get together and do this. it was just the most amazing thing. >> officer, what's the bigger message? >> the bigger message is, is stand behind those people who need the help in the community. if we can stand behind someone who needs our support at that point in time, then we stand behind them. we're in this together. >> and that wraps up the hour for me. i'm jose diaz balart. you can always reach me on social media at jd ballard, and you can watch clips from this show at youtube, at msnbc.com. thank you for the privilege of your time. ali vitali picks up with more news right now. >> right now on msnbc reports the united states abroad secretary of state marco rubio is in saudi arabia ahead of talks to try and end russia's war in ukraine. who's invited to the negotiating table and what's at stake? plus, elon musk's department of government efficiency continues cutting workers throughout the federal government. as an irs employee affiliated with doge plans to

seek access to an irs system with sensitive taxpayer data. according to an administration official. where it all stands during tax season, no less. coming up ahead. and later, a live report from storm ravaged kentucky, where torrential rains and deadly flooding has killed at least 11 people. and state officials warn the death toll could climb even higher. good day. i'm ali vitali in washington. the white house is starting its most intense negotiations yet, as it seeks an end to russia's war in ukraine with the big question who gets a seat at the table? for now, secretary of state marco rubio is leading the talks and says the next few days will show whether russian president putin is serious about ending the war he started. rubio and russian officials meet tomorrow in riyadh. it's part of president trump's push for peace talks and to revive relations between washington and moscow. just days after spending more than an hour

with him on the phone, president trump says he and putin could meet in person very soon. >> i think he wants to stop fighting. i see that because if he's going to go on, that would have been a big problem for us, and that would have caused me a big problem because you just can't let that happen. i think he wants to end it and they want to end it fast, both of them. and zelenskyy wants to end it too. >> the trump administration already floating two potential concessions from ukraine territory and access to the region's rare earth minerals. ukraine's president zelenskyy told my colleague kristen welker on meet the press he won't accept any deal made without his input, but trust he has trump's support. >> can you accept any peace deal that is cut without ukraine? >> no. >> and do you feel like you have a seat at the table right now? >> i not only count on it, i'm

sure. >> that we have to be there. otherwise it's not acceptable. i think the president has this chance, and he's strong. and i think that really, he can he can push putin to peace negotiations. >> european nations also looking for a say. leaders holding an emergency security summit today in paris after being left out of the u.s. russia talks. french officials say presidents trump and macron spoke this morning before the paris meeting got underway. we begin this hour with nbc news senior white house correspondent garrett garrett. no one wants to be left out of these negotiations. but what's the white house rationale for doing it the way they're doing it? >> well, the white house. >> believes they fully know and understand what ukraine wants out of this process. and what they have to do now is essentially figure out if the russians are serious. remember, this is the inverse of how we usually see negotiations like this take place, where you have low level contacts that slowly bubble up and eventually involve

the sort of people at the top of the pyramids in their respective countries talking. here you have the two presidents, president trump and president putin, speaking directly last week for 90 minutes. now you have the secretary of state and other top foreign policy aides to president trump who have to go back and kind of make sure that the russians mean what they say on this and that last week's release of marc fogel, the american who had been improperly detained in russia for several years, was what they thought it was a good faith gesture that might get him to this point. there's just a lot of sort of the trust but verify part of this process that has to happen before the next stage can occur, which with donald trump, you always know, is him wanting to engage directly with the foreign leaders. so that's where we're likely headed a trump-putin summit of some kind. but right now, it's this first step of do the russians really mean what president putin said to donald trump last week? are they serious about trying to end this war? >> yeah, certainly a lot of questions as these summits or beginnings of talks start. garrett haake, thank you. and joining me now is retired army

lieutenant colonel and former national security council director of european affairs alexander vindman. he's now a senior adviser to votevets and author of the upcoming book, the folly of realism how the west deceived itself about russia and betrayed ukraine that comes out next week. perfect timing. colonel, i want to start by playing a warning president zelensky made on meet the press that putin might invade a nato state. watch that. >> it can happen in summer. maybe in the beginning. maybe in the end of summer. i do not know when he prepares it, but it will happen. and at that moment, knowing that he did not succeed in occupying us, we do not know where he will go. there are risks that this can be poland and lithuania, because we believe. we believe that putin will wage war against nato. >> zelenskyy is navigating several audiences here, appealing to europe, flattering the u.s. president at points in

that interview. speaking in english. how is he doing and will it work? >> i think. >> he is has an enormous task in front of him. he's talking to folks that are potentially unpersuadable, whether that's trump or putin. the most say he has is with european allies that are that are in fact allies and partners and want to see ukraine come out on top. russia taking a loss like this. they don't continue to engage in military aggression. no. over the course of this next week, we will have a really a replay of historical patterns, things that i talk about in my book, each administration, even though this is a return of the trump administration, has to relearn the same lessons that russia is a bad faith actor. russia is only going to act in response to strength and resolve, will not really give ground with regards to appeasement. the trump administration has given three things away. they've talked about ukraine giving territory away. they've talked about ukraine outside of nato, and they've talked about these

economic concessions for ukraine to repay the $100 billion that the u.s. has provided, not even addressing the question of trade. it's kind of good news that we see marco rubio and mike wallace involved. these are the two kind of true professionals in the trump administration. they understand what russia is and that russia is a tough adversary. and starting at the top is another format. it doesn't always have to start at the bottom, but having these two principles and then trump come in to see if he could quickly achieve a peace talk. that's not going to happen, but he'll learn that lesson. and then then we'll see the table reset. then we might see additional support for ukraine, heavier sanctions on russia, because russia will play with us, but they're not going to give up on their fundamental desire to subdue ukraine, to bring ukraine back into the fold. that just has to play out over the course of the next months, before the u.s. learns the lessons it needs to, and maybe makes the right decisions going forward. >> yeah, that's clearly one of the key pieces here. but i think broadly, there's an

understanding that president trump wants to be seen as the winner. so how can ukraine use that to its advantage? >> that's essential. i think you hear republicans talking to trump in that manner. you could clearly see the telltale signs of marco rubio and mike wallace talking to him in that manner. he does not. he wants to be the ultimate winner. he doesn't want putin to be the winner, and the u.s. to be a weak. and trump look like the teaser. so talking to him in that language is important. i think another part of this is, frankly, something that feeds to trump's transactional nature, a deal going forward, not to address the aid provided, but going forward, where the u.s. invests into access into ukrainian rare earths is completely viable. a fair deal where the ukrainians benefit from economic investments. the u.s. gets security with regards to earths. that's a fundamental part of that formula. burden sharing is another part of that formula with the europeans stepping up. these are all things that appeal to donald trump. this is the case that i'm making over the course of the next weeks, with

the book and some other articles i've got coming out. this is a way to get the us or the president and the us to see that our play is back in ukraine, not bending to russia. >> i do just think, speaking broadly here, we are watching a massive shift with the us rebuilding its ties with russia, perhaps leaving europe to its own devices. even the subheading of your book, how the west deceived itself about russia. what is the impact of this kind of a reorientation or a deception, a self-deception as you describe it? >> well, so i mean, according to the to the data, which is really interesting, it's the fact that we've continuously catered to russia first policy that led us to the situation, russia graduating from malign influence, economic coercion to hybrid warfare, interfering in, let's say, elections in europe or ukraine to ultimately graduating to military aggression in georgia and the and ukraine and potentially eyeing nato. what is the fact is that the reality is if we show

strength, if we hold to our values, if we understand that our interests are stability, our best, most important trading partner is europe. democracies are good partners and we invest there as opposed to wishful thinking about russia. that is how we forestall this kind of aggression. so we are seeing the worst case scenario, a doubling down on the biggest mistakes that we made. while we still have an opportunity to potentially pivot to something far more functional, frankly, maybe a real america first policy, not one that sounds like a slogan. that really puts america last. >> we will be looking out for the book. it comes out next week. it is well timed. lieutenant colonel alexander vindman, thank you for your time today. >> thank you. >> and coming up in 90s, a d.o.j. affiliated irs employee is expected to try and get access to sensitive taxpayer data. what else elon musk's agency is targeting within the federal government. next. you're federal government. next. you're watching msnbc when emergency strikes,

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and wondering, is that place legit? those commercials are nice, but is that a real thing? and having lived it, i can say for sure that money is being put to incredible use. i've never once had to wait for insurance to approve a test or approve a medication. we didn't have to worry about any of those things thanks to the donations. and our family is forever grateful because it's completely changed our lives. >> welcome back. president trump's push to shrink the federal government could face its biggest legal test yet as soon as this week. the administration asked the supreme court to clear the way for the firing of an independent government watchdog. a lower court had kept the leader of a whistleblower agency in place after he sued. it comes amid some eyebrow raising developments at the irs in the middle of tax season. an irs

employee affiliated with elon musk's doge is expected to seek access to a computer system with sensitive taxpayer information. that's according to an administration official then at the department of energy. hundreds of nuclear safety workers were fired thursday, only to have the trump administration try to fire them. but since those workers no longer had access to their work emails, they couldn't be told that. and disease detectors at the cdc were among hundreds also fired over the weekend. some of those workers were sent termination letters, citing poor performance as the reason, even though most of them, according to a mid-level official, had excellent performance reviews. joining us now, scripps news correspondent liz landers, republican strategist susan del percio and democratic strategist basil smikle. liz, i'll start with you here on set, firing and then firing nuclear agency employees wages raises major questions about nuclear security. and then also just the way that the doge team is going about this. >> yeah. i spoke earlier today with a source who confirmed a

lot of what the associated press and other news outlets had been reporting recently, which which was that last week, as you said, a number of these employees at the national nuclear security administration, a little known agency, probably many of us even in washington, had never heard of this. it's within the department of energy, but semi-autonomous. a bunch of these people, like more than 180 or so people were given these notices that they were going to be terminated and then brought back on friday. so i spoke with daryl kimball, who works at the arms control association, earlier today, and he was just sort of explaining why this is a problem when people who are overseeing maintenance of the nuclear stockpile in this country are let go, and then brought back the kind of confusion that that creates. this is a very specialized kind of workforce as well. scientists, engineers, people that have a lot of training to deal with our nuclear facilities. that becoming a large part of this overall doge

conversation about national security implications of doge going into these various agencies, making changes and also accessing, in some cases, sensitive information. >> yeah, there's the sensitive data piece of this. i've heard concerns from sources and lawmakers about just the general brain drain from within the government. and you see it exactly in this instance that you're talking about here, liz. susan, republicans have been mostly silent when it comes to doge actions. so do you expect any reaction to a doge affiliated irs employee, something that liz was just teasing on right there, apparently trying to access taxpayer information again as everyone starting to file their taxes. >> do i expect republicans. >> to fight back? no. as a matter of fact, i think they like the fact that there is a the that the office of the president is the one making these really broad based decisions to reduce the workforce and cut spending. and they don't have to take a vote on it. when this comes back to their districts, though, when

people start saying to their elected officials, oh, this program is cut or the hospital can no longer serve x amount of constituents because the funding is gone for doctors. that is where the rubber hits the road. and we've heard rumblings from certain senate republican senators, but not enough to really make a difference. let's not forget, these are not surgical cuts. these are, you know, just going in there and trump going in there with a machete, consequences be damned. but in fact they are dangerous and they are irresponsible. >> well basil susan tease it up. well because this morning on morning joe, david ignatius described some of these cuts as ready, fire, aim. it felt apt. so what is your reaction that you're hearing from to some of these cuts, especially in departments like the cdc amid an avian flu outbreak, no less? >> yeah, that's absolutely right. and over the weekend, there was an announcement about hundreds of millions of dollars in cuts to education contracts.

by the way, these are contracts where educators have the opportunity to see if the curriculum in a school is actually doing what it's supposed to do to teach kids all of these things, this broad brush, this sledgehammer to, to, to government workers and to government services is doing exactly what you mentioned before, the brain drain, the loss of decades of institutional power and memory and history. and to susan's earlier point, yes, the members of the senate, republican members of senate of the house could sort of step back and say, this wasn't us, this was them. but what democrats, i believe are going to do and have been already doing is being able to detail district by district, how these cuts are affecting everyday americans. and we've already seen some polling that independent voters and moderate voters are reacting negatively to what elon musk is doing and the fact that they didn't vote for this. exactly. they may have voted for maybe shrinking

government, but they didn't vote for what could be widespread unemployment increases and challenges with, you know, sort of related businesses losing money because of the suddenness and capriciousness of these acts. >> maybe not. and yet there are some republican voters, i imagine, who are out there saying, this is exactly what i voted for. this is what draining the swamp to carry the phrase looks like. but one of the first places, liz, that actually felt the sledgehammer was usaid. and you're still tracking the fallout there amid all of the other that we're following. >> yeah. usaid was one of the first agencies that elon musk went into, and they shut off access to that building. and then we've been following these court cases in the last few weeks since i spoke on friday with a american who is based at an ngo in east africa. and basically just describing to me what it is like to be on the ground there, trying to do humanitarian work in various parts of the world. this person in east africa working on pet and hiv aids education programs

for young people, and how basically their ngo has been rendered inoperable right now because they received a huge majority of their funding from usaid. and the conversations that americans who work for nonprofits are having on the ground with people explaining they want to continue to do this kind of work, especially with something like pepfar and some of the humanitarian and medicinal programs that the united states has provided. this person saying that he's saying, yes, i want to continue providing this service. but right now, this is all on hold. their communications with usaid, this ngo, those are still paused right now. so that agency being in limbo, and we're still waiting for the federal judge to make a decision, we're expecting that on friday of this week. but with usaid in limbo, many of the programs that rely on the funding, they're also in limbo. >> you're talking about people on the ground who are literally

making life or death decisions, with their programs completely frozen in the water for right now. so, basil, as ken martin, the head of the dnc newly minted, takes his show on the road, he's doing a listening tour of sorts throughout some key states in this country. what's the message that you would recommend he puts out to voters that might be looking to democrats, maybe even trump voters who said that this is not what i voted for. what should the democratic message be there? >> well, i think, you know, i love what jasmine crockett has been saying. she's you know, she said that the. yeah, the one immigrant that is actually taking people's jobs is elon musk. and that's why, you know, i think just sort of turning the republican talking points against them, against them and saying, as i mentioned earlier, district by district, state by state, this is what is at stake for you to lose. this is what happens in your community when people lose their jobs. this is what happens to parkland when you have people fired from from department of interior and related agencies. so i do think

there is a great opportunity for can to really district by district and state by state, elevate those messages. and he can do it because as he ran the association of state democratic committees. he knows exactly how individual state democratic parties work. he knows exactly how to help them get their message out. the one concern that i have, though, is on the fundraising. all of these concerns are having an impact on democratic fundraising, not just the candidates, but the state parties and related organizations. so the one of the big messages is we can't get our message out. we can't talk about these issues unless you help us and keep us strong, so that that's a really important thing to look at going forward. >> yeah, i can't imagine that donors are wanting to throw money after a cause and a brand that they've heard is bad. susan, i want to end with you because president trump, amid all of this and in doing all of these actions, is testing the legal limits of what a president can do. and in a post on x, he

also appears to be channeling napoleon, the emperor, saying, quote, he who saves his country does not violate any law. to which california senator adam schiff responded, quote, spoken like a true dictator. there are protests across the country today against the administration, but are there any guardrails at this point and what are they? >> well, we'll see what they ar, because i don't think it's the courts. i think it is the court, the supreme court, that what they say to donald trump, if he decides not to follow it like they have, he has ignored other federal courts in the past. that is the point where the rubber hits the road. and we really have to realize what kind of nation we're living under, because once he breaks that norm, i don't know where it stops, but i do want to go back just to one point. i agree with what liz and baszler are saying, but there's something that really has to be recognized with what's going on in this country now and what americans overall are seeing, and that is they are seeing, even if they don't like

the way it's being done, even if they view it unconstitutional, they are seeing an executive getting something done. they may not like what's you know, exactly how he's going about it. but when it comes, for example, to usaid and they see, yes, a minuscule amount of money being spent on projects that no democrat would even defend, that that hits at the heart of a taxpayer who spends over $500,000 in their lifetime paying taxes, and they see money being, you know, spent on these kind of programs. it is just so important to not underestimate the pr value of what donald trump is doing it and why he, in fact has the higher numbers. he has this first month in term than he did in 2017. >> susan, i think that's critical perspective as we wait to see how american voters are metabolizing all of these actions. susan, liz, basil, i thank you all for joining us and for your expertise. and coming up, we've got a live report from kentucky where the death toll is

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first 24 hours of the storm, some regions getting a half a foot of rain. and the threat isn't over yet. nbc's shaquille brewster is in pikesville, kentucky, as one of the areas hardest hit. >> well, ali, we know that the governor called this area, called this county the hardest hit in the state. and i think this area kind of paints that picture fairly well. and that's because behind me you have the fork river where it's supposed to be. but if you were here about 24 hours ago, it was completely up to what neighbors say would have been over my head. and you see some of the mess that it's left, the mud on the ground, that atv that's completely overturned. when you keep going around, you see the car and you see where the mud is on that car. that just shows you the height of the water in this area. the good news is that the water has receded in this area. but i talked to local officials, the county judge here, in fact, who told me that there are people who are still trapped. the governor said across the state, there are thousands of

people, about 14,000 people without water, 17,000 or 14,000 without electricity, 17,000 without water. the concern today is reaching those people and providing them some resources. listen to a little bit more of what we heard from the governor during his update earlier today. >> the breadth of it from the furthest west counties having roads closed due to mudslides and rockslides, to still having water rising in parts of our east. this is a significant weather event that is sadly taking the lives of 11 of my fellow kentuckians. so you got a lot of families that are hurting right now. we need the country praying for them. >> he went on to say that so many of those deaths were related to people who were in their vehicles, as it was swept away by the rushing water. the concern from officials now is that later in the week you have more rain, more snow in the forecast, and they're trying to hope and avoid what we're seeing, like we're seeing now from happening again later this week.

>> ali yeah, that is a concern. shaq. and you can even see where you're walking your crew doing that. great shot panning around the area, the mud that you're walking in. great reporting from you and your team there on the ground. thank you. and overseas now today an israeli negotiating team is traveling to cairo for further negotiations on the second phase of that ceasefire deal between israel and hamas. on sunday, secretary of state marco rubio met with israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu in israel in jerusalem. rubio praised president trump's controversial plan to own gaza and displace nearly 2 million palestinians. >> it may have shocked. >> and surprised many, but what cannot continue is the same cycle where we repeat over and over again and wind up in the exact same place. related to that, the president has been very clear hamas cannot continue as a military or government force. they must be eliminated. it must be eradicated. >> today marks 500 days since the start of the israel-hamas war, and there are less than two weeks left in the first phase of

the ceasefire. hamas released three hostages on saturday, including israeli american who was welcomed home by his wife, and he met his youngest daughter for the first time, who was born while he was in captivity. joining us now from jerusalem is nbc news hala gorani. hala, where does the ceasefire stand now, and are talks looking for that next phase? >> well, right now, ali, a an israeli delegation is in cairo. they are discussing still discussing the implementation of phase one. phase one started on january 19th, and it calls for the release of 33 israeli hostages and for an exchange, the release of over 1000 palestinian prisoners. so this ceasefire deal that was agreed upon between israel and hamas and mediated by qatar and egypt, is meant to unfold in three phases. and the negotiations for the second phase was supposed to

start a few weeks ago. so we are already behind schedule. and as many of our viewers know, this entire cease fire agreement is on very shaky ground. last week, hamas said that it would not release the hostages, that it would postpone the freeing of the three men, that it ended up letting go on saturday because israel was not holding up its end of the deal by not allowing prefab houses and heavy machinery and equipment into the gaza strip to clear the rubble. so where are we? well, the prime minister, netanyahu, the israeli prime minister, is saying that he is going to hold a security meeting and that he is going to discuss whether or not to instruct his delegation to go on to negotiating over phase two. and if that happens, it will happen in doha, in qatar. now, while this is all happening, the united states has released a shipment for one ton bombs that had been held up by the biden administration. and there is still a lot of violence in the west bank and the extension of

settlements there, with 1000 new housing units approved in in that territory. ali, back to you. >> thank you for that reporting. and still ahead, the latest as talks begin on ukraine's future. plus, criticism grows after vice president vance's speech in munich slamming european leaders. i'll be joined by a u.s. lawmaker who was in the audience there. congressman seth moulton comes here next. you're moulton comes here next. you're watching upset stomach iberogast indigestion iberogast bloating iberogast thanks to a unique combination of herbs, iberogast helps relieve six digestive symptoms to help you feel better. six digestive symptoms. the power of nature. iberogast. with fast signs. see the visual possibility in your business. with signs and graphics, you can save anything. transforming your space begins at our place. fast signs make your statement. nature knows best. that's why new chapter vitamins... ...follows her example.

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>> coming back now to our top story. tomorrow, secretary of state marco rubio, national security adviser mike wallace and middle east envoy steve witkoff will all meet with the russian delegation in saudi arabia to discuss ending the war in ukraine. notably absent from that table, the ukrainian president, who made it clear at the munich security conference that no peace deal will be accepted without his participation. joining me now is democratic congressman seth moulton of massachusetts, who's on the armed services committee. he attended the munich security conference over the weekend. congressman, what was the mood in munich and how is that carrying over to the meeting in saudi arabia tomorrow? >> well, let me just talk about the mood in the room for that speech. it was one of absolute shock, absolute shock among our european allies, among basically everyone in the audience. i think many of us americans just felt totally embarrassed as vp vance delivered really not a speech, but a condescending lecture about the fundamental

tenets of democracy to our european allies. and what was most remarkable is just how hypocritical this speech was. he talked about not. he talked about respecting election results. he talked about not jailing your political opponents. and he talked about not censoring the media. the problem is that this is coming from a man who himself won't acknowledge the 2020 election results. this is a day after trump said he should jail the opponents or sorry, the members of the january 6th committee, his political opponents and this administration just kicked the ap out of the pentagon and is censoring dozens of words from government publications, keeping americans in the dark while they take reams of data off the internet. so the utter hypocrisy was met with a room full of hundreds of people, a couple hundred people, and about five of them applauded. i think four of them were chinese. it was only the chinese and the russians who liked the speech. the russian foreign minister actually came out and praised the speech. that's the only

praise you've heard about what the vp vance had to say. >> notable. when you break down the response like that. and so as someone who was in the room both hearing that and then the reaction from world leaders, the word i keep hearing is stunned. what did you say to them in response about this next era of american foreign policy led by president trump? >> well, of course, in private, the republicans that i was with at the conference were embarrassed by this speech as well. they're very scared of trump, so they're reluctant to say anything in public. i did hear senator wicker notably say some things publicly, which was good to hear, but what happened in the meetings to follow were democrats and republicans from the congressional delegation, house and senate, sitting with european leaders and trying to reassure them and trying to say congress here is united in a bipartisan way with ukraine. we stand with ukraine. we do not approve of the administration's moves to negotiate just with russia. we don't approve of what secretary hegseth, a fox news

personality, did just a day before basically selling out the ukrainians by giving away our biggest leverage in the negotiation, saying that it was unrealistic for ukraine to get its sovereign borders back and for ukraine to ever join nato. so what the delegation was trying to do is make up for the administration. but the result was chaos. and our european leaders, with whom we have stood strong in nato to prevent wars in europe ever since world war two, they feel really lost and they feel abandoned as allies. >> but you once again bring up a scenario that may seem familiar to viewers. it certainly feels familiar to me as a reporter in washington, this idea that privately, republicans are having different reactions than they are willing to have publicly. i do take the point that senator wicker at least offered some public on the record criticism in munich around the way that pete hegseth had been talking about the potential concessions to end the ukrainian conflict. but where does that leave your republican colleagues there? and is this one of the issues that they

might be willing, should the trump administration continue down this path of reorienting towards russia? is this an issue where they might be willing to offer some rare condemnation publicly? >> well, i would certainly hope so, because freedom and democracy. >> did they tell. >> you that the future stability of europe are on the line? but no, they didn't tell me that because frankly, they're being cowards. they're really just so scared of trump. they're so scared that he'll primary them, get them kicked out of office or whatnot, that they're unwilling to do the right thing. i mean, you saw a republicans cave on the nominations of people like hegseth, who some of them publicly opposed before coming around to trump's view. and what's most dangerous about this is what one republican adviser told me after the speech was that, you know, a lot of us were talking about how it was embarrassing, how it was out of touch, how it was selling out the ukrainians. but he said to me, seth, if you listen, listen carefully. it's actually much deeper and darker. he was talking about the enemy within.

this is some of the same language that hitler used to justify the holocaust. just after the speech, vice president vance went to the old nazi party headquarters in munich to meet with the leader of the modern day neo nazi party in germany. so what was bad at munich could actually get worse. this is a very, very dangerous administration. i think our european allies are just coming to terms with it. the republicans in congress have yet to find the courage to do something about it. back here at home. >> i do want to take it back to home turf politics, even amid that dire warning that you issue because you've been critical of your party specifically after losing the 2024 election. that brings us to this current place. have you seen any substantive changes within the democratic apparatus since the election? >> it's certainly moving in that direction. i mean, it is pretty incredible that the democratic

party could lose to an indicted criminal the first time in history we've run against an indicted criminal as president of the united states, and a party that's clearly not satisfied with trump. everyone hates trump, and yet he was elected to a second term. so democrats have to ask ourselves, how could we lose what should have been the easiest election in american history? i've offered some points. i've said we've become a party of elitists who likes to talk down to people rather than listen to americans. that's a party that's unwilling to even discuss contentious issues. and that part is shifting. we're having discussions about contentious issues, like what our policy should be on immigration, what we should do about inflation. because clearly, the biden administration's response is viewed by most americans as inadequate. and whether we should have some compromises on things like trans athletes in sports, an issue that republicans hammered us with because we were unwilling to even enter the debate and have a response. so that is happening behind the scenes. but honestly, it hasn't been substantive

enough for you to substantive enough for you to see it in public yet. so we as democrats still have a lot of work to do. and by the way, that's what i'm hearing from constituents as well. there are a lot of constituents here in massachusetts that are not satisfied with the democratic response, even as they're terrified with what trump and elon musk and these republicans are doing. >> congressman seth moulton offering some searing criticism from overseas and some stark realities for your party back here at home. thanks for joining us. and coming up next, we're going to dig into president trump's latest assertion that the rule of law doesn't apply to him if he's just, quote, trying to save the country. you're to save the country. you're watc always dry scoop before you run. listen to me, the hot dog diet got me shredded. it's time we listen to science. one a day is formulated with key nutrients to support whole body health. one a day. science that matters. but st. jude has gotten us through it.

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powers when it comes to the courts. what are you watching for there? >> yeah, one. >> i'm watching. >> for if the supreme court takes it up, first of. >> all, obviously. >> but, you know, this is a continued show from this administration. and when they were, you. >> know, even just a campaign that they're willing to do things that other white house's other, you know, former presidents weren't willing to do. right. you think about. >> the fact that they. >> the supreme court took up the immunity case. >> and came down on the side of donald trump. donald trump. >> is someone who is willing to. >> push the. >> bounds of what is legal, to see if he's see if it's. >> going to work out. >> right. i think other presidents usually say to their teams, if we don't think we're going to win, let's not do it. donald trump likes to try that theory out, and sometimes he gets it right. so i think whether or not the supreme court, which has a bunch of folks that donald trump himself put up and he sees as kind of needing to be loyal to him, actually takes this up and what they decide here. but, you know, when you talk to people who are legal experts and we have one

here, they they would tend to say that this kind of thing isn't allowed. >> well, this is certainly going to be one of those early key tests that tell us a lot about this supreme court. paul, over to you. because president trump posted this one sentence, napoleonic napoleon esque social media post on saturday saying, quote, he who saves the country does not violate any law. i'm going to have you take the legal perspective on this. what do you think of that? >> it's wrong. legally, the vice president vance has implied that maybe the administration doesn't have to follow court orders if it disagrees with those orders. and as a practical matter, vice president vance asked. oh, what could the supreme court do? it doesn't have an army to enforce its rulings. and ali, in the litigation that the administration filed yesterday before the supreme court, the acting solicitor general made a point of saying that the

administration does plan on following court orders, even when it disagrees with those orders. again, the reason that was breaking news is because when we hear this kind of rhetoric coming from the president himself, it doesn't sound like he's fully on board with what the rule of law dictates, which is that he's got to do what judges ordered him to do. >> and again, when you have the vice president openly questioning if the administration should defy the courts, it's notable and worth tracking. but, paul, i also want to talk about the controversy surrounding the doj and its move to dismiss federal charges against new york city mayor eric adams, around the same time that the mayor decided to give ice officials access to rikers island prisoners. yesterday, the border czar, tom homan, said none of that was a quid pro quo, but adams has denied that as well. but several prosecutors resigned rather than drop the charges against adams. so, paul, what do you make of this? >> it's clear that mayor adams

understands the assignment. he's getting a temporary break on his criminal case so that he can help donald trump and elon musk achieve their political objectives. that's against every rule in the us attorney manual and the justice department code of ethics. and so that's why these prosecutors, these brave american heroes, resign rather than carry out this unethical order, which is trump's attempt to weaponize the justice department. >> eugene, how are they talking about this within the white house? because, of course, you've got homan backing up the idea that it's not a quid pro quo, but privately. what's the idea here? >> yeah, i think i mean, he even when he was on tv with eric adams. right. he talked about basically like i'm going to be in your office if things don't go well. right. kind of like making clear here that they see this as political. and even in the argument in dropping this case, it wasn't that, you know, there was nothing here. there

was there was no evidence. it was that, you know, this would be an issue for eric adams to be able to essentially do, you know, do the immigration policies that this administration wants them to do. and so it is very it seems kind of clear when you talk to folks and in the white house, they feel like they're in their right to be able to do that, clearly. >> yeah. it wasn't a lack of evidence. in fact, prosecutors in resigning said they were going to have a superseding indictment. eugene daniels and paul butler, thank you for coming on today. and that does it for this hour. coming up, the new chair of the democratic national committee, ken martin, is heading out on his first multi-state tour. we'll break down his messaging and his plans for the party's rebranding. for the party's rebranding. you're watching msnbc. with fatigue and light-headedness, i knew something was wrong. then i saw my doctor and found out i have afib, and that means there's about a 5 times greater risk of stroke. symptoms like irregular heartbeat, heart racing, chest pain, shortness of breath, fatigue, or light-headedness, can come and go.

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entire first order@fabletics.com as a new vip member. >> good day. i'm ali vitale in washington in for chris jansing. push back on peace talks. ukraine's president demanding a seat at the table as the u.