the voice of the people matters. >> following vance's words, he met with germany's leaders, including the leader of alternative for germany. that is, that country's far right party, which has a history of using nazi language. in the backdrop of all of that, donald trump and the man vance defended there in front of our allies, elon musk, are waging a hot war against the federal government, federal government workforce here at home. new york times is reporting this, quote, layoffs cascaded through the federal government on thursday after its human resources division advised agencies to terminate most of an estimated 200,000 workers on probation. a sharp escalation in the trump administration's drive to overhaul and shrink the federal workforce. elon musk signaled even more slashing to come, saying this yesterday. quote, we need to delete entire agencies, end quote. meanwhile, everyday americans are

protesting in growing numbers, in person and on the phone and at town halls held by their state and local leaders. yesterday, more than a dozen democratic attorney general filed a lawsuit saying that the power handed to elon musk and his team is unconstitutional. a hearing with judge tanya chutkan is happening right now on. that is where we start the hour with democratic congressman from new york. house minority leader hakeem jeffries, thank you for being here at the table. >> great to be with you. >> i want to ask you, i mean, what is your strategy for their intentional strategy of flooding the zone and trying to offend all the senses and break all the norms? >> well, it's definitively an. >> intentional strategy. >> to flood the zone with outrage. and it has been a parade of horribles that donald trump, elon musk and his minions have unleashed. >> on the american people. >> and so we've got to be prepared to push back in an all hands on deck way. what we've said. >> in the house. >> is that for us, that means the congressional playing field,

the courts, as well as pushing back aggressively in the community and understand particularly where we have the opportunity to win those fights, as has been the case in several instances, including in pushing back aggressively against the illegal funding freeze that would have halted medicaid. as we know it all across the country, the american people rose up. members of congress, members of the senate, democratic governors, and it was reversed in less than 40 hours. this administration backtracked, showing us and hopefully the country, that public sentiment does matter. and there are limits to what this administration is capable of doing. we've seen that in the courts right now. there are more than 65 different lawsuits that have been filed related to at least 25 of the unlawful executive orders. and the american people are actually winning those lawsuits, and donald trump and his administration are losing. we have to keep that up. but we also have to engage aggressively

with the community, because at the end of the day, the american people will have to push back as it relates to their tolerance for trump and republicans promising to do things to improve their quality of life, but instead doing the exact opposite. >> i mean, so you're sort of dealing with everything from the legality of musk's doge, doge, whatever we're calling it, to the price of eggs. and i guess what i'm trying to distill is how you, you know, how you direct all that. do you know, do you divide up your members? do you divide up your days? i mean, is there or are you really in triage, in crisis management? >> well, i think it's all day, every day, every week, every month until we get the country through this moment. now, there's one overarching narrative, which is the republicans have essentially pulled a bait and switch last year. they promised relentlessly

that they were going to drive down the high cost of living. yeah. as their chief promise to the american people, they now have the opportunity to do it. there's a republican president, a republican house and a republican senate. no ideas, no plans, no program to lower the high cost of living. in fact, costs aren't going down. they're going up in the united states of america. and the republicans could care less. why? because their objective actually is to pass massive tax cuts for billionaire donors and their wealthy corporations. and then third, stick working class americans with the bill by slashing and burning things like medicaid to the ground. and so it's all connected at the end of the day, and we've got to break through with that narrative that ties it all together for the american people and then battle it out in these different forms in the congress, in the courts, and in the community.

>> democratic senator chris murphy calls it an oligarchy. do you see it that way? >> well, i mean, i think these people are trying to end america as we know it, as it relates to our democracy, as it relates to our ability for the federal government to deliver the type of services that are designed to improve the quality of life of the american people. and i certainly think it's the case that you've got donald trump, you've got elon musk as a billionaire puppet master who is directing house republicans as to what they should or should not be doing. and so you've got house republicans who were elected to serve the american people, but they're serving elon musk. >> and what can you do about that? >> well, for instance, we're going to continue to press forward with legislative efforts in addition to the litigation. you know, we've introduced the taxpayer data protection act, for instance, which would make elon musk's activity, particularly as it relates to the department of treasury,

unlawful. they're trying to use this exemption that elon musk is a special government employee who is exempt from the ethical requirements and the financial disclosure requirements. meanwhile, he's raiding the personal data bank accounts, names, addresses, social security numbers of the american people. why does he need access to that information? it's unconscionable. it's un-american. we're going to work hard to make it unlawful as we're battling in the courts as well. >> what is the most helpful thing for the, you know, 48.6% of americans who voted for kamala harris to do right now. >> i think the most helpful thing is to communicate with their elected officials, both in terms of what they would like to see happen. that's important, that's occurring. but what's even more significant is share the personal stories as to why the things that are occurring in washington as a result of the extremism coming out of 1600

pennsylvania avenue will hurt them, hurt their families, hurt their parents, hurt their neighbors. because one of the things i think we're going to have to more effectively do as we move forward, as we communicate with the american people, is to personalize it. >> all right. >> this is not about. >> the. >> institution of the bureaucracies and put the democratic party on the side. >> of the individuals. >> how do you put i mean, you look at the success that liz cheney and adam kinzinger had when welcomed in under your predecessors leadership to work with democrats in the january 6th select committee. do you think there's a scenario where any republican is interested in hearing from danielle sassoon about what went awry at s.d.n.y? >> it's going to be interesting to see. we certainly look forward to providing any opportunity that we can for her to present her story, and the information to the american people should be a very compelling individual. i think that what we've been saying to our republican colleagues that on any issue that the american

people are concerned about, it only takes three republicans to break with the other side of the aisle, join the 215 democrats, and we can stop them in their tracks. it only takes three. meanwhile, they're in the witness protection program as it relates to the things that are taking place. don't want to take a stand, don't want to offend elon musk. don't want to offend donald trump, but they're really offending the people that they were elected to represent. >> are you starting to see any evidence of that? i mean, do you have the campaign side evidence that in some of those tougher districts, it's hurting them. >> on the campaign side? there's a lot of activity that is taking place to hold house republicans accountable now for their failure to govern in an enlightened fashion. and that will have consequences next november. but we need we need them to do the right thing now. >> right, right. i want to ask your opinion about eric adam's ability to govern the city of new york. and if you agree with congresswoman alexandria

ocasio-cortez, who says he's currently being coerced by donald trump. >> he's going to have to make the case to new yorkers that he still has the capacity to behave as an independently elected official, not someone who's taking orders or who is on a short leash relative to the department of justice. it should trouble everyone that this decision was made to recommend the dismissal of charges, which ultimately a judge will have to approve, but only to dismiss the charges without prejudice, which effectively means it can be brought back at any point in time. and so there is a prosecutorial gun being put to the head of the elected mayor of the city of new york. that's deeply disturbing. and the mayor is going to have to answer those questions to the people that i represent in brooklyn and to the people throughout new york city. >> is he compromised? >> i think that's a legitimate question to ask, and he's going to have to answer that question

sooner rather than later, not just through his words, but through his actions. >> i mean, tom homans words are i will be, quote, up his butt, end quote. i apologize for mr. homans choice of language. it certainly thinks it seems that tom homan thinks that he resides somewhere in his anatomy. >> yeah, it was an extraordinary interview. i saw clips of it, an extraordinary statement. but what i will say is we're not going to let the trump administration intimidate the people of the city of new york. >> but they intimidate they they believe that they literally occupy space inside the mayor's anatomy, anatomy. >> it's an extraordinary statement. this is why eric adams is going to have the burden of having to demonstrate to the people of new york, otherwise not simply convinced. >> what burden do democrats have to oppose flagrant on its face on tv, paraded on fox news corruption. >> that's something that's going to be worked out. and i think, as reverend sharpton just said, there are ongoing conversations to try to figure out, you know, where we land on this sooner

rather than later. >> all right. i want to ask you about what's happening overseas. speaker pelosi spent a lot of time reassuring our allies, really, throughout her career, still spends time when the democratic party didn't adhere to the ideals of the republican party. from the time my old boss was president george w bush, but definitely during trump's first presidency. and i wonder if you see elon musk take the world stage and you see some of his comments over there that are being compared by very senior national security folks. i'm sure you're hearing even more than i am to neville chamberlain like language around the war in ukraine. what do you feel you can do as one of the most, as one of the two most powerful democratic leaders in america to reassure our allies? >> well, appeasement failed in the 1930s and it will continue to fail. this is one of the reasons why we pushed aggressively to make sure that the united states, in its capacity as leader of the free world, stood by ukraine not just

for ukraine's territorial integrity, but because freedom and democracy and truth are on the line. and the post world war two nato alliance, the greatest military alliance in the history of the world. and it was shameful that the vice president went over there and effectively is trying to start the process of detonating it. and we can assure our nato allies that there are members of congress, i believe, on both sides of the aisle, republicans hiding in many ways, but on both sides of the aisle who understand that it's good for america to lead the free world and not turn it over to china and russia and iran. good for america and our national security. and we will continue to press that point publicly as well as legislative. >> what keeps you awake at night? what three worries at the top of your list? >> well, i never know. day to

day, hour to hour, minute by minute. what's coming out of 1600 pennsylvania avenue? now, we do have a blueprint project 2025 where they lay it all out, lied about the connection, the project 2025 last year only talked about lowering the high cost of living, but this year are doing nothing about the high cost of living and flooding the zone. with project 2025 extreme initiatives. and so the reality is, first 100 days, first year, first midterm election. we're in an intense moment. we all have to step up. we'll continue to do the best we can as house democrats and rise to the occasion and bring the american people along with us. >> when you look at the role that speaker pelosi played and it was a different dynamic, i mean, she she couldn't. republicans at this moment control everything. but what what lessons do you take from the successful fights, the fights that were won by democrats against trump and in some cases with with sort of a broader pro-democracy movement?

what what what opportunities do you see to build that broader coalition and not try to sort of win these narrow victories, but communicate and sort of reshape the way elections are fought in this country? >> yeah. i think what was incredibly important about speaker pelosi's time leading, particularly during those first two years when it was leader pelosi. right. and i was just entering into house democratic leadership. but there was a big frenzy around the mueller report and russian interference with the election. and a lot of people animated about it. but speaker pelosi, those of us who are around the table, made an intentional decision that we are going to confront their efforts to harm the american people around the effort to repeal the affordable care act. >> i remember that. >> and the gop tax scam. >> yeah. >> and though that didn't take up a lot of the outside energy

initially, those were the decisive issues that allowed us to take back the house in november of 2018. and that's a lesson that i think we can draw from that moment. trump will flood the zone. he's doing it even more, but they're going to be some key legislative fights that we have to win on behalf of the american people. we cannot allow them to decimate medicaid or supplemental nutritional assistance for children and seniors and veterans. we can't allow them to close hospitals in rural america and urban america in the heartland of america. you know, we can't allow them to effectively undermine the ability of people to pursue the great american dream, all in service of massive tax cuts for the wealthy, the well-off and the well-connected. we've got to win those fights. while we, of course, are pushing back aggressively on the extremism that continues to be unloaded on the american people. but i think the lesson from speaker pelosi during those early years is, you know, make a decision to win and

know where you can win. >> and just to remind us the results of the 2018 midterms, how many seats. >> picked up? 40 seats. >> okay. all right. well, that sounds like a reassuring plan of action. please come back as often as you're able to. our audience is really, really interested in one knowing there's a plan and two hearing more about it. thank you very much. thank you. thank you for your time. we'll have much more on what democrats are doing to resist and counter the trump administration's flood the zone strategy and slash and burn approach to the federal government and to our alliances all around the world. and later in the broadcast, a so-called ghost flight and a decoy motorcade, a brand new book reveals the lengths that team trump went in order to protect donald trump from the threat of assassination from iran, even as trump is one of his very first acts as president, pulled the security details from other officials also targeted by iran. we'll have those stories and we'll have those stories and much more when deadline. w (man) got one more antoine. (vo) with usps ground advantage, it's like you're with us every step of the way.

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country. >> we are all watching and waiting to see who is going to hold the line. >> don't miss the. >> weekends, saturday and. >> sunday mornings. >> at 8:00. >> on msnbc. >> the role of the press is to follow the story. >> as the. >> story goes. >> joining me at the table for the rest of the hour, the host of the fast politics podcast. special correspondent for vanity fair, msnbc political analyst molly jong-fast. also joining us, chief political columnist and host of the impolitic podcast for msnbc, national affairs analyst john heilemann. hi. i got to just catch my breath for a second. no shortage of news. i mean, we've really spent two days on this. i mean, i think sometimes parallels to historical events are not apt, but i think the saturday night massacre involved fewer resignations than the beauvais standoff has where it's six and counting. you get sort of

different analysis about whether this is what was intended, but clearly what was intended by beauvais was that fall in line? >> yeah. >> well, i mean, i, i was listening to. the to the first hour of the show, which was. >> super compelling. >> and i. >> think, you know. mimi rocha is. >> obviously right. >> about what. >> this the question of why. >> does trump. >> not pardon adams? because it's better for trump than not pardon. it's better to have. >> adams on. >> the string. >> than than to give him up, than to. >> let him set. >> him free and let him go about his business. that seems obvious to me. you know, there's. >> no question about that. >> that's the motivation here. >> and i think the. >> the. >> you know. >> my consistent. >> thing in all of these. >> instances, they are trying to break or. strip down government to the. >> studs or break things. that's what they're here. >> for, right. >> and so when. >> when i, when you have to go to. >> a kind. >> of. >> instinctive analytic position on like, why is something happening. like what are they doing here? you know, if it involves. in making people

fearful but. >> uncertain about their. >> jobs, their. >> job security, if it makes them do their job worse, either gets rid of them, makes them do their job worse, brings them. to heel in some. >> way. >> or breaks. >> the system. >> so that it can be remade in the image that that. >> donald trump in his. >> administration wants. that's almost i think those are that's the prism through which you have to look at all these things. >> and so. >> yes. >> i think. >> bringing those people to heel is. is part of this. >> either. >> you know, bring you to. >> heel or, or, or will crush you under. >> our heel either way. but i think that the that you know, mike said this thing on the way when we were talking about this, i heard him he said, that thing made me laugh when he said. >> that. >> you know, reporters aren't. >> supposed to say, this never happens. >> but. >> this. >> never happens. >> and just on a purely logical level, if the argument that being indicted, that you should be let out of your indictment because it interfered with your ability to do your job, if that was a legitimate argument, everybody who's indicted. it would apply to everybody. >> there's no one. >> for whom being indicted doesn't interfere with their ability to work emotionally, physically. >> spiritually.

>> financially, in some way or the other. right. and so that it's just it's such. >> a it's. >> such a patently ludicrous argument that it exposes it makes it. >> so ludicrous. >> that it makes obviously transparent and clear what's going on here. >> and i come back to it because i think this lens is so important for us. right? it's been three weeks, and i think we have to stop asking. >> four weeks on tuesday. >> four weeks. who's counting? i am we have to stop asking. what is musk's vision for? the government must doesn't have a vision for the government. he barely understands what our democracy is supposed to be about. and it's clear when you hear him talk that unlike trump, who's acutely aware of who his critics are and what they say about him at any given time, musk is high on his own supply of information from his own broken social media platform. he's, you know, head in the clouds, talking about gravitas in the oval office with zero sense of irony. but but, you know, to just come back to john's point, the lens is super important. he didn't want sassoon to resign in protest. he

wanted her to heal. that's why she was picked. he thought her ambitions as a conservative were great enough that, like all the others, she would heal or look the other way. >> but she also had. >> blanch, right? >> could she be todd blanch? right? right. could could she be all of the other once principled people who sort of, you know, collapsed their moral compass, llir spines, erase their own memories? i mean, there are people who worked on george w bush's democracy agenda who are now helping donald trump. and the war in ukraine by aiding russia. i mean, sassoon was not in the grand plan. >> no. >> and. >> i. >> think that's. >> really important. and that letter was i mean, all the letters we've seen from these people who have resigned, one has been more clear clarifying than the next and important and brave, right. these people have done brave things. they've really torched their own careers for the greater good, which i think is really important. but even just if you pull back and

look at project 2025, not to sound like a broken record here. >> but but. >> project 2025 had this idea of making the department of justice an arm of the presidency. i mean, that. >> was in writing, right? >> in writing. and it was like the idea is to expand the power of the president so that the doj is an arm of his presidency or even his campaign or whatever he wants. and so when you see this. >> going down. >> you realize very much this is this idea streamlining the federal government and really making it only work for the executive. and i thought what was interesting too, about musk, which you were just talking about. was musk recently, like discovered checks and balances and the judiciary. like, he was like, judges can make it so the president can't do what they want. >> let's impeach him. right. that was his answer, right? >> like, how dare judges have this kind of. and it's like. >> no. >> no, this is how it works here. >> i mean, the interesting thing, one of the interesting things that that leader jeffries, i think, talked about was that the history they're looking at is the first two years of trump 1.0, when

democrats had sweeping success in those first midterms. >> yeah. well, and i'll say what molly just said is 100% right. but i actually the one case, 2025 wasn't necessarily trump thought the justice department should be under his under his control. the first time from the very beginning, i mean, when jeff sessions didn't. immediately comply right to what he wanted to do, he was like, what is this? >> what made him cry? >> these guys work for me. i appointed this guy and now he doesn't work for me. that doesn't make any sense. that's the one where he didn't need guidance. he was going to try to bring the justice department, of all things, of all the agencies. he cares more about that one in the fbi than anything else. and he was going to try to bring that. he was going to install people who were going to do his bidding in that scenario. i think that project 2025 people give an intellectual gloss for why that might be acceptable. but that's trump's impulse 100%. and i think, you know, the to your point, i am interested in you know, trump has gotten very used to like all of us, everybody. if you if. >> you go. >> a long time in your life doing the same thing and getting

the positive result and no one challenges you, you get kind of used to it. you start to think that's like the law of that's that's the law of gravity. now, that's the physics of the world. i do these things. it works out fine for me. and then someone stands up and says, no. and it's the interesting question is what the knock on effects of that will be. both. you know, trump will will dismiss it quickly and move on. but the question is, how many other people do you know? this was a little bit of a domino effect, even just today, that we got to that number of six. how much were they all influenced by each other? you don't know. but it is brave what they did. but it will be really a salutary thing if they if these they're all going to go get jobs in the private sector, they're not going to they're going to starve. they're all really incredibly successful lawyers. they're very brilliant. they're not unemployable. right. >> they're still braver than all the senators. >> yes. >> republican senators. >> but this is why i started by saying, i think it's really brave, but it'll be really salutary if their example is that other lawyers look at them and say, hey, you can survive that. yeah, you can have your

principles and you can make a statement and do the right thing and your life doesn't collapse. you know, it's not like you end up, this is not going to be the end of you. it's one of the things that's always, you know, makes me crazy about these these congress people who are like, well, what are you afraid of? i'm afraid of getting primaried, right? losing you, losing your house, your seat in the house. >> that's is worse than than voting for rfk or tulsi gabbard, who you spent your career pre-trump like championing everything they are. you know, they were on the other side of both of those individuals, and they all fell in line except mitch mcconnell. yeah, it's an insane thing to have happened this week. >> i mean, and think about thom tillis, right, who was going to vote against hegseth and then he wasn't. i mean, there. >> have been a mean tweet, right? >> there have been. >> so many examples of republicans, powerful older people who have done this for years and years and years, giving up everything just. >> to go. and what's important. >> cassidy is a doctor. >> i can't, i just. >> he's a doctor. >> yeah. at least the senate's only known polio survivor was a no. but the. >> although according to trump, it's not clear yesterday that

thing of. i don't know if he's a polio survivor. maybe. >> maybe not. he made it up. >> but the thing about that is important is it puts some 3d on the map. right? because because before they were just hypocrites going along for the lie. now there's someone who did the opposite, right? so she's up here and they look even smaller hopefully than themselves and maybe their families. no one's going anywhere. coming up, how a vindictive donald trump pulled the security detail for officials targeted for assassination by iran, even as donald trump and much of his presidential campaign worried constantly about the threat iranian agents posed to trump's iranian agents posed to trump's life. we'll bring you ( ♪♪) you never want to lose your edge. and the lexus rx completely understands that. (♪♪) at bombas, we make absurdly comfortable socks, slippers you'll float in, and underwear and tees that feel like clouds...

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[joe] that's my commitment. [ambient noise] >> security detail comes off and you. >> know you. can't have. >> them forever. >> partially responsible. >> if something. >> would have happens. >> to say, doctor. >> fauci or. >> john bolton. >> no. >> you know, they all. >> made a. >> lot of money. they can. >> hire their own. >> security to all the people you're talking about. they can go out. i can give them some good numbers. >> they're very good. >> security people. they can hire their own security. they get a number in my phone. i could give it to them and they could call them. donald trump. they're defending his decision to strip the security details from his own former national security adviser, john bolton, despite ongoing threats to john bolton's life and a previous assassination attempt. we play that moment for you because a new book by axios reporter alex

isenstadt titled revenge the inside story of trump's return to power, sheds light on trump's very own intense fears of the very same thing assassination by iran. even as his decision to remove security details for his perceived enemies, people like john bolton or the former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, mark milley, raised the fear that they are in harm's way. eisenstadt's reporting that after an assassination attempt on trump in florida, quote, trump's security detail was concerned enough about the iran threat that it had trump travel to an event on a decoy plane owned by steve witkoff. he is a trump friend and real estate executive who is now donald trump's envoy to the middle east for his staff. isenstadt reports that they, quote, traveled on trump force one that day, infuriating some aides who worried they'd be collateral damage if the jet was shot down. joining us now is the aforementioned senior political reporter for axios and the

author of the new book, revenge the inside story of trump's return to power. alex isenstadt. congratulations on the book. tell me, when these aides found out they were on the decoy plane, when people were worried enough about iran assassinating donald trump, that they took him off the plane, that those who might assassinate him might target. >> they were absolutely stunned. >> and they did not know about this ghost flight, this decoy plane, until. >> literally the. doors closed. >> of. >> the plane. >> and. >> they were about to. >> take off. >> and what. >> happened was they. >> looked at. >> the seat where donald trump usually sits in. >> the plane. >> and it was empty. >> and they started asking, why. >> is donald trump not there? and then they got an answer from campaign. >> leadership that trump. >> was on another. >> plane, and that they. >> would be flying alone. >> in trump force one. >> and there there were it was shocking. >> it was shocking. >> moment gasps all around. lots of gallows. >> humor throughout. >> that flight. and a lot of them wondered.

>> what would happen. >> if they got shot down. now campaign. >> leadership assured. >> them they weren't being. >> used as bait, but it still left a lot. >> of questions. >> and it still is something that trump aides to this day even talk about. they all. remember what became known as the ghost flight. >> did anyone quit? >> no one quit. no one quit. but there was some. >> some of them. >> did wonder why they weren't. they didn't fly to where they had to go. commercial. >> why is this the dynamic that no one quits when they're used as human shields against iran? for donald trump. >> there is just. >> incredible loyalty among this team to donald trump. and almost everyone who played a senior level on this campaign is now playing. a senior role. >> in the trump. >> white house, or is. >> very. close to the trump to. >> the trump white house in an informal capacity. they feel that strongly about him. and it's a very tight crew, a very tight crew of people. >> who are now. >> helping donald. trump govern the country.

>> talk about people. think about the second term as a presidency with revenge on the side. but in your telling and in trump's own i mean, to trump's credit, he's very transparent about it. even when folks like laura ingraham and sean hannity try to get trump off of his stated public commitment for revenge and retribution, he says, no, no, no, no, no, you have to get revenge. and doctor phil, i think, also tried talk about his commitment to revenge and retribution in this second term. >> donald trump has been committed to the idea of revenge, dating back to. when he started campaigning for this job for a second term. he would joke on the campaign trail. he would joke privately, rather, there will no be no. revenge in the white house. there will be. >> no retribution. >> and then he would he. >> would wink. >> or he would say so very sarcastically. it is always been something that was on his mind. now, the interesting thing is,

is that revenge became such a topic during the campaign that trump's inner circle was extraordinarily worried that it was it would hurt him in the polls and that it was damaging his campaign and that it was proving to be a distraction, so much so that they had to come up with a plan to deal with it and to try to scale back the degree to which it was being seen as a central theme of his campaign, even while privately it was something that he was thinking very much about. >> do you think that trump thinks he won because of his promises of revenge, or do you think that trump thinks he won despite his obsession with revenge? >> i think that trump thinks that it's something that helped him with a lot of his core group of supporters, people who wanted him to go out there and to destroy the people that they believe and that he believes have been out to get him. and that includes people in the judiciary side of things. it includes a lot of people who they believe stymied him and hurt him in his first first

term, and who were out to get him and throw him in prison. that's their view of things. and to some extent, that's something that really excited his base and helped power him through the primary and to some extent, maybe through the general election. >> the problem with his belief that retribution helps him politically is that it is not a thing that's going to get in the way of hakeem jeffries plan of taking back the house. it is not a thing that animates the swing voter. it is not a thing that that hard core base comes out in the midterm and says, i'm still excited about retribution. my eggs are 12 bucks. it seems like a real exposed flank politically. sorry for the visual. >> right. well, i'm going to on a friday. really? donald trump's flank. >> think about now. >> jesus. well, the other factor here is that i think, you know, donald trump has a fair case to make. if he said, look, he came out and said very early in the campaign, this is what makes it hard for them to get away from this. i am your retribution. he talked about retribution all the time. retribution was a core

theme for him. your point about the presidency with little retribution on the side, the president, the retribution is the main course. and the presidency is like the spinach over on the side that trump doesn't eat green vegetables. i think that the he has a fair point to say didn't stop him from winning, didn't stop him from getting more votes. the problem with the midterms is that he's not on the ballot, and democrats will obviously try to tar republicans with the with the unpopular elements of trump. but revenge is a very personal thing. so even if people look at trump and say he's speaking on behalf of me, he is my retribution. also, donald trump is the is the vessel for my sense of grievance. it doesn't translate to other republicans who get much more tarred when it's like, hey, you're you can take all the bad trump policies that you've supported. and there's not that personal the personal element of it that makes it compelling with trump to some of his voters isn't there. and it's kind of why there is a there is an opening there, if that's what trump spends the next two years doing. because what what republican

house member can stand up and say, well, trump took retribution. i get some credit for that. that's not going to work. >> it's ridiculous. it's ridiculous. and, you know, as you look at the administration's changing public statements on the price of things like eggs, right. revenge is going to sound like a real waste of time from leaders that said they were going to go and make everything cheaper, the grocery and whatnot. >> well, i mean, and the thing is, as much as and again, you know, he'll say he has a mandate. he obviously doesn't have a mandate, though he did win the popular vote and congratulations to him. but he you know, he said he was going to make things cheap. he was going to make eggs cheaper. i went to the grocery store and there was a little sign that said, you know, we're really sorry, but eggs are like much more expensive right now. and obviously, you know that what's going on is not his, you know, bird flu was happening before him. but the question is like in two years when you can't when you haven't made anything cheaper and you've added tariffs, which he thinks somehow will make things cheaper, that's going to be a real hard thing to

answer for. and we're already seeing inflation tick up. i mean, inflation is really hard to deal with. they had a really hard time in biden world. and in fact they were like, should we price cap? i mean, there aren't great solutions to inflation, which is how we got here. >> and but all trump's economic tools make it worse, not better. at least biden was looking at a set of things that improved the problem. trump is looking at a set of things that every economist and business reporter says makes the problem worse. yes. all right, alex, we need you to stick around one more block. we're all going to sneak in a quick break, but we'll be right back. don't go anywhere. >> what was it. >> like when trump got elected? >> what was the what was. >> the reaction? >> do you. >> think about ice. >> coming to knock on your front door? >> t for president trump's first 100 days. alex wagner travels to the story to talk with people most impacted by the policies. >> were you there on january? i was. >> there on january 6th. >> did it surprise. >> you that you were fired. given how. resolutely nonpartisan. >> you have been? >> you have been? >> and for more in-depth some people just know they could save hundreds

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has suggested to ukraine that us be granted 50% ownership of that country's rare earth minerals and signaled an openness to deploying american troops there to guard them. the minerals, once there's a deal with russia to end the war. that is, according to four us officials. the us may not pay ukraine for the minerals to, officials said. rather, an ownership agreement would be a way for ukraine to reimburse the us for the billions of dollars in weapons and support it's provided kyiv since the war began. trump said he wants the us to get $500 million of ukraine's rare earth minerals. john heilemann no. >> look, trump's trying to do something. he's going to try to solve the russia ukraine war by doing some kind of weird strip mining like land management deal, i don't know.

>> i put a pin in the minerals and just go to the us troops. defense secretary pete hegseth said this week that us troops would not be deployed to ukraine as part of security guarantees. the wall street journal reported friday that vance said in an interview that the us sending troops to ukraine is on the table if russia does not negotiate a peace agreement. we are now sending troops to ukraine to protect minerals. >> i don't know, but i will say that i there's this echoes with the thing that i read or heard someplace in the last couple of days about trump's interest in increasingly serious interest in trying to annex canada, being about the minerals that canada has, the mineral thing. somehow some weird minerals are in trump's water right now. or there's some economist in his ear who's telling him about, you know, the. >> i doubt it's an economist or just, you know. >> people like, you know, some of those weird some there's some, you know, it's like the kind of economists who are like gold bugs. crypto like nuts or like these, you know, they're they're like, you know, peter navarro was an economist, right? in theory. no, i don't know, i don't remember. anyway, that's the it's the kind of thing you would hear in trump's economic circle. you know.

>> alex, i mean, you just wrote a whole book about trump. there's there was, there was like, so nine years ago to debate whether to take him literally or figuratively. he's now the country's commander in chief. and this is a serious story by serious journalists, the most, at least serious journalists at this network about trump sending troops to ukraine and stealing their minerals. >> yeah. and here's here's the thing. if you look at and i know you guys were talking about that derek adams matter earlier, but he at this point in his career, trump at this point in his career, he feels emboldened. he feels like he got away with a number of different things. when you look at the campaign indicted four times, he has been impeached a couple of times. there were a couple of assassination attempts on him. and if you look at what where he is right now, he feels sort of invincible at this point. and so no matter what the coverage looks like, no matter how much criticism he gets for his moves, he feels like he just wants to go and plow ahead. and so maybe

he'll get criticism for this. maybe not, but it doesn't necessarily bother him at this point. and so you've seen a number of moves over the last month that have been stunning, that have been outside the norms. but that doesn't necessarily bother him. >> is it legal? >> i mean, i it doesn't matter if it bothers him. he's not going to be able to do that. i mean, there's certainly stuff they're doing right now that courts have said they can't. right. and maybe they've stopped doing it and maybe they haven't. and we don't know. and that's the big question. are we hurtling towards a constitutional crisis. but you know, this is more than just being emboldened. like this is not okay. you know, this stuff is so beyond the norm. and in fact, like, you know, we're seeing multiple different walk backs. remember last week he said he was going to send troops to gaza. >> oh, right. paving gaza. yeah. alex. what? when you named the book revenge, did you think it would be the animating principle of a presidency in this country?

>> to some extent, yes. he made it pretty clear for a while that he wanted revenge on a lot of people. he went and spent the midterms of 2022 going after people like liz cheney. he spent a lot of time going after the judge. a lot of his focus has been on people who've crossed him. and so it was it only made sense that once he got into power, he would use his power to go after people that he didn't like. and so you talk about people like john bolton. you talk about people like general milley. it really only made sense that he would find he would use his power to find ways to get back at them. and so in that regard, in that respect, his decision to strip their security wasn't all that surprising. >> alex isenstadt molly jong-fast john heilemann, thank you so much for being here on this day with us. alex's book is called revenge the inside story of trump's return to power. it's available for preorder now. available for preorder now. quick b with hotels and vacation rentals,

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