fork you. we're not doing it. here's some spoons instead. over this weekend. we're expecting additional protests this coming monday, president's day, a whole bunch of different groups are planning a national day of protests on monday. we expect that the main protest will be at the us capitol in washington, dc at upper senate park. but we're also expecting, once again, satellite protests at state capitals and city halls and town halls all across the country, expecting a pretty major day of protests on monday. this monday, president's day in dc and around the country, people are mad about what trump and his administration are doing. they are being loud about it. all right, that's going to do it for me for now. i will see you again here monday night and all next week at 9 p.m. eastern. >> we begin this hour with a nation in crisis. president

trump and an unelected reactionary billionaire are working overtime to dismantle key parts of our government, and they're waging war against progress and any shred of accountability for themselves or their allies. so what is one of the key leaders of the opposition party saying during these unprecedented times? oh, that's a good question. how is he planning to lead or to inspire the resistance against what is starting to look like authoritarianism? >> i'm trying to figure out what leverage. we actually have. what leverage do we have? republicans have. repeatedly lectured america. they control the house, the. senate and the presidency. it's their government. what leverage do we have? >> what a message. not from house minority leader hakeem jeffries. the idea that democrats would concede defeat less than a month into trump's presidency is not just disheartening. it's also alarming. republicans currently have just a three vote edge over

democrats in the house. that's one of the smallest majorities in us history. let's go back to 2010, when republicans were the ones in the minority. remember, they weaponized backlash against the affordable care act and embraced the tea party movement, ultimately leading the party to pick up 63 seats in the house in the midterms. it was so bad that then president obama famously said democrats took a shellacking. four years later, senate republicans successfully campaigned against obama, allowing the gop to take full control of congress. and let's not forget what the democratic party accomplished in 2018 after trump's first presidential victory, house democrats campaigned on the backlash to trump's first term and his efforts to repeal the affordable care act. they won back the house with the highest voter turnout we've seen in the midterm elections since 1914. now, jeffries comments that democrats have no leverage aren't just absurd. they also show democrats are still out of touch with what voters want

because, according to a new cbs news yougov poll, 65% 65% of democratic voters want the party to oppose trump as much as possible. that's compared to 35% who want to work with him. the second figure is down from last month, when 54% of democratic voters said they wanted the party to find common ground with trump. and yet, axios reports house democrats are, quote, at liberal grassroots organizations like move on and indivisible that are trying to stir up more confrontational opposition to trump. one democrat said the house minority leader is very frustrated at the group's reporting that jeffries himself has dismissed. isn't the democratic party supposed to be right now, in the midst of a reckoning, not trying to figure out what happened after the election results, trying to listen not to what voters actually want. and aren't democrats the ones who campaigned on this idea of

defeating trump in the name of saving democracy? that was the message. if they want to have any shot at getting back into power, they need to listen to their base, to the floor, to the field. they're asking for a fight, not a surrender. let's bring in my panel. joining me now is elisa martinez rosas, executive director for the nonprofit group united we dream. hayes brown, writer and editor for msnbc daily. and chuck rocha, founder of solidarity strategies and a democratic strategist. grace, i'm going to start with you, because you wrote this week on a bet for the new york times, and the op-ed is titled, why democrats fail the immigration test. every time you write about how democrats need to fight back against the right's anti-immigration push, saying, and i'm quoting you, democrats don't need to overcomplicate this. they just need to throw a punch. so what is your reaction now when you see a jeffries making statements

like this? or for example, when you see some democrats that voted with republicans in favor of the lincoln riley act now, which of course targets immigrants. what's your reaction to that? >> everyday people have a reason to be concerned. every day it feels like something is on fire, that our families are less safe. while the richest man in the world holds a press conference in the oval office, enacting a plan that is robbing us of our future and our money. so the american people were demanding leadership of each other, of our of our elected officials, of our, of our media. and democrats have an opportunity in this moment to expose the con and flip the frame. this is not a about a. >> border crisis. >> this is this is a labor crisis. a real villains. and the real villains are not immigrants. they are the politicians and the corporations who profit from our instability. so when moveon members,

indivisible members united we dream members were making calls to our members of congress. we're asking for partners. in the last couple of weeks, thousands of young high school kids and college kids have gone to the streets demanding a different america. thousands of millions of americans have been calling their members of congress to take action in this moment. and so people have a right to be angry and scared. and we also have a right to ask for more from our elected officials. >> his, as grayson mentioned, if some of these groups like indivisible and move on, actually just want partners. that's what she said. what is your take on this sort of complaining, allegedly, that some congressional democrats are feeling right now? >> i mean, i think that they need to realize that the people who are calling their offices are on their side. they're saying we are also democrats. we want you to do more. i get the sort of defensiveness of being like, hey, we're doing the best we can. the institutions are what they are. we don't have a majority. so we are sort of locked out of pushing the gears

of power forward. but i think that democrats are not used to being a true opposition party. they're not used to being the ones who stand astride progress and say, no, they're not used to being the ones who say, actually, no, we're not going to try to negotiate with you because there is no common ground to be found with you. and i get why the instinct is to go back to that. well, to say, okay, we got to pull off someone, like with a three vote majority, the republicans cannot stand to lose very many people on any given vote in the house. jeffries, i think, needs to exploit that more. he needs to lean in to the fact that, hey, if you guys lose three votes, whether that's moderates or because we are poking conservatives to tell them, like, hey, go further on this one really weird thing that you guys are obsessed with to tank the whole bill lead on that. if you are saying that if you believe that democrats out in the field, the democrats, the base wants to fight, give them

that fight, give them that red meat to keep them encouraged enough to get to the midterms. because i think that's what a lot of congressional democrats are waiting for is, oh, midterms are going to come and we'll be fine then. not if you yield ground now that you'll have to make up later. >> i think, chuck, one of one of the things that everyone can agree on, and i know you've talked extensively about this, is the fact that many democrats have acknowledged that they have and had during the election a messaging problem. but i want you to take a listen at how jeffries addressed the issue during a recent podcast interview with jon stewart. take a listen. >> i think there's a few things. >> going on here in terms. >> of how we better communicate with. >> the american people. >> maya angelou said it best. >> people won't. >> remember what you say. they may not even. >> remember what. >> you do, but. >> they will always remember. >> how you. >> make them feel. and i think what. >> we have. >> to do a better job of is making the american people feel that we understand the pain that

they've been in economically. >> chuck, your your response to that? >> well, i think it's good to route this in some facts where folks around washington, d.c. are walking around like they think donald trump won 70 or 80% of the election. there was a problem with our messaging, but we first got to root this and making sure everybody understands that donald trump did not get 70 or 80% of the electorate. he got less than a majority of all the votes cast. he got 49.9%. that means a majority of americans voted for somebody else, 48.7% of those voted for the vice president. harris. and guess the reason why we lost? the reason why we lost is over 10 million, up to 19 million democrats stayed home. to your point about the messaging, it wasn't because folks were running to donald trump and yes, about 1.5 million more republicans voted than four years ago, while almost 19 million less democrats did. that means you had a problem motivating your base to show up, to vote for you, to give them

something to vote for, which is your message, but also in your earlier part, talking about the fight, showing them what they're fighting against. to win an election, you have to show who is fighting to hurt you and then what. your plan is to make their lives better. democrats can fight with every fiber of their being while laying out a vision that centered around work and the honor of work and families to make a pathway forward. i've been doing this my whole life. we've been doing this with lots of my friends who are on this panel, and there's a way to do this. we have to get out of each other's way. democrat. >> okay, so we talked about jeffries. and but compare what jeffries has said to what congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez has said. take a take a listen. >> we should. >> be very clear. >> with the american people that the house is governed by a republican majority. the senate is governed by a republican majority, and the white house has a republican president. and if they want to pass their

agenda, republicans need to conjure up the votes for them to pass their own bills. >> so essentially here aoc is saying the complete opposite, essentially arguing actually hold up. now, democrats have plenty of leverage. >> yeah, they have more power than any one of us on this on this panel. we elected them exactly for that job. and so the real victory of this moment isn't just about surviving another fight or surviving another floor vote or floor speeches. it's about changing the conditions so that we never have to fight like this again. and that requires a fight. it requires a vision, and it requires to follow the energy that we're seeing all across the country. people are ready to call, call the bs out. they're ready to be able to put people into account. and i think we should we should follow the energy. >> he's led. some talk about new york city, right. because new york offers suddenly this vital test where you have a mayor that is openly siding with trump,

that is openly defying new york city sanctuary laws. after, of course, the doj is ordering prosecutors to drop his his criminal case in a scenario like the one that we're in right now, how should democrats respond, given that the governor has the authority to fire merrick adams? and so i guess when you take a step back, like, what is the right response if you're a democrat right now? >> i think the right response, if you're a democrat, is honestly the most cutthroat political one you can do. you look at eric adams poll numbers in new york city. you look at the fact that he's talking to republicans, according to new york times, about the idea of potentially running either as a republican or as both a republican and democrat in the fall. he's looking for a way to get around the fact that democrats in new york city might not vote for him in the upcoming primary. i think you cut him loose. i think that there is little to gain from keeping eric adams on board right now. when you have people who would come, who came out to support him in

terms of fighting crime, or because people are like upset about how immigration has been run in new york city. but i feel like a lot of those people will also look at how he is capitulating to the donald trump regime and getting out of his own legal troubles by throwing other people under the bus. that's not something a leader does. and i don't know what hochul stands to gain from backing him. there's no love lost, usually between the governor and mayor of new york city anyway, no matter who it is. so for hochul to sit there and take body blows for eric adams, absolutely not, does not make sense to me. >> and i'm also thinking now about senate minority leader chuck schumer, you know, and kind of these mixed messaging and these mixed signals that he's giving in terms of his approach to trump, because schumer recently told mary kay of the new york times, he said, they want us to beat trump and stop this stuff, and that's what we're doing. but this is the same schumer, chuck, who also

told semafor last week that he's telling democrats to wait, saying, and i'm quoting him, trump will screw up. so which is it, chuck? what's what's sort of the approach that he's going for? >> i think you see that in what the house democrats are doing. there's a reason why they're reminding everybody that republicans are in power. and that's not always a bad thing, because what we have seen with elon musk, what we've seen with the republican leadership, is they're fixing to break a lot of things that are very important to democracy and very important to american people, like social security checks, seeing if you can get into a va, and we need to make sure that they can't turn and blame democrats because they're in charge of all of this. you can do that while also fighting your tail off every day to show a contrast between what they're going to do for your lives and what we're going to do for your lives. because a lot of voters were sold a lot of bs to my sister grace and what she just said. and now we can say, look, we understand you feel

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diseases. a break for about. eight years. >> so that was republican senator susan collins collins expressing her trademark concern during robert f kennedy jr's confirmation hearing. but guess what? she has since voted to confirm rfk jr. as head of the department of health and human services. and tulsi gabbard as the director of national intelligence. despite reservations about both nominations. other so-called moderate republicans, senators lisa murkowski and bill cassidy similarly shared their own concerns and ultimately voted for both trump pits. ironically, the sole republican to vote against both controversial picks and secretary of defense pete hegseth, senator mitch mcconnell, arguably the person most responsible for allowing trump to get back into the oval office. it's a pretty sad state of affairs when mcconnell, of all people, could be viewed as some sort of resistance hero on the right. my panel is back with

me to discuss. so, hayes, and how many times do we have to hear susan collins is concerned before then siding with trump? >> a few more, it sounds like. how long is it? is that like it's kind of her go to move? >> she keeps winning though, so maybe like it works. >> i mean it for now because i mean, one of the best arguments that i've seen posted online is not the argument necessarily that, you know, susan collins doesn't know what she's doing, but that she is lying to people. but maybe make the point that she's getting tricked pretty easily at this point. like, how gullible is the senator or how cynical? it's one of the two at this point that she looks around and says, i can voice concern and but vote for them anyway, as long as i keep putting out there that i don't agree with all of this, i don't know that she can keep the heat off of her, but she is one of the votes that got over the line that got these nominees over the line. they don't have the filibuster for nominees anymore, but they still need 5051 if the vice president

isn't around to break a tie. so they need her vote to get him these people across the line. and yet, here she is. >> and. >> chuck, did you ever think we would be in this state now where suddenly mitch mcconnell is seen as some type of symbol? none of the resistance. you laugh. but the question for you is, i mean, how much credit does mcconnell deserve, if any, for voting against these nominations? >> mcconnell is all out of give a damn. mcconnell, who has been fighting with trump for a number of years. look, he is no resistance hero. let me first say that for all my lefty friends out there, he is not. but what he is he is untouchable. and what i mean by that, y'all, is think about the politics of all of these senators. mitch mcconnell is probably 100% not going to run for reelection. something crazy would happen. he hasn't said that. miss collins in maine is in a 50 over 50 state and is up for reelection in 2026. there's already an independent guess where they work at? they work at spacex decided to run against

her. you have the north carolina senator who is up in 26. this is all about politics. and donald trump having right now $500 million in his pac that he could spend to defeat anybody who stood against him. that's why some of these folks are trying to play both ways, especially if they are in a 5050 state like maine, north carolina, alaska or some of these other places. >> it's no coincidence at all that after all of these senators voted against hegseth, you suddenly saw, like, these multiple right wing media figures like tucker carlson and charlie kirk and meghan mccain suddenly threatening to back gop primary opponents against them if they continue to vote against trump's nomination. now, suddenly, now, like everyone's on on board. what do you make of that? >> you know, my mom used to say the. tell me who your friends are, and i'll tell you who you are. and this, they can't back out of this. they own this. they own rfk, they own any crisis that comes to our community.

they own january 6th pardons. and so, no, you can't pretend to feign concern at this moment when our country is literally in crisis and this is their legacy, and this is what we're going to make sure that they are held accountable to. >> okay. but then you have some like internal fighting between a republicans, not specifically pete hegseth. it now seems to be in trouble after he essentially alluded to this idea that nato membership for ukraine is suddenly off the table. and then you have, like republican senator roger wicker, who essentially said about hegseth that he made a rookie mistake. and then he added, i don't know who wrote this speech. it is the kind of thing tucker carlson could have written. and carlson is a fool. but the thing is, again, wicker voted to confirm. >> and he knew exactly who texas was, at least to the extent that they wanted to know who pete

hegseth was, considering the fact that republicans just wanted to push this nomination through as quickly as possible, like all the nominations. so you'd have to sit and think too hard about who was there voting for. they knew like wicker. other defense hawks knew who pete hegseth is, that he can talk the talk, but can't back up running the pentagon, that he will just do whatever trump tells him to do because he knows who gave him this job. and so wicker, i think, doesn't even have the same excuse as some of the other senators. like he knew this will be bad for something i care about, but i care. i care about the politics. to get back to chuck's point. and mitch mcconnell, like for all the reason that he all the reasons he voted potentially to vote against these nominees, the reason why he was able to actually go through with it is not just because he's not running for reelection, but because he can count to 50. and he knew if i'm not going to be the one to take this vote, i can take this and not hurt the party overall. so he looked around and said, you know what? i may as well do it because it's not

going to bring down this nominee. i'm not going to be the one to topple the nominee myself. when there were people who voted with him on set, that was great. doing this by himself, he was more than happy to take that hit. >> i'm thinking of potential backlash to all of this, right? like in 2018, for example. obviously there was a lot of democratic momentum. strategists said that it was because some republicans were sort of tying themselves too much to trump. and so i'm wondering, like on the ground, will this proximity to trump, this, like, loyalty to trump have any type of repercussions? what do you think? >> you know, there's no level of feigned outrage that will convince the american people that politicians like susan collins care about doing what's right for our constitution. they had many opportunities to stand up to donald trump. by the time that we get to the elections. i hope i'm wrong, but i can see millions of americans continuing to suffer. and they did nothing, and they stood in the way. and so i believe that in this

democracy, and i believe that voters will stand up against it. >> that remains to be seen. but you are all sticking with me because after the break, the irony of elon musk gutting government agencies while making government agencies while making billions off government (people shouting guesses) with plaque psoriasis even the thought of an itchy situation can throw you off your game. (scratching sound) (scratching sound) (dog whimpers) otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. (people shouting guesses) otezla can help you get clearer skin, and reduce itching and flaking. (people shouting guesses) doctors have been prescribing otezla for over a decade. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. get medical help right away if you have trouble breathing or swallowing, swelling of the face, lips, tongue, throat or arms. severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting; depression, suicidal thoughts or weight loss can happen. tell your doctor if any of these occur, and if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts. (people shouting guesses)

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thousands of workers, thanks to musk and trump, and other federal employees are now warning that veterans mental health care and electrical services in rural parts of the country are also under threat. but while musk and trump cause pain and confusion under the guise of cutting waste and fraud and abuse, there's another billion dollar question worth asking. who is looking into the waste, the fraud or abuse that the government spends on elon musk's companies? over the last decade, spacex and tesla were awarded at least $18 billion in federal contracts, with spacex winning more than $17 billion worth of contracts since 2015. his business empire was largely built on the strength of these contracts. so while he cuts millions in essential services for americans, he still gets to keep taking in billions for his own companies. and while standing in the oval office and posting online all day about how he's the one rooting out government corruption. the irony, you know. my panel is

back with me. sam, i'm going to start with you. so here is musk now who is cutting jobs of federal workers who deliver important government services like we just outlined. but he's also meddling in all these government agencies that are actually supposed to be regulating his companies, some of which currently have open investigations into his business practices. so it's hypocritical. and how do you make sense of that and how do they get away with that? >> not only is it hypocritical, it's not normal. i think just the image of musk and trump in the oval office, the way that he that he's overseeing dodge, i think that all of us does the image sends chills down my spine, and i think all of us must pay attention. this is a man who has been given an all access pass to into our government, and is currently mining and mining it and stealing from us. and so this trump must trust musk alliance

needs to be confronted. that's why we need leadership in this moment. that's why we're calling on people to not turn away, to join united. we dream to join any group that they have in the ground. because this is this is literally taking money away from our kids in school books. this is taking money away from cancer research. it's taking money away from fire prevention and putting all of our rights at risk so that we can put more money in the in the pockets of elon musk. he's about to be the richest man in the world. and this is not normal. this is not okay. and we have something to do about it. >> hayes, during this oval office visit that obviously everyone is talking about, musk was challenged on the $50 million gaza condom lie that ayman actually debunked on this show recently. take a look at what musk said. >> how can we make sure that all the statements that you said were correct so we can trust what you're saying? >> well, first. >> of all. >> some of the things that i say will be incorrect and should be corrected. >> what? sorry. you call me. i

said what? because. because that's your response. like, i mean, is that the strategy? like literally that was a very genuine reaction that i just had. like, what is he saying is, is the strategy to flood the zone with these sort of like false narratives, wild narratives, so that we don't pay attention, you know, to the shadows and the sort of corruption that is taking place in front of us. >> i mean, yes and no. on the one hand, there are some storylines that are very easily proven false or that tell a certain narrative that are being amplified with no fact checking, like, does elon know some of these things are lies? yeah, he probably knows. some of them are lies, but some of them are just cause he doesn't know how things work. like the fact that you have musk and other dodge employees rooting around in government systems that they can't possibly understand, where we have evidence, where we've seen already, where they look at data that they have and are just unable to read it. and so they come to the wrong conclusions because they're not experts. the

dunning-kruger effect is real, and elon musk embodies it just because he is good at maybe one thing, he seems to think he's good at all things and doesn't realize that he's not. and so you have him rooting around within these systems, empowering other people to run the system. and i my question is, who within the trump administration knows exactly what he is getting into and how that's working? i think you can probably count on maybe one hand exactly who, and i don't think trump is one of them. who is it? i think russell vogt, the head of the omb, is one of the people who actually understands the systems that are at play and what can be leveraged and what would be bad if broken. but i think that sending elon out to break things right now, it may eventually clash with the sort of work within the bounds of the system approach that vogt has. so i think that's where a power struggle may come in the future. but for right now, the what's happening right now. vogt and the others who understand how musk is working are more than happy to let him be a wrecking ball, right?

>> chuck, i am more than happy to allow him to be a wrecking ball until something serious happens, right? because musk having this much power doesn't just raise the question of corruption. it also raises this question of just competence. nbc news actually reported today that after mistakenly firing the people who oversee the country's nuclear stockpile, the trump administration is now frantically trying to hire them back. but they're having trouble even like reaching them now. so they're essentially cutting jobs off people when they don't even know what they do. >> you know, i did focus groups all over the country in states, and there was lots of people, lots of people who didn't like their options for democrats, who didn't even really like donald trump. but they reckoned back to the time when things were more inexpensive, the economy was moving, and they were like, look, we don't like him. we're going to vote for him. we want things to be cheaper. i want to make more money in the stock market. i'd like to get some more, maybe some more of them. good tax breaks that he gives

rich people like me. what they didn't want is this kind of chaos. and let me give you three more quick numbers for everybody here about what's going on with elon musk and others. elon musk spent $288 million to elect donald trump. he was just one of many donors, but he spent the most. remember when he bought twitter? well, before that, donald trump had sued twitter because they had blocked him. well guess what? this week. twitter. now it's not. elon musk paid donald trump $10 million. and finally, as reported in forbes this week, yes, i read forbes. when i'm not reading hunting and fishing magazines, they said $400 million the government was going to spend buying cybertrucks. so all of this stuff is not what those folks in the focus groups voted for donald trump for. when all these republicans come on tv and like, he's got a mandate, he won the election. this is what the american people wanted. i can promise you it's not. >> well, on that point, yes, people voted for tax breaks. they did not vote for elon musk. but i'm curious as to what you are seeing on the ground now.

how how are people reacting to musk's role right now? like is it does he just come up in conversations and like media spaces or like, are people actually thinking about him and concerned with what he's doing? >> i mean, i think every day people are having these conversations at the kitchen table. they understand that what's happening right now is not normal. they are afraid about what's going to happen to their jobs, to their families, jobs. and a lot of them are just wanting to like, figure out who's doing something about this. and that's why i think that we're seeing thousands of people. there was in my home state of texas, there was a day without an immigrant. there's been calls for boycotts of target and walmart and other places because people are understand that this moment is unlike any other in our american history, that this one person that is unelected, no one voted for, for elon musk, is making decisions that is already causing havoc in the lives of millions. trucks instead of textbooks, trucks instead of

hospitals. that's not the type of america that any of us need or want. and the reality is that the pain of what his vision is, is already being felt by everyday americans, especially undocumented people under whose back this strategy is being being pushed forward. >> his tax season is coming up our favorite time of the year. and i mentioned this because it seems like elon musk is now going after the irs, and who knows how many people will will be fired as as a result of that. so if he suddenly sort of messes with people's tax refunds, i think that could cause a pretty big problem. >> that could cause a pretty big problem. so one of the most ridiculous things about the administration was the biden administration pushed so hard to get more funding to the irs, to hire more people, to be able to actually run audits, to get money from rich people who have been withholding on their taxes to make them pay their fair share. republicans have been up in arms about cutting that mone, and have been trying to rescind it back, and have been getting

that money back if you not only. but that money was used to hire people to get up to the levels of irish workers that worked under the clinton administration. so if you take that number of people that they actually hired, reduce that by the amount of funding reduced and then cut that further. what you're going to see is a government that is struggling to get more revenues. and while trump is saying like, oh, don't worry, my tariffs will make up for it, those costs then get passed on to consumers. so if you have an irs that is unable to tax the rich easily, is messing up people's tax returns and having trouble getting payments out the door in tax season, and people are paying more because of tariffs. that is a bad situation politically for the republicans and a bad situation for everyday americans. >> no one wants to be in that situation. and martin rosas, thank you so much for joining me. i really appreciate it. but hayes and chuck, you're sticking hayes and chuck, you're sticking around because our worst of my life is full of questions... how do i clean an aioli stain? use tide. do i need to pretreat guacamole? not with tide. why do we even buy napkins?

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>> okay, it's time now for our worst of the week. and tonight's this honor goes to donald trump for taking over the kennedy center and appointing himself chairman. that's right. the president of the united states took time out of his incredibly busy schedule to clean house at a cultural center known for musical theater, operas and dance performances. after grooming power, trump got rid of all the center's board members and even pulled from his inner circle for backup. enter ric grenell, trump's envoy for special missions, who had once hoped to become trump's secretary of state. but instead trump appointed him interim executive director of the kennedy center, a position that has actually never existed. but in trump's own words, the former u.s. ambassador to germany will now be responsible for, you guessed it, cracking down on drag shows there. because of

course, there's a drag show connection to absolutely all of this. but the takeover also speaks to another obsession of trump and his allies. they long to be part of mainstream culture, while culture, which is, of course, heavily influenced by black and brown artists, increasingly moves further and further away from them. hence that right wing meltdown after rapper kendrick lamar's layered and political super bowl performance, which received overwhelming praise from fans and cultural critics. the question is if the maga world actually understood what was happening. there's an irony here, though, right? donald trump thinks if he can control art and popular culture. but history tells us that his authoritarian move will only inspire a whole new generation of artists to push back against him. my panel is back with me now. okay, so trump was recently asked him why he wanted this job. no, why why why do you want this job? and here's what he had to say. >> why do you want to.

>> be. >> chairman of the kennedy. >> center board? >> because i want to make sure it runs properly. we don't need woke at the kennedy center. we don't need some of the shows. we're terrible. they're a disgrace that they were even put on. >> have you seen any. >> shows there? >> how do you know i didn't go? >> no. i got reports that were. >> so bad i didn't want to. >> the. what's funny about this is that he doesn't know what he's talking about. because even during the first trump administration, he didn't attend any single one of the kennedy center's honors performances. and then in 2017, you have some of the honorees that actually were threatening to boycott in attending these performances if trump was president. so how do you how do you make sense of all of this? like, is he just trying to do this to in to seek revenge towards some of these like cultural individuals. like how do you see it? >> i think that this is the sort of thing that honestly, if trump was not actually president, this is one of the things he would want to do the most. i think

that being the senator, like president of the kennedy center, having that place of like, high honor and prestige within the cultural world appeals to trump. i think that he thinks of himself as a cultured person, as a really i mean, as a nouveau riche. his favorite musical is evita, like by andrew lloyd webber. he loves the big the drama. the kennedy center itself is a big dramatic space. he sees himself as an entertainer. he wants people to think he is the smartest, funniest person. and what better place to do that than through saying, like, i control the state. it's something that i think does have darker connotations in terms of the sort of authoritarian control over what people see, what art can be. but like you were saying, that just inspires people to push back and make new, different art. in criticism to the ruling regime. and it's hard for the right to understand and really get satire because they are the people in power. so he it's just all built together

into a space where trump, as someone who has been laughed at and hates it, wants to control the cultural environment, to be in a place of position of honor, basically. >> chuck, you are usually a cultural icon. you're not wearing your hat, and i don't know why, but i'm okay. so, so far you've seen people like shonda rhimes and resign from from the board at the kennedy center. you have a folks from hollywood like issa rae, also canceling her performance because she thought that what was happening is dangerous. so who from hollywood do you expect to see at the kennedy center beyond kid rock? >> lee greenwood, a monster truck rally, and maybe hulk hogan? >> okay. >> you know, let me stop for a second and say hayes could not be more right. reach across there and shake his hand because he hit it on the nail. donald trump would rather be the chairman of the kennedy center than president of united states,

which is a pain in his backside. but the kennedy center thing think about where where trump grew up, new york city, broadway, the show lights, the show won the apprentice wrestlemania. all the things he lives for that thing, and he so wants to be with the cool kids. and he has been left out of that for so long. he finds b and c stars. we can make fun of all that and make light of it, but at the end of the day, it's not cool because i live in washington dc. i take my beautiful wife, the kennedy center, all the time. we ain't never saw no woke production, but i got to see hamilton there one time. it was the best night of my life. >> the thing is, his actually there's too much to talk about, so we'll leave it. we'll leave it for another conversation. i, for one, can't wait to see what they come up with. maybe a drag show. chuck rocha and hayes brown, thank you so much for joining me. next. an update on the latest exchange of hostages the latest exchange of hostages and prisoners between [coughing] copd isn't pretty. from the struggle to breathe...

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>> we're following some breaking news today from overseas. three more israeli hostages, including an american citizen, were released by hamas as part of the ongoing cease fire agreement with israel. more than 300 palestinian prisoners were also released by israel, several of whom were serving multiple life sentences. now, this all comes as the ceasefire deal was close to breaking down this week after hamas accused israel of violating the terms of the deal. nbc news international correspondent hala gorani has the latest from tel aviv. >> we saw once again a very stage managed production by hamas inside of gaza, with three israeli hostages released in khan yunis in the southern part of the besieged enclave. the three men are sasha trufanov, a 29 year old who's a russian israeli citizen, also an american israeli citizen. the 36 year old hen. and there was also

yair horn, a 46 year old who was released as well. there were made to hold these certificates. these completion certificates by hamas. horn, by the way, was held by the palestinian islamic jihad. all men were released back into israel, were taken to hospital and reunited with family. now, in exchange, and this is still phase one of the deal between the two sides, israel released the largest number of palestinian prisoners to date, 36, who were serving life sentences, 333 were released back into gaza. they were arrested inside of the enclave after october 7th. now there was some optics on on the palestinian side, but also on the israeli side, where they made the men that they released, where these shirts with a star of david, as well as an

inscription reading never forget, never forgive, both in hebrew and in arabic. and we saw scenes later on inside of gaza where these men took off the shirts, these sweatshirts, and set fire to them. the big question, of course, is going to be will we see a continuation of the this weekly release by hamas and islamic jihad, of israeli, of israeli hostages? and will we continue to see this truce hold? just a few days ago, hamas said that israel was not holding up its end of the bargain and threatened not to release the three men who were let go today. so it's very much a wait and see situation. >> nbc's hala gorani, thank you so much for that report, and thank you for making time for us at home. i'm paola ramos in for ayman mohyeldin. have a great night.

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>> tonight. trump's justice department under fire. seven career prosecutors resigned in protest and in principle, as the doj moves