entire first order@fabletics.com as a new vip member. >> good day. i'm ali vitale in washington in for chris jansing. push back on peace talks. ukraine's president demanding a seat at the table as the u.s.

and russia prepare for talks to end the war. the latest there and from paris, where european leaders are facing their own moment of truth. rattled by donald trump's outreach to vladimir putin. a double disaster as communities across kentucky try to recover from deadly flash floods that claimed 11 lives, they're facing now a new threat plunging temperatures and heavy snow and fired. but for what? exactly? as more federal workers get the ax, some are being told it's for poor performance. the problem? all the reviews said the exact opposite, but we start now overseas, where top trump administration officials are in saudi arabia for the start of talks with russian officials, the first step in potentially ending the war in ukraine and dictating the future of europe, albeit without the ukrainians or the europeans taking part. ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky appeared on nbc's meet the press this weekend and said that's unacceptable. >> have you been given. any assurances that ukraine will

have an equal seat at the negotiating table? >> so i will never accept any decisions between the united states and russia about ukraine. never. and our people never, and our adults and children and everybody. it can't be. >> so can you accept any peace deal that is cut without ukraine? >> no. >> we should note that, secretary of state marco rubio said sunday that once, quote, real negotiations get underway, both ukraine and europe will be involved. but that's not easing any concerns overseas in the interim. at an emergency summit in paris today, european leaders discussed fears that the talks over ukraine may be an early sign of a broader shift in the international balance of power, with europe no longer able to count on the us to be the ally it once was. i want to bring in nbc's raf sanchez in london. nbc's yamiche alcindor is covering the white house, and richard stengel served as undersecretary of state for public diplomacy and public affairs in the obama

administration. he's also an msnbc political analyst. yamiche, first to you, we got word that zelensky is supposed to be in saudi arabia later this week, but that's separate from these talks. what do we know about how this is going to play out? >> that's right. well, we know, of course, that senior american officials and senior russian officials will be meeting in saudi arabia tomorrow to talk through what the end of the war in ukraine could look like. but as you said, ukraine is not going to be at that table. now, president zelensky is saying that he is going to be in saudi arabia the next day. he said that that's been a long planned trip and that he is still not going to be part of these negotiations. he has been very clear that he wants to be part of the negotiations, and that really any sort of peace deal has to have ukraine at the table. so he said he's going to talk to saudi arabian officials to talk a little bit about what might have been accomplished between those talks between russia and u.s. counterparts. that being said, president trump has been talked and questioned about this issue. take a listen to what he said. >> spacex zelensky. >> to be involved in these

conversations. >> what will. >> his role be? >> he will be involved, yes. >> on your timing of your meeting with. putin in saudi arabia? >> no. >> there's no time set, but it could be very soon. >> like this month. >> or. >> it will be soon. we'll see what happens. >> and as president. >> trump said, he said that this is essentially a starting point, these talks between the u.s. and russia and that ukraine will eventually be brought in. the other interesting thing that we learned today is that president trump spoke with the french president, emmanuel macron, just before that emergency meeting that's happening today in paris. a number of european leaders, including the leaders of nato, as well as the european union, they're gathering to talk through not just the war in ukraine, but also european security and how to respond to president trump effectively leaving them out of the table on these peace talks. and president zelenskyy also says he wants to see european leaders and, of course, himself at the table. ali. >> yamiche, really setting the stage for us there. thank you. rick. at best, the u.s. is keeping ukraine and europe guessing as to whether or when they'll be involved in these

peace negotiations. why do it this way? >> i don't know, ali. i don't i don't. >> know if. >> it's. a strategy or a lack of confidence, but, you know, there's an old saw that. all wars end in the same place at the negotiating table, but this war won't end at the negotiating table unless the parties to the conflict are at the table. i mean, it seems absurd to me that not have ukraine be part of these talks, by the way, if they're not part of the talks and there's a decision between russia and the united states, ukraine could say they're not going to do it. i would also add, it's absurd not to have the european union or nato at the talks. i mean, by my reckoning, europe has given about the same amount to ukraine as the u.s. has about $80 billion. ukraine is a part of europe. in fact, it's the largest country in europe, bigger than france. so i think they have to all be parties to the talk. because remember, you can come to an agreement and if people don't accept it and don't execute it

and don't act on it, it's not an agreement. and that won't happen unless ukraine and europe are in some way at the table. >> and zelensky already making the point. he's not going to agree to anything unless he's at that table. you've also got uk leader keir starmer referring to this as a once in a generation moment for national security. so, rick, what are you going to be watching for out of the other summit that's happening, this one, the emergency summit in paris today? >> you know, you mentioned this in the in the kind of lead up to this story. i mean, the europeans are facing a different kind of reality now. i mean, you know, the distance between europe and america has always been small. europe has always had a, you know, a relationship with the us. and mr. macron has been talking for years about europe has to beef up its own defense. it has to be more autonomous. and i think that's what they're going to be talking about. certainly during this final trump term. and i'm looking for them to, you know,

either make more commitments to ukraine or pick up some of the slack that will inevitably happen with the with trump in power. so it'll be interesting to see. and they'll be making their case for why they need a place at the table as well. >> when it comes to paying more for defense, that's one of the things that i've heard as a potential silver lining here. but raf, i want to play a little more from zelensky over the weekend. listen to that. >> is it true that you told president trump during that phone call that putin is only pretending to want peace because he is afraid of mr. trump? >> yes. >> yes, i said that he's a liar. and he said, i think that my feeling he said that he's ready for peace negotiations. and i said to him, no, he's a liar. he doesn't want any peace. >> so, raf, as far as ukraine is concerned, are these talks a step forward or not really. >> ali, the ukrainians are worried about every aspect of

these talks, from the format to the timing to the concessions being discussed. so format. secretary of state marco rubio meeting with russian foreign minister lavrov in saudi arabia bilaterally, the ukrainians not at the table. rubio has said these are not the real negotiations, but the ukrainians very concerned that this is an indication that they are going to be shut out of those real talks when they finally begin, and that they are basically going to be handed some kind of deal hashed out between the kremlin and the trump administration. they're worried about the timing, the biden administration's position, the position of most of the other nato allies was it was up to ukraine to decide when to go into peace negotiations. and it was the role of the western countries to put ukraine in the strongest position on the battlefield going into those talks. that is not the position of the trump administration, as you heard there. from that sound, from the president, they are talking about a very accelerated timetable for moving into these negotiations, whether

or not ukraine is on the back foot, on the battlefield. and then in terms of concessions, you have had american officials, including u.s. defense secretary pete hegseth, speaking at nato last week, talking very publicly about the kinds of concessions that ukraine is going to have to make in these talks. they are saying ukraine is going to have to give up its goal of recovering all territory lost to russia since 2014. so that's not just the territory loss since the full scale invasion in 2022, but also areas like crimea. they're saying ukraine needs to give up on its goal of becoming a member of nato as part of these peace talks. and the ukrainians, and frankly, a lot of the nato allies are very frustrated that the u.s. seems to be making concessions on ukraine's behalf in public before these talks even began. while at this point they are asking very little from the russians. >> that frustration also echoed by at least one republican senator, roger wicker. raf

sanchez, thanks for joining us. rick. i want to come back to you because i want to ask about this trump proposal that is out there around ukraine, granting the us access to half of its rare earth minerals in exchange for ongoing military support. here's nsa mike waltz talking about that on fox over the weekend. >> the american people deserve to be recouped, deserve to have some type of payback for the billions that they have invested in this war. president trump is rethinking the entire dynamic here. that has some people uncomfortable, but i think zelensky would be very wise to enter into this agreement now. >> nbc news has learned that since waltz made those remarks, zelensky told aides to reject that u.s. offer. but that being said, there's a lot of americans that would probably agree that the u.s. should get something in return for america's military support. but what's the downside to making diplomacy and alliances transactional in this way?

>> well, ally, you used the word that represents the trump foreign policy. it's completely transactional. there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. i mean, our foreign policy since world war two, beginning with the marshall plan, where we gave billions of dollars to help europe heal in without it being transactional, without expecting anything in return, except for what we got a peaceful europe for 75 years, a prosperous japan, a prosperous germany, a prosperous france. that's a pretty great dividend, i would say. and the dividend, if any peace agreement and what we've done to support ukraine of having peace in europe, of having ukraine be part of europe, of having russia be kind of more locked down and not invading other countries in europe. that's an enormous dividend. but if there's if we can get some access to rare earth minerals in a way that is not a kind of a colonial relationship with ukraine, i

think that's fine. there's nothing, you know, on its face that's wrong with that. but i do think the dividend of peace between ukraine and russia, russia contained europe, ukraine, part of europe. that's a pretty darn dividend by itself. >> you know, the umbrella over all of this, this entire segment is trump's relationship with putin. we are watching the second iteration of it coming into public view now, in these early weeks of the trump administration. but we've heard the concern from europe that the u.s. is shifting away from them. of course, once again, we see the putin-trump relationship in the spotlight. is this really the defining relationship of the trump foreign policy era, and what's the impact of that? >> well, you know, how many, how much have we talked about this over the years? it's kind of a black box, and i don't even want to speculate. but i do think i think it's a, it's a it's misnamed to think of russia as a

great power in the way that we did during the cold war, which i think trump still does. it's not a great power. it's a its economy is the size of italy. you know, there are two hyper powers in the world right now, china and the united states. and to focus on on russia is kind of a throwback. and i remember, you know, barack obama alienated putin when he said that, you know, who buys russian products? russian. russia is a gas station that sells vodka. it's, you know, well, and obviously putin didn't like that. i think focusing on russia to the extent of not focusing on china and not focusing on other global alliances is a mistake. >> maybe a throwback, but nevertheless very much where the trump administration is focused, at least right now. rick stengel, thank you. and in 90s, we'll go live to hard hit kentucky after some of the worst floods in the state's history. 11 people now confirmed dead.

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neighborhoods saw water levels go all the way up to the door handles of homes and businesses. in nearby tennessee, a levee break and more floods forced people to rush to higher ground. multiple tornadoes were reported in mississippi, and deadly winds hurled trees into homes in georgia. nbc's shaquille brewster is live in pikeville, kentucky, and nbc meteorologist tevin wooten is here. shaquille. this triggered president trump's first fema funding authorization in his second term. i thought it was notable given he said he wanted to get rid of that agency. but on the ground, just how bad is it today and what help do folks need? >> well, ali, you have different scenes here in this state. in some areas, they're waiting for the river to still crest, so they're still very much on guard. and others, you have the river cresting in the water receding. but this is an area that the governor said was one of the hardest hit. and i told you in the last hour about how the fork river is back there behind that fence there, and you could just see with the mud in

this yard, the power of the water coming rushing in. you see the fence completely toppled over. and when we talk about the height that the water got to. ali, look, this is the water line. you see the clear distinction that shows that the water went well above my head. i talked to told me she was in one area of the house, and the water came in so quickly that she had to knock through a wall to get to the higher level where the attic is. i want you to listen to a little bit of our conversation. >> when, all the way up to the gutters on. >> the house. >> the water went up to your gutters. >> yeah. >> and inside. >> it was to the ceilings and the. >> very, very. >> top step going. >> into the upstairs. >> part. >> she told me that unfortunately, she wasn't able to get one of her horses from the backyard to higher ground. so she lost one of her horses in this storm. we also know from the governor that the death toll rose. it's now 11 people, as you

mentioned here in the state of kentucky, the majority of those people are those who unfortunately didn't listen to what local officials continue to warn folks. and that's not driving through water, not driving through that standing water, because the warnings you continue to hear is that more often than not, it is deeper than it looks on the surface. so the governor advising people to not let down their guard just yet, especially considering more weather is coming later this week. we also have some frigid temperatures that are setting in, which is a concern for the 14,000 people still without power and about the 17,000 people still without water. ali. >> harrowing and heartbreaking stories there. and kevin. meanwhile, in the east, storms and powerful winds have already contributed to more than 4800 flight disruptions. what are you tracking nationwide? >> yeah. >> that's a great point to mention. this has. >> been day two. >> now of travel. disruptions across the northeast and specifically new england. think back to yesterday across connecticut and vermont. it wasn't just snow and wintry

weather. it was also ice too. and today it's the wind. as that. storm is departing, we've got about 62 million. folks impacted by high wind warnings, and most of those gusts today. >> will surpass. >> if they already haven't, about 50 to maybe even 60 miles an hour through portions of the capital district of new york and even western pennsylvania. we think the winds do subside. but just as we let our guard down, there's another winter storm that's already brewing. and this. >> goes back. >> to the pacific northwest with. 33 million americans already under some form of a winter alert. winter storm watches are in blue, winter storm warnings in pink through kansas city and the power and light district and those stretch across northwestern arkansas. so where is this storm going and where do we see it? well, today it's across the pacific northwest, entering the rockies and taking on some warmer weather with it to that, warmer air actually feeds into the center of the storm system, bringing the chance of severe weather. we're talking tornadoes, gusty winds, and even hail, too, from houston, texas to new orleans in the coming days. on the cold side of it, to the north, there's plenty of snow. and this also races offshore. we think for most

folks across the carolinas and even the dmv, some of the guidance tries to take it northbound, but this will not be enough to satisfy the appetite of a lot of folks there across new england. we're really just talking about flurries at best across cape cod. the snowfall amounts between now and thursday. in terms of that forecast, you see that zone of about 6 to 12in southwestern missouri, in columbia and also joplin too. but look at what we get here at the beach in norfolk, almost 6 to 9 to perhaps even ten inches of snow in pockets. it's not just the snow that we're also tracking with this. it's also the potential for ice as well. the good news today for folks that sort of doing this sort of repair or cleanup work from yesterday's storm, the weather is calm for the most part, minus those winds. but we do have dry skies today. unfortunately, between now and wednesday, there's another push off here, almost one to perhaps two inches of rainfall right along the i-10 corridor, major travel thoroughfare this time of year from tallahassee and jacksonville, all the way westbound across places like new orleans, louisiana, too. so we're monitoring that the tornado threat to there is no rest for the winter. storm weary

in the coming days. >> ali kevin wooten tracking it all and shaq brewster before him. thank you. and coming up, one of the risks of president trump and elon musk's high speed purge of the federal workforce. what happens if you fire people you didn't mean to. new reporting about what happened at the office that oversees the the office that oversees the nation's nuclear stockpile. want a next level clean? swish with the whoa of listerine. it kills 99.9% of bad breath germs for five times more cleaning power than brushing and flossing alone. get a next level clean... ahhhhh with listerine. feel the whoa! home. it's where we do the things we love with the people we love. celebrating, sharing—living. so why should aging mean we have to leave that in the past? what if we lived tomorrow in the same place as we did yesterday? what if we stayed home instead? with help, we can.

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details today about the messy fallout from donald trump and elon musk's move fast and break things approach to cutting the federal workforce. nbc news has learned that dozens of termination letters went out to transportation department workers that said that those those notices said that part of the reason they were fired was for performance issues. but a source familiar tells us most of those employees were rated as exceptional by their supervisors. a similar thing happened at the cdc as well, but the rapid speed of the government firings has also resulted in getting rid of people in the administration that they later realized they actually wanted or needed to keep. according to an email obtained by nbc news, officials are now trying to unfire workers at the agency that oversees the nation's nuclear stockpile. the big problem there. they can't figure out now how to reach them. i want to bring in nbc news senior white house correspondent kelly o'donnell and former republican congressman charlie dent. he's the executive director of the aspen institute congressional program. also with us, msnbc legal analyst and former u.s.

attorney joyce vance. kelly, first to you. what's the white house's plan to get these people back to work? >> well, part of it is outreach to simply say to those workers who have been fired that. >> those terminations. >> are being rescinded and for them to reach out to their former agencies. this is the kind of hurried approach. that creates a lot of unintended consequences. so the federal government did not maintain personal email or personal contact information for employees. so once they were severed from the federal systems, their government email, their government contact information cease to exist. and so pulling them back becomes much more difficult. so we're seeing in a real world experiment here how this is so very different than the kind of mass layoffs or upheaval that might take place in a private sector company. here we're finding there are so many elements across the federal government where there are

health, national security, public safety components to the work that people do and when they are pulled out of their jobs, there's a real consequence to that. this isn't just a case of what we've heard so much of federal workers who have been accused of just staying at home and not doing their jobs, an allegation that's been made many times by this administration. now they're finding out the responsibilities that occur in places like the department of energy, where they oversee the nuclear stockpiles, or at the centers for disease control, where there are people who are on the leading edge of testing and observation and surveillance of the next medical threat, a virus and that sort of thing. and, of course, at the department of transportation and the faa, where people are responsible for public safety in the skies and so forth. and we've had real world examples in just the last month about an air tragedy where there was all this talk about air traffic controllers. and now if you're

reducing that workforce, what is the real impact for public safety? those are the questions that are facing this administration. >> high stakes and high impact. so congressman maybe this move fast and break things approach might not be foolproof. >> well look. >> any. >> administration new incoming administration sure. >> if they. >> want to enter into some kind of reduction in force, they're allowed to do that. but there's a proper and a right way to do it in a smart and strategic way to do it. but what these guys are doing is these. >> these firings. >> are haphazard. they're indiscriminate, they're careless, and there will be consequences, as was just pointed out by kelly. i think this administration is making a big mistake. >> with this also. >> along with. >> their their retirement incentive. >> or excuse me, resignation incentive. >> they're also throwing that out there and they don't have it funded. i mean, the government's not funded through the end of september and they're they're offering payments to people and the money's not been appropriated for this purpose.

so it just seems to me that they are they're they're just really trying to break things. and when in fact, they could actually if they really want to reduce force, there's a right way to do it. and they've gone about it all wrong. >> i've got to appreciate a former house guy making the appropriations reminder there, because you're right. that's one of the reasons that people are casting doubt on whether or not that's actually a legitimate offer that the administration can even make. putting that aside for a moment, the workers who were let go by the administration, citing poor performance when their actual reviews show the opposite. does that give them some legal standing or legal ground to come and try to get their jobs back? >> will. >> it absolutely does. and like the congressman. >> was suggesting, there. >> is. >> a way. that you. can do reductions in force. there's even a way that you. >> can fire. >> poor performing federal employees. but this is not it. >> this is. >> just an irrational sort of an effort to achieve. >> a. >> political goal that's. >> not tied to the. work that federal. employees do. >> on behalf of the american people. every day. so by taking

employees. >> who are high. >> performing, who have years of performance evaluations that document their their supervisor's satisfaction with the work that they're doing, this new program is setting up a variety of legal routes that these now former employees can take, either to restore their employment or to receive some other form of remedy. likely what. >> elon musk does. >> the trump administration are betting on here is the fact that the system is poorly designed and staffed to process these sort of claims on a speedy basis. and some of these employees, just given the need to pay rent and to keep food on the table, may be forced to seek employment elsewhere and give up their claims. so it's a real effort to take advantage of federal employees on top of everything else. and i think something that we would do well to keep sight on is this effort to vilify the federal workforce as people who are lazy and slow

and stay at home and don't get work done, when in reality, these are the people that much of what's good and what works well in our daily lives is based on the work that they do. >> joyce, you bring up, i think, what i believe to be the most important part of this story. and, congressman, i'll put it to you because a union representing the federal aviation workforce that lost close to 300 of its members received termination notices over the weekend. they wrote this in part. they wrote, these are not nameless, faceless bureaucrats. there are family, friends and neighbors. they contribute to our communities. many military veterans are among them. it is shameful to toss aside dedicated public servants who have chosen to work on behalf of their fellow americans. these employees were devoted to their jobs and the safety critical mission of the faa. this draconian action will increase the workload and place new responsibilities on a workforce that is already stretched thin. so to that point, these are real americans with stories other americans can relate to. but how much is that

breaking through? >> well, this, that that that memo just really speaks to the careless, indiscriminate nature of these firings without any consideration for performance. and that's what's so stunning about this. and of course, there are going to be consequences, whether it's at the faa or elsewhere or at the cdc. you know, there are going to be issues that are going to happen. we are dealing with a bird flu outbreak. there is a bowl of, you know, resurfacing again and africa. there are all sorts of issues. and then if these things spread badly, if we have issues, they're not they're going to know who to blame. but also we should note that some of these firings are not indiscriminate. some are very are very deliberate and intentional. take the inspectors general were all fired for reasons people were trying to weed out waste, fraud and abuse within the federal enterprise were fired indiscriminately. one of whom was a very close friend of mine, is a close friend of mine, paul martin at the usaid for issuing

a report citing waste, fraud and abuse of the way they're shutting down usaid. so it's really tragic what what the this administration is doing to a lot of people who have been dedicated public servants. and, as you point out, many of whom have long distinguished careers in the military as well. >> and actually, one of those inspectors general who's part of the suit to try to get their jobs back in an interview with me on this network, said that part of his job is trying to make sure that government is running efficiently, that there's not fraud, and that he reached out to members of d.o.j. and never heard back from them trying to say, hey, i think we might actually be aligned on this. and nevertheless, we saw the way that the inspectors general were shown the door to joyce. i think that for a lot of this, it could end at the supreme court. certainly the case over the president's power to fire officials. could this put up more guardrails? less? where do you see this going, especially given this court? >> right. >> so in contrast to what we've been talking about so far, which is the firing of people who are career civil servants, now we're

talking about people who are presidential appointees, including the inspector general. this first case that will go up to the supreme court, though, involves hampton dellinger, and he's the special counsel of the united states. it's a little bit confusing. he's not a special counsel in the sense that jack smith was. he's actually the special counsel for the country. he's tasked with overseeing certain kinds of fraud, waste and mismanagement, and also with protecting whistleblowers in the federal civil service in the government. so he i think when he reached out to dodge was quite sincere. his mission is to prevent the sort of waste that they say that they are seeking. and his dismissal by the president would seem to violate the rules set down for his appointment, which say that he can only be fired for cause. but this case reaches the supreme court in a very early posture. the judge has issued a temporary restraining order that will keep him in place for just a couple

of weeks, while she begins to consider the substantive issues. i don't think we'll be able to read too much into the supreme court's decision here, whatever it is, and it's very likely that they will simply take a hands off posture for now, tell the judge to do a little bit more work, and then they'll go ahead and consider the issues when there's a better developed record for the appeal. >> a lot of moving pieces here. former congressman charlie dent, thank you for joining us, joyce vance. you're sticking around with me. still to come, new york city mayor eric adams pushing back hard on calls for him to resign. what he's saying amid accusations that he's now accusations that he's now beholden time to press rewind with... neutrogena rapid wrinkle repair. it has derm-proven retinol... ...expertly formulated... ...to target skin cell turnover... ...and fights not one—but 5 signs of aging. with visible results... ...in just one week. neutrogena have you always had trouble with your weight? ...in just one week. me too. discover the power of wegovy®.

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instantly. >> in site credits. >> when you play your first $5 lineup. >> download the app. >> prize picks. >> run your game. >> in new york city, growing calls for mayor eric adams to resign or be removed from office. protesters rallying outside city hall yesterday, pointing to accusations of a quid pro quo deal with the trump administration to get his corruption case thrown out. >> the mayor of the most important city in the world is being held hostage by donald trump. you're selling out new yorkers. we know it when we see it, and we're not going to let it happen. and we're going to be outside your office every day until you're removed. >> now, the mayor, for his part, is forcefully resisting those calls. >> what they are saying. yes, i'm. >> going to continue to. fight for you. >> thank you. >> i'm going to continue. >> to stand.

and ■be a child of god. >> yes. >> back with me is joyce vance, a former u.s. attorney and an msnbc legal analyst. joyce, a federal judge, still needs to approve the dismissal of this adams case. is there any reason to think the judge won't sign off? >> well, that's a loaded question right now. usually when the government files this sort of a motion to dismiss a case, they do it because they have a good reason for doing it. and there's a suggestion here, based on the correspondence from former prosecutors in the southern district of new york, that that's not the case. so it's really likely that judge dale ho will order what's called a rule 48 hearing a gnarly hearing where he'll inquire into the government's reasons for dismissing the case. and i think it's difficult to predict just how he'll react. a large part of his inquiry will turn on what the government has to say in that hearing, and whether or not the court decides that it wants to hear from from witnesses. it could, for instance, decide to

hear from the acting deputy attorney general who's now signed off on the dismissal. or it could want to hear from prosecutors and former prosecutors in the office. i think that this is a very unusual rule 48 hearing, and all the options are still on the table. >> so you're saying, joyce, that this judge will take into account all of the public back and forth that we've seen between the prosecutors who left and left their jobs instead of sign off on this dismissal. is that all going to be part and parcel here? >> you know, i think less that public back and forth and more the underlying issue of whether or not the government seeks to dismiss this case on a good faith basis. >> that that makes a little more sense. thank you, joyce. and we'll of course, be watching that very closely. meanwhile, the newly installed chair of the democratic national committee is on a mission to get the dnc out of d.c. ken martin is kicking off a multi-state tour that will take him to key swing states

like pennsylvania and wisconsin, but also ruby red states like texas and missouri. for martin, the goal is to push democrats out of their comfort zone and have some sometimes difficult conversations to win back voters. they lost in the last election. >> so many parts. >> of our. >> coalition left us this last election cycle, right? we know that from latino voters to working class households to young voters to women, that's a damning indictment on the democratic party. we got to do a better job. >> joining me now is julie roginsky, democratic strategist and author of the salty politics newsletter on substack. julie, how is this different from the strategy that dems have done in the past? is simply leaving d.c. enough to leave the democratic brand woes behind? >> it's a start, but. >> it's certainly not enough. look, we need. >> a. >> top to bottom. >> cleaning, house cleaning. >> and i think what we need to do is. >> have a. >> serious look. >> at what went wrong in the last election. >> but most importantly. >> we. >> need to learn how to

communicate. >> and where to communicate. >> i think the problem is that democrats. have been so worried about segmenting. their communication that they've forgotten basically the forest for the trees, and we don't know how to communicate to voters on their. terms holistically, because we try so hard not to. offend some segment of our base that we end up offending everybody. so it doesn't just mean that you have to go to texas and missouri and pennsylvania and every state that the new chairman is going to. it means that we have to go to places like substack and youtube and not just go to the same old places where where we've typically communicated, because that's not where the voters are anymore. it's certainly not where the growing number of voters are migrating to. but most importantly, we need to have a strategy as to how to deal with the fact that our constitutional republic is dying. and i have not seen the new chairman or, frankly, any of our leaders in washington right now speaking to that. they are in some completely scared child pose posture where they're too worried about what to say, even as the president dismantles

everything this country stands for. and i think that's the biggest three alarm fire that we could possibly address right now. i strongly urge the new chairman to address it immediately and to rally our leaders across the states and across capitol hill to do the same. >> that's just one of the things that ken martin is going to have to deal with. because you're right, this has been an active argument within washington. around is the pushback enough? what more can democrats do, especially given the fact that they are in the minority in congress? even congressman seth moulton, who's been critical of the party, was on with me last hour saying, yeah, maybe we've made some changes, but certainly not visible and not enough. but for ken martin, even this morning on morning joe, before he embarked on this tour of key states, he was asked about questions on policy that plagued democrats during the election, specifically on trans and gender policy. and he sort of avoided the issue as a central focus, instead just saying, well, we're going to do an autopsy of what

went wrong. time is of the essence, right? i mean, can democrats avoid this conversation much longer? >> listen, it's not a difficult message. donald trump promised to bring down grocery prices on day one. he made that promise in august. every single part of your grocery bill has gone up since he's been in office. that is something that affects you whether you're trans or you're straight, or you're a man, or you're a woman, or you're black or you're white or you're latino, it doesn't matter. we have to start speaking to people on their own terms. he is dismantling our democracy, and the fact that we're sitting around having to think about things. what is there to think about? he and every single leader of our party needs to be out there every single day. i respectfully disagree with hakeem jeffries. he's not derek jeter. he doesn't have to pick and choose which pitches to hit. you hit every single one because this president is serving up softballs for you. it is easy to hit back at something that is destructive of our country and

destructive of our party, and destructive of our collective community. and rather than sitting around figuring out how to segment everything and doing it yet another focus group, or listening to yet another political consultant, i say this as a consultant myself. go out there and explain to the people what is happening to our country. i don't know whether our leaders in washington. i certainly hope the new chairman hears this, but listen, i just did a chat with my substack subscribers on sunday. the furor and just the anger that the base is feeling towards our leaders because they felt abandoned. they feel abandoned. they feel like nobody's out there standing up for their values right now. and these are people who are progressive democrats, but they're also people who are moderate democrats. this is across the board. this is not a matter of ideology. it is a matter of whether we have people in charge who are fighters or people in charge who are cowering. donald trump did not get a mandate. he did not have a mandate. he barely won the popular vote in one of the

closest elections in history. so for us to be treating him like he's some sort of immovable object is absurd. go out there and fight. that is what the party needs from its chairman. that's what it needs from its leaders on the hill right now. >> julie roginsky giving voice to a lot of the conversations that i know i've been having with sources and elected members here in washington and ongoing debate. thank you for joining us. thank you. and coming up next, a fiery and tough to reach pileup deep inside a major interstate tunnel. the possible cause and the dramatic video as cause and the dramatic video as people tried to make it ou end-of-season savings just landed at wayfair. our presidents' day clearance is here! and with deals this big, you'll be like, am i a... big deal? yes you are. which is why you deserve our best deals since black friday. with fast shipping straight to your door. this sale ends february 18th so shop wayfair's presidents' day clearance today and wrap up winter with up to 70% off everything home!

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call the number on your screen now to talk to a real person. >> take a look at this video. a dramatic rescue at sea after a huge cargo ship lost power and ran ashore off newfoundland in canada. the waves slamming against the side of the ship, pinning it against the rocks. the canadian coast guard deployed helicopters to rescue the crew, and all 20 people on board were thankfully airlifted to safety. officials are still working on a plan, though, to remove the ship and then turning our attention to wyoming, where a third death has now been reported after a crash deep inside a tunnel shut down a critical cross-country interstate. investigators are now slowly working to clear the wreckage and figure out what touched off a fiery 26 vehicle pileup. nbc's dana griffin has the latest. >> i was on fire. i got to get out of here.

>> these were the harrowing moments after a massive. >> wreck set. >> off a fiery. inferno inside this tunnel on interstate 80, in wyoming. o videos posted on tiktok show this truck driver scrambling to get out alive. >> how long was that in there, man? >> investigators confirmed a third fatality. >> as they. >> slowly make their way through the obstructed. >> tunnel. >> searching for potential victims while preserving evidence. >> do you think speed or weather. >> played. >> a role. >> in. >> this crash? >> weather? >> definitely speed more than likely, but that's going to be determined once we gather all of the evidence. >> jennifer knox taking this video as authorities rush to the scene as thick black smoke billowed from the westbound tunnel. >> have you ever. >> seen anything. >> like this before? >> no. >> no. >> certainly not here. >> the pileup happened friday morning involving 26 vehicles. two people were also injured. wyoming highway patrol saying the fire was so intense, tires exploded as the tunnel's concrete lining started to crumble. >> we didn't see any exposed

rebar, but we're seeing a lot of a lot of debris. >> on the ground. >> but the. integrity of the mountain tunnel, they say, is secure. >> there's no issues with the integrity of the rock. so we're not we're not expecting the. mountain to collapse. the tunnel to collapse. >> it could take. >> days before officials open the eastbound. >> tunnel. allowing for. >> two way traffic. >> we'll get through. >> this is what. >> wyoming does. >> dana griffin, nbc news. >> thanks to dana for that reporting. and that does it for me this hour. catch me weekday mornings at 5 a.m. eastern on way too early right here on msnbc. still to come, texas officials sounding the alarm over a measles outbreak that's doubled in size in just days. what's driving the surge when katy tur picks up our coverage katy tur picks up our coverage right af ♪♪ sonya earlene and marcia are among the thousands of real women living with metastatic breast cancer; doing what they love. and taking ibrance. ibrance with an aromatase inhibitor is for adults with hr+/her2- metastatic

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