andrea canning: vanessa's family hopes her legacy will be about bringing change to the army, giving a voice to so many men and women who have suffered in silence. gloria guillen: [speaking spanish] that's all for this edition of "dateline." i'm andrea canning. thank you for watching. >> good morning. >> and welcome to this. >> sunday edition of. morning joe. weekend. >> it was. >> another fast. >> moving newsweek. >> here are some. >> of the conversations.

>> you. >> might have missed. >> a dictator without elections. zelensky. better move fast or he's not going to have a country left. got to move. got to move fast. i love ukraine, but zelensky has done a terrible job. his country is shattered and millions and millions of people have unnecessarily died. and you can't bring a war to an end if you don't talk to both sides. you got to talk. they haven't been talking for three years. >> this turn on ukraine. >> of course, has a history. >> we all remember 2019, where trump. >> wanted volodymyr. >> zelensky to. >> investigate hunter. >> biden. >> get dirt. >> on joe biden. basically trying to. shake down a foreign leader for dirt on a political rival. and he was withholding. >> military aid. >> i think it was about $400 million back then. >> so this. >> in some ways. >> is not. >> shocking. >> but the. >> turning on. >> a country that is fighting. >> for its survival. and fighting. >> for peace for. >> the rest. >> of. >> the. world and fighting.

against oppression. for a lot of people who love this democracy, that hurts to hear. >> on capitol hill. >> some republicans. >> were critical of. >> the. >> overall message. trump's of trump's. >> comments to russia. >> but most they just. >> stopped. >> just. >> stopped short. >> of actually criticizing the president. >> would you call president zelensky a dictator as president trump has? >> well, i. >> like. >> i said, the. >> president speaks for himself. >> i do not. >> agree that. >> president zelensky. is to blame in any way. >> can you talk? >> thank you. >> thank you. >> president trump has. >> weighed in. >> excuse me. >> by russia. >> i absolutely. >> would not. say that zelensky started the war. it is quite clear who started the war. it was absolutely. russia at putin's directive. i don't think that there should be any confusion with that. >> to the extent. >> that. >> the white house. >> said that.

>> ukraine started the war. i disagree. i think vladimir putin started. >> the war. >> i also believe. through bitter experience. that vladimir. putin is a gangster. >> he's a. >> gangster with a black heart. >> he makes. >> jeffrey dahmer look like mother teresa. he has stalin's taste for blood. >> and as i've said. >> in another. >> context. >> i wouldn't. >> trust this guy. >> like, i trust. >> gas stations. sushi. >> but make no mistake about it, that invasion. >> was the. responsibility of one human being. >> on the. >> face of this planet. >> it was. >> vladimir putin. >> in a calculation. >> to go. >> through ukraine. >> and. >> not stop there. >> to go through moldova, to go through. >> the balkans. >> to ultimately go to the baltic. states and. >> send the. >> signal to china that now is the time that they can take action. >> in the south china sea. >> that's what this is about.

and that's. >> what we as. >> members have to communicate. >> you've seen dictators? >> i didn't hear that. i'll let other people use. >> their words. >> it's not a word i. >> would have used. >> i used to be a divorce. >> lawyer. >> and i did it for about a year. the last thing you do is you get the antagonistic couples in the room at the end, not the beginning. i am okay with talking with russia. about what? where's your head. space and relaying that to the ukrainians. there will be no deal without ukraine being consulted and on board because it won't work. i talked to zelensky today. nobody is going to do anything that that you're not involved with. but talking to the russians separately, i'm actually okay with it. then go back to ukraine and see what they think. and keep working. keep working. at the end, you got to get both parties into the room. >> do you think. >> that putin can be. >> trusted in these negotiations? >> no. >> putin is a war criminal and should. be in jail for the rest

of his life, if not executed. >> okay. >> that last comment from republican senator roger wicker of mississippi was from on tuesday before trump called ukrainian president zelenskyy a dictator. >> trump is also facing. >> criticism from. >> two of his. >> former 2024. >> primary rivals. look at this. >> former vice. >> president mike pence wrote in a social. >> media post. >> quote mr. president, ukraine did not start. >> this war. >> the road to peace must be built on the truth. and former un ambassador nikki haley said, quote, these are classic russian. >> talking points. >> exactly what. putin wants. >> so, david ignatius, here we are again. it only gets worse. >> and while. really consequential. >> to hear this president. >> turning on. >> ukraine. >> when you. >> look at the pattern of his behavior. >> with ukraine, i guess it's not surprising. it's also a huge. distraction from. the

breakdown of. >> the federal government that is. >> happening in unlawful. >> ways. >> as well. >> as the. >> controversial nominees that are getting basically. >> you know, corralled. >> right through the senate and. >> out into their positions. >> with seemingly. >> very little. >> pushback or. >> questions to. >> some really. scary concepts that they bring along with them. >> so one. >> striking thing to me, mika, is that republicans finally seem to have found their voice in directly, clearly disagreeing with donald. >> trump in. >> his criticism of zelensky in this absurd claim that ukraine started the war. that seems to have blown a circuit for the republicans. and it's about time. the concern i'm hearing from strategists, from military people who follow this is, is this negotiation heading into a sort of rough accommodation between the united states and

russia, the two big guys who are going to figure out how they resume their relationship, and then a decision by europe, whether europe stands with ukraine and europe provides the. defense going forward. and if zelensky is really left out of the picture by trump and watching his comments, you wonder if that's not where we're heading. will europe step up? it's you know, six months ago it would have been impossible. three months ago, a month ago, to imagine anything like this. >> but this has become. >> so personal. >> for trump. you know, you. need to really think why? what is it? what? where does this animus towards vladimir zelensky come from? does is it he treats him like a little man. he calls him a comedian. he's like. a secondary player with with contempt. i thought the tweets, the tweet yesterday was snide. it was just a gratuitous piling on. and he's continuing with

the. >> speech last night. >> so i just know where where we seem to be heading right now is an accommodation between the us and russia, and then a european decision to stand with, with, with zelensky. and that would mean a break not only with zelensky, but a real break between the united states and europe. that's the danger of the moment. >> more morning joe. >> more morning joe. >> weekend after. with fatigue and light-headedness, i knew something was wrong. then i saw my doctor and found out i have afib, and that means there's about a 5 times greater risk of stroke. symptoms like irregular heartbeat, heart racing, chest pain, shortness of breath, fatigue, or light-headedness, can come and go. but if you have afib, the risk of stroke is always there. if you have one or more symptoms, get checked out. making that appointment can help you get ahead of stroke risk. this is no time to wait.

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the details. >> visit. >> dental now.com. >> physicians mutual, physicians mutual. >> welcome back to morning joe weekend. let's pick up. >> with. >> the conversation we were. >> having just before the break. >> modestly successful comedian. >> was the language that. >> trump used in his truth social. >> post yesterday. >> of course, zelensky, the president of ukraine. and to mika's point, i think some of this does stem from trump's first impeachment in 2019, when trump and had enlisted rudy giuliani and others to try to get dirt on the biden family. we thought biden would be his likely opponent in 2020. >> he was right about. >> that, going over. >> to ukraine, trying to find

dirt about. >> them there. zelensky did not cooperate with this, mika said, withheld the. >> military aid that. >> led to an impeachment. >> and we know. >> that there's a personal dimension to this. >> between trump and. putin as well. >> he's always been deferential to putin. he has lavished praise upon him even before he entered politics. and certainly afterwards we know how deferential he was in helsinki. he continues to be. >> to this to this day. >> and you're right. >> republicans were critical. >> of what he said, but they still weren't critical of trump. they don't ever go after trump himself. not yet. but this does feel. like it is a moment in this conflict. the ukrainians and the officials there, i've talked the last couple of days, david, i'm sure you have as well are deeply alarmed that there about there being abandoned here by the united. >> states. >> their biggest partner and ally, where it seems like, at least in some degree, washington leaning towards moscow now in this conflict, the wall street journal adds their voice to this. their editorial board continues its criticism of trump's handling of ukraine with. >> a new piece. titled trump tilts. toward a. >> ukraine sellout. it reads in.

>> part. >> this the u.s. has. >> a. >> profound interest. >> in denying mr. putin a new perch. on more of the nato border, which is the. real reason america has been right. >> to. >> arm ukraine. a deal that amounts to ukrainian surrender will be a blow to american power that will radiate to the pacific and the middle east. it would be the opposite of mr. trump's promise. >> to restore a golden age. >> of u.s. prestige in world calm. last week. >> mr. >> trump said ukraine cannot join nato and must must give up much of its territory to russia. concessions to mr. putin with nothing in return. mr. putin's response this week has been more drone attacks on ukraine, and here we thought mr. trump doesn't. >> like being. >> played. the better. strategy than beating up ukraine is making clear to mr. putin. >> the arms and. >> pressure he will. face if the russian doesn't wind down the war, to accept a durable peace. as it stands now, they go on. mr. trump's seeming desperation for a deal is a risk to ukraine,

europe, u.s. interests and his own presidency. and he i mean, it's spelled out very well there for so long. as we talked about yesterday on the show, the republican party, the party of reagan, h.w. bush, the cold warriors, that was part of their their whole orthodoxy. and now trump has abandoned. that and seemingly on the verge of rewarding putin for this illegal war, asking very little in return for the for the guy who wrote the art of the deal, there seems to be no real negotiations going on here. he's giving away the shop before talks. >> even start. >> and it's. >> one that could fundamentally reshape europe not just now, but potentially set up putin on a path for more going forward. >> yeah. first of all, it's very. >> interesting that the criticism. >> of donald. >> trump's policies. >> at the moment is. >> coming as. >> much from the wall street journal as it is. >> from anywhere else. >> it's worth. >> watching that. >> obviously. >> there are. >> things the journal likes. >> about what trump is. >> doing. >> but this. >> in particular. they don't. >> the people. >> who cover russia.

>> and ukraine. >> much more. >> closely than i. >> do are. >> surprised by the. >> degree to. >> which donald. >> trump has already. >> played his cards. >> yeah. >> and once. >> you put all of your cards. >> on. >> the table, you don't have. >> very much left. >> so they. >> say donald trump is in a weak negotiating position. >> now. >> he's put himself into that. >> weak negotiation position. >> the russians. >> in contrast. >> are wheeling out. >> some very skilled negotiators. >> my understanding. >> is that. >> the people. >> that were in saudi. arabia are. much more proficient. >> in. >> negotiating than those who. >> have tried to. >> negotiate before. >> and more. >> more skilled. >> in negotiating on. >> russia, ukraine. >> and this. >> particular area than any of the americans. >> who. >> were sent. now, was that by design. >> were. >> the america did the americans. >> go in order to be. >> rolled over? the speed with which. >> this has happened has left europeans scrambling. >> there is an. >> opportunity for europe to step up. they have the. money to do so. they could. >> fund at least the holding. >> of a defensive line. but that paris. >> meeting led. >> to no unity. >> and that's. >> the problem.

>> for europeans. >> it's easy to be a skilled. >> negotiator when. the person across from you. >> gives you the store right up front, like, here, take this. >> i actually even get to the table. >> i had a question for. >> david. >> actually, because. >> i my view of this is. colored by two preceding. stories to what's. >> happened, which is one. >> the u.s. made an. >> offer to. >> essentially take over russia's, i mean, sorry. >> ukraine's mineral supplies. >> and zelensky said, no, we're. >> not going. >> to. do that. >> and i'm. >> kind of. >> curious from your. >> reporting how much. >> that has been affecting donald trump's mood in approach to zelensky in the past couple of days, the fact that zelensky just wouldn't give him basically a huge economic portion of the country. and then the. second one is there. >> was a story. >> a. >> couple of weeks back about how. >> trump wants this grand deal. >> with russia and. >> china. >> in which they. >> would enter some sort. >> of pact and they would reduce their nuclear supplies and their. >> armaments by, what. >> 50% or something crazy. and my view of this is that everything should be seen through the. >> prism. >> not necessarily of trump's antagonism towards zelensky, but his desire for some sort of grand deal. >> with. >> the. >> russians. >> and what. >> he's. >> trying to do now is

essentially. >> get russia in. >> a place where they can do a. >> secondary deal. off of this deal, in which there is some. >> sort of global agreement for disarmament. it's very, sort of cold. >> war ish and scope. so. >> sam, the thing that struck me the most in the last two days is the way in which trump is making this about donald trump. it's just classic, you know, here's this war of enormous proportions. 700,000 russians killed or wounded in the last three years. and it's about donald trump. and it's about if only they'd listened to me. and, you know, i could have made peace. and it's so there is this dimension. trump sent his treasury secretary, intimate adviser scott passant, to kyiv last week with the demand it had. it was written on a paper and this is zelensky described it at munich. he kept pushing it toward zelensky. sign it, sign it. you won't get any meetings if you don't sign it. and zelensky wouldn't sign it, he said. i don't know if it's constitutional. i've never seen this. i, you know, i can't sign

it. and so he wouldn't. is trump now peeved at that? what do you mean you're going to i gave you the deal and you wouldn't sign it. is that what this is about? yeah, i did hear a couple of people, sam, say that that that's that's part of what's going on here. i do think there is this broader ambition that trump has. and he put it well. he envisions this great big mega deal. it's not just a deal. it's a mega deal. >> the ukraine war. >> is small in scope compared. >> to this. >> his ambitions. >> now extend to something with china and russia. and here, you know, we enter the possibility. of a big arms control deal that actually, for the first time draws in china. we've had deals with russia, never brought in china, although that's that's a that's a big ambition. the problem is we are being seen as abandoning an ally that fought and bled on our behalf. and the world isn't going to like that.

i got messages from europeans yesterday who who were shocked to their core at what they were watching, and they're not going to forget it. and i. >> think. >> that doesn't seem to have penetrated trump's thinking at all. >> we want to do. a fact check. >> of some of the claims president trump made about the war in. >> ukraine. >> the president said. >> zelensky talked. >> the u.s. into spending. >> $350 billion. >> that is false. >> america's response to the war. >> has totaled $183 billion. >> through september 30th, 2024. >> trump claims. >> the us has spent. >> $200 billion more. than europe. but according. to the kiel. >> institute, the. >> u.s. has actually spent. >> $18 billion less than european donors. >> trump said america. >> would. >> quote, get. >> nothing back. >> from the money. >> it has spent. >> on the war. >> that is misleading. according to a. 2024 report by. >> the american enterprise institute, 70% of ukraine aid.

>> has been. >> spent in the united. states or on u.s. forces. >> a lot of that. >> money has gone to domestic weapons manufacturers. >> trump said. >> zelenskyy claimed he's missing some of the money sent to him. >> that comment. >> also misleading. earlier this month, zelenskyy told the associated press he has only received about $75 billion from the u.s. and not the $183 billion that's often cited as. what was. appropriated by congress. >> not all. >> of that appropriated money is. supposed to go directly to ukraine, though. data shows ukraine has, however, received $106 billion in direct aid from the u.s, trump said zelensky refuses to have an election and is low in the polls. >> that is inaccurate. >> a recent poll shows zelenskyy has a 57% approval rating among ukrainians. elections in the country have also. been suspended under the martial law

that's been in place since the war started. >> and finally, trump falsely claimed millions have unnecessarily died as a. >> result of the war. president zelensky shared an update earlier this month that 45,000 ukrainian soldiers and 350,000 russian soldiers have been killed, and the united nations estimates that more than 11,000 civilians have died. while that figure is likely underestimated, it is still far less than the millions that trump claims to have been killed. so we're working with trying to make sure the information that we get, even as president trump is speaking on truth social or doing his press conferences, we got to fact check it. >> and important fact checking. zelensky himself yesterday was critical of trump. >> saying. >> he's living in a disinformation space. that's his phrase, saying he just doesn't understand why trump is saying the things he's saying that are so. blatantly incorrect about

this war. >> and sam. >> but but it adds, though. the trump team. >> is using that as more means to make this personal. we heard from vice president vance yesterday delivering a warning to zelensky, saying it wasn't wise to start these negotiations. it was atrocious, i believe was his word by, quote, badmouthing donald trump. so they're already it's warning shot after warning shot after warning shot, including in that trump truth social post. the idea where he said if zelensky doesn't act quickly he won't have a country left. >> right. well, zelensky. >> tried the other way too, remember? >> i mean, he visited with trump during the transition. he tried flattery. >> he's worked any angle. >> i suppose that he can. and it comes down to the fact that trump doesn't support ukraine's position in. >> this war. >> trump calls him a second. >> rate, second rate, mediocre, whatever. >> it was. >> comedian. >> and he fully believes. >> that ukraine actually invited. >> the invasion. >> and if. >> that's the. >> case, i'm not really sure what kind of approach is the

right approach. >> for zelensky. >> other than handing over. >> your country's mineral supply? >> zelensky's hand is. >> that. >> he knows that whatever america. >> and putin. >> come up. >> with, cook up with between them. if he. >> doesn't agree. >> to it. >> if the ukrainians don't agree. >> to. >> it. >> this is. >> not a. >> peace. >> that's going to hold. >> right. >> and i. >> think we have made that very clear. they are prepared to fight. whether or not some deal has been done. >> i think. i think it's fair to. >> to maybe make. >> the criticism of zelenskyy that he should have tried the diplomatic off ramp earlier. >> and again, i'm coming. >> at it from the set of morning joe. >> right. >> like but. >> he people could. >> have foreseen trump winning. and it's not entirely implausible. >> to ever. >> seeing where we are right now. >> i mean, trump was fairly. >> open about his antipathy. >> to this war. so you. >> know, i. >> don't. >> know what. >> went into the. >> negotiations prior. >> to the election. i know that there was a real. >> push by the. >> biden administration. >> to get as much money. >> and support. >> into. >> ukraine as possible in anticipation. >> of. >> this. but everyone knew at

some point in time this could have happened. >> yeah. and to trump's. point about volodymyr zelensky, the ukraine constitution allows for martial law to be put in place during wartime suspension of elections. and i think churchill did the same. so it's yeah, it can't be twisted too badly unless you want it to. up next, is doge really finding billions in government savings will have a fact check on that straight a fact check on that straight ahead on morning joe ever feel like a spectator in your own life with chronic migraine? 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. in a survey, 91% of users wish they'd started sooner. so why wait? talk to your doctor. botox® effects may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away as trouble swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. those with these conditions before injection are at highest risk.

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accepting help means that we are allowing somebody to bless our life. it's freeing. we got stronger together. love, your mind. with 80%. >> off your entire. >> first order at. >> dot com. as a new vip member. >> i'm happy to clarify. >> elon musk. >> is a special government. employee here at the white. >> house. >> serving at the. >> direction of. >> the president. >> of the united states. donald trump. elon musk has been tasked. >> with overseeing doge. >> on behalf of. >> the president. >> i wanted somebody really smart to work with me in terms of the country. a very important aspect, because, i mean, he doesn't talk about it. he's actually a very good

businessman. and when he talks about the executive orders, and this is probably true for all presidents, you write an executive order and you think it's done. you send it out, it doesn't get done. it doesn't get implemented. what he does is he takes it. and with his 100 geniuses, he's got some very brilliant young people working for him that dress much worse than him, actually. they dress in just t shirts. >> you wouldn't. >> you wouldn't know they have 180 iq. >> so he's he's your tech support. >> i know he is. but he's much more than that. >> actually on tech support though. >> but he gets it done. he's a leader. >> the white. >> house trying to clarify the growing questions as to who exactly is leading the department of government efficiency and elon musk's role at the agency. specifically, it comes as a federal judge has denied an effort by more than a dozen states to block elon musk and his doge team from accessing federal data systems. in her decision, judge tanya chutkan acknowledged doj's, quote,

unpredictable actions causing. considerable uncertainty and confusion. but she concluded the possibility that doge could harm the states is not enough to halt its activities. yesterday's ruling does not end the case. the judge then ordered both sides to, quote, meet and confer about how to proceed. meanwhile, the trump administration says it has accidentally fired several department of agriculture employees who were working on the current bird flu epidemic. the usda said yesterday they were, quote, swiftly rescinding the termination letters that had been sent out over the weekend in the past month, according to the usda. 23 million birds have been infected with the avian flu, leading to skyrocketing prices in eggs. the average price of eggs last month in u.s. cities climbed to $4.95, more than double the low of $2.04

recorded in 2023. i'll tell you, in new york city there, you can't find them. and if you do, there are 23, 99. a lot higher than that. joining us, co-founder of axios, mike allen. but first editor and frank, you both have new pieces on doge and elon musk. what is your take on this? especially with i mean, the nuclear and now the bird flu. they're pulling back these firings. proving the point that they're just hastily wiping the table clean of people who perform functions that are pretty important to our country being safe. >> they are putting back some of the firings, you know, nuclear safety experts, it turns out, are relatively important, as are epidemiologists and so on. >> but let's not lose sight. >> of the fact that, you know, elon musk is closing agencies that regulate him. you look at the consumer financial protection bureau set up after

the oh eight crisis. to protect consumers from the kind of giant rip offs that helped lead to that meltdown. that's been that's been shuttered. this is the agency that evaluates fintech platforms, and musk wants. x to become the wechat of america. wechat being china's. >> sort of all purpose. >> payment system. that that serves as everything else your booking system, your dating system, your not just your financial system. this is more than a conflict of interest. the english language doesn't. that's that's just not that's just not the scale of what we're. seeing here. so he is preceding and succeeding in getting rid of getting rid of regulatory capacity. that that he says or believes holds holds back. >> his business growth. >> and frank. >> your piece. >> is called the hidden costs of musk's washington misadventure. tell us about it. >> well, let's. >> just take elon musk.

>> at his. >> word, which we shouldn't. >> actually, because. >> i do believe that he's trying. to erect a system. >> that is. >> fundamentally corrupt. but let's just say that he was genuinely trying to make the government more efficient. we could all probably agree. that the government should become more efficient. this is the craziest way to do it. >> because he's going. >> in without any context, without any concern for who are the high performing employees and who are the low performing. he's just it's a series of very random. hammer blows in this desire. >> to break. i mean, he's. >> his view is that you need to break in order to essentially fix in the end, theoretically. but the problem is, is that. >> in the course of. >> breaking, you're. creating all sorts. >> of costs. >> because all of the. >> people who are. >> going. >> to be fired are going to sue. >> the government. meritoriously. >> the government will have. >> to defend. itself against those lawsuits. so that's a set of costs. and in terms of destroying capacity, there's capacity that even if you are the most libertarian and randian guy in the. >> world. >> in the end you're going to come to the conclusion that the

government needs to have that capacity. and so you're going to have to go out and replace these employees with contractors who are going to be much more expensive, because you're going to need to pull them in at, you know, in these hastily drawn sorts of ways. and as we've kind of established earlier in the show, there is this. >> you know. >> corruption that's happening. you're not going to get the best contracting talent. you're going to get the people who are the best connected to come in, and it's going to cost us an insane amount of money in. >> the end. >> coming up, the new chairman of the dnc, ken martin, joins us to talk about his vision for the party. morning joe weekend is back in just a moment. >> early. this is morning snack. i can't breathe. i have left not i can't breathe. i have left not enough. i got an idea. n —hi! —hi! ♪♪ chocolate fundraiser. ♪♪

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and the flavor you love. so, here's to now... now available: boost max! >> show me carfax. knowing how. >> a car's accident history >> a car's accident history impacts price means ah mornings! cough? congestion? i'm feeling better. all in one and done... with mucinex kickstart. aaaaaaaaaaaaa. - headache? - better now. mucinex kickstart gives all-in-one and done relief with a morning jolt of instant cooling sensation. it's comeback season. country. >> we are. >> all watching and waiting to see who is going to hold the line. >> don't miss the weekends. >> saturday and sunday mornings at. >> 8:00 on msnbc. >> go beyond the headlines with the msnbc app. read, listen and

watch live breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere. >> go beyond. >> the what? to understand the why. download the msnbc app now. democratic national committee delegates elected ken martin as the party's new chair, setting him up to lead democrats through the second trump administration. martin had been the leader of the minnesota democratic. >> party since 2011. >> and a vice. >> chair of the dnc. >> since 2017. in his. >> campaign for chair, martin emphasized his commitment to giving resources. to democratic. >> state parties. >> in blue. >> purple. >> and red states. >> after winning. >> the race, he also acknowledged. >> the potentially combative nature of the. >> job. >> stating this. >> i have always viewed my role as a chair of the democratic party. >> to take. >> the low road so. >> my candidates. >> and elected officials. >> can take. >> the high road. meaning i'm going to throw a punch. dnc chair. >> ken martin. >> joins us now.

>> today he is kicking off. >> his first official. tour as chair, visiting pennsylvania, texas, illinois, wisconsin and missouri. hopefully he won't take a swing at us. thank you, ken, for being here this morning. we really appreciate it. so you were saying a. >> moment ago as we were. >> getting ready for this segment, you said there were. >> a lot. >> of. challenges ahead. you certainly have a big job ahead of you after what happened in november. that has left a lot of democrats and democratic donors really despairing. to start, what's job one. >> right now? >> it's first off is this tour that we're kicking off today. >> actually. >> which i'm. >> really. >> excited about. when i. >> ran, i said, we need. >> to. >> get the. >> dnc out of dc. and someone said, well, what do you mean? you're moving the headquarters from dc? no, it's a mindset change. it's really focusing back on the states, building a 57 state party strategy up and down the ballot, contesting every race in all 3244 of our counties. we have to be organizing everywhere, which is, by the way, the name of this tour. we're going to be talking with voters, with union members, with farmers door knocking for candidates, holding listening sessions throughout those red,

purple and blue states that we're visiting this week. we need to get the dnc out of dc, out of the beltway, reconnecting our message back with voters. that's job number one, right? so many parts of our coalition left us this last election cycle, right. we know that from latino voters to working class households to young voters to women, you can go down the list. the only two groups that we overperformed with in the last election cycle were wealthy households and college. educated voters. that's a damning indictment on the democratic party. we got to do. >> a better job. >> so that's why we're getting out there to these states this week to reconnect our message to the voters. >> well. >> congratulations, mr. chairman. thank you. and i'll check in in a month to see if you still have that. i congratulate you, but let me ask this. when you look at the fact that a lot of people complain that the democrats were not punching back, that were not fighting, and that they and they were not feeling represented. when you say you're going to throw punches of which which is

welcomed by a lot of people that i talk to around the country, how do we throw punches that are effective without looking reckless at the same time and empower local candidates? they may have to be throwing different punches. >> well, it's a great question and let me say this. in 2016, someone said to me, you know, the republicans are shameless and the democrats are spineless. the first thing we need to do is we need to stand up. if we're not willing to right now resist donald trump. >> and. >> jd vance. >> and elon. >> musk when the stakes are so high for the american people, how in the hell. >> are anyone. >> in this country going to believe that we would stand up and fight for them if they put us back in power? we have to resist. now, we can't just live in that space of perpetual resistance. we need to very strenuously resist donald trump. and i'll get to that in a moment. but we also need to give people a sense of who we are as democrats, what we believe. >> in and what we're fighting for. >> but as it pertains to the resistance, look at what democratic attorney generals are doing, like my friend keith ellison from minnesota, right. they're leading the charge right now and taking on donald trump and jd vance and elon musk

through the courts. right. our democratic congressional members are using the power of their platform to move public sentiment against these cuts that we're seeing in the federal government right now. and it's local elected officials across the country right now. >> who are giving. >> hope to communities who are being ripped apart by this administration right now, that they're going to be safe. democrats are standing up. they're ready for this fight, and i'm happy to lead them. >> so, mr. chairman. >> on the idea of donald. >> trump and. >> what he. >> is doing. >> we want to get your thoughts on a. >> new poll from marquette university. >> law school. it shows that some of trump's policies, such as. >> taking back the panama canal, pardoning january 6th. >> defendants and more are seeing. >> broad opposition, but others are. >> finding some real support. 63% say they support the federal. >> government only. recognizing two sexes. >> 60% say they support. >> deporting immigrants. >> that are here. >> illegally. and 59%. >> say they favor declaring a national emergency due. >> to migrant. >> crossings at the southern border. your fellow democrat,

house minority leader. >> hakeem jeffries. >> was asked about that same poll yesterday. let's all take a listen to his response. >> is there anything you are seeing that trump is doing that you are. >> in. >> favor of, that you think is the right thing? >> let me say, as it relates. >> to all of. >> those issues, we're just at the beginning. >> and the core promise that donald. >> trump made. >> is that he's. >> going to lower costs for everyday americans. in fact, we were told that grocery prices would go down on day one on january 20th. costs aren't lower. in fact, costs are increasing. the price of eggs is skyrocketing. >> out of control. >> inflation is on the way up. that was. >> the core promise. >> that's been broken. >> so, mr. chairman, how do you thread. >> the needle? we heard from. >> the minority leader. they're certainly focusing. >> on prices. >> undeniably, prices. >> have not gone down yet. but we that poll suggests there. >> is some real support for some. >> of what trump is doing and

things that democrats were really. >> dinged for. >> during the last election. >> cycle, particularly on some. >> cultural issues and immigration. >> well, what i would say is this 66% of americans believe that donald trump, jd vance and elon musk are not doing enough to actually bring down prices. that's really what's impacting the majority of americans in this country right now. and that's where they want to see this administration put their focus, instead of actually making it easier for people to afford their lives. what is donald trump focused on? he's focusing on annexing canada. he's focusing on invading panama. he's focusing on buying greenland. right. he's focused on anything but actually helping the american people afford their lives at this moment. and that's where our focus needs to be. he said. and leader jeffries is absolutely right. he said he would bring down prices on day one. he backtracked on that and. >> now he's done nothing. he doesn't even. >> talk about inflation right now. he's focused on everything. but we need an american president who's going to deliver on making it easier for people to afford their lives. donald trump, elon musk and jd vance

are not doing that at this point. >> mr. chairman, i don't. >> know if. >> it's that you don't want. >> to talk about. >> the cultural. >> issues that are in that. >> poll, but 63%. >> of. >> americans think that it is right that the government policy should be there, just. >> have to have. >> two sexes. do you think u.s. government policy should. >> be that there are just two sexes. >> in the country? >> it's not up to me to decide what u.s. policy should be, but what i will tell you is that what people are focused on is their day to day lives, the kitchen table issues that impact their families. and that's where i think democrats. >> don't think there's. >> anything in this. >> poll that gives democrats. >> cause. >> for concern. >> about whether it was. >> gender issues, whether. >> it was immigration. >> that donald trump has. >> something right and that democrats got something wrong on where the american people are. >> what i would say is this we're going to participate in a post-election review to get at exactly this question, which is what happened in this last election that had big parts of our coalition move away from us. i don't know the answer to that right now. right. but what i will say is, what i do know most americans are focused on is what impacts their families at the

kitchen table. right? and that's that's where we're going to be focused on. you know, i think there's going to be plenty of discussion on all of these issues as there should be. right? but again, i think if you talk to americans and you had them rank order, those issues, those issues would be very close to the bottom. >> up next, fresh off the 50th anniversary of saturday night live, we'll have an inside look at the man behind the show. lorne michaels will speak with the author of the new book that explores the long running sketch comedy show and its impact on american culture. morning joe weekend will be right back. >> i feel like new sunglasses, like a brand new pair of jeans. brand new. >> learn more about celebrity cruises latest offers. >> like me. >> sadly. >> windshield chips.

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ahead of stroke risk. this is no time to wait. department of justice. >> the administration. >> doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy. >> main justice. new episodes drop every tuesday. >> stay up to date on. >> the biggest issues. >> of the day. >> with the msnbc daily newsletter. get the best of msnbc all in one place. sign up for msnbc daily at msnbc.com. >> all of our. >> lives were. >> changed by the show. >> everyone in. this room. >> has something else in common. >> none of us. were allowed to use. >> the little bathroom. >> in lauren's office. >> we would love. >> to be working in a coal mine. >> just look at these.

>> coal miners drinking. >> sweet tea. they never had to. >> get notes from lorne. >> see underneath. >> the bleachers with lorne. >> lorne opens the door. >> and he's like, oh, you two. i like what? >> you invited us. you asked us to be here. then he starts pointing at paintings and saying. >> like. >> oh, this is from steve, this is from paul, this is from mick. >> and it's like. >> does he be mick jagger? >> just just. >> say it. >> just say it. >> the reason we're all here. >> the man who made our dreams. >> come true. the one. >> and only. >> oh. and paul. no, no. lorne michaels, where is. >> so good? look at just some of the jokes about lorne michaels at snl's 50th anniversary show on sunday at the helm of saturday night live. for most of the past half century, lorne has become a comedic institution

unto himself, earning more than 100 emmy nominations and creating a cultural touchstone now spanning several generations. joining us now the articles editor at the new yorker, susan morrison. she's the author of the new biography entitled lorne the man who invented saturday night live. and it's great to have you on the show to talk about this. tell us about some of the things we learned in this book, including what is born name is, but also how the book is divided into six parts monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday, friday, and saturday. >> lorne was born lorne liebowitz in toronto and made his way to new. >> york. >> after a dozen years bouncing around. kind of. cruddy variety shows in la. and after the 40th. anniversary ten years ago, i started thinking about how there's no one who. >> has had. >> a bigger impact on what. >> makes americans. >> laugh. >> what we think. >> is funny.

>> over the. >> last four decades. and people don't know anything about him, you know, to the wider comedy. >> world. >> he's he's this, this wizard of oz figure, this, this object of. obsession that they're all trying to figure out. but i think the general viewer of snl has no idea of this. so in writing this book, i both wanted to tell you his life story and to get close, you know, to watch sort of from his elbow as this insane production happens every single week. it's a little bit like the hunger games. it begins on monday, and by saturday everyone is half dead. but you know, if they're lucky, we're all laughing. >> so there is sort of a truism. >> that it seems. >> like everyone in show. business has a lorne michaels impression. >> but so many people don't really know him. >> you know, how have you give us a sampling. >> if you will, how you think. >> he's evolved. >> how his. >> sensibilities have evolved in the 50 years of the show. >> you, of. >> course, we saw celebrated over the weekend, right? >> well. >> in the first five years, one of his key writers was michael o'donoghue, who was a national

lampoon refugee with a really caustic sense of humor. a lot of the gags were things like impressions of mike douglas having needles plunged in his eyes, you know, really dark, dark humor. and over the years, he's embraced his his the motto for the last 40 years, i would say, is do it in sunshine. he's always reminding his writers and cast that comedy is entertainment. it should make you feel good. the costumes should be bright colors. people should, you know, look like they're having fun. he he reminds them that people watch television as if they're huddled around a fireplace. you know, they want to go there for comfort and uplift to a certain extent. and i think that that, that it's the sunshine aspect of comedy that is the thing that's been the most enduring. >> you know. >> susan, there's a certain a big element. >> of genius. within lorne michaels. >> and yet if you ask the average. >> person, tv.

>> viewer. >> you know. >> what do you think of. >> lorne michaels stuff? i'd say who? what? right. >> but to me, he's always. >> had a shade of perhaps. >> the old jack warner. louis b. >> mayer movie moguls who. >> ran the. >> business from behind a desk and nobody knew them. >> is there anything to that? >> i think that's a that's a great observation. i mean, lorne always says that if you're as a producer, if you're doing it right, you leave no fingerprints. but the fact is, his fingerprints are on every second of that show. it's so meticulously produced. and in terms of the studio bosses, what he has produced over the decades, it's almost like an update of the studio system. you know, he's created a culture with walls around it where, you know, generations of performers and writers all kind of play in the same sandbox together. they he lets them kind of experiment, throw things around, bounce things off each other, and they all act in each other's projects. and it's almost as if he's a guy who's had children with 5 or 6 wives. you know,

generations of children, and they're all always working together at these big, crazy family reunions. >> don't go away. we have a second hour of morning joe weekend on this sunday morning, weekend on this sunday morning, coming up right after the so, what are you thinking? i'm thinking... (speaking to self) about our honeymoon. what about africa? safari? hot air balloon ride? swim with elephants? wait, can we afford a safari? great question. like everything, it takes a little planning. or, put the money towards a down-payment... ...on a ranch ...in montana ...with horses let's take a look at those scenarios. j.p. morgan wealth management has advisors in chase branches and tools, like wealth plan to keep you on track. when you're planning for it all... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management. david takes prevagen for his brain and this is his story. nice to meet ya. my name is david. i've been a pharmacist for 44 years. when i have customers come in, i recommend prevagen. number one, because it's effective. does not require a prescription.

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we have much more to get to this sunday, so let's get right back to it with more interviews that

we didn't want you to miss. >> back in 2009. those town hall meetings, barack obama had just won a massive landslide. he had 59 democratic senators. everything was going their direction. then they started debating the obamacare, the affordable care act, and you started seeing these town hall meetings with these popular democrats, starting to answer really tough questions from their constituents. this, of course, is starting to happen. but if you were, claire, are these other members of congress, you had answers because these bills were going through subcommittees and committees and then going on to the house floor that that congressman last night, he had no idea. he just had no idea what's going on, because. >> really. >> very few people have any idea. >> what's going on. and there's a word i'm sorry to keep.

>> going here, but there's a word that that one of the constituents said last night that really stood out. and that is sloppy. this is so sloppy. this is. so haphazard. this this is. actually a chainsaw approach. and democrats just have to be over the moon right now with they've got their image of elon musk. he's got the chainsaw held up in the air and it's a split screen there. and on the other side you have medical research being slashed, workers being cut from the nih. you've got faa workers being cut. you've got tsa workers being cut. you've got the irs agents that deal. >> with working. >> class and middle class americans who call to get, you know, their refunds in a timely manner. they're being all of this is going on. and democrats

finally, it looks like democrats are finally being given some issues that they can really start to work on. >> yeah, i mean, look. >> you. >> know, there is a legitimate and important debate to have about the size of government and whether an agency is performing well, whether it has the right number of people, too many or too few. all that is true. >> that's not. >> what's happening here. we're not. >> having. >> a thoughtful debate about the size of government and where things make sense and where they don't. we're just seeing, as he shows with that image at cpac, taking a chainsaw to it. i think that they love that image because it just, like makes them look manly and, you know, powerful. and they're taking on the deep state. and that's appealing on some level to a lot of maga republicans. on the other hand, there are a lot of people who voted for trump who do think the government needs to be reined in but don't like as that constituents say, constituents, said a sloppy, you know, haphazard approach where they're firing the nuclear safety people one day and oops, they have to rehire them the next, or the bird flu people one day are fired. oops. we need to

rehire them again. that's not a thoughtful and smart way of doing things. in the view of a lot of republicans, republicans who think that there ought to be a methodical and important debate here. now, a lot of republicans say, look, you know, we've tried that over the years, didn't work. so let's give this a shot, see what happens. but the political cost could eventually backlash on trump and elon musk. >> you know, i a couple days ago, john heilemann, i talked about going back to washington for the 30th anniversary of our class of 1994. and there are a lot of us very proud of the fact that we went up there when everybody said, there's no way we could balance the budget. we went up there and with the help of a lot of people, we balance a budget. >> for. >> the first time in a generation. we balanced it four years in a row for the only time over the past 100 years. and i was struck by what newt gingrich said when he was talking about how that happened. he said it was hard, hard work. it was hard work for the subcommittee

members. it was hard work for the committee members. it was hard work for john kasich and the budget committee, he said, you know, people ask us, how did we do it? he said. we it was really hard. it took 235 people all. >> working. >> together, trying to figure out how to balance the budget. keep the economy strong. and balance a thousand different interests. right. you had none of that here. and again, the word. that the. constituents said last night. sloppy. that's what you've got here. so this idea that republicans, all republicans want a guy wielding a chainsaw and just slashing nih budgets, slashing us aid budgets. there are some of us who are very proud of what george w bush did with saving 25 million lives in africa, slashing faa, slashing tsa. i'm sorry. i'll just say it. that's

not what. >> a lot of republicans. >> voted. for donald trump for. right? and 100% joe. and the thing i keep reflecting on in these moments as you talk about that era and of course, you know, in that era when you guys balance the budget. >> those four consecutive. >> years, you also had something else. you had hard work and political necessity and compromise on the part of bill clinton in the white house who had, you know, realized that if he didn't get on board the balanced budget train, he was going to not get reelected in 1996. and so, you know, that's not here either, right? that that was a the effort, the amount of effort it took to achieve what you guys achieved needed all of that hard work on the republican side. it also needed to have a partner on the other side of the aisle. hey, john, the democrats, who many, many of whom did not want to balance the budget, but bill clinton realized the political necessity of it. yeah, yeah, yeah. i just wanted to say, john, i'm so glad you brought up

bill clinton, because we both did. both parties worked together. even the middle of like, political fighting. bill clinton worked with newt gingrich. even in the middle of impeachment. they were calling each other and talking on iraq on on the budget. they continue talking, but. also they made tough choices. i got elected in part because i ran against bill clinton's tax increases in 1993. those tax increases in 1993 that elected a lot of us republicans. that helped in balancing the budget, just like in 95 and 96, a lot of people that came in with me lost their elections because they made a lot of spending cuts that weren't really popular. so you had democrats, bill clinton and democrats making sacrifices, a lot of people losing their

political jobs and republicans doing the same thing a couple years later and taken together with parties working together and leon panetta as budget director and john kasich as as the chairman of the budget committee, everybody working together. >> and a. >> remarkable thing happened. we did something that we haven't done in a century. and so and so here's the thing about this, joe, that the point that i want to get at is you, you and i and peter baker and molly and pretty much everyone who comes on this show can have a conversation where we all know what we're talking about here. this history is familiar to us. we lived through it. we reported on it. we were in the in the congress. in your case during it, we know this history and it's illustrative. it's illuminating of what's going on now, a lot of these dynamic dynamics in washington are, are we see them recur over and over again throughout history. i'll tell you someone who doesn't know this history, i bet every dollar in your pocket is elon musk, who

could not have this conversation. and everything that he does reflects not just a kind of ignorance about how the government works, how to approach making the. if you were serious about trying to take on the size and scope of government in a way that was politically sustainable and humane, and even in some ways pretty radical, you would not do it this way. you would not do it with a chainsaw. so if he knew the history, he wouldn't be going about it this way if he was trying to go about it in good faith. and if he knew the history of our politics, he would know that brandishing a chainsaw at cpac is very popular among a very small part of the republican party. brandishing a chainsaw at cpac is also very popular among a lot of democrats who will use that in campaign ads going forward. you know, you live by the chainsaw, die by the chainsaw. that is a guy who does not know the story of george bush and the mission accomplished sign and what kind of damage those kind of images could do politically to a party. i just think, you know, this is

one of these things where for everyone who's been freaking out about what's been. happening here, they're right to freak out. there's a lot of serious bad stuff happening. but, you know, to everything, to everything. there's a season. and as you're starting to see in these town halls, the seasons are about to start changing. on trump and elon musk. >> you're watching morning joe weekend. we'll be right back. >> my eyes, they're dry, uncomfortable looking for extra hydration. now there's blink neutral tears. it works differently than drops. blink neutral tears is a once daily supplement clinically proven to hydrate from within, helping your eyes produce more of their own tears. to promote lasting, continuous relief. you'll feel day after day. try blink neutral tears a different way to support dry eyes. >> blink. >> want the fastest working glp one for half the price? ro now

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still checks and balances. there's a lot being thrown at the american people right now, and it is really important to pay attention to it. but it is just as important to recognize how many of those things are getting announced. but they're not happening at all, or at least not yet. just try to remember we are not looking at the final score. we are still in the first quarter. keep your pads on. the game has just begun. >> tonight. >> the latest piece for vanity fair titled trump world's war on words. >> in it. >> you write in part this. >> it feels ironic. >> to talk about the importance of language in maga rhetoric when donald trump uses. >> so many. >> malapropisms as shorthand to convey. >> his ideas. >> but while trump may not be particularly. careful about every word or any word really, his administration and allies are laser focused on their intrinsic power. they've used phrases like biological reality and naming to dispute

transgender people's existence, and to rail against gender reassignment surgery. they disingenuously. >> use words like. >> energy emergency to ramp up offshore drilling. trump and his allies understand the power of words, and his administration is quickly becoming one that's obsessed with perverting their meaning. and molly, we're seeing the war the trump world has declared on the associated press because of language. gulf of america versus gulf of mexico. and then as as we just highlighted now, you know, using the word dictator, you know, for vladimir zelensky. tell us more about what you wrote. >> so there's. >> a lesson here. >> for democrats. >> which i do. think is useful. >> which is. >> that trump, when he was on the trail. >> he. >> spoke so much. >> he. >> did so many. >> interviews that his people got. >> so used. to his. >> talking that they were. >> able to understand. >> what he was saying. >> with shorthand. >> so, for. >> example. >> they knew. >> that bacon. >> right, was. >> a sort of weave.

>> remember that phrase. >> a weave on inflation? and that. >> was in. >> a way. >> that is. a good. >> lesson for democrats, right? >> that if. >> you want. >> to try. >> and. >> message against. >> donald trump, you need. >> to be messaging. >> all the. >> time, not. >> one interview a week. >> you know, 15 interviews a day. you need to be out there. >> flooding the zone. >> so that, i would say, is a way he's. >> used. >> language very effectively. now, that said, there are words that this administration uses. and if you look at these executive orders, they are peppered. through them. things like patriotic education. right. what is patriotic. education mean? well, we know. >> what it. >> doesn't mean, right? >> it doesn't. >> mean, you know, sort of. >> the. >> truth about some of the parts of american. >> history. >> that do. >> not fit the. >> trump narrative. >> and i think. >> that is really important. >> and i would. >> say that. >> the i think the rallying cry in this piece is that we should. >> look at language. >> the way we use it. >> for sure. >> and the way that trump world

uses it. >> you know, john heilemann, let let's let's go back to foreign policy for a minute. and. it just seems like this is one of those issues that even republicans may not be willing. all republicans, especially senators, may not be willing to follow donald trump down that path. they certainly weren't in the first term, and many of them were just as scared of donald trump politically in the first term as they are now. but my god, i can tell you, my family turned in part from being democrats to republicans because my dad was a cold warrior. and i mean, this i mean, that was the defining issue for so many of these people who are republicans now. and so it it i think, i think it just the ideological

contortion may even be too great for them to suddenly say, vladimir putin is the good guy. and zelensky who got invaded is the dictator and bad guy. what are you hearing? well, i think it's a big moment, joe, for the reasons you're saying. i mean, look, we you talked earlier about the fact that that during the first trump term that there were these tough sanctions on russia, to a large extent, that was was led by republicans in congress who, who, who passed those those sanctions through the congress. they were passed legislatively. they they also were pushing back on trump's softness on putin, trying to keep him from indulging in his worst instincts with respect to putin. and i think the thom tillis thing is striking. we saw that. you know, he where he. >> you know. >> came out. >> and really broke very publicly with trump yesterday on this question. i think it's striking because tillis is up for reelection in two years, has toed the line pretty much across the board on all the trump nominees, many of whom, you

know, thom tillis understands that tulsi gabbard and kash patel and bobby kennedy junior that these are not nominees that he would vote for if it was outside the political context, but because he fears trump and fears being primaried, he went along with the administration. i believe in all of those cases. but here he is on this issue, deciding to break, and i think it is consequential. and not that suddenly there's going to be a massive rupture in the republican party is going to suddenly find collective courage. but i can tell you that many republicans, you and i know in the united states senate are have been sitting around this week looking at the cover of the economist magazine saying europe's worst nightmare with trump and putin at the end of a negotiating table and a bunch of empty seats reading in the financial times that after the munich security conference, european diplomats being quoted saying america is the threat to europe. now, these people, a lot of them don't have any time for

joe biden. but the one thing they liked about joe biden was the way he strengthened nato over his four years in office. and i think they are very uncomfortable. i mean, profoundly uncomfortable with what they've seen on this front with donald trump this week. well, profoundly uncomfortable in mali. we're talking about also handing china. is this a dream for china? you know, china has been trying to improve their relations with the eu for years now. china has been trying to build trade relations with the eu for years now. it's not just the united states. we're just not in a position to say, take what we're dishing out or else this is a multipolar world now, as powerful and strong as the united states economy is, as i say all the time, you know, the eu has like a $26 trillion gdp every year as well. add britain on top of that, they're up to 30 at japan at us. i mean, there's a lot of money out there. there's a lot of trade out there. and china would love to.

>> lap it up. >> well, i think what claire mccaskill said earlier was a good point. a lot of these. republican senators sort of know what's right, and they've given away a lot of their power by rubber stamping a lot of these nominees. now, the question is, will they try to take it back. >> up next? the latest from capitol hill is the senate moves forward with its budget bill, despite president trump's endorsement of the proposal from the house. we'll break down both plans and the impact they could plans and the impact they could have on americans. that's i'm not a doctor. i'm not even in a doctor's office. i'm standing on the streets talking to real people about their heart. how's your heart? my heart's pretty good. you sure? i think so. how do you know? you're driving a car, you have the check engine light. but the heart doesn't have a hey, check heart sign. i want to show you something. put both fingers right on those pads. there you go. in 30 seconds we're going to have a medical-grade ekg reading. there it is! that is you. look at that. with kardiamobile, you can take a medical-grade ekg

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provider at. >> steve why don't you've got charts on this. set the scene for us on just how big, big the national debt problem is at this point. >> yeah. i mean. >> before we delve. >> into the. >> details of the house package, let's let's just remind ourselves and everybody just how bad this problem already is before we get to anything else that might happen. so here's the

federal budget deficit. >> going back. >> to 2018. >> and you can see we. >> were down here. in the 500 billion. >> or trillion range. >> and then covid hits. fine. the deficit jumps up. we would all expect that. and that's what government is here for. it did. >> drop down again. >> but now it. >> is. >> on this. >> relentless rise. >> and these are projections. >> the green bars going all the way out. >> here to over $2.5 trillion of deficits a year. this is not how it is supposed to work. >> when things. >> are relatively good and the economy is growing, we should be having a lower deficit and saving our firepower to use when we have a problem. >> that's not what's. happening here. >> at the moment. even before you get to any of. >> the president's. >> new proposals, that, of course, has. >> led to. >> a lot more debt. debt. we now have 30 trillion, over $30 trillion of debt for the. first time in our history, except world war two. we will have debt that's equal to 100% the size of. >> our economy. >> it's gone up under republican presidents. >> and. democratic presidents. >> but the. scorecard over the

last 40 years. >> out of. >> curiosity, is. >> 14 or so trillion dollars added under republican presidents, about 12.5 trillion under democratic presidents. so there are not clean hands on either side. and then. >> given the size. >> of those deficits, not surprisingly, the debt, the debt will. >> continue to. >> rise sharply and well exceed the rate of growth of our economy. >> okay. so let's if you could explain to us how the gop plan will work, would work. take us through the numbers. so with the. >> house approved yesterday is what, as you said, trump likes to call one big, beautiful bill that encompasses all of the things they're trying to get done. there are some very complicated parliamentary reasons why. >> it actually needs to be. >> in one big, beautiful bill. but whatever. so the. signature piece of it, of course, are tax cuts. >> and i'll talk a bit more. >> about those later. but up to $4.5 trillion of tax cuts over. >> the. >> next ten years. and then spending. >> increases a few. spending increases for their priorities.

>> judiciary and homeland are. >> both basically border. >> oriented spending and. >> then defense. >> which both parties, to a considerable degree needs to have spent. >> more. >> on them. so roughly $300 billion more spending. >> but then. >> they're talking. about cutting. >> a lot of spending. >> and so. >> the energy commerce committee. >> is tasked with cutting $880 billion worth. >> of spending. >> it's expected that that could be heavily. >> out of medicaid. >> it could. >> represent about 10% of our. medicaid spending. >> and so they're. >> very. >> focused on. >> spending on medicaid. >> but there's another guy who's not so focused on medicaid. take a listen. >> sure. >> look, social security won't be touched other than this fraud or something we're going to find it's going to be strengthened, but it won't be touched. medicare, medicaid, none of that stuff is going to be touched. nothing. i won't have to. now, if there are illegal migrants in the system, we're going to get them out of the system. all of

that fraud. but it's not going to be touched. we're going to love and cherish social security, medicare, medicaid. we're not going to do anything with that other than if we can find some abuse or waste. we'll do something, but the people won't be affected. it will only be more effective and better. >> so this. >> wasn't a campaign promise. >> this is stuff he. >> said since he's been president, contradicting. >> what the house is doing. >> so it's going to be a very interesting. >> process on medicaid, which. >> is. >> obviously a very. sensitive subject. and by the. >> way, programs like medicaid. >> like food stamps. >> that he's. >> talking about, cutting. >> as much as 20%. >> of the house, talking about cutting. as much as. 20% of red. >> states actually get. >> a disproportionate. >> amount of this money. so it's going to be interesting to see how congress. people hear what they hear in their districts and what they say. student loans. >> another big target could cut about. >> 10% out of student loans. >> and then there's another 500, 500 billion. >> of unspecified spending. 62 of. >> it would be what's called oversight. those are federal pensions. so he's talking about

cutting. >> they're talking. >> about cutting. $50 billion. out of federal pensions. but when you add all this up. >> the administration, which. >> says it's going to reduce the deficit, actually has. >> a plan to. >> increase the deficit. >> by $2.8 trillion. >> over the next. >> ten years. >> and so if you look here. >> this is the same chart we just. looked at. you add in these new deficit increases. and you can see that instead of even dropping. >> for a couple of years. >> it doesn't drop. >> at all. >> and it just. >> goes up. >> further and further. >> so lastly steve you're going to show us how the gop tax cuts favor the rich. >> yeah. >> there's some interesting stuff in the. >> in the tax part of this. and basically. >> what they want to do. >> the central part of it is. extending the tax cuts that were voted in 2017 that would expire. >> at the end of this year. >> it was another bit of budget gimmick. gimmick gimmickry would. >> expire at the end of this year, absent. >> a renewal. but those tax cuts are what we call highly regressive, meaning they favor the wealthy. substantially over the less wealthy. so people in

the. >> lowest 20% of the economy. would get a 6/10 of a percent increase in their after tax. >> wages under this plan. and people all the way up through the fourth, through the top, through the. 80% below the. top. >> get still 1.4% or less. >> when you. >> get up here, the top 20%, the top 1%, you see the percent increase they get in their after tax income. let's turn that into dollars. if you're down here, you're going to get $1,000. you might get $1,900 if you're close to the top. the top quartile gets 9000. the top 1% gets an average of $70,000. so these are again what. >> we call highly. >> regressive tax cuts. generally, we like to see them. >> favor people. >> at the bottom, not at the top. these are. >> the opposite. >> coming up here we'll discuss the ways in which president trump's pivot toward putin's russia completely upends several generations of u.s. policy. keep

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and not one dome would have been knocked down. but they chose not to do it that way. >> and this is one of those situations. shocking. but given everything that donald trump has said since 2015 about vladimir putin, unfortunately not surprising, right? >> i think it's really important. >> to. >> begin with. >> putin's goals in this war, that he has stated repeatedly that others around him have also repeated. >> that have. >> been. >> repeated on. >> russian television. >> in the last few days. >> putin's goal. >> is the destruction of. ukraine as a nation. >> he wants. >> to replace. >> the leader of ukraine, volodymyr zelensky, the. >> elected democratic. >> leader. >> with the pro-russian puppet. >> he does. >> not. >> want to see. >> ukrainian democracy survive. >> he wants ukraine to be folded into the russian empire. as of today, he has not given up any. >> of those goals. >> that he now hopes. >> to. >> pursue them through

negotiation, through convincing trump that ukraine started the war. ukraine is to blame through appealing to trump's. desire to end. >> the war quickly. and have. >> a kind of. propaganda victory. >> it's really important that people around the president. >> make sure. >> that he understands what the result. >> of a. russian victory. >> would be. >> when the. >> russians, you just heard it from the wall. >> street journal editorial. >> page when the russians occupied ukrainian territory in cities. >> they murder. >> people, they rape. >> women. they they conduct mass torture. >> they. >> destroy buildings, they kidnap children. >> ukrainians don't want this to happen. >> to them. you know. >> a defeat or destruction. >> of. >> ukraine would. lead to mass chaos. it would. >> lead. >> to millions. >> of refugees. >> it would lead to permanent chaos. >> in europe, as well as. >> a. >> triumph for the broader. autocratic world who are watching this negotiation very closely. i really hope. that is. >> is taken.

>> away from this. >> path and. >> doesn't make this mistake. >> well, let us let us hope for the good of the free world. we just read from the wall street journal, owned by rupert murdoch. let's read an editorial this morning from the new york post, also owned by rupert murdoch. ukraine is the victim of this war, not to mention our ally, writes the new york post editorial board. and the president's off the cuff remarks about zelensky late tuesday were wildly their emphasis, not mine. off base quote. you've been there for three years. you should have ended it. you should have never started it. the new york post writes he didn't start it. >> their emphasis. >> and he's had no chance. their emphasis to end it except by surrendering to. >> the blood. >> soaked invader. whatever negotiating tactics trump. >> cares to use. >> he's turning the truth completely upside down. and that

ought to be beneath him. >> peter baker. >> we've we've always seen that donald trump has a close affinity. it seems, to vladimir putin. we remember back helsinki. we remember what he said in this show in 2015, where he refused to condemn vladimir putin and said the united states kills people as well. this false equivalency between barack obama and vladimir putin. in fact, there was no equivalency. he attacked obama and said at least putin was a strong leader who, yes, killed journalists and killed killed politicians. but here you have the new york post, the wall street journal editorial page. i know you've got republicans on the hill, on the house and the senate side who obviously are going to vehemently disagree with what donald trump has said. what can you tell us about what what what

went into this, the thinking here and also what his negotiators, what marco rubio, who has been an ardent cold warrior throughout his career, what they must be thinking right now. >> yeah. i mean, look, this goes back a long way for trump. he has bought into the russian line for a long time that it was ukraine, not russia, that interfered in the 2016 election. and they interfered, as he has been told, against him, which, of course is not true. he was that was at the heart of his first impeachment, where he blamed ukraine for his political troubles. ukraine, to him is an is an adversary, not a friend. now, he said this before, but i don't think you ever had quite a stark an understanding of that, as we did yesterday, where he talked movingly about the death and destruction and devastation in ukraine, but didn't seem to blame vladimir putin for any of it. he acted as if it was all ukraine's fault that their own country had been invaded. he was acting as if ukraine's fault, that their own people were being killed and slaughtered. and it was a really a striking, if not

stunning, you know, exposition on his part. not one word of reproach for vladimir putin, not one word of reproach for russia, which started the war. everything about zelensky and he talked, as you rightly said, inaccurately, about all sorts of things, said the united states had spent three times as much as europe on ukraine. that's not true. said that zelensky was at 4%, as you rightly said. that's not true. also said that that bought into the russian line that zelensky should have to have elections before going into any negotiation. didn't say a thing about elections in russia, by the way, where they've been tarnished and warped and manipulated for decades now under vladimir putin. only in ukraine should there have to be elections, not in russia. so it's a very one sided, of course. look at this. and the and the side that american presidents have never actually taken before. coming up, a conversation about what some say is the biggest issue in politics that nobody is talking about. that nobody is talking about. we'll explain that baby: liberty! mom: liberty mutual is all she talks

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>> saturday and sunday mornings at. >> 8:00 on msnbc. >> you have to move a lot of people out of. >> the way. >> of a. >> big housing project or. >> slum clearance. >> project, like. >> say. >> lincoln square or whatever the objective. >> may be. or out of the way of an approach to. >> a bridge that. >> they're not. >> a lot of them are. >> not going. >> to like it. >> many of them are misinformed. many of them, in the end, come around to feel. >> that they've done them a great service. >> that was new york state official robert moses in a 1959 interview with nbc explaining his theory of power. moses, of course, was later immortalized by the author robert caro in the famed book the power broker. caro is moses is one of the most famous unelected bureaucrats in american history, gaining notoriety for displacing low income communities in new york city in the mid-20th century to build his infrastructure projects. joining us now a fellow at brown university, watson institute for international public affairs, mark jay. he's the author of the

new book with the title why nothing works who killed progress and how to bring it back. in it, mark argues that modern progressives have stifled their own policy agenda by enacting reforms intended to stop another robert moses from ever existing. mark. also, full disclosure a good friend of mine from college, mark, great to see you this morning. congratulations on this book. i've already read it. it's brilliant. can't recommend it highly enough, but give us a better sense of that central argument that progressives, well-meaning progressives, have gotten in the way of projects that they inherently should be supporting. >> so the. >> beginning of the of the progressive. >> movement was. an effort to build. >> up big institutions that could do big things to. wire up the tennessee valley, which. >> is sort of the. quintessential example of the. new deal bringing electricity to poor farms in a swath. >> of. >> the country about. >> the size of england. >> and. >> was enormously powerful. >> the federal officials who. >> did that could make.

>> decisions sort of not almost on a whim. >> there was. >> no, no, no pushback from the community. >> and there couldn't be. and we woke up progressives in. >> the 60s and. >> 70s and realized that these officials weren't always doing. >> the. >> things that were the best for the country. >> that some of them were self self-serving, corrupt. >> they were. >> taking too much. >> power. >> for themselves. and we decided that the solution. was to give more power to ordinary people, to fight back. >> and so for the last. 50 years, we've really spent our time. >> and focus. >> trying to build new. >> checks on federal power so that robert moses type figures don't abuse and coerce. people who typically. >> don't have a. >> lot. >> of power. >> and the. >> checks. >> are now so voluminous that you can't get good things done just as much as you. >> can't get bad things done. >> so you've got lots of projects we need to do in this country, but it's just too hard to get. >> them accomplished. >> so, mark, in the book, you discern how the left and the right to be clear, the right as well are responsible for

government not functioning properly. you write in part this conservatives can and should be assigned some bulk of the blame for convincing portions of the public that government is invariably bad. not only that, public authority is wasteful, corrupt and ineffective, but that it is an agent of moral decay. that's long been their bread and butter, and they should own it. but progressives can't hide from the reality that we, too, have burnished the same narrative the movement's determination to protect against latter day robert moses types now serves not only to thwart abuse, but also to undermine government's ability to do big things by helping to render government incompetent. we have pried open the door for maga style populism, and we share culpability for the public's frustration. and marc, let's, you know, let's take this to the present day. we're seeing what elon musk and empowered by president trump are doing. they vilified government tearing it down and potentially its ability to do big things or even some small ones. >> i think that's right.

>> the frustration. >> that people have. >> that government simply doesn't work was bound to. be it. was bound to. >> open the door. >> to a maga type populist movement. if. >> our basic. >> premises that. >> the democrats. >> are the party of government and government. isn't working, then that's a terrible. >> political challenge for democrats who want to be elected. so our movement. >> needs to be saying to. >> itself. >> beyond the terrible things. >> that trump is doing, beyond trying to convince the public that he is not worthy of. >> our. >> of our support. >> or or. >> is that is an ineffective. >> and a. >> lousy chief executive. we need to. >> be showing that. >> we are going to make government work again, that we're going to be able. to empower the right people to make important decisions, like where a bridge should go, where a housing project should be built, how we're going to get clean energy back into the grid. these are things. >> that we. >> should be accomplishing on our own, and we should be. >> thinking more.

>> about how we get that done, rather than creating. >> additional barriers. i think. >> that the public's perception is it's just impossible to get a good idea. >> off the ground today. >> and so if government doesn't work, why are we going to give it more power? >> coming up, our conversation with award winning actress daisy ridley. she joins us with a look at her brand new action movie. at her brand new action movie. that's straight ahead here on dry... tired... itchy, burning... my dry eye symptoms got worse over time. my eye doctor explained the root was inflammation. xiidra was made for that, so relief is lasting. xiidra treats the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease. don't use if allergic to xiidra and seek medical help if needed. common side effects include eye irritation, discomfort, blurred vision, and unusual taste sensation. don't touch container tip to your eye or any surface. before using xiidra, remove contact lenses and wait fifteen minutes before re-inserting. dry eye over and over? it's time for xiidra. are you looking for a walk-in tub for you or someone you love? well, look no further! a safe step walk-in tub is the best in its class.

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>> one of the cleaners. >> find them. >> get a grip. your brother needs you. >> put it down. >> are you are. see if you can do better than the last three. holes you sent. if i did, the cleaner. >> economy. >> you got this. truly. oh, everyone's going to personally tell me if you touch. >> it, i will end you. >> that was a look at. >> the new action film titled cleaner stars. actress daisy ridley is joey, a military veteran and a window cleaner at a high rise in london, whose. ordinary workday takes a dramatic turn when radical environmental activists take 300 hostages at her building,

including joey's own brother. let's bring in. daisy ridley now. daisy, thank you so much for being with us. it you're introduced as a cleaner. >> and i think. calling this movie cleaner would be like calling a biopic on winston churchill painter, because. >> you're so much more. >> than a window cleaner. talk about. >> what we quickly learned as as viewers of the movie. >> we quickly learned that the character i play. >> joey. >> is in a rush. she's already having a bit of a day, gets to work, and things. >> should be. >> proceeding as. >> usual. and she loses. >> contact with her. >> boss. >> has to. >> climb to figure out what's. >> going on, and there is a siege, and she has to then work because she's. >> outside. >> of the building. >> she has. >> to work. >> to get. >> in the building and try and save everybody's lives. >> including her brother. >> and there's a bit of a redemption story here, isn't there? because joey feels guilty

about how badly she's treated her brother her whole life. and so rescue would equal redemption, right? >> yeah. >> it's a. >> really beautiful. >> i think martin campbell, who's obviously known for amazing action. >> movies, his films always. >> have such heart. and the heart. >> of this movie is joey and. >> her brother. and they. >> had a very difficult childhood. she is in more of a caregiving position, and. >> she's trying. >> but she has not always succeeded in being a great sibling. >> so when the time pressure. >> is. >> on and she realizes. >> it's. >> now or. >> never, she is. >> trying to atone for. the way she hasn't been the. >> best sibling. you do. >> your own stunts. you did your own stunts. >> in the. >> star wars movies. >> so talk to us about what. >> that's like. >> and is. >> it scary? and do you have scars? i do have scars. >> there was one moment in this. >> that i. >> hit the set so.

>> hard the. >> everything rattled. >> i thought i broke something, so i was in a lot of pain. and also i had a fake tattoo and it cut through the tattoo. >> so the. >> tattoo. >> had to live on my skin because i couldn't cross. >> yeah. there. >> it's sort of an amazing adrenaline rush. >> but also. >> it's i love learning a new skill for. >> a job. >> a physical skill. >> and particularly. >> with this, joey. >> is so in her body. she loves fighting. she loves climbing. so much of her physical world. leads to how she precedes in the movie. >> could you actually. >> talk a little. >> bit more about what you. >> did to prepare for that to become joey? >> i mean, did you go to a rock climbing wall? >> what exactly. >> did. >> you do? i did some climbing in the studio. i had weirdly trained for another film that ended up not happening, so i had some rock climbing experience, but it was about. >> six weeks. >> and every day. >> we'd do 3. >> or 4 hours of fighting choreography. and then i had to get very comfortable on ropes. i had to learn to clean windows. which is really difficult. so

that was in the run up to it. and then trying to maintain that through the film. >> yeah. >> sounds like preparation for this show. >> we make you do all those. >> things before he comes on the show. daisy, let's take a look at another clip where your character, joey has to fight for her and her brother's survival. >> oh, god. so what? jump, jump. what? go go go! jump jump! get down! >> yeah, yeah. >> oh! god. yeah yeah yeah yeah. oh! no. look look look. oh! no, >> no. >> you got it, got it. oh.

>> yeah. yeah yeah. >> sorry. >> oh i've got to. >> say it i mean this is like the highest compliment possible. there's some john mcclane there, isn't there. there's. >> there's a little bit. >> of die hard in there, is there not? >> well, i. >> jokingly called it. >> dry shod because we. >> were originally supposed to. >> film on the shard. i feel like. it's a real. >> love letter to. >> die hard, except i'm on the outside of the building. >> and that's. >> all the time we have for this weekend. thank you for spending part of your sunday with us. we're back in the chair tomorrow morning at 6 a.m. eastern to kick off a brand new week of morning joe. until then, have a great day. >> good morning. >> it is sunday, february 23rd. i'm alicia