>> download goldfish. >> casino slots. >> for free and get 100 million. >> coin bonus goldfish. >> casino slots. go for the gold. >> good morning. it's sunday, february the 16th, day 28 of the second trump administration. when it became clear that donald trump and the republicans had won control of the white house and both chambers of congress last november, it didn't take long for some gop lawmakers to declare that the voters had

given them a mandate to lead. but in the first month of the republicans unified government, president trump, with the help of the unelected billionaire elon musk, have taken it upon himself to restructure the bureaucracy and consolidate power. he's usurped congress, which is controlled by its own party, the gop, to flout the traditional levers of government. and republicans in congress somehow seem okay with letting them do that. the us government has a system of checks and balances for a reason. it's one of the foundations of this democracy. if the republicans really had a mandate to lead, that's what they should do. or at least that's what they should be trying to do. but they're not. congress has the power to appropriate funds. it has the power to cut budgets, it budgets, it has the power to pass bills and to create, eliminate or restructure federal agencies. our system of government provides a process to make these sorts of changes. if only our lawmakers still had the political will to make that happen. but trump is now doing

it on his own. he's using executive orders and legally dubious action, forcing the courts to get involved in more than 40 lawsuits are currently pending against this administration. now, something potentially more nefarious is happening. president trump, having already bypassed the legislative branch, is trying his luck with the judicial branch. he posted this ominous message on truth social last night saying, quote, he who saves his country does not violate any law. end quote. stuff like this is when it's hard to be a journalist because. am i supposed to tell you that? is that supposed to be useful information that donald trump posted this entirely out of context thing? well, maybe it's not so out of context context context because it's a message perhaps veiled to the courts, to judges, to congress, to plaintiffs, to the american people, that the law does not apply to him. for some time now, the president, whether they are democrats or republicans, have moved to expand the powers of the executive branch. it's a habit that presidents of the united states get into, and sometimes it's met with the

necessary pushback from congress in order to keep the executive branch from becoming too powerful. if republicans had a congressional majority, maybe they'd push back against it. they have a congressional majority. somehow, they have seemingly ceded their authority to an executive which is more than willing to usurp their power. joining me now is the democratic congressman raja krishnamoorthi of illinois. he's a member of the oversight and reform committee and the permanent select committee on intelligence. joining us as well, joe walsh, former republican congressman and 2020 republican presidential candidate. he's the host of social contract with joe walsh and the author of the book f silence. gentlemen, good to see you both. i'm not sure i've ever had you both. you're both good friends of the show. i'm not sure if i've had you both on together. joe, let me just start with this idea. because when you were in congress, you and i agreed on almost nothing. except what we didn't realize we agreed on was democracy and the way that the system of government works. there was a system you and your your fellow rebels in congress did agree that congress and members of congress have certain powers in this

government that executive should not usurp. why are republicans not doing that right now? >> ali, first off, it's. >> great to. >> be. on with. >> raja. >> who's doing a wonderful job. representing much of my. former district from. >> so long ago. >> ali. >> i was tea. >> party for. >> this very reason. >> i feared. >> i feared. a concentration of. >> power like this. >> like we've. >> got now. >> like we've never. >> ever had. being the rest of the tea party. >> we revered. >> the constitution. >> back in. >> those days. ali. >> if. barack obama even. >> so much as. >> looked at a. >> pen to even think. >> about signing. >> an. >> executive order. >> jim jordan. >> and. >> i would. >> scream and raise holy hell. here's the deal, ali. i'm asked every single. >> day. >> because i say we're. >> in a. >> constitutional crisis. you alluded to it. right now we only have. >> two independent. >> branches of government. >> america needs. >> to.

>> understand that. >> the legislative. >> branch of. >> our country has. >> stopped doing its job. >> it has. >> pledged total. >> fealty to the president. >> and not. >> the constitution. >> this is a. >> crisis. >> and they're doing it. >> ali. >> to stay in power because trump. >> controls the party. and congressman krishnamoorthi, this is a this is a really important point because i think for years, maybe decades, people, depending on where you are on the political spectrum, have said that congress is not doing its job. but this is entirely different because the constitution gives you members of congress, some highly specific responsibilities, including, i mean, kind of tells you, you have nothing else to do except you have to appropriate money. you have to come up with a budget and appropriate money. that's actually congress's job. if there are too many government employees, if these executive agencies have too many people, if you want to shrink the size of government, you have committees and processes in place for this congressman. >> that's exactly right. and not

only. >> does the. >> constitution make. >> it. >> very clear that only congress can appropriate this money, but we've also made. >> it statutorily clear. >> after the nixonian years where richard nixon tried to do similar things that we're. >> seeing that donald. >> trump is doing right now. in any case, at this point. >> i think that we. >> have to do. everything we can to. >> do two things. >> one. >> continue with. >> the outside game, so to speak, rallying not for profit. >> states. >> attorneys, generals and others to raise a hue and cry and pursue their litigation strategies. >> and then internally. >> within congress, we have to use whatever leverage we. >> have to. >> make sure that. >> we can avoid the worst excesses to come. >> one of the things. >> i'm most worried about. >> ali. >> is that. >> he's about to. >> propose gutting medicaid to the tune of $2.3. >> trillion. >> in cuts, almost. >> one third of medicaid, forcing tens of millions of

americans. >> off medicaid and. their sole source. >> of health care. we have to band together. and i think this is a moment where we're going to also. >> have. >> to hold vulnerable republicans in marginal districts accountable for where they stand. >> because. >> you know, this hurts republicans and democrats alike. >> joe, i want to go back to this truth social post. and i really i have such mixed feelings about these things because i don't tend to like to, you know, put these things on that. that may be nonsensical, but it struck me, donald trump without context, we don't know what came before this or what comes after it, what it's about, he says he who saves his country does not violate any law. brilliant. stupid. dangerous. what do you make of this? >> oh my god, ali, it's. it's utterly unamerican. >> it's un-american. >> and so. >> respect you because you do. >> your damnedest. >> to be a good. >> tough. >> independent. >> objective journalist. >> and the president. >> of the united. >> states puts.

>> that out. >> don't. no one should laugh at that. >> no one should. >> roll their eyes. >> at that. >> what he's. >> saying. >> i think it's really dangerous. >> ali, because. >> what he's saying. >> is i'm a dictator. >> i can do whatever i want. >> so if. you believe. >> in support. >> the constitution. >> you cannot. >> agree with what. >> he just said. >> but my other fear, ali, is he puts. that out to. >> give other people license. >> to do. >> whatever they want. >> as long. >> as they're doing it in the name of trying to save. >> the country. look. >> i feel. >> for democrats. >> in congress right. >> now because they are. >> out of. >> power and all they. what they need to do is. >> is. >> understand these. >> unprecedented times and sound like righteously angry people. >> raja and all. >> the rest of them. got to. >> go out in their. >> districts and show real. people being. hurt by what trump is doing. but ali. trump and musk. >> right now. are attacking our very.

>> constitution and they're doing. >> it on. >> purpose and it needs to be called out. >> congressman krishnamoorthi there there is an actual funding deadline quickly approaching. if congress were, you know, doing its normal work, there is plenty of disagreement between the two chambers about how to proceed with a funding bill. republicans do have to govern and get bills passed with a very narrow majority in which which means they've got to work with, with with some of you democrats. tell me how this looks, because you actually have actual important work to do on the part of the american people as members of congress. and yet, in the background, this thing is happening in which unelected people are going and gutting the government in what is appearing increasingly to be an unconstitutional way. how do you how do you walk down this road at the same time? >> well, first of all. >> if there's. >> a failure to raise the debt ceiling. >> if there's. >> a government shutdown that squarely lies at the feet of republicans, since they have a majority, they can pass measures to do both of those things on their own. however, if they come

to us as democrats and ask us to rescue them from the situation in which they find themselves, we have to put conditions on it. that's the only way it's going to work. whether it's with regard to raising the debt ceiling, whether it's with regard to votes to pass a budget and to avoid shutdown. we can't, for instance, have the president defy court orders. we can't have massive cuts to medicaid. we can't have all the things which are so excessive and that are hurting americans on a daily basis. >> just yesterday. >> you must have seen this report. they are about to. fire 200,000 federal employees. >> they included firing. people who. >> are guarding. >> the nuclear stockpile. >> ali. and now they are going out. >> to try. >> to find these people because they say they accidentally fired them. >> so now. >> we. have chaos and incompetence on top of malevolence. and this obviously is going to lead to people getting hurt. >> and joe, this is this is kind

of my point. like i'm fine with policy disagreement. that's we all live in this world, right? policy disagreements are fine. elections actually have consequences. but we elected more republicans to congress than we elected democrats. and as as raja says, they, in theory, can get their way with a lot of things. are there more of your colleagues, your republican colleagues, former republican colleagues in congress who are as outraged as you are right now who are saying, we guys, we have to stop this. we cannot let the executive take the role that the constitution and our constituents gave us. no. >> no. >> ali. >> ever since. >> trump, no. >> ever since. >> trump won in november. >> that reservoir. >> of private outrage. >> among republicans. >> went away. >> i can't. >> say this enough. >> his hold on the party. >> now is a. >> hundred times. >> what it was a year ago. >> and i don't think, look. >> we these. >> are unprecedented times.

>> democrats need to treat it. >> thus, the only condition that. democrats should. >> put on any help. >> that republicans ask. >> them for. >> is to haul. >> elon musk's. in front. >> of. >> congress under oath, and. answer questions as to what the hell he's doing. >> i mean, that's. >> the only. >> that's the only. >> thing. democrats should demand of these republicans and. >> anyone else. >> out. >> there who. >> doesn't think that a man who tried. >> to. >> overthrow an american. election is going to easily defy. court orders, is smoking something? gear up. >> imagine the worst. >> i want to remind my viewers that you two are good friends of the show. you don't hold necessarily similar views, but. but you both share the view that we should be debating them. we should be discussing them, we should be respecting our elections, and we should be respecting our constitution and our democracy. and that is not something that has to do with what where you are on the political spectrum. thanks to both of you. congressman raja krishnamoorthi, democrat of illinois, former congressman joe

walsh, also of illinois, author of f silence calling trump out for the cultish, moronic, authoritarian con man that he is. still ahead on velshi when trump's department of justice ordered career prosecutors to drop a criminal case against the new york city mayor, eric adams, several of these prosecutors said, not today, not ever. we'll discuss how important it is for leaders and everyday americans to hold the line. then the handmaid's tale has become more than just a novel. it's a rallying cry. it's a cultural touchstone, and it is a warning. i thought, speaking to margaret atwood the day before the supreme court eradicated the constitutional right to abortion, was going to be the most eerie, prescient moment for me about this book. hell, was i wrong? i'll bring you two stories that are straight out of gilead that have lasting legal consequences. >> legal in. >> and. doug. you'll be back. >> emus can't help people. >> customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty

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developments coming out of the white house. and while we have an update on one of president trump's many attempts to dismantle the federal workforce. on friday, a federal judge ruled that the consumer financial protection bureau could not terminate its employees without cause. the court order came in response to a lawsuit by several groups representing cfpb employees, who sued the agency and its acting director, russell vote, this week. the ruling prevents any mass firings at the agency and also prohibits the deletion of cfpb data. the cfpb, which is designed to protect consumers from corporate fraud and scams, has been in the crosshairs of trump, elon musk and russell vote. last week, vote issued a series of directives to cfpb employees to essentially halt much of their work. when asked this week if he could confirm whether it was his goal to completely eliminate the bureau, trump said, quote, i would say, yeah, but this court ruling marks at least one setback in trump's efforts to reshape the federal government. still to come, two states have taken steps toward authoritarian style criminalization of abortion. it's the kind of thing you'd expect to see in margaret atwood's gilead, not in modern

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pass by a public display of men who have been executed and hung on a wall. quote. each has a placard hung around his neck to show why he has been executed. a drawing of a human fetus. they were doctors in the time before when such things were legal. they've been turned up now by searches through hospital records, or, more likely, since most hospitals destroyed such records. once it became clear what was going to happen by informants, ex nurses, perhaps, or a pair of them, since evidence from a single woman is no longer admissible. these men, we've been told, are like war criminals. it's no excuse that what they did was legal at the time. their crimes are retroactive. they have committed atrocities and must be made into examples for the rest. end quote. this is from the handmaid's tale. it was written. it was published in 1985. in the world of the book, the totalitarian theocratic state of gilead, doctors had become the enemies, their profession had been legitimized. and as that scene that i just read to you

suggests, there was no worse crime than to perform an abortion, an act so heinous that the state displayed their corpses to make public examples. out of those doctors. in post-roe america, doctors have become the targets of prosecution, too. and in the past week, a pair of stories have emerged that are chilling examples of how anti-abortion states are escalating, escalating their efforts to criminalize abortion and to punish those who provide it. start in indiana, where the anti-abortion group voices for life has been trying to get the state to publicly release individual abortion records, which include sensitive information like the patient's demographics, their zip code and their medical history. like many states, indiana collects data on abortion procedures, but after the state implemented its near-total ban in august of 2023, there was such a steep drop in abortions performed in the state that health department officials stopped releasing individual reports because it feared that it would make it much easier to identify those patients. instead, they moved to a system where they issued

quarterly summaries of the data. but last year, voices for life sued the indiana department of health to get them to resume putting those individual reports into the public record. the two parties settled that suit earlier this month, which paved the way for their release with some redactions to those records. now, in reaction to that, the executive director of voices for life said, quote, access to these reports will help ensure abortionists are being held accountable for violating health and safety regulations. end quote. but a pair of abortion providers have since filed suit to stop the publication of those records again, and they're now awaiting a judge's decision regarding whether or not the records can be blocked. meanwhile, separately in louisiana, that state's attorney general is seeking the extradition of a new york doctor who prescribed abortion pills online to a louisiana resident doctor margaret carpenter, a physician from upstate new york, was indicted last month by a grand jury in louisiana, where the abortion pills mifepristone and

misoprostol were recently reclassified as scheduled for controlled substances. this is believed to be the first time that a doctor has been criminally charged for sending abortion medication across state lines. the new york governor, kathy hochul, has already rejected louisiana's extradition request, but the case is likely to be an early test of so-called shield laws, which some states have to protect providers who prescribe and ship abortion pills to states where abortion is banned. joining me now is michelle goodwin. she's a professor of constitutional law and global health policy at georgetown law. she's also the host of the podcast on the issues with michelle goodwin. she's the award winning author of the book policing the womb invisible women and the criminalization of motherhood. michelle, good to see you again. thank you for being with us. let's let's start with indiana. this is a massive problem that has ripple effects across the country because everybody, not just people who have sought an abortion, but anybody with pregnancy complications, anybody who uses apps to track their

basal temperature. everybody now has to think about what happens to records that can identify you as someone who may have been involved in an abortion. >> medical privacy has always been. >> something that's been. >> important in. >> ethics and also in law. and you're right. >> this could. affect any area of reproductive health care. but to what. >> your audience should. >> understand is that precedent matters. so then it's not just matters of reproductive health. >> care, it's anybody who's. had any kind. >> of medical care that could potentially. >> become outed by. >> the government. what we express to our doctors, how we seek care. it's been very important that there is confidentiality, because without. >> confidentiality, it. >> is very difficult to get people the health care that they need. so this. >> privacy. >> this ability to be able to speak frankly. >> and. >> honestly with the. doctor helps the doctor to begin to understand how best to evaluate and treat a patient. but if patients fear. that not only

will they withhold information, they may not seek medical care altogether. and given that. >> we have. just through a pandemic. >> can you imagine what it means when people are. >> sick. >> when they're. >> unhealthy and. >> they fear. >> seeking medical care? what that could mean to. entire communities. >> now, in addition, let's move to the louisiana story. in addition to being held or criminally indicted in louisiana, doctor carpenter from new york has been fined more than $100,000 in texas, a different state, for sending abortion pills to a resident in that state. both cases appear to be preparing to challenge new york's shield law. can you just talk to us about these shield laws? because i got to imagine new york is not going to extradite this doctor, but is she free to go wherever she wants to go? or is she going to be worried that she rolls into some other state? they'll arrest her and send her to louisiana? >> well, unfortunately, in this. >> kind of climate. >> then she should be worried about stepping into red states. what these shield. >> laws have. >> attempted to do, what they're looking to do is to.

>> protect doctors. >> who are. acting ethically. >> legally. >> doing nothing different than their doctors would have done in those states before. the dobbs decision, which was in 2022. >> that undermined. >> gutted roe v wade and reproductive privacy in this country federally, that means across all states. and so what we've had. is this hostile, toxic. >> environment in. >> states where they have banned abortion, making it a threat to health, as you and i have talked about before. but it's. >> not. >> just a threat to. >> health. >> it's a threat to. >> medical providers being able to provide medical care to patients. and what. >> these shield laws do is to. >> provide some. >> form of safe. >> guard. >> safe cover. >> for doctors who have been doing what they've been doing to help save people's lives. and i want to mention that in these cases. >> you have. >> doctors who have helped. >> miners. >> and that's how egregious this is. >> in the indiana. >> case, it is a doctor who helped a ten year old who had to escape from one state in order

to get an abortion in another state. ten years old, the victim of rape in the louisiana case. again, it's a minor that is involved. and that's an important thread that we should unweave because even. five years ago or five years before the dobbs decision, it would have been thought of as a bridge too far for republicans to support platforms that denied reproductive health care for children who have experienced incest or rape. but here we are. and in. >> louisiana. >> there have been several hearings where there have been doctors that have presented cases where they've said, look, i have a patient that was eight years old and raped. >> you would. >> force this eight year old to carry a pregnancy. and lawmakers are saying, yes. >> it's a remarkable set of stories. unfortunately, we've got too many examples of what you're describing. michel, good to see you as always. thank you. michelle goodwin is a professor of constitutional law and global health policy at georgetown law. she's the author of the

important book policing the womb invisible women and the criminalization of motherhood. all right, still ahead, trump's department of justice ordered career federal prosecutors to drop the criminal charges against new york city mayor eric adams. so several of them quit. why? that's such an important why? that's such an important message. next. for more than a decade farxiga has been trusted again and again, and again. ♪far-xi-ga♪ ♪far-xi-ga♪ ask your doctor about farxiga. here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need, and the flavor you love. so, here's to now... now available: boost max! i'm amy grant, and i want to talk to you from my heart about the heart. i would have been the last person on the list to say this woman has a problem with her heart. so, no, there was nothing about my life

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in the middle east. the trip comes as israel and hamas continue to navigate what appears to be a fragile ceasefire deal. and after donald trump proposed that america take over control of the gaza strip and expelled palestinian residents to neighboring countries. earlier today, rubio sat down for a closed door meeting with prime minister benjamin netanyahu. the two men gave a joint public statement where netanyahu said israel is working, quote, on full cooperation on a common strategy for the gaza conflict. for more on this, i'm joined by nbc's hala gorani, who is in jerusalem today for us. what is going on here with rubio's meeting with with netanyahu, and how does it figure into the broader story? >> well, ali, it's interesting because it seems as though iran has taken center stage in these discussions today between the prime minister and the newly minted secretary of state, marco rubio. they did discuss gaza, of course, but benjamin netanyahu was very intent on sending a message that israel is very

concerned with iran, with its nuclear ambitions. and this comes against the backdrop of increased reporting both in israel and the united states, that israel might be planning to strike facilities associated with iran's nuclear ambitions, with or without u.s. help. now we are, as observers, trying to understand what this means, because marco rubio has, in his foreign policy statements in the past, as many of our viewers know, have been more of an advocate for perhaps containing more forcefully iran's nuclear ambitions. but the president, president donald trump, who pulled the u.s. out of a nuclear deal that was signed by the obama administration and the eu and other countries a few years into his first term, an agreement that was signed in 2015 has said recently on social media that he would like a verified nuclear peace agreement with iran. so we're kind of trying to understand what marco rubio is saying when he says

that he is standing side by side and firmly backing israel's position on iran. and then what the president has said just in the last few weeks, this is marco rubio in jerusalem today. ali. >> a number of issues, none. >> of them are. >> more important than iran. israel and america. stand shoulder. >> to. >> shoulder in countering the threat of iran. >> behind every terrorist group, behind every act of violence, behind every. destabilizing activity, behind everything that threatens peace and stability for the millions of people who call this region home. >> is iran. >> well. >> regarding gaza. just to bring you up to date on that, there were concerns, perhaps, that phase two of this agreement between israel and hamas, mediated by qatar and egypt, was on thin ice. but steve witkoff, the envoy to the region, has told fox news that there have been productive discussions about the sequencing going into phase two. and while all this is

happening, the us unblocked a shipment of one ton bombs to israel. that was a shipment that was delayed by the biden administration, one of the very few measures they took to put some pressure on israel and that president trump has now authorized. ali. >> anna, thanks very much. hala gorani joining us from jerusalem. one of the things that stuck with me in the last couple of days is this eric adams story and how it all played out with one of the key prosecutors in the story from the southern district of new york saying that they might find some coward or a fool to do what the deputy attorney general wanted him to do. but he said that was never going to be me. i want to talk about what the right thing to do is in times like this, when we come back, stay with us. you're watching msnbc. >> my eyes, they're dry, uncomfortable. looking for extra hydration. now there's blink neutral tears. it works differently than drops. blink neutral tears is a once daily supplement clinically proven to

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mom: hey, that's enough you two! biberty: hey, i'm not the one acting like a total baby. mom: she's two. only pay for what you need ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: liberty. half the night. >> reading executive. >> orders for this defining time in the second trump presidency. stay with msnbc. celebrating 50. >> years of. >> music. live featuring arcade fire, 52 backstreet boys, bad bunny, bonnie raitt, brandi carlile, chris martin, dave grohl, david byrne, devo, eddie vedder, jack white, jelly roll. lady gaga, miley cyrus, mumford and sons, post malone, the roots. only on peacock. >> all right. a story that really stayed with me in the uproar caused by the justice department's involvement in the federal corruption case against

the new york city mayor, eric adams, which is, by the way, not a story that we've covered all that closely on the show, the eric adams stuff. it's own thing by now. you know, probably most of the important details, like how the department of justice pressed the acting u.s. attorney for new york's southern district, danielle sassoon, this woman, to drop the case, not citing any lack of evidence or procedural concerns or even concerns that the case is unwinnable, but just arguing that the case medals with adams mayoral reelection campaign and that it interferes with his ability to help president trump tackle illegal immigration in the city. but the part that really struck with me, what struck me was the resignation of seven prosecutors in protest of that order from the justice department. hagan scotten, the s.d.n.y prosecutor who led the case against adams, summed up their reason for quitting best in his resignation letter to the deputy attorney general, emile beauvais, quote, any assistant u.s. attorney would know that our laws and traditions do not allow using the prosecutorial

process to influence other citizens, much less elected officials, in this way. if no lawyer within earshot of the president is willing to give him that advice, then i expect you will eventually find someone who is enough of a fool or enough of a coward to file your motion. but it was never going to be me. end quote. it was never going to be me that has stuck with me since the moment i read it. and if words could set paper on fire, those words would have been the ones to do it. seven different people chose to resign from the department of justice prosecutors. rather than be complicit in what is seemingly a quid pro quo, they'd rather maintain their honor and integrity than hold on to their prestigious jobs. and to many of us, resigning amid that kind of untoward pressure feels like the honorable thing to do. the right thing to do. but is it? i'm asking that i don't i don't have a formed opinion on this. i truly don't know. on one hand, you will be on the right side of history. you will be able to

live with yourself, knowing that you held the line for what is just and honorable. on the other hand, if you resign and others follow suit, the anti-democratic actors in power will be left to do whatever they want, unencumbered by people like you who will stand up and stand in the way. so i ask you again, feel free to email me or post on social media about this. what is the right thing to do in this moment? and help me dig into this question? i'm joined by two of the smartest people i know, people who have both addressed this very specifically. barbara mcquade is a former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan and msnbc legal analyst, and the co-host of the sisters in law podcast. ruth ben-ghiat is a professor of history at nyu, author of the lucid newsletter that tracks threats to democracy. she's the author of the ever important book strongmen from mussolini to the present. welcome to both of you. thank you for being here. barbara, you and i have for years discussed the idea that there is a bit of a bulwark in places like the department of justice, but more broadly across the federal government and across the civil service and state governments of people who keep their head down, do their

job and, and, and actually fight for the constitution. so how do you see what has unfolded here at the s.d.n.y and with these resignations at the department of justice, on one hand, i'm inspired by and proud of these people. on the other hand, i'm worried that there are several, several, seven fewer people to uphold the law. >> yeah. >> ellie. >> you. >> raised a great. >> point because. >> although danielle sassoon and all of these others clearly did what i view. >> as the. >> right thing, the honorable thing, and also going. public to make sure the public understands what's happening here. what we are going to see next, i'm sure, is a replacement at the southern district of new york, who is someone who will be loyal to donald trump. and i think we were perhaps better off with someone who had integrity. but i. >> think this. >> is a long history, and i think what's most important about. it is that when they resign, they speak out. it reminds me of another incident that was a little different. you may recall that when sally yates was asked to implement the muslim travel ban in 2017, i know she's gone. public with her. thought process on this,

and she thought about resigning and explaining why. but she also has said, well, if i resign, then it's just going to. >> cascade to the. >> next person on the list and several people are going. >> to. >> have to resign, and i don't want to do that to them. and so what she said is, i remember during my confirmation hearing at the senate. >> i. >> was asked if i. >> would stand. >> up to the president who appointed me. >> if. >> i thought they issued an illegal order. and i said, yes, of course. they were thinking that would be barack obama, who had appointed her to be the deputy attorney general. she held on as the acting attorney general. and she recalled that oath. and so she decided to stand up to the president and say, we will not be implementing this. >> illegal order. >> of course, she was summarily fired. but again, she took a stand that i think ultimately proved correct because that law was. >> had to be revised. >> twice before it was upheld by the court. and i think sent an important message to the troops about the importance. >> of not. >> obeying illegal orders. >> you know, ruth, one of the things i think that's

interesting here, and i'd be curious on your take on this, is that this isn't even about ideology. danielle sassoon is a member of the federalist society. she's a republican. she clerked, i think, for antonin scalia. scott hagen scott clerked for justice roberts. this isn't about getting people who are ideologically on your side. this is as, as barbara said, specifically about loyalty. in other words, this isn't do what we collectively think is the right thing to do. it's do what i say and tell me about that. in the in the history of democracy's failing. >> yeah. >> so excuse me. >> we are in. >> the. >> middle of. >> a attempt. >> to. >> shift the governance culture. >> to accommodate. corruption and to accommodate. >> a. >> vertical structure. >> of governance where. >> only loyalty. >> matters to force people either. it's my way. >> you do what. >> i say, or you're going to lose your job. and so you're

right. this is not about a specific ideology. this is about. personal ethics. professional ethics. >> and what we're in. >> the middle. >> of. >> is an attempt. >> to declare ideas that are like conflict. >> of interest. >> professional ethics, objectivity of the civil servant as quaint democratic notions that must be discarded. and so the reason we're seeing people of different political persuasions acting like this in a principled. >> manner is. >> that. >> we're up. >> against a new kind. >> of enemy, and this is authoritarianism. this is an authoritarian assault on democratic institutions defined with a small d, and it is really important to make a stand. there's an argument to staying inside the institution. >> that's. >> becoming corrupted and being able to. >> work from within. >> but when. >> you're in a authoritarian takeover, it will become.

difficult to be inside those institutions. and so giving the public inspiration and giving your colleagues inspiration by making a public stand is very important. at moments like this. >> right. i know you've said that corruption is contagious. courage is also contagious. so i guess we've got to figure out how we manage this. can you both hang around for just a moment? we're going to take a quick we're going to take a quick break and we'll continu so, what are you thinking? i'm thinking... (speaking to self) about our honeymoon. what about africa? safari? hot air balloon ride? swim with elephants? wait, can we afford a safari? great question. like everything, it takes a little planning. or, put the money towards a down-payment... ...on a ranch ...in montana ...with horses let's take a look at those scenarios. j.p. morgan wealth management has advisors in chase branches and tools, like wealth plan to keep you on track. when you're planning for it all... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management. my mental health was better. but uncontrollable movements called td,tardive dyskinesia,

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>> back with me barbara mcquade, former united states attorney for the eastern district of michigan. ruth ben-ghiat, professor of history at nyu. barbara, this weird thing that donald trump posted yesterday, i think it came from napoleon originally. he who saves his country does not violate any law. this is interesting from a guy like donald trump, who had once said that you could shoot somebody on fifth avenue and not lose any voters. you've commented on that. you said, this is where the law ends. the tyranny begins. >> yeah. this is a really frightening comment. and i worry that along the lines that ruth has just talked about, we are seeing efforts, i think, to sort of normalize this idea that the ends justify the means as long as i am doing what i was given a mandate to do by the electorate, then anything i do is therefore lawful because i'm doing it for the greater good. that is not how the law works. if you want

to change something in the law, you can do that. we have constitutional amendment processes. we have the ability to pass legislation. the president does have significant powers under article two, but those powers are limited. and, you know, donald trump has said from time to time i have article two, which means i can do anything i want. it really doesn't. it says it vests him with the executive power, which means he gets to execute the laws that are passed by congress, that he's the commander in chief of the armed forces. so certainly he does have a great deal of power when it comes to the military, but also that he must take care that the law be faithfully executed. and that's the one that he wants to run roughshod over. it is his duty to comply with the law. and when he fails to do so, we need courts to push back, and we need congress to push back against high crimes or misdemeanors. >> and, ruth, we've had a couple of conversations in the last couple of hours, both with members of congress, former and current, and with other experts who have said, you know, donald trump seems to like the efficiency of using doge and elon musk, even though he's got

control of both houses of congress, of people who are ideologically aligned with him, who probably would agree that government might be too big, and we need to cut back, and there might be agencies that need to be trimmed. why? i've been asking this question for days. why not actually use the power and authority he's got? and steven witkoff from harvard says, but this is the point. he's actually working around that. why? why go through the cumbersome activity of using congress and hearings and debates and discussions when you can just have elon musk and your folks go in there and fiddle with whatever they want? this is it's sort of softening us up for whatever he wants to do. he can do. >> yes. and that's that. the comment it's sent chills down my spine as well that he can, you know, he can say what the law is basically, as long as he's saving the nation. this is one of the oldest parts of the authoritarian playbook. i literally have a chapter in strongman about, you know, the great man as the savior and on the basis of having to save the

nation. the nation from what? it's not clear. but it's always the same. marxism degenerates, immigrants. that's how autocrats declare, you know, states of emergencies and other states of exception that allow them to use the law differently or discard the law altogether. but he it doesn't make sense for him as an authoritarian. he is enacting authoritarianism every day right now. and so for him to do business as usual, taking advantage of his control of, you know, of the legislature is not the authoritarian way. it's very important that he acts like an authoritarian. so that people get the message, including foreign autocrats who are his true kindred spirits. >> and so, barb, this goes full circle to the idea that that in theory, we have a we have an infrastructure out there. there are still people with power, including us, people who are in the media. what what message do the viewers in this last minute take away? what are you supposed

to do in the face of this firehose? of what looks and smells and walks a lot like authoritarianism? >> well, the public still has the power in a democracy to push back. as abraham lincoln once said, public sentiment is everything. with it, you can do anything, and without it you can do nothing. and so i hope that maybe this moment of the eric adams case is a wake up call to people, that it's time to push back and it's time to say, this is not normal democracy in action. we need to step back. and so i hope people will call their senators, call their members of congress, because it would be wonderful to have some oversight hearings to make people explain themselves so that the public can get a sense of just how abnormal all of this really is. >> yeah, we never used to think things like oversight hearings were, you know, thing you'd watch. this kind of happened in the background. this is where things like that are really important. thanks to both of you. barbara mcquade, former united states attorney in michigan and an msnbc legal analyst. ruth ben-ghiat is a professor of history at nyu, author of strongmen from mussolini to the present. that

does it for me. thanks for watching. catch me back here every saturday and sunday morning from ten to noon eastern. don't forget. the show is available as a podcast so you can follow and listen for free wherever you get your podcast. plus, you can always find velshi content on youtube. head to msnbc.com/ali, and you can scan this qr code on your screen to follow me on blue sky. you can find me at blue sky social. but again, you can just scan that qr code and it'll take you right to my page. stay right where you are. inside with jen psaki begins right now. >> okay. if you felt like you were losing your mind this week, you are not alone because it's hard to wrap your head around something as brazenly corrupt as the trump administration's mafia style deal with the mayor of new york. congressman dan goldman was a prosecutor in the office where it all unfolded, and he's coming up first. plus, as the impacts of elon musk's mass layoffs come into view all across the country, i'll talk to someone who is speaking out as forcefully as anyone in washington. the chair of the