but, you know, the white house itself is saying that elon musk is going to basically. police his own contracts, right? >> so i. >> think that republicans. are sort of. >> in this tough spot. >> here, and it will be interesting to see what. >> they do. >> thank you. >> for your incredible reporting, because we're getting nowhere unless people report the stories that you report and that we can discuss them. we appreciate that. kirsten grind and eric lipton are investigative reporters for the new york times. if you haven't read their story on elon musk's connections to the government, you should. all right, straight ahead. former u.s. treasury secretary larry summers joins me to discuss the trump administration's potential constitutional overreach with the efforts to meddle in the department that he used to lead treasury. and a quick note scan this qr code on your screen to follow me on blue sky. you can find me at social, but all you actually have to do is scan the qr code. is that a qr code? yeah, that's. i never get this right. i've been calling it a barcode. scan the qr code with your phone and it'll take you right to my page. another hour of el sheikh begins right now.

good morning to you. it is saturday, february the 15th. day 26 of donald trump's second term since returning to the white house. president trump and his administration have moved aggressively to expand the powers of the executive branch and fundamentally remake the federal government. and it's putting the constitution through a stress test. in less than a month, the president has signed a number of executive orders to undo biden era actions and to enact his own policies, including some of dubious legal merit. one such order seeks to end birthright citizenship a right embedded in the 14th amendment of the constitution. four different federal judges have blocked that from taking effect so far, but the case could end up in the supreme court, which is likely what the trump administration wants. the administration has also taken numerous norm breaking steps in an effort to completely upend how the federal government operates, and to test the limits of the president's powers. we've seen one crucial example of this rapidly unfold in just the last

72 hours. last night, the department of justice moved to dismiss a serious and ongoing criminal corruption case against the new york city mayor, eric adams. but the move was preceded by plenty of drama that resulted in at least seven resignations within the department of justice, including danielle sassoon, who was the top prosecutor at the southern district of new york. sassoon resigned on thursday after the acting deputy attorney general ordered her to drop the adams case earlier in the week. beauvais argued that the case interfered with adams ability to help carry out trump's immigration crackdown. danielle sassoon refused to dismiss the case. what we're seeing is an extraordinary revolt within the doj about the dismantling of the justice department's independence to do its job. but remember, president trump ran on a campaign of retribution and promised to, quote, investigate the investigators. many are questioning whether beauvais, the president's former personal lawyer who is now acting deputy attorney general, has the right to interfere with the work of

the s.d.n.y. it's the southern district of new york, but it's often jokingly called the sovereign district of new york because of its its independence. more broadly, this is a question of whether the executive is asserting specific influence that it does or shouldn't or doesn't have over government government departments, including the doj, which though a government agency has historically enjoyed a lot of independence. many of the men and women who occupy, well, many of there were no women who occupied the white house. many of the men who occupied the white house before trump have redefined and expanded the powers of the presidency in various ways. sometimes that was arguably necessary to address some great upheavals in american history, like when fdr implemented his wide ranging new deal programs to claw america out of the great depression. but recent presidents have continued to push the limits of their powers, especially with their increasing reliance on executive orders that bypass congress entirely. and it's become a more common and normalized aspect of the presidency. but none of them

have tried to specifically upend the balance of power with the speed and the intention that this administration has. in fact, earlier this week, a federal judge in rhode island said that the trump administration was not in full compliance with his temporary restraining order regarding the administration's attempt to freeze the disbursement of federal funds through the treasury system. and that appeared to be the first sign of judicial defiance by the white house. amid the dozens of lawsuits that have been filed to challenge its early actions. it prompted some legal scholars to warn that what's unfolding is a constitutional crisis, and has provoked many questions about what would happen if the president simply refuses to comply with court orders or dismisses the legitimacy of one of the other co-equal branches of government, or the courts or congress. members of trump's administration are also proponents of something called the unitary executive theory. they want to expand the powers of the presidency. and adding to these concerns is the rhetoric that's coming from some government officials, like j.d.

vance, who recently posted on social media, quote, judges aren't allowed to control the executive's legitimate power, end quote. now, vance's post is a misdirection because the courts aren't trying to control the executive's legitimate power, but it is their responsibility to ensure that everyone, including the other branches of government, are operating within legal and constitutional grounds. meanwhile, in response to the administration's early legal setbacks, white house press secretary caroline leavitt said on wednesday, quote, we believe these judges are acting as judicial activists rather than honest arbiters of the law. end quote. these attacks on the judicial branch seek to neuter its power to restrain the executive branch. ideally, america's system of checks and balances would actually keep the president in check, but the courts don't have an enforcement arm to compel the executive branch to follow its orders. that work could and should be the responsibility of congress. but we're witnessing now, republicans in congress have

almost completely capitulated to trump, making the legislative branch an ineffective check on the presidency, which is paving the way for further consolidation of power in the executive branch that could disturb many aspects of american government governance. this week, a group of former treasury secretaries wrote an op ed warning about those dangers. quote, we take the extraordinary step of writing this piece because we are alarmed about the risks of arbitrary and capricious political control of federal payments, which would be unlawful and corrosive to our democracy. a key component of the rule of law is the executive branch's commitment to respect congress's power of the purse. the legislative branch has the sole authority to pass laws that determine how and where federal dollars should be spent. end quote. joining me now, larry summers, the former secretary of the treasury during the clinton administration, he's one of the people who co-wrote that op ed. he's a professor and president emeritus of harvard university.

larry, it's good to see you again. thank you for being with us. this is an important point because we saw the numbers the treasury payment system processed last year, $6.7 trillion in payments to individuals, to agencies, to all sorts of people. it is where the money comes from. and the decisions about where that money comes from are made by congress as representatives of the american people. this is core to our democracy. >> yes. >> and the. >> treasury's function. is a. >> technical financial one. >> not one that. >> should involve political. or administrative discretion. their job is to allocate the payments. like your social security benefits or like somebody's tax return, or like the reimbursement. >> for a. >> defense contractor. that have. >> been incurred, according to. >> congressional mandates. and if there's a sense that.

>> that's being. subverted and payments are being. >> judged on an ad hoc basis by some non-governmental official, that's something that's potentially very threatening. >> now, it's. >> unclear what exactly. >> it is that is happening. >> but some. >> of. the rhetoric. >> that has come out. from the. >> doj's group. as caused many. of us to. be concerned, the fact that the person. >> who was. >> in charge of this. technical administrative. >> apparatus has, for the last 75 years, been a career. civil servant rather than a. >> political person. >> and that's been changed in. >> the last month, has been. >> a cause. >> for concern. >> now, secretary bessent has said. >> there isn't any cause for concern and that this is all just about making the system.

more efficient. >> and better tuned in terms of stopping illicit payments. >> all of us want to stop illicit. >> or illegal. >> payments. >> so we're going to have to see. but we wrote the. piece as a caution. >> because we think we're on pretty. shaky ground. >> in terms of what's been done. >> with personnel. >> and some of. >> the things. >> that the new personnel have done. >> take us behind the curtain a little bit, because treasury is unique in this particular instance, because as a as a treasury secretary, you you work for the executive branch. the executive branch is where the presidency lives. so i'm sure there were always tensions between you and congress about what should be done. but you always had to understand that congress controls the has the power of the purse, that they make those decisions. i'm sure you were called before hearings in which you wanted to emphasize certain priorities or others,

but at no point, as treasury secretary where you could legally be inside the system, would you ever have thought to redirect something or not pay something or pay something more? that was just never within your power as treasury secretary, let alone special employees of the government like elon musk? >> look. >> the treasury secretary has a lot of powers. >> we, the irs. >> is under the treasury department. >> but that. >> didn't mean. that i could. decide who was going to be. audited on their taxes. >> it didn't mean that i could decide who was going to get relief from a tax audit. it didn't mean that i could decide to stop a particular federal payment, or. to turn on a. >> particular federal. >> payment that. i thought was worthy. and certainly it didn't mean that i could do those things in. response to. politicized instructions from

the. >> white house. >> and that's the aspect of. >> the traditional. >> rule of. law that is called. >> into. >> question here. this was litigated fairly extensively during. >> president nixon's administration, when. there were. related attempts. >> to freeze certain payments. >> and the. >> supreme court. >> was pretty unambiguous. >> that you're not allowed to do that. and the nixon administration went into immediate compliance. so, look, i think the profound. >> question here. >> is whether. >> we are going to have an administration. that understands. >> that the american. >> system depends upon compliance with court orders. >> president nixon and what ultimately led to his. >> impeachment was. >> certainly problematic in many ways. but that administration.

>> did understand the primacy of law. >> and the need. >> to respond. >> to court. >> orders. >> passions ran incredibly strongly during. bush v. >> gore. >> but it. >> didn't occur to. >> anybody on either. >> side that once the supreme court. >> decided they were going to comply with the supreme court's decision. so what i'm watching what i hope. your viewers are watching, what i hope responsible officials, whatever their political party in. >> congress, are. >> watching what i. >> hope members of the business. >> community are watching is to make sure that that fundamental tenet of our. system that. courts get to. >> offer definitive interpretations of law. >> is not going to be called into question. and this is important rhetoric and grounds

for concern. >> about that. yeah. and this is specific, by the way, to us former treasury secretaries, because you point out in the op ed that if people mess with congressionally authorized payments, it actually could amount to a form of default, which then risks the country's credibility, which then risks the country's creditworthiness and trustworthiness. so if you voted for donald trump because you were concerned about inflation and high interest rates and all that kind of stuff, you don't want to be messing with the country's the reliance on on these payment systems. >> the integrity. >> of american finance. >> depends upon the integrity. >> of american. >> law. and the integrity of. american law depends upon what our. government does. and if we default on obligations. >> that the country. >> has made to make certain payments to people who. >> delivered services, or people. >> who are entitled. >> to legislated benefits, that calls into question the rule of

law. >> and without the rule of law and the ability of enforcement in courts, not. >> only does it make. >> it. >> harder to sell. >> our debt with higher interest rates. >> it also makes any. >> asset in the united states. >> that depends upon the ability. >> to get money by. >> renting an. >> apartment out. >> or by. renting an office. building out, or by selling services. >> if we don't have the. rule of law. >> that's all less secure. >> and that makes. assets less valuable. >> yeah. >> the one of the great things that has happened in the united states is that huge strength of our. >> financial markets that is dependent. on rule of law. >> and so i very. much hope that that's going to be secured. and to be fair, as the secretary of the treasury has said, it will. >> be. >> and we're just going to have to hope that he carries through on that and that he is permitted

by those in the white house to carry through on that. and that we can look back at all these efforts were just. efforts to modernize computer. >> systems, which is a good thing. >> but right now, we all have to be watching very, very carefully. >> larry summers, good to have you on the show. thank you. larry summers is the former united states secretary of the treasury in the bill clinton administration. all right, still ahead, president trump and elon musk claim to be on a mission to rid the government of waste, fraud and abuse, as we just discussed. discussed. and yet, trump has fired at least 19 inspectors general so far, whose job is to rid the government of waste, fraud and abuse. i'll speak to one of those inspectors general who was fired by trump and is now fighting back. plus, today's meeting of the velshi banned book club. we're featuring a dark psychological thriller that is a true cultural phenomenon. gone girl by gillian flynn. don't miss this flynn. don't miss this conversation. i never thought i would develop shingles. i was wrong.

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>> let's turn now to the middle east, where three hostages are now back with their families in israel after being freed by hamas earlier this morning. the three men are currently recovering at hospitals and receiving medical treatment. israel also released 369 palestinian prisoners. that's the largest number released during the first phase of the current ceasefire deal. this is now the sixth hostage prisoner swap to take place since the cease fire took effect on january 19th. joining me now from hostage square in tel aviv is nbc news international correspondent hala gorani. good evening to you in tel aviv. hala, as i mentioned, this is the sixth hostage prisoner exchange in phase one of the current cease fire agreement. every week, almost there has been some threat that it isn't going to happen. some. some wrinkle. this week was no different. >> right, ali? in fact, we're. >> back on. >> a rooftop. >> overlooking tel aviv. we spent part. >> of the day. >> at. >> hostages square, where there

was a big jumbo screen. with images of those hostages. >> whose pictures you showed in the intro. they're released. >> paraded onto a stage by hamas. the three are. and you showed their pictures there. an israeli american, shaggy de haan, 36 years old. he's the one on the far left. there in the center, there. is sasha trufanov, 29 years old, a. >> russian israeli, and. >> yair horn, who is 46. >> there on the right. >> the farthest. >> to the right. >> there of. >> that series of. >> pictures. >> an argentinean. israeli citizen. >> as i mentioned, it was. >> very carefully stage. >> managed by. hamas and khan yunis in. >> the southern. >> part of the. gaza strip. the big question, of course, now is. going to be whether. >> or. >> not what sometimes feels more. >> like. >> a shaky. >> truce. >> rather than any kind of permanent ceasefire, is going to hold. just a few days. >> ago, hamas. >> said that israel wasn't

holding up its end of the bargain. >> that it was not sending. >> in prefab. >> houses, tents and. >> equipment to clear some of the rubble. and so. therefore it appeared as though. >> perhaps it would make good on a threat not to release. >> these three men. >> and israel said. >> soon after. >> that it would. >> resume fighting. if that indeed happened. on the palestinian side, it's a bit bad. >> the battle of. >> of the. >> optics alley, because we saw this. >> stage managed show by hamas. >> but then on the israeli side. >> the. >> prisoners they released. >> they had. >> them wearing. sweatshirts and. >> shirts with a star of david. >> and written both in hebrew and in arabic. we will not forget. we will. >> not forgive. >> and soon. >> after we saw these. >> palestinians remove these shirts. >> and set fire to them in big bonfires in the west bank and in gaza as well. so yeah, we are all waiting. >> to. see what happens over the next. >> week. >> whether or not this. >> truce will. >> hold and the next batch, the

next contingent of hostages is. >> released as. >> planned next saturday. >> ali. >> thank you as always. hala gorani for us in tel aviv. all right. still ahead, president trump fired 18 inspectors general in the first week of his second term. now, eight of them are fighting back after the break. i'll speak with michael missal, former inspector general of the department of veterans affairs, about the lawsuit that he and his colleagues have filed against the trump administration, and why he says their firings were both their firings were both unjustified and against the law. i'm thinking of updating my kitchen... —yeah? —yes! ...this year, we are finally updating our kitchen... ...doing subway tile in an ivory, or eggshell... —cream?... —maybe bone?... don't get me started on quartz. a big big island... you ever heard of a waterfall counter?... for everyone who talks about doing that thing, and, over there. but never does that thing... a sweet little breakfast nook. chase has financial guidance. let's see how you can start saving to make this happen. —really? —really? really. at home or in-person. you could also check out a chase money skills workshop. that's guidance from chase. make more of what's yours.

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commonly called, serve as nonpartizan independent watchdogs. and i'm using those two words separately nonpartisan and independent watchdogs. and they are charged with, believe it or not, weeding out waste, fraud and abuse within the government. as well as protecting whistleblowers. the modern day role of the ig was officially established in the post-watergate era, with the inspectors general act of 1978 establishing 12 ig roles, overseeing various departments in the federal government. today there are 70 inspector general positions. some inspectors general are nominated by the president and must be confirmed by the senate. others are appointed by the agencies they will oversee. this is not the first time that donald trump has fired ig. in 2020, trump dismissed five inspectors general, most notably former intelligence community ig michael atkinson, the man who brought to congress alexander vindman. whistleblower complaint about trump withholding of aid to ukraine. that complaint eventually led to donald trump's first impeachment. so igs played

an important role in 2022 after trump's first inspector general firing spree, congress tightened the statutory restrictions on firing the watchdogs, requiring the executive branch to give congress at least 30 days notice before firing an ag and ig, and must give reasons to justify the firing. in the mass firings last month, trump did not abide by either of those requirements. the trump administration notified the ig that they were being fired with a two sentence email. they were from the department of state, treasury, defense, commerce, labor, veterans affairs, and more. they were all let go effective immediately, citing only changing priorities as the reason for their dismissal. despite the firing, the ig from the department of agriculture went to work the next day. but shortly after arriving, she was escorted out of her office by security. fast forward to this week after paul martin, the ig of usaid, which is the agency responsible for providing humanitarian aid and development assistance to other nations. martin filed a report on the impact of the trump administration's recent cuts to

usaid, which found that $500 million in food aid that was meant for struggling countries was stuck in ports, ships and warehouses and would likely spoil that would be waste. inspector general martin was fired the very next day. trump has defended the firings as, quote, a very standard thing to do, end quote. and while presidents do have the power to remove inspectors general and sometimes do this kind of mass ousting of government watchdogs ordered by trump is not standard. following the firings, congressional democrats sent a letter to the president, writing in part, quote, your actions violate the law, attack our democracy, and undermine the safety of the american people. firing inspectors general without due cause is antithetical to good government, undermines the proper stewardship of taxpayer dollars, and degrades the federal government's ability to function effectively and efficiently. inspectors general who filed that lawsuit against the trump administration hit a snag last night. in a brief hearing, a biden appointed federal judge denied their request to be reinstated to their posts immediately. however, the case

will be allowed to proceed. joining me now is one of those eight inspectors general who filed the lawsuit against the trump administration. michael missal served as inspector general at the department of veteran affairs from 2016 until late last month, when he was ousted by the white house. michael, thank you for being with us. thanks for having me. this is a remarkable story because it seems that a priority, if you take it at face value of this trump administration through doge and elon musk, is to find waste, fraud and abuse and save taxpayer money. correct? that's kind of your mission. that was what you were. you've been in the government since 2016 to do. >> that's our mission. it's not only. >> to. >> find waste. >> fraud and abuse, but. >> to make government more. effective and efficient. >> so while we save a lot of. >> money last year, all the ig's. combined saved the. >> federal government. >> about $100 billion. we also. >> make the. >> programs that much more effective. >> and efficient. i was the ig. >> at va. what i care. >> about is making. va better for veterans. >> and their. >> families. >> and we. >> are very successful.

>> in doing so. >> talk to me about the nonpartisan and independent part of your job, because i don't really understand that some of you are appointed by the president, some are appointed by your departments, but in fact your watchdog. so how does that work? so it's. >> in the statute in 1978, when congress passed. >> this law. >> they. >> thought it. >> would be most effective to have. >> igs who are. >> nonpartisan, meaning we serve throughout democratic. >> and republican. >> administrations, as well as. >> independent independents. mean i. >> don't report to the secretary. >> i don't report. >> to congress. >> i don't report. >> to the. >> president, who i consider i. >> report to our veterans. >> and taxpayers. >> how how do how does one manage the ig? i mean, what is what does success look like for an ig and what are the examples of it not being successful? >> so to me, the successes, are. we improving the services for the agency and for. >> the constituents. >> that are served by that agency? obviously. >> we all have our. >> statistics which tell a.

>> part of the story. >> so for me. >> in my almost nine years as the inspector general, we issued about. 2500 reports. >> 10,000 recommendations. >> for improvement. >> and i had a. monetary impact of about $45 billion. but to me, it's more than that. >> are we improving the quality? let me. >> give you a. >> good example here. so veteran. >> suicide is a. national tragedy. about 17 or 18 veterans every day die by suicide. va has a lot of programs. >> to assist. >> suicide prevention. >> to try to. >> work, to. do it. one of them is the veterans crisis line. >> as the name. >> implies. it's for. veterans in crisis. >> to call to. get help. >> they get about 800,000 contacts a year. so i got an email on monday morning. this was one of the worst monday mornings i had. >> in the job. >> where a veteran said to me, my buddy called the vcl. the veterans crisis line all weekend didn't get the help he needed. he shot himself and it was just

tragic. so we immediately looked. into it. was this a one off where it was just one bad incident out of 800,000, or was there something more systemic? what we found is it was more systemic. what happened. was va was so anxious to. >> make sure. >> they were answering. >> the calls. >> that they put people on the phones who did not have the proper training or the background to do so. they essentially pushed the clinical. >> people aside. >> so our recommendation. >> is you. >> need to have the clinical. >> people, you need to have the. proper training. >> and since that time, the vcl. >> has been. >> so much more successful. and i think it's saved lives. >> so it's not all always dollars and cents. it's not all just, hey, cut these people, we don't know what they're for. because right now what's going on with doge seems to be sort of doesn't seem to be an organized view. i would like to pay lower taxes. i'm sure everybody watching the show would like to pay lower taxes. we'd like to think that the government is running as efficiently as it can. but what you're describing to me means that this is an ongoing process. there's some things you may need to spend

more money on to be more efficient, and some things that are probably wasteful. absolutely. >> so saving money is a big part of what. >> we do. we try. >> to prevent waste and abuse. but the fraud part and improving government services is so key to our mission. >> you know. >> i had a very dedicated, experienced staff, many of who worked at va before. they knew the. >> policies and procedures, and it's really tough work that we do. >> so all the work we. >> do, it's not just taking a quick look and saying, here's how we do it. we go into detail to look at root cause. >> the. >> only way to help. >> va improve is. >> if we can explain to them why something went. >> wrong. >> and that's how they can then come up. >> with a solution. >> so you've worked. through three different administrations. i would have thought that you, as an ig, might have heard this idea that we're going to concentrate on waste, fraud and abuse and say, i'm sure they're going to ask for a meeting. they're going to come and talk to us like, why wouldn't the ig be the first stop for doge to say, you know, department of veteran affairs? really? well, you could probably give us a good head start on what's really

efficient, what's less efficient, where there's fraud, where there's abuse, where there's waste. >> i think we're all expecting that. i did meet with the trump transition team before the inauguration. it was a very positive professional meeting. there was no indication they were unhappy with the work we were doing. >> and. >> you know, our role is to help the va improve. and if one of their priorities. >> is to. >> look even harder into fraud, waste and abuse. that's what igs do. >> what do you say to americans who back this effort to find more waste, fraud and abuse? because. because elon musk throws a lot of big numbers out there and says we can save this much. now the numbers have changed. they were very, very big then. they were less big. now they're getting to what you already know that these are tough things. governance costs money and often works in the background. your departments do things that we don't know exist. this this veterans crisis line didn't know it existed, but i'm really glad it does. that's the point, right? when government works, we don't all know. correct. >> and if you. just start cutting without understanding

the consequences of what you're doing, then that's where government can actually hurt, not help. and particularly with what we do for our veterans. >> veterans deserve the. >> very best services and benefits. va is the largest health care provider in the. united states. they give out about $180 billion of benefits. you start cutting people who are involved in those efforts. then you may be hurting veterans. >> all right so what's the what's the case that you've got right now. the merits of the case are that you were fired incorrectly. correct. >> we got a two sentence email on friday night, january 24th, under the law. and this is something congress felt very strongly about. the president does have the right. >> to remove. >> igs, but if the president wants to remove igs, he's got to do at least two things. one is give the congress 30 days notice. this is so congress can decide whether or not they want to talk to the president about it. and secondly. give a detailed case specific reason why they're firing again. so

congress has more information and the public has more information. if we didn't do our job, we should be replaced. and so neither of those were done in this situation. it's a clear violation. >> of the law. >> and that's why we brought the lawsuit. >> why do you think you, as nonpartizan, independent people have not been included in this process? why why is it easier just to get rid of you all? >> obviously we would love to know the reason. the reason was given. you know, one thing you could say is maybe they don't want the independent watchdogs, maybe they want lapdogs instead of watchdogs. you know, we do the job. we bring hard hitting. reports when necessary. we're able to take on senior leaders at different agencies if they've done something wrong. >> and so. >> maybe that's not something that they want. >> is it your view because va is one of the bigger departments. i mean it's got it's got a big budget. it's got a lot of responsibility. is it your view that if there were a determination that we needed to spend less, fewer taxpayer dollars, is that an ig role? is

that a discussion the ig would have with the secretary, or is that a congressional? how do you figure out how to spend fewer dollars in a department if that's the goal? >> so we. would look to see is there something where va can do something more efficient and therefore spend less dollars? last year, va went back to congress and said, we don't have enough money. we need 3 billion more for benefits. we need 12 billion more for health care. congress said, we don't understand this. you've briefed us. we don't think you need the money. they asked us and actually put in the appropriations. law for us to do a review. so that's a good example where congress is relying on us to say, tell us if this is real or if. this is just a mistake. michael, thank. >> you for joining us and letting us understand a bit more. i think we're all getting a advanced education in what government does, particularly those parts that we didn't really understand. so thank you, michael missiles, the former inspector general of the united states department of veteran affairs. you're watching. we'll

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the hearing life 30 day risk free challenge. >> the first 100 days. it's a critical time for our country and rachel maddow is on five nights a week. >> now is the time. so we're going to do it. settle in. >> the rachel maddow show weeknights at nine on msnbc. >> we're going to start with breaking news on capitol hill. >> mounting questions over the. future of tiktok. >> in the us. >> reporting from philadelphia. >> el paso. >> in the palisades. >> virginia, from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. >> when nick dunn wakes up on his fifth wedding anniversary, his wife amy is already downstairs. she's making crepes and humming the theme to the 1970s tv show mash. every year, amy organizes an elaborate game of puzzles and riddles for nick to solve on their anniversary. quote. my wife loves games, mostly mind games, but also actual games of amusement. and

for our anniversary, she always set up an elaborate treasure hunt, with each clue leading to the hiding place of the next clue. until i reach the end and my present. the problem with amy's treasure hunts i never figured out the clues. end quote. an outsider might think this is a beautiful tradition. part of a lovely day. things for amy and nick, though, are not what they seem. in fact, nothing in this book is what it seems. later that day, amy is gone, disappeared. their unloved rental house in western missouri in shambles with obvious signs of a struggle, and nick is starting to look extremely guilty. and so begins gillian flynn's cultural phenomenon critical success. beloved longtime bestseller box office hit hit and today's banned book club feature gone girl. the trouble with trying to explain the premise of gone girl is that it ends up sounding like a classic whodunit a wholly original, pioneering a

distinct subgenre all its own. gone girl is intensely detailed, from forensics to salient backstories to psychological analysis. flynn has created two characters who are complex, flawed, and frighteningly understandable, as well as a narrative that is genuinely surprising and unpredictable. masterfully, though, flynn withholds the most critical details until just the right moment, as nick pleads with the reader to understand why he obscured information from the police. and as amy introduces us to the iconic cool girl persona, you might think you got the story figured out, but you don't. nick and amy are superlative, unreliable narrators, gone girl. alternating between nick and amy's perspective is defined by duality. nick and amy are both victims and aggressors, right and wrong, understandable and unfathomable. the novel explores the deception and the reality of marriage, of identity, of womanhood, of masculinity, of redemption, and of retaliation.

it is in the frank and dark examination of those unsavory aspects of adulthood where gone girl shines the brightest. for once, i don't feel like i was staring into the sun. i'm rising to my wife's level of madness. because i can feel her changing me again. i was a callow boy and then a man. good and bad. now at least i'm the hero. i am the one to root for in the never ending war story of our marriage. it's a story i can live with. hell, at this point, i can't imagine my story without amy. she is my forever antagonist. end quote. gone girl. despite the accolades, the literary merit, and the genuine pleasure that it is to read has been removed from schools and libraries in numerous states across america, including florida and tennessee. i read two passages from nick's perspective, but the book ends with amy, our true central figure, so i'll read one from her as well. quote i don't have anything else to add. i just wanted to make sure i had the last word. i think i've earned that. end quote. right after a

quick break, i'll be joined by gillian flynn, author of the acclaimed novel gone girl. don't acclaimed novel gone girl. don't go anywhere. here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need, and the flavor you love. so, here's to now... now available: boost max! oh. >> sleep like replacing. >> replacing your windshield doesn't have to be. go to safelite. com and we can come to you. >> sick. >> our highly trained techs can replace your windshield where you are, even if that's right in your driveway. >> have a good day. i love you. >> safelite makes it easy. go to safelite. com and schedule a replacement today. >> safelite repair. safelite replace. woo! >> i feel like new sunglasses.

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all, or at least not yet. just try to remember we are not looking at the final score. we are still in the first quarter. keep your pads on. the game has just begun. >> all right. today's meeting of the banned book club is officially underway. i'm joined now by one of the most lauded and influential writers of our time. gillian flynn. she's the author of three novels, including today's banned book club feature, the bestseller gone girl. gillian, welcome to banned book club. thank you for being with us. >> thank you for having me. >> let's talk about amy. she is incredibly smart. she's self-aware, she's calculated. she's vindictive. there are literally hundreds of articles, blog posts, social media posts addressing amy's character and psyche. so talk to me about whether we're supposed to root for amy or whether that that matters to you. >> you know what mattered to me when i started to write? it was i wanted you to be rooting for whoever narrative you're in. at

that point, i wanted it to be nick dunne and amy dunne, and they were warring authors or writers, and they were each telling their own story of the marriage. and so they're both charismatic. people are used to being listened to. and so when you're with nick, you are should be on kind of on nick's side, or at least seeing his point of view. and then when you're with amy, you're kind of going, well, you know, she has an interesting point too. and of course, midpoint, you see that you're dealing with two very different humans than you thought that you were dealing with. >> and sometimes in a story, in a novel, they will give you will emerge into understanding that one of the narratives is more reliable than the other. but you keep the reader on edge about that, too. you can like one more. you can. you can see that they're making a point. but but they both proved to be unreliable. >> yeah, i mean, i, i personally one of my very favorite sensations when i'm in a book is that unreliability, that bit of being unsettled, that kind of,

you know, i'm not i'm not terrified. but something is awry here. and that's really what i was going for with this book is, you know, it's not an outright, you know, it's hard to define it exactly. you know, it's not quite a thriller, but it is this kind of unease about it, you know, and that sense of, you know, i don't know these people and i don't know who to trust in this. and i just have to keep floating along on this narrative in order to see what's going to happen. and, you know, as you know, by the end, you may be on different teams and different sides, and you begin with or, or you may throw it across the room like some people do. >> one of the most famous passages in gone girl is amy's defining cool girl monologue. let me read a little bit from it. that night at the brooklyn party, i was playing the girl who was in style. the girl, a man like nick wants the cool girl. men always say that as the defining compliment, don't they? she's a cool girl. cool girls are above all, hot. hot and understanding. cool girls never get angry. they only smile a chagrin loving manner and let their men do whatever they want.

men actually think this girl exists. maybe they're fooled because so many willing, so many women are willing to pretend to be this girl and quote, tell me more about this. >> you know, it was so interesting because i wrote that as a writing exercise trying to figure out who amy was. and at that time it was really early first draft, and she was a magazine writer who kind of was writing about women's issues. and so i thought, oh, you know, i was in this writer's block and i thought, i'm just going to write an essay that amy would write. and so i kind of wrote that whole thing or spiel. i mean, just in kind of this almost trance just wrote it out. and my rule is to never put anything in a book that i use that i originally started as a writing exercise, so i would take it out of the book, and then i was like, oh, i really liked it. i put it back in, take it out. but i feel like it was really important to say, because i just think women do that much more than men historically do, that women try to figure out

what the man wants, and then they mold themselves and into all sorts of whatever shapes they're not supposed to be into in order to satisfy that person. and, you know, as the monologue goes on, she's kind of like, you know, cool, cool girl doesn't have to be the football loving, hot dog loving, you know, party girl if it's, you know, the dude who loves records, she knows all about suddenly about like, obscure vinyl and you know it, but it it touches on that whole idea of women recreating themselves and the image of what a man wants. and it's such a dangerous thing. and that's what kind of amy was talking about, is that she felt like she had betrayed herself, because ultimately, that's where the an anger can come from, is you start out in a relationship thinking you're both buying into the same partnership, and then, you know, you're each putting on these different faces. and that's a lot about what gone girl is about. >> it's narrated by amy and nick, but there are other characters in the book. amy's parents found great success as

children's book authors, fictionalizing amy's life for better and for worse. let me read from the book. no one wanted amy amazing amy to grow up, least of all me. leave her in knee socks and her hair ribbons and let me grow up unencumbered by my literary alter ego, my paper bound better half the me i was supposed to be. this is an idea of amy's life being profiteered upon. kind of interesting. tell me a little bit more about that. >> i love the idea of we're always in competition, right? with our childhood, with who we thought we were going to be when we grew up and where we ended up being. and so there's always this image of that that you're you're always kind of arguing with the dream you had, even if, you know, you didn't, you know, you grew up and didn't really want to be a baseball player. you didn't really want to be a rock star, but you still have this image. and so i like the idea of amy having grown up with this alter ego, that she was kind of in competition against this, you know, amy, who was you know, if amy didn't get into a

certain school like the fictional amy did, or if, you know, amy didn't want to keep playing cello. well, the fictional amy, you know, played cello, you know, in the concert halls and the idea of the parent, a fictionalized character against their own daughter, i thought, really led to the part of the torment that is part of being. amy is like, you can never be perfect enough, because we can never actually be what we thought we should be as a child. >> like being a child star on tv. >> yeah. yes, yes. >> living up to somebody else's expectations of who you actually are. one of the main themes in gone girl is appearance versus reality, and you explore that again and again, from nick to amy and even with some of the minor characters. why? >> i like i mean, i love the idea of who's in charge of a narrative, and i think that that is what we deal with every day of our lives, and particularly more and more in this age of spin, is this idea of, you know, that you can talk your way out of anything into and back out

of, and that truth isn't actually important at all. it's all about who gives the best spin, who's in control of the narrative, who gets to tell the story. and, you know, i wrote gone girl is ten years ago now. and, you know, that was in the age i didn't i was lucky i didn't have to include twitter or, you know, social messaging and, and the book. and because it just wasn't a huge thing at the time, it was very freeing. but now it's even more so that idea of, you know, everyone's in control of a different narrative. and within the span of, you know, 24 hours, a story can completely change depending on who's telling it and who's who's chiming in. and so i feel like what i was kind of getting at then is become even tripled or quadrupled. now, that idea of like, no, i want to be in charge of my story, but you are not, you know, you are dozens and hundreds and thousands of people who are in charge now. >> thank you for being the newest member of the banned book club. gillian flynn is the

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needs. we got you. connect with the provider at ro. >> hey. >> thanks for watching this saturday morning. i'll be back here tomorrow morning from 10 a.m. to noon eastern. if you're like me, by the way, you don't know. you know, i can use this qr code barcode thing all the time. that's a qr code. you can scan it and it'll take you right to my blue sky page. or you can find me at blue sky social. but i have learned that the, the qr code is actually a barcode in two dimensions. it was invented in 1994, apparently, i think by the japanese or somebody. somebody emailed me about this. i'll get it right eventually anyway. but that's a qr code. you can also follow me on threads on linkedin and on mastodon where i post daily. stay right where you are. katie phang starts right now. >> this is the katie phang show live from telemundo studios in miami, florida. trump the job