here next. saturday at 8 a.m. eastern. be sure to follow us on social media at the weekend. msnbc. velshi continues our coverage now. good morning. >> good morning, and nice to see you all. having a conversation with the former canadian deputy prime minister, as you mentioned, chrystia freeland, whom you probably have all known and met over the years because she was a journalist based here in the us. there's some real

energy in canada right now about this. people are starting to who didn't even know the difference between a canadian product and an american product, are now choosing to buy the canadian products, to start to send some pressure to say, you want to play this game, we can play it too. it's not somewhere most canadians want to be, but it's an interesting moment that they and mexicans alike, allies of the united states, are being forced into a discussion they don't want to be in. >> you mean canadians don't want to be the 51st state? >> it's so crazy. >> oh my god. >> imagine that. >> who knew? >> imagine that. so we're gonna have a good conversation about it. good to see you all. you have yourselves a great rest of the day. and she starts now. good morning. it is sunday, february the 16th. i'm ali velshi. president trump is again stating his vow to impose reciprocal tariffs on america's trading partners, possibly sparking a broader economic confrontation with our allies. trump says the united states, the world's largest economy, is

being, quote, unfairly taken advantage of by both friend and foe, end quote. in a lengthy post on his truth social platform on saturday, trump defended his newly announced executive order proposing the reciprocal tariffs, writing in part, quote, america has helped many countries throughout the years at great financial cost. it is now time that these countries remember this and treat us fairly. a level playing field for american workers, end quote. trump has instructed his top advisers to come up with new tariff levels for america's trading partners across the globe. these new levels will target trading practices that the trump administration deems unfair, including other countries tariffs, taxes, subsidies and exchange rates. treasury secretary scott says there is an april 1st deadline to devise america's new tariffs. commerce secretary nominee howard lutnick says they could be ready to implement these tariffs the very next day. trump has stated that the auto tariffs, which he says could also be implemented on april

2nd, could be especially harsh on canada. he claims he claims that canada has, quote, stolen the us auto industry. and trump is threatening tariffs of, quote, 50 or 100% because we don't want their cars. we want to make the cars in detroit. end quote. what trump is missing is that american cars contain foreign made parts, with a significant amount of those parts coming from canada and mexico. it's part of a deeply integrated and interconnected automobile automotive supply chain that's been negotiated and implemented over decades, with parts being shipped back and forth across our continental border several times before a completed car rolls off the assembly line. and it's not just cars. many products like electronics, home goods, processed food, scores more cross back and forth between all three north american countries as they're processed from raw materials to parts to the point of sale with canada. our modern trade agreements go back to the 1965 auto pact, which eliminated most tariffs on cars and parts. the auto pact later evolved into

a larger deal, the 1989 canada us free trade agreement, which was then replaced in 1994 by nafta, which included mexico. trump killed nafta in his first term before negotiating the us mexico canada agreement, which is up for renewal in 2026. trump has already announced separate 25% tariffs on all goods coming from canada and mexico, which trump imposed on february 3rd, along with a 10% tariff on chinese imports. trump has cited migrants and fentanyl as justification for these economic penalties. those specific canada and mexico tariffs have been delayed for 30 days, as have canada and mexico's promised countermeasures. more importantly, though, canada and mexico are our biggest trading partners. set to compound the issue is the executive order trump just signed, imposing a 25% tariff on all global steel and aluminum imports. you may recall donald trump did something like this during his first term in 2018, imposing 25%

tariffs on foreign steel and 10% on foreign aluminum, although notably, there were scores of carve outs back then for countries and for u.s. companies alike. the white house says that's not happening this time. and like last time, these new tariffs will mainly affect us allies, especially our neighbors to the north and south. almost 40% of our total imported steel comes from canada and mexico. canada is the first one on the left. mexico is the third one. as you can see, most of the steel in the united states comes from canada, brazil, mexico, and south korea. the overwhelming majority of american aluminum imports come from canada as well. there are costs to starting a trade war with one of your oldest friends, your strongest allies, and your greatest trading partners. the american people will soon feel those consequences. joining me now is the honorable chrystia freeland. she's a member of the canadian parliament. she's a candidate for the prime minister of canada. she served multiple positions in the canadian government, including having

been the deputy prime minister and the minister of finance. she also served as the minister of foreign affairs, where she led canada's team during successful renegotiation of nafta, and also as canada's minister of international trade, where she oversaw canada's successful negotiation of free trade with the european union, and not to mention an old friend of mine. but she's done all these things in between, so she's the perfect person to have this conversation with. chrystia, it is great to see you. thank, thank you for being with us. there are few people. you lived here in the united states and worked as a journalist, a financial journalist, as i did here in the united states. so you really understand the intricacies of this, these long held relationships, particularly between canada and the united states. what is the most important thing americans need to think about as we enter a potential trade war with canada? >> good morning, ali. great to be with you. the most important thing. for americans to understand is this is. an act of huge self-mutilation. doing this

will hurt america really badly. and that. >> is because. >> the economic. >> relationship you have with canada right now is balanced and mutually beneficial. if you take out energy, which i think you need and which i don't think you want to tax, america actually has a trade surplus with canada. and putting a tax on the energy you get from canada seems like a really bad idea, a bad idea for american consumers, a bad idea for people buying groceries or filling their car up with gas. a bad idea for american industries. and if you think about aluminum, for instance, and the threatened 25% tariff on aluminum and canada is your primary aluminum supplier. aluminum is basically electricity in physical form. putting a 25% tariff on canadian aluminum means a 25% tariff on

electricity. and the united states right now is hungry for energy. you need more of it, particularly as you are focused on china as your global competitor. and the i race with china, i is very energy hungry. and now you're talking about putting a tax on electricity. so my first message for americans is this is just a really bad idea for you. it just doesn't make sense. you're going to hurt yourselves. >> this these trade agreements with canada and mexico have been largely seamless for obviously, for government officials like you, you've had to go in and negotiate, and there are complaints and things like that. but generally speaking, most americans don't. and for some, to some degree, most canadians don't feel it. they just feel that they get access to things they otherwise didn't have access to. so let's go back to oil and electricity. two things by far. oil is the biggest import that we get from canada. but the electricity to give us a description about how this works, why is it that america

relies so heavily on canada for oil and electricity? >> well, i'll give you one example, ali. if you didn't have canadian electricity, the lights in your building right now might not be shining. and trump tower, you know, that famous escalator, it might not be operating because you get electricity from canada for new york. a lot of your oil comes from canada. so when people are filling their tanks up with gas, they should say, thank you, canadian friends, for providing this. and truly, at a time when consumers don't want to pay higher prices, at a time when the united states needs more energy rather than less, it is just self-defeating and self-mutilating to be talking about putting a tax on the energy you get from us. and, you know, there we have a very clear piece of evidence that

that is the case. when president trump threatened very clearly to impose 25% across the board tariffs on canada and a 10% tariff on canadian oil and gas, that was on a saturday. and on the monday the stock market fell. that was a very clear market reaction, saying, dear united states, you're about to hurt yourself. >> and this is interesting because the stock market, every time these things lurch forward, the stock market does fall. donald trump pays more attention to that than any other economic measure out there. why is that? donald trump's got supporters in the stock market. he's got supporters on wall street. many of his economic team, people you deal with on the other side, understand that generally speaking, tariffs can be an important tool when used properly. generally speaking, when used as a scalpel, when used as a sledgehammer across the board, they generally result in inflation over over the medium term. that's a problem canadians are going to have. but

it's a problem americans literally voted for donald trump to solve. >> you are exactly right, ali. and i think, you know, the relationship with canada is unique. and that's why when tariffs are proposed on canada, you get such a negative stock market reaction. because the reality is the trade is balanced and mutually beneficial. i mean, ali, in your intro, you talked about the trade deal that governs our relationship. and here is the paradox. right now we have a trade deal, usmca. we call it kusma, which was negotiated by donald trump. it was negotiated by donald trump. it got support from nancy pelosi when she was speaker. president trump has called this the best trade deal in the world. so it's pretty absurd to be trying to violate that. and i think the other reason we're seeing such an adverse market reaction is

canadians are really united right now. i would say canadians are resolute. there is a wave of patriotism here in canada, the likes of which i have not experienced in my lifetime. and canadians are really united around the conviction that if you do hit us, if these tariffs come into effect, we will hit back and we will impose dollar for dollar retaliation. now, some of your listeners, ali, may be thinking, well, you know, so what? we're so much bigger than canada. why would that matter? but the reality is canada, uniquely in the world, is in a position to have economic leverage in this relationship. the fact is, we are america's largest export market by far. canada by itself, buys more from the united states than china, japan, the uk and france combined. so you could have

those four countries retaliating against you. they wouldn't have as much leverage as canada on its own. and, you know, i think americans are the ones who invented the term. the customer is always right. well, we are your biggest customer. so watch out. if you hit us, we will hit back. and our retaliation, unlike these across the board tariffs is going to be surgically targeted. we're going to design it. so we do the minimum harm to ourselves and have the maximum impact in the united states. and we are going to target constituencies that have particular influence in the white house. so one of the things i am proposing is a 100% tariff on teslas, and i am inviting all the countries in the world that would be affected by these tariffs to join us. i think that would get us some attention in the oval office. >> i want to talk about more about these surgical tariffs in the response that you're going to have after a quick break.

chrystia freeland, former canadian deputy prime minister, former minister of finance and many other things are going to stay with us. we'll be right back. more velshi after the back. more velshi after the break. i'm getting vaccinated... ...with pfizer's pneumococcal pneumonia vaccine. so am i. because i'm at risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. i'm getting prevnar 20 because pneumococcal pneumonia could put me in the hospital and my risk is 6 times greater because i'm over 50. the cdc just expanded its recommendation for those 50 or older to get vaccinated. you're also at risk if you're 19 or older with certain chronic conditions. prevnar 20 is proven to help protect against both pneumococcal pneumonia and invasive pneumococcal disease in just one dose. don't get prevnar 20 if you have a severe allergy to its ingredients. a weakened immune system may lower your response. common side effects include injection site pain and swelling... ...fatigue, headache, muscle and joint pain. millions have chosen prevnar vaccines, which have helped protect adults for over a decade and have an established safety profile.

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prime minister and candidate for prime minister of canada. i want to you know, donald trump often says tariffs are the best word in the english language. they're neither good nor bad word. they're they're an instrument that can be used effectively. but when they're not used effectively, what you do is you force industries and countries to find other channels to sell their goods. in other words, the stuff that canada sells to the united states, valuable stuff, electricity, oil resources. you know, let's just discuss how this could unfold. and i want to read from something that you wrote in the new york times earlier this week. these new import taxes are a turning point for canada and the world, because they suggest the united states is making an historic change in its understanding of

who its friends are, and indeed, of whether it is interested in having any friends at all. if america, which controls approximately 25% of the global economy, pursues a punishing trade war with canada and its other allies, all of us will have no choice but to seek other friends wherever we can find them. no choice but to seek other friends wherever we can find them. how does that how does that manifest in a in a trade discussion? >> well, look, ellie, i said at the beginning that there is this wave of patriotism in canada that we are resolute, we are determined. we have zero interest in becoming the 51st state. we love our country and we are going to fight for our country. but i would also say there's a feeling right now of being insulted and maybe even a feeling of anger and sadness, because we're your neighbor, we are your best and closest ally.

you know, the 20th century is often referred to as the american century, because it was a time of the rise of america to become a superpower, even a hyper power. how much of that was made possible because you had canada all along your vast northern border? you've never had to worry for a minute about that. you have an ally, secure, prosperous, friendly, and we don't expect you to think about us a lot, but we sure don't expect you to try to beat us up. and so i do think americans need to think very carefully about how they are treating their nato ally, their norad ally, a country with whom they have a recently renegotiated free trade deal. and, you know, i would say there is an exit ramp. we love having a win win relationship with the united states, and that is what we historically have had. but when we keep on getting

insulted, when we keep on hearing from the president that he wants to use economic coercion to force us to be the 51st state, i mean, think about that for a minute. our sovereignty is being directly challenged, and that could have really long term consequences, both economic but also in terms of where canada seeks friends and builds alliances around the world. >> you used to be a journalist like i am. so you spent some time fact checking. i want to i want to do a little fact checking on what donald trump said about canada having stolen the us auto industry. it's too complex to get into the history of the us canadian auto trade, but it's a it's a it's actually the, the it's an example of a remarkable success. it's had setbacks. it's had it's got enemies and it's got supporters. but it's really complicated to suggest that canada stole the us auto industry is really it's a lie.

>> it absolutely ali. and actually the history is the opposite. you know, our trading relationship began with cars and it began with the car packed. and the basis of that was the us and detroit wanted access to the canadian market. this was a deal that the united states wanted. so you could sell us your cars. and we agreed because we're neighbors, because it makes sense. we did a deal to say, let's make cars together. that's what we do right now. a part in a car made in north america crosses the canada us border. while that car is being made 6 or 7 times just in the production of the car. now imagine there's a 25% tariff on it, and that is why you are seeing the us car companies, their share price, really suffer every time a tariff is suggested. it just doesn't make sense and it doesn't make sense

for us. but crucially, it doesn't make sense for you. if the us goes ahead with this, you will see real damage being done to workers in america's industrial heartland. that is why the steelworkers the us w when the first tariff threat was made against canada, came out and said, mr. president, this is a really bad idea, don't do it and i'll tell you who else will be hit. american farmers, american farmers. the american farm bureau also came out and said tariffs on canada are a bad idea, something people maybe don't widely appreciate. we provide your fertilizer more than 80% of the potash american farmers use, and that is essential to growing food to feed. america comes from canada. so you want to put a 25% tax on your farmers. it just doesn't make sense. >> chrystia freeland, good to

see you, my friend. thank you for being with us. chrystia freeland is a candidate for prime minister of canada. she's a former deputy prime minister, and she's a former minister of finance. all right, still to come, the trump administration used its return to the world stage to signal to our european allies that the us is not coming to the rescue. coming up next, why nato, the world's oldest and strongest military alliance, might be in trouble. >> everyone needs a vacation eventually. >> and when i need. >> a hotel, trivago compares hotel prices from hundreds of sites so you can save up to 40%. >> smart. >> simple. >> simple. >> two of. if you're living with diabetes, i'll tell you the same thing i tell my patients. getting on dexcom g7 is one of the easiest ways to take better control of your diabetes and help protect yourself from the long-term health problems it can cause. this small wearable... replaces fingersticks, lowers a1c, and it's covered by medicare. not managing your diabetes really affects...

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week, conveying the primary message that the trump administration has for its global allies. america first. donald trump believes that the u.s. is overextending itself with nato and may be pulling back. and if america, which is nato's most influential member member, somehow reduces its participation, the strongest and most effective military alliance in global history could be imperiled. so i want to give you some context. first, the nato, the north atlantic treaty organization, nato was founded in 1949. it only had 12 member states. you can see these states in blue. it had the us and canada, and it had the western european countries. they formed this military alliance to secure peace after world war two, and to establish greater protection against the threat of expansion and annexation by what was then the soviet union. nato is a collective security agreement. nato has no army itself. each member state has pledged to protect one another from armed conflict. so a member state's contribution to nato, something you'll hear a lot from the

president, is essentially its own national defense spending. now, since nato's founding, many more countries have joined nato, particularly after the collapse of the soviet union by 2022, which is what you're looking at here. there were 30 member states now since russia's full scale invasion of ukraine in february of 2022, three years ago, two additional countries have joined finland and sweden prior to the invasion, both finland and sweden long maintained military neutrality, but they changed their position after the war in ukraine began. because they started to see the whole reason nato was formed that russia was going to be expansionist. sweden, by the way, only has a maritime border with russia, but finland's border with russia is 832 miles long. all of this, it doubled nato's border with russia overnight, which was a huge strategic setback for vladimir putin, who called nato expansion toward russia and encroachment. and he actually used that as one of several excuses for invading ukraine. all the way back in

2008, putin said that any attempt to expand nato to its borders would be viewed as, quote, a direct threat. in the months leading up to the full scale invasion of ukraine three years ago, putin claimed ukraine was set to join nato, which it was not. but we'll get back to that. despite the fact that nato's mutual defense has only been activated one time after americans were attacked on nine over 11 american presidents american presidents have long had this standing complaint about our fellow nato members that they don't spend enough on defense in their own countries, and hence they're not strong enough for a mutual defense treaty. george w bush said it at a nato summit in 2008 that he wanted a european member states. he wanted the european member states to increase their defense spending. barack obama had similar concerns. so in 2014, nato set a new guideline for member states requiring that each member state increases its defense spending to 2% of their gdp. at a minimum, the goal was to help ensure nato's military

readiness at all times. however, it took at least eight years to get most members to comply. according to a nato report, in 2022, only seven member states were meeting the 2% pledge. but based on 2024 data that we have, 23 of the 32 member states are now meeting that threshold. about a third are still not meeting it. now, the fact that nato members made that pledge to increase their contributions in 2014 is no coincidence, because that was in response to russia's illegal annexation of the ukrainian region of crimea. the map this map is what ukraine looked like before russia got involved. nearly three years into the full fledged war, control of ukraine today now looks like this crimea is still controlled by ukraine. and all of this red area, which used to be ukraine, is now controlled by russia. last week, the defense secretary, pete hegseth, said a return to the original 2014 borders was, quote, unrealistic since the war began and even

before that, many felt ukraine joining nato would guarantee its safety from russian aggression. although for ukraine, joining nato is no easy task, it is a hugely complicated process, one for which the ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky has advocated in the past. but on wednesday, defense secretary pete hegseth said the united states would not accept ukraine's admission to nato, although he walked that back since then, saying, quote, everything is on the table, end quote. but if the trump administration's primary concern is money and saving money. president zelenskyy made the case on meet the press just this morning that letting ukraine join nato would be a cheaper option to defend the country. >> let me ask. >> you, president trump. >> said he does not think ukrainian membership in nato is, quote, practical. in your view, is nato membership something that should be determined as a part of this deal? >> well, i want to be very clear with nato, for us and for everybody, it's the cheapest

security guarantees, the cheapest for us, the cheapest for your the cheapest for the united states and the cheapest, really, for russia. if we are not in nato, it means that we will build nato in ukraine. >> joining me now is ivo daalder. he was the united states ambassador to nato from 2009 to 2013. he's also the ceo of the chicago council on foreign affairs. he's the host of the podcast world review with ivo daalder. ivo, good to see you. thank you for being with us. i want to start with that last comment by volodymyr zelensky. it's shrewd. he has always been an advocate of ukraine joining nato. and i think the argument he's making is that you all are involved in our war right now. you're sending your stuff, material, expertise and money. if we become part of nato, the entire structure of how we defend ourselves changes. but help me understand what what volodymyr zelensky said to kristen welker there. well, he.

>> said actually the same. >> what you. >> said about the origins of nato. nato was founded in order to prevent war, and it is much cheaper to prevent war, even. >> if. >> you have to prepare for fighting war than actually conducting a war. and what what president zelensky is saying is. >> true. >> that if ukraine. >> were a member of nato, russia would not dare to have attack ukraine or continue the war because it would be at war, not just with ukraine. >> it. >> would be at war directly with all nato countries. and the fundamental purpose of an alliance, and certainly of a defensive alliance like nato, is to prevent war. and it has been incredibly successful in doing so. and but president zelensky rightly is saying is, if. >> i'm going. >> to sign an agreement with vladimir putin, i need. >> to be sure. >> that the war does not restart. and the only. way i can guarantee that is to be a member of nato. so by taking off the table, as both pete hegseth and

president trump have now done, the question of membership of ukraine and nato actually makes the continuation of war more likely and therefore more costly for everyone. >> let's talk about the countries that do spend a lot. poland is one of them. but the countries that border the, you know, former soviet countries that border russia, poland, latvia, lithuania, estonia, they really fear. part of the reason they spend what they spend on defense is because they actually do fear russian expansionism into their countries. the president and the former president of poland have constantly made the point that if russia succeeds in taking ukraine, not a nato country, they will perhaps feel emboldened to move into a nato country. and that's going to cost us all a lot more than ukraine is costing us at the moment. >> yeah, absolutely. >> that is the argument. they they do fear russia, expansionism. they believe that nato is the protector. of not

only of them, but. if nato invests in the kind of capabilities that the poles and, and many other countries bordering, as you rightly point out, russia are doing, there will be. >> there will. >> be an ability to prevent to prevent war. that is why the poles, for example, are pushing all nato countries to do more, and indeed why we in a report that just came out by the belfer center at harvard, have called for europeans to think about spending closer to 3% of gdp, at least in order to overcome the deficit of underinvestment that has taken place over the last 20 years. we need this because russia is not only conducting a war, it has turned its economy into a war economy, and that war economy will continue. even if there. were to be. >> a. >> peace agreement with ukraine to churn out massive amounts of armaments and weapons. and those weapons are by definition a

threat to russia's neighbors. yeah, that's what a strong nato and strong defense capabilities are important. >> just to put some meat on those bones. we're talking about upping. you're talking about upping the commitment to 3%. poland i think exceeds 4%. russia is almost at 7% of its gdp that it spends on on military. but this has been a long standing issue, right? i mean, this is not a brand new donald trump issue. for a long time, america has said, could you all please spend more on your defense? so donald trump phrases it as paying paying your bills. but that's not what it is. it's the idea that every country has got to be strong enough in its own defense infrastructure to be able to contribute to the whole. >> yes, absolutely. >> in fact, every president since harry truman has called on europeans to deploy larger and more capable military forces. and doing so by spending donald trump is not unique. he is just a long line of presidents who wants the europeans to do more, and they should do more. i spent

four years at the nato table making the argument that that more needs to be done, but in the end, countries will only spend if they actually see a threat. they now see a threat. russia is at war with ukraine, and in fact, it's at war with europe. it is conducting cyber operations, it's conducting assassinations, it's cutting data and other cables in the baltic sea. it is surveilling military bases in both the uk and in in germany. it is blowing up ammunition dumps and factories throughout europe. it is at war. and as a result, nato countries have started to increase their defense spending. $450 billion more spending on defense has now occurred in the past three years, since the beginning of the war. then then was planned beforehand. so there is significant capability that

is being deployed by europeans to defend europe. no one is paying the united states to defend europe, nor should it. the united states has a fundamental interest to defend europe because, as we learned in the first world war, in the second world war, we tend to be. when europe goes to war, we tend to be there as well. much better to prevent it. and that's what nato has been trying to do. >> well, good to see you. thank you for joining us this morning. ivo daalder is a former united states ambassador to nato and the ceo of the chicago council on global affairs. still to come, in an ominous truth social post, donald trump is now suggesting that no laws are broken if he is busy, quote, saving his country, trump is effectively sending a message to any judge, any court, that might challenge his actions. legal experts say we are on the brink of a constitutional crisis. so of a constitutional crisis. so what comes next? (man) got one more antoine. (vo) with usps ground advantage, it's like you're with us every step of the way. ♪

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statement that was posted late yesterday on truth social by the president of the united states. quote, he who saves his country does not violate any law. end quote. the timing of this is particularly striking, coming right after several court injunctions and restraining orders against the trump administration, as it openly disregards a range of rules and norms, and its push to purge the federal bureaucracy and consolidate power. in effect, trump is asserting that the law does not apply to him, sending a defiant message to every judge, prosecutor, and plaintiff who is challenging his actions. currently, more than 40 lawsuits are pending against his administration, all stemming from a series of controversial executive orders and actions tied to elon musk's doge. trump's statement is especially alarming because of the message that it sends to his base, including the hundreds of january 6th extremists whom he recently pardoned, that laws can be completely disregarded when they no longer serve his purpose. this brings us to the all important question that more and more americans are asking. what happens when the president

decides he no longer needs to follow the law? what happens when the nation's chief executive, sworn to uphold the constitution, treats the constitution and the courts that uphold it as optional? what happens when, as harvard professor of government steven levitsky points out, the country's vaunted constitutional checks begin to fail. levitsky says that if american democracy were to collapse, it would not result in a classic dictatorship where elections are a sham and opposition figures are imprisoned or killed. trump won't be able to fully dismantle the constitutional order, and will still be somewhat constrained by things like judges and state legislatures and midterm elections. but here's the key. levitsky warns that authoritarian authoritarianism doesn't require the total destruction of the constitutional framework. it only requires the ruling party, in this case, the gop, to abandon its commitment to democratic norms, such as accepting electoral defeat and rejecting political violence. in

a scenario like that, we face what levitsky calls a competitive autocracy, end quote a system that is short of full dictatorship, one in which the constitution alone cannot save us. democracy, a system in which parties compete in elections. but the incumbent's abuse of power tilts the playing field against the opposition. under competitive authoritarianism, the formal architecture of democracy, including multi-party elections, remains intact. but the system is not democratic because incumbents rigged the game by deploying the machinery of government to attack opponents and co-opt critics. competition is real, but unfair. end quote. most autocracies that have emerged since the end of the cold war are in fact competitive autocracies, according to levitsky. importantly, it would not be the first time in this nation's history that constitutional guardrails have failed. as levitsky notes, quote, the same constitutional order that undergirds america's

contemporary liberal democracy permitted nearly a century, a century of authoritarianism in the jim crow south, the mass internment of japanese americans, and mccarthyism. end quote. this brings me to a conclusion that many of us are beginning to recognize as establishment elites, from ceos and members of congress to new york city, mayors capitulate to trump. civil resistance in america will once again play a critical role in resisting tyranny. martin luther king jr described this resistance as a nonpartizan moral force, end quote, one that, when mobilized, ensures the survival of democracy. fortunately, today's growing resistance is well organized, well financed, and electronically viable, electorally viable, according to levitsky, which makes this movement harder to co-opt and to repress and to defeat. the administration's limited public support and inevitable mistakes will create opportunities for democratic forces in congress, in courtrooms and at the ballot box. but the opposition can win

only if it stays in the game. end quote. similarly, the new york times editorial board this week underscored the growing importance of mass resistance to trump, quote, the refusal to obey a supreme court ruling from which from which there is no appeal would be the moment that america's constitutional order completely fails. that is a clear red line separating countries that operate under the rule of law from those that do not. if he crosses it, mr. trump will have created the precise scenario. the nation's founders fought a war and established an entirely new government to avoid. and if that happens, no part of society can remain silent. end quote. after a break, i'm joined by steven levitsky as well as victoria nourse, founder of the center for congress and democracy at for congress and democracy at georgetown law. -what've you got there, larry? -time machine. you gonna go back and see how the pyramids were built or something? nope. ellen and i want to go on vacation, so i'm going to go back to last week

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to reduce litter box odor, but. >> with the litter riser, your litter. >> box never gets a chance to stink. >> hoof litter is the. >> litter box. >> civilizer earning cat fancy's editor's choice award. for innovation. >> a dry. >> and stink free litter box that saves you time and money. it's a no brainer. >> get poop litter riser for just 24.95. >> joining me now is steven levitsky, a professor of government at harvard university, a senior fellow for democracy at the council on foreign relations, and the author of tyranny of the minority why american democracy reached the breaking point. also joining us, victoria nourse, a law professor at georgetown university law center. she's the founder of the school's center on congress and democracy, and she currently serves as the vice chair of the u.s. commission on civil rights. welcome to both of you. thank you for being with us. steven, one of the things you point out, which i think is really, really important, you

know, last year was, i guess, the election iest year in modern history. there were elections all over the world. many of them are what you describe. they're not entirely free and fair. elections. elections occur. opposition people run. they lose. the person in power gets all the votes or gets most of the votes. that's what we need to worry about. less than we need to worry about mussolini's italy or hitler's germany. for sure. the vast. >> majority of countries. >> that have slid. >> into authoritarianism in the 21st century have been what look. >> and. >> you and. >> i call. >> competitive authoritarian regimes. >> regimes in which the. basic architecture of democracy is there, the opposition. >> is legal. there are elections. >> and sometimes they're actually. pretty contested elections. >> in fact, once in a. >> while the opposition even wins those elections. but the abuse of power, the manipulation of the machinery of government by by the incumbents heavily tilts the playing field against.

against the opposition. this is. >> hungry today. >> this is turkey today. this is india today. >> victoria, i was talking to laurence tribe yesterday who said, you know, he's not he's not as worried about the nomenclature, about whether we're in a constitutional crisis or more or not. but he also points out that it's not necessarily a tipping point, like the new york times points out, we we're going along a continuum that could lead us to becoming an undemocratic state. where do you see us and what do you see us doing about it right now? >> well. >> thank you. and thank you to professor levitsky for making these parallels. >> more known. >> to people. they they think of authoritarianism as, you know, some, you know, stormtroopers in the street, but it's not. and i just like to emphasize that we will be there if in fact, they do violate and refuse to abide by court orders. and they're teasing the public right now with that claim to see whether

it resonates. right now he's saying what nixon said. you know, if i do it, it can't be against the law. but i would focus on the actions and the pattern in the actions. what is disturbing to me is the pattern. so it's an authoritarian performance to say i'm going to take over other countries such as, you know, greenland or panama or canada. and it's also an authoritarian. tell it that you choose to do something unlawfully, even though you could do it lawfully. so many of the things that are currently being contested in the courts could be done lawfully by donald trump, if he were simply to go up to congress. he controls the republicans, control both the senate and the house, but he has chosen to do them illegally by a performance. the performance of power, which is doge. they've done a shock and awe campaign. again, another sign of a pattern moving toward authoritarianism. and, you know, now the courts

are an important bulwark. the congress is not dead. they still have the filibuster to stop certain kinds of laws. but, you know, i think the courts are now in the crosshairs, and they need to support the claim of our constitution above party, above president, and to hold to the rule of law and to do it in a very consistent way. >> yeah. >> so this is interesting, this point you bring up victoria and i want to ask you about this, stephen. why? why is this unfolding this way? because donald trump, it is very rare in america that you get the presidency and you control the senate, and you control and you control the house. all of the things that doge is doing, in theory, could be done by law using the instruments of law through a budgetary process and appropriations process. ways, ways and means. process. what is there some thing that's connected to your thesis about why there's doge and why this is happening the way it's happening? >> i'm not sure it's connected to my thesis, but i think it's a

combination of things. first of all, trump is an autocratic figure. he he does not have the patience for the give and take of legislative and judicial politics. this guy's instincts are about as authoritarian as they come. and so his first instinct is to circumvent congress. it's also the case that the republicans have a very narrow majority in in the house. and so, yes, it's true that they could get legislation through the congress, but it would be one hard work. two, it would involve a lot of negotiation and compromise, and three, they wouldn't be able to move as quickly or as thoroughly as if they circumvent the legislature. this is what authoritarians like to, to move quickly. they like to impose rather than negotiate. and trump would have to negotiate with congress, would have to make concessions and get. come 60% of a loaf rather than 100% if he went through

congress. >> victoria, you've studied this, and congress has in the past, presidents in the past have wanted to take more authority than is due to them in the in the constitution, conservative and liberals, republicans and democrats. they've done this for a long time. most times, congress pushes back and says, this is not actually your responsibility. why are we not seeing this? why are we not seeing republicans, republicans in congress say, hey, we might share the same goals. i'd like to make government smaller, too, but that's not how you do it. you do it through us. >> well, i think trump has. what's happened is that the we've seen that the narrowing of the center of the republican party, which is now a truism, but he's also taken it to the level of a personalist party, which is akin to the autocratic playbook. so this is all about him, and you have to be loyal to him. senator whitehouse was over at georgetown talking about how he actually threatens not only primarying people who oppose him, but there's threats against

people's families, as mitt romney said. so he has developed this very tight personalist party depending upon loyalty. so they're not pushing back. now, interestingly enough, i think mitch mcconnell's push back is interesting. there are parts of the republican party. dick cheney who believe in country over party. they understand this, but it's actually and as former senator biden said, he he had a level of physical courage that he admired. so this that violent subtext is really one of the things that's going on behind the scenes to make the republicans in congress operate in lockstep. >> i've heard this from, from from several people that that's a that's a real fear. this isn't just about losing your elections. thanks to both of you. this is a this is a much bigger conversation and we will continue to have it. and i appreciate it. steven levitsky is a professor at harvard university. victoria nourse is a professor at georgetown law. another hour of velshi starts

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