xfinity internet customers, cut your mobile bill in half for your first year with xfinity mobile. plus, ask how to get the new samsung galaxy s25+ on us. how much you can save. >> tonight's last word, thanks to senator sheldon whitehouse, is trump servants. the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now. >> tonight, d.o.j. targets the pentagon. >> elon musk's. team now focusing on military spending as the defense secretary considers firing top generals. then president trump ratchets up attacks on ukraine's leader, calling president zelensky a dictator after blaming ukraine for russia's invasion. and a judge grills a top doj prosecutor about the move to drop a corruption case against

new york's mayor. as the 11th hour gets underway on this wednesday night. good evening once again, i'm stephanie ruhle, and welcome to the midweek nightcap. it is day 31 of the second trump administration. i know you feel like you've aged six years, but it's only been 31 days. and on this day, d.o.j. has hit the defense department. nbc news reports its employees arrived at the pentagon earlier this week, but the agency has not shared their names or what exactly they're doing there. and defense secretary pete hegseth is considering firing generals as early as next week. meanwhile, tension between the u.s. and ukraine is escalating after president trump called ukrainian president zelensky a dictator. that comment, as well as his earlier suggestion that ukraine should not have started the war, has spurred a handful of senate republicans to distance themselves from the leader of their party, vice president jd vance. on the other hand, you know what he did double down in an interview with

a conservative outlet earlier today. he said zelensky's public response to president trump's criticism was, quote, disgraceful. the ukrainian president had said that trump had been caught in a web of disinformation from russia over the war in ukraine. we've got a lot to cover, so let's get smarter. with the help of our nightcap tonight. abby livingston is here, congressional correspondent for puck news. democratic strategist joel payne. he's a senior aide for hillary for america and press secretary for former senator harry reid, former new york congressional candidate and journalist john avalon. he hosts the bulwark podcast, how to fix it with john avalon, which means it's a podcast that never, ever ends. and paul rieckhoff joins us, founder and ceo of independent veterans of america and co-founder of the american veterans for ukraine. welcome to you all. but paul, i have a really basic question. this idea that pete hegseth is potentially going to get rid of some top generals. can you just fire generals? is that how it works? like, in my mind, i feel like

they're there forever. >> he can unfortunately, and we've long been wondering how long it will take before he gets rid of the chairman of the joint chiefs, cq brown, who is in a really important place to be in the same spot that general milley was in, to be a guardrail against trump and their extreme agenda. but i think what the last couple of days in 24 hours has really brought to bear is that the pentagon is the focal point. it is the tip of the spear for everything that trump wants to do and the tip of the spear for his culture war. that's why he nominated a highly effective culture warrior like pete hegseth. that's why their priorities have been attacking dye, banning trans people, banning the press, banning books in department of defense schools, everything that they want to do in america, they're going to start with at the pentagon. and that's, of course, the most dangerous place of all, because we've got nukes, we've got alliances, and we've got global conflict around the world. so this should be the focal point for all americans because it's the focal point for trump right now. >> the thing is, defense has

always been a huge part of the federal budget, and republicans have usually been okay with that. what do you think doge is specifically looking for when it comes to budget cuts? because that's different from culture war. >> well, it might not be. they're probably going to look for anybody who has any kind of association with dei or diversity. they could be looking for folks like veterans who have been recently hired and are under probationary status, because every time they do a cut, one thing i want to emphasize is 30% of all federal workers are veterans. so the problem here at the pentagon is that doge hasn't exactly been a scalpel. they've been running rampant across every agency in the federal government at the va. they just fired 1000 people, including about a dozen people who work at the veterans crisis line. so if they take that kind of approach to the pentagon, this is literally the most dangerous scenario we could have where they fire people indiscriminately, they fire people in vital roles that are touching national security, and they themselves are unvetted. we don't know where their alliances are. we don't know who they've colluded with. and it's not out

of the realm of possibility to wonder, hey, maybe they have something to do with russia, given the conversations that are happening from the president in the last 24 hours. so who are they? what are they doing? what's their mandate and mandate, and what kind of transparency will the american people have? because this is literally as high as the stakes can possibly get. >> speaking of transparency, elon musk has always claimed to be this free speech warrior. transparency is everything. but the claims he's making that doge has uncovered billions in waste and cuts to be made. where? what's the actual evidence? >> well. >> he's been wrong and he's been off by major, major numbers. and this is. but the question is, is does this get back to american voters, given how convoluted the media ecosystem is? but this is just i just want to underscore i don't hear about republicans cutting the pentagon. i've covered capitol hill for a very long time, and there is never enough money for republicans with the pentagon budget. and this is just truly a watershed moment in the republican party right now. >> i mean, look.

>> i know you're weighing. >> in on that. >> i mean, in two, you know, two years ago, when biden put out a budget that had a 3% increase, republicans slammed it, said it was woefully inadequate. so this. >> is. >> woefully inadequate. >> woefully inadequate. that was a 3% increase, not a proposed 8% cut. and so this does is just a complete reversal of the roles. and it's a test of sort of whether republicans are going to abandon yet another long standing, principled position out of fealty to donald trump. there's plenty of room to focus on increased efficiency in government. the gao did a report a couple of years ago saying there was a quarter billion, you know, you know, 250 billion up start there. but this what's really sinister isn't just, you know, looking for savings in the pentagon. as paul said, this is about whether they start firing generals and whether they use loyalty litmus tests to do that. that becomes very dangerous and something very different than what we've seen in our democracy. >> yeah. i mean, stephanie, look, this is all, as john kind of alluded to, i feel like it's

a test of what trump can get republicans to do. he is these. >> days. >> and he is pushing the boundaries and the limits as far as he can. but as we're talking about this, the one person who i can imagine is going to sleep somewhere in moscow very happy tonight is vladimir putin. think about the week that vladimir putin had. donald trump is talking about making key cuts to defense. you've got folks like pete headset, the defense secretary, the vice president, jd vance, capitulating, mocking, mimicking his talking points, things that he has been trying to pass through, misinformation you have coming through the mouth of the vice president, the defense secretary and the president. i mean, if you have vladimir putin, you have to wonder why, why, why is the western hemisphere smiling on you all of a sudden? >> well, paul. >> i'm guessing you would agree. it's been a putin party all week. >> oh, absolutely. this is a fantastic banner week for vladimir putin. and not just for vladimir putin, but our enemies around the world are celebrating. i mean, the commander in chief completely

sold out ukraine. and i think it's really important any time any rational, patriotic american has a chance to speak in the media, to let the world know. donald trump does not speak for most americans on ukraine. neither does jd vance. neither does pete hegseth. most americans support ukraine. most americans understand that the ukrainians are heroes, and they're holding the line for democracy around the world. most people understand that vladimir zelensky is a hero, a transformative leader who has been fighting for all of us and for all of us who care about freedom. and donald trump does not speak for most americans, and definitely not for most american veterans who understand the stakes. and you cannot rewrite. history will defend our honor. we will defend our country's promises, and we will defend the truth. and that includes, if we have to defend it from the commander in chief and the president of our own country. >> well, who. >> does jd vance speak for? because bret stephens wrote an op ed in the new york times today obliterating jd vance, his speech at the munich security conference. and he wrote this. an american vice president went

to munich to carry on about his idealism while breaking bread with those who would obliterate democratic ideals, a disgrace. what do you think about that? >> it's a disgrace. and brett brett's column is right. but i think, you know, this is where we really need to keep the eye on what's important, not just what's urgent this week. >> oh. >> my. >> gosh, you need to say that again. >> we need to keep an eye on what's important. not just what's urgent. and what's important is that the president of united states had to pivot to putin this week, putting the united states on the same playing field, on the same side as moscow. that is a complete reversal of the role we have traditionally played with bipartisan support. and as jonathan lemire has got an article in the atlantic about how the party of reagan has sold out to vladimir putin. this is something that is should be chilling to people who are paying attention. it is orwellian to describe zelensky as a dictator and refuse to criticize vladimir putin. language does matter. and if you do have a disinformation bubble where the president united

states is parroting russian talking points, but there's a strategic alliance is being rewritten to put the united states on the same side as an autocratic aggressor. that is not where we want to be. that is not who we are. it is not where we've been in the past. and it's a disgrace if republicans are silent about this. >> just to just to that point. i mean, this is an assault on the post-world war two order. and i know that sounds like gobbledygook coming out the beltway, but just to bring it home to people, this means that instead of being able to rely on a nato alliance that keeps us out of foreign entanglements, that keeps american troops off the ground, and god knows where far flung parts of the world. it means that you can use strategic soft power to prevent american troops from having to be deployed across the world. donald trump has, in a matter of weeks, taken a hatchet to all of the work that has been done to make sure that the american people do not have to waste treasure and blood across the country, or rather, across the

world, just to keep us safe. and i don't know if many of his voters, particularly those who will probably be most likely to be the ones that have to defend his terrible policy, understand what exactly he did. >> but this goes. >> back to your original point. they might not know what's really happening, right? donald trump is out there saying that vladimir zelensky's approval rating is 4%. the last time they checked in, in early february, it was 57%. that's the truth. now it's gone down since the war started. but, but but donald trump's end goal is i'm going to spread this misinformation. so the truth that you're telling about the state of the world, you've got millions of americans that don't even know the truth because all they hear is right wing media. they live in a news desert, and there's trump out there saying he's got a 4% approval rating, a flat out lie. >> well, and on top of that, he's pushing out that ukraine started the war and we all saw it with our own eyes. the invasion three years ago. right now, it's just like the insurrection. it's that we memory hold these things and we don't even remember what we see.

>> but no, we do. donald trump doesn't. so let's be let's be clear about that, right? i mean, we for the president of united states to say that the country that was invaded is the one that started the war is a willful rewriting of history. it's not a purely a matter of ignorance, and it doesn't speak for us as americans or the world. it's not that we've been memory holed, it's that the president's trying to preach an alternate fact version of history, which huge geo strategic implications. and this is something that is about decades of work of americans in the wake of the second world war, democrats and republicans working together, being abandoned. and it's a lie. and this is not partizan. this is simply about fidelity to the truth. it is true that russia invaded ukraine. that is not open to debate or filtering through alternate facts. >> john, i think a lot of americans agree with you that quinnipiac poll that came out today that said that 81% of the american people do not trust vladimir putin. so that means donald trump is has taken a 2080 issue. really? it said only 9%

believed or trusted putin. so he is with 9% of people. in a poll that trust vladimir putin, donald trump believes vladimir putin more than anyone else in the world. he believes it more than our own intelligence agencies. he believes it more than folks like roger wicker, who's the republican chair of the armed services committee. it's disgraceful. but i will say he starts at a deficit because the american people aren't with him here. >> paul, take us to our nato allies, take us out of the united states because the rest of the world has watched donald trump shift our foreign policy, which could, in fact, back to joel's point, honestly shift the world order. and they've watched him do it with very little pushback here. where do you think things are headed, paul? i mean, what are our allies thinking tonight? what are they planning? >> they don't trust us anymore. and i think it's really important that we put a point on this. what donald trump is doing is victim shaming ukraine. he's doing it because it's something he's done his whole life, and it's been very effective for him. but that's what he's doing.

it's geopolitical victim shaming. what we have to remind people is that the russians are the bad guys, and that ukraine is the good guys. and if we side with the russians, the world will view us, the americans, as the bad guys. and that's what's at stake here. the world is losing confidence in america. they're losing confidence in our military. they are afraid of our leadership and patriotic americans who know the truth, who know who the good guys and bad guys are and need to speak up now in whatever forum you have, whether it's national media or your local coffee shop, and speak the truth and explain that america has always been the good guy. but that is at stake right now because of that man on your screen right now. >> you know who knows the truth. republicans on the hill and lots of republicans on the hill are still pro nato, pro ukraine. and what it seems like publicly, they're saying despite having these feelings going against donald trump publicly will only backfire. what are you hearing on the hill? >> i mean. >> i think there's an immense amount of frustration, but i don't know how you get any republican to oppose trump on

anything at this point, and we'll talk about it later. but members are about to be voting against their own constituents interests, let alone international consequences. i genuinely wonder sometimes why these people keep running for reelection. >> i will say this. i do think political gravity does still exist. i mentioned roger wicker earlier, the republican chair of the armed. >> i don't know if. >> political gravity. >> means political gravity to m, means this. donald trump and republicans are still susceptible to pressure because roger wicker called pete hegseth after he made those ridiculous comments in munich about ukraine and about redlines and giving things away to vladimir putin in public and walked it back. and i guess what that tells me is pressure works. it doesn't mean it's the solve or the catch all for everything, but it means you can't disengage from the pressure. i take your point. i do think that republicans are still susceptible to good old fashioned pressure. >> do you think they're going to face new topic, different pressure, right. when you see all these members of congress go home and they have to face their

constituents, the acts of doge, while it's happening in dc right now, is starting to make its way through the country. right. tomorrow we are going to see doge. we're going to see a move where they're going to go into the irs, which is already chronically underfunded. they've got antiquated technology, and they're potentially looking to get rid of 6000 employees. now, when the inflation reduction act gave additional money to the irs, what did they do? they went out and collected an additional billion dollars from some wealthy citizens who were not paying their taxes. and the new doge plan is to cut people from the irs just before we have to file our taxes. aren't people going to notice and complain to their lawmakers when, 21 days after they file electronically, which we tell them all to do, they don't get their refunds in time? >> i think the downstream effects of these decisions are going to affect in so many different areas. people will lose their jobs. people could lose their, you know, money to buy food. but if you're one of the most privileged people in america and you have a very easy

life and you're watching what's happening, you're still probably going to have to worry about your credit being jeopardized if there's, you know, an fettered access to social security numbers, there are going to be, at a minimum, inconveniences to the average american. >> i do have to say this, though. this whole thing is about donald trump, elon musk and republicans being able to pay for these trillion dollar tax cuts like the whole thing. and i kind of think it's funny. i'm a, you know, like the usual suspect, kaiser. so say, you know, what is he actually trying to do? the thing is, right there in front of us. he's taking money from key programs that we all rely on. he's taking money from head start, taking money from the irs, from the feds, and it's all being done so that donald trump and republicans can deliver on more tax cuts, trillions of dollars of tax cuts for folks who don't need them. >> okay, call me a simpleton, but donald trump is now surrounded by elon musk and all sorts of other tech luminaries. what are one of the biggest shortcomings or failures we have in our government? we have

antiquated technology, specifically in the irs, right? the systems they use in the irs are decades old. if donald trump has these great relationships with these tech stars, wouldn't the best use of their efforts is to actually use their skills to upgrade the technology this government uses across the board? >> i think it's important to understand what people think of themselves. right. and so i think one of the rationalizations they're using is that they're going to come in and have a technological revolution in the distribution of government services, right? that is the story they're telling themselves. the problem is when you're firing people who are nonpartisan civil servants, who are experts at what they do, you have a cascading, unintended consequences that gets in the way of government delivering basic services. when you get things like, you know, firing people who are overseeing the nuclear stockpile and having to return them or. >> return them. >> lost their phone number. >> yeah, exactly. >> you know, today, you know, 20% of the 911 world trade center health fund cut, these start to really impact people's lives. cuts to the department of

veterans affairs. we'll see what happens at the pentagon. is there room for cutting funding, greater efficiency in government? yes. is there room for actually improving the technological delivery of services for the 21st century? absolutely. is that what's being pursued here? it does not seem to be the primary concern. it may be to pay for the tax cuts that we're discussing. but it's also i think it's about a power grab that is unprecedented, if indeed, you know, people's tax information is being accessed. that is a privacy concern unlike something we've ever seen. >> but isn't that something people don't notice? >> well, here's what. >> they do, because i think people give a damn. >> about it. >> just just relate it to this really quickly. i also think that part of the strategy here is to starve government of the resources it needs to deliver for people. so guess what? >> government sucks. >> and if government continues to suck, people will continue to think that if government sucks, it's not worth saving. it's not worth saving democracy. it's not worth saving government. so to me, along with the grift, it's

actually to starve the government of what it needs to deliver for people. >> all right. we have to take a commercial break. my producers are going to kill me. but, paul, we're leaving you after this. so i want to give you the last word. i heard you were trying to chime in. >> this is not about tax cuts. this is about power. this is about seizing the levers of power. that's what they're doing right now. they're not concerned about the midterms. they're not concerned about reelection. they're concerned about grabbing the levers of power so they can force forward a total transformation of the culture and the government. and i'm not putting any faith in the democrats or the republicans, but i do have faith in the american people, and they're about to hit that guardrail by laying off millions of americans in communities around the country. this is like barack on steroids. 30% of them are veterans, and they are going to speak up. and if somebody is going to save us right now, it's not the democrats or the republicans, it's the american people. >> see, i knew you should have had the last word. the nightcap is sticking around. paul, great to see you when we return. new york city mayor eric adams corruption case could be headed

for dismissal, but it doesn't mean those charges cannot come back to haunt him in the future and later. a very rare look into the murdochs and the war for the family media empire at fox. our friend mckay coppins is here with that. the 11th hour just getting underway on a wednesday night. >> for people with diabetic nerve pain of the feet. it's time for great feats. help get them with the only topical prescription treatment approved to help reduce diabetic nerve pain of the feet. great feet, the day to day ordinary things that seem extraordinary when your feet feel better is different. one 30 minute application in your doctor's office can provide up to three months of diabetic foot pain relief. a healthcare provider must apply. q10. q10 can cause severe irritation of eyes, mucous membranes, respiratory tract and skin pain. severe burns and reduced sensation may occur where applied during and after treatment. most common

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1-800-403-7539. that's 1-800-403-7539. >> donald trump is. >> defending the mass firings of federal watchdogs. >> our federal. >> government now can discriminate against the citizens of the country. >> we are. >> all watching and waiting to see who is going. >> to hold. >> the line. don't miss the weekends, saturday and sunday mornings at. >> 8:00 on msnbc. >> we're going to start with breaking news on capitol hill. >> mounting questions over the future of tiktok in the us. >> reporting from. >> philadelphia. >> el paso. >> and. >> the palisades, virginia. >> from msnbc world headquarters here in new york.

turn up the volume. put down your drink and focus. after a highly anticipated hearing today, everybody in this town was watching. a judge delayed a decision on whether to dismiss mayor eric adams corruption case. the acting attorney general pushed for the charges to be dropped, arguing that the case made it hard for the mayor to address the white house's immigration concerns. the effort to dismiss the case has caused an uproar at the department of justice, leading to many resignations. a total of eight prosecutors. my nightcap is still here. along with katie honan, reporter for the city and host of the podcast faq nyc. katie, you are our expert. you have been reporting on every inch of this. give us the latest. what do we need to know? >> so the mayor was in court this morning, this afternoon with his lawyer and as well as emile beauvais. they face judge dale ho, who wanted to hear from them about why they want his case dropped. his five count federal indictment on bribery and corruption and all that kind of stuff. the trial was supposed to start april 21st, and now it

won't. the judge did not make an immediate ruling. he said he didn't want to shoot from the hip. he wanted to take some time with it. he said he would have a ruling in print at some point, but he really wanted to hear from the mayor, and he wanted to hear from his lawyer about why the case is dropped. you know, the mayor took the stand, and he addressed questions from the judge on whether he understood what without prejudice means. again, that means he could they could bring the charges back up whenever they feel like it at any point. and as you noted earlier, a lot of people view what the doj memo says, as it's not that the charges were without merit, it's that they are impeding eric adams from helping president trump do whatever president trump wants him to do, and. >> which has nothing to do with what the charges are. but the judge said, i want to make sure i get it right, that he has very little discretion to interfere with the doj. so if he can't really do anything, is this headed for dismissal? >> it appears it could, you know, it could be. i think he i took some notes here with what judge dal-ho could do. there's not a lot. and as you note, he doesn't have he does have

limited discretion. but i think it being dropped without prejudice means they can bring it up in november. if the mayor loses the primary, loses the general. the mayor could no longer be mayor at the end of the year. and at that point, president trump might not need anything from him anymore and the charges could be brought up. i will point out that danielle sassoon, who quit last week in protest, she said a superseding indictment was coming. they had more evidence that they were ready to unveil that they didn't get the chance to. so i think a lot of people would love to see more of that evidence and to see what can happen with eric adams. but i will say again, he has to win a primary. he has to win a general. and i think those are real issues coming up for him in the next few months. >> all right. john mayor adams has obviously refused to resign, but arguably he could still get forced to exit the role either by an inability committee, which is like, i never heard of that before and i absolutely love it. or hochul, the governor herself could tell him to bounce. what do you think is going to happen? >> inability committee, as currently constituted, is basically new york city's equivalent of the 25th amendment. right. it's basically someone is incapacitated, so

it's not set up to remove someone for corruption. the governor has. >> i mean, how are they going to say he's incapacitated? >> they're not. i mean, i think at the end of the day now, the comptroller who's also running for mayor sits on that committee and he's pushing for it. the second thing is the governor does have a overly broad, never used before power to remove a mayor. this is unprecedented for it to go forward. if we had jimmy walker removed for corruption essentially in the 1920s, that led to the fiorello laguardia. but there was a larger investigative process run by. >> 100 years ago. >> more or less. yeah. and but there's not time for that right now. there's a primary in june. so, look, i'm chairman of citizens union of new york, which is new york's oldest good government group. today, we took an unprecedented step to call for mayor adams to resign, and if not, he resigned, then him to be removed. but more importantly, we need to also get processes in place to deal with the situation like this mayor adams has had for right now. there's not a way for new york city to address a corrupt mayor and remove him. >> doesn't that seem strange in

new york. >> city, given. >> our history, that. >> just saying it. >> wouldn't be in place? >> yeah, it does. and so, you know, those things need to be reformed. they need to be addressed. but look, we had four deputies, four of his own deputy mayors resigned last weekend because they said they could not support him anymore. the daniel sassoon, when she quit, she said there was a quid pro quo explicitly requested by the mayor from the doj. and the doj today came up with new rationales for why you should the case. and you've had, as you said, eight prosecutors resign over this. so this has every appearance of a quid pro quo of the mayor putting his self-interest ahead of the public interest and basically saying, i'll do whatever donald trump says in order to keep my, you know, you know, keep my out of jail. excuse me. and that's that's the underlying issue here. >> joe, what do you. >> think here? i mean, could one of the reasons eric adams stays in that position is because donald trump wants him there. and if he were to step down, could donald trump then turn around and say, oh, we're done protecting you, stephanie.

>> i'm just a simpleton from right across the river in new jersey. i don't know how we all do things over here in new york city. well. >> how. >> do you think. >> this is all. >> going to turn out? >> why would you not be able to do your job while being held accountable in the criminal justice system? i don't quite understand that. no one's made that case to me clearly. why would donald trump need to dismiss the charges against him for him to do his job? i mean, if his job is to execute the duties of the mayor, which includes holding people accountable if they break the law, why would you need to do that? this is not about that. this is about donald trump being able to wield power over a local official like eric adams, being able to pull the strings whenever he needs to. because, as katie said, as soon as donald trump doesn't need eric adams, he's going to drop him like a bad habit. >> wield power in his original home town, a town that hasn't treated him well ever. what? what is what stands out to you in all of this? >> that point exactly is what part of this is fascinating to

me. i think hochul is such an interesting figure here, because i am a self-aware texan, and i will concede new york is the center of the political universe right now because it's trump's hometown, because the house, democratic senate and senate leaders are from new york city. and it's got a consequential delegation. and what i see happening with hochul is one after another. she has these difficult political decisions to make. most of them are unrelated, but she's at the she's the guinea pig for democratic governors looking at how what works, what doesn't work in opposing the president. >> honey, new york isn't the center of the political universe. it's the center of the universe. >> oh. >> period. >> i agree. let's talk about governor hochul and congestion pricing. right? it has been less than a month. she put it in place. you're from long island. i'm guessing you paid that congestion pricing when you came in tonight. trump wants to help everybody on the outside the city and get rid of it. where do you think this is going? >> look, this was not a popular thing the governor did. but in

the month and a half or so, it's been in place. there are signs it's actually reduced traffic, it's reduced, gridlocked and look, you know, the fact that the president did this through his administration, i think also raises is going to be challenged in court. kathy hochul came out swinging, said, we'll see you in court because it does raise questions about whether the federal government can determine what, you know, cities and states do to raise revenue. it needs a lot of exceptions in place. but we were starting to see less traffic and more revenue, which would presumably be put into improving public transportation. so this is not over. i think it may be an overreach by the federal government, but it's another example of sort of the federal government trying to sort of mess with home rule and apparently out of a politics of retribution, posing as populism. it's never popular to raise rates going into cities. it's never popular to raise taxes. but we were starting to see whether this actually worked. and this is not over. but hochul has taken a strong stand, and

she should on this out of the mere principle of not letting the federal government dictate what cities and states can do. >> katie. >> where's this going? >> i think today, governor hochul, it was the strongest she's sounded in her entire tenure. she challenged the president in a way that even yesterday, meeting with leaders about maybe potentially removing the mayor as she seems incredibly weak on that. but this standing in grand central station with a photo of president trump saying, slap cuffs on me, i don't care. she really stood behind the congestion pricing toll, which she initially had put on pause in a political maneuver. i mean, her office would say it was political, but waiting for after the election so they could pick up some seats in some democratic seats. so this was it was really compelling to see that. and again, the legality of it. president trump has done a lot of stuff that doesn't seem legal. the cameras are already up there taking the data anyway. so i think she will fight this. they already have the lawsuit written. so they knew this was coming. he had been saying it was going to come. >> another lawsuit written who won the election? lawyers when

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press, and it was no different for the murdoch family, whose patriarch, rupert murdoch, owns and operates one of the largest media empires in the world. but

in a new interview, murdoch's youngest son, james, is speaking out against his father and the dynasty he spent decades building. it is a story of wealth and betrayal that not even the writers of succession could come up with. so let's bring in mckay coppins, staff writer at the atlantic and msnbc political contributor. what a story. what an interview. mckay first, before you get into your biggest takeaways with james, set the stage for us. they just left court sort of where the family fortune is about to lie, because it's not going the way rupert wants it to. >> yeah. that's right. i mean, the context for this whole story is that in 2023, rupert began working secretly behind the scenes to rewrite the family trust in such a way that would concentrate full control of the murdoch empire with his oldest son, lachlan, rather than splitting it equally among his four oldest children, which has long been the plan. the reason rupert wants to do this and he's

still fighting, although he has had a series of kind of notable defeats in court, is that he believes that his youngest son, james, is plotting to basically seize control of the company as soon as rupert dies, boot lachlan from the corner office. he's currently ceo and chairman of these companies, and then steer the murdoch media outlets in a more liberal, or at least moderate direction. in rupert's view, that would kind of destroy his life's work. now, he has not succeeded so far. a probate commissioner in reno, nevada, which is where this is all playing out. ruled recently that that rupert couldn't do this. he's appealed. the litigation is ongoing. but that that experience for james was really kind of a betrayal, in his view. and i think that it's what liberated him to really open up with me about what he saw and what he seen inside the family business and inside this family

that's been so closely watched for so long, but really has not ever had one of its own members open up in the way that he has. >> and what. >> did. >> he tell you? what were your biggest takeaways? because normally he does not speak. he's not nearly as forthcoming as he has been this time with you. >> yeah. i mean, actually we spoke over the course of a year. we had more than a dozen interviews with him and his wife, catherine. you know, there's the personal side of this, right? like his family is unraveling. and i think it was very painful for him. he talked about the mind games that his father has played, the what he calls his twisted behavior, the way that he has long pitted his his sons, especially against each other. he detailed a family counseling retreat in 2010, where rupert summoned all of his adult children to australia and essentially played them off each other, pitted them against each other. he called it a car crash. but, you know, there are real stakes to this story as well, which is the control of what is,

i think, the most powerful conservative media empire in the world, certainly in the english speaking world, is at stake, right? depending on who wins this battle in court right now, it could determine the direction of outlets like the wall street journal, fox news, some of the biggest british newspapers. and these are outlets that have, you know, campaigned for brexit, propelled donald trump to the presidency. if james and his sisters have their way, these these outlets will change. now, that doesn't mean that they'll become, you know, liberal necessarily, but they will become, if james has his way more responsible, they'll have editorial guardrails. they'll clean up their own internal culture. these are all things that rupert and lachlan have really pushed against. but depending on who wins this battle, it could have real trickle down effect in our politics. >> he believes their media

properties are a threat to democracy. so are he and the two sisters aligned. let's say things get split four ways. what happens next? where does lachlan go and where are things right? how are they all interfacing now? because right now rupert and lachlan run the whole thing. what is james doing day to day? >> yeah, james i mean, has his own investments. he has his own investment firm, but he has left the company. he's not on the board now. but when rupert dies, you know, barring a successful appeal by by him and lachlan, james and his sisters and lachlan will have to split control of the empire. now, this is where james would always get a little bit cagey with me when i would ask about various scenarios, because he rejects the idea that he and his sisters are plotting any kind of coup. at the same time, it is clear if you read the tea leaves, that he and his sisters see things very differently from rupert and lachlan. once rupert dies, you know there's only four of them.

it's easy to count it, you know, at least in the big questions of corporate governance, editorial guardrails, things like that, it would seem like it's 3 to 1 now. james would reject that. there's any kind of scheming going on behind the scenes. rupert believes there is. but, you know, i think that it's easy to see how that majority could be formed and what that would mean for the networks. >> all right. mckay. extraordinary piece. i highly recommend everyone get out there, get the atlantic. read this piece. mckay. good to see you. when we return. trump's anti-media rhetoric is now turning into action. how the press should be covering the president this time around. we're going to need some time for this. >> a heart attack. do they have life insurance? >> no. >> but we have life insurance. john. >> i'm trying to find something we can afford. >> fortunately, in only. >> a few. >> minutes. >> selectquote found john a

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that donald trump loves to have this combative, antagonistic relationship with the press. he did it in his last term. but this this feels different. this is. >> different for a lot of reasons. but i think the key thing for the background to understand is how historically important the ap is. they usually they used to get the first question at briefings. and the reason he's coming at them is because the associated press creates every year a guide that the rest of the news organizations take guidance on, on diction, word choices, what's the appropriate way? so if they can break the ap, that will have a ripple effect with the rest of the press corps. you know, there i can say it is a point of consternation behind the scenes. i've gotten phone calls about it. but the most important thing is i don't know what the right decision for the white house correspondents association is, but they've got to work together. >> what do you think this ban is really about? >> it's about trying to change language and force news organizations to take the knee and change facts and history at the president's whim. the only

guide star for any news organization is the truth. it's not left or right. >> and the truth is not biased. >> and the truth is not biased. now, it may feel that way if you've got a particular rooting interest, but the gulf of mexico has been called the gulf of mexico for over 400 years. donald trump has rebranded it. but anyways, that's a test to see who will take the knee. those news organizations that have taken the knee and renamed it to keep access journalism alive, are not going to look good in the eyes of history. that is cowardice. that is capitulation. the ap is the ultimate nonpartisan news organization. and that is what is under threat. this is not about free speech, folks. this is about the opposite. >> all right, new topic, joel, before we go. the left leaning podcast midas touch has just done the unthinkable, dethroned joe rogan to become the country's most popular podcast. do you see this as a sign of a bigger political shift? because even these three guys specifically, they are not your touchy feely progressives.

they're like three bros from long island. >> yeah. >> look, i think that this does signal one democrats and let's just call it the non conservative ecosystem catching up to where the kind of rogan right has been. >> and they're not policy guys. they're anti-trump guys. they crank it out all day every day. >> and i and i do think the fact that this is organic, this is not a part of the ecosystem that was just built up, you know, with heavy investment from millionaires and billionaires. these are folks who have been grinding and working, and my suspicion is they probably were going to get to this point anyway. but it does, i think, signal where we're groups and where organizations and where candidates on the democratic side are going to focus a lot of their effort going forward. you've got to dominate this space. that's where conversation is. that's where a lot of people get their news is on youtube, online. you have to be present there and you have to have messengers that are fearless and that know how to talk to these folks comfortably and in messy conversations that are often complicated. >> people often say that

democrats don't know how to hit. these guys are hitters. >> yeah, and look, democrats should have the confidence to go anywhere and make a case. we've got a fragmented media ecosystem, so it's good to see a little more political diversity in that. democrats are going to have to play offense and stop just preaching to their choir. right. the essence of evangelism is winning converts. so you got to get out there with the confidence to make a case and not simply play to your base. >> all right. when we return, president trump said ukraine should have never started the war with russia. well, a ukrainian newspaper has set the record straight. >> attention. have you been diagnosed with non-hodgkin's lymphoma after using the weedkiller roundup? >> nearly $11 billion. has already. >> been paid. >> to settle. >> thousands of victims claims. >> and you may be. >> entitled to financial compensation. >> call legal injury advocates now to see if you qualify. >> for a claim against the manufacturer. >> you're not alone in this fight, and there are no upfront

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>> the number. >> on your screen. call 805 9909175. >> all of this can be overwhelming, but it is important to remember there are still checks and balances. there's a lot being thrown at the american people right now and it is really important to pay attention to it, but it is just as important to recognize how many of those things are getting announced. but they're not happening at all, or at least not yet. just try to

remember we are not looking at the final score. we are still in the first quarter. keep your pads on. the game. >> has. >> just begun. >> i think i have the power to end this war and i think it's going very well. but today i heard, oh well, we weren't invited. well, you've been there for three years. you should have ended it three years. you should have never started it. you could have made a deal. >> the last thing. >> before we go tonight. president trump claimed yesterday that it was in fact ukraine that started the war against russia in their country. well, today, the kyiv independent posted an explainer to set the record straight. i'm going to read the piece now for you in its entirety. who started the war in ukraine? russia? i hope that clears up any confusion. i know the president likes to watch tv late night. i hope he's watching. all right, gang. abby. joel. john, thank you all for joining me tonight. and you can catch me on donny deutsch's podcast tomorrow. i'm

on his latest episode when you wake up tomorrow morning. but for now, we are all signing off from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news. thanks for staying up late. i will see. >> you again tomorrow. >> tonight on all. >> in a dictator without elections. zelensky better move fast or he's not going to have a country left. >> bipartisan backlash to donald trump's attack on an american ally. >> do you. >> agree with president. >> trump that he's a dictator? >> i would say. >> that. >> the president's. >> surrender is pathetic. >> and weak. >> tonight, the historic stakes of donald trump's support of vladimir putin. >> there were many people in munich