100%. thank y'all. woman: thank you. thank y'all. andrea canning: judy's family says they can finally move on with their lives. and there's one thing that brings them peace. you're religious. does that give you any comfort to know-- josh orr: oh, it does andrea canning: --that your mom and dad are now together? oh, yeah. i mean, she's in-- they're in a better place than we are. andrea canning: what would you say to judy, if she could hear you? i would just tell her, i love her, and i would give her the biggest hug. that's all for this edition of "dateline." i'm andrea canning. thank you for watching. >> good morning. >> and. >> welcome to this. >> saturday edition of morning joe. weekend. it was another fast. >> moving week in politics. so let's get right to some of the

conversations you might have missed. the wall street journal editorial board is reacting. >> to. >> the confirmations. >> in a piece entitled. >> trump gets the. >> cabinet he wants. >> and. >> it. >> reads in part this republicans. seem poised to confirm all of president trump's. >> cabinet nominees. >> even those. >> who favor policies. >> most gop senators oppose. this is an impressive display of maga political muscle. but now the president and the party will have to live. >> with them. >> good luck. miss gabbard's. performance will be hard to track because as dni, she will be by necessity operate largely in secret. she has an isolationist streak and a soft spot for vladimir putin's russia. it's hard to believe. >> robert f. >> kennedy jr. >> will run health. >> and. >> human services, given his left wing views. now the. >> country will get. >> an hhs chief who won't say if the. mmr vaccine causes autism,

despite mountains of evidence that it does not. >> promising disruption is easy. >> the test of a cabinet is whether it delivers results or guest for first. >> one. >> to muster out is rfk jr. so a lot of controversy over these cabinet picks. joining us now, democratic. senator richard. >> blumenthal of connecticut. >> which cabinet pick. >> are you most. >> concerned about, senator? >> i think. >> i'm most. >> concerned about tulsi gabbard, but it's really a pretty close second in robert kennedy jr. they both failed to recognize the facts. and robert kennedy jr. >> poses a. >> real threat to our public health. tulsi gabbard to our national security. we're voting today on. a nominee for fbi. >> director kash. >> patel. >> who wants. >> to turn the fbi, apparently. into a sycophantic goon squad rather than the independent,

impartial, objective law enforcement agency it ought to be. as of enemies list, which he calls government gangsters. and he's on a manhunt. >> for them. >> and so. >> we're all at risk as. >> a result. >> of this. >> kind. >> of skewed. >> distorted approach. >> to law enforcement and the recent. >> revelations, shunned by my republican colleagues, show that he is covertly and personally directing or involved in directing the mass purge of fbi leadership and professional civil servants. >> he testified. >> in response to my questions, that there would never be retribution, that there would never be these kinds of political firings. and what is happening now, according to these whistleblowers, they're not second hand hearsay. as senator grassley has said, they are credible whistleblowers who are coming to us with what they have heard. >> so, senator. i'm curious. >> i know these. >> are very divisive.

>> times. >> but these cabinet picks, a lot of them have some very legitimate questions, and they have. >> said things. >> that are, i think, very clearly concerning. >> and in some. >> cases, disturbing. >> is there any interaction with. >> your republican counterparts, and if so, what do they say when you ask about. >> these things? >> mitch mcconnell. >> breaking yesterday with his republican colleagues telling the truth to power. >> indicates that maybe the. >> trump cult, the. intimidation and threats can be broken. our tools are limited. we're in the minority. they control. >> obviously. >> both houses of congress and the white house. >> and indirectly the united. >> states supreme court. >> but we're taking. >> the fight to republicans. >> in the halls of. congress in rallies. >> we're going. >> to. >> have a rally today at the veterans administration, which i'm leading as the ranking member on the veterans affairs committee. we are having town. >> halls. >> as i did just last sunday. in

saturday in our state. >> so we're. using the public. >> pressure that can. >> be. >> effective, as we saw with the funding freeze, where that kind of pressure showing the impacts on community health centers and head start and medicare and medicaid grants actually moved republicans and led to the administration. backing off. >> so i think. >> there is hope, but i'm very clear. >> eyed that. >> our tools are. >> limited, and we need. >> to really galvanize a citizens movement here that will bring pressure to bear on republican colleagues. >> senator blumenthal, good morning. >> let's zero in. >> on. >> the on the kash patel. >> nomination, please. there's obviously. >> been a. lot of upheaval. >> at the fbi. >> at the. department of justice, some firings of the staffers who were involved. >> in the cases surrounding. >> donald trump. >> and now. >> as you know. >> also a call to. >> identify any agent. >> who had. >> anything to do with the

january. >> 6th case. mr. patel. >> has denied involvement. there has been some reporting. >> to. >> suggest otherwise. >> what are your views. >> on this? what are some. >> questions that he needs to answer? >> well. >> he has answered them arguably incorrectly, maybe even falsely. and i. >> think we need. >> another hearing with kash patel to give him the chance to answer these allegations because they are really completely disqualifying the fact that he has been involved, reportedly, in covertly directing a purge within the fbi when he said there would not be one. you know, he has glorified the january 6th rioters, calling them political prisoners and aiding them. he has that enemies list. he calls it government gangsters. it's deeply frightening to have a potential director of this investigative agency using it and weaponizing it for political purposes, when that agency is also responsible

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>> it works like a dream. why didn't. >> someone. >> think of this sooner? >> president trump speaking with russian president vladimir. >> putin about ending the war. >> in ukraine. >> it has. >> been almost three years. >> since russian troops invaded their neighbor, starting a conflict that has killed and injured hundreds of thousands of soldiers. the call between. >> president trump. >> and putin is their. >> first confirmed. >> conversation since. >> trump's return. >> to the white house. >> president trump says that he's. >> agreed to. visit russia, and putin. >> has agreed to. come to the united states, but that the. >> two leaders would likely first meet somewhere else a neutral site. >> trump floated. >> saudi arabia. >> as a possibility. >> yesterday at. >> the white house. reporters pressed trump on peace talks.

>> without. >> the ukrainian president. >> freezing out president. >> zelensky of this process. >> but isn't. >> there. >> a. danger of that? no. >> i don't think so. as long as he's there. but, you know, at some point you're going to have to have elections, too. you're gonna have to have an election. >> do you. >> view ukraine. >> as an equal member. >> of this. >> peace process? >> it's an. >> interesting question. i think they have to make peace. their people are being killed, and i think they have to make peace. >> nato membership. >> for ukraine. >> i don't think it's practical to have it personally. >> just to be. >> clear. >> do. >> you. >> see any future in which ukraine. >> returns to. >> its pre 2014 borders? >> well, i think pete said today that that's unlikely, right. it certainly would seem to be unlikely. >> ultimately these are both. >> demands that russia has made in the past. is there not. >> a danger of. >> handing russia a kind of win. >> on this? >> well. >> well, i think that if you look at the war, the way the war is going, you have to make your

own determination. i'm just here to try and get peace. i don't care so much about anything other than i want to stop having millions of people killed. >> president trump. >> did speak with president zelenskyy. >> yesterday, writing on social media that the conversation went very well. >> trump says. >> vice president j.d. vance and secretary of. >> state marco rubio. >> are set to meet. >> with zelenskyy. >> tomorrow in munich. >> ahead of that meeting, treasury secretary scott bessent met with president zelenskyy yesterday in kyiv to discuss. >> an agreement. that would. >> trade access. >> to ukrainian natural. >> resources for. continued military support. >> zelensky described. >> it as a detailed. plan on a strategic partnership. >> between the two countries that. >> would include. opportunities for american. >> businesses. >> and said that ukraine. >> wanted investment. >> in its resources. >> meanwhile. >> the secretary of defense. >> pete hegseth.

>> made his first appearance. >> at the. >> ukraine defense contact group in brussels. >> yesterday. >> where he overhauled the u.s. >> stance on. >> europe's largest. conflict since world war two. the group was formed by. former secretary lloyd austin as a. >> coalition in. support of ukraine. >> hegseth called. >> for. >> an end to the war. >> but said. >> any goal of. >> returning ukraine. >> to its. >> pre 2014 borders is. unrealistic. ruled. >> out nato. >> membership for ukraine. >> we are. >> at, as. >> you said, mr. >> secretary, a. >> critical moment as the war approaches its third anniversary. our message is clear. the bloodshed must stop and this war must end. >> we want. >> like you, a sovereign and prosperous ukraine. but we must start by recognizing that returning to ukraine's pre 2014 borders is an unrealistic

objective. chasing this illusionary goal will only prolong the war and cause more suffering. that said, the united states does. not believe that nato membership for ukraine is a realistic outcome of a negotiated settlement. instead, any security guarantee must be backed by capable european and non-european troops. if these troops are deployed as peacekeepers to ukraine at any point, they should be deployed as part of a non nato mission. and they should not be covered under article five. there also must be robust international oversight of the line of contact. to be clear, as part of any security guarantee, there will not be us troops deployed to ukraine. safeguarding european security must be an imperative for european members of nato. as part of this, europe

must provide the overwhelming share of future lethal and non-lethal aid to ukraine. >> joining us. >> live from. >> nato headquarters in brussels, nbc. >> news international correspondent. >> raf sanchez. >> where does. >> this. >> leave ukraine in. >> terms of support from the u.s. and nato? >> well. >> mika, ukraine. >> really suffering. >> a12 punch at. >> the hands of the trump administration, as you said, president trump speaking to vladimir. >> putin of russia before volodymyr. zelensky of ukraine. inviting putin to the white house and not zelensky. and this is exactly. >> what the ukrainians did not want the. russians in the ear of the president shaping. >> this conversation before. >> these negotiations. >> have. >> even begun. and then. >> pete hegseth, the new secretary. >> of defense, delivering that second blow here. >> at nato. >> headquarters in brussels. >> he did not give. >> a. forceful statement in. support of ukraine.

>> instead, he made. >> a. >> list of things the. united states. >> expects ukraine. >> to give up. >> as you heard. >> in. >> that sound bite you played. >> he said. it is. >> not realistic. >> for ukraine. >> to continue. >> trying to recover all of the. >> territory that. >> it. >> has lost. >> to russia. so that. >> is both. >> territory lost since. >> the full scale invasion began back. >> in february. >> 2022. but also areas lost since 2014, including crimea. >> he also. >> said. >> that ukraine. >> needs to. >> abandon its. >> goal of. nato membership as. >> part of these peace negotiations. and i can. tell you, mika. >> there is deep. >> frustration here. >> among the nato allies. you heard. >> the german defense. minister saying very. >> bluntly that in his. >> assessment. >> the trump. >> administration is. >> making concessions. >> to putin. before these negotiations. >> have even begun. >> now. >> secretary hegseth. >> was asked this morning, is the united states betraying ukraine? >> he denied that. as you can imagine. >> he pointed to the billions.

>> of dollars in support. >> that. >> the u.s. has given ukraine. >> we should say that his support that came under the. biden administration. >> and it is very. >> unclear whether that support is. >> going to continue. >> at this level. >> in his statement. >> yesterday, hegseth said that. going forward, it is the european. >> allies who will be expected. >> to provide the bulk of. military support to ukraine. >> he said the united states is focusing on. china and the indo-pacific and on its. >> own borders, and. >> that it is downgrading. >> european security as a priority. >> up next. >> our friend. >> chris hayes will join us. his new book, the siren's. call how attention. became the world's most endangered resource, debuted at number one on the new york times best seller list last week. morning joe weekend will week. morning joe weekend will be. dry eyes still feel gritty, rough, or tired? with miebo, eyes can feel ♪ miebo ♪ ♪ ohh yeah ♪ miebo is the only prescription dry eye drop that forms a protective layer for the number one cause of dry eye:

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>> free call consumer cellular. >> what do you think of. >> books connecting? >> oh, i think, you know, the book is about attention and how

we sort of live in this perpetual state of distraction against our own will. and like odysseus bound to the mast, we're fighting all the time to retain dominion over our own minds. and i think that was true a years ago about the relationship we have to this and to screens. and then now in the last two weeks, all of public life is that way. like, it's completely mirrored between our relationship to this device and then our relationship to what's happening in the white house, where the literal venn diagram of these two things, elon musk, who owns one of the platforms, right, is also the person driving this kind of compulsive attention seeking behavior that's coming from the white house. i mean, trump has done more events, public events in the first two weeks than most presidents do in the first six months. i want to say, right. like the way that your phone is buzzing with notifications, that's now the white house, right? number one rule, by the way, kids at home. >> if you don't want to end up. addicted to your smartphone.

>> like eddie gloud. turn off all notifications. that is the first actual interventions with people. >> that is the first thing. >> that the. >> silicon valley titans will tell you. >> that that that. >> that like they they. >> don't let their kids on. >> screen time. and the. >> first thing they. >> tell you is. >> on this attention. turn off all notifications. >> the key thing here is. >> because as i write in the book, we have this faculty for what i, you know, involuntary attention, right? if you're in a restaurant and a waiter drops a tray of glasses, right. everyone looks before you get to decide whether you want to look or not like or if you're looking at your phone on the street and the car honks like it wrenches your attention. they hardwired that faculty into the phone with notifications and the haptic buzz that is the car honk is reaching into the deep wiring of your brain. exactly. >> because i have four. >> children, you. >> know, i've paid close. >> attention to. >> this. >> and not. >> only for. >> children, but for. >> myself, for mika, for everybody. and there was a

study. >> where they had four. >> adults on the phone just on the table. >> four adults. >> on. >> the table. >> turn the. >> phone. >> off. >> and the. >> adults still glanced at. >> their phone. >> every 14 seconds. >> every because. >> we're conditioned. so let me ask this. >> question because. >> i will say. >> i and i am. serious that doomscrolling. >> it's really bad. >> for you. >> it really. >> is. >> i think. >> i think it helps. >> not you, but for all. >> of us. >> it we lose perspective. we really lose perspective. >> on what's out there. it also, you know. there's the. rudyard kipling poem. >> if you can. >> keep your head about. >> you when. >> all those around you are losing theirs. >> i didn't. >> say it. >> perfectly, but it's all about. >> like. >> i'm not saying anybody. should be zen going through this. i am saying strategically, we. are better. >> if we keep. >> our minds. >> about us. >> and if we keep it. in perspective. so. >> mara, let me ask you, what's

so? >> i used to. >> you know. >> since 2009, twitter nonstop was fun, right? i'm not. >> going to lie. yeah, it was fun. okay. the good old days. >> that's right. >> never done cocaine. >> but it was. >> like. >> okay, okay. so. >> so those were the good old days. >> but now. you have the doomscrolling. >> it's gotten so toxic. >> yeah. >> so the question is how. >> do you. >> and i. >> come to you? because the new york. >> times editorial this. >> weekend was extraordinary. >> they said. >> do not disconnect. >> right. >> do not. >> but there. >> is a balance. >> so. >> so what. >> what is. >> that balance? >> well. >> it's interesting because. >> we assume that connection. >> means being wired to our phones. >> but actually that is what is stopping. >> us in many. >> cases from. >> connecting in a meaningful. way with our family members, our friends. >> our community. so i think what.

>> we actually meant. >> was get. >> plugged back in with your community. >> so there's a. >> bell curve. >> i think, here. >> and it's hard to find that for all of us. >> and my friends and. >> i are all. >> texting each other. >> at night. i'm going to put my phone in the bedroom so i can't. >> look at it for an hour. >> you know. >> i'm going to. >> leave it when i go for. >> a walk so that i can focus on just talking to you and. >> listening to. what's going. >> on in your life. so we're all kind. >> of trying to. find strategies, but i but i think. more broadly speaking, just for our politics, people have to start getting together in person and. >> talking about. >> what is. >> happening in. >> our lives. and in this country. there's a loneliness. epidemic as well, the entire country. and i think. >> the phone. >> is so. >> tempting because it makes. you feel. >> like you're connected. and in. >> some ways, yes, it. can help, but after a certain point, it's not the same connection. >> as. in-person connection, and it actually distracts. >> you and prevents. >> you from getting. outside the door. >> and you're. >> so right. >> about connecting. >> with people. >> and i.

>> connect with people who. >> voted in a. >> way i. >> will never understand, but. >> it sure. >> does help to. talk to them. and it's not one of these things. >> like. >> i am going. >> to drive to central pennsylvania. >> and no. >> i just talked to my relatives. >> i talked to. >> my friends. >> i talked. >> to, i. sometimes i will. >> go on public forums where people are talking, and it is fascinating to hear. a 34. year old man. who voted democratic until donald trump started running and just sit there and listen, right. >> and again. >> it that helps. >> and again, i'm not saying to. >> say i. >> want to understand. >> why. >> you know, people are out there saying screw the supreme court. no. >> right. >> the politician. >> in me. >> says. >> okay, so. >> i don't understand what happened in november, but i. >> do. >> understand i don't want it to happen. >> next november. >> yeah, yeah. >> and so that's where you have to get uncomfortable. and.

>> you know. >> i. >> will say. >> i keep trying. >> to. >> flip phone. >> yeah. >> i keep getting. >> pulled back. and i will tell. >> you the flip. >> phone because. >> your. >> kids have it. you know. >> your your spouse has it. and you. >> know that when you. >> go out. >> if you know. >> so that's helped. i, i do wonder though, eddie, also when we're talking about attention. and this all goes back to chris's book, if democrats are trying to get an answer on where they need. >> to go. >> they're not going to get that answer. doomscrolling and i don't mean to. >> sound like an. >> old man. >> no. that's true. >> they're going to get that answer. >> on a walk. on a long walk. >> they're going to get that answer when they're sitting in their house reading a book. they're going to get that answer. >> by maybe. >> reading a book of fiction. it's not, you know, doomscrolling won't get it. i talked about being at jimmy

carter's funeral. and. >> you know, people. >> are like, how how do you get. >> past disinformation? >> i think in large part. democrats and independents and republicans who. care about the things that we care about. i think in large part, you go back to basics. you go back to simplicity. of all the things i've heard, that one of the most beautiful things in carter's funeral, ted mondale, was. reading his. >> father's. >> his his father's. words on jimmy. >> carter eulogy. >> and he said they were going to put this document together. to sum up what happened over. >> their. >> four years in the white house. and that document ended up being we told the truth. we respected the law. >> we kept the peace. >> sometimes that. >> cuts through a billion tweets. >> absolutely. a hemingway like sentence is much better than an henry james sentence. i think i

want to just say that very clearly, but i want to be very, very i want i want to. >> push back. >> a little bit, joe. and that is to say, it's, you know, we it's not just doomscrolling. right? sometimes there's a, a public with which you are in conversation with that you can drive information to now that public can be surrounded by digital red shirts, can be surrounded by performative virtue folks. and they intervene and they attack you, and then you get mobbed and the like. but there's a. >> way in. >> which we can use these platforms, particularly the younger generation, to drive information to each other. right. it's true that in this moment where you think a certain kind of understanding of character is bound up with the. formation of attention, how we attend to each other, and we in a moment and this comes out of critiques of. >> mass consumer. >> culture all the way to this moment. we're experiencing the deformation of attention in interesting sorts of ways, and the deformation of attention has everything to do with look at the birdie over here, look at. >> this over here. >> and not pay attention to this right here. but what i'm

thinking about is that you're right. we have to do those simple things. >> those those those. >> you know, face to face things. >> those bodily contact. >> corporately engagements. but we also have to understand that these things. >> have fundamentally changed how we live. >> our lives. and we have to figure out how to do it. just like because a lot of what we're saying people were saying about the radio. yeah, a lot of things people were saying about television. now this is dramatically different, but it's a technological intervention in how we. >> deal with. >> i will say, though, and yes, the. >> radio changed america. the television changed so much. but here we're talking about a rewiring of the brain. could you talk about how social media has rewired the brain, how smartphones rewired the brain? i mean, you can look at the numbers. when kids started getting smartphones in 2010, 2011, everything changed that. nothing magical happened. it's not it's not because something magical happened in washington, d.c. in 2010 or 11. it's because

kids started getting smartphones and i don't see a lot of good coming out. >> of that. >> i mean, you've got i mean, in terms of the sort of empirical measurements, right? we've seen global reading scores decline. my favorite thing is that we're seeing more and more evidence that americans, the aggregate testing on cognitive tests is declining, which shouldn't happen as a country gets richer, right? as countries get richer, richer. those tests tend to go up. it's called the flynn effect. so we've seen the beginnings of a reversal of that. so there's clearly something happening. yeah. and i think, you know, one of the things that when you think like do you feel it or not, it's like everyone feels it. but to eddie's point, i think this is really important is that i do think it's sort of it's interesting to try to separate two things. the particular form of monetized attention capitalism we have with these platforms. right, right. that have created slot machines whose whole point is to maximize the number of hours that you look at it. right. and then the core of digital connection, which is an amazing thing which has

transformed the world, which has which is sort of creating and recreating publics all the time. there are ways to have one without the other, like we've had versions of an internet that was much more open, much less captured by the algorithmic feed than the one we have now. i came up in that internet. i love that internet, right? i sound like an old man, like waxing nostalgic. so i think that's one of the things to think about. how was glenn miller live? >> yeah. >> or what was it like to. >> just go to a web. >> page and type in a url that you wrote down on a piece of paper? >> you mean like you're waiting for. >> the modem to connect? >> yeah. thinking. yeah. like, but the. >> last thing and i think this is part of the sort of weird, poisonous moment we're in. there's it is both the case that online is not real life, in that the kind of mobbing that happens in that space and. >> the not real. >> attentional social dynamics are distorted. right. and it is also the case that, like we're watching in the case of elon musk, like he is very real, he is very powerful and his

behavior is being driven 100% by the twisted psychology of this kind of social attention addiction. and that is real life, like the stuff that elon musk does in the world, right? that he is, that is that he is being conditioned to do by his exchange with this platform. right? is absolutely happening in the world. and i will. >> say. >> while frightening. to millions and millions of americans, that's also an opportunity for democrats and independents and republicans. that don't want to go that way. and that opportunity is because it's not a reflection. >> of real life. >> yes. >> democrats play off of that. there's so much here. >> it's so crazy, what. >> 1.5%, 1.5%. >> 1.5% is. is what. >> what made the difference. and i will say again, i think the democrats need to get. >> right on so. >> many things. but this whole

idea. >> that this was a huge. >> washout and the elon. >> musks of. >> of america. >> have won. >> the cultural battle. i'm so old and so. tired of every. >> election being treated like the. >> last one. >> yeah. >> and we'll have much more. >> of the conversation with >> of the conversation with chris hayes an alternative to pills, voltaren is a clinically proven arthritis pain relief gel, which penetrates deep to target the source of pain with nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medicine directly at the source. voltaren, the joy of movement. are you looking for a walk-in tub for you or someone you love? well, look no further! a safe step walk-in tub is the best in its class. the ultra low, easy step helps keep you safe from having to climb over those high wall tubs, allowing you to age gracefully in the home you love. now, for a limited time, when you purchase your brand new safe step walk-in tub. you'll receive a free safety package.

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conversation we were having just before the break. >> i remember telling a member of the obama administration. like a year and a half in when they just still were just thinking everything they did was right. like, do you not think that george w. bush's team and karl rove, when they walked through the white house gates? do you not think they thought they were the smartest people in the world? this changes, and i will just say to people at home that think that this election was a. watershed election. a lesbian woman won in wisconsin, a woman won in michigan for the senate. >> a really progressive, really. >> progressive. >> hispanic won in arizona, a woman won in nevada. now, if you just took those four races. >> yeah. >> just those four. >> races, you. >> would. >> look at those four races and go, oh my god, this country is

really moving. >> to the left. >> right? >> so donald. >> trump won. yeah he won. but but to go that oh wisconsin is far right. and it supports everything that elon musk and donald trump. no. >> if you were if you the way i would say it is this let's say you're in a room. it's got 100 people and there's 52 people in black shirts and 50 and 48 in white shirts. if two of them change their shirts, that's the election. it is. >> but it. >> would be crazy to be like, i don't recognize this room. yeah, that's the election. and that's literally. that's the election. 52 to 48. two people walk over. they walk in, they go. >> this is not my room anymore. >> yeah, yeah. >> this is not my. and i will say, this is the genius. the i better say mad genius. this is the mad genius of donald trump. where you fill the zone so much that you do for. you twist and. distort reality. so people like

eddie on social media 24. >> hours. >> a day think that all. >> is lost. >> it's like the end of the redford movie. all is lost. >> you don't. you don't think all is lost. >> do you think all is lost? >> you're teaching a baldwin seminar. >> i'm grappling with. >> whether or. >> not i'm. >> grappling with. >> whether or not the country is redeemable in my in my, in. >> my latest work. >> because those. >> two shirts. >> because of. >> the reason. >> why the 48 shirts. >> look the way. >> they look. >> and the reason why they look the way they look. everything in the us, america is not about race, but everything is about race, actually, on so many different levels. and part of what i'm trying to figure out is what would motivate the american public to give to put donald trump behind the resolute desk again. and if that motivation isn't. the price of eggs, which we were told it was, but is something else that actually reflects something much deeper in the country, that goes.

>> back to. >> what you're saying. those 52 shirts. of 51, it's always is about race. >> no, i'm talking about the 52 is if i understood the 52, 48 right, 52% right. >> but what i'm saying is, you're saying the 52, you're saying the margin was impacted because of. >> the very things you're talking about, those split ticket voting. >> right, right. >> it doesn't it doesn't make sense that she would lose in these states and these these other women would win. >> i mean. >> i ask. >> can i ask you a question? >> sure. no, no. >> if barack obama were running against donald trump this year, who do you think would have won? oh my. >> god. >> you don't even have to think that long. >> i'm going. >> to. >> say i was going to say donald trump, but the same. >> reason obama. would want. >> donald venmo. >> would have. >> walked away with it. >> are you. >> kidding me? no. >> george w. >> bush would have beaten donald trump. oh my. >> god, oh. >> my god. we. oh, no. >> well, here's a question. do you think since we're just. yeah. counterfactual. just like

on earth. on twin earth. one thing that i wrestle with, because it relates to this question about how the deep stuff that's going on is, does nikki haley win win by a bigger. what does nikki haley outperform donald trump as the republican nominee? >> i think i think that. >> if you think no and i think no, i thought yes, the whole election and now i think no, i do think there was a special sauce there. >> i think, i think i think the first woman and i'm not the first to say this like the president is, is a republican woman. >> oh, that i agree with. but do you think haley outperforms trump? well, if she's the nominee, no. >> it takes. >> you that long to answer that question. >> well, my god, you don't think barack obama would have beaten donald trump? no, that is shocking to me. >> you know what? >> what? >> because at the heart of donald trump's strategy is that there are more of us that don't vote than them. how do i turn out the disaffected, white, low propensity voter? and he does it

every. >> he did. >> it every single time when he's not on the ballot. they don't show. >> up when he's on the ballot. >> they show. >> up when. you're making. >> you're making my point. you're making my point, which is which is. and this is what i've seen over 30 years in politics, people always, i always. and i even told republicans on, on the house floor when we were going around, we're going to burn the place down to balance the budget. after a couple of years, i'd say to them, go, guys, i've been out. people aren't ideological, right? right. like if we want to balance the budget, we're not going to balance the budget by. but we have to have. >> a better. >> argument and connect that to people's lives. and so what i found is this political athletes, when ronald reagan in 1980, was far more conservative than america, ronald reagan won in landslides in 80 and 84. and everybody thought that the

reagan coalition was transferable and that the world had moved, changed on its axis. and then bill clinton got elected. and then everybody thought democrats thought, i can be bill clinton. no, bill clinton can be bill clinton and then barack obama. right. barack obama wins. and my god, what a massive majority he started with. but the obama coalition, which everybody thought was transferable, not transferable. and that's why donald trump and this the point. donald trump wins because he's donald trump. like donald trump's political skills are not transferable. just like reagan's weren't just like clinton's weren't just like obama's weren't just like his weren't. >> yeah. >> but i think that's right. i think it's also true that the country at large is so at. >> the moment, distrustful of institutions, of government, of people who work in government. there's so much anger. and that is one of the only kind of constant threads between.

>> republicans and. >> democrats is. >> a. >> distrust of all of these. >> institutions. >> including the media, by. >> the way. >> yeah. and i think. at that moment. >> that moment is made for someone like donald trump. >> to come along. >> as a i'm going to come break. things and. be a disrupter. >> now. no one here. >> believes that that's that he is the solution, right? >> no question. >> but i think, unfortunately, that coalition, the democratic. >> coalition, small d. >> is broken. >> up next. >> we'll take a. look at a new. crime series, a cruel love, which tells the story of the last woman hanged in britain. >> actress lucy. >> boynton is here to discuss her. role and what to expect. >> from the new show. >> morning joe weekend. >> morning joe weekend. >> will here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need,

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britbox titled a cruel love the ruth ellis story. it recreates the high profile 1950s murder trial of ruth ellis, a london nightclub manager who was convicted and later hanged for killing her abusive boyfriend. at the time. the case captivated the british public, bringing into question how the press coverage of ellis and her trial may have affected its outcome. >> we've just seen the body of. david blakely. >> at. >> hampstead mortuary. >> david. >> i understand you know something about it. >> i am guilty. >> i'm rather confused. >> half a. >> dozen. >> witnesses saw a shoot. >> likely you have signed a written. >> statement admitting. >> your guilt. >> why did you decide. >> to do what. >> you did? >> can i buy you a drink. >> in this place, mr. blakely? let me get you on. are you. >> admitted to a capital crime?

>> any judge would be forced. >> to hang. >> joining us now, the star of that show, lucy boynton, she portrays ruth ellis. you saw her there in those clips. lucy, thanks for joining us. i was looking at the ways that you've talked about the revival of this stories and the parallels that you see between the harsh way that ruth ellis was treated in the press and ultimately in the decision that the legal system made there, but then also the parallels to modern women today. explore that for us. that's such. an interesting point. >> i think what was so difficult at the time was that ruth didn't have a voice of her own, so the public's understanding of her was very limited because it was subject to a small collection of journalists and how they deemed her. and i think they had a very specific idea at the time of how a woman should be, how a woman should conduct herself. and thankfully, we've progressed from there. and i think women do have more of a platform now to speak for themselves. but but

the media do still have a huge role and a huge responsibility to play in how the public perceive these people. so it was a privilege to be a part of really reexamining this story with a contemporary lens. >> did you. >> know her? you know, she's the last woman to be put to. death in the uk. did you know. about her story? and also. >> as you were. >> telling the story, did you you know, what did you sort of feel about that period? >> i didn't. >> my shame. i didn't know her story and i definitely didn't know the extent. >> of. >> the case. i mean, so much more information has come to light about how the trial actually played out. since it's since then and since it's last been examined in mainstream media. so it was a huge education. and i tried to go in kind of analytically analysis first, emotion second when approaching the role and then very clearly, very quickly, i realized that wasn't possible. i think there's no neutrality when it comes to domestic violence like this. >> yeah. can you. >> tell.

>> me what you. >> learned about the public's. >> reaction at the time? and then talk a. >> little. >> bit about. >> the legacy. of this case. >> and actually. >> you didn't know. >> about it yourself. >> you said so. so maybe it's not. widely known in the country, but can you talk a little bit about that? >> i think the. >> details of it definitely aren't as widely known. so i'm so excited that this series does explore new information for the public. so it will be very illuminating. but i think, yeah, it was it was a tremendous education, i think. sorry. remind me. >> of the first. >> yeah, sure. >> so i'm wondering. >> if you could. >> talk a little bit about how the public viewed this case at the time. >> i think it was so interesting because there was mass public outcry. so many people were really ignited by this case and wrote passionate letters to their mps saying that this was a miscarriage of justice, that she did not deserve to be hanged. but it was a political piece. i mean, and so they their cries were ignored and it became a very bureaucratic kind of chess move, i think. so she was really

used as an example and used as a kind of piece of propaganda, i think, as to how they didn't want women to be in present themselves. thanks, lucy. >> let's take. >> a. look at a clip where your character. >> ruth speaks with. >> her lawyer while in prison. >> is it true that you have been campaigning for me? i told you, no begging, no pleading. >> you've seen. what they've. >> written about you. >> i don't care what they write. i want my sentence to take its course. you will not go. >> to the home office. >> i will not die with this world. >> thinking i am some beaten little fool. >> well. >> that's it then. >> that is. justice and eye for an eye, as i have said from the start. >> an eye for an eye. >> remarkable. what? >> what what. >> would you love, lucy? >> what would you. >> love for viewers. >> to take. >> from a. cruel love?

>> new empathy and understanding for the case. and also an understanding of how vital it is currently. especially to examine how the judicial system treat women. >> don't go anywhere. we have a second hour of morning joe weekend for you right after the break. >> we will give you. >> and doug, you'll. >> be back. >> emus can help people. >> customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. >> you're just. >> a flightless bird. you. >> he's a. >> dreamer, frank. >> elena kagan and doug. >> well. i'll be. >> that bird. >> really did it. >> only pay for what. >> you need. liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. >> sure. vistaprint prints business cards. but we also print these. and those and engrave that. we print your brand on everything so customers can notice you, remember you, and fall in love with you if you

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