>> hi there everyone. >> welcome to friday. it's 4:00 in new york. it is one of the most basic. >> principles of. >> physics, one of newton's laws. >> for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. and now, one month and one. day into. >> donald trump's. >> second presidency, one month and one day since donald trump unleashed elon musk and his band of 20 something coders to gut the justice department and the fbi and the faa and usaid and the department of homeland security and the irs and the va and the pentagon. >> one month and. >> one day of donald trump terrifying and destabilizing our allies by cozying up to vladimir putin and insulting president zelensky and claiming that he and ukraine started the war, one month and one. day of donald trump's administration deporting thousands of migrants, many of whom have no criminal record at all, one month and one day with

no relief. none. things going in the wrong direction on the question of inflation and the price of eggs. one month and one day of all that, we now have a better sense of what will oppose donald trump. >> and his. >> anti-democratic overreach. what newton's law. for every action an equal and opposite reaction might look like in our country, and sounds like things like this. >> will you make. >> sure hungry kids get fed and five. >> year olds aren't. >> being married? >> or are you going to? >> i take. >> education very seriously. i think i can be transformative. i think school lunches. >> why is this being. >> jammed down the. >> pipe so. >> rushed and. >> sloppily? >> so you stop the. >> i understand you when you say you have this many employees that you have to cut, that. organization decides who they're going to cut. they may make.

it's clear from all the writings of our founding fathers that our great republic was never meant to be ruled by a dictator, nor a king who. >> has a. >> roomful of ordinary voters who gathered at a town hall in georgia last. night to hear republican congressman rich mccormick. and he's the one who got an earful from his constituents. he was greeted by boos and catcalls as hundreds of critics jeered his backing of president donald trump's agenda during his first month in office. then there was this a little bit ago, inside the white house state dining room, the democratic governor of maine refusing to back down when donald trump sought to bully and threaten her publicly over enforcing his administration's restrictions on transgender rights. >> the ncaa has complied immediately, by the way. that's good. but i understand maine is

the maine here. the governor of maine. >> i am here, i'm here. >> are you not going to comply with that? >> i'm complying with the state and federal law. well, we. >> are the federal law. >> well, you better do it. >> you better do it because you're not going to get any federal funding at all if you don't. and by the way, your population, even though it's somewhat liberal, although i did very well there, your population doesn't want men playing in women's sports, so you better comply because otherwise you're not getting any any federal funding. every state. good. i'll see you in court. i look forward to that. that should be a real easy one. information and enjoy your life after governor. because i don't think you'll be in elected politics. >> i will see you in court. but the most comprehensive and eloquent rebuke of donald trump's first month came from illinois governor j.b. pritzker. >> we don't have. >> kings in america, and i don't. >> intend to bend the knee to one. >> if you think. >> i'm overreacting and.

>> sounding the alarm. >> too soon. >> consider this it took the nazis. >> one month, three weeks. >> two days, eight hours and. >> 40 minutes. >> to dismantle. >> a constitutional republic. and all i'm. saying is that when the five alarm. >> fire starts to burn, every good person. better be. ready to. >> man a post with a. >> bucket of. >> water if. >> you want to. >> stop it from raging out of control. tyranny requires your fear and your silence and your compliance. >> democracy requires. >> your courage. so gather your justice and humanity, illinois, and do not let the tragic. >> spirit of despair. >> overcome us when our country needs us the most. thank you. >> tyranny requires your fear and your silence and your compliance. democracy requires your courage. that is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. atlanta-journal constitution

reporter greg bluestein is back with us. he was at that town hall. we showed you first. also joining us, former rnc spokesman and host of the bulwark podcast, tim miller is here. puck news senior political columnist john heilemann is back and with me at the table for the hour, host of msnbc's politics nation, the president of the national action network, the reverend al sharpton is here. rev, i start with you because you know, more than all of us combined about activism and about opposition and about holding elected officials feet to the fire that was just from the last 48 hours. what do you think? >> i think we're seeing a rise. in activism. we're seeing. >> a groundswell. >> of people. >> that are. >> saying, wait a minute. this is either. >> not what i. >> voted for because some of these people are trump supporters. >> the town. >> hall with the congressman was not. a blue district. and then others are saying that our worst fears have come alive. and when

you start seeing thousands of people all over the. country are marching about. the federal layoffs and you see the town hall meetings, you're beginning to remember that what a lot of people forgot when he went in in 16 and said he was going to end the affordable care act and end obamacare. it was the same organic rise up that we saw people at town hall meetings of their congressman or congresswoman. people started rallying. people started marching, and it went all the way through. then when george floyd happened, all of us was out there. we're beginning to see the same kind of reaction to donald trump in his second term. and we're only in the third week. >> yeah. tim miller, the bulwark has a great piece with a federal worker who voted for donald trump because he wanted his business acumen, and he's one of the federal workers who has been fired. and i think what's important about the piece is and what's important about rev's point, about the town hall, is we speak with such despair as though the information silos are made of concrete and nothing

gets through. you know, one side or the other that's been disproven in the last month. the things that trump has done are abundantly clear to people who voted for him. and i wonder what you think of this moment. >> it has. well, i'm encouraged in this moment that some, some slumbering bears seem to have been awoken in the in the elected democratic class, which is good. but also among people, you know, and i think that it was rational and sensible for people to be disheartened after the election, i was disheartened. this wasn't my job. i probably would have taken a month off to, you know, and so i understand that. but eventually, over time, you know, we all knew those of us who have watched donald trump closely, who are aware of his many bankruptcies and the fact that he left his first term, you know, with the economy in tatters and, you know, poop smeared on the capitol, that he was going to have a similar result this time, and it was just going to be a matter of what and how. and we really are

already seeing some of that. you know, it is easy to demonize bureaucrats broadly. it is true that the federal government could be more efficient. but what is also true is that when you bring in somebody who has no expertise on this, who seems completely addled, who is wearing sunglasses and carrying a chainsaw at a at a conservative rally yesterday, and just have him willy nilly fire a bunch of people, fire veterans, fire trump supporters, you know, fire people that contribute to their community without any review or any care about what happens to them. well, there's going to be negative political ramifications about that. you know, propaganda, the fox propaganda machine and the other maga propaganda machines can't make people not feel what is really happening. and so i do think that, you know, eventually over time, this stuff is going to continue to build as these guys continue to fail and flail. and they will. >> greg bluestein, you were in the room. tell us about this

gathering of constituents and what they had to say to republican member of congress. >> yeah. >> something the rev said really. >> struck me because it really. >> did remind me of covering those tea party movement gatherings, those. >> those. >> protests at town hall meetings 15. >> or so years ago. >> this, though. >> felt very organic. >> to my knowledge. >> there was not. >> some big. >> national effort. behind this. local parties and. >> really local. >> citizens were bubbling up from the grassroots level. >> to go to this. >> event. >> and hundreds were there. >> many were. >> there waiting. outside and weren't even let in. it was cold. >> and so many of them. >> went home. >> but others. were stuffed into overflow rooms, and there. >> was a huge crowd in the actual. >> room. where the. >> congressman was. there was, you know, delivering his remarks. >> and the pushback was real. >> i mean, this was the first. >> time in georgia. since trump's election where i've seen this amount of pushback in public. there's been protests. there's been there's been movements, but nothing like this before. and it reminds me, too,

that, you know, after trump's election, a number of georgia democratic leaders said, look, we're in wait and see mode. we're going to wait and see what happens. it seems like the time to wait and see is long past right now, a month into trump's term. >> so democrats. >> are really starting to push back. >> and these just to be clear, i mean, this looked like people who were disappointed that they had sent him there. this crowd seemed to, at least in their statements, as you know, at least some of them voting for donald trump and the republican congressman. is that a fair read of what we heard? >> yeah. >> and look. >> some were republicans, some were democrats. this was sort of the tail end of the southern end of congressman mccormick's district. he is not a maga warrior, per se. you know, he's not marjorie taylor greene. he supported the. >> president and. >> and he's he's behind him, you know, right now, 100%. but originally he supported ron desantis, his presidential campaign. so he was maybe the most prominent republican in georgia, other than maybe governor kemp and secretary of state brad raffensperger, not to support donald trump, you know,

early on in his campaign. but at the same time, these were voters who are saying, hey, look, even though you say you're this independent, maverick character, show it. and, you know, and he has had a string of controversial, contentious statements that they wanted to hold him to account. >> john heilemann, it is remarkable. i listened to everything that that that greg and others posted from the constituents. and to understand what has gotten through, despite all the things we talk about all the time. like i said, the information silos or fox news not telling them the truth, this is constituents saying we don't have a dictator or a king. they understand the distinction between someone like trump who won, won the popular vote, won the electoral college, and, and, and certainly has the authority to do a lot. they understand the overreach. they understand the clunkiness and the lack of a scalpel, but the deploying of a of a sledgehammer to the federal workforce. and i think there's some real exposure right now to

trump politically. what do you think? >> oh, i certainly think that's right, nicole. >> and, you know. >> we live in a time. >> when a. >> lot of the. >> old rules of politics that you. and rev and tim learned in the in the trenches that they don't apply anymore, you know. >> but i think but i think, i. >> think political. >> physics has not been repealed. >> and. >> and i think if. >> you do, if you. >> do radical. >> things that cut deep, that cut. >> indiscriminately. >> that as we. >> point out, often. >> when we see trump doing these various things to, to the to try to strip the government down to its studs, you know, those. bureaucrats that they assail. >> you know, another name for them. >> is public servants. >> another name for them is just federal employees. there's millions. >> of them. >> there's a lot of people. >> who depend on those employees for. >> for services. >> eventually, you know, once. you get past those first, that

first 30 plus. one days or past the first 100 days, eventually political physics and political. gravity are going to start to weigh. >> and people are going to start. >> to feel that this stuff actually kick in. >> and i don't. >> think, at least so far. >> i mean, i've seen a lot of evidence that that that donald trump and. >> his in his. >> in his rise. >> and sustained era here has been immune. >> to some of the old laws of politics. >> but i do not yet think that the laws of. physics have been repealed. >> and i will. >> say, if you listen to that exchange with, with the governor from. >> maine. >> with with. >> janet mills from maine, you, you hear. >> trump say this. thing that is. >> again, incredibly revealing when she says, we're going to comply. >> with federal law. and he says, we are federal law. yeah. we are. >> federal law. >> anyone who. >> doubts that trump thinks he is as he has declared himself a king and that, you know, he who saves his country can can violate no law. >> and anyone. >> who doubts that trump really doesn't think that he is. >> the state.

>> now listen. >> to that. it's a small little thing. but we are federal law. >> not really. >> yeah, yeah. >> it's amazing. it's an it's a it's an amazing thing to pick up on. and i wonder, tim miller your thoughts about, you know, again, it is more than the substance of the exchange. it is the method by which trump is seeking to publicly. and there's an open press event, say you will do what i say you will not follow, which is the opposite of following federal law and your state laws. or i will punish you in these three ways. i will strip funding from your state. i will end your political career as an act of retribution, and i will confront you here in this room, you know, publicly shame you into doing it. i mean, the bullying on full display is not why he won the rewriting of the federal laws. and who has to follow them was was not you know, it was something we feared he would do, but it was not something he ran on. there's no

mandate to do that. and his poll numbers have taken a hit. 58% of respondents in a six day survey said they're concerned that federal programs such as social security, retirement payments and student aid will be delayed by musk's campaign. 71% of americans agree with the statement that the very wealthy have too much influence on the trump white house. 69% say they think the wealthy are making money off their connections to the white house, even among americans who said they strongly identify as maga, 44% think the richest americans are profiting from white house connections. i mean, elon musk, many, many i think he had 11 contracts that were somehow ensnared in either regulatory questions or legal questions. that was not a secret to the maga base. >> yeah. two thoughts on that. one on the bullying part. first of janet mills. and also yesterday i interviewed robert garcia, the congressman who got an intimidating and bullying letter from the acting u.s.

attorney that we've talked about in the show, ed martin, you know, threatening him over like a figure of speech that he used in an interview about elon musk. right. and saying that that was a real threat and that he's going to be investigated, you know, which is obviously nonsense and an attack on free speech. but that's what these guys are going to try to do. they want to bully and intimidate people. and i do think it's encouraging that governor mills and congressman garcia have just said no, like, i'm not going to be bullied by that and stand up to it and show, you know, just how kind of hollow those threats are, because i you know, i think that courage is contagious on that stuff. as far as the poll numbers, i don't know, i guess i don't know, maybe i disagree, maybe people did want the bullying intimidation, i guess i don't i don't have an opinion on that. they might have wanted it. they might have not wanted it. what they didn't want, though, was again, like what we've seen this mass disruption and firing not paired with any tangible economic health so far. right. and you can imagine a different trump administration where he's still bullying. he's still a jerk. but instead of firing a

bunch of va employees and firing a bunch of, you know, people that work all over the country, he was doing ribbon cuttings with rich people or, you know, doing whatever, like stuff at grocery stores about how, you know, he's going to help lower prices and signing executive orders focused on that. he could have done that. and i think that his his poll, his political position would probably be pretty good right now. and so i do think it's a result of their actions and their choices that they've done a lot of unpopular stuff. and i think that is going to it's going to start to add up. >> you mean eggs being more expensive than they've been in years isn't politically popular? i think that's exactly right. i take the note. i take your point on the bullying. it's sort of a feature, not a bug, but it is sort of combined with not delivering on anything he ran for. i want to show all of you more of this. jb pritzker speech. it's incredible. i have to sneak in a break. i'm gonna ask all of you to stick around. also ahead for us. donald trump's stunning lie about president zelensky of ukraine

that he's a dictator. it drew a rebuke from a strange place today, a normally very trump friendly media outlet. plus, a stunning warning from faa employees fired by donald trump. quote, without our team, pilots would quite literally be flying blind. end quote. brand new reporting on potentially dangerous cuts to federal employees, the ones who keep the planes in the sky safe. and later in the broadcast, the judge overseeing the eric adams case saying not so fast. basically using one of his lifelines to the trump doj as the trump doj pushes to dismiss the criminal case against eric adams. we'll have the latest on that. all those stories and more when deadline. white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. >> and, doug. >> you'll be back. emus can help people customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. you're just a

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>> don't miss the weekends. >> saturday. >> and sunday mornings at. >> 8:00 on msnbc. >> what we do is try to cut right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington that day. as promised, here's a little bit more of illinois governor j.b. pritzker's state of the state address from wednesday. >> once had one of the largest populations. >> of holocaust. >> survivors anywhere in the world. in 1978, nazis decided that they wanted to march their. >> the leaders of that. march knew that the images of. >> swastika clad young men goosestepping down a peaceful suburban street would terrorize the local jewish population, so many of whom had never recovered from their time in german concentration camps. the prospect of. >> that march. >> sparked a legal fight that went all the way to the supreme court. i do not invoke the specter of nazis lightly, but i know the history intimately and have spent more time than probably anyone in this room with people who survived the

holocaust. here's what i've learned. the route that tears apart your house's foundation begins as a seed. a seed of distrust and hate and blame. the seed that grew into a dictatorship in europe a lifetime ago didn't arrive overnight. it started with everyday germans mad about inflation and looking for someone to blame. i'm watching with a foreboding dread what is happening in our country right now. after we've discriminated against, deported or disparaged all the immigrants and the gay and lesbian and transgender people, the developmentally disabled, the women and the minorities, once we've ostracized our neighbors and betrayed our friends after that, when the problems we started with are still there, staring us in the face, what comes next? all the atrocities of human history lurk in the answer to

that question. and if we don't want to repeat history, then for god's sake, in this moment, we better be strong enough to learn from it. my oath is to the constitution of our state and of our country. we don't have kings in america, and i don't intend to bend the knee to one. if you think i'm overreacting and sounding the alarm too soon, consider this. it took the nazis one month, three weeks, two days, eight hours and 40 minutes to dismantle a constitutional republic. and all i'm saying is that when the five alarm fire starts to burn, every good person better be ready to man a post with a bucket of water. if you want to stop it from raging out of control, those illinois nazis did end up holding their march in 1978, just not in skokie. after all the blowback

from the case, they decided to march in chicago instead. only 20 of them showed up, but 2000 people came to counter-protest. the chicago tribune reported that day that the rally sputtered to an unspectacular end after ten minutes. it was illinoisans who smothered those embers before they could burn into a flame. tyranny requires your fear and your silence and your compliance. democracy requires your courage. >> to sustain. i played all of that because the things coming out of the mouths of ordinary constituents in a red district in georgia are not so disconnected from the governor of illinois, saying, i don't intend to bend the knee to a king. constituents saying i didn't elect a dictator. the overreach has been processed and received and rejected by the american people. >> yeah. one of the most compelling moments of that town

hall last night in congressman rich mccormick's district was a woman who said she was a descendant of patrick henry, who challenged richard mccormick to say, why shouldn't you know? republicans start fighting back against someone who was leading america into what she called tyranny. and the congressman struggled a little bit and eventually said, hey, i don't want this either. i'm independent. and i, you know, support, you know, constitutional norms. but at the same time, he also kind of did the. well, that's what i heard from republicans after president biden was elected, that the country was descending into tyranny. and then at that point, i could see people in the room who were supportive of richard mccormick, even boo him. at that moment as well, because we're we're we're in a we're in a unique moment in our democracy right now. and you can see that pushback through that very lens. >> it's so interesting to have greg's reporting from in the room. and again, this is terrain you know better than all of us.

but once the embers of discontent are burning and the tea party is a good parallel in the modern republican party, they can't be they can't be spun away once the truth is sort of under your feet and in the anxiety when you go to get your social security. i mean, once the economic anxiety extends to things the government has promised you, and it's your guide doing it, the trust has been broken. >> exactly. and once you have been told that the inflation is out of hand, i can put it down the first day. and other matters that he promised that he's not even discussing now, then it's no longer entertaining to see him fighting with the governor of maine. you know, that might have been good when he fought. you thought he was going to bring the price of eggs down. price eggs has gone up, and he's up there bullying somebody about an issue that she's right. that's state and federal law. go. and rather than him even try to be gracious and say, well, we need to talk about that. we

disagree. he wants to bully her. and that's only going to further antagonize even some of his former supporters, because he cannot in any way try to not play that. he's the king. and i think we're forgetting is that donald trump can't run again. this is it. he can talk all he want about a third term. he knows that that's not going to happen and he does not care. he is going to sink the republican party in the midterms and in the next four years, if he continues to behave this way. calling zelensky a dictator, calling people out their name, having elon musk there, who is supporting. when i was watching the governor's speech, you have elon musk supporting the far right who is flirts with naziism in germany and in fly right back and stands up near the of the resolute desk in the white house. after a while, even your most ardent supporters say, wait a minute, even if i am to the

right, what does this have to do with me? and i don't believe in that. >> yeah. it's amazing. john heilemann, how completely he's abandoned his core strengths. and what what i watch is that the thing that would help him politically is to say, i know i'm not a king. i'm not running for a third term. but his ego absolutely precludes him from doing that. and the republican party capitulating to trump on everything, including days old condemnations of putin and compliments for zelensky means they won't say it either. so the thing that would ease their political pressure in this moment by saying, of course he won't run for a third term. he's not a king. we hear you republican voters. we don't want tyranny either is the one thing they'd never do. >> well that's right. i mean, sure, that's all true, nicole. i think, you know, the one thing i would say about all this is that i totally agree with the fact that with the with the notion, with the observation that we were starting to see the first stirrings of stiff spined

opposition to trump in the in some of these sporadic occasions, like this one with governor mills just now in the, in the white house and with the jd pritzker, democrats starting to find some traction, trying to find starting to find their voice. i also think it's true that we're starting to see the first signs, the embers, as you call them. right? of the opposition of the fact that some of the these policies and plans and initiatives that are clearly going to have human costs on the ground that are going to hurt people, and there's going to be a political cost to pay for that. we're starting to see the first signs of those. i don't think that we're we're i don't think this this case is closed yet. and so it's not i don't think, you know, donald trump has lost yet. and i think what has what is we're seeing here is the earliest kind of sparks of these things. i think it's going to have to get a lot worse for donald trump than a 45% approval rating, which which joe biden would have loved to have for most of his term in office when he was down at 39 or 40, is he's

going to have to get below 45. 45 is a pretty high water mark for trump. if you think about the last ten years, we're going to have to see the political weight is going to have to pull him down considerably further if there's going to be any change of behavior on his part, and if there's going to be any change in behavior on the republican party's part, the numbers are not going to be able to be strong or even middling. they're going to have to be. and you you know what it's like to work for a president when they get down to the mid 30s or into the high 20s. but if you're in the mid 30s, politics change. if your numbers are in the mid 30s, and that's where it's what's going to have to happen. we're gonna have to see months of this. and that's what you saw with those tea party rallies back in 2010. it wasn't day one. it was months of those rallies before the weight of it started to pull the obama administration down. i think we're going to have to see months of this before we start to see trump pull down enough that the party itself and trump may be even who knows with trump, but where the calculus for his behavior and the calculus for republican behavior

in response to his behavior will start to change. >> tim miller. >> well. >> i, i agree with everything john just said there. i actually don't have anything to add to it. so i give him a hearty retweet on the pritzker back on the pritzker speech, which was really stirring. i just wanted to, like, lean in on one point that he made, which was about which he was kind of putting up a straw man, but a legit one of people saying that, oh, you're being alarmist. you know, when you bring up the nazis or whatever, oh, you're going overboard. this is a very common remark from people. and i think that it's important just to take this on directly because it is it's not easy to be the alarmist. right. like at some level, we're all human. like, you don't want to be embarrassed. it's embarrassing to be the one that's going out there, you know, that's running out into the streets and shouting, guys, fire! fire is coming, fire is coming! then a fire doesn't come right? like, you look silly and nobody wants to look silly. and so i do think

it takes courage for somebody like j.b. pritzker, at least political courage to go out there and say, i know that this makes me risk looking a little silly, but people need to be woken up, right? like we need to shake people, and we people need to recognize the nature of the threat. and i think that if you go back to the period between the 2020 election in january 6th, you know, there were many of us who were being called alarmist. and, you know, and if you had said, guys, in two months from now, there will be a mob storming the capitol, beating cops. everybody would say, like, you're crazy, you're insane. you have tdf's, right? and so i do think that in this moment it is challenging because there are some other democrats, you see, they're taking the other approach, right? they don't want to be embarrassed. they don't want to get out of their skis. they don't want to be too aggressive. and i like that. j.b. pritzker is doing this even in the face of, you know, we don't we don't know what the future holds. and so being the one sounding the alarm carries some risk. >> i love all those points. i

would give anything to be embarrassed instead of disgusted. i would give anything to have been wrong. that trump would pardon all the january 6th insurrectionists to be wrong, that he would fire all the prosecutors at the department of justice who ever touched a january 6th case have been wrong, that he would purge the fbi, that he would purge the cia to have been wrong about my former bush colleagues, that he would put someone like tulsi gabbard at the sea. i would give anything to be a fool who's laughed at and played on a reel. but but the reason they won't play us on a reel, tim, is we're right about it. we were right about everything he would do. and that's where the political gravity comes in, where even and i and i love the piece in the bulwark today about federal workers who voted for trump again for his business acumen, are disenchanted with him already because they've been fired, and they're not going to be part of that solution. to be continued. such a great conversation. i'm grateful to all of you. greg bluestein leaves us, tim, john and the rev stick around after the break. a dose of reality for donald trump from his hometown favorite hometown tabloid newspaper.

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of the country of ukraine. it comes after another murdoch owned media outlet, the wall street journal, this week warned of donald trump's, quote, sell out of ukraine. it's not just the murdoch media empire that's finding itself at odds. all of a sudden, the leader of the gop. here's gop senator thom tillis yesterday. >> whoever believes. >> that there is any space. for vladimir putin. >> in the future. >> of a stable. >> globe. better go to ukraine. they better go to europe. they better invest. the time to understand that this man. is a cancer and the greatest threat to democracy in my lifetime. when i tell you that vladimir. >> putin is a. >> liar, a murderer, and. >> a man responsible. >> for ordering the systematic torture. kidnaping and rape. >> of innocent. >> civilians, believe me, because the evidence is mile high. >> we're back with tim, john,

and the reverend john heilemann again. embers. right. embers. >> embers. and, you know, in the case of senator tillis, he's someone who we have we know we have our eye on. right. he's a person who clearly knows better, knows you know, his private views are are probably up with respect to trump. not that far from yours. but, you know, he's running for reelection in two years. the concerns he has about a primary have kept him totally on the trump reservation when it comes to votes that people thought they might be able to get from him in opposition to some of the various horsemen of the apocalypse, who who got confirmed in the gabbard, patel, etc. wing of the of the cabinet appointments. and then he gives that speech yesterday, which is a really fiery speech, really impressive. nicole. he's saying all the right things about vladimir putin. can somebody please play me the clip where he uses donald trump's name and says the donald trump is wrong for pursuing the policy that

he's pursuing. that's the logical extension of his views about vladimir putin. senator tillis is trying to have it both ways here. he's trying to get credit from us for being strong against putin and strong for zelensky. but he's not willing to take the next step, which is to draw the logical conclusion. the logical inference, which is donald trump holds the opposite views of me on this. and this is why donald trump is wrong when he starts to cross that rubicon. i will start to give him more credit for political courage. >> i mean, tim miller, this shouldn't even be news, right? like, it shouldn't even be news that the new york post can say that putin's a dictator and put it on the cover. that one republican, to howard's point, can go to the floor. and i believe that's bucha. bucha is where russia carried out such heinous war crimes and atrocities against civilians that that national security officials, you know, were emotional talking about it. i mean, people couldn't even talk about what they what they'd seen and what had happened. it happened, i think, the first month after the embarrassment of

russia's botched attempted caravan to kyiv. and the reality is that that if we if we proceed with our capitulation to vladimir putin, the whole country could risk turning into bucha, and that would be on america's hands. that would be because of who we voted for, for president. and that would be on thom tillis hands, because instead of walking down to the white house and refusing to leave until donald trump talked to him, he did what john heilemann just said. he gave a speech and didn't say trump's name. >> yeah, nice speech, tom, but he had a chance to do something about this over the past few weeks during the confirmation hearings. you know, thom tillis indicated to some people, at least privately, it was leaked out into stories that he had some doubts about. pete hegseth didn't really show that publicly voted to confirm. pete hegseth voted to confirm. tulsi gabbard voted to confirm marco rubio, who you might think that is aligned with him when it comes to putin. but we didn't see a

ton of evidence of that during his bilateral meeting with with lavrov last week. i mean, you know, look, we don't exactly know how all this stuff is going to shake out. all i can do is tell you what they said. and marco rubio comes out of that meeting with lavrov and said, and so this isn't trump, by the way. this is the secretary of the state, the supposedly normal one, the one that got bipartisan confirmation. he's like, our deal with putin is that we are going to, you know, have atomic agreement again, that we're going to reopen economic activity and that will be good for both sides. i was like, well, it what what what good does it do us to take sanctions off russia or to, you know, do more trade with russia? it doesn't go into your house and see how many made in russia items you have. not not a lot. you know, the russia is not really key to our economy. us taking sanctions off them would be absolutely huge for putin though, a massive gift to him. and so it's unclear to me what we are getting out of this deal. even if you look at it through the trumpian realist sense of us

needs to get ours. i don't know what we're getting from russia. i guess he thinks he wants to get the rare earth minerals from ukraine, so he might rob ukraine. and so, you know, like this thom tillis thing, it's like great speech. but you have you have chance to do something. there'll be budget votes. there are votes on these confirmations you failed to date. if you actually care about ukraine, if you actually believe that that vladimir putin is a killer and a threat who must be stopped, then you're going to have to stop donald trump from continuing to capitulate to him and otherwise. otherwise, you know, all you're doing is just kind of disingenuously ranting in our face and to and that actually makes it worse for me. >> yeah. i mean, if you want to add zelensky's name, you have to do something that's at least politically courageous. if he's out there doing something much more than that, everyone sticks around. we'll bring the rev in on the other side of a very short break. don't go anywhere. >> we saw. >> elon musk take kind. >> of a.

>> powerful role. did anything about. >> how he wielded his power surprise you? >> do you not. >> need a katrina. >> level type of. response that is. >> rebuilding to. >> make sure it won't happen again? >> you've obviously made a decision. >> to resign. are there any. >> lessons that. >> can be. learned as you're talking to members. >> of your congregation, what do you tell them about how. >> to stand up. >> for their own moral. >> beliefs. >> but still. >> but still. where does the time go? where does the time go? until this week, my dad did not know where he was from. i'm african american. i want to know where i come from. it means the world to share ancestry® with my dad. so nigeria, this is where it all started. so they've broken it down by regions, by journeys, and by parent. man, this is deep. it adds more complexity to our lives, too. it adds more color. my pops is my fuel, my family, and my community. this is my way of saying thank you to him. (♪♪) [monologue] i got somebody for that!

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(the stock market is now down 23%). this is happening people. where there are so few certainties... (laughing) look around you. you deserve to know. as we navigate a future unknown. i'm glad i found stability amidst it all. gold. standing the test of time. and not relevant. >> to. >> our. national security, think again. the world is small. the world is. >> watching. >> the strength of. >> our alliances. >> are on the line, and the future of democracy in the world is on the line. if we do anything less than defeat vladimir putin. >> again, i love these polls because they really blow out of the water. the idea that everyone isn't seeing the same information, they may not

believe it all. you may have a partizan divide as to who has credibility, but people understand what tom tillis is saying there. 61% of all americans believe that russia is solely responsible for the war in ukraine. six 6% think it's ukraine. >> and to say something as bizarre as with donald trump said, calling zelensky a dictator. i mean, it's just beyond the pale. and after a while, people start seeing this because you're no longer this is no longer entertainment and you're running and, you know, the stadiums that weren't as big as or wasn't as full as first time, but you're not a performing anymore. this is not the elvis show anymore. this is real. and you're calling a duly elected president a dictator as opposed to somebody that not only has been a dictator and a killer of his own people, that has held americans hostage. i mean, we're talking about putin that has held americans hostage.

and even some of his supporters are saying, wait a minute. so when you have the new york post putting it on the front cover, not an editorial inside on the front cover, this is a dictator. this has to hit the core of his own ardent supporters. do they stay there? we don't know. right? but clearly it raises at least what they have to start questioning. >> i think if you take sort of the cover of the post and you take the poll numbers so lopsided, 61% of americans understand russia started the war, only 6% think it's ukraine. that's a steep hill, even even for trump, who's maga base is pretty pickled in trump's own disinformation. but you put that with the 71% of respondents who think that the rich are getting richer. and the irony would be if the russia story that sinks trump politically isn't about criminal collusion, but is about grift and enriching himself. it would be amazing if that ends up being the political vulnerability when it comes to

russia. >> you know? yeah, it sure, the irony would be very would be very thick in that in that case, nicole, i you know, this is an issue where again, you know, you point to i just try to i try to put myself in donald trump's shoes and whether he cares about tom tillis giving a speech where he never mentions donald trump or whether he cares about the new york post declaring vladimir putin a dictator, but not tying it to donald trump in some way. trump is so narcissistic and so self possessed and so self consumed that i think. i think most of those things, he doesn't care. i think very much if anybody from any ideological position or any affiliation wants to yell at vladimir putin, i think that doesn't really affect him. i think that if these voices want to try to take trump down on this issue, they're going to have to go directly at him and make the make the link between their arguments on putin and their arguments about trump. just

talking about vladimir putin is not going to move donald trump and not going to move voters either. i don't think very much. >> tim miller, john heilemann, the reverend al sharpton, thank you for spending the hour with you for spending the hour with (man) got one more antoine. (vo) with usps ground advantage, it's like you're with us every step of the way. ♪ (man) cooool. ♪ (man) right on time! (vo) stay in the know. from your dock... to their door. known for sharing what you love. ♪♪ no one wants to be known for cancer, but a treatment can be. keytruda is known to treat cancer. fda-approved for 18 types of cancer, including certain early-stage cancers. one of those cancers is triple-negative breast cancer.

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our care, not the cost. choose spot customizable pet plans you both will love. >> all the critical. >> safety positions like air traffic controllers and inspectors. all of those positions have been protected. no one has been fired. actually, we're hiring into those spaces. so 352 cuts is 0.8% of the workforce incredibly small? >> will there be future rounds of cuts? >> there could be. >> i'm not sure at the faa, but i think across government.

>> it could be. not sure. hi everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. the trump administration will swear up and down. everything is fine. there's nothing to see here. but ask the people who actually are responsible for the work of keeping our planes in the air safely. well, a number of them now suggest that flying may actually be less safe today than it was even one week ago. a rolling stone source called it a pointless bloodbath with donald trump and elon musk did to the federal aviation administration. hundreds of people fired amid a staffing crisis mere weeks after the nation's deadliest aviation disaster since the year 2 when an american airlines passenger plane and an army helicopter collided near dc's reagan national airport. you just saw that individual. he's the transportation secretary. his name's sean duffy, and he insisted in that interview that none of the nearly 400 people who've been purged from the faa were critical safety personnel. elon musk says the same thing,

but a brand new investigation from politico suggests that the firings did indeed include employees who play important roles in the safety of air travel. quote, more than 130 of the eliminated workers held jobs that directly or indirectly support the air traffic controllers, facilities and technologies that the faa uses to keep planes and their passengers safe. that's according to the union that represents them. the professional aviation safety specialists. that alone creates reason for concern about the impact of the cut people familiar with the terminations said. even if the initial firings spared the air traffic controllers themselves. but beyond the question of how safe we are is the question of how safe people feel. polling conducted earlier this month registered a slight, albeit detectable, dip in confidence among americans, a 7% decline year over year in adults. calling plane travel safe and a

related 8% bump in people calling it, quote, unsafe. we should note the context. the poll was conducted after the awful plane helicopter collision in dc when 67 people died. but it was conducted before the dramatic rough landing and rolling over of a minneapolis to toronto flight. we covered during these hours last week. and yet, firings at the faa. a shot to confidence in air travel, which will affect everything. but at least they took care of die. that's where we start this hour. some of our favorite experts in france, former faa and ntsb investigator jeff guzzetti, is here. also joining us, politico aviation reporter oriana pollack. she's bylined on the reporting we read from. and with me at the table, professor at columbia university, democratic strategist. basil is here. oriana, take me through the reporting. >> yeah. so what we know right now is. >> that these folks who have. >> been let. >> go, who are on a probationary status, these were people who were in miscellaneous jobs that

were essentially still the backbone of air traffic controllers. and the information that they received daily. we see people who do charting. they create maps for pilots that they have to read every single day as they transit these skies. >> and, you. >> know, letting these people go ultimately still has ripple effects on how air traffic controllers do their job. so just because the title safety is in, you know, their job description, they still play a role in the overall safety of air travel at the end of the day. >> let me read from from the reporting that gets at this. one of the people that go last week worked as an aeronautical information specialist, a member of a team of 12 just outside of washington whose job is to create air maps or highways in the sky. the preplanned routes that pilots and controllers use to guide airplanes. quote air traffic controllers cannot do their work without us, the former employee said in an interview wednesday. the employee, who spoke anonymously

to discuss the recent filing firing candidly said they believe the administration did not understand how essential these jobs are for safety, but that instead the workers were, quote, targeted just as a senseless line item on an excel sheet. quote. to put it frankly, without our team, pilots would quite literally be flying blind, the former employee said. i'd like to say, how did this happen? but i think we're all watching in real time how it's happening. is there a sense that if people feeling unsafe to fly is as calamitous, both for the industry and tourism and business, travel and everything else, almost like a covid adjacent economic impact? is there a sense that anyone in the administration is listening to those concerns? >> i think it's going to be a couple of weeks until we see those ripple effects that i just talked about. i mean, i spoke to that very employee who gave me those quotes. and, you know, they had said that because they are sounding the alarm on what's

going to happen if folks don't rectify this issue, that being the trump administration, ultimately, this employee was hoping to see that her team would be reinstated, that they would move forward and getting some of these jobs back. and that is ultimately what the administration is going to decide. and we've seen them make that decision before in hastily hiring back some employees. now, whether or not more cuts are on the way, though, and who is doing these cuts? you know, you mentioned elon musk and doge and you know, whether or not that's going to have any other detrimental effects. they're just going to continue to hack at this until they feel satisfied. and whether or not, you know, the safety of the system is going to be put to the test. it's already put to the test. we saw the dca crash, of course, and the ntsb is still investigating root causes there. but we are at a moment where, you know, the faa should not be pulled apart at this time. they

should be only given more resources to do their jobs. >> jeff, do you feel safe flying right now with your family? >> i do feel safe, nicole. >> but i think that this just isn't a good look. >> for the administration. >> i mean. >> right now. >> we've had back to back to back to back. >> major airline commercial. >> accidents, some involving fatalities. and the faa was already going. into this administration. >> shorthanded with. >> controllers and not just controllers, but thousands of employees needed engineers, certification engineers, flight standards. inspectors that surveil airlines. so why not just keep things in place right now and let these investigations continue before you send shockwaves through the faa employee workforce, which is only distracting in my view. i'm not saying this is going to significantly decrease safety. i think safety is in good shape,

but this isn't going to this can only increase your risk for distractions, for balls falling in between the cracks. so that's my view. >> jeff, can you speak to this function? the people who quote are create highways in the sky. explain to us why that's important on a safety front. >> well, so these are charting professionals, right? they there's routes in the sky very similar to the helicopter routes that pass beneath the final approach corridor to runway 33 at reagan national airport. those same routes that the faa has now wisely, temporarily shut down to keep helicopters away from airlines. so those people put once those decisions are made of where those routes are, they put it into the routing system so pilots and airmen can can immediately access it. the same people are the ones that have that have renamed gulf of mexico to gulf of america and mount mckinley on aeronautical

charts. so that's the stuff that we're talking about here. >> and what happens when they're taken out of the system and they no longer work there? >> well, i think there'll be others there, right? they're not taking out the entire office. they're taking out those that have 1 or 2 years of experience in probation with the faa, even though they may have a lot of experience elsewhere in the federal government. in that agency, it's less than a year or two. so it's not going to decimate the group. it'll make the others in the group have to work harder and carry a larger workload while being distracted thinking, who's next? that's that's what i'm curious about. i hope the stops will cut here or the cuts will stop here. and but if it goes deeper, it it's nothing good can happen of that. >> ariana, is there any sense that they're done cutting? >> you know, i think it's a question of what's next for the doge team, whether or not they're going to be at, you

know, faa headquarters looking for bloat for staff that they feel don't add value to, you know, what the faa does at the faa headquarters versus, you know, them going into air traffic control facilities, which they're also doing and seeing, you know, under the hood of how the air traffic control system works. so whether or not, you know, they find somebody, again, that doesn't add value to either place is meant to be seen. and we could see cuts coming down the line. and that's why i think we've also heard a lot from lawmakers lately who want these answers. i mean, several have sent letters to secretary duffey asking him to provide whether or not there was a safety analysis done on the people who were removed and whether or not there are more cuts coming down the pike. >> jeff, is the faa a bloated agency? >> no, they're not a bloated agency. i mean, it's a bureaucracy. things can move slowly. there may be 10% is

wasteful, but, you know, take a 90% are working every day and have a passion to keep aviation safe. and, you know, it's what is safety critical anyway? i haven't heard that defined. but certainly the faa is not bloated. in fact, the previous legislation is asking them to get more air traffic controllers, more certification engineers to keep the airplane manufacturers moving and more flight standards inspectors to keep surveillance of our u.s. airlines. so the opposite of bloated, in my view. >> so, basil, when there's a when any of these tragedies transpire, there's extraordinary pressure to reopen the airports because they're so central to how we function, so essential to our economic vitality, to the sense that everything's normal after nine over 11, one of the most i was in the white house, one of the most urgent things that had to be done was to get

planes back in the sky, sort of a symbol to the world that we were back, and it was viewed as essential to americans confidence. how americans feel about flying is as big a part of this story as whether or not the faa has any fat in it, which it sounds like the answer is it does not have fat in it. and i wonder your thoughts on how reckless trump, who told his supporters, who told the country he was running to make america great again? he was running to make the economy great again. this is the single most destabilizing thing you can do for travel. >> yeah, there's draining the swamp, but there's also poisoning the well so that nobody could use it or no one coming after you has any access to it, and you burn it down for every for everybody else. and it just feels like the thing that so many americans, so many people around the world still to this day, with all the advances, get nervous about doing just getting on a plane, that you're going to make people feel more anxiety to just point. they're going to make people think about something they don't have to they don't often think about.

and the reason i say that is when you zoom out, consider the myriad agencies, programs that make millions of decisions every day so that you don't have to as a citizen, right? so that you can go on and live your life. but the more that you end up having to focus on those small decisions, the more you start to say, well, what's going on? shouldn't somebody be doing this? shouldn't somebody be in charge of it? and i think that's ultimately a significant part of the blowback, because you're going to make people feel that i can't just i can't just take for granted that i could get on a plane. i'm going to be safe. i can't take for granted that, you know, i'm going to do a lot of, you know, in terms of the dei stuff that you mentioned with with cuts to the military, potential cuts to social security, all of these things that a lot of us took for granted, you now have to spend a lot more time focusing on that's not what you're supposed to do if you're president. and to your point about 911, you're supposed to give people the confidence to say, return to your lives as normal. right. and i remember

after 911, there were so many people just scared to get on a plane again. but it was important for the airlines and i wonder where they are in all of this, the airlines, to say, no, trust me, we've we've got this. you're going to be safe. so i'm glad the unions weighed in, but i'm really curious as to what the airlines are doing, because if they're not calling trump right now and saying, what are you doing to us? i have to think that they're going to be significant. they're going to be significant financial challenges for them going forward. >> jeff, do you have any insight into that where the airlines stand and cuts to the faa? >> i think the airlines are quietly concerned about it. you know, the airlines are a money making business, and the faa is an agency that that regulates the airlines and has a dual role of promoting aviation in this country and abroad for economic purposes and bringing people closer. but the number one priority for the faa is to keep them safe. and the airlines know that they need to work in partnership with the faa. another concerning issue i heard

is the administration isn't allowing faa officials to participate in the normal monthly or quarterly safety meetings that occur on a regular basis. they put a pause on that right now. again, that's i don't see that being helpful. but the airlines are a very active partner in safety. and, you know, i don't they're probably not going to be publicly critical of this with these first moves because they want to stay on the good side of the agency. but they're they're a they're a partner and they need to help out with this situation also. >> well, i think the public is also 58 to 71% of americans polled are increasingly concerned about the influence of rich people and the trump administration's conduct. let me show you how donald trump responded to questioning from the new york times jonathan swan about elon musk's entanglements with the faa.

>> president. given your concerns about corruption? you said that if there were any conflicts of interest with elon musk, you wouldn't let him anywhere near it. >> that's right. >> doge and spacex employees are now working directly at the federal aviation administration and the defense department, agencies that have billions of dollars in contracts with musk's companies or that directly regulate his companies. how is that not a conflict of interest? >> well, i mean, i'm just hearing about it. and if there is and he told me before i told him, but obviously i will not let there be any conflict of interest. he's done an amazing job. they've revealed, in fact, he's going to be on tonight a big show called sean hannity at 9:00, and he's on and i'm on, and we talk about a lot of different things and any conflicts. i told elon, any conflicts, you can't have anything to do with that. so anything to do with possibly even spacex, we won't let elon partake in that. >> anything possibly even to do with spacex. we won't elon let elon partake in that. nbc also

reporting on this front that the same faa that now faces layoffs also regulates musk's company, space x. the faa last year proposed civil penalties against spacex over allegations of licensing and safety violations, after which musk threatened to sue it. the faa oversight of musk's company has serious implications. in mid january, for example, a spacex rocket explosion affected dozens of flights, prompting detours and sending debris into the caribbean. the faa ordered spacex to conduct a mishap investigation. do the workers who've been fired that you were able to interview? do they have any sense of whether the cuts are are are punitive in the way that some of the fired workers from usaid wondered out loud if some of them were entangled with an investigation in its early stages into one of elon musk companies? or do they feel like this, this sledgehammer that's being taken to the entire

federal workforce workforce? >> it's kind of the latter, actually. but as i mentioned earlier, and as you cited as well, you know, some of these people are directly involved in the outskirts of what elon musk has to do. the employee who was talking to me about charting, for example, in the pilot routes, that has huge implications for spacex. you can't launch a rocket without there without the faa clearing airspace all around and making sure that there are no planes around, because when it comes back down, it could be completely detrimental. and you could kill a ton of people that way as well. so again, who are the people who are getting axed again, and do they have direct ties to spacex in this way? not necessarily, but the airspace, you know, from coast to coast needs eyes on it. and elon has a stake in that as well, given the fact that he does launch rockets from texas and florida and california, and he's been under scrutiny going forward from this, from this agency because

of that. >> well, i don't know if that 9:00 show has already happened, but we'll be watching to see if they respond to any of this. it's an incredible piece of reporting. thank you for joining us to talk about it, jeff guzzetti, thank you. as always. basil sticks around for the hour. coming up for us, an update out of new york city for the judge and the mayor, eric adams criminal case used one of his lifelines today saying, whoa, not so fast. the doj's request to dismiss the case entirely. our legal friends will join us on what his appointing of an outside super lawyer in the conservative world means for this case. plus nine who were charged with seditious conspiracy for the leading roles they played in the january 6th insurrection, returned to the u.s. capitol today. one of them got arrested. it's a story you don't want to miss. deadline. don't want to miss. deadline. white house continues after a when emergency strikes, first responders rely on the latest technology. that's why t-mobile created t-priority built for the 5g era. only t-priority dynamically dedicates more capacity

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nights a week. >> now is the time. >> so we're going. >> to do it. >> settle in. >> the rachel maddow show weeknights at nine on msnbc. >> the role of the. >> press is to follow the story. >> as the story goes. >> embattled new york city mayor eric adams isn't off the hook just yet, despite the trump doj's best efforts to put the rule of law in the woodchipper on his behalf. today, judge dale ho, who is presiding over eric adams corruption case, ruled that the case should continue for now. he appointed an outside lawyer named paul clement to argue before his court over the trump doj's request to have the charges against eric adams dismissed. in his order, judge ho writes that because both the department of justice and mayor eric adams have sought to have the case dismissed, quote, there has been no adversarial testing of the government's position generally, or the form of its

request for relief. clement is a prominent conservative lawyer. he served as us solicitor general during george w bushs administration. judge ho has ordered that briefs be submitted by march 7th. joining me in basel, msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin and former top prosecutor of the doj. msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann. so, lisa, who is paul clement? >> paul clement, as you just noted, is the former solicitor general. but also, nicole, one of the best known supreme court advocates in the country. and he's sort of been involved in a situation like this before. as judge ho notes in his order. he was appointed by the supreme court as a friend of the court to stand in the shoes of the department of justice when the first trump administration decided it no longer wanted to take the same position. with respect to the structure of the cfpb. there was a lawsuit challenging whether the structure of the cfpb was constitutional. originally, doj said it was. and then trump came into office and said it wasn't. and somebody needed to make that argument that in fact, it was

constitutional. that's when the supreme court said, hey, paul clement, want to stand in the shoes of the previous administration and be the department of justice? so he's did he win before? no, he did not win. but paul clement has won a lot of supreme court cases. if i were before the supreme court as a client and i was thinking about who i would want to hire, in addition to our friend neal katyal. paul clement would be at the top of my list, or any list that i would recommend to somebody who needs to be before the court. he is a very, very serious lawyer. and also, as you noted, somebody not known for sharing the politics of those that this administration has criticized, including damian williams, who is the former u.s. attorney who they have said was politically biased in bringing this case against eric adams. >> i think what lisa is saying diplomatically is that he's a conservative republican, not a democratic. >> and a real conservative. >> republican, super duper, i think, always shortlisted for the supreme court. i think any of the seats held by alito or roberts or kavanaugh or gorsuch

could have been probably filled by mr. clement. but what what is the job, really, that he's been asked to do? >> to the simple way to understand it is basically the court saying, you know what? i'm used to an adversarial. process and hearing from both sides. there are not both sides now. all i'm hearing from is the government and the defense that are aligned. that's very, very rare. and the only time i can really think of it in this kind of situation where the government is saying, i want to dismiss a criminal case is guess what? trump 1.0. it's michael flynn where judge sullivan in d.c. did exactly the same thing, which is appointed outside respected person to give the other point of view, it doesn't mean that person is going to prevail. but the judge, i think, is being very responsible. let's play this out. like, what's because the real issue is okay, great. i got the legal niceties that there are people on both

sides now that will be heard. i think that the judge really has to hold a factual hearing, not just having people argue, but actually say, i need to have people under oath say what happened. and this is why i think that has to happen. the gut. >> is paul clement, do does he call danielle sassoon or does he go sit with emile bove? what does he do? >> i think he says to the court, here's what i think the law is. and in order for you to resolve this legally, you need to have a factual record. and this is why the government says there's no quid pro quo at all. and even if there is, it doesn't matter. and i think paul clement has to say, what are you talking about? that if there is a quid pro quo, such as. and i've given this example before, let's assume that they had indicted a democratic politician in congress. and they said the government said, you know what? we're going to dismiss the case and keep it in

abeyance. if you vote the right way, and we'll just let it sit there. or here's another example. you pay me $50,000 in cash every month. you keep paying me. guess what? i don't think this case is going to appear. those are quid pro quos. and so that clearly is illegal. so i think the argument for paul clement is you need to know, judge, what are you being asked to bless here. is it in a legal quid pro quo or is this something different. and i know you heard from one side that it's fine, but you need to make a factual judgment. >> are there legal quid pro. i mean, you've got tom homan going on tv saying that he will be, quote, up his butt if eric adams doesn't do what he tells him. i mean, is that evidence of a quid pro quo? >> that is evidence that can be used. so i have a slightly more nuanced view than i think most people talking about this. i do think there are legal quid pro quos. here's a perfect example. cooperation agreements. the

government very often says you want to cooperate. you agree to tell the truth in proceedings. we agree. if you do that, we will write to the judge that you've been truthful. all of that is above board. it's all in writing. it's something that the judge can see. and that's a valid criminal justice concern. my other hypothetical of getting $50,000 in cash or coercing someone to vote a certain way, that's illegal, in my view. and so that's why i think the judge has to have a factual hearing here. and your point is, we've kind of seen it on tv working. >> i want to ask you a question about paul clement. i think i remember some reporting in the new york times that he comes in and represents fox news at some point, maybe in late stage dominion. maybe it brings him in or he's one of the lawyers that is called upon there. he's also sort of in a company with the federalist society. i mean, what do we know about his legal sort

of biography that we could sort of pull a thread and try to guess where he will be most keyed. >> in? >> hard. that's hard to say, nicole, because rule 48 a of the federal rules of criminal procedure, which is really what matters here, and what judge ho is asking for additional briefing about. there is not a lot of case law here. there's a single supreme court case, and there are a handful of other cases across the country to have considered this, most recently being the flynn case. but oftentimes when these situations materialize, it's when a defendant has already been convicted or pled guilty. and then the government decides they want to dismiss the case. sometimes that's because there's an intervening supreme court case that changes the law. that is an actual circumstance that happened here in new york fairly recently. so it's hard to say exactly where paul clement is going to come in. but i want to go back to something that andrew said about the factual hearing. one of the questions that judge ho is asking paul clement, as well as the parties to answer, is to what extent he's allowed to consider materials that are outside the motion that emil

bovi, the acting deputy attorney general, submitted. the reason he's asking that question is because it's sort of antecedent to whether you can have that factual hearing that andrew was talking about. in order to first have that hearing, you first have to like resolve the question. yes, it's appropriate for you to consider, for example, the memo that emil bovi wrote to danielle sassoon on february 10th, where he directed her to get rid of the case, and the letter that he wrote to her three days later that changed the arguments for why the case needed to be dismissed in the first place. you know, he says on february 10th, this is not an assessment of the facts of the case. this is not a comment on the legal theories of the case. and then three days later, he saying, well, actually, there were some real deficiencies about this case, and we have problems with the grand jury process here. he also said in his original memo, i'm not impugning the integrity of you or any of the line prosecutors. three days later, i'm opening an investigation. and two of them, actually one by the office of the attorney general to look into the weaponization of the justice department, as illustrated by this case and

another by the office of professional responsibility. that's the unit at the department of justice that looks into misconduct by lawyers. dale ho asked this question to emil bovi the other day at the hearing. he's clearly looking for someone to tell him it's perfectly permissible for you to do this. he's just trying to find ample legal ground to do it and not to do it on his own. which is why he's appointing paul clement here. if there's a grounds for it, paul clement is going to give him that necessary explanation for why it's there. >> i've taken in about 62% of everything you two have said. i mean, bottom line, this seems like a cover your thing from the judge. is that fair? >> i disagree. okay. >> so explain what. is there any chance of eric adams going on trial without the justice department prosecuting him? >> i think this is what there's. first of all, i think that if the feds don't go forward, i think there's a really good chance the state can go forward. they certainly have the type of laws that would allow it. and we certainly have seen the

manhattan district attorney do that in the past, most notably with the sitting president of the united states, who's a felon, as a result of alvin bragg's bringing that case. i think there could be i think it's hard to imagine the judge saying, you know, i'm going to force this government to go forward with the case because, you know, it's like, what prosecutor is going to stand up. however, there can be findings that say, look, i'm going to dismiss the case not without prejudice, but with prejudice, because i'm not going to have this sort of damocles hanging over everyone to lisa's point, i'm going to protect the people who quit, because i find that what you did here is my words despicable. he will dress it up in proper legal language. >> how does he protect them? >> he can say, you know what? they had every right to say no. because i, as the judge, am not willing to be a part of this. if i think that there is a quid pro

quo, that is an illegal one. i am not as, as a judge going to bless that. and so i can understand why these prosecutors didn't also want to do it. i'm not willing to do it. i understand why they wouldn't. that would have the result of the court not being a part of something that he thinks is illegal. and to the extent that amy is saying, i'm going to weaponize the department against these people, saying, really? about what? because there's now a judicial finding saying it was totally appropriate to do that. they're doing nothing different than what i am doing. >> do they get their jobs back? >> well, that's the kind of thing i actually think there's there are going to be so many civil suits in the civil service. rules are completely thrown out by the supreme court. on the face of it, what we have seen does not comply with civil service rules. and that's coming from somebody i used to be at the general counsel of the fbi. i'm sort of steeped in employment law. it doesn't seem to me that there's just any of the due process that's required.

and we've seen that in trump. 1.0, those people winning. >> i want to get both of you in on this. i have to sneak in a quick break. be we'll be back on the other side and we'll finish this conversation. also had fresh off being granted clemency by donald trump, proud boys leader enrique tarrio was arrested today outside. where arrested today outside. where else, the united states cap (♪♪) “the darkness of bipolar depression made me feel like life was moving on without me. then i found a chance to let in the lyte.” discover caplyta. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta is proven to deliver significant symptom relief from both bipolar i & ii depression. and in clinical trials, movement disorders and weight gain were not common. caplyta can cause serious side effects. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. anti-depressants may increase these risks in young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. report fever, confusion, or stiff muscles, which may be life threatening,

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to help reduce urges. >> to urinate. >> find it at walmart or these retailers. >> so, basil, while they're trying to get into my thick skull, what was going to happen here? the politics of all this

are not good. they're not good for eric adams. they're not good for new york city. >> they're not good for eric adams because he he could technically survive this term. but i don't see. but you know, he's got a primary campaign to run. assuming he runs, he's still running for reelection. that primary is june 24th. he's not really raising money. there's a thought that perhaps if he's making this deal with donald trump, that maybe they're going to give him some money to run for office, do an ai that can help him. but but to everybody's point, he is a pawn in somebody's game. and what new yorkers are feeling is that they can't trust him. they're very disappointed in him. they don't know if he's making his own decisions or if trump is doing it for him. and that's really the sad part here. and i just think that there's this layer of trump doing this so he can show everybody that he can work a puppet. and the racial argument that the racial sort of aspect of this, too, does not go unnoticed. and so when you think about where new yorkers are and

what they're sort of looking forward to, what they're looking forward to andrew cuomo as somebody running for mayor, but, but, but, but what they're trying to find a way is to get past this, because mayors of new york city don't go to mar a lago. they come to us as arrogant as we are, we and we love our arrogance. you know, as as a new yorker, we don't we? this is this is hard for a new yorker to see that moment on fox news when he's sitting next to the border czar and the guy saying, well, if you don't do your job, i'm coming back for you. and when have we been in that situation before? and so, yeah. >> so mood than that. >> it's much more lewd than that. right. and so operationally, i don't see how he really survives or runs for reelection successfully. i don't see how he survives this. he probably won't ever get removed by the governor. but there are plenty of candidates that are running that i think are willing to represent new york's interests. >> i mean, he wasn't the only person facing legal criminal exposure. is doj going to mop up the whole mess and get rid of all the cases?

>> that's a really interesting question, because there are multiple people who are said to be cooperators in this, including a woman who's all over the adams indictment, who was an aide to him and others. and those allegations have not gone away to the extent that those people were going to plead to charges. nicole, those cases, to the extent that they've already pled out, we're not aware of that. there's possible that they could have pled and it's sealed on the record. but we don't know what's happened to those folks. what i do find interesting, though, is that one of the people who is said to be a cooperator here is a former adams aide, marina abbasova. her lawyer signed a letter the other day that was signed on behalf of an in support of danielle sassoon, and i thought that was absolutely fascinating. now, granted, that lawyer is herself an alumni of the southern district of new york's us attorney's office, but so are lots of other people all across the city who represent clients, who are witnesses in the adams

investigation. i can't tell you how many lawyers that i know. i call and i say, can we talk about this? and they say, i'm conflicted. i can't talk to you about this because our firm or i represent somebody involved here. and yet that lawyer's name is on that letter saying we stand behind the southern district and the line prosecutors and the acting us attorney who didn't want any part of this deal. >> we had a more elegant turn planned, but it went the way of the break. so we're going to switch gears here with all of you, a group of members of the armed militia group, the proud boys and the oath keepers, infamous now for their role in stoking the violence on january 6th, today held a press conference outside the same capitol building celebrating the commutations of their sentences by donald trump and demanding full pardons and saying they'll be suing the department of justice for ever prosecuting them in the first place. but they couldn't make it through all of those festivities without getting arrested. proud boys leader enrique tarrio was arrested by us capitol police

after officers said they witnessed him assaulting a female counter-protester andrew weissman. the beat goes on. >> so this is not hard to connect our the conversation we were just having to this, which is the law and order party, is anything but. you have them moving to dismiss a public corruption case where they concede it has nothing to do with the law or the facts. so they're basically, as you said, just want a political puppet, which is why that's why what is before this judge is so important? because it won't be just him, it will be others. and then here you have not just the idea that we all saw january 6th, and we all saw the criminality and we all saw what happened to capitol police officers that protect the capitol, the public, politicians. and when you pardon those people, which is

outrageous enough, the message is you're above the law. and now you're not only doing that. you've not only created people who may feel that they're above the law. i'm not trying to say everyone who is pardoned feels that way. but you do see recidivism. and why wouldn't you? if you feel like the president has your back and the people who are in law enforcement who investigated and prosecuted are now targets. i mean, this is the inmates running the show, and that is almost literally because, you know, donald trump is a convicted felon. >> well, and i think the question is now, kash patel has been confirmed as fbi director. he's been sworn in since we've been on the air. and if kash patel is sensitive to the calls from the insurrectionists today, it will make clear that he too is has is having his strings pulled by them. >> well, absolutely. remember kash patel, i mean, this is

what's remarkable. one of the things his position was somewhat conflicted because he said, you know what, january 6th, it was instigated and it was caused by the fbi that he now heads, which is both not true. and also kind of bizarre because the party line is january 6th. good. so it's like, you know, so it should be good that the fbi instigated it. so it's very conflicted. but so imagine he is now trying to run an agency where his public statements, which he has not disavowed, is that this was something caused by the agents that he is supposed to lead. and when you're at the fbi, that is an agency like the us attorneys that are governed by facts and law. so they know that's not true. >> i need all of you to stick around a little bit longer. when we come back, a news organization suing the trump administration after it faces

penalties for not going along with donald trump's decision to rename the gulf of mexico something else. we'll be right back. >> donald trump is defending the mass firings of federal watchdogs. >> our federal. >> government now can discriminate against the citizens of the country. >> we are all. >> watching and waiting. >> to see. >> who is going to. >> hold the line. >> don't miss the weekends. >> saturday, and sunday mornings. >> at 8:00 on msnbc. >> go beyond the headlines with the msnbc app. read, listen and watch live breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere. go analysis anytime, anywhere. go beyond the what? with powerful, easy-to-use tools power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley. home. it's where we do the things we love with the people we love. celebrating, sharing—living.

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reporting. the suit names white house chief of staff siouxsie wiles, deputy chief of staff taylor budowich and press secretary caroline leavitt, and asks a federal judge to stop the ten day barring of its journalists. in the suit, the ap writes this, quote the press and all people in the united states have the right to choose their own words and not be retaliated against by the government, the ap said in the lawsuit. we're back with lisa, andrew and basil. what do you think? >> look, the president and his allies have been talking a lot about his core constitutional powers lately, right? he says he has the power to fire, for example, whoever he wants, that his removal power is central to being president. well, we have core constitutional powers, too. and one of them is the first amendment. and it's not only the right of free speech, but the right to be free of retaliation. the claims in this lawsuit are that they were retaliated against because they refuse to accept the gulf of america nomenclature that trump put forward in ap reporting. it's a really simple case. it will be interesting to see how it

resolves itself. but more importantly, one of the conversations i've had around the newsroom is why aren't other people taking themselves out of the white house briefing room when they see the ap repeatedly kicked out and refused access day after day? this is a moment that should be about solidarity among the press corps. it's unfortunate that the ap had to bring a lawsuit to get themselves back in the room, but it's equally unfortunate that other people weren't willing to take themselves out of it. nicole. >> and there was some reporting of that. and i think the line was, this is a great hill for them to die on. and it actually is right for exactly that point, that, look, if we're going to take a stand, if we're going to be learned people in this country and, you know, we take a stand and say and not to be condescending or about that at all. but look, there are a lot of really smart people who've done work before us, and we can honor that and honor what folks have said in terms of this is actually a place on a map. we should acknowledge that. so it's a great hill for them to die on.

i absolutely agree that that more should probably think about doing this. and it goes back to a point that i've been saying a lot that the resistance is not going to come from d.c. necessarily. it comes locally. the governor of maine recently. right. governor, state of new york and so many others that are governor of illinois. so many folks that are pushing back and fighting back, and hopefully that continues in corners that we don't expect. >> well, i mean, i think the most important thing is trump is not interested in being a tree that falls in the woods that nobody sees. and so without the media in his own telling, he isn't even there. so it is a good it is a good game of good it is a good game of chicken for the press (luke) so why can't we say we're the best home shopping site? (lawyer) because while true, you just can't say that legally. (luke) so i can't say... “homes-dot-com is the best!” (lawyer) no. (marci) what if we jumbled up the words? (luke) homes best is com dot the. (lawyer) no. (luke) what if we said it in spanish? (marci) homes-punto-com es el mejor. (lawyer) no. (marci) what if we whispered it? (luke) homes-dot-com is the best. (lawyer) no. (luke) fine! what if he said it? (morgan) homes-dot-com. it's the best. (lawyer) mr. freeman, i'm sorry, but we can't say that.

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more from her post on tiktok. >> trans people are beautiful. we are never going to stop existing. >> i'm never. >> going to stop being trans. a letter and a passport can't change that. and this administration. >> happy weekend to everybody >> happy weekend to everybody out there. another break (man) got one more antoine. (vo) with usps ground advantage, it's like you're with us every step of the way. ♪ (man) cooool. ♪ (man) right on time! (vo) stay in the know. from your dock... to their door.

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♪ have a little fun ♪ because it's. >> a buffet of all you can eat. >> butterfly shrimp and. >> sirloin you think those phone guys will ever figure out how to keep 5g home internet from slowing down during peak hours? their customers have to share a wireless signal with everyone in their area. oooh. you know, it's kinda like when you bring a really big cake

for your birthday, and then there's only a little, tiny sliver left for the birthday girl. aw. well, wish her a happy birthday. happy birthday... -it's... ...to her. -no, it's me. have your cake and eat it, too. don't settle for t-mobile or verizon 5g home internet. get super fast xfinity internet you don't have to share. forty's going to be my year. granger for the ones who get it done. stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the msnbc daily newsletter. each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows, previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus perspectives from the newsmakers themselves. sign up for msnbc daily at msnbc. com. >> our thanks to basil smikle, andrew weissman and lisa rubin, and most of all, to all of you for letting us into your homes all week long. we're grateful. the beat with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicole. >> we