>> so that does it for the weekend this sunday morning. we'll see you back here next saturday at 8 a.m. eastern. and be sure to follow us on social media at the weekend. msnbc velshi continues our coverage. ali, i hand it to you. good sir. >> thank you, my friend. i was telling you yesterday how much i was. >> enjoying being out of the cold weather. somebody here heard it in the studio in miami. this is where, you know, katie phang works out of. it got. >> real cold. let me. >> just tell you, i am. >> it's new york cold in this in this studio right now. so someone's. >> getting me back. >> you guys have a great. >> rest of your day. and velshi. >> starts now. hi. good morning. it is sunday, february the 23rd. it's day 35 of donald trump's second term. tomorrow marks three years since russia launched its full scale invasion of ukraine.

>> in that time, more. >> than a million people have been killed or wounded as a result of the war. millions of others have been displaced. internally or have fled to other countries where they've claimed refugee status. the ukrainian capital, ukraine's capital kyiv, still stands and is under ukrainian control, despite russian troops occupying land just eight miles from the city center. in the early days of the war. just hours ago, kyiv was one of a number of cities that was hit by another russian attack, according to. >> the ukrainian air force. >> the attack was carried out by 267 drones that entered ukrainian airspace. today, that's the single largest drone attack since russia launched the war. there is a new level of uncertainty about ukraine's future. now that. >> donald trump has. >> returned to the white house. president trump campaigned on ending the war in ukraine, but. >> his early. >> actions regarding the conflict suggest that he's unbothered. about upending the post-world war two order that was built and largely led by the

united states. it was just days ago when he falsely called ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky. >> a dictator. >> on top of that, trump sided with russia, the aggressor, by parroting kremlin disinformation that blamed. ukraine for having started the war. during his speech at cpac last night, trump told the crowd of conservatives that his administration is close to reaching a deal to end the war, and shortly afterwards, the white house press secretary, caroline leavitt, added during a gaggle with reporters that, quote, the president is very confident we can get it done this week, end quote. now, how a deal is reached and what that deal would entail remains a mystery. president trump and members of his administration have spent the bulk of the past week trying to get president zelensky to sign on. >> to not. >> a peace deal with. >> russia. >> but a deal trading ukraine's natural resources in exchange for continued american security guarantees, a deal which some are. comparing to a shakedown of an ally. additionally, the us is still refusing to sign on to a.

fairly standard us resolution drafted by ukraine, marking the third anniversary of the war and condemning russia. the us wants kyiv to drop that resolution and replace it with a toned down version, one. that is less critical of russia. but all this, while chaotic and alarming, is also clarifying in terms of where. the trump administration stands. it stands, it seems. with russia the aggressor, and it wants to appease russia by having ukraine surrender the fight and surrender its land. we've been here before. we've tried this strategy. in 1938, a group of. >> world leaders. >> met with adolf hitler in munich and struck a deal allowing him to annex part of czechoslovakia. in exchange, hitler promised he would stop the fighting. >> and the aggression. >> a year later. hitler invaded poland. three years ago this week, president zelensky appeared at the annual munich security conference to make an urgent plea to the international community to help stop vladimir putin from invading his country. during his speech, he recalled that moment from our collective

history. he asked the crowd of world leaders, quote, has the world forgotten its mistakes of the 20th century? what do attempts at appeasement lead to? zelensky invoked the. >> old. >> french slogan why die for danzig? that refers to the struggle for control of the free city of danzig, a city state that was under the protection of the league of nations back in 1939, which hitler wanted to incorporate. >> into nazi germany. >> the slogan. why die for danzig was popularized by those who wanted to appease hitler in a bid to avoid war. but as history has so clearly demonstrated, there would be no appeasing hitler. and in september of 1939, the first shots of world war. two were fired along danzig's harbor. appeasement doesn't stop tyrants like hitler, like putin. we built our alliances in the international order based on the lessons that we learned from world war two, taking on. >> deterring and confronting.

>> aggressors in the defense. of democracy. >> is what we have done. >> with varying success for the past eight decades. but if america continues to cozy. >> up to russia. >> and putin. >> then that can all unravel. from ukraine to taiwan and beyond. >> joining me now is the pulitzer prize winning historian anne applebaum. she's a staff writer for the atlantic. >> she's the author. >> of numerous books, including. >> autocracy. >> inc, dictators who want to run the world. >> and good morning to you. >> thank you for being with us. you wrote on substack. earlier in. >> the week, quote. >> i cannot emphasize enough the dramatic nature of this change. america has. switched sides. >> not only in ukraine, but also more broadly in the war of ideas. >> end quote. >> talk to me about. >> what you mean by that. and your takeaway from the last couple of weeks of, of this discussion. >> around ukraine. >> so let. >> me actually start with your appeasement. >> analogy. >> because in a way, we're talking about a moment. >> that's not really 1938. >> we're talking about. >> 1943 or 44. try to.

>> imagine that in. >> the middle of a war that whose outcome was still undetermined. >> in. >> the middle of world war two. the united states had suddenly said. >> we've changed. >> our minds. >> we're supporting hitler. we don't, we don't. we don't see the point of this war. it's causing too much destruction. there's nothing to fight for. and they turned around and walked off the field. that is essentially what donald trump is proposing. >> he's he's not he's. >> he's accepting. >> putin's rationale. >> for. >> the war. he's accepting the. >> idea that the war would end in such a way. >> that ukraine. >> would have. >> no security guarantees. >> and no certainty. >> the documents. >> that they've offered president zelensky. >> to sign. >> in kyiv. >> as far as. >> i know. >> the versions that we've seen so. >> far don't. >> offer security guarantees. >> they don't. >> say that the war will end. >> and there will. be some kind. >> of us or. >> european or. >> really any. >> certainty that the war wouldn't. >> begin again six. >> months later. >> or or two. years later, after. >> the russians have have

rearmed. it's also important. >> to say. >> to recognize. >> what the. >> ukrainians have achieved in the last. >> three years. >> we all thought ukraine would collapse in the first few days of the war. that was the assumption made by the. >> us, by the russians. >> by everybody. >> instead, what we have now. >> is. >> ukraine wielding a. >> million man army. >> last year they made. >> a million and a half drones. >> they make almost. >> all their own drones now. >> they'll make 3. >> or 4 times that. >> many this year. >> they have bespoke software. >> they're running. >> a different kind of. >> war than any of us have ever fought before. >> and they're. doing it with. incredible skill. that's why they haven't been crushed. >> by this large neighbor. >> and yet. at this moment when the. >> russian economy. >> is in bad shape, they have high inflation. >> they're unable to beat the ukrainians. this is the moment. >> when we would. >> walk off the field. the message that that sends to. >> our allies and our adversaries. >> around the world is. >> a truly extraordinary one. >> and volodymyr zelensky, who is trying not to actually get into a spitting match with the

united states on this. >> right now. >> has said. >> his most critical. >> thing he said about donald trump is that he's he's sort of. >> living in a world of disinformation. >> that's a very polite way to say this, to suggest that. ukraine started this war. >> i don't even understand. >> how that lands. >> with with world leaders. you've been in munich, you talk to people around the world. it doesn't make any. >> sense to use that argument. it is an. argument that. >> vladimir putin. >> made, >> right, that the encroachment of nato started. >> this war, that ukraine should have been. >> part of russia in. >> the first place. >> that there. >> are russian speakers in the eastern part of ukraine who need protection, very much like hitler, used as an excuse to expand. >> in europe. but fundamentally. >> it's simply wrong. >> ukraine had. no role. >> in starting this war. >> no, it's also really important to understand what putin's goals are in this war. >> number one, he has an imperial. >> colonial vision. >> of europe. >> he thinks that he deserves to dominate his neighbors. >> he wants. >> to end ukrainian. sovereignty and incorporate ukraine into russia in some version. perhaps with a pro-russian president.

>> perhaps. >> you know, perhaps. >> making ukraine. >> a province. >> of russia. >> and of course, that would entail crushing and destroying ukrainian. >> society. >> as he has done. >> in all of. >> the occupied. territories of ukraine. >> so the mass arrests, mass executions. kidnaping of children, destruction of culture and. >> so on. >> secondly, his purpose in this war. >> is to show. >> nato and the. >> united states and europe. >> and the. >> whole world. >> that he. doesn't care. about international law or rules. he doesn't. >> care about the. >> geneva conventions. >> he doesn't. >> care about. >> you know, an idea of europe. >> whole and free. >> that is, you know, where borders are not changed by force. >> where. >> as you. >> said in your introduction, the lessons. >> of the second world. >> war have been learned. >> and arguments are resolved by diplomacy. he wants to demonstrate that all that can be destroyed by one person. and in one way, he wants to show. that the postwar world that america led and created after. >> 1945 is gone. >> that's his that that was his purpose. and the third.

>> purpose. >> just as important was he wanted to punish. >> ukraine for. >> its democratic revolution in 2014 for the thousands. hundreds of thousands of. young ukrainians. >> who waved. >> anti-corruption signs. who who. called for the end of an. >> autocratic presidency. >> who demanded, who wanted to be part of europe, wanted to be integrated. >> into the. >> rest. >> of the continent. he can't forgive them for. >> that, because that language. that language. >> of transparency. >> accountability, the rule of law. >> and democracy and freedom. that language is what's most dangerous to him. so his crushing of ukraine is. very central to his own project of. >> staying in power and remaining a dictator. >> so it may be abstract. >> to americans who don't remember world war. >> two about why. >> our our involvement in alliances like. nato matter. it is very different for europeans, particularly on the eastern border. >> of europe, those nato. >> countries. >> europe. >> for some of these countries. >> they are fearful. it is existential. if you're if you're polish, you're always fearful that somebody is going.

>> to invade you from. some side or the other. but if. >> you're latvia or lithuania. >> or some of these countries. you are worried. >> so how does europe have to think about this right now about configuring itself as a or reconfiguring itself as a bloc. >> and preparing for. >> a future without america as one of its most trusted allies and defenders? >> so, of course, most europeans are still hoping they won't have to do that. >> they're they're. >> hoping that trump will be brought around. there are other people in the administration who understand the significance. >> of. >> what would happen, and the incredible damage this would do to the united states, both in terms of american security and american prosperity, what the breakup of the transatlantic alliance. >> would mean. >> nevertheless, yes, of course there are conversations. i mean. >> look. >> europe is numerically larger than the united states. its economy is bigger, actually. the amount of. money and equipment it's donated to ukraine is larger. >> than. >> what the us has done so far. what europe lacks. >> is a. >> you know, is a is a. is a you know, there. >> was the old joke about, you

know. >> who do you call if you want to speak to europe. it doesn't. >> have a. >> person or an institution. >> that. >> could run a. military conflict. the european union was not set up to do that. nato was. built around the idea that the united states. would always be the leader, and the united. >> states always. >> wanted to be the leader. >> that was a. >> concession the europeans made. so the europeans need to need to. >> create a governing. mechanism that would. >> allow them to. >> help ukraine. >> and also to defend themselves. because one of the first. >> things that would happen if there were to be a. >> conclusion to the war that was very unfavorable to ukraine. or that that looked like a defeat of ukraine. one of the first. >> things that would happen is other states and i should say. >> not just on russia's borders, but inside europe. >> you know, germany. >> france. >> uk would all immediately have to think of how. >> how to organize their own self-defense, how to how to defend themselves jointly. i mean, it's possible it can be done. >> people are talking about it. >> but you know, but nobody ever. >> expected that they would have

to. create such a new institution. >> or such a new kind of leadership in an emergency situation. >> well, watch how it gets done. and thanks very much for your great reporting on this. anne applebaum. >> is a staff writer for. >> the atlantic. >> and a. >> pulitzer prize winning historian. >> all right. >> coming up, new escalations today in the middle east, why israel is delaying the release of 600 palestinian. >> prisoners as part of. yesterday's hostage prisoner exchange. >> and what it all means for the future of this very fragile ceasefire deal. we'll go right to tel aviv after this short to tel aviv after this short br(vo) explore the world the viking way from the quiet comfort of elegant small ships with no children and no casinos. we actually have reinvented ocean voyages, designing all-inclusive experiences for the thinking person. viking - voted world's best by both travel + leisure and condé nast traveler. learn more at viking.com. no matter what kind of teeth you gotta brush,

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hey! no, i'm good to talk! xfinity internet customers, cut your mobile bill in half for your first year with xfinity mobile. plus, ask how to get the new samsung galaxy s25+ on us. controlling your body odor better everywhere. >> fragile ceasefire between israel and hamas is. >> again teetering on collapse. this morning, israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu is delaying. >> the release. >> of more. >> than 600. >> palestinian prisoners and detainees in response. >> to the hostage release ceremonies choreographed by hamas, which. >> he calls humiliating. >> this coming thursday is the last scheduled handover. >> due to take place in the.

>> first phase of the ceasefire deal, which is set to end. >> on march 1st. >> all of that is now at risk, as hamas officials say. this delay is, quote, a deliberate. >> attempt to disrupt the agreement. >> and represents. >> a clear violation of. >> its terms. >> end quote. joining me now from tel. >> aviv is nbc news international. >> correspondent matt bradley. matt. >> good afternoon to you in tel aviv. >> what are you hearing. >> about the delay of the prisoner release and how this matter. is supposed to be resolved before thursday? >> yeah. >> ali. >> it's. >> exactly like you said. you know, this is not been a. >> very easy piece for the past couple of. >> weeks. and it. >> looks as though this is. going to continue to be rocky. >> steve witkoff. >> which is who is donald trump's middle east envoy, said that he's going. >> to. >> be. >> coming here to try to negotiate a return to the peace with the palestinians and or excuse me, with the israelis. he's coming here later this week. on wednesday, he. >> announced today on cnn. >> now, as you mentioned, you know, this is a very. >> difficult moment. >> for this peace. >> this is not. >> the. >> first time. >> that this very. tenuous peace has.

>> been called. >> into question. there's been threats by hamas to back away. >> and that went right down. >> to the. >> brink just in the. >> past week or two. but this is really. >> more threatening. >> than just breaking. >> this first phase of the deal is the fact that the second phase of the deal, which, as you mentioned, is supposed. >> to. happen in the. >> coming weeks, hasn't. >> even begun. >> to be negotiated with. >> that was a big issue. benjamin netanyahu has not sent. >> a delegation. >> to try to negotiate this peace. >> hamas has has said that. >> they haven't received anything regarding. moving on to the next phase of the negotiations. and that's one of the things. >> that the. >> trump that trump's middle east. >> envoy, steve. >> witkoff. >> is going to be trying. >> to do. but there's a lot of political resistance here. >> to moving. >> on to the next. phase of the deal, which could see. >> the israeli military actually. >> withdraw from the gaza strip and see a permanent end to the fighting. >> so this. >> is a very big. >> question now. >> whether or not this peace, which has now been faltering so many times over. >> the past several weeks. >> will actually. >> beget a more. permanent peace. >> in the.

>> gaza strip. that's a critical question, not just for israelis, but for. >> so. >> many palestinians who have been suffering. >> under this long war. >> matt, thank you as always. matt bradley for us live in tel aviv. all right. coming up on velshi, what did you. >> get done. >> last week, specifically at work? name five things. >> that's what. >> elon musk is asking thousands. >> of federal. >> employees to do. it's actually less of an. >> ask and more of a. >> threat, because failure to respond. will cost. them their jobs. and president trump. >> wants musk. >> to be more aggressive, not less. we'll talk about that less. we'll talk about that next. with fatigue and light-headedness, i knew something was wrong. then i saw my doctor and found out i have afib, and that means there's about a 5 times greater risk of stroke. symptoms like irregular heartbeat, heart racing, chest pain, shortness of breath, fatigue, or light-headedness, can come and go. but if you have afib, the risk of stroke is always there. if you have one or more symptoms, get checked out. making that appointment can help you get ahead of stroke risk. this is no time to wait.

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voter. which is. why this. latest reporting from the wall street. >> journal is. >> something to pay close attention to. according to the exclusive report by the wall. >> street journal. suzanne vranica, musk's. >> platform is reportedly. >> pressuring at least one. >> major ad agency to get its clients to increase spending on x. >> under the. implied threat of government. >> interference if they don't comply. that's according to several knowledgeable sources from the agency who spoke to the wall street journal. >> after musk took. over x, formerly. >> twitter. >> major. >> advertisers fled the platform. >> they were concerned. >> about their ads potentially appearing next to. >> far right. >> content. >> and that some of it could be construed. >> as bigotry or hate speech. >> and when they weren't, we're not. >> wrong about that. hate speech surged by a whopping 50%. >> on the. platform in the months. following musk's purchase, according. >> to a recent study. >> by the. >> university of california, berkeley. >> now. >> i want you to picture this scenario a big tech ceo overseeing a platform rife. >> with controversial. >> far right hate speech calls up a major ad agency and suggests that they spend.

>> more money on. >> his platform, warning that if they don't, he's got connections. >> in government. >> who could make things very, very difficult for them. sounds like something straight out of a dystopian thriller, but the wall street. >> journal reports. that this. >> may have actually taken place. with musk's ex. here's the full story. two advertising giants, interpublic group. >> known as interpublic. >> and omnicom. >> are currently in. talks for. >> a proposed. >> merger, which would. require regulatory approval from. >> the federal trade commission. >> now feel. >> what you will about whether these two massive companies should. >> merge, but. >> that's what they're trying. >> to do. >> interpublic was reportedly warned by the ceo of x, linda yaccarino. to direct more advertising dollars from their. clients to the platform, according to the journal. yaccarino hinted that the proposed. >> interpublic omnicom merger. >> could face regulatory. hurdles if they don't play ball now. in addition. interpublic reportedly received a call from x's lawyer in december, according to several. >> people with. knowledge of. >> the conversation who spoke with the wall. >> street journal, quote.

>> the message. >> was. >> clear get your clients to spend. >> more on elon. >> musk's social. >> media. >> platform or else, end quote. sources tell the journal. that interpublic executives interpreted the communications as a. >> reminder that their. >> $13 billion merger could be torpedoed. >> by the trump administration, given musk's. >> powerful ties within the. >> federal government. >> on the record. interpublic told the wall street. >> journal, quote, we do not. >> make spending commitments on. >> behalf of clients to any partner or platform, and. >> decision making. >> authority always rests with the client, end. quote meaning the actual company advertising, as opposed to the advertising agency. >> yaccarino and representatives. >> from x. >> did not respond to the wall street journal wall street journal's request. >> for comments. >> now, this veiled warning. >> if. >> it's true. >> has serious implications. >> for how our democracy. >> functions and what it means for. >> anyone who crosses. >> disappoints, or doesn't do enough business with the. >> president or his billionaire friends and supporters. >> peter kafka. >> a veteran media and technology. >> reporter, lays out exactly

what's. >> at stake. quote i want to underline. >> what could be happening here, because it's extraordinary. >> a big. >> media platform whose owner is deeply enmeshed. >> with the trump. >> administration is reportedly telling companies. to give it business or risk government reprisal. and if that's true, that goes beyond. >> the performative. >> ring kissing we've seen from big. >> tech and other business leaders in the past few months. >> now we're looking at. >> a world where. >> the president's allies could get special treatment. >> too. >> and people or companies who don't. bow to those allies could face retribution. on government decisions that should be made. on their legal merits. >> end quote. for more on this, i'm joined by the aforementioned peter. >> kafka. >> chief correspondent. >> at business. >> insider, who covers media and technology. peter. >> good. >> to see you. >> look, there's. another discussion. >> and a different. >> discussion to be had. >> about the merits. >> of the. >> interpublic and omnicom merger and. whether the federal trade commission should be. considering that. >> that's not the issue here. the issue here is that it seems that someone. told interpublic,

if you don't generate. >> more revenue. >> for x. >> this merger, not on its merits, this merger. >> may be in trouble. yeah. this is the classic nice advertising shop you have here. >> shame if. >> anything bad would happen to it. >> allegedly. yeah. >> you know, and again, it's. >> it's quite striking that interpublic is not denying their version of the version of the story the journal reported. x, which certainly could complain about it if they wanted to, is not denying it. >> i went. >> and asked them all the same thing as well. >> so it's possible. >> this is not a true story. but it certainly has the contours of a realistic and. >> worrisome story. there's a sort of an overlapping. >> story that's going on elsewhere in the. >> last few weeks. for years. >> now, donald trump and his. >> allies have. >> complained that media. >> and tech. >> platforms are biased against conservatism. talk to me about. >> that criticism. >> and the role. >> that this discussion has to play in that, because some of it is advertisers who had said after. elon musk's takeover of x and its shift.

>> to the right that they didn't want to. >> be involved in that. right. you know, you've had conservatives complaining. for years. >> that that technology companies and the government generally democratic government are too closely enmeshed. they're constantly looking for examples of this. >> had a hard. >> time finding realistic ones. >> but somehow sort. >> of gotten the world to. >> sort of. >> accept that this is a real problem. >> you are not seeing or hearing a peep from them. >> complaining that that. >> elon musk's. >> elon musk's social. >> media company. >> is using. >> the power of the united states government to. achieve commercial ends. it's quite staggering. >> again. >> if true, some prominent trump allies like congressman jim jordan and brendan carr, who the president has just tapped as the chair of the fcc, they. >> are frequent purveyors of the. argument that media and tech companies are. >> biased against conservatives. you know, to this week that they have been silent on this particular. >> reporting on. >> this particular topic. >> you quote. >> there's been nothing out of jim jordan. >> the republican congressman. >> who spent years trying to

root out supposed bias in big tech. nothing from brendan. >> carr, trump's choice to run the federal. >> communications commission, who has said he wants to stamp out bias at. >> big media companies. >> nothing from vice president j.d. vance. who just lectured european leaders over the way they regulate social. media while complaining that joe biden's administration threatened and bullied. >> social media companies. >> right. just. >> just i mean, again, this is a sort of. >> basic argument, but but for argument's sake, flip this around. imagine mark zuckerberg. >> in 2016, or anyone at google during the obama administration had done anything remotely similar, had been accused of anything remotely similar. you'd be hearing. >> nonstop coverage about. this and nonstop complaining. >> about. >> this from republicans in congress, from. >> conservative news outlets. >> not a peep. and that's very worrisome. what do you make of. >> the part about. >> this thing that is the relationship. >> between trump and musk? >> this is not just ex saying because x has. >> sued with the federal trade commission and.

>> the. >> fcc to prevent other. >> things from happening. >> any, any american. >> can withstanding can. >> do that. >> this is a little bit different. >> this isn't. >> x saying to the ftc or the fcc this is anti-competitive behavior. this if true, again. >> as alleged, this is something different. >> this is a i got. >> friends in high places. >> shame if something. >> should happen to your your advertising shop and its proposed merger. >> you said it better than i can. >> i mean, you know, you could always argue that the that big companies always have influence in government. >> we sort of accept. >> that and sort of american. versions of democracy. this is well beyond the pale. and anyone sort of who's seen this story, the. >> story didn't get that. >> much coverage. >> one of the reasons. >> i wanted to pick it up. anyone in the media world who knows. exactly what the story means, they're really taken. aback by it. and i think. >> most of the country. >> should. >> be paying more attention to it. thank you, and i'm glad we got you here to help us pay attention to it. peter kafka is the chief correspondent. for business insider. all right. coming up on the night that changed everything, a look back on the first moments when the

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continuous compression and faster recovery of sore muscles and joints. copper fit ice get the. >> full line. >> of copper fit ice compression at these fine stores. >> msnbc presents a new podcast hosted by jen psaki. each week, she talks. >> to some of the biggest. >> names in democratic politics. >> with the. biggest ideas for. >> how democrats can win again. the blueprint with jen psaki. listen now. the first 100 days. it's a critical time for our country. and rachel maddow is on five nights a week. >> now is the time. so we're going to do it. settle in. >> the rachel maddow show weeknights. >> at. >> nine on msnbc. >> welcome back to velshi. i'm here. >> with two. >> of the smartest guys in the world of politics, steve bannon, msnbc political. >> contributor and. >> author of ministry. >> of truth, democracy, reality and the republicans war on the recent. past and a longtime political journalist, michael scheuer. good morning guys.

>> two things. >> two interesting things. one. >> steve bannon. >> elon musk. sends a letter. >> out, an. >> email to federal employees yesterday. >> please reply to this email with approximately five bullets of. >> what you accomplished. >> last week and cc your manager. please do not send any classified information, links or attachments. deadline for this is monday at 11:59. >> p.m. est. >> that's tomorrow night. >> then we're weird, though, that is. >> there's a fbi kash patel. >> brand new head. >> of the fbi. kash patel. sent an email saying, don't pause any responses that you got asking federal employees. >> what they. >> accomplished. last week, he said that the department will respond on behalf of its employees. >> weirder and weirder all at. >> the same time. >> steve. >> yeah. >> this is like. >> an. >> instance in which. >> the. >> right. >> hand doesn't know. >> what the even further. >> to the right hand is doing. >> it's entirely shambolic. >> administration continues to. >> have. >> incidents like these. this

is. >> a unique. >> one, though i think in large. >> part because we just saw a white house. legal filing a few days ago. >> in which. >> the white house said. >> that elon musk has. >> no legal authority. he has no governmental authority. he is strictly an advisor to the president and nothing more. >> and yet a few. >> days later, here we have elon musk contacting millions of federal employees, demanding. >> that. >> they somehow account for their time. >> at a certain point, the white house will have. >> to decide. >> which. >> of these arguments. >> they're going to settle on. >> because they're untenable. >> and contradictory. >> at this point in the process. >> and michael shore. >> i think everybody can agree. everybody has agreed. >> this. >> probably waste, fraud and abuse in the federal government is. >> why we had these inspector generals. >> it's why bush and gore started. >> an investigation. >> into how the government spends money, and probably much, much more can be done. >> but this concept of five things you did last. >> week may. >> really work. >> in elon musk's world as an engineer, where you're. developing code for rocket ships or satellites. it's not necessarily clear. >> across the world. >> of government that that's the right. >> email to be sending.

>> no it is. >> it has. >> worked for him as well. i mean, these are things that he has done in some of his other endeavors. this type. of evaluate. >> yourself. >> let us know what you're doing. >> but he. >> has also gone into places. >> like twitter, which. >> he. now has as x, and he has cut. >> his workforce. >> by doing things like this. i think. what you peed on with. >> kash patel. >> is really interesting, because now as. >> you. have more and more of these cabinet officials of these. >> upper administration. >> officials getting confirmed. >> you're seeing. >> that they're. >> saying to, to, to the. >> to elon musk and to the doge department, hey, hey. >> i'm in charge here. and that. >> seems to be what kash patel is doing. especially in. light of what. >> trump said about. >> elon musk last week. >> so i. >> think it's. >> going to be very interesting to see how some of these other. >> departments deal with this kind of management, and the fact that kash patel is saying, hey, hey, hold off, don't reply. >> to this. >> let us do it. >> says. >> a lot about where this is going. >> mike, i want to ask you one more thing. yesterday, steve bannon, there's. this cpac thing

going on. >> steve bannon was there. >> and somewhere. >> in the. >> middle. >> of his comments, he raised. his right arm out to the side. and what some people. describe as a roman salute. others. >> others associate. >> it with nazi germany. >> didn't offer any explanation. >> for why he. >> did it. and i guess this is this becomes. >> tricky for us. like, how do we how do you deal with that when. >> people suddenly. >> start shooting their arm out without any particular reason? does that mean anything to you? is that a is that a signal or a wink and a nod to, to white supremacist groups? >> what is it? it's certainly a wink and a nod. i mean, this is how you deal with it. you call it what it is. it is not a roman salute. this is now, as we know, since the second world war. that is what adolf hitler did. and that's. >> what his. adherents did. >> to show their allegiance to him. so there's no sugarcoating this. elon musk did something similar earlier. and when you when you look at those together, you think, my god, this is what is being facilitated here. so i think. >> you. >> deal with it the way you're

dealing with it, which is to talk about it and to point it out and to know who. >> the places like cpac. the type. >> of people that they are facilitating when they have someone on stage who. >> is a. >> well listened to, well attended spokesperson, a spokesperson. for that message. >> and that's how he. >> says goodbye with his arm in the air like that. >> now you know how. >> to put. >> your arm in the air. you know how to say, let's go forward. >> you also know how. >> to say you know goodbye. without putting your arm the way that that bannon did. steve bannon cpac used to actually be a. logical place. for conservatives. >> to gather and talk about their ideas. >> and it is slowly drifted. >> further and further to the right, to the extent that these sort of extremist things become mainstream. it's a place you go to. >> say shocking things. >> that will. >> shock mainstream conservatives. i kind. >> of worry. >> about that because, as we. >> discussed one day, perhaps returning to a normal republican party in a normal conservative movement, the places that conservatives. >> gather these days. >> tend to look more. >> like that. >> than your local district meeting.

>> yeah, you're. >> right to be concerned. i share those concerns. i think as the republican party. >> has become more radicalized. >> we're seeing that. >> seeing that same. >> effect. >> that ■same dynamic. start to play out in all kinds of areas. throughout conservative movement, including cpac. you know, we used to think of see some of these fringe figures. >> as obscure and. >> ridiculous, and. >> yet. >> now they're being elevated. >> to. >> the point. >> where they're. >> now prominent voices in conservative media on the right, with. >> great. >> influence on the white house and the west wing. this is an extremely unsettling development, and. >> it suggests that. >> there is an authoritarian movement. >> that's. kind of taking. >> over republican politics. >> in too many spheres. >> mike, let's talk about michael. let's talk about authoritarianism versus oligarchy. perhaps different things. they're separate things. >> one, a lot of experts on authoritarianism say that when. >> it creeps in. >> it doesn't it doesn't go right from a democracy to a dictatorship. just democratic things start to weaken a little bit. i was just talking to peter kafka. >> of business insider about. >> this weird reporting in. the wall street journal that maybe somebody. >> at x.

>> told somebody at. >> an advertising firm that if you. >> people don't increase your spending, we're going to, you. >> know. >> we're going to. your merger deal. might not go through. >> on wednesday, i spoke with bernie sanders. >> he's launching a. >> fighting oligarchy. tour across america. i'm trying to. >> make sure we're able to put meat. >> on. >> these bones when talking to americans. >> because awlaki. >> could become one of those words that just gets removed and doesn't. >> feel like what's actually. >> happening to. >> you. >> in america. >> yeah. you remember. >> it wasn't that. >> long ago that we were seizing the boats and the and the apartments and the homes of oligarchs in this country, and now it seems like we're lifting those oligarchs up, and we're making them bigger. >> than than they. >> already are. i was listening to senator sanders yesterday. >> i don't think he was. >> in omaha yesterday as. >> part of. >> that tour that you just mentioned. and what bernie sanders is doing, obviously, he's somebody who gets out on the stump. >> a. >> lot similarly. >> to donald trump. >> but he. >> is trying to. >> look at the people. >> that are going to be hurt. >> by what these oligarchs. >> are doing to the us

government right now. strategically, you know, a lot of. people are complaining that the democratic party. >> doesn't have a message. >> right now. they don't have a plan to attack. what's going on. the finding a villain and finding that villain in an oligarch is something that bernie sanders has done for a long time. when he talks about income inequality and 13 billionaires in the trump administration, things like that. but if he can appeal now. >> to an. >> audience that is losing their jobs because they're government workers losing interest in this administration because they're veterans, and they're seeing how marginalized veterans have become and trying to win back some of those. you know, union workers. >> who were lost. >> in the 2024 election. that's where seeing an oligarch and having a villain can be very helpful politically. and senator sanders is showing that, and he's focusing. >> on sort of purple districts where people voted perhaps for biden last time around and then voted for trump this time around, guys. stick around. we're going to continue this. conversation after a quick break. >> she's coming. >> she's coming. >> right back. ♪ ("born to be wild" by steppenwolf) ♪

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>> we're back with steve bannon, producer of the rachel maddow. >> show and msnbc. >> political contributor, and michael schur, longtime political journalist. steve, ukraine, we're going to be talking to jon meacham about. >> it in a. >> few minutes. i'm going to be talking to ben rhodes about it. but let's just talk about the domestic political implications of donald trump's weird flip. flop on it's flip flop. it's never he's. >> never really been on the. >> right side of ukraine. >> but when. >> donald trump. >> first got impeached, the funding that he was withholding. >> from ukraine was not just congressionally. >> approved. >> not just congressionally approved on a bipartisan basis, but almost unanimous. there have. >> got to be pieces. >> of. the republican party. even elected. republicans in congress. >> who think what we. >> are doing vis. >> a vis. >> ukraine is wrong. >> and dangerous. >> yeah. and there are i mean, i think just in the last several days, we saw a variety of. >> congressional republicans. >> step up to say. >> that the. >> donald trump's position is simply wrong. >> when it comes to. >> defending vladimir putin.

>> when it comes to. >> cracking down on ukraine or our ostensible allies in this conflict. i think that we're seeing some republicans saying. >> no, this is going too far. this is a bridge too far. this is something that we have to correct. >> what we have not seen, however, is that republicans are afraid to do anything about that position. i mean, we. saw roger wicker, for example, in the senate armed services committee, completely rejecting. donald trump's line. >> as. >> it relates to the kremlin. >> but at the. >> same. >> time, we haven't seen any hearings, we haven't seen. >> any legislation, we. >> haven't seen any subpoenas. and so the. >> question at this point. >> now is. is it going to be enough for republicans to step. >> up and say that. >> trump is. >> wrong, or are they actually. going to take the step and do. >> something about it? i'm not optimistic on that front, but we will see. michael. >> one of the things that worried some. republicans and. >> people at large is and zelensky said this, that donald trump is parroting vladimir putin's perspectives on, on ukraine and the war. >> well. >> donald trump nominated a director of national intelligence who parrots vladimir putin's. >> views on. >> this thing. this is institutionalized in the u.s. government. so it's not like donald trump is a weird outlier here.

>> tulsi gabbard has. >> these views. >> as well, that. nato expansion of nato. >> is what caused the war in ukraine, not russia actually going into. >> a. >> sovereign country. yeah. and what. >> steve. >> said is exactly right. i mean, you take somebody. >> like. roger wicker. >> who can give you the rhetoric that you want to hear, and then when it comes time to vote, it comes time to confirm it. >> you look. >> at tulsi. >> gabbard, she was confirmed by the. >> committee and obviously by the senate. >> so you're. >> seeing a lot of lip. >> service from republicans. >> and it happened. >> you know, during. >> the confirmation hearings. >> there's a lot. >> of. forgiveness given. >> generally speaking. >> to a president's nominee. so that's not surprising. what's surprising. >> and what. continues to surprise is that. something like russia, i mean, there's. >> been 180 degree turn if. >> we. >> were having this. >> conversation in 1994. >> and you. >> were. hearing that. >> republicans were coddling. >> an autocratic leader. of russia. >> you would. >> be aghast. >> and republicans would never do that. >> and so now they. >> get this lip service. >> and they don't do anything about it. we are still.

>> what is it, a. month into. >> this administration? >> congress has. >> work has not begun. necessarily on these sorts of things. that said. >> the indications even in private. >> when i was texting with members of congress. this week in private. >> they're saying things and i would. >> see those same members of congress go on. television later in the day and. >> just. >> sort of like. >> tiptoe around it. >> and so it's concerning, but. i think. >> this is where there may be some of those opportunities. >> that democrats are waiting for. >> to call these. >> people out. onto the carpet for. >> this steve bannon. >> some of these things that the trump administration. >> is doing have. >> been challenged in the courts because they're thought to. >> be illegal, but. >> many of them are not. the firing of generals on friday night and the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, not illegal. all the stuff he's talking about with ukraine, unless he actually doesn't give the money that's congressionally approved, not illegal, but some say dangerous and damaging. what are democrats supposed to do in the face. >> of all of this? >> well, that's a good question. i think the democratic base is asking the same question right now. i mean, obviously, we're in a situation in which

congressional republicans have the majority in both the house and the senate. and with that in mind, democratic opportunities for governing effectively don't exist. at the same time, we can see democrats step up in the senate in terms of rejecting nominees left and right as much as possible in committee. and on the floor. >> we could see. >> we could see house democrats do as best as much as they can in terms of launching investigations. >> we've seen. >> some of. >> that start. >> to begin. but at the same time, i think there's also going to be an element of protest and an element. of whether or not they're prepared to get arrested when they go to government buildings, for example, and try and get entry and are denied. are we going to see members of congress do what john lewis did, which is get hauled away in handcuffs? >> i think those. >> are the kind of steps we want. >> to see from. >> the members of the democratic base, want to see. >> and i think. >> in. >> the coming weeks. >> and. >> months, we might we might very. >> well. >> see some of those developments unfold. >> michael, what do you think? what's your what's your take. >> on the most effective route for democrats right now, particularly elected democrats? well, i think you look. >> at why. >> the elected. >> democrats, there. >> are fewer of them, fewer of them than. >> elected republicans. and you go back to message, the

democrats do not have. >> the message. >> and they don't have the messengers. and again, you had bernie sanders in in omaha yesterday. and he's he has. >> been a sort of. >> constant messenger. >> on. >> these issues. >> for quite a while. the fact that. >> these issues. >> the ones that senator sanders has been talking about for such a long time, are now appealing to a much more mainstream democratic, you know, voter, a mainstream democratic district that becomes something that they can use, but they need the messengers. and again, like. steve was saying, they have to be out front on this. they can't. >> just sort of wait this out and say, oh. >> we're in the minority. >> there's nothing we can do. >> nobody wants. >> to hear that. right? if your team. >> is if your football. >> team is one and 14, well, in week 16, you don't want to hear them say that. oh, we've been losing. we can't wait. you want to see what they're going to do to win that second game. and i think. >> that's what people are. >> looking at from democrats right now. and they need different voices. i mean, other. >> voices have to. step up, especially in the. united states senate. >> i think democrats are are calling for. >> that now as well. >> so steve bennett, we've seen we saw we saw bernie. sanders

out on. >> his oligarchy tour. we've seen j.b. pritzker with some fiery words. >> last week. we've got jamie raskin out there. >> we got jasmine crockett. there's even talk about a daily briefing like the equivalent of. >> a daily presidential briefing. >> but from from democrats rotating democrats on a. >> daily basis. >> to, to keep in front and. center what the priority is. have you. >> given thought. >> to that? yeah. i think. >> that this. >> is very much in line with what mike was saying a moment ago. i think that there is a messaging issue that democrats realize that they've fallen short. i think that there is a realization throughout the party and its leadership that what they're doing with the status quo is simply not acceptable, that it's not working, it's not effective. and so with that in mind, they're having to explore alternatives such as the ones that you just referenced. ellen, i think we're going to see more of that. i also mentioned, by the way, that, you know. >> there's a budget. >> shortfall coming up soon in terms of whether there's going to be a shutdown. and i. >> think. >> we see congressional democrats right now saying, if you want to see us offer votes on. >> a bill that. >> would prevent a shutdown, we're going to expect additional

elements in terms of defenses against white house excesses. and if you don't provide us with those defenses, then we're not necessarily going to go along even if there's a shutdown. and so i think these are hardball tactics, and i. >> think that the times. >> demand those kinds of tactics because we're dealing with. >> such an. >> unusual set of circumstances. >> and so. >> i'm i think that it's. not it's not it's too early to. >> say that democrats are just going. >> to sit back and watch. i think that right now these strategies are coming into focus. the strategies are coming into. into fruition. and so with that in mind, i still. >> think. >> that there's room. >> to see some hardball. tactics and. >> seeing some democrats throw some punches. >> guys, good to see. >> you both. thank you. this morning. >> steve bannon is a. producer for the rachel. >> maddow show. he's the author of the ministry of truth, democracy. reality and the republicans war. >> on the recent past. >> michael shore is a longtime >> michael shore is a longtime political journalist. a experience advanced technology in the buick envision. (♪♪) equipped with the largest-in-class ultrawide 30-inch diagonal display and google built-in compatibility, innovation is at your fingertips. buick. exceptional by design. with fatigue and light-headedness,

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>> good morning. >> it is sunday, february the 23rd. day 35. >> of donald trump's. second term. >> tomorrow marks three years since russia. launched its full scale invasion of ukraine. >> in that. >> time, more than a million people have been. >> killed or wounded. >> as a result of the war. >> millions of others have been. >> displaced internally or have fled. >> to other countries. >> where they have claimed refugee status. the ukrainian capital, kyiv, still stands and is under ukrainian. >> control. >> despite russian troops occupying land just eight miles from the city center in the early days of the war. just hours ago, kyiv was one of a number of cities that was hit by another russian attack.