>> are very clear that the right wing is broken off of the airplane. so that's what. >> led to the fact that it. >> ended up. >> upside down. so those those are things that the investigators. >> are going to look at. they're going to look at. >> the. >> weather conditions. they're going to look at. >> the wind gusts. >> they're going to look at the wing when they find it and. >> see if it has. any impact. >> damage or anything like that. these are things that the investigators are going to look at. >> yeah. you wonder if maybe the plane hit a patch of ice, a wind gust caught it at the wrong time, and then just pushed it over and broke a wing off. obviously we're going to find out the exact details, but certainly an image unlike anything i've ever seen covering this sort of stuff at delta regional airlines jet upside down on the runway and in tact. that is going to do it for me this hour. thank you for joining us for this breaking news. deadline. white house starts right now.

>> hi there everyone. >> it's now. >> 4:00 in new york. we begin with the breaking news that a toronto where a delta airlines flight arriving from minneapolis has crashed on landing. that's according to the faa. you're looking at live images from toronto's pearson airport. the jet appears to have flipped upside down. it is a developing situation, and a lot is unknown at this hour. but here's what we do know. the incident happened around 2:45 p.m. eastern. 80 people were on board the aircraft. pearson airport has said in a post on x that all passengers and all crew have been accounted for, and emergency crews are responding. a local official tells msnbc that nine people have been injured. one is in critical condition and has been airlifted to a nearby trauma center. a child was also injured and taken by ambulance to a local hospital. this video shows passengers evacuating from the jet. the flight is operated by a

regional subsidiary of delta airlines called endeavor airlines. the transportation safety board of canada is currently in charge of this investigation. let's bring in my colleague, msnbc host ali velshi, who also happens to be a pilot. he's been tracking this story for us. also joining us, ntsb investigator, msnbc aviation analyst jeff guzzetti will join us momentarily. ali velshi, i've been listening to you on the air with our friend and colleague katy tur. just reset for us what you believe to be the circumstances around this now flipped over, upside down jet. >> so the delta feeder jet, it's not a mainline jet, but minneapolis, as you know, is one of the major centers for delta. toronto is the major hub in canada. it was on its way in. it was completely full. it's got 76 seats on that plane. two two people in the cockpit, a pilot and copilot and two crew. so that was a full complement, which is typical of planes coming into toronto. the issue is the weather in toronto has been very bad. it's had two back

to back storms, three plus feet of snow on the ground. i mean, i've had families sending me pictures for the last several days of just snow, which canadians don't do because they're used to snow planes came in. the landing speed is about 150 miles an hour. so think about that. plane seems to get to the ground at 150 miles an hour. now, if it flips over at 150 miles an hour, it probably wouldn't look the way it looks right now. it would probably be destroyed. so something happened. the pilots figured out something. the plane then seems to have flipped over. now, what we don't see is landing gear, so we don't know whether the landing gear failed. the landing gear broke, the landing gear wasn't open. or could it be that the winds are very high, that the plane could have caught some wind as it was landing the snow? the banks along the runways, the runways have been cleared, but the banks along the runways have a lot of snow, so that sometimes happens. you hit some snow and then you go over or snow blows onto the runway and becomes ice. the plane gets to the ground. most people get off. there are nine injured. some of those injuries are supposedly to do

with the weather because it's -four degrees fahrenheit in toronto. but the two who have been sent to hospital, one is a child by land ambulance. there are very, very good children's hospitals in toronto. it's a children's hospital center, really for canada. the other one was medevac to a trauma center. again, that's because toronto is a very heavily trafficked city. it's got excellent trauma hospitals, but it would be more standard to put somebody on a helicopter and in five minutes be at a trauma center. so that's what we're looking at right now. we are told that the critical injury is not life threatening, which is great news if true, but amazing to look at these pictures, to see an upside down plane on a runway, a jet, and understand that maybe nine people are injured. we're hoping it's not more than that. a lot of questions. the airport is closed right now. there were winds gusting up to 27mph, which would be entirely manageable for a crj 900 like that. that would not be winds that would necessarily cause it to flip. and the kinds of planes i flew. if you had 27 mile per hour

gusts, you just wouldn't fly. but that's not in and of itself the danger, whether the wind caught it and the wing caught some snow or there was ice on the runway, it might have been. it might be in concert with other things, that the wind was a factor. but the weather is definitely a factor there. there's a lot of snow to the extent that even the city of toronto has said it might take weeks to get that city cleared of the snow that it's got right now. so the weather is probably the most likely factor at the moment. >> ali, do we know if there were cancellations in and out of the airport at the time of this incident? >> i don't know yet. and i know this plane was coming in a little bit late and it showed as delayed. typically when there is the kind of weather you've got in toronto like this, you see departure delays because they're deicing all the planes. when it's that cold, they have to de-ice the plane. so you'll see an airport. it's like an airfield. it's like a big, much bigger than a football field, just full of planes waiting to take off. so you often have departure delays. we did not

know of any any incoming delays. i've seen some questions raised on social media about should the airport have even been open. it's important to remember this is canada's biggest airport. it's a major hub, not just for canada, but for international flights and for american flights. so pressure on airports to stay open. it tends to be high, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. airports tend not to close, even after dca after that plane crash at reagan national. remember the one of the first things they announced that they'll be open at 11:00 the next morning. so the airport is now closed, by the way. it's fully closed because they need to investigate, and they need to make sure that if it was weather or wind or they surmised that it might be. these investigations take a long time. they want to make sure it doesn't happen twice. so i don't know that there were delays coming in. i know there were delays getting out. >> jeff guzzetti joins us as well. jeff, just pick up where ali has left off about what questions you have as an investigator. >> well, it. >> really is striking to me that. >> we have. >> yet another major airline. >> event, and this one.

>> appears to be very serious because it's flying. >> upside down. >> without its wings. >> so, you know, something. >> very traumatic. >> must have happened. and it is really a miracle that. >> there were no fatalities. fingers crossed on the. >> critically injured person. >> we hope. >> we hope these serious. >> injuries will clear up in time. but right now, nicole. >> it's really. >> just we just. >> have too many. >> questions and not enough answers. we have an. >> airplane that experienced. >> some sort of trauma. >> during landing, and to the point where its. >> entire wing. box ripped. >> off and the fuselage continued and came to. >> rest upside down. there doesn't. >> appear to be a whole lot of thermal damage or fire damage, which is a miracle because. >> those wings hold fuel. >> and fortunately they didn't. they didn't blow, it seems. so. it's just it's a miracle. with regard to the survivability. >> design of. >> the aircraft to. >> the, the 16 seats. >> that that are. >> designed not to move in a

crash like this, the seat belts. >> so it's. but it's. >> still very troubling. >> the wind was very high, as. >> captain cox indicated. >> and that may have played a role in this, but it could have been a. compounding factor with something else, perhaps an engine. >> issue or a flight. >> control issue. we just don't know. right now. >> jeff, we're we're hearing that there are now 15 people with injuries. but to your point, quite miraculous to look at this image and, and report that the injuries are more plentiful when there were 80 people on board. i just want to ask you, in terms of what you can see, what we can all see this image on our screen. if you've ever seen this before. >> yes, i've seen. >> numerous accidents, some involving smaller business jets, others involving larger transport category airplanes. for example, you had the asiana 77 seven landing at san

francisco about, oh, it must have been ten, 12 years ago where the that airplane coming into san francisco hit the seawall and began to tumble and ended up upside down, but its wings were attached here. we don't see that recently investigated an accident involving bombardier type of airplane where it left the runway for suspicious reasons. perhaps a crosswind, perhaps a nose landing gear steering problem upon touchdown that could cause an airplane to come off the runway, strike something and flip over. but it really until we see video and i'm sure there is video of this airplane making its approach. we really don't know the sequence of events here yet. >> ali velshi just jump in on on how striking it is to be covering another, potentially even more catastrophic airline incident. >> i mean, this one certainly

looks catastrophic. that's the amazing part of it, to look at this, what the pictures that we're looking at and not know that anyone has perished in this. again i want to remind everybody this is this is the bombardier crj 900 is made by bombardier. bombardier is now made by mitsubishi, but it used to be a canadian company. this plane was made in canada. they are generally speaking very safe planes unto themselves. and they are, you know, planes. passenger planes are meant to think about crashes. however, the plane went over. one of the first images you saw was fire trucks moving in because the fuel is in the wings. and when you crash a plane, if you're in a plane, one of the first things you think about is if that plane were to crash, how do you not make it also be a fire? because if anybody survives it, the thing that can really get you is the fire. so you see that it's being sprayed with foam. it was being sprayed by with foam as passengers were getting off. canada has had toronto has had a major crash many, many years

ago. it was an air france flight. everybody got off of that as well. by the way, that was remarkable. the crew did an amazing job. the flight attendants got everybody off in a common, safe fashion. so toronto has a great deal of experience with with running a safe airport. they were on it very fast. but one of the things is once that plane is upside down, you don't know what's going on. this plane came in at 150 miles an hour. that's roughly the speed at which a plane has to land. now, when there are gusting winds, the pilot, upon landing that plane in the seconds before they land, they've got to play with that, that throttle and that power and their and their steering and their rudders to keep it on track. and sometimes you have to add power and sometimes you have to take power away. it's really the most complicated part of flight. people don't think about it. it's the part where you're on your phone, you've told people you're landed, you are undoing your seatbelt. it is the most complicated part of flight. and so we're going to learn a lot because the crew seems to be alive. and i'm hoping this is the case and i'm hoping everybody's alive. we're going to learn a lot about what happened, and there will be real

lessons from this one. the question remains as to whether that airport should have been open or closed, with gusting winds and 2 to 3ft of snow without without shoveling that snow without without moving the snow out of the way, which means the banks of the runways may have had more snow than they should have. so what happened with the wings? it's hard to tell. was that because the wings clipped some snow? was that in the turnover of the airplane? we need to understand what the landing gear is. but as your other guest said, these are all compounding factors. in many cases when you're dealing with weather, weather is every pilot's enemy because it's unpredictable. it changes. it changes frequently. and as a pilot, you've got to make decisions. that's not a control tower telling you as you're coming in, they give you the weather readout. you have to fly your plane to the ground. so the idea that this plane touched down at something like 150mph and flipped over, and we have survivors. given that image you're seeing is incredible because that's a that's a serious crash, jeff.

>> the conversations people are having off of television are about seeing now, i guess a fourth day of or fourth incident in, in about 12 days. dc, pennsylvania, toronto and more. what is your sense or what is what are you saying to people privately who may be feeling anxious about getting on an airplane right now? >> i, i still think it's the safest form of travel. you're far more likely to crash in your car than you are on a commercial aircraft accident. but that said, you know, this is this is now the third. the one in philadelphia was was a was not a scheduled commercial airliner, but we had this one, which is a scheduled commercial airliner. you had the one in washington, dc, and then you had the one in nome, alaska that killed ten people. that was a scheduled airline flight to nome. and it

just a spate of commercial fatal or a spate of commercial accidents like this is very rare. it just doesn't hasn't happened in the past 15, 20 years. so i can certainly understand the heightened sensitivity that the public has with regard to commercial flying. but still, when you take into account the tens of thousands of commercial airline flights that occur each day in this country, to have something like this is still exceedingly rare. and a lot of people don't realize that most commercial airline accidents i know, not the one in dc, the collision or the or in alaska, but most major airline accidents are survivable. and just like this one was. and that is a testament to the design of the aircraft and the redundancy of the aviation system. >> i want to get the answer to that question from you as well. ali velshi, and i want to understand how the news

environment is on a pilot, but i want to share with you and jeff and our viewers the update we have about the people who have been injured in this crash and their status of being taken care of, three air ambulance helicopters and two critical care land ambulances have been dispatched from the scene. one pediatric patient that's the child we've been talking about is being transported to sick kids with critical injuries. one male patient in his 60s is being transported to saint michael's hospital in toronto with critical injuries, and one female patient in her 40s is being transported to sunnybrook health sciences center in toronto with critical injuries. so, ali, more critical injuries than we first learned. >> yeah, sick kids is the preeminent children's hospital in all of canada. it's the hospital for sick children. it's in toronto. and they would if a child is injured or sick, your

first thought is to go to sick kids. you don't even think about it. otherwise, it's quite possible that that child could be treated anywhere. but in toronto, you know, if a child needs medical care, you go to sick kids. sunnybrook is the major trauma center again in all of ontario and possibly in all of canada. if more critical patient probably went to sunnybrook. saint michael's also a trauma center. but if they've got two helicopters going out, they're going to try and land two helicopters at different hospitals as the crow flies. these are not long distances, but toronto is a very heavily trafficked city. so getting these folks on helicopters was the smartest thing to do. sick kids is downtown, so that's a little more complicated. the other thing to remember, and, you know, to the extent that people can use news about these things, the planes are designed well. keep your seatbelt on until they tell you to take your seatbelt on. how many times have we all been on planes where everyone's in a hurry to get up? people start taking their seatbelts off and you hear the crew telling everybody to please sit down, don't start reaching for your bag. the plane's pretty

safe. but if a plane goes upside down and you fall out of your seat and you hit your head, your chances of being injured are substantially higher. so, yes, aviation remains safe. if you're a pilot, there's a lot of muscle memory. i have to say, the pilots i've been talking to in the last couple of weeks are not they're not troubled by the news. in other words, pilots get up there and they fly. they know what to do. they're trained to do it. they understand that whether it's the ntsb there or the transportation safety board in canada, they'll get to the bottom of whatever happened here, and they'll institute changes to, to, to fix it. the same kinds of plane crashes don't tend to happen the same way, certainly for commercial planes. yes, we've had three in a row, but they're not the same kind of crashes at all. and they're not they're not caused by the same thing. so, you know, airplane flying is still very, very safe. these are major hubs. and you know what happens right now? people are calling the airlines to make sure their flight isn't canceled for tomorrow or what they do, so that the reaction by americans and canadians doesn't tend to actually be away from flying,

because it's so integral to the way we do things and it's so integral to our business. but yeah, sure, after you see a few of these things, you start to get a little shaky, even as a passenger on a plane to wonder, how safe is this? the planes are safe. you have to keep keep yourself as safe as you can to. but we'll figure out what happened here. the weather does seem to be increasingly an issue people are talking about because the airport like most airports, but toronto in particular, it's just one big flat field. that's the way airports are designed. it's not doesn't have other features to it. so wind has been blowing around there. so when you measure gusting winds they try and do it as accurately as possible, you know near the runways to try and establish which runway to use. but when you're a pilot and you're close to the ground and there's gusting winds and there's little wind tornadoes and there's snow banks, the wind behaves differently on your airplane than a forecast will tell you. and that's up to every pilot to try and determine how best to navigate that and manage that. and sometimes that goes wrong. >> ali velshi and jeff guzzetti,

i'm going to ask both of you to come back. just wave your arms. we'll get you right back on on camera. if you learn anything in the next hour and 45 minutes. thank you so much for jumping on the air with us and talking us through this. when we come back, we'll turn to politics and protests nationwide against elon musk and donald trump and their plans to essentially dismantle the federal government. also ahead, brand new reporting on what happened inside the department of justice as prosecutors wrestle with the demand from top trump doj officials that the criminal charges against new york city mayor eric adams be dropped. and later in the broadcast, a moment that encapsulates america's standing in the world and especially among our allies at this very moment, the united states anthem was booed at a hockey game in canada. we'll have all those stories and more when deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. >> at the “the darkness of bipolar depression made me feel like i was losing interest in the things i love.

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her guests explore how the democratic party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next. the blueprint with jen psaki. listen now. >> what we do is try to cut right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington that day. >> i think the. >> person who. >> currently occupies the white house has no business being there and. >> is making a. >> chaotic mess of our country. >> it's just ridiculous. >> that these things are going unchecked. >> hey, hey! >> ho ho! >> elon musk. >> has got to go. hey hey ho ho! elon musk has got to go. >> if you bought a mattress today, no judgment. but that is how thousands of our fellow americans decided to spend their day today. it is what is being called the not my presidents day protests. they are protesting in portland, oregon, in vancouver, washington, in orlando, in

arizona, in utah, in west virginia, holding signs that say no kings where law ends, tyranny begins. in houston chanting no one voted for elon musk. organizers say the protests are in response to, quote, the anti-democratic and illegal actions of the trump administration, including what can only be described at this point as a purge across multiple government institutions like the va, which provides health care to america's veterans, and usaid, which provides humanitarian aid all around the globe, and the department of education and the consumer financial protection bureau and the national animal health laboratory network, which in plain english, they're the people who protect us from the next bird flu or the one that's here now. but as the trump administration is learning, when you use a blunt instrument instead of a scalpel or a budget plan to suddenly and abruptly shrink government agencies, you end up kneecapping the things that are actually essential to american life and americans and

their family safety and a family's money. and you take a blowtorch to all american institutions as the trump administration is doing. people tend to rise up and protest. the other thing that happens, well, stuff usually backfires, like how it backfired when the trump administration fired nuclear safety workers whose agency oversees the nation's nuclear stockpile and then, after firing them, thought, oh, well, maybe we need those guys. they are now trying to unfire them, but they can't because they're struggling to find them because they didn't have their new contact information or the decision to fire hundreds of faa employees, just as that agency is reeling after the deadly collision at reagan national airport less than one month ago, air safety, nuclear weapons. they are at the tippy top of things that all americans, regardless of their ideological leanings, want their government to get right. they

don't want to think about those things or worry about those things. another thing at the top of the list for most humans, keeping our most personal financial information safe, which is why what's happening at the irs with our personal information, potentially banking information is sounding so many alarms for so many people. not only has the trump administration identified 15,000 employees for possible termination, but now the washington post is reporting elon musk's doge team is seeking access to, quote, a heavily guarded irs system that includes detailed financial information about every taxpayer, business and nonprofit in the country, sparking alarm within the tax agency. quote, under pressure from the white house, the irs is considering a memorandum of understanding that would give officials from doge doge dodge broad access to tax agency systems, property and data sets.

again, nuclear warheads, air travel safety for everybody getting on a plane. all of our most personal financial information. that's what they have their hands in today. let's bring in some of our favorite reporters and friends. the president of media matters for america, angelo carusone, is back. also joining us, washington post national investigative correspondent carol leonnig is back and the publisher of the bulwark, host of the focus group podcast. political strategist sarah longwell is back. carol, the post has some extraordinary reporting and really is the home paper for many of the federal workers who are impacted. this is well beyond sort of where the where the rhetoric meets the audacity of trumpism in terms of slashing and shrinking the federal workforce. this is dismantling things that have never been touched, because there's no appetite among the public for dismantling them.

>> so. right, nicole. >> i really do. >> have to give a shout out to. >> the team at the. >> washington post. >> that has been. >> drinking from this fire hose, that just an unbelievable funnel every day of tips and information and leads and indicating a host of agencies all weekend long under assault. interesting president's weekend for a bunch of people to be notified that they are likely going to be fired, or they are, or to have their laptops turned off and their email access severed. but it is an endless barrage for those federal employees. and before we start to get out the violins about civil servants and how distressing this is for people's lives, we do have to think about the public. every single agency you mentioned touches somebody's life. i've seen farmers taking to social media in a way that they have never before, complaining that this blunt instrument basically denied them their access to a conservation

agent who has helped them for decades with their farming and with their finances. and now they are, you know, out of luck. i have seen a host of people complaining about whether or not they're going to get on a regional jet because they have close friends who have been terminated, whose job is making sure that equipment and safety is, is, is paramount. and certainly at every airport, but especially in busy airports. and now people are wondering, is that going to be safe? you know, there's a more subtle thing, nicole, that you and i have talked a lot about. the more subtle is the rule of law. you know, countries that get rid of and frightened all of their career public servants at the department of justice and the fbi who investigate corruption and bribery, essentially end up with a country where bribery and corruption rules. and that's a big worry for a lot of the

people that i talk to as well. there's so much here. and the access to the irs information is, of course, worrisome because it's not a national security matter. the doj's folks have said they have all the appropriate security clearances. this is information that you only get to access if you have an operational and really workforce reason to have access to it. and the blunt instrument that's being used by doge so often has been, in fact, has been a little bit careless, as we can talk about a little bit more about the probationary employees. and so when they start to ransack through some of the most sensitive information about your financial records, your taxes, your decision making with your finances, people are reasonably, reasonably, very worried. >> i mean, carol, we do have the luxury of time, so i don't want to zip by. i think one of the most profound links that you just made, which is that every

every function that catches corruption has been eliminated. and so the people that are seizing every american's public data, and i mean, i don't know how i mean, i, i e-file, right? i don't know if i should say this on tv, but the irs has everything for everyone. they have your they have all of your personal information. they also have everyone's banking information. and this is what trump did last time in his first term. trump openly mused about sending irs agents after political opponents, leaving agency officials on edge about the irs independence. the information that the irs has is incredibly personal. someone with access to it could use it and make it public in a way, or do something with it, or share it with someone else who shares it with someone else, and your rights get violated. there are people taking all sorts of risks to be out protesting, but one of them has to be being photographed and being targeted. >> yeah, i almost feel ill equipped to go down that road

with you, nicole. but the point you made one second before about the access, it's kind of the height of irony, right? that that when donald trump's tax returns which by norm by practice, by ethical tradition, all presidents provided their tax returns to be carefully audited, to be sure that they weren't compromised in some way, or to be sure that there wasn't a problem that was lingering, they accidentally made a mistake that should be addressed. donald trump never turned in his tax returns. and indeed, i remember when we were reporting about that and the times did some great work on this. irs officials, you know, sort of scoffed at the notion that anybody other than than those selectively cleared would ever be able to see donald trump's tax returns. there was one person who had the key to them. it was the administrator, john koskinen, and he kept those returns in a safe to be sure that that person's privacy would never be violated. but it was donald trump in the last

administration, his last presidency, who mused about wanting to target people he didn't like, political enemies for audits. and in the end, though, we can't draw a clear line. very senior fbi officials were audited that he called out by name for such treatment. >> sarah longwell, there's a piece of trumpism that is so unique to trump in that his critics believe him. they take him both literally and figuratively, whatever that expression was from 2015 and 16, and his supporters don't. once his supporters, social security numbers and irs data is being pilfered through by 20 year old coders and programmers. that, too, might shift some of the terrain underneath his support. what do you see as the sort of political landscape for these moves? >> yeah, so the thing about

fallout is that it often takes some time. >> to materialize. and so right now, for a. lot of voters, this looks like. >> inside washington stuff, right? >> they don't really know what usaid does. >> you know. >> some cia. >> analysts names get. accidentally leaked and they don't. >> necessarily feel, you know, the negative personal consequences. of that. >> but eventually. >> when you're doing the kind of scale. >> of the cuts that. >> musk is doing right. >> now. >> eventually that has. >> negative personal. >> consequences for. real people. >> and you're right about the sensitivity. >> of the tax information. >> and. >> this idea. >> of. >> you know, there was. >> always even the fox news folks. >> would kind of do this. >> they're like, well, you don't. >> really mean. >> that, right? >> that you're going. >> to you're going to target. >> people like this. >> you're going. >> to seek retribution. against people. i mean, one of the quickest. >> and easiest. >> ways for donald trump to seek retribution against his political enemies, right? because a lot of these people

are billionaires with really complex financial structures, right? is to leak their tax returns, go after them. and so what he's trying to do in this, though, is, is chill civic spaces, right. make people too afraid to speak out against. >> him because. >> they're going to have access to every piece of information. they're going to have oversight over every deal that businesses want to make. and that's how they're going to keep everybody quiet and intimidate everybody into silence. but the one way, the one way you can push back against that is if the american people start to revolt. and i think one of the ways that they start to revolt is when there are negative personal consequences for them. as a result of the changes that donald trump is making, whether that whether or not that is them feeling unsafe to get on an airplane, whether it's them feeling like their personal financial info could end up leaked or on the internet or in the wrong hands. you know, i think whether it's that their farm, the things that they relied on, suddenly they're not getting it. you're seeing these things start to populate on the internet of people saying, why

didn't mean this? or i didn't think this was going to happen. you know, i was talking i was doing a focus group where we were talking about immigration. and look, there were several people in the group. these are all people who voted for trump who were like, yes, this is good mass deportations. but then there were a lot of other people who said, well, i thought he was just going to do criminals. and people who committed crimes i didn't think he was going to do. you know, my neighbor who's been here for 25 years and has been nothing but a nice person who goes to work every day. and so as that stuff percolates through society, i think you'll start to see that these things will get less and less popular with the american public. >> i mean, angela, we're back to project 2025, which was so wildly unpopular that donald trump said he had never heard of it. after deporting people in this country illegally who committed violent crimes, you have a majority of americans who oppose everything else. majority of americans oppose retribution if it means that fbi agents are purged or prosecutors are purged. and the irs. having more

reach and having more political people with more fingers in grubby hands on your personal data is almost universally opposed. what is going on? >> yeah. i mean, in project 2025 sort of teed this up. their proposal for sort of getting to where we are right now was to and the objective and that's the thing the objectives were stated pretty clearly, which was to increase the politicization of the irs so that it could be another instrument of revenge. and that's the important thing to consider here. a lot of these initial actions are as much about sort of aggregating and consolidating power as possible. but but the through line, the part that he's appealing to and it's not the majority of americans, it's the most intense, sort of fervent part of americans that have been pickled in misinformation and rage for decades. that's who he's appealing to here. that's why he announced his campaign in waco, which is a site of an attack against the government. his symbolism is to say we are going to be revenge. and so part of it is to turn the irs into that.

and what they were proposing was adding in additional political appointees into the irs. it's one of the agencies that has very few. i think it's 1 or 2. they wanted to add an additional seven, and that was to help politicize it, to sort of speed it along. and what d.o.j. provides, and that's and it provides it not in this context, but also more broadly, is essentially an accelerant for project 2025 objectives and policies. and that's that's really the difference maker here. is that something that was already going to move at breakneck speed is actually going to speed up quite a bit. and the other part that's illuminating about sort of why are the irs why this data. what's the point? you know, sarah sort of got to it about, you know, a bunch when she was talking about how it could be weaponized and deployed and as a tool to shrink civic spaces and to really understand why they were going after the irs in 2025. and now it's that it you have to look at it from the perspective of somebody that has been sitting in the right wing fever swamps for a while. and if you have been if you're a

consumer of the same kind of content trump consumes every day, what you believe is that there's a massive conspiracy by liberal billionaires of the deep state to fund protesters, to feed, to fuel the deep state attacks on you, to turn the irs into an instrument of revenge against conservatives over the past few years. and so what this is designed to do is validate those falsehoods and then operationalize them. and that's the scary part, because it's worth remembering that doge already created a dedicated account just for doge irs, and that is, they're already beginning to build social presence around it and start that conversation. that's not the end. that's the beginning. and it tells you where this could very likely go, which is the weaponization and the deployment of not only that information, but i think what's worse is sort of the narrative that that information could fuel, even if they don't release anything confidential, they could give a lot of winks and nods and use that social space to fuel it. >> all right. we're going to talk about what is happening in

the streets of our country today to push back against that, because i feel my anxiety rises when you articulate what they're doing. but i think what we see today is that people aren't so into it. there they are. no one's going anywhere. we'll one's going anywhere. we'll sneak in a quick break and tap into etsy for original and affordable home and style pieces like like lighting under 150 dollars to brighten your vibe. for under 100 dollars, put your best look forward with vintage jackets. or pick up custom shelving for under 50 to make space without emptying your pockets. and get cozy with linen robes for 75 or less. for affordable home and style finds to help you welcome whatever's next, etsy has it. when emergency strikes, first responders rely on the latest technology. that's why t-mobile created t-priority built for the 5g era. only t-priority dynamically dedicates more capacity for first responders.

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pickling in their disinformation. how do you make it so that the actual information, the facts and the truth are as politically salient and as motivating and ultimately prevail in elections? >> oh my gosh, what a question. i mean, how do we solve the whole problem of misinformation? i mean, this goes back to mark twain with his quotation about how a lie can get halfway around the world before the truth ever gets its shoes on. and we've just added jet fuel to that with social media. and donald trump is a grievance merchant. and so are the people that sort of now exist in his slipstream. i mean, you and i know coming growing up or being sort of raised up on the right in the conservative movement, that part of being like, not a victim was part of our conservative patrimony. right? we didn't think it was cool to be a victim. we thought that was something that the left

did. but the right now is steeped in victimology. right. everything is about grievance and things that are being taken away from them. and in fact, that grievance is fueling this idea that we need this retribution and that there's widespread corruption everywhere you look. i mean, right now, just in our our own instance, one of my colleagues, bill crystal, has elon musk all over him saying, you you take money from usaid. and it's simply not true. they're talking about money that you from usaid that went to one organization that went through multiple other organizations that at some point one of those organizations gave a grant to something that built it. he never he never gets no money from usaid. but tons of people on the internet believe it. elon musk continues to stoke it, even though elon musk himself is the one who gets massive federal funding, who has massive conflicts of interest.

but it is the ability for elon musk to be sort of the originator of these lies, for them to get purchased through these sort of just pockets of conspiratorial ism that live all over the internet or now live at the highest parts of our government. i mean, trying to beat them back with the truth is extraordinarily difficult. and the only thing that can be done is everybody has to speak up. i mean, one of the things i talk about this a lot on your show. i think there's a lot of democrats that tend to be late for the talking points, or try to figure out what the exact right message is. the people who are out there right now, whatever their message is, is the right one. like the idea of showing up and saying this is unacceptable to us. we as americans won't tolerate this. we think that an unelected bureaucrat, an unelected maga billionaire, having their hands on our financial info and, you know, dismantling the government. and look, nicole, you and i were

both raised on waste. fraud and abuse is a bad thing, right? we are fine. i'm fine with people looking for inefficiencies in government and trying to do something about it. that is not what's happening here. these are a bunch of people who have no idea what they're doing, just wiping out whole departments or agencies. and then not being able to put them back together when it's discovered that actually they had a critical role in something deeply important, like the american nuclear security. and so i just people have got to sort of find their spines, find their feet, find their voices, and get out there and start pushing back, because that's the only thing that's going to really make a difference right now. >> yeah. i mean, i think the answer let me see the pictures from the streets. this is the answer. no one's coming to save anybody. no one has ever planned to save anybody. not the democratic party. the media can't do it by themselves. this is the answer. this is people taking to the streets. they're not pickled in disinformation. and i think, angela, when you look at the pushback against project 2025 during the campaign, it was so successful

that donald trump distanced himself from it. that's how you know, that project 2025 and all the garbage in it is wildly unpopular, not just with the left, not just with the center, but with the maga base. they don't want this garbage either. how do you how do you shake the malaise out of the truth tellers and get them back on offense? >> i mean, here's one of the things that i. and i'm usually the doom and gloom guy. i mean, i'm usually sort of giving people a, a sort of keyhole view of just what the landscape looks like and how terrible it is. but to your question, a lot of times these days, i'm actually sort of not bright siding it, but also giving people some sense of how they could leverage their own power. because as i totally think you're right that, you know, the democratic party needs to be the opposition and the media needs to do its job and recognize that it has a role in all of this, and everybody else needs to do their own work. and that's speaking up. and to me, the one critical piece to consider is this part of the reason why they're able to accelerate their lives and their misinformation. part of the

reason, the main reason why they have narrative dominance is because they have this massive right wing media echo chamber and media operation. and then adjacent to it, it spilled out into all of these cultural spaces. so, you know, we did an analysis that looked at online subscribers of right leaning and right wing programing. it's about 400 million subscribers in aggregate. left leaning and left adjacent has maybe like 60 million. on a good day. they have like a seven times advantage, you know. and yet the thing that i remind everyone is that even with all that advantage, even with that huge imbalance, that massive head start, the election was still so close. yeah, the majority is still so thin, and it's a testament to that. what they are proposing is so deeply unpopular that they have to constantly polish it. so to me, that's the optimism. your voice does matter because that's what the one thing that will balance the scales. >> all right. we're going to keep this conversation going. the truth tellers three. my favorite truth tellers carolyn sarah longwell, thank you so much for spending time with us. angelo comes back for a second tour of duty in the next hour. coming up for us, an ultimatum

delivered over a video call to 20 people. just one hour to make up their minds. the future of the justice department, and quite possibly, the future of the rule of law in america, left in their hands. extraordinary new reporting on doj and the eric adams standoff is next. >> it's president trump's first 100 days, and rachel maddow and alex wagner will be bringing clarity to the policies being implemented. alex will be in the field reporting from the front lines. >> what issue matters to you the most? >> and rachel will be hosting five nights a week. >> important stories are going to be told through field work and frontline reporting about the consequences of government action. >> alex wagner, reporting from across the country and the across the country and the rachel maddow show (wife) saving for retirement was tough enough. (husband) and navigating markets can be challenging at times. (fisher investments) i understand. that's why at fisher investments, we keep a disciplined approach with your portfolio, helping you through the market's ups and downs. (husband) what about communication?

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him was formally filed late friday, after a number of federal prosecutors resigned in protest. and there are brand new details that have emerged in the new york times over the weekend that reveal the turmoil caused by deputy attorney general emil bove's memos and demands. the new york times reports this, quote, summoning the staff of the justice department's public integrity section friday morning, the acting deputy attorney general, emil bove. the third was matter of fact. two lawyers needed to step forward and sign a request to dismiss corruption charges against mayor eric adams of new york. bove gave them an hour to make up their minds. the nearly 20 lawyers on the video call were unnerved, aware that the decisions might eviscerate their ranks and damage the department's credibility. then one lawyer who stepped forward, per the times reporting, quote, after 30 minutes of discussion, ed sullivan, a longtime prosecutor in the section, offered to sign bove's motion. doing so would protect the other lawyers, he believed, and in

some ways, he did not have as much to lose. joining our conversation is new york times justice department correspondent glenn thrush. he's byline on some of that reporting. we read from just tell us more about this extraordinary tiktok that you guys have pieced together about what has to be one of the most dramatic chapters in recent doj history. >> well. >> the day before. >> it happened, there was a smaller zoom call. actually, it. >> was microsoft. >> teams in which the three supervisors of the public integrity unit, which is the principal public corruption investigations unit for the department of justice, an extremely important division, were summoned on to a conference call. they were actually pulled out of a bar celebrating another colleague who had been who had resigned the day before. rather than sign this document, summoned to a zoom call, asked to sign off on it. they were noncommittal. and emile bove was

apparently a lot nicer on that call. he got off. one of his subordinates, had the harder talk afterwards, and the three of those decided to resign. and one little side note is there was a fourth supervisor in that office who wasn't asked because she had just gone into labor. so she actually kind of lucked out. so that is what set up this extraordinary friday meeting, in which 20 to 24 of these line prosecutors very small, very prestigious, very important office in main justice, were summoned on to this microsoft teams call and told in far less nice terms than the day before that someone needed to sign this. and we were told, our sources told us that a bunch of these attorneys, some of whom had been in this division for five years or longer, had actually pre-written working in coordination with one another, pre-written resignation letters. that is how extreme and

extraordinary this was. and beauvais gave them an hour. and ed sullivan, a veteran with many decades of experience, decided to bite the bullet. and it was his name, along with beauvais's name that appeared on the court documents. >> what happens now to that unit? >> that's the. that's the important question. so sullivan obviously did something that his colleagues are describing as heroic. other people i've heard criticize him and said that he no one should have signed that, and they all should have resigned en masse. but you now have a division in which any attempt to investigate anyone who doesn't want it investigated, or trump doesn't want to investigate it now could face extraordinary disciplinary action or be put in a position where they're going to have to resign. we've also seen dozens of forced transfers of senior ethics and nonpartisan officials in the department over to this

as yet mythical sanctuary cities task force. so the chill is already there. it's this the public corruption unit right now is in the deep freeze. so the damage, i think, has very much already been done. >> and the way they use it is part of their proactive weaponization probably remains to be seen. glenn thrush, thank you. the reporting is incredible. thank you for joining us. up next, ominous words from donald trump that are raising fears about what the administration or his allies or even some pro-trump extremists might have in store. we'll bring might have in store. we'll bring you that ever feel like a spectator in your own life with chronic migraine? 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. in a survey, 91% of users wish they'd started sooner. so why wait? talk to your doctor. botox® effects may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away as trouble swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness

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>> afternoon, throwing it on the floor. >> and watching. everybody react. now, it. >> could it be a distraction? >> could it be. >> a diversion? >> could it be just pure entertainment? this is what the president. so he's not. >> saying the. >> president. >> there's no downside. >> hi everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. if it's an emperor. republicans want this president's day. maybe it's about time they just say that and drop any and all pretense, because donald trump sure has trump's first chief of staff there in his first term, reince priebus, dismissing what jim bowie of the new york times calls, quote, the single most un-american and anti-constitutional statement ever uttered by an american president trump this weekend, posting a quote to social media often attributed to napoleon. it reads, he who saves his country does not violate any law. perhaps more alarming than that interpretation of presidential power and its unlimited scope, is that the supreme court, in its ruling on presidential immunity last summer, has

already kind of sort of agreed with the napoleon and trump in her dissent in that case, provided with what she called a fear for our democracy, supreme court justice sonia sotomayor wrote this, quote, the relationship between the president and the people he served has shifted irrevocably in every use of presidential power. the president is now a king above the law. so it's with a keen eye that will be watching the supreme court this week as it begins the process of further clarifying what presidential power means in this country right now, in the very first case to reach the supreme court, arising from donald trump's flurry of executive actions these past few weeks, the justices will again shape the scope of presidential power in a case having to do with who trump can fire and who he cannot fire. but trump's mantra that, quote, he who saves his country does not violate any law, end quote, isn't limited to presidents. in his telling of his supporters,

for instance, believe that to be true. what stops them from doing whatever they want? just ask the january 6th rioters who find themselves back in court for other offenses, according to the wall street journal. many of them are right now arguing this quote that they should be absolved of other alleged crimes such as illegal gun possession, child pornography, things discovered during the january 6th investigations. at least one defendant has died in a postpartum altercation with police. and so that's the question now before all of us, some people have taken to the streets about it. some people are becoming more attuned to the news because they're unsettled by it. it's a question that will be evaluated over the next days and weeks and years. just how much power should donald trump really have? that's where we start the hour. some of our favorite experts and friends, the president of media matters for america, angela carusone, is back. we started this conversation in the last hour. also joining us, former

prosecutor for the southern and eastern districts of new york, barrett burger, is back with us and former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi. msnbc national security analyst frank figliuzzi is here. angela, let's pick up where we left off. people voted for trump for a myriad of reasons, but not one of them in any of the exit polling data i saw or any of the brilliant analysis provided by steve kornacki or anyone else i consumed, even on fox news said that people were down with ending the full democratic experiment and installing a king again. talk about what is exposed on trump's flanks here. >> yeah, i mean, the big issue is that a lot of people voted for him for the vibes, not his core supporters. they voted for something that they wanted. they voted for this type of destruction and revenge. that is that is the core. that is the base upon which he sort of, you know, projected out this political power. but the way that he sort of got one right is

he built political power on what used to be considered the fringes. so he brought in a bunch of these fringe figures, and now they're going to have to do a series of actions to be responsive to the people that they brought in. the scary part is, you noted in your intro, is that they started out with with a really clear message and guidance, which is that we got your back. as long as you're doing things in line in support of donald trump and in some way, shape or form, you will not be held accountable for it. that's partly why those pardons are so uncomfortable and scary, not just for the lack of justice, but for what they meant for the future. so that's, that is that is sort of the context, the challenge here is that one of the, the, the strategies and the tactic is that all those people that didn't like it and voted for it anyway, because they didn't really think these policies were real, and reince previous in the play, is still a victim of this. they say, well, don't believe all the things he says, even though every time he says something, he goes ahead and sort of acts in accordance with it. just trust your gut. of course, that's absurd and ridiculous. he would never do

such things. that's what a lot of people, you know, rationalize when they made this vote. but they were plain as day. this is not the first trump time, this the first time administration, this is the second. and that lack of popularity is both both a source of strength and opportunity going forward for preserving our democratic structures. but it's a real weakness. it's a real vulnerability. because the reality is, is that by scaring everybody, by projecting this kind of power and that right now is not, in fact, there, it's still up for grabs. it's just trying to project a perception of it. we can choose to either validate it and make it so, or we can take the necessary actions to connect the dots to the harms, stiffen our spines, speak up and speak to the very people that you identified that didn't really want this. they're there along with all of us are going to be the source of our democratic resilience. and that's what this is about. this is about scaring everybody into submission. heroes are heroes for a reason, because most people, when they're confronted duck and cover, and what they're trying to do right now is not just shift the vibes, but to get all those people that held their

nose or voted for trump for a myriad of reasons, as you noted, to now be stuck. and that's that's we're at a critical juncture. >> i mean, frank, the, the most basic reading of a slide toward autocracy deploys despair and hopelessness. and one of the things about reince priebus that i thought watching him talk is he is known to have been one of the biggest leakers, calling trump crazy, saying all sorts of things about his colleagues and about donald trump. and i jotted down while he was talking, i jotted down a quick list of the things that people have said publicly about donald trump. he's a demonic force, said tucker carlson. he's america's hitler, said jd vance. he's a, quote, despicable human, said mitch mcconnell. january 6th was an act of domestic terrorism, said ted cruz. the people carrying out the enforcement of whatever trump is saying are all hypocritical in that they've said worse things about donald trump than anyone in this

program has ever said. >> yeah, we're. >> watching exhibit a. >> for. >> an un. desire for. >> power and influence and relevancy. >> that's who. >> surrounds donald. >> trump right now. people who. >> literally can't get another job without kissing his rear end. >> and this race. >> priebus clip that you played. nicole. nothing to see here. as angela said, don't worry. remain calm. he occasionally likes to take a. grenade out and throw it on the floor to. >> see what happens. >> i'll tell you what. happens when you play with a live grenade and toss it on the floor. eventually it explodes, and the only question. for us is whether it's going to explode back on. >> trump or explode. >> and hurt the rest of us. and my money is on both. >> by the way. >> people are going. >> to get. >> hurt and eventually it will blow back. on trump. and then, you know, with regard to this

statement, which again, we shall not believe reince priebus when he says, don't worry that someone who saves his country cannot violate. >> a law. >> okay? it's been attributed by some historians who aren't certain to napoleon, but i'll tell you where. it's definitely been used far more recently. and that's with a white supremacist, far right extremist named anders breivik in norway, who killed 77 people in norway. the worst modern mass murder in norwegian history, including a mass murder. two separate incidents by him on the same day, including a mass murder at a kids camp in. >> in norway. >> and he's the one who describes himself as a neo-nazi who's used that statement more recently in history. and now our president is quoting that white supremacist, neo-nazi murderer. if you voted for that, you you really need to question whether you're american anymore. but

that's who's using that kind of statement. and listen, does trump sit and read norwegian history? hell no. someone is handing him this story, this quote, and we need to figure out who keeps spoon feeding him the white supremacy, white terrorist philosophy. >> frank, i need you to say more about why you believe it isn't emanating from trump himself. who told the proud boys to, quote, stand back and stand by? >> i think he's getting instructions. look, this is a guy by by all descriptions. doesn't read the intelligence briefers from his past administration at cia, fbi. they told all of us he can't read. we have to show him pictures of the morning pdb. he's not interested in history. there's a more recent report where he he loves watching guerrillas fight on animal programs all day. he's this guy is not reading history.

he's someone is feeding him this stuff. and whether it's elon musk or or steve bannon or miller or all of them, i don't know. but this is a man who's being wound up and let go by other people. >> one of the institutions still structurally available, i guess, is the best way to put it. to serve as a check on him is the united states supreme court again, just by design? we'll see if they do. barrett. let me read the times reporting on the first test for them. quote, in the first case to reach the supreme court, arising from the blitz of actions taken in the early weeks of the new administration, lawyers for president trump asked the justices on sunday to let him fire a government lawyer who leads a watchdog agency. the administration's emergency application asked the court to vacate a federal trial judge's order, temporarily reinstating hampton dellinger, the head of the office of special counsel.

mr. dellinger leads an independent agency charged with safeguarding government whistleblowers and enforcing certain ethics laws. the position is unrelated to special counsels appointed by the justice department. barrett. just give us the legal analysis of what both sides will argue and what we believe the supreme court to be sort of inclined to do. >> yeah. so right now. >> the. posture of. this is the supreme court is. >> reviewing, ultimately a temporary order that the district court entered. so this temporary order said that basically the trump administration would not be able to dismiss the special counsel for. >> at least two weeks. >> that went up to the d.c. appeals court. and in a 2 to 1 decision, the appellate court said, you know, we are going to uphold this temporary order for right now. you can't dismiss this person for at least two weeks because these temporary orders are typically not appealable. so that's the

specific issue. that's actually before the court right now. it's not clear whether the court will actually reach the merits of this ultimate case. but if they don't right now, certainly they will later, or in one of the myriad other cases that are going to deal with this. and really, i mean, while this specific issue is about sort of the appealability of this order, ultimately this is about executive power. this is sort of a broader legal dispute that the administrative that the administration has been pushing and will continue to push about whether the president has ultimate control over the executive branch. he's really fighting back against, you know, regulations from congress that would limit that, that would set up independent federal agencies that could help, you know, hold people accountable for misconduct or ethical breaches. and this is really going to be the central fight before the supreme court is how much power does the executive have and how much is that going to be limited

by congress? how much can we actually push back on just this decades long precedent of congress being able to have limitations and being able to have things like independent watchdogs? and that's really where this fight is going to be right now. >> and barrett, everything that i think people who are not sort of trained legal beagles watching this court suggest that they are inclined to side with the all powerful executive. is that a fair? is that is that a fair, anticipatory place to be anxious? >> i think it is a fair place to be anxious. i mean, look, just at its core, it is really scary to lose independent watchdog agencies. it's scary to lose inspectors general. it's scary to lose any kind of accountability. we've seen this even, you know, on a smaller scale with what we just saw happening in the mayor adams case, right. this idea that the executive has this ultimate power to step in and say, i don't like this, i'm going to enforce it, you know, doing away

with whether it's, you know, regulations from congress, norms of an agency, precedent from court. we really see this sort of, you know, storming through the door saying the executive branch and me as the president, now i have ultimate power to do this. will the supreme court support this? i think it's likely, but i don't know that it will be in this specific posture with this dellinger case, simply because it is really dealing with a more procedural issue. but if it's not this, it's going to be the next battle or the next inspector general, the next agency head that was fired, that's bringing this challenge to the court. so i, i'm not entirely hopeful that they will not support some sort of limitation on that. >> angelo, this gets back to the conversation we were having in the last hour. i mean, where the supreme court has sided with trump are some of the most unpopular decisions the supreme court has made in its history. and all of the post-watergate things that are in our system are some of the most popular things that the federal

government has ever done. i wonder again, if you go back to what the hard core base has been pickled in and you sort of place it against what is wildly unpopular with the general public, including republican voters, including people who voted for donald trump, ostensibly for change and annihilating all of the post-watergate reforms is high on that list. >> yeah, i mean, that that is that is one of the defining characteristics of project 2025. but some of the key figures that came in was vote being, you know, principal among them, which is that we need to reset on all the post-watergate norms and that a lot of these things and again, we say norms instead of laws, because a lot of what we're talking about here, some of these things are, are laws and practices, but a lot of the stuff that they really want to target and that they're targeting first is are the norms that basically sort of a new way of saying, okay, that's the way we're going to operate, you know, and that that's that's just how it's going to be. it's a better way to function. it's sort of like, you know, not

screaming when the elevator door closes. there's no law that says you shouldn't scream when you're in a crowded elevator, but it's not nice. and most people would find it appalling and we just don't do it, you know? i mean, that's just it's kind of a norm. it's a basic one, but it is. and there's a lot of those. that's how we all kind of function. they want those all gone. and to me, the revealing part here is, you know, when you think about it from the supreme court perspective, and this also ties into what we were talking about earlier with the irs. you know, the supreme court can be a laggard or a vanguard when it comes to establishing sort of, you know, order and laws and interpretations of it. they can they can drive social change, which is very rare, but they can do it in monumental instances. and we remember those supreme courts that do it. they can also be a laggard, meaning everything else kind of changes around them. and they just kind of finally enshrine it. what we haven't really seen before is a supreme court that's a vanguard for centralizing power and rolling back so much progress in this way. it's very rare. and usually they get dinged for that when they do take those actions and where it ties in with this irs stuff and what we're seeing

online and the sort of the right wing rage is that there is a consistent and persistent attack on judges right now that do even the most basic thing that could be perceived as anti-trump or thwarting the trump's agenda or putting speed bumps in even. it's an entirely, you know, benign. they are ripping them apart on x and on social media. they're digging through their files, they're digging through their family members, and they're creating sort of this larger cloud around them, which is designed to work the heads of the individual judges. but it's also in the minds of the supreme court, because when you start to think about it, you say, gosh, we really need to be careful here, that we don't step too far in one direction or the other. we certainly don't want to aggravate the trump base. this may not be the best time. you know, we should probably hold off until i'm worried that that part of that working of the refs landscape is going to further poison the well and incentivize them to be vanguards in helping reestablish and reassert this sort of concept of a unitary executive and just accelerate the removal of so many of the norms that have really been helping preserve a lot of our basic civic and democratic

functions. >> frank, i have to come back to you about something that you said. i have seen all the reporting on the pdb. i think sue gordon has made clear that delivering a chief executive information however they want it is how the intelligence community views their job. i have not seen the reporting about what he is consuming. can you shed some light on your sources there? >> it's been. >> reported on. >> social media. i want to emphasize it's not confirmed by nbc news, but there are a couple of outlets on social media saying that, particularly in his previous term of office, he he asked reportedly, reportedly, he asked where the gorilla channel was and they no one knew what he was talking about and they end up rigging. it turned out to be a mishmash of, you know, animal related networks and shows. so they rigged something up for him so that they could show him gorillas fighting with each other whenever he wanted to on demand. so they essentially created their own on demand, you know, animal shows for him to

watch. but the key, the key here is that this is not someone who i believe is capable of ingesting and studying and analyzing, even authoritarian neo-nazi leaders and terrorists throughout time. i think someone is or some people are handing him this kind of ideology that i don't think he's capable of developing on his own. >> i think that we benefit from all sorts of the former national security folks who are willing to come out and talk about how challenging it is to keep his focus and attention on traditional national security norms. but i do have to share what my staff has shared with me that the gorilla reporting is a fake internet meme, that we don't have any evidence in any corroborated news account about the specific piece about gorillas fighting. so, frank, thank you for letting me come back to that and offer that fact

check based on our understanding. and we stay available of any any news reports do bear that out. we'd be the first folks interested in in taking any verified reporting on that front. angela barrett and frank, thank you so much for starting us off today. when we come back, suffice to say, our allies are deeply rattled and holding an emergency meeting today because of it in paris as they fear the us under this new administration, is now an unreliable partner on the world stage. plus, as we near the three year anniversary of the start of the war in ukraine, someone we've all come to know and trust and care deeply about, our friend igor novikov, will join us on the concerns of a nation as donald trump publicly cozies up to vladimir putin. and if that wasn't enough, on the global tension front, boos from our ally to the north during the singing of america's national anthem during a hockey game over the weekend, the then white the weekend, the then white house continues after a quick (vo) what happens when one of the most famous dunkers of all

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(800) 403-7539. president trump's first 100 days. watch. >> i'm going to be. >> here five days a. >> week again. >> read and listen. >> staying up half the night reading executive. >> orders for this defining time in the second trump presidency. stay with msnbc. >> what we do is try to cut right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington that day. >> you had a message. >> to. >> vice president vance about the potential implications. >> of pulling. >> out of nato. what was your message to the vice president? >> that that will be destroying of nato. >> if the united. >> states. >> pulls out of nato? russia will occupy europe, yes. >> not all. not all the europe. i don't know. they will want 30% of europe 50. i don't know. nobody knows. but they will have this possibility. >> grave and important warning from president zelensky of

ukraine that he fears russia could attack nato countries. if donald trump pulls the united states out of the nato alliance. while in paris today, european leaders held an emergency meeting concerned about the future of their own security as well as ukraine's. following a shocking, angry and threatening debut in europe last week on the part of vice president jd vance and defense secretary pete hegseth that did not ease any of our allies concerns. leaders in europe are closely watching how trump is approaching the high stakes talks about the end of russia's war against ukraine. concern that negotiations are starting tomorrow between u.s. and russian officials. without our friend and ally ukraine at the table. joining our conversation is washington post national security reporter john hudson and former u.s. ambassador to ukraine bill taylor. john hudson, take me through the weekend reporting, which is alarming to say the least.

>> yeah, it was a. >> very interesting case study. of mixed messages coming from the trump administration. you started out you have this large summit in munich, really the most important security conference of the year in the heart of europe, where you had trump's envoy for ukraine coming in and really deriding sort of the history of european involvement in the ukraine crisis, saying essentially that the europeans did a terrible job when it came to negotiating peace with the russians and the ukrainians. during the post 2015 conflict, and that the americans were going to be taking the driver's seat. then you had the announcement that they were going to have the first u.s. russian meeting over the war in ukraine happening in saudi arabia. and neither the europeans nor the ukrainians knew very much about it at all and felt totally left out. and it perpetuated a feeling of

extreme anxiety among the europeans and the ukrainians that they were being left out. playing sort of the cleanup job with secretary of state marco rubio, who is saying, of course, like any process will include the europeans. it will include the ukrainians. but there is no process. and so we just have to get this off the ground. that's what triggered the french trying to get all of the europeans on the same page. and a real feeling that they are going to really have to take care of their own security in a way that they haven't been accustomed to, because they've typically been very accustomed to having the united states really in the driver's seat. >> ambassador taylor, what are you hearing from colleagues and associates and friends around the world that you've known throughout your career? >> we're hearing. >> a lot. >> from, in particular, the

ukrainians, that. >> they need. >> security guarantees. >> they would. >> like to be a. >> member of nato. >> that's the ultimate. >> security guarantee. >> in their view. and i my own view. >> is they're right. >> that's going to be difficult. >> as we know. >> so they're looking at other ways for. security guarantees. >> and these are. >> probably going to come from some. combination of european nations. and the. >> french have. >> stepped up and the brits have stepped up. >> yesterday to. >> suggest that. >> they would be willing. >> the brits and the. >> french and probably. >> others. >> other europeans. >> be willing to provide security guarantees to the ukrainians. >> and even. >> the form of putting troops. >> on the ground. >> but the key message, their. >> goal is the. >> security guarantee. is going. >> to be necessary. for these. >> negotiations, for these cease fire. discussions that may start. >> tomorrow in. >> saudi arabia. >> john, i know i went back and looked at trump 1.0 reporting, and it was clear that folks like john bolton and general kelly

and dina powell and h.r. mcmaster were trying to teach trump the history of nato, that america is the only country to ever actually draw out, to use trumpian terms from the bank of article five were the only ones to ever ask our allies to stand with us after we were attacked. is that sort of education even happening this time? >> absolutely not. you have a completely different situation now where you have a number of cabinet members, some who really don't have that different of views than bolton had, than pompeo had. but they know that they those gentlemen fought battles with the president and those gentlemen lost. they got fired in some cases. they lost their security clearances while facing threats from the intelligence community in the case of bolton and pompeo, and they have no interest in fighting those fights again. they wouldn't have signed up to

be in trump's cabinet were that not the case. and so they are now mindful that trump has this deep and profound skepticism of nato. and they want to work and tiptoe around that rather than trying to change the president's mind, change his understanding, give him a different sense of the traditional role that the united states takes with nato, which is. yeah, the united states has been accepting that there are going to be costs that come with being the leader of nato. there's going to be european countries that don't spend enough on their own security, but ultimately, it's worth those, you know, costs to be the leader of the free world, to be the leader of the west. trump doesn't accept that premise. trump's view is that these allies are sap on the united states, and it's time to reevaluate all of these relationships and get more out of it in very material terms. >> ambassador taylor. i think

that if teaching trump the importance and the history of nato, that america is really the country that has benefited from article five is a lost cause at this point, i think that's a tragedy. but i wonder if the history of neville chamberlain is more instructive that appeasement is for losers and weaklings. i mean, what what is what is sort of the hail mary at this point to keep america from decimating its most important alliance? >> well, i think you're right. >> i think the. >> parallels to 1938 have been coming. >> up. >> all weekend. and the idea. >> of. >> appeasement and weakness and sacrificing. these nations, whether. >> it's czechoslovakia. >> or ukraine. >> those those. >> come. >> up in too many conversations. >> and i. >> think it is also true what you. >> said that is. >> president trump does. >> not want. >> to be a loser. >> president trump wants. >> to be. >> a winner. in order.

>> to do that, he. needs to. >> show strength. >> and he. >> needs to lean. >> on putin. >> he can. >> bring putin to. >> the table. >> that's apparently what he's. >> able to do. he's bringing putin to the table. >> that's showing strength. >> and that. >> would be a. >> winner if he can. if he can dominate putin. >> john hudson, thank you for your reporting on this really extraordinary moment. ambassador taylor, we're going to ask you to stick around a little bit longer after the break, as we've been discussing ukraine's sovereignty, hanging in the balance as well as the u.s. and russia are set to meet tomorrow without our democratic ally at the table, our friend and ally, igor novikov, will join our conversation and weigh in on that next. stay with us. >> i feel like new sunglasses, like a brand new pair of jeans. like a brand new pair of jeans. i feel a lot. brand new. oh.

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slim design, try it out for 99 days. risk free. >> let me bring in to our conversation our friend, former adviser to president zelensky, igor novikov. ambassador bill taylor is still with us. igor, first let me get you on the news and the pressing issues of the day, and then we have to save a moment to hear an update from from you and how you're doing. just weigh in on all of it. >> well. >> nicole, i actually disagree. i mean, you've discussed 1938. >> and neville chamberlain. >> i think the situation at the moment is hauntingly reminiscent of 1939. >> and the. >> molotov-ribbentrop pact. >> you know, when. >> nazi germany and the soviets carved up poland. but having said that, you know me. i'm a bit of an optimist. always. i

mean, what's there left for us? right? so i think, to be honest, my focus at the moment is not on how this war ends and what the borders look like, but what happens after the guns stop firing. because there are two possible scenarios if ukraine. whatever's left of ukraine after, you know, after. after everything, if that country is left alone at russia's mercy, you know, we just going to see the repetition of history. now, if ukraine is rebuilt, integrated into the western society, if ukraine is allowed to kind of develop as a fully sovereign nation, then i think that's a victory. that's a postponed victory. so that's the most important bit at the moment. >> let me play a little bit more of president zelensky's interview and ask both of you to sort of push beyond and help our viewers understand how precise president zelensky's being with his language. this is the president answering a question

about whether or not putin is even capable of negotiating in good faith. >> is putin. capable of negotiating in good faith? >> no. >> no, it's not about good faith. no no no no no no no no. yes. you just can't block his motivation to put him in such strong circumstances when he can't begin the new invasion. reinnervation. but he wants. you will see. everybody will see. he will. he will try to begin something new. >> ambassador taylor, i'm going to ask you to sort of pull the curtain back on what he's warning us about there. >> well, i think president's. >> right, nicole. >> i think that. >> that president. >> putin, as. >> well as other. >> russian negotiators. >> they see negotiations not.

>> as a way to solve problems. it's a way to win. >> it's a. >> way for them to. do and putin to do what he's been trying to do for years and years, certainly since 2014, probably earlier than that. that is dominate ukraine. he wants to dominate ukraine. and if by going to negotiations that gets him there, that's fine. that's what he will do. that's what he tried to do in the minsk negotiations earlier on and he failed. and so he had to take the next step, which was to invade. and there he failed. but so now he's going to try to do in negotiations what he's not been able to do otherwise. and that's to dominate ukraine one way or the other. >> igor, one of the things that i think you and president zelensky have understood pretty expertly is how to communicate with the world and with the americans about what's on the line here. and that feels like a pretty important piece of where

things stand now. what is, in the simplest terms, on the line for ukraine and the west right now? >> well, everything. >> the simple answer is everything. because we're at the moment, i would say, in the position where putin actually wanted the world to be by 2025. and that's disturbing. now, is there a way out of it? definitely. i fully agree with president zelensky. there's no point in, you know, sincerely negotiating with putin because. he's pretty much got a plan. and the only way to kind of to make a deal with him, at least a temporary one, is to proverbially handcuff him to the door and then speak with him because he's not going to stop. but there's another lesson in history that i think we need to remember. there was a country up until 1975 called south vietnam. that's a country where america is effectively paid the ultimate

price. i mean, many americans died there. then there was a lot of military aid. and then sooner or later it all died down. and by 1975, that war was lost. and now, a few decades later, we have american presidents actually taking photos and the portraits. and the lesson here is history doesn't work in absolutes. history doesn't stop for anyone. it's the question of what's going to happen to ukraine and to the west tomorrow. we shouldn't talk about what's happening today. we need to prepare for tomorrow, and that's important. >> ambassador taylor, who around trump thinks that way? >> so i think you're hearing, as you indicated, the various messages coming out of the new administration, but the secretary of state, marco rubio, has indicated that the goal here is an independent, sovereign ukraine. and he was exactly right. that's got to be the

goal. it has to be a sovereign nation, a ideally a prosperous nation, ideally in the european union. i would say ideally in nato, that message is coming. the message, not the nato message, but the message that that ukraine needs to be sovereign is coming out from marco rubio. so i think that's that's important. >> we are, i think, hoping for the best. but it is clear and i detect from both of you who i've had the privilege of speaking to a lot, that that there's definitely an element of preparing for the worst. on that note, i'm going to ask you to stick around. a chorus of boos could be heard ringing out from one of our closest allies during the singing of the star spangled banner at a hockey game over the weekend. what is to come of our position and our standing in the world? as all of this plays out with the highest of possible stakes for ukraine and us. don't go anywhere. >> all of this can. >> be overwhelming, but it is

important to remember there. are still. >> checks and balances. >> there's a lot being thrown at the american people right now, and. >> it is really important. >> to pay attention to it, but it is just as important to recognize how many of those things are getting announced. but they're not happening at all, or at least not yet. just try to remember we are not looking at the final score. we are still in the first quarter. keep your pads on. the game has just begun. >> i'm sure you're wondering. >> why your mother and i asked. >> you here tonight. >> it's because it's a buffet of all you can eat. butterfly shrimp and sirloin steak. >> yeah, that's the. >> reason i don't get it. >> reason i don't get it. >> do you have we shall overcome. we shall overcome. the struggle for equal rights in the united states has been hard fought, but even today, we're still fighting for racial justice,

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did so during the entirety of the performance of our national anthem, with prime minister justin trudeau in the crowd. it's a telling moment about where we are with one of our closest allies. after repeated attacks on canada by america's president donald trump, we're back with igor and ambassador taylor. i played that because i think it's important for people to understand at this moment how we're seeing around the world and to understand the powers of people, of ordinary people, of soft power. and i want to ask you, i want to pull on this thread, as painful as it might be with you, ambassador. first, what can americans do who don't like the optics of our friend and ally? i mean, i think ukraine and president zelensky and people like igor remain more popular than any political party or figure in our country right now as we sit here today. and if people don't like what it sounds like, ambassador taylor for our friend and ally ukraine not to be at the table while america

and russia hash out this little massive thing in human history, this war in ukraine. what can people do with their soft power? >> so soft power is important and allies are important. the canadians and the europeans are important, not just in europe, not just to help defend and help ukraine win this, this war. at least stop the russians in ukraine. allies are important. soft power is important. in order to do that. recognizing that the real enemy is not just russia. it's not just china. it's the combination of the two that emphasizes even more the importan having alliances and the ability for the united states to lead alliances depends on that soft power that you're talking about, its commitment to values that people respect and people share. so that that's really important. if we're going

to confront and then and, and prevail against both the russians and the chinese. >> so, igor, i show that because the meeting, the planned meeting in saudi arabia leaves ukraine not at the table. and as someone again, who who viewers of this program have come to know, not just as a political figure, but as a person with a family and a life and a country that has been under siege, constant siege by russia. i wonder what your message is to our viewers. >> well, nicole, since you've used know me quite well, i'm going to draw on the personal. parallel here. my personal situation has changed somewhat as well. it's me and masha now. i'm a single dad. my wife and my stepdaughter have left. and it turned out that i have. >> been married for. >> ten years to a malignant narcissist clinically clinically

diagnosed. and i can draw a parallel from what it's like having that relationship. you know what a narcissist would do? they would try and rid you of any meaningful relationship or alliance that you have. and that's the first and most important step. keep those alliances. if your politicians cannot do that, that do it yourselves. you know, build those bridges and keep kind of believing that, you know, change is coming because change is always coming. and, you know, we're here not because we're the smartest or the fittest or anything. we're here because we're adaptable. and all you need to do is just adapt to use that soft power to keep your allies, at least, you know, on the interpersonal level. and then, trust me, sooner or later, any narcissistic relationship, any toxicity goes away. and it's where you want. it's all about where you want to be when that ends. so that's kind of advice for me. i'm happy because, you know, i have my five year old sleeping in the next room. and, you know, that's everything i could have asked for from life.

>> igor, we're thinking about you. our viewers are always thinking about you and asking for you. and i think we're all the better angels in this country. thinking about ukraine in these really high stakes moments in negotiations. igor and ambassador bill taylor will continue to call on both of you. thank you. another break for us. we'll be right back. >> i told you. >> i don't. need these anymore. >> i have sling. >> okay. >> morning. i only. >> let sling deliver the news. i need to stay informed. thank you very much. >> nice one. nope. sling gives us all the news we want in a quick and reliable manner. >> and at a wonderful price. >> this critical time calls for the critical news coverage that sling provides. >> okay. >> see you tomorrow. >> the most. >> important news at the best price. sling lets you do that. >> and, doug. >> you'll be back. emus can't help. >> people customize and save

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