>> i could have told you that. we're going to. >> start with. >> breaking news. >> on capitol hill. >> mounting questions over the future of tiktok in the us. >> reporting from philadelphia. >> el paso. >> in the palisades, virginia. >> from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. >> msnbc presents a new podcast hosted by jen psaki. each week, she talks to some of the biggest names in democratic politics, with the biggest ideas for how democrats can win again. the blueprint with jen psaki. listen now. >> hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. >> if you need a window today into the republican party's complete capitulation to trump's most dangerous and anti-democratic impulses, their acquiescence to trump this week as he parrots putin's lies about ukrainian president zelensky, is all you need to take in donald

trump openly musing that ukraine, not russia, started the war in ukraine. calling president zelensky. >> an unelected. >> dictator, casually undoing nearly a century of american foreign policy. that that has not led to a stampede. of republicans demanding an audience with the president at the white house to try to persuade trump or vance or anybody else that zelensky is the true american ally. or, as lindsey graham said to zelensky six years ago, to his face, quote, the best kind of ally for fighting russia. so we don't have to. end quote tells you everything. as the cover of the economist puts it, this is, quote, europe's worst nightmare, and it may become america's worst nightmare as well. quickly, americans have gotten very clear, very fast on how they feel about it. 61% of all americans disagree with trump's version of events, which is a lie. they understand that no, it was russia that actually started the war. 81% of americans say

putin should not be trusted, including a whopping 73% of all republicans. and yet and yet, even with this sudden burst of americans saying, no, thank you, we don't want this. we didn't vote for this. trump and his administration show no signs of reconsidering throwing ukraine under the bus and driving america off a diplomatic cliff. reuters is reporting that the u.s, quote, is refusing to co-sponsor a draft un resolution marking three years since moscow's invasion of ukraine. that resolution backs ukraine's territorial integrity and again demands russia withdraw its troops, two sources telling reuters this quote. washington has also objected to a phrase in a statement. the group of seven nations was planning to issue next week that would condemn russian aggression. let that sink in. today, trump's national security advisor warns zelensky

and ukraine to quote, tone it down. j.d. vance said out loud, quote, i really believe we're on the cusp of peace in europe, end quote. and then there was the abrupt and unexplained cancellation of what was supposed to be a joint press conference following a meeting between ukrainian president zelensky and trump's u.s. envoy to ukraine, a meeting in which they were meant to discuss past ending the war that would safeguard ukraine's interests. there was also hope that it might help defuze tensions. it was scrapped. whether any progress was made remains unclear. a news conference scheduled for after the meeting was canceled at the request of the u.s. reporters who had gathered for the news conference were told to go home. washington post is reporting that zelensky and the u.s. envoy stood together not for a press conference, but a photo op. quote. as the cameras clicked around the two men, zelensky responded to the question on how he was doing by describing himself in a quote, fighting spirit. fighting spirit might be

the only thing that stands between us and total capitulation. here's how former republican congressman adam kinzinger puts it today. quote. there was a time, not too long ago, when america stood as the beacon of freedom, the defender of democracy, the steadfast ally of those who resisted oppression. yet today, as they watch the behavior of our political leaders, the comments of an ever increasingly unhinged trump, and the growing indifference of many americans toward our role in the world, i have to ask a painful question are we now the bad guys? the shift isn't just concerning. it's dangerous. the world is watching. our allies in europe and asia are questioning whether they can count on us, whether america still means what it says. our adversaries, putin, xi and every dictator with territorial ambitions are licking their chops, waiting for america to fully turn inward, to abandon its role as the leader

of the free world. so i ask again, are we the bad guys? end quote. all right, that's where we start today with bill browder, ceo of hermitage capital management and head of the global magnitsky justice campaign, which seeks to expose corruption and is named in honor of a kremlin critic, sergei magnitsky, who died in a russian prison. we wanted to talk to you for days now, and it feels like all of this is as public facing as it's been both trump's embrace of putin's view of the war in ukraine, of course, started by putin and the republican party's complete capitulation to things they said 48 72 hours ago. when it comes to how they see putin the way a lot of ways similar to how how normal people, how you and i see putin, but nothing, not a word, not a peep, not a meeting, not a face to face with trump to slow this down. where are we heading? >> we're heading to a not good

places, is. my prediction. we have a really an unbelievable situation. i mean, the one that particularly got me was the us as a member of the g7. doesn't want to call out russian aggression on the third anniversary of the war. i mean, it's that's not a very hard thing to do. and that's something that everybody has done that's sort of stating the obvious. and so i'm very worried. i'm very worried for ukraine. i'm very worried for europe, and i'm very worried, as you said, for what this does, to encourage other dictators around the world, because the whole point is that if there is a consequence to putin, then there would be a consequence to the chinese if they wanted to take over taiwan and various other bad actors. and so this is a very worrying moment, and i can only hope that, you know, the circumstances don't turn out as bad as they look at the at this present time. >> just so people understand the significance of refusing to

sponsor a un resolution, which is respect, respectfully, i guess to the un, really just a statement of alliances to refuse to sign on to a un resolution is almost an unnecessary an intentional step to take to step away from ukraine if you wanted to. how is that seen inside ukraine? >> i'm sure that everybody in ukraine right now is just trying to imagine what what their world will be like when russia takes over. i mean, what what's happened effectively in the last well, last week or so is that america has abandoned ukraine somehow. ukraine is the bad guy. the victim is the bad guy and the aggressor is the good guy. and it's just impossible for anybody who cares about ukraine and for anyone who cares about

trying to stop putin to watch this happening in real time from the most powerful country in the free world, the united states. now, the one thing i can say, which perhaps is a tiny bit of comfort, is that when putin invaded ukraine in february of 2022, everybody thought they were a goner, that they would, that the russians would be there in three days and that would be the end of the story. and they fought back valiantly and they fought back hard. and we're now three years into this thing, and they're still russia, still hasn't gotten what they wanted. and so i wouldn't write ukraine off in any way. and i would also point out that while trump may be abandoning ukraine, europe has definitely not abandoned ukraine. and putting aside the hyperbole of trump, europe has actually given ukraine more financial and military support in dollar terms than the united states. and so it's, you know, it's not a binary thing. it's not not not black and white, but it's certainly very troubling if

the united states steps away and sort of gives putin the green light to do whatever he wants over there. >> i've been thinking over the last ten days about covering bucha and about coming on the air and interviewing u.s. national security officials who were in tears, were emotional just talking about bucha and the brutality that the russians carried out against civilians in in bucha. and i think the first year of the ukraine war, i think we learned weeks later that those soldiers who sadistic, i think, doesn't begin to capture it, sadistically tortured and killed. ukrainians were awarded the highest medals by vladimir putin. and i want to read you what's happening in bucha right now from the new york times. quote. bucha has become a notorious symbol of russian brutality. the russians took it over within days of invading. and in the month that followed, they killed more than 400 civilians, according to ukrainian officials, leading to global accusations of war

crimes. images from that time ricocheted around the world. the priests left dead in a garage, his mouth open. the church choir singer and his family, their limbs cut off, their bodies burned. the woman shot dead, pushing her bicycle home. many people in bucha seem to be struggling to take in donald trump's comments. now he's going to help the russians. asked one woman. they destroyed everything here. and now we're supposed to give up? how does that work? then she answered her own question. if america leaves us, we are screwed. end quote. >> yeah. >> what are americans left to think about? about brutality. and about war crimes carried out by someone trump can't cozy up next to fast enough? >> this is a stain on on america. and it's an unbelievable, unbelievable betrayal of freedom loving people who have fought for their freedom, fought for democracy. you know, we're supposed to be

as as you read from that quote from adam kinzinger, the good guys. but now all of a sudden, america is siding with the dictator. it's unimaginable. and i should point out that all those people in bucha and other places, if this happens, if, if, if ukraine is forced into a surrender to putin, they're not going to stick around in ukrain, and europe is going to end up with 15 or 20 million ukrainian refugees fleeing the russian brutality. and that's going to set off a whole new chain reaction of events. it's truly hard to imagine how how everything has changed so dramatically in such a terrible way, in such a short period of time. >> people keep sort of making the point that the collapse of the republicans in congress is what has expedited something that trump has flirted with for ten years now, which is an affinity to be close to putin and be like putin. that video or

that quote from lindsey graham is from six days ago. he sat next to zelensky and interviewed him in munich and said, you are, quote, the best kind of ally because you fight russia, so we don't have to. what do you think happened to the republicans on this issue of ukraine? >> well, i mean, you know, putin punishes. i mean, putin trump punishes everybody who disagrees with him. and i think these people are all, you know, scared. but but the one thing that always amazes me about these politicians is that, you know, in the us has has an armed forces, you know, army, navy, etcetera of a couple million people who are ready to lay down their lives for the country. and you don't have people in congress that are ready to risk their careers for the country. i mean, this is truly like a, you know, a major turning point in, in america. and you would think that that everybody who cared about ukraine and all these people did, and i think they still do need to step up. they

need to step up, and they need to publicly rebuke trump and his administration for doing this, because that's the only way that we're going to stop it is if they if these if this administration sees that that, you know, there there are people standing in their way that people in congress who have power to approve budgets, et cetera, will stand in their way. >> what is russia planning right now if they don't? >> well, russia is sitting there. putin is sitting there, you know, popping open the champagne, dancing the jig. this is the biggest, unbelievable gift from god he could have ever gotten. putin is sitting there just i mean, first of all, if nothing, even if nothing else happens, the fact that that the president of the united states has switched sides and favors him and attacks zelenskyy is just such a great thing. and then, of course, coming in from the cold, putin was an indicted war criminal in the

international criminal court for crimes against humanity. and now all of a sudden, he's being vetted and having summits with the united states. and all these talks between marco rubio and sergey lavrov, where they're talking about investments in russia from american businesses and whatever happens from here. it's the biggest success they could have ever hoped for in russia. this is just just for just today, just from from where we stand today. putin has gotten so much, so much more than he could have ever hoped for. >> and what ways do you think americans will first see the consequences of abandoning all of the post-world war two alliances that have kept us safe? >> well, i think that, first of all, the relationship with all the allies is going to disintegrate. the europeans are all scratching their heads, thinking we thought we were all together in this, in this transatlantic partnership. but but that doesn't seem to be the

case. and of course, there's going to be a moment when the united states needs allies. i don't know where and how, but the united states will need its allies, and they won't be there because america has abandoned its allies. and, of course, the other parts of the world where things have been calm because people were afraid of u.s. power, whether it's hard power or soft power, we're going to think they can pretty much do what they want. and of course, the chinese are the ones we need to be watching. it's this this the second, third and fourth order effects of this are hard to even imagine, but they're going to be very negative. >> your voice is one we've been wanting to hear from. thank you. thank you for your candor and for starting us off today. >> thank you. >> joining our conversation, new york times washington investigative reporter mark mazzetti is here. also joining us, former deputy national security advisor to president obama. msnbc contributor ben rhodes is here. ben rhodes ahead

of munich, a lot of national security officials were talking about just the abject weakness that this project's capitulating to putin. it feels like it's taken an even darker turn. i mean, making fools and sort of removing any credibility that men like lindsey graham have on the world stage in munich six days ago and told zelensky, again, you're the best kind of ally the u.s. has to fight our adversaries so we don't have to. feels like a feature, not a bug of this decision. >> yeah. i mean, this is a comprehensive shift across the board, nicole. i mean, i was in munich, too. and if you just think about what happened leading into and out of that, you have the united states essentially capitulating on the core issues, access, saying that russia can will have to keep the territory that they're currently occupying and that, you know, there'll be no nato security guarantee for ukraine. you have jd vance aligning the united

states with the far right in germany. not exactly a place where you want to be doing that. if there's ever a place you want to be doing that, and then you have trump attacking zelensky and parroting russian talking points about who started the war, who is a dictator. this is a 180 degree shift in the u.s. orientation. i mean, not just u.s. foreign policy, just in terms of who does the u.s. stand with around the world? what values, if any, does the u.s. stand for around the world? and what is the u.s. approach to trying to end the war in ukraine? and so, essentially, you know, the ground has shifted completely underneath everybody's feet. and this isn't entirely only possible because of the republican party. you know, the first time around, when trump was president, this was one of the few areas in foreign policy and russia in particular, where there were tangible steps taken by republicans to protect sanctions against russia over ukraine, for instance. this time, nothing. not a word, not a statement, not a peep from any of these people

who have been cases like lindsey graham made a career out of presenting themselves as russia hawks. it makes you wonder why you should see anything that they say about anything as credible. and that includes, by the way, the secretary of state of the united states, marco rubio, who also used to play at being a russia hawk and now is sitting there trumpeting the potential investment opportunities in russia, investment opportunities that are currently illegal because of u.s. sanctions. and so, i mean, the credibility is just nonexistent at this point. >> mark mazzetti, you authored a piece in october that includes this line, the views that trump was developing in 2016 and 17 could, if he returns to the white house, shape policies with profound consequences for the stability of europe, the future of nato and america's relations with russia. all of this coming to pass, as bill browder and ben just pointed out over the last six days. >> yeah. and even then, back in

the fall before the election, you heard the beginnings. of what? of what you're hearing now about trump blaming ukraine for the war. he said in september, right before he met with zelensky in new york, he said something to the effect of, you know, it's his fault that ukraine is destroyed. he could have cut a deal with putin. >> with all. >> the russian troops at the border, and he didn't. and so the destruction of ukraine sort of lies at his feet. i think that, you know, what we're seeing this week is sort of a culmination of really, you know, eight years of trump. trump's thinking on ukraine. if you go back to the first meeting that he had with putin at the hamburg summit in 2017, and sort of a little known notice moment, but it's interesting. trump goes into the meeting armed with all these sort of hawkish talking points towards putin, because he had hawkish advisers, fiona hill

and h.r. mcmaster and rex tillerson. and they were basically, you know, trying to get trump to stick it to putin. trump did nothing during that secret meeting. actually, putin, the old spy master, sort of used his opportunity to sort of sew these thoughts in trump's head about how basically ukraine is an american enemy, not only an american enemy, but an enemy to donald trump because he supported the ukraine, supports the democrats, and supported hillary clinton. and these are the things that sort of built this conspiracy in trump's mind towards ukraine. and after that meeting, tillerson walks out, talks to the advisors and basically said, you know, we got a big problem here. >> putin just did his. >> kgb shtick. so. so this goes this has a history and it's sort of coming to roost right now. >> it's just amazing what what that that's not a useful idiot . tillerson would have described. it wasn't a deterrent for someone. so attached to faux

projections of strength. i need both of you to stick around. much more on this story. also ahead for us, there's harrowing reporting in the new york times this week on migrants who have been deported by the trump administration and then sent to a detention camp in the middle of the jungle in panama. this is what one person described in the times as a, quote, zoo. the fenced cages and dirt floors. also ahead, the trump ally with an enemies list is confirmed to lead the fbi. what that means for the country and the nation's top law enforcement agency already in turmoil. and later in the broadcast, disaster strikes a country deeply divided by conspiracy theories that is the subject of most news cycles, as well as the new netflix series zero day. the creators will join us here at the table. all those stories and more when deadline stories and more when deadline white house continues after a krista, this is like the third year you're 45. screen for colon cancer already! and cancel brunch?! ask for cologuard®.

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five nights a week. >> now is the time. >> so we're going to. >> do it. >> settle in the rachel maddow show weeknights at nine on msnbc. >> what we do is try to cut right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington that day. >> is vladimir putin a war criminal? >> i would not use that term. >> do you believe that vladimir putin and his cronies are. responsible for ordering the murder of countless dissidents, journalists and political opponents? >> i do not have sufficient information to make that claim. >> are you. >> aware that people who. >> oppose vladimir putin wind up dead all over the world, poisoned, shot in the back of the head? and do you think that was coincidental, or do you think that it is quite possible or likely, as i believe, that they were part of an effort to murder his political opponents? >> i am not willing to make conclusions on what is only publicly available or have been

publicly. >> none of. >> this is classified, mr. tillerson. these people. >> are dead. >> what happens to the souls of men who say this out loud? quote i believe it was likely part of an effort to murder his political opponents. quote none of this is classified, mr. tillerson. these people are dead. mark mazzetti. >> yeah, it's a different marco rubio, certainly the and he sort of said it out loud a few days ago about this change. well, you know, i work for the president now and i adopt his views. as mike walsh said, i believe the last few days as well. and fun fact, marco rubio actually was the chairman of the senate intelligence committee that produced to this day, the most detailed and damning report about russia's 2016 election interference and the connections between the trump campaign and russia when he was chairman of the senate intelligence committee. so, yes, that's also a different marco rubio.

>> ben rose, what happens to the souls of men like marco rubio is they go to work for donald trump, but it doesn't explain what happens to the men and women in congress. they are still constitutionally protected from doing their jobs. it's why none of them faced any scrutiny, even for their roles in january 6th. but this is today's reporting about what mr. thune, the senate republican leader, did, quote, the response from republicans on capitol hill has been muted in some cases to the point of silence. while some republicans have expressed dismay at trump's moves and statements, there has been no concerted effort to challenge him from gop leaders or senators. right now, you've got to give him space. senator john thune said after a closed door senate lunch with jd vance. the weekly meeting often provides senators an opportunity to iron out internal disputes. a few senators expressed a desire to use at least part of the time to

press vance about trump's willingness to abandon american allies, draw nearer to putin and denounce zelenskyy as a dictator. but when the time came, the topic did not come up. according to several who attended. that's from today's new york times. your thoughts? >> i mean, what is missing here is the realization that this is not just something that's happening, you know, on truth social or x, right? this is not just donald trump saying outrageous things. these are fundamental shifts in american policy. you know, the white house delegation with the secretary of state met with a russian delegation kind of formally ending three years of russia being isolated over its invasion of ukraine. years of russia being isolated over its invasion of ukraine. a u.s. secretary of defense at a nato ministerial meeting abandoned the position that ukraine has to

be at any conversation about its own future and removed any pretense that ukraine could ever be a nato. these are policy changes that are happening, and these republicans are kind of acting like, well, maybe if i cover my eyes, things might get better in a week or two. no, this is happening in the first month of the trump administration, in full alignment with the united states government and the russian federation's government. that's happening. and these are some of the only people in the world with the power and authority to do anything to get trump's attention right. and they're confirming his nomination. they're going to have to vote for his legislation. they obviously still legally at least have the power of the purse, and they're just fully capitulating. and i think what we've seen with trump is if you capitulate a little, he doesn't back off. he just expects more and more and more loyalty and more and more fealty. so this weakness isn't going to earn them some capacity to influence trump later. it's just going to send the message

that there's nothing he can do that will lead them to even speak up. and it's a complete i mean, we've talked about this for years now, nicole, but the republican party that used to have as a core pillar, a cornerstone of the republican party was kind of opposition towards russia. that that that party does not exist anymore. and it doesn't matter what marco rubio or john thune or any of these people once said in the past. i'll allow myself the indulgence of saying, what if, you know, joe biden or barack obama was doing this with vladimir putin, they'd literally be lighting themselves on fire. that tells you that they just there's no principle there, and that the party is now the donald trump party, which is aligned with the european far right. and people like the afd in germany that were neo-nazis and with people like vladimir putin. and that's just the reality. we have to reorient ourselves. >> to mark mazzetti, you have done an incredible body of reporting all around the world, the world's hotspots. how are they realigning themselves to fit into trump's axis? that

includes, again, i'll quote lindsey graham, you know, you know, a murderous dictator like vladimir putin. >> well, i think everyone's making their own calculations, right? i think european allies and nato are thinking that they need to band together themselves, because the united states can't necessarily be trusted to provide security for europe, obviously. countries in the middle east have their own calculations. saudi arabia is seeing themselves at the center of international diplomacy. saudi arabia did very well under the first trump administration. you would think that they see themselves doing quite well this time around. israel, in its actions, not only in gaza but in the west bank. they see a certain amount of license that they're getting from the trump administration to do things that they and certainly the far right in israel has wanted to do. so it is everyone is gaming things out for themselves and some will

benefit and some will certainly not. and, you know, countries like canada and mexico and very traditional american allies are now having to see themselves sort of fending for themselves for some period of time. >> it's just an extraordinary, extraordinary sort of abandoning of folks who have helped keep us safe. it's amazing. mark mazzetti and ben rhodes, thank you so much for talking it through with us. we're grateful to both of you after the break. for us, the trump administration's effort to redefine who gets to be an american by eliminating birthright citizenship, which is in the constitution, loses in in the constitution, loses in court again. when emergency strikes, first responders are the first ones in... but on outdated networks, the crucial technology they depend on, is limited. that's why t-mobile created t-priority... ...the only solution built for the 5g era, that can dynamically dedicate up to 10 times

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washington is coercing other nations into becoming part of its deportation machinery. the new york times reports that when migrants reach panama, quote, they were stripped of their passports and most of their cell phones. the migrants said, and then locked in a hotel, barred from seeing lawyers and told they would soon be sent to a makeshift camp near the panamanian jungle. on tuesday, telemundo captured this footage of the hotel. you can't see that people are holding up signs that say please help us in their windows. the times reports this quote at the hotel. at least one person tried to commit suicide, according to several migrants. another broke his leg trying to escape. a third sent a plaintive missive from a hidden cell phone quote only a miracle can save us. in one window, visible from a sidewalk below the hotel, a woman clawed at a glass pane in an attempt to escape. when she noticed journalists below, she held up a piece of paper that

read afghan. she made hand motions that indicated an airplane. then her head falling off. the message seemed to be clear a flight home might mean death. in a statement to the new york times, the department of homeland security defended their decisions and the decision to send migrants to panama. joining our conversation is the andes bureau chief for the new york times, julie turkiewicz. she's bylined in the reporting we read from. and with me at the table, deputy director of the immigrants rights project at the aclu. legal earned us back. julie, this is this is some of the most harrowing reporting i've read about the trump administration in nine years of covering donald trump. just take us inside the reporting. >> sure. >> my colleagues got. >> a. >> tip last. week that said the. >> trump administration. >> was sending a. group of. people from the united states. >> to panama. we sort.

>> of immediately. >> saw this as this expansion of the trump administration's efforts to deport people as quickly as possible in large numbers. the administration has this struggle that it cannot deport people from some nations so easily, and it has gotten panama to agree to take them in. and so as as you mentioned, once people were sent on these military planes to panama, they were locked in this hotel that you see there. we were standing outside of that hotel. those are pictures from my colleague federico rios, and they have started communicating with us through a couple through cell phones. a couple of them still have had their cell phones. and then on tuesday night, about a third of the group was sent to this camp near the darién jungle. >> i want to read from the

reporting. you report this quote on the military plane ride from california to panama. moana, a 32 year old iranian christian convert, said her eight year old son cried, terrified to see his parents shackled to calm him down. she told him that this was like overcoming the challenges in a video game, and that once the plane landed, they would be free. her husband mohamed, 33, said that throughout the flight, when his wife and son cried, he reminded them about a christian teaching. they often recited, quote jesus has said, if you don't take your eyes off me, i won't take mine off you. so i was constantly signaling that to my wife, saying, keep your eyes on him. he said, just talk about where all of these where all these people are from. >> sure, it's a large group. we know that they come from afghanistan, from iran, from china. there was a group from cameroon. i think it's important

to note that the a few of the afghans that we've managed to get in contact with, at least be in contact with their families, have told us that they come from the hazara minority. that, of course, is in danger. if they go back to afghanistan, this group of iranians that you see right there have told us that they converted to christianity, which is punishable by death in iran. and the one chinese man that we were able to speak with said that, you know, he when we asked him why he attempted to get to the united states, why he went to the united states, he said, for freedom. and he talked about economic and other problems that he had had back in china. >> li we talked a lot after the election, but before the inauguration about all of the work that was done before trump was elected a second time in

dehumanizing. right. people coming to this country illegally. but there remains, while there is high support for deporting people who come to our country and commit violent crimes, new york times says 87% of americans believing they should be deported. a plurality do not support deporting people whose only offense is to come here for a better life. and it is abundantly clear that that's what the trump administration is doing. >> yeah, i think you're exactly right. >> and this is. >> the kind of. >> reporting we need to shine a light. on exactly what it looks like when the trump administration is out there saying, we're deporting the worst of the worst. but as this reporting. >> shows. >> these are people who are desperate or are fleeing danger. and so we have one woman who was sent to panama, who is now part of our asylum case. her and her two. children were fleeing danger. they now were sent to panama without any screening. >> for protection. >> and so that's what we're looking at. people being just sent to guantanamo, to panama,

all over the place. non-criminals not getting screened for protection. that's what we're looking at. and i think that's what the american public will hopefully see and push back on when they see, you know, this worst of the worst thing is, is really a farce. >> what what what can people do to help them if they're not americans? they don't have status here, but they're not citizens of the countries that trump has shipped them off to. >> yeah. so we'll have. >> to. >> see what happens in panama. i mean, we need panama now to screen them and not just send them on, but they're going to be put in a remote detention camp near the darien gap. we hope that panama will do the right thing and not just ship them off, but we don't really know what's going on. and that's one of the problems is the lack of transparency. so these people are now going to be in these detention camps. you know, it's going to be largely a black box, and we're going to have to rely on panama because we have lost control of them. the trump administration should have screened them for protection. it didn't. and now they're sitting at the darien gap. >> it's unbelievable. i'm going to ask both of you to stick

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myself. this is what he told me, she said, recalling how his voice became so low she could barely hear it. these are things i'm thinking about, she said. if my son is alive, it's injustice. doris grew more despondent about the situation involving her son, though assistant secretary of homeland security for public affairs tricia mclaughlin asserted that there is a system for phone utilization to reach lawyers at guantanamo bay. she could not reach him. i have no news, she wrote me over whatsapp. if you know anything about my son, please tell me. >> yeah. it's bad. i mean, think about the united states sending people to a remote island. and we said, this is a black box. we can't reach anybody just like what you read. we have to file a lawsuit. now, they say this morning, oh, maybe you can have access. but now we found out they've moved everyone somewhere else. so. right. obviously, we don't have access. we need to stop them sending people to guantanamo. i mean, this is absolutely ridiculous to send people from united states soil to guantanamo. that's unprecedented in our country's

history. to send people to a remote island like that. >> but that seems to be the, again, the feature, not the bug. i mean, julie, the camp in the jungle where the migrants and asylum seekers sent to the panamanian hotel or going, you describe as as having dirt floors, looking like a zoo and being in an area rife with disease. >> sure that the campus in a very remote place and i think. one of the interesting aspects of that is that it is far away from lawyers and other individuals who might be able to represent these people. we have not been given access by the panamanian government to visit the camp to see what the conditions are like. those descriptions come from one of the migrants who is reporting back to us. >> lee, when you look at the.

maybe failure to imagine what trump 1.0 would do, and it culminated in us getting to know you, the public, and know you through child separation, something that a republican president appointed judge described as, quote, child abuse. right. and then you look at this mass movement of human beings. some of them people here that committed violent crimes. but we understand 41% are people who are here that committed no offense other than the civil offense of being undocumented. what are you what is your horizon look like in terms of being able to focus the public's attention on something? in some instances, as grave as child separation? >> yeah. you know, i think you've hit it on the head that we just need to keep pushing, right? i mean, courage begets courage. fighting begets fighting. you know, i think we just. we can't give up. i think that's what they're hoping is that they can bombard us with

these policies. and we will stop pushing back. you know, what i've always told people is we're not going to win every fight, but we can't give up the first time. we lose the first time we don't get through to the public. we need to just keep trying. i am hopeful that the public, when they see actually what's going on, will push back like they did in family separation. and i think it was also a mistake to assume that federal judges would not push back if they saw that something was illegal. and we see that, you know, from your introduction on birthright citizenship. federal judges are very serious about their job, and they are not going to simply roll over. and so i think people need to make sure they don't give up on the federal judiciary and on the american public saying, wait, this is not what we voted for. families being sent into the middle of panama with in a black box, with no access, being sent back to danger, persecution just because they're christian. so we're just going to keep pushing and we're going to try not to give up. is it bad? absolutely. but we won't give up. >> julie, i'll give you the last word on where this reporting

goes from here. are there are there efforts by the panamanians to allow any access to the migrants in either the camp or the hotel? >> the panamanian government is working with the un's international organization for migration. they say that they are working together to find a solution for these people. that solution could end up at some people go to another country, another country that is willing to accept them. but for now, the camp is a black box. these people are there, and journalists and lawyers have not been able to get in. >> black box is such an accurate term, but such a haunting one. we're talking about human beings and families with children whose only known crimes in the reporting are are coming to the country as asylum seekers. julie lee, thank you so much. thank you for the reporting, julie. and lee, thank you for spending and lee, thank you for spending time when caroline has a cough, she takes robitussin.

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♪ have a little fun ♪ let's welcome our new. >> coworker, jeff. >> copier has a great idea.er i. >> as yesterday. >> it's a. performance issue. really. i know people push your buttons, but you still have to deliver. deliver. >> anything can change the i guess what i'm looking for from you is, i mean, i know how the fire affected me, and there's always a constant fear that who's to say something like that won't happen again? that's fair. we committed to underground, 10,000 miles of electric line. you look back at where we were 10 years ago and we are in a completely different place today, and it's because of how we need to care for our communities and our customers. i hope that's true.

[joe] that's my commitment. [ambient noise] get $50 instantly in site credits with code tv. >> i probably. >> should've told you we weren't real doctors. >> no one is a bigger or more dangerous. >> sycophant than kash patel. >> this political. hack does not. >> deserve to. >> be in this building. >> he is a yes man. >> for. >> president trump. >> already undermining. >> the critical. >> bureau he wants.

>> to lead. >> already demonstrating an. alarming willingness. >> to do. >> the bidding of a vengeful white house. >> kash patel. >> mark, my words. will cause evil in this building behind us, and republicans who vote for him will rue that day. >> hi everyone. it's 5:00 in new york in front of that very building, the fbi headquarters at kash patel said he would, quote, shut down on day one and reopen the next day as a museum to the deep state. end quote. democratic senators today railed against kash patel, the man donald trump chose to be the next fbi director. just over two hours ago, patel was confirmed to that ten year post. all democrats voted, along with republicans susan collins and lisa murkowski against him, making patel the first fbi director pick ever to be opposed by a bipartisan group of senators. patel also is the first to be so closely publicly

aligned with the president ever. traditionally, fbi directors try to separate themselves from politics as much as possible. but in his second term, trump wanted someone he was sure would do his bidding. trump has had a history of clashing with his fbi directors. he famously fired jim comey after comey refused to drop an investigation into donald trump's then national security adviser, mike flynn, and christopher wray, the man he appointed as his successor, tried to stay out of the fray but ultimately resigned last month when donald trump made clear he wanted something different out of his fbi director. which brings us to today, where kash patel, a very vocal critic of the fbi he now leads, is in charge. patel, ushering in a new era for the fbi, an agency that has been filled with turmoil since trump took office for the second time. it brings with him an obsession with retribution and revenge. his so-called enemies list of

over 60 individuals. he wrote this list up in his own book. he says he believes they are part of the deep state, just being one illustration of his commitment to revenge. yesterday, senator chris murphy had strong words for his republican colleagues who voted for him to put this man in charge of the nation's preeminent intelligence and security agency. >> you're going to. >> put at the head of the fbi the agency that can arrest anyone they want, put people in jail. a man who thinks that anyone who disagrees with donald trump politically is. >> an enemy. >> of the united states. >> the law. >> loses all meaning. >> when it becomes. >> simply what. >> the president. >> what the. leader on any given. >> day decides. this is the. >> worst possible. >> moment to put a person like kash patel in charge of the fbi. my prediction is.

>> that if you. >> vote for kash patel more than any other confirmation vote you make, you will come to regret this one to your grave. >> that's where we start the hour. some of our favorite reporters and friends, voting rights attorney marc elias is here. he's the founder of democracy docket, new york times investigative reporter, msnbc national security contributor. mike schmidt is back with us. marc elias, you are a named and engaged perceived political enemy of donald trump's, of elon musk's of the entire sort of cast of characters. and i wonder your thoughts today as kash patel becomes confirmed as the director of the fbi. >> donald trump got. >> the triumvirate that he wanted. you know, he got kash patel at the fbi, he got pam. >> bondi, an election denier. >> and also a sycophant of donald trump's at. >> the department of justice. >> and, of course, he got pete

hegseth. at the department of defense. now, for good measure. he also got tulsi gabbard at the director of national intelligence. but what donald trump has wanted from the beginning is to be able to weaponize government, to go. >> after his. >> political opponents. he talked about retribution before the election. he talked about revenge. he talked about being a dictator. just the. >> other. >> day, they put out an executive order saying the only two people in the executive branch who have the power to interpret the law are the president, united states and the attorney general. so we are in very, very dangerous waters right now, and we will see political prosecutions. we will see political investigations. and it. is vitally important. and it is my plea to everyone that when we see them, we do not assume that they are business as usual. we do not assume that the department of justice or the fbi has a good reason for doing what it's doing. we have to assume that they have a bad reason when they are targeting democrats, or they're targeting other people, including republicans, who they view as political enemies.

>> let me show both of you, kash patel, in his own words, on the media and the deep state. >> we will. >> go out and. >> find the conspirators, not just. >> in government, but in the media. >> yes, we're going. >> to. >> come after the. >> people. >> in the media. >> who lied. >> about american. >> citizens who helped. >> joe. >> biden rig. presidential elections. >> we're going. >> to. >> come. >> after you, whether. >> it's criminal or civil, we will figure that out. >> but yeah. >> we're putting you all on notice. >> i think what so. many of. >> these guys. >> did, whether it's brennan, clapper, comey, mccabe, strzok, barr, haspel, esper, what have you, i think there's a. lot of rule and law breaking. and i don't know that it ever gets to the level of treason singularly with any of them. but what you have is a build up of so many actions by the deep state that it becomes borderline treasonous

to allow those people and their activities, in a collective fashion, to ever be applied to the united states. >> many of those people viewed as holding the line some more popular with my audience than others. i mean, bill barr and mark esper on that list. comey, mccabe who tried to hold the line at the fbi under brutal, continuous assault from donald trump when they were investigating his campaign's ties to russia. all of them named public stated targets of kash patel. >> yeah. >> and i. >> think you. >> have to come back. to understand. >> why it is. >> that people that. >> run agencies like. >> the fbi. >> shouldn't say. >> things like that. >> or. >> shouldn't have said them. >> in the past. and that's because. >> when the. >> fbi takes. >> action. >> the. public has to look. >> at it. >> and think. >> okay. >> do we trust that. >> they're doing.

>> this based on. >> the. >> law and the. fact or is it being done. for political purposes? and because of kash patel's. history and what he. said now. everything that the fbi does will be seen through that prism. you just heard all. >> those. >> democratic lawmakers, what. >> they. >> said, chris murphy. >> said, you. >> will regret this. >> vote until. >> your grave. >> so what. >> does that mean about at a. very basic level, how will the public see. fbi action when someone like that is running the institution? and when you're talking about public trust and confidence, that is a major issue. and even. if the. >> fbi is. >> making a decision based on the. >> law and the. >> fact it will have to overcome. that perception, and that's one of the reasons why people that run institutions like this shouldn't say things like that. i always remember this story about comey. i once asked comey when he was fbi

director. i was interviewing him. i said, would you play basketball with obama because obama was playing basketball in the basement of the fbi on the weekends. >> he's tall. >> and he's six foot eight and would have made a natural person to play in obama's basketball game. and comey said, i won't play basketball with him because i think that's too much of a perception of being too close to the president. so is the president united states playing basketball in the basement of the fbi and the fbi director saying, i won't play with him because i don't think that we are a long, long way from that at this point. >> i mean, we're a long way from chris wray. mark elias, who came onto trump's radar, i believe, because chris christie knew him, he had aided him legally during bridgegate. so, you know, comey was comey was out for refusing to let mike flynn go, but he was picked. his replacement, chris wray, was picked by donald trump. and this is what got

statements like what i'm about to play or what got chris wray fired or sort of thrown out of favor. so he quit before he could be fired. >> our job. >> as investigators at. >> the fbi. >> is to follow. the facts. >> wherever they. >> lead. >> no matter who likes it. and i add that last part, because one. of the things that i've. seen over my seven and a half years. >> as. >> fbi director is that people often. claim to be very interested in independence and objectivity. until independence and objectivity lead to an outcome they don't like. you know. >> truth is truth. >> not necessarily. what either side wants it to be. >> so again, just comparing trump's first pick to trump's second pick tells the whole story of how different this presidency promises to be. >> yeah. i mean, one. of the things that you heard him say is that people say they want independence. i don't think donald trump says that he wants

independence. i don't think donald trump even, like, even pretends to aspire to have independence. donald trump believes that he and he alone can direct the entire federal government. that means who the irs audits. it means who gets social security checks. it means who. >> the fbi. >> investigates, who the department of justice prosecutes. and, you know, to mike's point about people's perception of the fairness of the process, people will be correct to not be trusting the fairness of the process. i mean, you know, we have seen just in the first few weeks, we have seen federal prosecutors be fired. we have seen federal prosecutors resign under circumstances that show just how direct the white house and, and, and the political appointees at the department of justice who are doing donald trump's bidding, how engaged and involved they will be in the minutia of a lot of cases that, like i said, you're already starting to see resignations over. so. so i suspect we'll see more resignations. we'll see more resignations, the department of justice, more

resignations at the fbi. but at the end of the day, are people going to have confidence? i mean, that that, you know, that compared to a guy who wouldn't play basketball with with the president, united states? no, they won't have confidence. but you can't blame them. >> you know, one of the things that doesn't you know, trump promised revenge and he picked all these revenge. i mean, kash patel writes about revenge in his book, the enemies list we keep putting up wasn't assembled by us. it was assembled by kash patel. it includes some of the most prominent figures from the first trump administration, people like bill barr and gina haspel. i have a two part question for you. one, why are they on the enemies list? why does kash patel want to punish them? and two, what happens to the fbi is someone who's covered it. as long as you have to. those core missions that trump ran on, i mean, he ran on crime. he ran on bringing those crime rates down and, and racing through the fbi, purging people who fight crime doesn't seem like a good way to achieve that aim. >> well, that's one of the things about trump's approach,

not just to the fbi, but to the whole government, which is there is obviously a large scale effort to gut the federal government going on, including in purges at the fbi, looking for agents that worked on cases that they didn't like and such. the thing that i don't understand, and which seems to be the bet that trump has made, or maybe it's just what what he's doing is that i think it's risky to run the federal government while dismantling it, because ultimately you're in charge of the federal government, and you will be measured based on how the federal government responds in a range of different ways. even if you're a hardened conservative and you believe in small government, you're still in charge of the government. and what is going to happen when something goes wrong and the government is not on the footing that it needs to be to respond to it. so to your point, if the fbi and justice department are gutted of prosecutors and agents and the justice department has lost, what is it? i think seven

prosecutors who have quit or resigned in a week, you can't you can't just grow a federal prosecutor and put them in. it just isn't plug and play. those are those are people that have to be hired, vetted, brought on board and such to enforce the law. so sure, it's only seven, but there's always far fewer federal investigators than you think. and the powers of the federal government, while vast, are probably not quite as robust as we would imagine, because it's sort of hard to quantify. so it puts trump in a position potentially politically, where if something were to happen, it's going to be very easy for the other side to say, well, look, look, man, you're the guy who who has really worked to dismantle the government and maybe that doesn't catch up with him, maybe that doesn't catch up with him in the short term. and maybe, maybe it ultimately doesn't matter. but i think from a political perspective, it is a risk that he is taking because

at the end of the day, he is in charge of the federal government, no matter how much the far right may not like the government. >> well, i mean, the far right likes what the government does. and fighting crime is the most popular thing. it is actually maybe the only thing since we've given up on the price of eggs more popular than owning the libs, which is the only other umbrella under which the right seems to get jazzed and the ability, i mean, stuff has already happened. there were two domestic terror inspire incidents between trump's election and inauguration. i mean, the fbi is already stretched in terms of carrying out core functions that traditionally have have not had a partizan audience. i mean, what do you you know, it's the incompetence, stupid, i think, that still holds. >> yeah. i think that there's two things here. the first, to answer a question that you you asked why some of these republicans are on the list. there are there are sort of two things that i think get people

like pretty centrally on trump's enemies list. the first has to do with the russia investigation. and i think some of the folks who are on there for that. the second, though, which we shouldn't overlook, is election denialism. election denialism is pretty central to his his ethos. i mean, when you look at the litmus tests or the loyalty pledges that we keep reading about, what do they always involve? they involve, like various things. but the central thing is always who won the election. and so i think bill barr is on the list because he had the audacity to not undertake an effort to overturn a free and fair election. so that's number one. number two, to your question, i mean, you said like these are the traditional functions of the fbi. well, i think donald trump doesn't care about traditions. you know, i think donald trump cares about what donald trump cares about. and he expects the fbi is going to focus on what donald trump cares about. and if that means stopping, you know, worrying about foreign interference in elections, you know, they'll just they'll stop that. and if it means, you know, no longer enforcing the federal corrupt practices act, which is a law that prohibits essentially

bribery, bribing people abroad, then they'll stop doing that. and if it means that what he really does prioritize is people who stood up for free and fair elections and people who conducted honest investigations, you know, that donald trump doesn't like, then you'll see investigations there. and so i think the notion of traditions or norms or what usually happens is not really going to be the benchmark to judge what, what any federal agency does. >> it's such an important sort of declaration of where the where the window or the frame has moved to. i want to i have to sneak into brave, but i want to read your defiant and deeply personal open letter to elon musk about the future of democracy in our country. to our viewers and ask you how how is it that you never backed down from any of these guys? also, later in the broadcast, mike is here with the other creators of a brand new netflix mini series called zero day. the show, the new show is streaming now, and

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published an open letter to elon musk on exploring that generational trauma before sharpening to this point, quote, i will use every tool at my disposal to protect this country from trump. i will litigate to defend voting rights until there are no cases left to bring. i will speak out against authoritarianism until my last breath. i will not back down. i will not bow or scrape. i will never obey. we're back with mark elias and mike schmidt. mark elias, you have always. i believe i first started having you on the show regularly and often. in the days between trump's obvious defeat and the insurrection he incited about the damage that the election lies would cause, about the damage that mitch mcconnell and kevin mccarthy were causing by letting trump essentially cry it out. you were proven correct. by january 6th after trump's defeat. i want to know what you see happening now, since you have a track record of seeing

around these corners. >> i see our attack, the attacks on democracy getting worse. i see an undermining of not just the rule of law, not just how government functions, but actually an attack on whether or not government will function at all, whether there will be rule of law at all. i've been clear, i don't think we are yet in a constitutional crisis, but we have moved very, very close to one at the point at which we are no longer having people do the government's business but do the business of donald trump. and at the point that we have donald trump declare that he is a king, perhaps that he is above the law and willing to defy court orders, you know, we will be all the way there. and what worries me, nicole, and it's the reason why, you know, as you say, you and i have been talking about this for a long time is that people have become desensitized to it. you know, people have become used to it. they have they have sort of normalized things that should not be normalized. the fact is, it should not be a charming

anecdote that the president, united states, wouldn't play basketball with the fbi director. that should be the standard. what should what we should all be feeling right now is complete and utter outrage. i know you do. i know i do, and i just wish there was a way i could more effectively communicate that to the american people. because in future generations, when you're when your children and grandchildren look back on this moment, they are not going to ask you about the price of eggs. they're not going to ask you, you know, whether or not you know, the airport lines were longer or shorter. they're going to ask when democracy was attacked, when the american experiment was was was failing. what did you do not how did you feel? not what did you pay but what did you do? and i want to be able to say that i did everything i possibly could. >> mark is in a small group, but danielle sassoon, in her own way, did join it last week. so did her deputy, who refused to comply and obey. so did the two

individuals at the public integrity section at the department of justice, before a veteran of that department went along with bovi's demands. there is not an organized effort to save democracy or, in their instance, save the rule of law. but it is picking up some additional members with your sort of read of the rule of law and the department of justice and all the people that have been purged from doj and the fbi over nine years. what do you see? >> well. >> i, i can't help but as we start here in the trump administration, thinking about the first trump administration and trumpism is refined and different in a way that is vastly different than this point in the first term. at this point in the first term, you had the fbi director who was keeping memos on his interactions with the president, united states, because he thought he might be breaking the law. that's what was going on. you had a justice

department that was preparing and ultimately willing to appoint a special counsel to investigate the president of united states. trumpism changed and evolved so much to the point that today you have kash patel as the incoming director of the fbi, and all the democrats can do is hold the press conference that they've had. they can't seem to figure out any other way to stop this. yes. prosecutors have resigned. yes, there have been, you know, democratic lawmakers that have taken to the floor and given impassioned speeches, but nothing they seem to be able to do seems to be able to stop the momentum of the trump administration. and they have momentum and a standing start and a running start in a way that they did not have in the first term. it takes trump years in the first term to get rid of the obstacles that stand in his way to what he truly wants, to the point today where

if donald trump never said a word again, if he became a mute and never said a word again, everyone that worked for him would know exactly what he wanted and would execute trumpism in the in the way that they have all come to believe in. and that is a much different point today. what is it, 30 days or so into the administration, then 30 days into the first term? >> so, mark elias, what are the friction points this time? what does slow down trumpism, which i have to say, i know everyone other than you and danielle sassoon and a handful of others are a little psyched out. the stuff he's doing, the revenge stuff, he didn't win because of it. he won despite the obsession with retribution. and you can see that on the faces of laura ingraham and the phil doctor guy. and doctor phil, i think, is his name, and sean hannity, who were like, you're not going to do the dictator thing, right? right, right, right. and he's like, oh hell yeah, i am. i'm into that dictator stuff. i mean, you know that they know that it's wildly unpopular. yet here we go.

>> yeah, because donald trump doesn't care about the governing part. like he doesn't actually care. he said this when marco rubio was nominated, like donald trump nominated marco rubio because marco rubio is a weakling. he he will do whatever donald trump wants. but fundamentally, donald trump doesn't care what the state department does. he doesn't care what most of the policy departments of the federal government do. and so the disconnect here is that the only part that donald trump really cares about are, is the retribution is the authoritarian part. that is what he is personally interested in. and so that has been a disconnect, i think, both in the electorate, but also in the way in which a lot of the right wing media sort of portray what's going on. so, you know, you can say to donald trump, you don't really want to be a dictator. and he's sitting there thinking like, well, what else am i doing this for? like, if it's not for this, if it's not for that, what is it for it certainly not. because i care about what capital gains tax rates should be. and so, you know, that's that's just like the utter reality. but what we

can all do, what each and every one of us can do is we can speak out like we can just refuse to be quiet. we can do the thing that we can do. you know, for lawyers, it means you can you can use your law degree for, for people with big platforms. they can use their big platforms. but everybody's got to do something. >> everybody's got to do something. mark elias, thank you for all that you're doing and for spending time with us today. mike, stick around, because when we come back, we'll talk to him about his new netflix mini series, zero day, and the dangers facing his fictional, deeply divided country in the time of a fictional existential crisis where no one can even agree on the facts. that conversation with the co-creators of zero day after a co-creators of zero day after a very —hi! —hi! ♪♪ chocolate fundraiser. ♪♪ with the chase mobile app, things move a little more smoothly. ♪♪ deposit checks easily and send money quickly.

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and insane and unbelievable than fiction? you get the us dramatically shaking up the world order by donald trump siding with vladimir putin out loud and publicly. you get the american president describing himself as a king and sending this out from the white house account. and by the way, in case you missed it, there is actual news that an asteroid could hit earth in 2032. a world that is so beyond belief and comprehension that we are left with works of fiction, feeling more real and more familiar than our actual lives. the actual news works like the new political thriller series out right now on netflix zero day. zero day tells the story of a

former american president named george mullin, played by robert de niro, who is pulled out of retirement in the wake of a cyber terrorist attack to investigate what happened and who carried out that attack on american soil, all while the country is as unsettled and deeply divided as ever. here's a look. >> americans, what are we doing? >> we're supposed to be. >> standing up for each other. we're supposed to be helping each other. well, you think you're doing the right thing. no you're not. you're afraid. you're not behaving like an american nor a patriot. you're here standing up for the little guy, the working man. well, there are working men and women buried right beneath our feet. right here. you don't trust the government? i get that it hasn't always come through for everybody. but this isn't about the government or the 1% or whatever the hell you want to call them. it's about somebody out there that hates us, that stands against everything that we stand for, everything that makes us who we are. and they found a way to hurt us. it's that simple. and right now,

these people need to get back to work and get those people out. and you need to let them. you want to stand by and offer your support and your prayers. that's great. but please just do it from behind the barricade. >> shut up. >> if the speech or the applause it brought gave you the feels, you're not alone. zero day is brought to us by some familiar faces to this program. mike schmidt, who is also my husband. for the purposes of this segment and otherwise, noah oppenheim and eric newman are the co-creators and executive producers behind the series. eric, i'm going to start with you. so these two come to you and say, we have this idea. then what happens? >> it actually began. noah and i met with friends. >> we've been friends for a long time. i knew. >> of course, who. >> mike was. i didn't. know him personally. i've now had. >> the immense. pleasure of spending a lot of time.

>> he got dressed up. >> for you. >> he really did. >> he did that for us. >> a second. >> ago, like. >> wow. >> we. no. and i met and we were talking about. i had asked him in his capacity as the head of nbc news, do you know what? what's coming. you know, they're obviously you can't, you know, have lived in this country in the past. 20 years and not. seen a trend with how we process information and what then becomes our truth. and he scared me, of course, by telling me that we were headed into an even more polarized, separate realities where where different people accept different things as truth and the mutually exclusive and yet have to coexist. and he told me about what mike was working on at the time, and it just immediately sparked this idea of like, well, we need to do a show about this. and then the next thing we knew, we were talking to robert de

niro about it and off we went. >> as people just. >> kind of happened sometimes. >> let me ask you this. i mean, i'm, i'm i'm a big homeland devotee. i quote carrie mathison all the time, and you're. and zero day is directed by by leslie. but. and homeland was so on the nose of our post 9/11 cia and realities. but this sits right in the pocket of our of our of our political divisions today. how does how does that feel and how do you make something like that? that's so on the nose. >> i mean, you know, it's. it's a constant sort of meta exercise because as we're, as we're making the show and the three of us are sitting there on set with leslie at the monitor, something happens in the news that happens in our show. i mean, there were things that, you know, when we wrote the show in early, i'd say 20, 22, we were actually really writing a lot of the things that have come to pass and that, you know, maybe people say we're mirroring in our show hadn't happened yet. and so, you know, like, i think all of us, if you look a 25 years ago, if someone

were to tell you any of the 50 things that have happened in our world, you wouldn't believe any of them. and, you know, it's that sort of remarkable. and so i think for us, this opportunity to be able to address this in a story and put a character in the center of it, played by bob, who's mechanism by which truth is determined is actually broken. it just seemed like such an unbelievable opportunity to sort of state that case. >> i mean, noah, the thing that eric is describing is sort of the tension and the trauma is the terrorist attack. but what you guys do to us as viewers is you lay tension and trauma on top of that in bob's character. explain. >> yeah. >> well. >> i. >> mean. >> you know, as eric. >> alluded to. >> you know, the character. >> of. george mullin. >> which bob plays. is put in charge. >> of this investigation that has massive consequences. right. how do. we figure. >> out who did this? >> how do we. >> prevent another attack like this? but what you realize early on in the series.

>> is that. >> he is going through something that. >> is making it very difficult for him to. determine reality. >> from from fantasy. >> and that felt like. >> a terrific. >> metaphor for. our whole. >> society's apparent. >> inability to. >> determine reality from fantasy. >> and. >> you know it. >> a way. >> of also commenting. on what is the greatest danger we face. right? >> we could all. >> list the challenges in the world, whether it's another an actual cyber attack, god forbid, a nuclear incident, climate change, you name it. >> whatever scares you. the problem we. have fundamentally beneath all that is, is that we can't begin to confront those things unless. we can all agree on a common reality, a common set. >> of facts. >> and without that, all those other. >> challenges are going to go unaddressed. >> and i have a special window into some of what animated this for you. and it's the people wielding power. talk about that. >> well. >> i love. >> i think, problems where there's no one else to call or particularly fascinating. so in this case, you have a federal government and someone in george

mullin trying to get to the bottom of something happens and there's no one else that can help him. there's no other government to call. there's no other investigative commission to call in the same way that that folks that ran these investigations into our own government had no one else to help them. they're left by themselves. and this show allows us to see what would happen. how would the united states react if there was a catastrophic attack? would the country respond the way it did after nine over 11, or would it respond in a far different way because there is no shared truth? and i think all three of us deeply feel that if something like this were to happen, where 3000 people, you know are killed, as they are in the show, that that the country would really struggle. and we're trying to bring attention to that and we're trying to say, hey, dear america, you know, there are real dangers out there. and if they happen, what could happen to the country and

what would the ramifications be? >> i mean, you're all in your own way in the truth business. and this really seems to have if there's an inanimate character that goes on its own journey, it's the truth. i mean, what what are you optimistic that the truth will make a comeback? >> i mean. >> having wrestled. >> with these challenges. >> you know, both. >> in the world of fiction. >> than previously in the world of journalism, if i had a solution, i'd be shouting it from the rooftops. i mean, this, this polarization that we see, it's not a new observation. i mean, everyone in chairs like yours has been commenting on it now for. >> years. >> but it seems like it only has gotten worse. i mean, the one optimistic note that i think we do want to try to focus on, i think the show tries to focus on, is in a world where the institutions are broken, where the media landscape is fractured. i think it is still true that people have inside themselves a moral compass, an inner voice, a sense of what's right and wrong, and that maybe if we can't solve these macro problems with a with one brushstroke, maybe they get solved one person at a time. if

we start looking inside ourselves and treating other people, our fellow citizens, with a sense of humility and kindness and compassion, and maybe inch by inch, we start getting back to some semblance of peaceful coexistence and conversation. >> yeah, i think that's the aspirational quality of our show, the hope that, you know, this character finds his way there in the course of the story, and hopefully other others will, and perhaps maybe there'll be some hardening of the middle that, you know, isn't so convinced that they're right and the other side is wrong. and i think, you know that if there's some movement towards that, then there's a shot for sure. >> i mean, i don't want to i don't want to offer any spoilers. i'm going to play a little bit more from lizzy caplan. let me do that. let me play lizzy caplan's impassioned plea to her own father. >> so roger tells. >> me you're. >> going to vote against the commission. >> and it. >> won't matter. >> but yeah. >> of course. >> i'm going. >> to. >> vote against.

>> the commission and fascist. >> come on. look, you know, it's only temporary until we can get a handle on what's really going on. >> said every would be. dictator who ever grabbed power. >> what? i'm sorry. are you actually. >> considering doing? i haven't decided yet. >> okay. >> hear me out. >> hear me out. >> please. >> for one second on this. so let's say that this whole thing turns out to be very simple, right? that is moscow. >> or the revolutionary guard. >> or did a bunch. >> of neo-nazis who figured out how to use a computer. >> it almost doesn't even matter, right? because not everybody. >> wants an answer. >> there are people. >> they see a crisis like this, right? they don't want to resolve it. they want to weaponize it. they're going to make you head of the commission. so they're saying, okay, you hold the gun, you pull the trigger. >> all right. >> wow. >> i mean, that's that's about power. that's about our screwed up relationship with truth. but it's also as as as with other things, it's leading us to this

place where it is true that it would be simple if it was just moscow. it's incredible. >> it also raises a question that seems to have gotten lost a lot during the past few years, which was the post 9/11 debate about civil liberties. and in as the government has more power today than it's ever had, it has more capability today electronically, surveillance wise, weapon wise. and that debate, which was robust after 911, seems to have gotten lost with a lot of what went on with trump. and, you know, when trump was out of office and trump coming back. and i think what the show tries to do and having this all powerful investigator is raise that issue again and say, hey, look, what would it mean if the government had unfettered power and, and to add something on top of that, what what we're doing is there is something that is off about our

investigator that is going on in his mind. and so this person has all this power and he is losing his mind. and what would the implications of that be? and it gets at the issue of acuity, which is a really, really hard story to tell. we're coming off having our two oldest presidents back to back ever. and how do you address questions of acuity? how do how does how do you test acuity? how do you feel confident that the people that are in power have the acuity to be doing what they're doing? those are stories that, as a journalist, as a newspaper reporter, are really hard to tell. but but working with these guys, we were they were able to bring to life this question and say, okay, this is what questions of acuity could look like. and to them, i'm really grateful for that. >> all right. we're going to sneak in a short break. but i want to ask all of you what role art and fiction can play in our country right now. so you get

two minutes to think about it. we'll be right back. >> all of this can be overwhelming, but it is important to remember there are still checks and balances. there's a lot being thrown at. >> the american. >> people right now, and it is really important to pay attention to it, but it is just as important. >> to. >> recognize how many of those things are getting announced. but they're not happening at all, or at least not yet. just try to remember we are not looking at the final score. we looking at the final score. we are still in the first quarter the itch and rash of moderate to severe eczema disrupts my skin. despite treatment, it's still not under control. but now i have rinvoq. a once-daily pill that reduces the itch and helps clear the rash of eczema —fast. some felt significant itch relief as early as 2 days— and some achieved dramatic skin clearance as early as 2 weeks. many saw clear or almost-clear skin. plus, many had clearer skin and less itch,

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this show? can art play? >> you know, there's been obviously a also a polarization in entertainment. there are shows that are considered, you know, their shows and our shows. i think that, you know, i don't. >> know that really. >> oh yeah. there's a show i can another show. >> that's how. >> far in. >> my silo i guess. >> i am. it's true. i think what's interesting about our show is outside of sort of truth, it also deals a lot with fear. and if you look historically at, you know, well, horror films really so many of them came out of periods of great terror. you know, the people were afraid of nuclear war. and you had, you know, out of, out of the, the, the cold war, you had, you know, these incredible periods of, of, of really high end horror cinema. i think in our case, you know, people are afraid. and i think what happens when people are

afraid is they retreat into some form of entertainment, but they also give away a lot of their their liberties and protections and rights because they want to be they want the safety of it. i think it's important for us, you know, with with this show that, you know, people watch what we can become in the aftermath of something like this. and you know, that that it is even more important to be vigilant when we're under some kind of threat, external or internal, and to try to keep these protections in place. i think, you know, if you can do it in a way that it doesn't feel like it's medicine, you know, it's we're not feeding people spinach. we want people to enjoy the show and perhaps even not entirely understand, you know, be able to articulate it, but they feel it. and, you know, i've had success in the past with something like narcos, where both sides of the aisle, for lack of a better word, were

able to embrace it as making their point for them. and, and but the, the, the information they were getting, the knowledge they were gaining would, would serve them when they were trying to process, in that case, the drug war and hopefully in in our case, you know, our relationship with the truth. >> eric, i have to leave us. i'm going to keep these two around a little bit longer. congratulations. >> thank you. >> so much. >> congratulations to you. thank you for being in. >> our show. >> thank you. >> for adding to our authenticity. yes. authenticity. yes. >> i we're going to sneak (woman) did i read this? did i get eggs? where are my keys? (vo) don't wait while memory and thinking issues pile up. these issues may seem like normal aging but could be due to a buildup of amyloid plaques in the brain. amyloid can build up over time. the sooner you talk to your doctor, the more options you may have. visit amyloid.com for additional information.

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atop nbc news as its head and you now are creating, you know, soft power tools, maybe creating culture, creating art, creating tv shows. what's your view? on the same question, i asked eric about what role culture can play. >> i mean, i think culture is still one of the, you know, fictional entertainment, like a television series, like, you know, mike and i and eric tried to make here, or it's one of the few mediums that can reach people in, in their various filter bubbles. i mean, you know, it used to be, you know, journalists. the mission is to present a portrait of the world as it is to the citizens of a democracy so that they can then make informed decisions about how they want to be governed. and unfortunately, we now live in a world where everyone gets to kind of choose their own adventure, choose their own reality. and so we can't even have those conversations anymore. and i think the hope is if you're sitting back on your

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