government is doing its work. thanks to both of you, i appreciate your time and that is all in for this tuesday night. i will be in for chris again tomorrow night. we're going to have a very interesting conversation with lina khan, who is the head of the federal communications commission. she a federal trade commission. she has been one of the few government officials over the last few years to enforce some of the laws we've got in this country about antitrust and about companies gaining too much power. obviously, her philosophy is not one being carried out by the current administration. that's it for me. thank you for joining us tonight. the rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening rachel. >> good evening. thanks my friend. >> much appreciated. and thanks to. >> you at home for joining. >> us this hour. really happy to have you here. it has. >> been another. >> one of those days. >> nbc news reporting tonight that the. >> trump administration accidentally oops. totally didn't. >> mean to fire the. >> people working on. >> bird flu. >> no idea. >> how that happened. >> now the. >> the bird.

>> flu experts at usda. >> they are. >> trying to hire them back. they did this with. >> the national. nuclear security. >> administration as. >> well. >> which we. >> talked about on last night's show. >> now it's. >> with the bird flu workers. oops. >> what does. >> this button do? does anybody. >> know what this button does? >> i thought i should. >> ask because. >> i. >> just a. >> minute ago i just pushed it. >> does anybody know. >> what it does. >> got any. >> other buttons i can push? the washington. >> post reports tonight. >> that the trump administration is considering a plan to. incinerate $500 million worth of covid tests. that you've already paid for. it's not because there's anything wrong with these covid tests. it's just because. >> i guess, you know, covid tests icky. >> $500 million. >> worth of perfectly good covid tests that we, the taxpayers, already purchased. they are in storage. they are stockpiled. >> right now, set to be.

>> distributed for free to the american people. >> in the event of another big uptick in covid. >> but instead. >> the trump. >> administration apparently. wants to destroy them because, you know, government efficiency. the trump administration just today fired more than 10% of the staff at. >> the national. >> science foundation. national science foundation was founded in 1950 to promote science and engineering and work on u.s. defense and public health. national science foundation provides a quarter of the federal support that goes for basic research at america's colleges and universities. it's how we fund astronomy observatories. it is how we fund our research stations in antarctica. trump just today fired a huge proportion of their workforce. a senior engineer at the gsa, the general services administration, has also just resigned today, reportedly after trying to block people working

for president trump's top campaign donor, elon musk, trying to block one of musk's guys from a system called notify. gov. gov is a system whereby the government can contact you directly. individual citizens can be. >> contacted directly from federal agencies. it is a secure system. it's obviously very sensitive because it's your personal cell phone number that is linked to information about you and your status and involvement with any number of government agencies. obviously, that's a very sensitive thing. but this man named thomas shedd, who until recently worked for tesla but was just installed inside the gsa by the president's top donor, elon musk, the ceo of tesla. mr. shedd, apparently demanded full read write access to that notified gov system. in response, the lead engineer in charge of that system, a gsa employee named steven riley,

apparently, quote, objected to shedd's ability to view phone numbers and variable data for members of the public. information that shed quote would be able to download and store without anyone knowing. riley wrote to his colleagues that once he had obtained this information, shed quote could also grant the same access to others. he said, quote, we have not received a justification for this request, which makes it difficult to suggest alternative approaches that would accomplish shedd's goals while still being protective of personally identifying information for members of the public, riley said, quote, i don't believe i can operate a program in system without the ability to manage access to personally identifying information about american citizens, he said. quote, as a result, i have submitted my resignation to gsa. today will be my last day. so the lead engineer at the general services administration trying to protect your personally identifying information linked to your cell

phone number and resigning in protest when he couldn't do it. in resigning on these terms, he has let we, the public, know that president donald trump apparently wants to give your cell phone number and personally identifying information about you, including any of your interactions with any federal government agency, to a random guy from elon musk's car company and wants to give him this information in a way that would allow him to walk out the door with it and give it to anyone else he wanted. so by resigning, trying to stop it, being unable to stop it, resigning in protest, and then explaining exactly why he resigned and what the problem was, he has let the public know that this has just happened to us, which itself is a mitzvah. but that wasn't even the highest profile or most shocking protest resignation today. that one would be another

one from the justice department. i'm going to talk about that in just a moment with reporter ryan riley. he's been all over this story, and i'll let ryan explain it in detail. but in short, it appears that they are now ordering career nonpartisan federal prosecutors to bring at least one federal criminal prosecution of a biden administration figure, a prosecution that that career federal prosecutor thought was unwarranted by the law, and thus effectuated a new, high profile, principled resignation in washington today. so we're going to get to that in a moment, demanding unfounded prosecutions. that's a thing. there's also another really unsettling element of that doj story and that resignation that has to do with money and them going after bank accounts that they're not supposed to be able to go after. we'll get to that story in just a moment. one of the other things we're watching,

though, as things get wilder and more off the chain with each passing day, is whether there is any sign of any limiting instinct that is coming from the republican party, of which president trump is ostensibly the leader. take, for example, glenn youngkin. he was once thought of as a republican with a bright future in this country's politics. he's the republican governor of a purple state. he's the governor of virginia. when the republican party briefly considered the possibility of running someone other than donald trump for president this last election cycle, glenn youngkin was seen as probably the most electable, non-trump choice that the republicans could make. they didn't go down that road, though. they picked trump. and so glenn youngkin has melted back into the scenery. he's been plodding along as governor of virginia in his final term in office. but in virginia, you do have to consider politics along a slightly different timeline than everywhere else. and that's because virginia has off year elections. what that means is

that virginia this year will elect a whole new legislature and a new governor this year in 2025, just a few months from now. which means that virginia election this year will be the first big partizan test of how americans are feeling about the country and about politics, and about the two political parties now that we've got trump back in office. so imagine being a republican governor of a purple state with that kind of pressure on you. right? and again, glenn youngkin's case, his state also has over 145,000 civil federal government, excuse me, civilian federal government employees, 145,000 virginians who are civilian government employees of the federal government, even more people who work as federal government contractors. in fact, in his state, they get more federal contract money from the federal government than any other state in the country. why is virginia so well off? well, it doesn't hurt that they get

over $100 billion a year in federal contracts paid to various virginia businesses and other entities. and, you know, that's that's fine for virginia. it's fine for the virginia economy as long as the federal government isn't now being run like a ketamine fueled drive by shooting and arson spree led by a 19 year old who goes by the name big balls, if that is, in fact, how the federal government is being run, and it is then being the governor of a state like virginia, which is so radically dependent on the federal government and federal contracting and federal funding, that's a problem. that's like going to bed and thinking you're a human and waking up in a burlap sack full of rabid minks, that's like, oh, i guess our state isn't going to work anymore. you might remember that the first full day trump was in office, he ordered an immediate and indiscriminate freeze of all federal funding. the day after that, glenn youngkin, governor of virginia, poor thing. he

wanted to do an event to announce a new round of virginia school test results. and i'm sure that's what he wanted to talk about. what do you think people wanted to ask him about instead? headline virginia governor glenn youngkin says voters asked for trump disruption as fallout continues dateline richmond, virginia governor glenn youngkin had a message early wednesday for everyone, claiming president donald trump's on again, off again, on again freeze on trillions of dollars in federal spending would create chaos. youngkin told reporters at an event rolling out virginia school test scores, quote, the steps that president trump is taking are steps that he told everyone he was going to do. a few hours after he spoke, the white house rescinded the memo ordering the freeze. a little after that, white house press secretary caroline leavitt said, actually, the freeze is still coming. youngkin's office did not respond to a request for comment about the changing status. so here's a republican

governor in a state where republicans are going to have to try to get elected again this fall in a few months, in a very purple state. and as virginia residents are being mass fired and having their livelihoods completely thrown into the air in a maelstrom of inexplicable chaos, he's like, i'm a republican. so i support this, i support this. yes. he actually said at that event, quote, there may be some disruption to virginians along the way, and i'm very empathetic to those concerns. we can get through this. but he also said he supports president trump all the way. so yeah, way to stand up for your people, gov. we'll get through this. i have so much empathy. we'll get through this. and then later that day they announced they were rescinding the funding freeze anyway. so he had to that morning get out in

front of the cameras and just eat it. politically. he has to say he accepts what trump is doing to cause all of this harm to his state and the residents of this state. they send him out there to the cameras to have to say that, to put that on the record, and then they change their mind and reverse the decision anyway. oops. did i just push that button? can i push it? anybody know what this button does? after that first couple of days of the new trump administration? understandably, glenn youngkin has not been poking his head above the parapet much since he did try again today. however, he tried to do a press conference this morning about a looming winter storm barreling its way toward virginia. in the ensuing four weeks since the last time he tried to talk about what trump was doing to virginia. you know, in the past four weeks, things have only gotten worse. things that the proverbial crack house in washington have only gotten more dangerous and more insane.

but still, glenn youngkin, as a republican, doesn't feel brave enough to say that he disagrees with anything that trump is doing. right. i mean, if you're looking for that, you're looking for the vertebrates exhibit around the corner. this this is something else. this is not that. and so here's the here's the local press coverage on what governor glenn youngkin had to do today. dateline richmond governor glenn youngkin said today that the state is preparing an aid package for virginians losing their jobs in the trump administration's gutting of the federal workforce. but he said the cuts are necessary. in his first extended public remarks on the cuts, youngkin told reporters that he feels deep concern for those who are anxious about their employment future as the white house purges people at almost every agency. hundreds of workers at the faa lost their jobs over the weekend, for example, in a sweeping and a sweeping elimination of workers ahead of a tuesday deadline, affected mapmakers and cancer researchers and fema staffers

among thousands more cut over the past few weeks. but youngkin defended the trump administration's actions, which disproportionately affect virginia as one of the top states in the country for federal employment and spending, with more than 140,000 federal workers. even one of youngkin's signature achievements a computer science laboratory high school in richmond, has been touched by the cuts, with cancellation of a federal grant for a teacher residency program. the governor said he wanted it known that, quote, we understand and we're here to help, he said. the state, quote, will have the ability to support federal workers through any job dislocation. but the governor declined to provide details about what kind of help the state is prepared to offer. he said that when the plan is ready, quote, i want to communicate it in a package. we'll have a good one for you. we'll get back to me. we'll it'll be i don't know what it's going to, but it's going to be good. i don't know, it'll be

great. we're going to come up with something. in the meantime, please report that i said that i support donald trump 1,000%, and also that i am working to figure out how to clean up the giant, deliberate mess he is making of people's lives and our economy in this state, for which i have a lot of empathy. say that too, even though i definitely 1,000% support this infliction of pain on people who live in my state and even on myself, even though we've done nothing wrong. can you get all that in the lead? thank you sir, may i have another? can you put that as the caption? that i mentioned that virginia has elections this year in just a few months. you feel like you're republican politicians in virginia are looking out for you. so we're going to keep watching this dynamic. republicans who can't actually bear what trump is doing to their own states and to their own constituents, but they're too scared to say they're against it. republican senator lisa murkowski of

alaska, asking for exemptions to trump's cuts and actions specifically for indian tribes. and alaska republican senator chuck grassley of iowa asking for an exemption for iowa farmers to the tariffs on canada. republican florida congresswoman maria elvira salazar, asking for an exemption to the indiscriminate deportation policies. republican senator katie britt asking for an exemption on the massive cuts to scientific and medical research, saying you couldn't possibly mean alabama for those cuts, could you not? alabama. you want these cuts elsewhere, right? republican senator susan collins of maine saying the same thing, saying surely those cuts don't apply to the universities and labs in maine. she said it applies to the ones in maine that would be, quote, devastating. so certainly they don't mean maine, right? they couldn't. republicans just eating it in their home districts, in their home states, as their party's leader, does

things that are devastating to those states and to those constituents. and just seeing that in states all over the country is a lot of things. it gives me many, many feelings of many different kinds. but as a matter of political science, it's also important to watch in terms of what kinds of constraints this, this president, this administration might ever feel. political scientists will tell you that one of the only constraints that matter on an ascending authoritarian is the constraints put on him by his own party. the distance between what people think they voted for and what people realize they got ultimately does matter. sometimes it's the only thing that matters. the wall street journal yesterday spoke with trump voters who just one month in, say they are now horrified by what they helped cause when they voted for trump. quote, stacy white says she voted for

president trump because she wanted lower prices and to stop fentanyl from coming into the us. now, with widespread federal layoffs and expected cuts, she worries her family will lose their house if her partner is laid off from his government job at the dialysis unit where she works. staff has started doing drills for what to do if immigration and customs enforcement comes to deport their patients. stacy said, quote, when we said safer borders, i thought he was thinking, let's stop the drugs from coming into the country. i didn't know he was going to start raiding places. she said she didn't believe he would actually follow through on some of the more hardline policies he touted during the campaign. the 49 year old omaha, nebraska, resident said, quote, now i'm like, dang, why didn't i just pick kamala? emily anderson from duluth, minnesota, categorizes her vote for trump this year as the, quote, biggest mistake of my life. she is horrified by trump's focus on deportations and use of guantanamo bay to

hold migrants. she says that trump has been too focused on, quote, ridiculous, flashy moves such as banning paper straws and renaming the gulf of mexico the gulf of america. anderson's daughter is an occupational therapist. anderson's daughter's occupational therapist has stopped taking new patients over fears that the practice will have its federal funding dry up. anderson said, quote, i feel so stupid, guilty, regretful, embarrassed is a huge one. i'm absolutely embarrassed that i voted for trump. so as long as we still have a political process. voters feeling that way, trump voters feeling that way. republican elected officials desperately seeking exemptions for their state from what trump is doing to try to save their constituents from what trump is doing, saying trump's policies are bad if they apply in their state. republicans finding trump's actions and chaos and dysfunction not only damaging, but indefensible. and they're being caught out at home, unable

to defend the indefensible. if we still have a political process, that will matter in terms of what trump can do and for how long. but there's one. one last thing i want to introduce into the mix here. one real wild card to watch for along these same lines. and it is something that isn't a bread and butter home district economic issue like these ones i've been talking about. it's actually a big picture issue, but i think its political impact is something that's going to be important to watch, because i think there's a chance it might be bigger than what they are expecting, at least what the pundit class is expecting. and part of the reason i think it's safe to say this is at least a wild card is because of how trump has been talking about it. it's because it's been something that trump has himself been so cagey and so palpably scared about talking about for so long, that i think he knows the public really doesn't want to see this. and i'll i'll show you what i mean. i'll show you what i mean

here. it started with a simple yes or no question. question. have you spoken to vladimir putin since your election? yes or no answer? i can't tell you. i can't tell you. it's just inappropriate. trump interview after the election with time magazine. it's inappropriate. it's not appropriate to be for us to ask you if you've spoken to putin, or it's not appropriate for you to say. that was december, about a month after the election. by that point, it was widely reported that trump had taken calls from world leaders across the whole planet, like france and israel and india, saudi arabia, egypt, the uk, ukraine, south korea. trump himself made a big deal of announcing that he announcing before he was sworn in that he had spoken to president xi jinping of china. he said, quote, the call was a very good one. so he's bragging about and letting it be known about and sort of effusing about all of his calls with all of these foreign leaders all over the world, including very controversial ones like the

president of communist china. but when you ask him if he talked to putin, he says that's inappropriate, doesn't want to talk about it. but, you know, i said that was december. maybe that was just something weird about being in the transition. maybe once he took office, once he was officially president, he would find it more appropriate to issue some clarity on this issue. let's ask him. >> of vladimir. >> putin. >> who that was inauguration day, january 20th. are you going to be talking to vladimir putin? who? vladimir. who? talking to what? me. >> talking to vladimir putin. >> who? >> president putin, sir. >> i'll be meeting with president putin. >> when do you. >> i don't know, i can't, it's being set up. >> when do you plan to speak to. >> president putin? >> could be very soon. >> i don't know, i can't, i can't. it's being set up. oh, that vladimir putin. yeah. yeah, yeah. i can't it's being set up.

i'll be meeting with him. i can't say it's being set up soon. again, that was inauguration day. again, not the most forthcoming answer, but a little closer to getting an answer. maybe. >> have you. >> spoken to him? >> i don't want to say. >> that was only three days after the inauguration. three days later. have you spoken to him? i don't want to say. somebody's getting so shy. have you spoken to vladimir putin? i don't want to say. why don't you want to say? okay. how about another chance to clear it up? >> on your. >> call. >> with vladimir putin? >> well, we'll be we'll be speaking. we are having discussions. yes, ongoing. >> already scheduled. >> and ongoing. >> are you ready? talking? >> yes. >> so you've. >> already spoken to vladimir putin? >> i want to say that. >> we will be speaking. we are already having discussions. so

you've already spoken to putin? i don't want to say that. i don't want to say there's nothing that this man doesn't want to say. this man wants to say everything that has ever crossed his mind. he's the freest man in the world. but that i don't want to say. i can't say it's not appropriate. that last clip takes us to the end of january. by the first week of this month, february headline in the new york post exclusive, trump reveals he's spoken with putin by phone are no more vladimir who? no more. i don't want to say no more. how dare you ask me such an inappropriate question? trump reveals he has spoken with putin by phone. how many times have they spoken by phone? you might be asking, quote. when asked how many times the two leaders have spoken, trump said, quote, i better not say. >> can you tell. >> us about your conversation. >> with vladimir putin? >> i don't want to do that. >> he's been talking. >> to vladimir putin. >> are you trying to set up. >> a. >> meeting with him?

>> well, i can't tell you what i'm talking about. >> you can't? aren't you the boss? we do not play a lot of video on the show of president trump talking. you might have noticed that we have this sort of mantra that we try to follow, which is watch what they do, not what they say. so we don't play a lot of tape of him talking. but every once in a while, i think it is worth the exception just to see that this is something that he talks about, the way he talks about nothing else. this is something that he's palpably scared to say, or he feels constrained, like he's not allowed to say. why is he so scared of this one thing? >> talking to vladimir putin? >> who have you talked to? >> president putin? >> no, i have not. >> you haven't talked to president putin. >> since you've been elected? >> no. well, i don't want to say that, but i haven't spoken to him recently. >> so you've spoken to. >> president putin. >> since you. >> i don't want to say that. i don't want to say anything about that. but have you spoken to

him? i don't want to say. >> so you've. >> already. >> spoken to vladimir putin? >> i don't want to say that. are you trying to set up a meeting with him? well, i can't tell you what i'm talking about. >> you told. >> us about your. >> conversation with. >> vladimir putin. >> i don't want to do that. >> see, he really doesn't want to say he really, really, really doesn't want to say. he can't say who tells you what you can and can't say. today, of course, we had the us secretary of state, the national security adviser, and whatever that real estate guy's job is. we had this high level designated delegation from the united states meet in saudi arabia with the russian government ahead of what is promised to be a trump meeting with vladimir putin very soon. no western leader has met with vladimir putin since he invaded ukraine three years ago. but the united states is not only apparently taking russia's side now, changing sides in that war. now we're essentially changing sides in the world. the united

states is now apparently against europe and our allies in the last 80 years. and for russia, while the president repeatedly and eerily and in a very out of character way, tells the american people he is not allowed to discuss that relationship or his communications with that leader. the political reality of this administration is going to be shaped by whether or not the people who oppose him oppose him strongly enough and effectively enough. the political reality of this administration and this presidency will be determined by also by by whether the people who voted for him are horrified enough by what they have wrought, that they regret it, and are willing to act differently and to speak out about their regret. the reality of this presidency and this administration will be determined in some part, by whether or not republican officials realize that their own

survival as politicians depends not on sucking up to trump, but by helping their constituents survive him. strong evidence supporting all of those strikes against trump so far, frankly. but this is one other thing to watch. if we really are now abandoning the free world and lining up instead with the world's dictatorships, and trump is unwilling to even explain why, just watch the american people are going to have some feelings about that too. just watch. >> you'll be back. >> emus can't help people customize and save with liberty mutual. >> and doug. >> well, i'll be. >> only pay. >> only pay. >> for. what so, what are you thinking? i'm thinking... (speaking to self) about our honeymoon. what about africa? safari? hot air balloon ride? swim with elephants? wait, can we afford a safari? great question. like everything, it takes a little planning.

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ice coming to knock on your front door? >> tea for president trump's first 100 days? alex wagner travels to the story to talk with people most impacted by the policies. >> were you there on january? >> i was there on. january 6th. >> did it surprise you that. >> you. >> were fired? given how resolutely nonpartisan you have

been? >> and for more in-depth reporting, follow her podcast, trumpland with alex wagner. >> the wave of high level resignations in response to the trump administration continues to swell. this is not people being fired by the trump administration, or people taking them up on their threat to resign, or else. this is people resigning on principle after they tried to stop the trump administration from doing something they're not supposed to be able to do. late last week, you will remember the department of justice had seven high profile resignations, all of them over the decision by the trump administration to drop corruption charges against new york city mayor eric adams, which the trump administration was demanding explicitly in exchange for a promise from mayor adams that he would help with trump's anti-immigrant policies. to understand why this was such a rubicon, that principled, even conservative

members of the justice department were not willing to cross. today, a former u.s. attorney named carol lam drew an analogy in an op ed for the new york times that i think is quite clarifying. she said, quote, imagine, for example, a president agreeing to hold off on bringing corruption charges against a u.s. senator as long as that senator signs on to the president's agenda in light of last week's events with the adams case. this scenario has suddenly become plausible. i think carol lam is right there. in fact, you can imagine the trump administration saying that for a whole swath of senators, you know, all the senators on this committee, we're going to bring sedition charges against all of you unless you do x. what's the difference? right after those seven resignations over the adams affair last week, the question of what's actually going to happen to adams in that case is up in the air. new york's governor, kathy hochul, has been considering whether to use her unusual powers as new york's state and new york

state's chief executive to remove the mayor from office. oddly, in new york state, the governor does have that power to remove the mayor of new york city. today, she met with key city leaders for a discussion about that. tomorrow, the federal judge that's been overseeing the adams case has ordered both the mayor and federal prosecutors to appear before him in court and explain the rationale for asking that these charges be dismissed. that could end up being anything from a, you know, pro forma hearing to a real opportunity for that judge to grill the prosecutors about why they're taking this extraordinary action of dropping this case, particularly given that there's been all these high profile resignations from the justice department saying this is an unprincipled and potentially illegal thing to do. so we'll be watching that closely. but again, all of this comes amid these these principled resignations from career prosecutors at the justice department. and today we got another one. and this one is unrelated to the eric adams case. denise chung is a veteran

prosecutor. until recently, she was head of the criminal division at the us attorney's office in dc. that's the same office president trump has put under the auspices of a defense lawyer who was at january 6th himself, and whose clients included january 6th defendants. today, denise chung, a career prosecutor in that office, the head of its criminal division, resigned. nbc news reporting tonight, quote, veteran federal prosecutor resigns over bank freeze order from trump appointee. bank freeze order. in her resignation letter, chung wrote that she was asked to review documentation to open a criminal investigation into whether a contract had been unlawfully awarded during president biden's administration. the washington post was first to publish the resignation letter. in the letter, miss chung said that she did not believe there was sufficient evidence to freeze bank assets in this matter and that she lacked the legal authority to do so. she apparently was never the last nevertheless ordered to do it.

she says she was then asked for her resignation by nbc news reporter ryan riley asked d.o.j. for comment on that resignation. the justice department responded by saying this, quote, refusing a basic request to pause an investigation so officials can examine the potential waste of government funds is not an act of heroism, just a failure to follow the chain of command. it's unclear what they mean when they say a basic request to pause an investigation, since denise chung says she was actually ordered to launch an investigation, not pause one if the administration can order prosecutors to use the criminal justice system to shut down programs, they don't like to freeze the assets of people they perceive to be their enemies, even before the courts get a chance to rule on the case that would turn the justice department into a whole new toolset that a power hungry president could use against his political enemies. what should a prosecutor do in that case, if

they believe that bringing such a case, bringing such a criminal matter would be unpredicted, what should they do? today, denise chung decided the only thing to do was resign. joining us now is nbc news justice reporter ryan riley. ryan, thanks for joining us tonight. let me ask if your reporting has advanced beyond what i, what i've just explained or if i got any of that wrong. >> yeah. no, you got it right. but the you know, the one thing that's been a little bit of a new development is the epa investigation that they are launching here, sort of been able to figure out what some of that related to. and it actually comes back. apparently this is according to the press release that was put out by the epa administrator that linked to a video that was filmed by project veritas. so that's james o'keefe's former outlet. that's the video that appears to be at question at the center of this that was passed along. but, you know, what's interesting is that miss chung, denise chung was so steeped, i think, in justice department traditions that, you know, when you read through that letter, there's no direct

reference to who they were actually talking about here, because that's very much in keeping with justice department protocol keeping within, you know, the four corners of your of the document you're filing. you're not referencing someone who is not alleged to have committed any criminal activity. in that paperwork. and she knew probably that that, that that letter would get more widely distributed. and so she even followed those protocols there. so, you know, that's something that having been for 24 years at the justice department is obviously very important to her and sort of a core part of who she is as a person. >> but just to bear down on this and get to the nub here, i think particularly for people who aren't lawyers, who aren't necessarily steeped in what justice department protocol is, what she's saying is i was ordered by political appointees to bring a criminal investigation that is not warranted by the facts and part as part of bringing that criminal investigation. they wanted me to seize assets in a bank account, even though there's no reason to bring a criminal investigation, which

would warrant such an extreme step. that's that's basically what she's laying out, even though she's doing it in very lawyerly terms, as the grounds for which her resignation, she thought was, was warranted. >> yes, precisely. i mean, the shorter version of it was the first she was asked to launch this investigation. and they're like, whoa, we don't actually care about all that that much. the important part is freezing the assets. but the problem is, is that you need that first part in order to have that second part, right. you don't talk about freezing someone's assets unless there's probable cause. and what you have here is the government. what she was requested to do was send a letter, you know, from the fbi or from the u.s. attorney's office in that case that if the fbi refused to do so, saying, ordering, ordering a bank, that's the key part. ordering a bank to freeze the these assets. when she knew upon reviewing the evidence that there was not probable cause that a crime had been committed, this was, you know, always going to be a little bit of a stretch of an investigation. and especially with ed martin at the helm, who's shown himself to be, you know, somewhat of a concierge, a prosecutorial concierge service

for, you know, elon musk or whoever, you know, donald trump asked him to sort of go after i think that that's what she was sort of concerned about ultimately here that this is, you know, this was another one of these orders. you know, ed martin just hasn't gained the respect of the of the office. you know, there's even an email a few weeks ago in which he had left his gloves sitting around the office at some point. and there's one of these interoffice emails saying who left their gloves here? and it turned out to be ed martin. but that's, you know, there's he's gone after it time and time again and shown he's willing to go after sort of the president's enemies, including on late friday when he posted on his official account, which he set up separately from his his main ex account, saying that he was going that to save their papers. speaking about jack smith, as well as a private law firm that had offered him pro bono legal services during his tenure as special counsel. so what you're talking about here is someone who's really targeting directly, individuals who have sort of come on to donald trump's radar. rachel.

>> yeah. and it's one thing to threaten to be a concierge prosecution service for the president's enemies, as you put it. it's another thing to actually be the prosecutor who has to demand that a bank seize assets when there's no factual predicate for that investigation that would lead to such a step. i mean, that's something that a judge will eventually review. and that prosecutor would ethically and professionally be on the hook for that, regardless of whether or not the u.s. attorney told him to do it. i mean, what they're asking these folks to do, i imagine this is not going to be the last resignation we hear about. nbc news justice reporter ryan riley, thanks for helping us understand this tonight. i really appreciate it. >> no problem. thanks for having me. >> and actually, i'm the one who left the gloves there, so i'll be i'll be back. i'm going to go be i'll be back. i'm going to go pick got an itchy throat from allergies? claritin liquid provides powerful, all-day allergy relief in an instantly soothing liquid. for relief of even your most irritating symptoms, like an itchy throat.

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knows? it was a surprise to them when they had to close. today, as you're getting ready to file your taxes, looking forward, hopefully to a tax refund. i hope. senior officials at the irs have reportedly identified 7500 irs employees for possible firing right now, less than eight weeks from when taxes are due. usa today offering its readers today this advice, quote, irs cuts, may mean refund delays and long waits. file early before potential cuts, cpas say. while all that has been playing out in the news today, there's also the matter of what exactly is happening at the social security administration, at the washington post and nbc news. it was reported last night that the acting head of the social security administration had suddenly resigned after some kind of clash with elon musks team over access to sensitive data in the social security system. now, this story again

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foundational thing for literally tens of millions of americans. joining us now is martin o'malley. he was social security commissioner during the biden administration. we called him today about these concerns that we learned about this weekend with the head of acting, head of social security administration resigning, apparently in some sort of clash over access to data and systems at the social security administration, access that the people who are demanding it apparently weren't supposed to have. mr. o'malley, it's really nice to see you. thanks tonight. thanks for being with us tonight. >> good to be with you again, rachel. >> wish it weren't under these circumstances. so how. >> do you. >> want to unpack this? >> do do you know what the doj's group was trying to access at social security? that would have caused the administrator to resign? >> yeah, i. >> would imagine that they were trying to go after personal identifying information on all of us. i mean, this is an agency. that collects a lot of data. >> every job we've ever. >> had since our very first job.

they keep track of those earnings. >> and they're. >> a lot of laws in place that protect the privacy of that information. in fact, the very. first regulation social security ever issued back in 1934 when fdr signed it. >> into being. >> was a promise. the american people, we would protect their personal identifying information. so one of the things i learned in leading the great men and women at social security who, by the way, are serving more and more customers every day with staffing that house republicans have reduced to a 50 year low. but one of the things i learned about the culture of the place was that the folks there really take very seriously their. duty to protect our personal identifying information. so it does not surprise me at all that michelle king, who i know very well and who i served with a woman beyond reproach, a career civil servant who loves the agency and believes in the. mission that she would not be. allow herself

to be an accomplice to any violation of law or the sacred duty that she's been taught her whole life. >> to abide by. >> which is to protect people's personal identifying information. i mean, that's a firable offense at the agency. no doubt, michelle and her role as being the person that oversaw operations. when i was commissioner of social security for president biden, she probably had to dismiss employees for browsing. you know, looking at the personal. data of other people. and that was also something that we would. >> you know. >> not infrequently. >> refer to. >> the inspector general for possible criminal prosecution. but now we. >> can't do. >> that because the president's whacked all of them in. >> the first week. >> given the regulatory structure and the statutory structure that you just described, is this actionable? if they've improperly accessed this information, is that the basis for legal action against

anybody who's done it? >> oh. >> i think so. >> i mean, these laws came into place. let's keep in mind. after 1974 and the abuse of power in watergate, which in hindsight looks almost kind of quaint compared. >> to the. >> shredding of the constitution that we see every day happening. by the president's mosque and, and trump and, and their utter disregard for laws and, and norms. so i would think it. >> would. >> be actionable, except for the fact that he controls the fbi and the prosecutorial powers that should bring it to action. but perhaps creative lawyers will find a way to call the question in front of a court. you know, the real threat to this agency and what's going to crater it, though, rachel, is actually reducing its staff to even lower than the 50 year low that it finds itself in right now. and i don't know if it's their plan to. crater it. or if

they're just so. ignorant of how stressed it is that they don't realize they could interrupt benefits. and let's keep in mind, these are lifelines for 72.5 million americans or and half of all seniors living alone depend entirely on social security. so i do believe this will probably be the first beloved program by americans that these boys. >> break. >> and they're on their way. >> to doing. >> it by driving people out of the agency. >> only got about a minute left here, mister. molly. i'm sorry for that, but i just wanted to get your reaction to the claims by the president's top campaign donor and now today by the president himself, that social security has millions of fraudulent recipients, millions and millions and millions of fraudulent dollars going out the door every day. what's your reaction. >> to that? >> total horse hockey. there are. >> not, like, cadavers. >> wandering all around the continental. united states with

social security benefit checks flowing out of their pockets. this is totally untrue. they spew stuff and they throw things because of the nitwit 19 year olds that don't understand the program or its database or its. cobol technology. and they just spew this stuff. so i say put up or shut up. you know, if you actually have the names of the 1250 year old people who are receiving benefits, put them up. they don't have any privacy rights. and so come on. it's total. >> martin o'malley, who is social security administrator under the biden administration, sir. thank you very, very much. that's going to do it for me tonight. i will see you all again tomorrow night and every night this week at 9 p.m. eastern. in the meantime, you can find me at blue sky at msnbc.com. but now it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening lawrence. >> good