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week at 9 p.m. eastern. but now, lucky you, it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening. >> good evening. rachel. >> you know, when i. >> first moved to new york. >> i couldn't. >> afford much. >> and so. >> i had. >> two roommates. >> i managed. to squeeze in. >> to a triple. it was a two bedroom apartment. >> someone was living in. >> the living room. >> i was. >> in one. >> of the bedrooms. >> someone else was. >> in one of the bedrooms. >> one of those. >> roommates has been on this show a couple. >> of. times over. >> the last. >> ten years. >> or so, and i have never identified him. >> because i don't want. him to suffer guilt by association. he's a very. important reporter. >> at america's most. >> important newspaper. >> but tonight. >> another one of those roommates is. >> going to be on the show. and i'm not going to. >> i don't want. >> to identify.

>> that person either. i will just say it's not. >> amy klobuchar. >> she she's. >> the she's our. >> first guest tonight. and i just want to. >> completely seal. >> her. >> off from any. possible guilt. >> by association. >> on that. are you are you going to reveal the which which of your other guests was your roommate? >> no, that's that's all i'm. >> saying about it. >> and also, rachel. in just the greatest. >> book launch. timing in history. >> susan morrison is here with her new. >> book, lorne. >> about lorne michaels. >> the tv wizard who created. >> saturday night. >> live. >> has kept it going in this. >> very building for. >> 50 years. the book is. >> just fantastic. it's a. >> revelation in. >> so many ways. it's a wonderful. cultural history of. >> not. just the. >> last 50. >> years. >> but about. >> 70 years because. >> it reaches back. >> into 1950s television. >> it's a north american. >> cultural history. >> because it very.

>> much. >> includes canada, where. >> lorne michaels. >> is from. >> all right. >> and it's. >> just it's. >> just a. >> wonderful thing. >> to be. >> reading in this moment. >> of genuine and deserved celebration of saturday night live. >> and it's just a. >> fantastic book. >> and that's. going to be. >> the final discussion we. >> have on this program tonight. >> if you if you keep going along these lines, eventually they're going to have brad pitt play you on saturday night live. you realize you like it's like who gets to play you. it's like the it's kind of the message sometimes. >> i i've been spared. you have. not been spared. >> that treatment. >> for a couple. >> of reasons. >> one, you're a giant star. >> i've been spared. >> that that that treatment. >> for two reasons. >> one. >> i'm completely. >> ignorable and two. >> for from the. >> virtual start of the. >> show, i have had friends on the. >> writing staff. >> of that show. >> who? >> who, if necessary, which it never was. >> you know, would have protected. >> me. probably from that. >> i'm so i'm just i mean that just peek behind the curtain

here. so your when you were living in new york and didn't have any money you like squeezed in with roommates, one of whom ends up being a huge deal reporter for i'm guessing the new york times. i didn't say that. >> and you didn't. >> say what? >> you didn't say that. but i'm just reading between the lines. and then you have the friends who are writing for snl. like, i, too, when i first moved to the city, san francisco, in my case, also lived in an illegal rental where we crammed people into the living room. but all of my roommates were strippers and bartenders and have gone on to be like, older strippers and bartenders. and i don't know anybody who it's. >> for. >> saturday night live. >> no. >> well. >> you know. >> i will say we have an insider outsider kind of vibe going on here. >> no one. i'll say this, i am sure of this in the in the 50. >> years. >> of saturday. >> night live, over the years, beginning in. >> the very. >> first years. >> starting around. >> the second. >> or third year of the. >> show, no one ate more free food. >> at saturday. >> night live after parties than i did, and no one was more dependent on it. no one.

>> c and i was getting free beer at strip clubs. pretty much. we've had completely parallel lives. >> we're the same person. >> we're the same person. thank you. we have to go before we get in trouble. goodbye. >> thank you. rachel. >> thank you. >> well, the. >> breaking news tonight is that elon. musk is. now inside social security. >> and so for the first. >> time in american history. >> social security payments are not guaranteed. >> since the delivery. >> of the first. social security. >> check in 1942. >> the first social security. >> recipient item, a. fuller social security checks have never been a day late or. >> a dollar short, not once. >> but elon musk's illegal specialty when he takes over agencies of the federal government is to stop payments. and so the 71 million people who receive social. security payments every month. >> for the. >> first time in history can no longer be sure if the. >> next payment is coming.

>> michelle king was the acting commissioner of. >> social security. >> until either yesterday or today. rumors started reaching me early this afternoon from people with expert knowledge of the workings of social security that the musk coo at social security was under way. there is a line of succession for acting commissioners of social security. when a commissioner of social security leaves office before a new commissioner has been confirmed by the senate, then the deputy commissioner shall be the acting commissioner according to that written line of succession. and that is exactly how michelle king, who has been with the social security administration since 1994, took office. but one, michelle king, was forced out of that office. the line of succession was violated, and donald trump appointed another social security employee, leland dudek, as the acting commissioner of social security. after leland dudek posted favorable comments about elon musk's so-called department of

government efficiency on social media. leland dudek was a senior advisor at social security for the office of program integrity. that means he was an it guy. the it guy is now the acting commissioner of social security, the single biggest item in the federal budget, way bigger than the defense department. there was no reason to believe that this day could ever come. yes, republicans opposed the creation of social security in 1935 by president franklin delano roosevelt, following the design for the program created by the first woman member of the cabinet, secretary of labor frances perkins, republicans insisted that it was out of control, socialism and unconstitutional. frances perkins designed the social security system with its dedicated tax payroll tax funding directly from our

workers paychecks in such a way that once it was enacted and in place, franklin roosevelt said, quote, no damn politician can ever scrap my social security program. democrats had overwhelming majorities in the house and the senate in 1935, and could pass the social security act without republican support. but when the final votes came, several republicans in the house and the senate then joined democrats when they saw how popular social security was even before it existed. the first republican president elected after the creation of social security, former general dwight d eisenhower, who conquered germany in world war two, said at the end of the second year of his presidency, 14 years after the first social security check was issued. in a letter to his brother, quote, should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance

and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. in that same letter, president eisenhower referred to some rich right wing republicans who wanted to end social security in the 1950s. he called them a tiny splinter group and said their number is negligible and they are stupid. they are stupid. that is the clear wisdom of dwight d eisenhower speaking from the grave about what is happening at social security tonight and the person who is doing it, elon musk. 58,000 people work at social security. only 58,000 people. that is a hyper efficient agency that is approximately one worker at social security for each million

people who receive benefits from social security. that means that those 58,000 people are also processing and crediting the tax payments of 170 million workers every week in this country. there is no entity in the history of private enterprise that is as efficient as the social security administration. with its 58,000 employees, donald trump promised in the presidential campaign that he would not cut social security. but elon musk did not make that promise. elon musk has no other mission in the government other than cutting payments, and now he's inside social security. franklin delano roosevelt was right. no damn politician could ever scrap his social security program. but elon musk is not a damn politician. elon musk isn't worried about whether he'll get reelected. elon musk isn't worried about the future of the republican party, and elon musk doesn't know what social security actually is. he doesn't

know what it actually does. and his appearance in the oval office last week dominating the president, speaking twice as long as the president. elon musk lied about social security. elon musk did not say one true thing about social security in the oval office. elon musk told the lie that he found current recipients of social security who were born 150 years ago, in 1875. that was a lie, which is why he has not produced the name of any of those 150 year old social security recipients. later, social security experts explained that the date 1875 was used in the original computer software at social security as a placeholder for missing birth dates. that year was deliberately picked at the time for a variety of reasons, including that obviously no payments would be approved with the year 1875 identifying a social security file. elon musk has not said another word about the 150 year olds, because that's the way he conducts his raids on public information and public truth. he tells his lie.

it gets proven to be a lie, and then he never mentions it again. i told you it was a lie. the night elon musk said it in the oval office, most elon musk followers only hear the first lie. it doesn't get more serious than this. elon musk inside social security, elon musk inside the internal revenue service is also very bad. elon musk inside the internal revenue service was the worst thing we knew about what elon musk was doing before today when he got inside social security. the internal revenue service is also one of the hyper efficient federal government agencies. by far, it is the agency which makes money for the federal government. the truth is, the irs costs zero. in reality, it costs zero. it has an annual budget of $12.3 billion, but it collects annual revenue of $5.3 trillion, the most revenue collected in the world. every

single federal worker at the internal revenue service is making a profit, a huge profit for the united states of americ. in dollar terms alone, irs workers are by far the most valuable workers in the government. but the fewer people who work at the irs, the harder it is to enforce tax law. and so elon musk, who already has a lower income tax rate than your average doctor, wants to make sure that the internal revenue service cannot possibly audit tax returns as complex as his and other billionaires. he will try to fire tens of thousands of people at the internal revenue service, especially irs agents involved in the most sophisticated and complex tax returns. like elon musk's. leading off our discussion tonight is democratic senator amy klobuchar of minnesota. she's a member of the senate judiciary committee, rules committee, and the commerce committee. and senator klobuchar, another element of the breaking news at this hour is the white house saying in a court filing, now that elon musk

has nothing to do with the department of government efficiency. in writing to a judge, the white house is saying in his role as a senior adviser to the president, mr. musk has no greater authority than any other white house senior adviser. like other white house senior advisers. mr. mr. musk has no. let me get to page two here. has no actual or formal authority to make government decisions himself. mr. musk is an employee of the white house. he is not an employee of us. d.o.j. mr. musk is not the us d.o.j. service administrator. so, senator, there's that. >> i think that's news. >> to everyone. >> lawrence. >> so thanks for breaking it. i was thinking, as. >> i. was hearing. you methodically go. >> through what happened here with. social security. 71

million americans. >> on social security. for 40%. >> of them, it is their income. >> that's it. it is. >> what is the difference between them and basically being homeless? and when i listen to this, i kept thinking, this. career official. michelle king, that's her last name, right? michelle king, who refused to give him this. >> access. >> 30 year employee. >> and she ends up. >> stepping down. >> because of the other king. the guy who thinks he's king of our country. and that is elon musk, who was not. elected to do that, who has so many conflicts because of the major multi-million-dollar. >> contracts that. >> he has with the government. and so i hope and i know there's already lawsuits that have been filed on this that once again, just like with the. irs data, the. court a court will find that, no, you can't just start rifling around rummaging through people's social security data. if you think there's fraud, then why did you file fire all the

inspector generals? okay, if you think there's something we can do here, then let's do this the right way, according to the law and not what they are doing in agency after agency. >> so donald trump campaigned promising. absolutely will not cut social security, will not cut medicare, but will not cut social security. by the way, the first republican candidate to ever do that. most other republican candidates for president always wanted to keep alive the budgetary option of cutting social security and medicare. so they're always very careful about their language, not trump. he campaigned as left on that subject as any democrat candidate for president ever has. and now here's elon musk going into social security. he only has one mission which is cutting spending. that's his only mission. and the only way you cut spending is social security is you take money away from the people who expect to receive it. >> and lawrence. >> you look at what he campaigned on that was cutting. >> costs for people, not adding cost. >> for people in order.

>> to give tax. >> cuts to his billionaire friends. and that is exactly what you're seeing there, looking for money everywhere. >> and when. >> i look at. >> say, the medicare negotiation. >> for prescription drugs that even the biden administration taking this. law that senator sanders and i and others have worked on, that would save 1.5 billion in just the ten drugs they negotiated already in out-of-pocket costs for seniors. they won't commit to doing that again. they are undermining those. programs with the budget that has been suggested in the house of representatives. and so you look at what they're doing, it is totally the opposite. corruption is up, chaos is up. and yes, prices are up for americans. and that's why we are standing up against. >> this effort. >> to basically put there. tax cuts for billionaires on the backs of working people, whether. >> it's social. >> security or whether it is prescription drugs or whether it is housing or child care. >> senator amy klobuchar, thank

you very much for starting off our coverage tonight. >> great to be on. thanks, lawrence. >> coming up, we'll be joined by a former usaid worker who has been forced out of work by elon musk. and next, we'll consider the other musk attacks on public safety, including at the federal aviation administration. that's aviation administration. that's next. with fatigue and light-headedness, i knew something was wrong. then i saw my doctor and found out i have afib, and that means there's about a 5 times greater risk of stroke. symptoms like irregular heartbeat, heart racing, chest pain, shortness of breath, fatigue, or light-headedness, can come and go. but if you have afib, the risk of stroke is always there. if you have one or more symptoms, get checked out. making that appointment can help you get ahead of stroke risk. this is no time to wait. mopping is hard work, but then i tried the swiffer powermop. it has a built-in solution that breaks down dirt on contact. plus, it's 360-degree swivel head

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just days into his second term in office, has been to lay off workers at the faa. nbc news reports that a union spokesperson said close to 300 of its members received termination notices over the weekend, and those affected worked as maintenance mechanics, aeronautical information specialists, environmental protection specialists, aviation safety assistance, as well as management and program assistants. this comes after this afternoon's crash landing, involving a delta airlines flight that was landing in toronto. 18 people were injured after the plane overturned while landing. the cause is still being investigated. the trump administration is also trying to unfire some federal workers who deal with the safety of our nuclear weapons stockpile. in an email sent to employees at the national nuclear security administration and obtained by

nbc news, officials wrote the termination letters for some national nuclear security administration probationary employees are being rescinded, but we do not have a good way to get in touch with those personnel. the trump administration on saturday terminated hundreds of employees at the centers for disease control and prevention because who wants to control and prevent disease, including fellows responsible for key public health roles, according to two sources at the agency who spoke to nbc news on the condition of anonymity. out of concern over, of course, retaliation. the associated press was first to report, quote, the trump administration fired 20 immigration judges without explanation, a union official said saturday, amid sweeping moves to shrink the size of the federal government. joining us now is e.j. dionne, an opinion columnist for the washington post and a senior fellow at the brookings institution. he is a government professor at georgetown university. and e.j, i want to refer back to frs,

famous, quote about social security. no damn politician will be able to take it away. well, turns out that's not who's taking it away. it's elon musk. and elon musk. i read that. >> filing in. >> the break that. >> you. >> thought elon. >> musk. >> who doesn't even head. >> something called doge. >> so on what. >> authority actually is he asking? >> i think what you're seeing. >> here is. something that. jim himes talked about on. >> your show a couple of. weeks ago, which i think is the. >> perfect statement about the trump. >> administration so far. he said it's. >> a perfect mixture. >> of brutality. >> and incompetence. and i think that's what. you're seeing in the. >> case of the faa. >> what you're seeing on these nuclear, on the nuclear. >> story, on the firing. >> and then botched attempt to rehire. >> these folks at. >> the nuclear agency. what's amazing. here is that doge.

>> casts itself. >> as being about. >> government efficiency. this is about. >> government inefficiency. >> it's not. >> like past efforts. >> to clean up. >> the government. and to go back. >> to the fdr question, i guess trump agreed with. >> roosevelt that a. >> politician can't end social security. >> so i guess. >> he has delegated that to elon musk. >> yeah. so the filing with a judge saying that elon musk has nothing to do with the department of government efficiency is. judges don't like to be lied to. and they have that judge has a right to take judicial notice of information beyond the filings. there's all this information in public writing by trump and by musk saying he is indeed the head of this department of government inefficiency, along with vivek ramaswamy. at one point there have been public statements. there was donald trump saying it in the oval office last week.

it's clearly a legal attempt to get elon musk out of the lawsuits, to literally just excise him from the lawsuits, suing over all of this activity. >> i think that that's. >> clearly the. >> effort here. >> and, you know, i think that the trump administration eventually gets caught up. >> in its own cuteness. >> he has gotten caught up before. we are acting right now as if trump is all powerful. >> as if he. >> didn't lose the election in 2020. >> as if. >> he didn't lose the house in 2018. >> and yes, all. >> this stuff is happening at once. >> and he's. >> asserting all this illegal. >> power. >> which is very. >> hard to hold. >> accountable, especially. when republicans are unwilling to do it. but i think what he, what he and musk are doing now is actually going to create the kind of opposition we haven't seen yet. people have reason to be scared about.

>> what. >> they're doing at the faa, have reason to be scared. about this incompetence with our various nuclear programs around the country, and they're sure as heck worried about their secrecy, their privacy. when trump when musk is trying to get hold of records both at social security and at the irs, i think that they are going to face a kind of opposition in the coming weeks that they haven't faced yet, and a lot of people are going to get engaged with these issues who haven't been engaged yet. >> e.j. dionne, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight. >> real good to be with you. >> thank you. coming up, the very best advice i ever got about doing this program was in an elevator in the building after work here one night when i was lucky enough to run into lorne michaels. i'll share lauren's words of wisdom about live tv, doing live tv later in this program. but first, annie

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>> get super beta prostate. >> last night, 60 minutes focused on people at the united states agency for international aid who were fired by elon musk.

>> people are really scared. >> i think. >> that. >> you know. >> 12 days ago, people. >> knew where their. >> next paycheck was coming from. they knew. >> how they were going to pay for their kids daycare, their medical bills, and then all. >> gone overnight. >> they're not looking. >> for competency. they're not looking for if you're good at. >> your. >> job, they're looking for pure loyalty tests. and if you don't give it you, you will be punished. >> and they had to leave the building. and these are folks who had. >> decades and decades of. >> public service serving usaid across administrations from, you know. >> george bush to obama. >> to the first trump administration. and they. >> were never. >> able to walk back. in the. >> building again. >> there was no process. >> no one explained to them why they were being relieved. >> to my knowledge, they. >> received an email. >> and then. >> if they didn't leave the building, they were. >> escorted out. >> of the building. >> annie lin wrote this in a guest column for the bozeman daily chronicle in montana. my job for the past six years has been with the us president's

malaria initiative, or pmi. malaria still kills around 600,000 people each year, mostly children under five. but in the 30 countries where pmi works, the malaria mortality rate has been reduced by half since the initiative was launched by george w bush. this is not a show of if. this is not a show of american strength, i don't know what is. malaria is very seasonal as mosquitoes flourish during the rainy season, planting things like distributions of bed nets and preventive medicine for children has a precise timeline that will fall apart, making this work less effective if it even happens at all. and children, children of god will die unnecessarily. joining us now is annie lin, former usaid senior community health adviser for the president's malaria initiative. thank you very much for joining us tonight. what what have we lost, particularly in the fight

against malaria? >> thanks so much for having me. oh, what have we lost? well, malaria kills children. >> like you said. >> and i wrote, malaria still kills 600,000 people a year, most of whom are children under five. it's also particularly dangerous for pregnant women. and so with this work even halting, even if we are just talking about a freeze, rainy seasons are coming and all of the work to plan, the campaigns to distribute seasonal malaria. chemoprevention preventive medication for young children, or for bed nets to be distributed. or, you know, if a pregnant woman is going to a clinic and. >> because she. wants to get. >> a net. >> or because she's. >> planning, she's hoping to get preventive. >> treatment like. she used to. >> that's going to all stop. and so it already has stopped the planning that takes so much precision. these are logistics, really hard to reach, places that take an immense effort of logistics planning. all of all of that has paused. if you think longer term, you know, our fight

against anti-malarial resistance, all of the monitoring we're doing of the of the effectiveness of antimalarial drugs, all of that has stopped. and this has been an emerging threat. there's a new invasive mosquito that we're no longer monitoring in africa. so these threats that we were already really worried about are now we have no idea what's going to be happening, even if even if things resume and we hope that they will, we hope that funding will start to move so that there's actually something to these these waivers that people are talking about, that work will actually be able to start. >> yeah. when i go to africa i always take malaria pills. i take them two days before arriving in the malaria zone. throughout the time i'm in the malaria zone, then for a week afterwards and i just i can't imagine going into malaria zones like malawi, where the entire country is a malaria zone. without that protection. and to imagine that we are taking the kinds of protection we know that works away from people who actually live there is a first

in terms of american international cruelty. >> absolutely. >> i mean. >> i think this is a colleague said that this is the greatest act of cruelty he's witnessed in his lifetime. and i agree, i just don't. and i think that if americans really were to think about what happened, no matter who they voted for, to think about what we are doing right now to anti-malarial medication that can save children's lives, wherever that is, in the process of getting to these hard to reach places that that has stopped, the supply chain has stopped. we cannot be okay with this as a country, no matter what you think about foreign aid in the long term, i think that we really cannot just just justify in any way that this needs any kind of a 90 day review process, that the fact that it was stopped after secretary rubio had actually talked about the importance of the fight against malaria in his confirmation hearing. this was just so unexpected. and it continues to be just so staggering every time i think about another implication. >> yeah, marco rubio used to be a champion of usaid until donald

trump told him not to. annie lin, thank you very much for your work, and thank you for joining us tonight. >> thanks so much. >> thank you. and coming up last night, nbc went live for three hours in a loving celebration of saturday night live. and the miracle worker lorne michaels, who created the show and has kept it running in this building for 50 years. we'll show you some of that. when susan morrison, the author of the beautifully written new book beautifully written new book lorne. joins us next. head & shoulders is launching something huge. ♪♪ the bare minimum. anti-dandruff shampoo made with only nine ingredients. no sulfates, silicones or dyes. and packaged with 45% less plastic. giving you outstanding dandruff protection. and leaving hair beautiful and moisturized. major dandruff protection, minimal ingredients. job done. head & shoulders bare.

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fedex. >> all of our. >> lives were changed. >> by the show. >> everyone in. >> this room has something else. >> in common. >> none of us. >> were allowed to. >> use the little bathroom. >> in lorne's office. >> adam sandler is funny and deeply moving musical tribute to the 50 years of saturday night live. on last night's 50th anniversary show, of course, began with the person who created it all and is solely responsible for keeping saturday night live on television for a remarkable 50 years. lorne michaels. the television miracle worker who is the subject of susan morrison's beautifully written and observed new book,

lorne the man who invented saturday night live. it is one of those masterful pieces of writing that doesn't require an interest in the subject. if you've never seen saturday night live. the book is still relentlessly fascinating. if you've ever worked in an office, for example. there is much for you to learn from. one of the greatest practitioners of office politics in the world, lorne michaels. there are surprises about your favorite cast members, and there is the young man named lorne, struggling and often considering himself a failure in show business before he created saturday night live. it is the best biography i have ever read of a living person, because lorne michaels, so willingly and often self-critically, turns over his cards in discussions with susan morrison that are more revealing than any interview he's ever given. the book is a cultural history of the last 70 years of north american entertainment, very much including canada, where lorne michaels grew up. my

best friend jim downey, who i have known since the first week of college, went to work at saturday night live in the second season, and by hanging around with jim and our friend, saturday night live writer al franken, at their workplace during my unemployed years, and frequently lunging for the free food at the saturday night live after parties, i met lorne michaels, who gracefully accepted me into the extended entourage of saturday night live. in those days, i never expected to work in this building, certainly not in the news business, in the same building with saturday night live and one night 14 years ago, after the first several months of doing this show, when i was headed home at about 1130. the elevator doors opened and there was lorne michaels alone in the elevator, heading home to right away. right away, he started telling me everything he liked about my show, which shocked me that he was even watching it, and he was detailed so i could tell he was. he said everything he liked about it and everything he liked about what i was doing. and i didn't understand it. i didn't understand what he was

saying because he was describing something that i could not see. i could not see the show the way he could see my show, and i could not see my work the way he could see my work. and i told him i wanted to have a crawl at the bottom of the screen saying, you're watching an unrehearsed first draft. because both of those things offended me. i had never shown my first draft scripts to anyone in my hollywood days of writing tv drama episodes. i used to give my scripts to emmy winning actors, and without changing a word, they would make every line i wrote better. and now i was stuck out there doing my scripts straight to camera without even time to rehearse. and i blurted all this out in show business shorthand to lorne in that elevator ride down of only about five floors in rockefeller center, and his eyes seemed sympathetic. but he wasn't. he told me that i was wrong about everything that i was worried about. and then he said the most important thing anyone has ever said to me about doing this show, doing live television, lawrence said. we don't do it

because we're ready. we do it because it's 1130. last night, adam sandler's wonderful song began with lorne michaels and ended with lorne michaels. >> 30 years. >> gives him down. >> here. >> 45 years. >> of lorne, six years of our boy farley. five of our buddy. >> no. >> 50 years of one of us getting to, say, live from new york. it's saturday night. 50 years of standing on homebase, waving goodnight and goodbye. 50 years. of the best times of our life. all right.

>> thank you lord. >> jesus. that was susan morrison, the articles editor at the new yorker. her wonderful new book, lorne the man who invented saturday night live, is out tomorrow on one of the lucky ones who has it now? susan, i love it beyond description. the writing is so beautiful. it's so wonderful. it's your first book. and you know, we're always hoping our friends with first books deliver. this is. and you've been on this for years. >> a decade? >> yeah. ten years. >> yeah. thank you for that. >> nice introduction. this is the first time i've thought about the book as. workplace comedy. but you're absolutely right. that's what it is. it's the office. >> in hardcover. >> and i have to say, you know, i knew you were working on it for about ten years, and i would run into you over at snl at different times. and i knew you start to get concerned for a book author who's who's in or around year five or so, you know, because there's some quicksand there that some people

never get out of. and so i wasn't never going to say anything because i'd been very late on on books myself. but here's what i think. i don't know how you could have written this book in less than ten years. it is so wonderfully detailed in all these exquisite ways that are that are unique to your observational powers. >> well, you know. >> right after the 40th anniversary of the. >> show, i started. thinking about how no one. >> has had more influence. >> on how so many generations of. americans laugh and what we think is funny than lorne michaels, and the idea that he's been able to sustain it over these decades is remarkable. i thought it would be really interesting to try to get close up and see how he makes that happen. now, as you know, because you know, jim downey, as i do to the inside comedy world, lorne has long been this object of obsession is the wizard of oz, obi-wan kenobi, jay gatsby. but. >> i mean, every one of them has spoken as many words as in this book about lorne michaels. i

mean, jim, in his lifetime has said at least this much. >> this is another reason why i took a long time to write the book, is that the reporting took too long. every time you sit down to talk to somebody about lorne michaels, they go off for hours. >> you had such fantastic sources from from jim to conan o'brien to jon hamm to every tina fey, everyone. not insightful. >> not only. >> is lorne. >> a very intelligent guy and a great talker who doesn't usually talk to the press, which, you know, was my benefit here, but everyone he hires is very smart and articulate and funny. so every one of these people and i talk to all of them is a journalist's dream. you know, conan o'brien told me, if you ever bump into an snl person, you could be talking about, you know, prime minister, former prime minister theresa, theresa may, or health care or. but within five minutes, you're going to be talking about lorne michaels buying flip flops on saint barts. you know, all roads lead to lorne. and so my idea was to try to get inside this obsession. you know why they're all so curious about him? why

they want to please him so desperately and help explain that to the wider comedy world. >> and you take us through that workweek at snl, the monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday, friday, saturday. how each day is different. each day becomes more difficult than the one before. you also take us through the beginning story of lorne michaels that begins in canada. and i want to put up a picture of lauren and rosie shuster. this is when they're in high school. this is at a in 1964. this is a friend's sweet 16 party. this photo is in the book. i've never seen photos like this of lorne michaels. so one of the. i just was so engrossed with the beginning chapters of his life, his childhood, and losing his father at a young age. taking on rosie schuster's father, who was a professional comedian. and i didn't realize that i didn't connect shuster to that. >> one of the things that you're dealing with, if you're a biographer, is that once your character walks onto the world stage, he's kind of open season,

like people know a fair amount about lorne in the years since 1975. for me, the most fun part was excavating the years before that, because no one knows anything about him. and in fact, you know, he did. very interesting. the seeds of snl sprung on the plywood stage of his summer camp. yeah, but but. >> he's the guy putting on a play at summer camp. >> and he was so famous at it that kids in summer camps in michigan knew about lorne liebowitz, the great camp impresario. but my favorite part of the research was dealing with the ten years that lorne bounced around la before snl, where he worked on one cruddy cheeseball variety show after another, the perry como christmas special, the beautiful phyllis diller show. but what's interesting is that these things were were were duds, and they were largely written by guys who were in their 50s and 60s who were refugees, refugees from radio. so lorne thought, oh my god, television is a dead end. but, you know, almost like a character out of dickens. he no

matter how grim the situation, he always learned something from it. he always took a lesson from it. one of an example of this is when he was working for the beautiful phyllis diller show in the 60s. and i wish we had a shot of phyllis diller. but the audience then wasn't ready to see a woman, especially an abrasive woman, running a show. they found her off putting. so the producers had this idea. let's have phyllis just sit down and have a kind of fireside chat with some of the guests to warm her up to the audience. it was lauren's job to interview those guests and supply the questions. well, there's a direct line between those phyllis diller interviews and the opening monologue of snl, the monologue at snl that performs the same function. you know, you have a movie star coming onto this tv show, doesn't know what he's doing. but by just chatting amiably with the audience, everyone is kind of put at ease. >> there's also. i'm so glad that the book reminded me of the

valley that lauren's career hit after he left. he did the first five years of saturday night live and then they left, which was normal in television. people didn't stay with tv shows. they were going on to greater things. they were all going to go into the movie business. lauren was going into the movie business. and then that doesn't go quite as planned. and five years later, he's back and he's and he's and he has a failed tv show in the meantime. and then he's back running saturday night live. and his first year back is terrible. and what i love about the book is i had forgotten how bad that first year back was. and so what you're seeing is this guy who for the last several decades now has been perceived as a nonstop king. he had some rough periods and some losses that he had to climb back up from. >> he had some big bumps. you know, he left after the first five years thinking he was going to enter his mike nichols period. he was going to be a hollywood auteur. that didn't work. so he realized, you know, his true calling was doing live television. so he happily went back. but he was anxious that he didn't want to make it to baby

boomers. he made a massive mistake in hiring all these young kids from john hughes movies. that was a disastrous season. our friend al franken told me that when he was in the senate, marco rubio used to come up to him on the senate floor and say, al, what happened that season? you know, i mean, everyone noticed that snl was tanking. but then, of course, the show, you know, is like constantly again and again, like a phoenix rising from the ashes. the next year, he picked that fantastic cast of dana carvey, phil hartman, jan hooks, and it was off again. but you know, the thing that lorne michaels knows about the show is that it's like the yankees or the dow. it goes up, it goes down, and it exists in a permanent state of flux and regeneration, much like the city that is its home. >> you know, the other thing he said to me that night when he said, you know, we don't do it because we're ready, by the way, that quotes in the book, as you know. yeah. because he's told

other people that a lot of times we don't do it because we're ready. we do it because it's 1130 and we're walking out the door, but we're up on the sidewalk. he then says, and you get to try it again tomorrow night. and that's his attitude toward snl episodes. no matter how good or bad this went, there's next week. susan morrison we do not have the time to do justice to your work in this amazing book, or to do justice to lorne as a subject. this is short form tv. thank you for this book. thank you very much for joining us tonight. this is really a jewel of a book. i am so glad. >> so much, really fun talking about morrison. about morrison. >> thank you with fatigue and light-headedness, i knew something was wrong. then i saw my doctor and found out i have afib, and that means there's about a 5 times greater risk of stroke. symptoms like irregular heartbeat, heart racing, chest pain, shortness of breath, fatigue, or light-headedness, can come and go. but if you have afib, the risk of stroke is always there. if you have one or more symptoms, get checked out.

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blend to help reduce urges to urinate. find it at walmart or these retailers. >> if you read one book about creativity this year, let it be this one susan morrison's lawn. susan morrison gets tonight's last word. the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now.