it's a fallback option. it's a backup. johnson, we both know, has been very adamant that he. >> wants to. >> pass one bill, and he is going to try to do that at. >> any. >> length he can. and he's got president trump on his side, which could help with that momentum. senators are saying though, you know, this is a break in case of emergency. we have this. >> two track plan. >> yeah. plus we know how the house likes to gripe about the senate superiority complex. that's definitely a little bit in play here too. michael schnell thank you my friend. that was way too early for this monday morning. morning joe starts right now. >> should the u.s. have some kind of guarantee or return on the billions of taxpayer dollars that have flowed. >> into that conflict? >> well, shannon, i have. i mean, i have two problems with that concept. one, it just looks like an episode of the sopranos, right? give us your minerals or we're not going to help you fight a bloody butcher. i mean, is this really what we want? the greatest country in history to be known for? for, like, you know, some mafia thing? look,

we've always. >> stood with the good guys. >> we stood with churchill against hitler in world war one. we stood with the good guys. even when we've gotten it wrong. in vietnam, we were standing with the good guys against the viet cong in iraq. we were going after saddam hussein. now this president is standing with the bad guy. he's saying zelensky is the problem with zelensky, with very few resources. >> is. >> trying to stand up for democracy against a totalitarian butcher. >> all right. ranking member. of the house intel committee, democratic congressman jim himes of. >> connecticut. >> criticizing president. >> trump for. >> his comments. >> about ukraine. >> it comes. >> as we mark. >> the third anniversary of russia's invasion, starting. >> the largest. >> conflict in. >> europe since world war two. >> and i. >> will say that the lead editorial on the wall street journal opinion page talks about a brief history of russia's broken. promises and says, in effect, ukraine has absolutely no reason to trust. >> anything that vladimir putin

has to. say when it comes to the possibility. >> of a peace deal or a ceasefire, because they point. >> out time and time again. all the times. putin has. >> lied about ukraine. >> meanwhile, president. >> trump and his. >> administration refuse to say. >> what the. >> rest. >> of the world. >> knows that putin. >> is a dictator. and he is responsible for this war. we'll show. you the latest deflections from top members of trump's administration. plus, we'll go through a consequential election in. germany and whether. >> the. >> center was. >> able to hold. >> off gains from the country's far right faction. and back here. >> at. >> home, america's. >> top aid. >> agency could. essentially be shut down. >> by the end. >> of today amid more chaos within the federal government. caused by an ultimatum email from elon musk. >> and yet. >> one. >> of the most. >> fascinating stories. >> this. weekend that's. >> coming out. is that top agency heads. >> are now.

>> pushing back. >> in the trump administration, telling members. of their own cabinets. their own. >> agencies do. >> not respond to elon musk's directive. >> we'll explain. >> all of that. also ahead. >> we'll have the latest. >> on the. >> health of pope francis as he battles. >> pneumonia. >> among other things. good morning, and welcome to morning joe. it is monday, february 24th. a lot to get to this morning. along with us. >> we have. >> the co-host of our fourth hour, jonathan lemire. he's a contributing writer at the atlantic covering the white house. >> and national. >> politics, us special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay is with us, president. >> emeritus of the council on foreign. >> relations, richard haass. he's the author of the weekly. newsletter home and away, available on substack. and us national editor at the financial. >> times. >> ed luce, we want to begin with the overnight breaking news. a dozen leaders from the european. >> union and. canada are.

>> in kyiv. >> this morning to mark the third anniversary of russia's. >> invasion of ukraine. >> european union president ursula von. >> der leyen and canadian prime. >> minister justin. trudeau are among the leaders to visit kyiv. writing in a social media post about this trip. >> von der. >> leyen says, quote, on the. third anniversary of russia's brutal invasion. europe is in kyiv. we are in kyiv today because ukraine is europe. in this fight for survival. it is not only the destiny of. ukraine that is at stake, it is europe's destiny. >> and katty kay, you. have europe. obviously all aligned. you have most democrats in the united states, in the senate and the house aligned, as well as a majority. >> of republicans. it seems that donald trump is taking. >> this lonely. >> stand. >> even against. >> the likes of the new york

post. >> and the wall. >> street journal editorial page, and claiming that putin is not the dictator. it's zelensky, and that somehow. >> it is zelensky that needs to. >> give up more. more money, more land, more everything. and as donald trump kowtows to vladimir putin. >> yeah. >> and if those republicans. >> were asked. >> in. >> a secret ballot, you know, where they would stand when it. >> came to ukraine, and who. was the dictator in this particular fight? this is a. >> moment for europe, a moment. >> for europe to step up. >> partly because. >> they have no choice. partly because j.d. >> vance made. >> it. perfectly clear that they couldn't rely on the. >> american security umbrella that they've relied on since the. >> second world war. >> and now europeans are. moving in european terms fast. we've seen. >> and we'll talk about. >> the elections in germany. but already the germans saying we have to. move faster to help shore up ukraine. europe can't afford in this moment to have a separate identities when it

comes. this is an existential issue for europe. >> they cannot afford. >> to be. >> with president macron. >> visiting donald trump in the white house. and then keir starmer, not part of the eu, of course, but still part of the european continent. they need to make sure. >> that they are not making separate visits to the white. >> house. and having separate messages put across, but having a unified message put across. and that's what this meeting in ukraine is about. this is also driven by donald trump, donald trump meeting with the russians in saudi arabia has forced europeans to. work more closely together. and this is the risk for donald trump. he pushes his allies away. and if he goes too far, he could push them away for moments, perhaps when america actually needs them. so what you're seeing in europe. >> at. >> the. moment is this reorganizing of the of the centers of power in the world that donald trump is instigating, but it could come back to bite him. >> well, there are. >> again, economically, there are three spheres. of power in the world.

>> and we say it all. >> the time here because money talks as they say. america has a $26. >> trillion gdp. >> europe has a $26 trillion gdp. >> the eu does. >> china has. >> about an $18. >> trillion gdp. >> you add great. >> britain and actually you have great britain and. europe having the largest gdp in the world. >> that is a sphere. >> of influence that when working together with the united states and with the. >> united states. >> sees that sphere of influence, those democratically elected western countries as our. >> allies, we can do anything. so, speaking. >> of europe. >> mika, all eyes. >> on elections yesterday. is there was a fear because elon musk, the. >> vice president of the. >> united states. >> donald trump. >> others tried to sort. >> of place their hands. >> on. >> the scales of the voters. >> there is a. >> big fear that. the far. right

party. >> was going to. >> do better. >> than the 20%. >> that they had been predicted. >> to do didn't turn out. >> that way. >> some analysts saying that even backfired. >> we're going to get more on. >> this visit to ukraine. we'll be speaking later in the show to ukraine's former foreign minister. but to joey's point, germany's. christian democrats, the nation's center. right party, has. >> won the federal election. >> the party's leader, friedrich. >> merz. >> is likely to become the nation's next chancellor, with his party securing. >> 208 seats and roughly 29%. >> of the vote. >> the campaign's. focus was dominated by long standing concerns. >> over germany's economy and immigration policy. the party for. >> current chancellor. >> olaf schulz is a left. >> leaning government. >> finished in third place. >> with just 120. >> seats and 16% of the vote. the nation's far. >> right. conservative party finished in second place, winning 152 seats and roughly 21% of the vote, nearly double

its margin from last. the last. federal election in 2021. afd members have regularly flirted with. >> nazi slogans, diminished the holocaust and have been associated. >> with plotting to. >> overthrow the government. >> let's go. >> to berlin right. >> now, and nbc news international correspondent rob sands is there. raf, give us a rundown. how did how did things turn out? >> well, joe. good morning. >> two big headlines. >> out of this consequential election. the first, as you said, germany is going to have a new government led by a moderate conservative. but the second is that the far right. >> made. >> historic gains unlike anything we have seen in this country since the second world war. so starting with that new government, as you discussed, it's going to be led by friedrich mertz. he is the head of the. christian democrats, the center right party. angela merkel's old party. he is a businessman by background. he is, in many ways a pretty. traditional european conservative. but he is coming.

>> to. >> power, as in what is a deeply not normal moment in us european relations. they have an. >> interesting tradition in. >> this country, guys. immediately after the exit polls come out, all the party leaders go into a single tv studio. they sit around one table and they have a kind of round table discussion. >> and mertz. >> was very, very blunt in that discussion. it's known as. >> the elephant round. >> he said that it is very. >> clear the. >> trump administration does not care about european security, and that as the next leader of germany, europe's largest. >> economy. >> a key member of nato, it is going to be his absolute top priority to strengthen europe so that it can forge. >> an independent. >> path from the united states. these are america's european allies saying they need to strike out on their own. he discussed the fact that elon musk and jd vance pretty openly supporting the far right in this election, and he said that the

election interference. from washington has been as shameful as the election interference from moscow. so pretty. stark words from the next leader of germany as we talked about the far right, the alternative for germany, the afd winning 20% of the vote. it is about in line with the exit polls. there had been some concerns they might do even better than that. but guys, that is still one german voter in five casting their ballots for the far right. this is a party whose most extreme members have talked about stripping citizenship from germans who have overseas heritage. one of their. most extreme leaders, a german court has ruled, can be legally described as a fascist based on his positions. so they were in a celebratory mood last night. it is not looking like they are going to have any role in government. mertz was very clear. he is going to uphold the so-called firewall, the

principle that the mainstream parties do not cooperate with the far right. that is despite the vice president calling for that firewall to be torn down. mertz is now heading into several weeks of coalition negotiations. analysts here say the most likely outcome is that he will go into government with the main center left party, the social democrats. that's likely to provide a pretty stable government for germany for the next couple of years. >> but those. >> same analysts are saying it could be storing up trouble for the next election in 2029, when you have the two mainstream parties in government together. it may be that voters who are dissatisfied feel that they have no choice but to turn once again to the extremes, guys. >> all right. nbc raf. >> sanchez, live from berlin. thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. i will say one thing that that has changed. you actually have the christian democrats who have taken a tougher line on immigration, something that hasn't happened. >> in the eu. for well. >> over a decade. it's important to remember everything is context. it's important to remember that angela merkel

allowed millions, well over a million immigrants into syria, many with absolutely no screening at all. it caused. >> serious political. >> turmoil in that country, and it. >> led. >> as we predicted, here for well over a decade. >> it led to the rise of a. >> far right party. >> i will say. >> though, yesterday. >> it does appear, though, that the. >> center did. >> hold the grand coalition still in place. >> the center. >> right and the center left will be going together. and i understand. afd makes. >> the. >> big headlines, but they were sitting at 20%, expecting to do far better after elon musk basically told them, never mind about the holocaust. forget about your past. don't be guilty about any of that. then jd vance came over talking about tearing down. >> a firewall. >> well, i will. >> say it. >> appears that german voters responded. >> to those messages. >> about his effectively. >> as american voters would respond to german politicians

going. >> to. >> peoria and telling them how to vote in their american elections. >> yeah. >> i think that's a pretty good way of. >> putting it. in fact. >> arguably, if you see the turnout, which was it was a high. >> a recent high in. >> germany, 85% of german voters voted yesterday. compare that. >> to the recent. high in. us presidential. >> elections of 66%. >> in 2020. >> then arguably, elon musk. really stimulated. >> everyone else. >> the anti afd vote to come. out and vote and limit it to that 1. >> in 5. >> ceiling that it's been. >> at for some time. >> look, it's. >> still, by german postwar. >> standards, a. >> pretty sobering. >> result to. >> see. >> not just the. >> far right get 1. >> in 5. >> but the far left. >> surging as well. so put together. extreme parties. >> are now. >> about 30%. >> of the german vote, and. >> they used to be nowhere.

>> but relative. to where. >> other democracies are going, including the united. >> states. >> nearly half of america voted for trump. this is a moderate. >> center, is. >> holding election. >> and i. think that. >> the change. >> in chancellors. >> from olaf. schultz to friedrich merz is. >> extremely good. >> news in terms of what katie. was just. >> saying. >> if we want. europe to move fast because he's very. >> clear, he said, we've got. no time for the usual. >> german weeks. >> and months. >> of. >> coalition negotiations. >> the world. >> will not wait on us. we've got to move quickly. >> and we've. >> got to. we've got to build up our defenses against russia. that's essentially. >> his message. >> well, and i will say, jonathan also, he is a conservative. he is. >> again, he's. taking this strong stance on immigration. >> not a radical. >> stance on immigration, but

the type of stance that the mushy. >> middle in. >> europe has refused to take over the. >> past decade and has allowed right. >> wing governments to rise in one country after another. talking about firewalls, his views on immigration appear to be a firewall against, again, lending power to the far right. he also, as a conservative. and a guy that's been involved in. >> business for. >> a very long time, is going to be in a position. >> to address a real problem. >> in germany. >> and that is. >> right now just an economy. >> that is. >> is. >> is really. >> stumbling and struggling along. germany needs. >> a. >> kick start, and there are many people who believe. >> this center. >> right. >> politician. >> the center right leader, if. >> chancellor. >> the center. >> right chancellor can do that. >> yeah. >> deeply sluggish economy for some time now. >> one final. >> note. >> about the musk and. vance role here. >> there was some polls a month or so back. >> that's just andy would. >> do better. >> than they did yesterday.

>> now, still again, a noteworthy result, to be sure, but it seems like musk and vance didn't really help. and in some ways may have even hurt some of the results. but richard haass, you still think we. >> were talking. >> as you sat down. >> here. >> that it is an alarming number. >> that that. >> far. >> right party received 1 in 5. so talk to us a little. >> bit more about. >> that. >> but also the sort of the rightward shift here we're seeing in germany throughout. >> europe and. >> how it's going to deal with the united states. well. >> two things to. >> me, jonathan. >> were really interesting. >> just quickly put aside merits. >> in that. >> so-called elephant talk, you know, after the election, to be so critical of the united states, what were essentially seeing after 80 years, you could almost hear and see the. tectonic plates shifting. the transatlantic era is ending. what donald trump has done, essentially, trump 2.0 is signal to europeans that america is. >> a very different. >> country for. >> having reelected donald. >> trump and the atlantic alliance. >> which. >> was an assumption. >> for europeans that the united states was there for them. and by the way, these negotiations with ukraine over minerals reinforce this. it used to be

the united. states helped europe because it was good. for us. now the argument seems to be we'll only. >> help you. >> if we get something in return. so all of this. >> has shaken. >> up europe. that's one big thing to me. the other is, is the german result. about a third of the germans voted far left and far right. so you've got this coalition. >> that's going. >> to happen. the center right and the center left. we'll see. >> how well they can. they can govern. it's not. clear to me they're going to have the. political ability to raise. >> defense spending nearly as. much as it needs. >> to be done. >> but what worries me, though, if. >> you. >> break down some. >> of the vote. >> younger people. really quite supportive of the more extreme parties. my own sense is that if germany doesn't succeed in these few years, by the time of the next election, it could look a lot more like britain and france. and by that i mean very large, far right and far left parties. the center gets hollowed out. so i don't want to say this is the last chance for germany, but this is. >> a big. >> moment whether america can build a coalition that. >> succeeds and. >> could actually govern. and if they can, great. if they can't, the consequences for germany and

for europe would be really, really profound. >> and. >> joe, to. >> the point you were making earlier, i mean, on this show, it's not just a knee jerk reaction moment to moment for a decade now. you've been warning. >> on this. >> platform right here about the potential backlash that could come from the european union's lax immigration laws, and how often these laws have. >> led and will. >> continue to lead to a rise in the new far right in europe. take a look. >> obviously, none of us here. >> elise, are sitting here excited. >> about. >> the emergence of far right nationalist parties. at the same time. >> they didn't. >> rise out. of out. >> of. >> of, you know, dust. they, they rose because the eu has had disastrous. open border. policies for. >> years now. >> i guess the bigger issue here that we need to talk about then, is the fact that europe. >> is letting us down there. >> they are letting.

>> us down. >> with their. >> porous eu borders. they are letting. >> us down. i mean. >> angela merkel gets on. >> the front. >> of. >> time magazine as. >> person of the year last year. >> for basically an. >> extraordinarily reckless. >> policy that makes. >> everybody feel good, but allows refugees to just. aren't processed properly to flood into europe. i haven't. >> understood why. mainstream political. parties have not. given the. >> voters of europe a middle. >> choice. >> when it comes to immigration. >> it's an all or nothing. you either support open borders and somebody be. >> able to being able to get in and turkey and move. >> around freely. and blow up something in london, or. >> you're a racist. those are the two choices voters have. >> been given. >> and it's no secret. why people. >> like le pen. >> have actually. >> gotten a. >> following among voters who were mainstream ten years. >> ago. >> because there's never a center ground, because a politician in germany can't take a center ground, or france can't. >> take. >> a center ground on immigration and talk about

culture, talk about. borders without being. >> called a neo nazi. >> then you just. >> cede the entire pitch. >> will say. >> to the far right. >> it echoes what i've been saying about european leaders for about five years, where they are so absolutist. >> on open borders. >> they are so absolutist about letting mass flow. >> of immigrants into their country. >> that. >> if you. >> don't do that. >> then you're a neo-nazi. >> there's never been a middle. >> ground in europe over the. >> past five years. >> which is naturally. >> led to the sort of right. >> wing nationalist governments growing. >> in europe. >> it seems. >> to me you go back to 2015, the refugee crisis spilling out of syria. so many of the dramatic changes that have. >> come in. >> across europe have come in part as a reaction to an

immigration system that allows somebody to come into one eu country and go across borders. all of them. anybody that suggested. >> that having an. >> absolutist view. >> in the. >> eu. >> where somebody could come in one country and go. >> across the. >> entire continent of europe. anybody that suggested that that might not be wise was. >> branded a. >> right wing extremist. this absolutist. >> view of warned for a decade would lead to far. right parties. >> becoming more powerful. >> in europe. >> so how does that. >> all connect. >> with what we saw in germany yesterday? >> well, i think in a couple of ways, first of all, and those warnings were going back even before 2016. it's something. we've been warned for very long time. yeah. i mean, you can look at it. for you. notice the hair? my hair changes radically year in and year out. >> it loses. >> and richard haass stay the same. but i think, though, you're actually starting to see a reaction to it, you're starting to see a reaction. >> you've seen it over the past

year. they were. >> a. >> decade late, richard. but you actually have started to see a shift, let's. >> say, with macron. you you certainly. >> do have. >> in this new german government, a german government who enraged a lot of people by. our a german leader who who enraged a lot of people. >> by actually. >> going through that. firewall and working with afd to pass tougher immigration laws, because that's the only way he can do it. i think it's going to they're going to be able to do it now with this grand coalition. but, you know. >> if. >> you're a german voter and angela merkel lets in over a million syrians. without checking their security and. in no. >> vetting process. >> whatsoever, and this. >> was basically europe's. approach for 15 years. >> and if anybody questioned anything, they were immediately called a nazi. >> it's just. not hard. >> to predict what's going to come of that. the question is. are european leaders like mers responding now in a way. >> that pushes. >> back against that right wing

extremism? >> they're beginning to, joe. but, you know, europe. >> still. >> has open borders within the eu. so if any single country in europe has opened this, it affects the other two dozen countries. so i still think europe has a way to go. it hasn't quite come to terms with immigration. it's also many countries france, germany, britain in particular has had real problems with integration. it was you know, merkel was rather sanguine about it. but i think the idea that you can absorb large numbers in short amounts of time and have them learn the language and get comfortable with the culture has proven to be not quite true. and by the way, it's impossible to have this country, this conversation, joe, and not think about the parallels here, about the implications of open borders in the first few years of the biden administration. i would say, as much as anything, a responsible for donald trump getting getting reelected. i think it's pretty, pretty straightforward. >> and if anybody would like us to pull up clips. >> from 2122. as we're issuing those warnings here in america. it's not we could be glad. we'll

be. >> glad to do that as well. >> because the warnings were there, and it was obvious there as well though. but again, mika, what you're what you're starting to see though, is you are starting to see some european leaders moderate a bit. yeah. and, and we have seen the impact in america and the impact from the last election. i will say though, there is a huge difference between the united states and france, a huge difference between the united states and germany. we are a nation of immigrants. we are a nation that was built on immigrants coming to this country over the past 250 years. it's just not the case with germany. it's not the case with france. and when you bring in a million plus immigrants from syria overnight, it's going to. >> have this. >> sort of impact again. sure. >> merkel got. time's person of the year. it probably be much better if there. >> had been a more reasonable, rational approach that. understood german culture or.

>> french culture, or. >> even or even british culture. it's far different than the united states. we are a melting pot, and even we. had trouble absorbing culturally the images. >> that we. >> saw in 21 and 22. >> all right. >> still ahead on morning joe. >> as we mentioned, today marks three years since russia began its full scale invasion of ukraine. >> this comes. >> as some top trump administration. >> officials will not admit. >> that moscow was the aggressor. we'll show. >> you those new. >> remarks and. >> be joined. >> by ukraine's former foreign >> by ukraine's former foreign minister. we're back in 90s. if you have bladder leaks when you laugh or cough- like we did- there's a treatment that can help: bulkamid. and the relief can last for years. we're so glad we got bulkamid. visit findrealrelief.com to find a physician near you. got eyelid itching, crusties and swelling that won't go away?

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reason. >> i don't get it. >> do you have. >> any idea how. >> much this will. >> cost at other restaurants? >> not really. i'm only six. >> a lot. >> honey, lock it up. >> okay. >> yeah. >> mr. president, cover of every. >> newspaper just about is your stance on ukraine. >> i was looking up. >> i almost found no indications that you said. anything bad about zelensky up until the last few days. and it seems as though when he. >> didn't. >> take the mineral deal and was critical. >> of you for having. >> having a. >> delegation talk in saudi arabia. >> with russia. >> that was. >> a turning. >> point for you. correct? >> i've been watching for years, and i've been watching him negotiate with no cards. he has no cards, and you get sick of it. you just get sick of it. and i've had it. and he then made a deal with us for rare earth and things. and who knows what rare earth is worth, you know? but at least it's something. but look what you have. you have a man

who's led a country that had the most beautiful cities that they demolished, had the most beautiful domes. those domes are the most beautiful. it's all russia's. but that's russia's fault, though, mr. president. russia did the demolished a thousand year old domes and everything's demolished. i mean, it's like a demolition site. it's sort of like gaza. in fact, it's more demolished. at least gaza has a couple of buildings standing. i mean, this place. you take a look at the demolition of so many of those cities and all those those people are killed, never to come back again. >> but. mr. president. >> that's all this. >> that's vladimir putin's fault. >> don't you agree? i get tired of listening to it. i'll tell you what. i've seen it enough. and then he complains that he's not at a meeting that we're having with saudi arabia trying to intermediate a peace. well, he's been at meetings for three years with a very with a president who didn't know what the hell he was doing. he's been

in a meeting for three years and nothing got done. so i don't think he's very important to be at meetings, to be honest with you. he's been there for three years. he makes it very hard to make deals. but look what's happened to his country. it's been demolished. >> but no, no. >> i. >> hear you. >> mr. president, but you know. >> who to blame. >> for that. >> that's why. don't you think it's. >> vladimir putin that did the invasion unwarranted to try to take back land they had. >> no right to? >> and don't you think fundamentally that's that. and if you could just. and now now both sides want to talk. it seems so we should just get to that point. >> they only want to talk because of me. if i wasn't involved, they wouldn't be talking to each other. and russia would continue to, you know, go through ukraine because they are going through brian. they've taken a lot of land. and russia would continue the march through ukraine. if it wasn't for me, they wouldn't be talking at all. i'm the only reason they're talking. >> well, they're. >> weren't talking because vladimir putin wouldn't talk to zelensky first of all. secondly,

it is interesting, brian kilmeade kept trying to say. >> well. >> if all the buildings are knocked down, mr. president, they're all knocked down because of vladimir putin. i mean, that's the reason why they're destroyed. and so now for some reason, the logic is that. >> you actually. >> punish a country for being invaded and having their buildings knocked down by a russian invader. it's very interesting. mark halperin's newsletter this morning talks about how there are many democrats and others who believe that things are turning just a bit, and he he makes a long list talking about how maybe the reasons why donald trump's negatives keep going up and a few things that he lists are and you can hear it right there, you can see it in the new york post. you can see it in wall street journal editorial page. those are three. rupert murdoch run

outlets. america in the world will not stand for trump insulting zelensky writes the wide world of news. zelensky is proudly standing up to trump. trump kowtowing to putin is unseemly, but and also has consequences for the world. empowering the russian dictator and emboldening. >> she. >> among many other negative spin off effects. and that. >> that is. >> i think, for republicans that i speak to mika off the record, their real concern. of course, they're horrified. that it is zelensky that's being called a dictator and putin getting a free pass. but what they're really concerned about is the message that it's sending to communist, the communist chinese, who. if putin is given a free pass for invading ukraine. >> then these. >> republicans and all democrats and they'll say it publicly, are afraid that donald trump is empowering the communist chinese to invade taiwan.

>> so it's. >> not just president trump taking the position. you heard in. >> that radio interview. >> now, three trump administration officials are dodging questions about whether russia is responsible, a. >> simple question. >> for starting the conflict. >> in ukraine. >> here's what defense secretary pete hegseth, national security adviser. >> michael waltz, and. special envoys. steve witkoff. >> had to say yesterday. >> i don't need. >> to get into the characterization of we know who invaded who. we understand the stakes of this game. the america, more than any other country in the world, has invested in helping ukraine defend itself. now it's time for peace. and that's what the president is dedicated to. so standing here and saying, you're. >> good. >> you're bad, you're a dictator. you're not a dictator. you invaded. you didn't. it's not useful. it's not productive. and so president trump isn't getting drawn into that in unnecessary ways. and as a result, we're closer to peace today than ever before. >> but fair to. >> say, russia. >> attacked unprovoked into ukraine three years ago tomorrow.

>> fair to say it's. >> a very complicated situation. >> can you. >> acknowledge that russia. >> is the aggressor here? >> well, you know what? who would you rather. have and. >> go toe to toe with. the likes of vladimir putin, kim jong un, she or. >> anyone else. >> joe biden or donald trump? he's the dealmaker in chief. >> he's the. >> commander in chief. >> and it's only. >> because his. of his strength. >> that we're even in this position. >> and president trump's own words have been that russia invaded a. >> neighbor. >> under bush, under obama. and under biden. >> but not him. >> it didn't happen his. >> first term, and he's going to bring it to an end. his second term, the war. >> irrespective of who started. >> it, needs. >> to end. >> too many people's lives have been expunged. >> as a. >> result of it, and. >> it just. >> doesn't make sense. >> to the president. >> he wants to be the peacemaking president. peace through strength. >> and i don't blame him. i actually. concur right down the line. >> with his thought. >> process around this. that's one. two that the.

>> war didn't. >> need to happen. it was provoked. >> it doesn't necessarily mean it was provoked by. >> the russians. there were all kinds of conversations back then about ukraine joining nato. the president has spoken about this. that didn't need to happen. it basically became a threat to the russians. >> and so. >> we have to deal with that fact. >> and those are. >> real facts on the ground here. >> i actually was going to say. that steve. >> witkoff first, the first. >> talking point was actually really what the line for everybody should have been, which is this. >> is. >> a president. >> who is. >> concerned about peace. but then we go on and unfortunately. >> the second. >> part of it. >> suggested that vladimir. >> putin was provoked into invading ukraine. i must say the not the most surprising, unfortunately, let's just say. >> the. >> most. curious from somebody

that talks. >> about a warrior spirit. >> in the military. i hearing our secretary of defense. >> saying. >> well. >> there are many complicated questions about who started. the war three. >> years ago. it is it. >> is not complicated. it it is not complicated. who began the war with their invasion into ukraine, trying to get. >> to kyiv. >> within three days? >> it's not complicated. if you read the wall street journal editorial page, it's not complicated. even if you read the. >> new york. >> post, vladimir putin is the tyrant. vladimir putin is the dictator, vladimir putin is. >> the invader. >> according to the new york. >> post. >> the. >> wall street journal. >> editorial page. and most republicans. >> in the. >> united states. >> senate. >> and house. >> yes. >> i mean, this was. >> a sort of an orwellian. display of people. saying 90s.

day black. >> is white. >> i'm auditioning to. >> be the baghdad. bob of the situation. it's quite. humiliating for them. because they know better. >> what at. >> least mike. >> waltz knows better. >> i don't know much. >> about steve. >> witkoff political views. >> but i know that mike. >> waltz has. >> a very clear, as does. >> marco rubio. >> history of. >> speaking out about. russian aggression. >> i guess the question is, in. >> what sense does this help. >> reach some kind of a deal. >> on the ground? >> and the answer is it doesn't. >> it just. >> sort of feeds. >> the idea. >> that this. >> is. >> a russia. >> first. >> not an america. first administration. >> it stokes. putin's ego. it incentivizes. >> him to play whatever. >> games he wants. >> to play on the. >> battlefield. >> to try. >> and improve. >> his negotiating position. >> and we've seen. >> an uptick, by.

>> the way. >> of russian drone attacks on ukraine. >> so this doesn't. >> even make sense. >> from a machiavellian point of view. >> this doesn't. >> increase their bargaining leverage at the negotiating table. >> it really. >> is. >> a sorry. >> thing to watch. >> it's orwellian and it. >> diminishes the united. >> states to. >> hear this kind of nonsense. to be frank. >> trump officials. refusing to say that. >> russia was the. >> aggressor in. >> this. >> war. >> trump officials refusing. >> to. >> say that putin. >> is the one who's. >> a dictator, not. >> zelenskyy and woodcock. >> actually, at an event just a few days prior, said that in his meetings in moscow, he was working on developing a, quote, friendship with vladimir putin. meanwhile, earlier you heard president trump mention the u.s. proposal for ukraine to give america sweeping access to its valuable minerals, including titanium and lithium. president zelensky, rejecting the framework of that plan that would see kyiv hand over. half

of its resource revenues to a u.s. controlled fund until it reaches $500 billion. zelensky, meanwhile, said yesterday that he's willing to resign from his post in exchange for peace in ukraine or nato membership, if that's what it takes. joining us now, the former foreign minister of ukraine, dmytro kuleba. he is a senior fellow at the harvard belfer center. mr. minister, thank you so much for joining us this morning. we really appreciate it. let's start there. there's so much to get to, but let's start there with that deal that president zelensky to this point has said it does not work. for kyiv. tell us more about his objections. and is there some sort of middle ground, or is the ukraine government open to some sort of structure there, where some form of these rare minerals would be exchanged to washington in exchange for continuing aid? >> good morning. well. >> there are two. >> main objective. >> objections coming. >> from ukraine with. >> regard to the deal. >> the first. >> one is. >> that in. principle it turns.

>> us assistance. >> that was already. >> delivered to. >> ukraine in. >> in the form of a grant. >> of unconditional support. >> into a loan. >> that ukraine. has to. >> pay back. i mean, this. >> this change. >> this would. >> not stand. >> in the in. >> the us. >> court for. >> three years. the assistance. >> was provided and. >> then you all of a. sudden are told that this was a loan that you have to pay back. the second problem is that. >> kyiv. >> does not really. see what it. >> gets in. >> return for the. >> deal. >> because the. >> trump administration. >> is making the point. >> what ukraine must. >> give to the united. >> states without actually. specifying what. >> how ukraine. >> benefits from it. >> and zelensky, rightly so, tries to negotiate the best conditions. >> for the country. >> this is. where we are. but in. >> principle it could be a good deal if it was. >> made in in an appropriate, responsible way and not under duress as it is the case now.

>> mr. kuleba, it sounds. >> that one of the appropriate. responsible ways might. >> be with. >> some kind of a security guarantee for ukraine in exchange for those minerals, but president trump is very keen not to give those. >> do you. >> think that ukraine could rely on europe to give those kind of security guarantees? do you hear from your european partners that they are moving faster and aggressively enough so that they could be in a position to shore up ukraine's security future? >> let's be clear on definitions here. >> a security. >> guarantee in. >> the most in. >> the in the classic way of. understanding it is when someone is ready to fight for. >> you. >> and when if you are attacked. >> this is what nato. >> for example. >> is like. >> no, i. >> do not think there. >> is any single. european country that is. >> ready to fight along shoulder. >> to shoulder with ukrainian. soldiers against russia. but there. >> is plenty of commitment. >> that has emerged that. >> have emerged recently.

>> in europe. to significantly step up their support to. >> ukraine. and europe can do a lot. >> it has a defense. >> industrial base. >> it has 300 billion russian frozen. >> assets. >> and it has commitment. and most importantly. it finally has the understanding that the united states abandoned europe. >> so this is. >> actually an even. stronger motivation and motivation. >> for them to. >> act swiftly. >> the only question. >> is how swift can they be? >> former foreign minister. >> of ukraine. >> dmytro kuleba, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. >> greatly appreciate it. >> and. richard haass, just final thoughts on ukraine, the german election and how the trump administration is handling all of this. >> just one specific point. first, on ukraine missing from the conversation a little bit, joe, and all this talk about security guarantees is the

question of security assurances. i would like to know what the trump administration is prepared to say to ukraine about america's willingness to provide arms going forward. that might be actually the most important security assurance we could make. put aside nato, put aside your european troops. will the united states continue to be, to use a phrase from world war two, the arsenal of democracy here? i don't see that being discussed publicly, and i would think that's important. taking the larger question you just put on the table. i don't know about you, but i feel this very uncomfortable sense of history unfolding here as we question our support for ukraine, pull away from the from nato and from the atlantic alliance without putting anything in its place. all these overtures, this soft peddling of relations with russia, this is a really uncomfortable moment where a lot of the things that i think those of us sitting around this table took as givens and by the way, that worked pretty well for 80 years. this has been an

extraordinarily successful period of history where, for the most part, we avoided any sort of conflict in europe. we avoided great power conflict altogether. and suddenly some of the basics are being tossed away without anything that i can say, considered or viable, being put in its place. i almost feel if you're not worried, watch watching what's going on? you're not paying attention. >> yeah, i will say exactly right. i will. >> say, though, the arc of history, it. >> depends on more than just one branch. even though the president of the united states, the commander in chief, has a disproportionate amount of power on where he wants to take foreign policy, we still have, despite what you may have heard on social media outlets or seen on tick tock. run by communist chinese. despite what what you hear out there. >> we still. >> are a country. >> that has three separate. >> and equal powers, and it depends on whether republicans are just going to be quiet and

growls and in the cloakroom and sit back and whine and whimper about what's going on at the white house, or whether they're going to stand up and continue to support freedom not only for ukraine, but across all of europe. >> across the west. >> and across. >> the world. >> and if. >> they decide to. >> capitulate, as they have in many ways over the past month, well, then yes, history will bend in the direction of. dictators like communist chinese xi and like former kgb agent vladimir putin. >> that's their choice. let's hope they choose wisely. >> richard haass, thank you. very much. and us national. >> editor at the financial. >> times. >> ed luce, thank. >> you as well. >> your latest piece from the editorial board entitled. america has turned on its friends, is available online. >> right now. >> at the financial times. coming up, elon musk tells

federal employees to explain what they did last week or. >> resign. >> but that ultimatum is facing pushback from some of president trump's top administration officials. also ahead, democrats with an eye on the white house in 2028 are divided on how to confront donald trump. we'll get to that new reporting straight ahead on morning joe. ahead on morning joe. >> and. if you have heart failure or chronic kidney disease, farxiga can help you keep living life, because there are places you'd like to be. (♪♪) serious side effects include increased ketones in blood or urine and bacterial infection between the anus and genitals, both which may be fatal, severe allergic reactions, dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections,

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>> time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. at ten minutes before the top of the hour, staff members at the kennedy center say ticket sales dropped by roughly 50% after president trump announced his plans to take over the institution. trump put ric grenell in charge, who promised to, quote, make art great again. now, performers are weighing their options, with some considering canceling performances, while others plan to still take to the stage in the face of resistance. warren buffett offered some advice to washington in his annual letter to shareholders. the berkshire hathaway ceo cautioned lawmakers to spend money wisely and to

take care of those who get the short straws. in life. the 94 year. >> old noted. >> his companies paid more in corporate income tax than even. >> the. >> american tech titans. berkshire now holds more than $330 billion in. >> cash after. selling off much. of its apple. >> and bank of america. >> stock in. >> cash right now. >> the past. >> year. >> he's gone very conservative. he did it right before. >> the tech. >> the.com bubble. yeah. >> and was criticized until. >> of course the bubble burst. yeah he was. >> right then. and many fear that he's right now to be hoarding gas and staying out of the market. >> and the cost of coffee is soaring. >> around the world. >> by some measures, the global price has more than. >> doubled over the. >> past year. climate change has disrupted production. >> from the. >> americas to east africa, with rising temperatures and changing. rain patterns. retail coffee prices are expected to

rise in a pronounced way during the first quarter of this year. that's bad. still ahead, journalist tina. >> brown will join us on her. >> recent piece that explores what rahm. >> emanuel could. >> teach democrats. in order for the party. to win again. plus, the cdc is stopping a successful flu vaccination campaign, and it's sparking. major health concerns. >> we'll speak with a doctor. >> who will explain why this removal is coming. >> at an. >> inopportune time. but first, it's the end of a hair. we'll tell you why. the new york yankees is about to look a little bit more different than ever before. pablo torre is standing by with his. take on the team's new facial hair policy and much. much more. policy and much. much more. morning joe will be right 7 million us businesses rely on tiktok to compete. within a week of posting, i had over $25,000 in sales. i don't have a million dollars

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alex ovechkin number 880. >> jakob chychrun. >> waits ovechkin fires. scores. the second tonight. >> draisaitl leagues leading. >> goal scored. >> emerson stick snapped. here's ovechkin. got it. another hat trick for alexander ovechkin 12

to tie and 13 away from history. >> alexander ovechkin. >> with the hat trick. >> yesterday in washington, moving him now. >> just 13 goals. >> away from breaking a record that many. >> thought would. >> be unbreakable. that's wayne gretzky's 894. >> career goals. ovechkin is now. >> on pace to. >> move ahead. >> of. >> the. >> great one before the end of the regular season, even though he's missed 16 games this year with a broken leg. calvin pickard of the edmonton oilers became the 181st goaltender. ovechkin has scored on, which is already the most in nhl history. gretzky all time leader in points, assists, goals, but goals maybe not much longer. ovechkin getting close. now let's turn a couple other sports headlines here, including this moment on the hardwood. a student at bucknell is $10,000 richer thanks to an unlikely source, one of the most prolific home run hitters. in league baseball history.

>> yeah. >> that's alex rodriguez. >> a-rod seeking a half. >> court. >> half court shot yesterday afternoon during halftime of bucknell's game against army. the three time mvp was at the university to speak about his company. jump platforms, which was founded with a bucknell graduate. the student who won the ten grand says he's going to give it to his parents to help pay for tuition. you can hear yankee fans all over the place saying, oh, so now he's clutch. >> a-rod hits the. >> three pointer there, wins $10,000. >> joe, for. >> that bucknell student. >> nice. >> i know it's. extraordinarily painful for you to say anything even halfway nice about a-rod, but. >> i only. >> did it. >> because i. >> could set up. >> the joke at the end. that was the whole that was the deal there. >> we noticed. >> all right. >> we noticed.

>> well, let let let. >> let's bring you the house of pablo. tori finds out on meadowlark media, msnbc contributor pablo torre. pablo, feel free if you would like to. >> discuss a-rod's. >> half court shot. >> sort of, you know, balance out here but but but but a lot to talk about. of course i'm sure you'd like to talk about the most. successful conference in in. ncaa basketball history through. >> the regular season. that of course, is. >> southeastern conference, who has probably 20 of the 20 top 25 top teams. but also. >> while we're on. >> the yankees, let's talk about facial hair. the end. as as. joanna wrote. >> in the tease. >> the end. >> of an era. >> yeah. >> this is. >> 49 years. >> and lameere likes to. >> you know, laugh at the tradition. >> the standard. >> so do you, joe. >> the history here. >> this is. 49 years. >> of cares. >> of hold on, hold on. >> who cares? >> lou piniella. >> once asked george. >> steinbrenner, who.

>> created this policy. >> jesus christ had long. hair and a beard. why can't we? and george steinbrenner. >> the late. george steinbrenner. >> the great george steinbrenner. >> said. >> when you. >> when you can walk. >> across that pond. >> you too can have long. >> hair and a beard, you know? so this has. >> been a. >> theological standard, joe. >> this has been something. >> that i've grown. >> up with. this is. >> my chair. >> lameere. >> let me just. >> say, a theological. standard that has. >> gotten them one. >> world series. >> championship this century. >> so obviously. >> they need to do something to try to mix things up. by the way, are we really are we really going to bury the lead here? bregman 333 great hits. yesterday a home run. bregman already mid-season form in february. >> yeah. >> first let's. >> of course, there have been some pretty impressive yankee mustaches over the decades, so we shouldn't overlook. but you're right. they got to do something to change their karma because, well, let's remember it has been a long while since the yankees have won a world series.

when we. >> last saw them, they were. >> blowing game. >> five of the world series. >> and now we have alex bregman and the yankees. >> the disagree. >> a more challenging american league east for the yankees this year because the red sox are on the rise. and for all of our complaining and there has been much. the red sox had a successful offseason, including the capper here, alex bregman, three hits yesterday, including that home run. he has pablo. and again. it's february. alex bregman has terrific numbers. lifetime at fenway. he is there. they were desperate for a right handed power bat, which they now have. and he's the kind of guy. and look, i admit it, bregman is the kind of guy that when he's on someone else's team, you hate him. but when he's on your team, you quickly go to. >> yes. >> former houston. >> astros and. >> all star. >> a. >> really good hitter. >> himself. >> by the way, at. >> the center of a pretty. >> hairy situation. >> when it. >> came to where's he going to play. >> on your. >> red sox. >> where is. >> he going. >> third. >> have you figured. >> that have you. guys figured

that. >> out yet? >> well, you know what the problem is in that scenario. >> the problem here. is just i've got to say it's an embarrassment of riches. we're really concerned. i mean, our biggest concern right now is you look at all of the future. all stars right now. we've got to figure out. >> where. >> to play roman anthony. we've got to figure out. where to play campbell, who's going. >> to be. >> who's going. >> to be the best second baseman. no, you. >> look. >> at the. >> numbers last year. that's just red sox february delusion. light it. >> by the. >> way. >> if you've heard. >> us. >> talk over the last five years, you've heard. >> nothing but negativity from us. >> about what's happened. we're feeling good this year. you know what else though? >> you know what? we're not feeling good. >> about mika. >> what's that? >> burglaries. >> no. what? what is this? >> oh. >> well. >> we're learning more about the men who are facing federal. charges for allegedly burglarizing homes of kansas city chiefs star patrick mahomes and travis kelce back in october, and the suspects connection to burglaries involving other high profile

athletes across the nation. pablo, thank god you've been tracking this critical story. what can you tell us? >> so it's pretty crazy. >> what i'm here to. >> tell you. >> is that there have. >> been at least. >> a dozen high profile athlete. burglaries in the last year or so. and what's been happening. >> is that. >> there has. >> been an international gang based in south america. the fbi has identified a. chilean gang in specific based in chile. and what they've been doing is taking. >> advantage of some of. >> the unique things about. pro athletes. >> which is. >> you know, their salary, you know, oftentimes what. >> their house looks like. and most crucially. >> you know, when they're. >> not going. >> to be home. >> so some of the downsides of the great job that is, of course, the childhood dream of every american playing professional sports is, you know, when you got to be at work. >> and so there. >> has been a sophisticated. >> gang that has been going and robbing joe burrow, travis kelce, patrick mahomes. nba players like joe moran stars in. >> their homes. >> working with a. pretty elaborate network of people that

has been undone, as i think the most. modern version of morality play would suggest. undone by a selfie. so one of the burglars here and you can you can see this in the photo that the us attorney's office has obtained. they were. >> they were bragging. >> they're always bragging. they just robbed bobby portis. >> they got. >> al capone. >> yeah. right. >> there is a. >> safe there too. >> something like that. yeah. yep. >> they're posing with. >> a safe. >> they're wearing chiefs red. and so finally they have a bead on this. but it has been the talk of sports because no one was figuring out. how is it that no one can stop these guys? well, they stopped themselves. >> in the end. >> that's crazy. host of pablo tory finds out on meadowlark media. msnbc contributor pablo torres. >> took a selfie. of themselves committing a crime. >> stupidity. >> next time. >> pablo, we're going to get your thoughts on a trend of great national importance. >> very important. >> that you're following. >> on your podcast. people online celebrating being dull.

>> that's right. >> i can't wait. >> to talk about this. >> our investigation continues. >> yes. all right. >> what it. is six minutes. >> past the top of the hour, president trump, our top story is directing. >> elon musk. >> and his doge team to get even more aggressive with federal employee. >> job cuts. >> on saturday, musk issued. >> an ultimatum. >> to federal employees. posting on social. media that all staffers must respond. >> to an email justifying. >> the work they completed. over the past week or resign. but not every trump official appears to be on the same page. fbi director kash patel instructed employees to pause any responses to. >> musk's email. >> employees of the. >> state. >> department, the national. institutes of health, the defense department. >> and the. >> national security agency were. >> also told not. >> to respond to the email. >> and we're seeing, again, you're you're seeing employees from the fda being asked to come

back. the mass firings that, again, are blowing up in their faces, and that is causing serious problems. >> yeah. the trump administration has put nearly all. of usaid 4700 full. time employees. on leave, and is set to eliminate 1600 positions at the agency. this comes after a federal judge on friday cleared the way for the trump administration to move forward with. its plans to dismantle. >> the. >> agency by pulling thousands of workers off the job at the pentagon. president trump has fired the country's highest ranking military officer, joint chiefs of staff chairman cq. >> brown jr. brown held. >> the post since october 2023, after. >> he. >> was nominated by former president. >> biden and. >> was the. second black person to serve in the. >> role, after. >> army general. >> colin powell. >> that announcement also came as defense secretary pete

hegseth said he is firing chief of naval operations. admiral lisa. >> franchetti and. >> air force chief. of staff general james slife. and as joe mentioned, the food. >> and drug. >> administration is. >> asking some of its scientists that it recently fired to come back to work, multiple sources. >> familiar with the. >> matter say the fda is looking to rehire. around 300 people fired as part of the doge cuts, the white house had previously told reuters the administration had fired over 1000 fda staffers. this comes as the administration also looks to rehire. >> some employees. >> who were responsible for u.s. nuclear weapons, and scientists working. >> on the. >> growing bird flu. outbreak say. >> they need it. >> actually. >> those those people. >> you know, john, john lemire, the all of these cuts we've we've been warning about. it from the very beginning, saying, most americans we believe, i

believe, certainly think that there's too much waste, fraud and abuse in the federal government. it's what democratic and republican congresses administrations have been saying for. >> 30, 40 years. >> but that town hall meeting that. >> we saw last. >> at the end of last week in georgia and that very republican district showed as as one of the men who stood up and said one of the town hall members said that. >> it's. >> just too sloppy. and we're seeing this time and time again. and those complaints are coming from inside. >> the house. >> those complaints are coming from inside the agencies. those complaints are coming from republicans as well as democrats, who are. >> starting to. >> see important parts of these agencies gutted and also seeing funding, whether it's. >> in the university. >> of. iowa for nih, whether it's through the university of alabama, whether it's to all. these other southern state schools, you're starting to see that. and the bigger concern, and it's something that. >> james carville talked about. and we'll we'll talk. >> about this in a second. the

bigger concern for a lot of these people is what's going to happen when. rural hospitals. face the brunt of the medicaid. cuts that are coming. rural hospitals have already been shutting down for many americans. probably the majority of americans in, in, in, in red state america, their parents go. to medicaid funded nursing homes because the nursing homes that medicare doesn't cover. and so you're going to see more and more and more of this. and apparently, nobody inside the trump administration can. >> say. >> hold on, we're overreaching here. this may be one of the reasons why. i talked about halperin's newsletter earlier. >> he said. >> at least five credible national polls showed donald trump standing going down, especially the negative numbers actually going up a good bit. it

seems that there. >> agency heads. >> that are saying, no, no, no, no. we can't have this chaos inside our agencies. but nobody in the white. house issuing the warnings. >> that this. >> is going to have. >> a significant. >> impact on ratings and the ability to get things done down the road. >> i mean. >> you're right. americans broadly like the idea of shrinking government, eliminating waste. but now it feels like they're learning specifics here and they're not so sure. we are seeing those polls where trump's numbers are starting to fall a little bit. we are seeing the anger at some of these town halls as americans learn exactly what's being cut. we are seeing agency heads pushing back against elon musk, although some of that is, i think, preserving their own power to fire who they want, as opposed to just having musk walk in and do it. and i think we should spend a moment here on the military dismissals to including all the lawyers, the jags from all these agency heads, really concerning. we heard the secretary of defense say flat out say these were roadblocks, perhaps these lawyers to being what we want to do and they're being dismissed.

meanwhile, we have a podcaster, a maga podcaster just named deputy director of the fbi to help kash patel. and you mentioned democratic strategist james carville. he's out with a bold prediction, saying that the trump administration and republican lawmakers will suffer a massive collapse in 30 days. let's take a look. >> what i've said very. >> publicly, the democrats need to play possum. this whole thing is collapsing. it doesn't need elizabeth. warren in somebody screaming to pacify some progressive advocacy groups in washington, which, by the way, i wish these people were just useless. they're actually worse than useless, that they're detrimental. and they never, ever learn to shut up. and so, dan, this is what i believe. i believe that this administration, in less than 30 days, in the midst of a massive collapse, in particularly. >> a collapse in public. >> opinion, it's going to be easy pickings here in six weeks.

just lay back. so you literally. >> you literally. >> think 30 days to six weeks. the trump administration is effectively. >> going to collapse. >> in terms of public support. >> well, it's collapsing right now. we're in the midst of a collapse. this is the lowest approval, not even close at any president has ever had at a comparable time. again, that that approval fact. so they're not going to be able to get a debt extension. that's pretty clear. i don't think they're going to be able to pass reconciliation, but i'm not sure. but they're going to have to go to hakeem. and that is going to be the equivalent of stacking arms. it's over. >> well. >> that's that is certainly. >> a pronouncement. >> that's certainly one view of it. >> again, going back to wide world of news, halperin also

quotes from heather cox richardson's newsletter, her quote of timothy snyder, who is a scholar on authoritarianism, who said something is shifting. >> they are still. >> breaking things and stealing things, and they will keep trying to break and steal. but the propaganda magic around the oligarchical coup. is fading. nervous musk, nervous trump. and the point is not that necessarily everything is going to be over in 30 days, or that things are going to collapse in 30 days. but democrats, for the first time since election day and that's this is what halperin's wide world of news is saying. for the first time. since election day, democrats are starting to see an opening. and with that opening, a lot of questions, mika, about. >> who will lead this party. >> right. joining us now, co-founder ceo of axios, jim vandehei, and journalist, editor and author. of the newsletter

fresh hell. >> available on. >> substack tina brown. >> i love it. >> my favorite. >> time for a newsletter. >> the bbc's. >> katty kay is still with us as well. she's the host of the rest is politics podcast, which is amazing as well. >> so jim vandehei, you've actually written about. axios is actually written about this, which is this sort of different camps that we have right now fo. leaders who want. to take. charge of the democratic party and lead. >> the. >> fight against republicans and donald trump. talk about that. >> yeah. i mean. >> i don't know. >> if. >> carville is spot. >> on in his. >> analysis. >> like he's. >> got. >> to look at where the democratic party is right now, right? we have also have polls showing democrats have never been as a party more unpopular than they are at this moment. on top of that, they don't have much power, right? if you don't control the senate, you don't control the house, you don't control the white house, you don't control the courts. there's only so many levers that you can that you can actually

pull. so the debate inside the party is, do you accept that some of the things that donald trump wants to do directionally might be correct? and that puts sort of governor whitmer or governor polis in colorado in that camp saying, listen, maybe they're with them on tariffs or part of tariffs. maybe they're with them on the border and conceding that that things need to be done, and not that every day doesn't need to be a fight. that's one camp. i think the other is your chris murphy, a senator from connecticut, or jd pritzker in illinois. people who are from very liberal states where they have the freedom to be in sort of the warfare mindset day in and day out, our in, our out. and i think that is the that is the big fight. i think, you know, we know the way politics works. is it trump's going to live or die based on his performance? like tell me what inflation looks like in a month. tell me what the jobless rate looks like. tell me where wages are and tell me how much chaos flows from some of the decisions of the first 30 days. and i'll tell you kind of where

his public standing is and whether or not republicans will break. but so far, there's zero sign. >> you saw it. you had it. >> this morning. the idea that no republican will speak up and say, hey, maybe vladimir putin is a thug, maybe he's a dictator. maybe he's been hell bent for his entire life, starting at the kgb to destroy your nation. maybe he's zelinski. you could argue whether or not we should be there or not. there. you can't argue like, oh, he started the war when someone invaded me. and yet you don't have a single republican who says, hey, that's crazy. that's counter everything we've ever believed in our careers. and i think that speaks to the power trump will have until those poll numbers go way the hell down. >> well, yeah. >> until if. >> inflation goes up. or those poll numbers go down, the economy goes down. exactly. i think you're right. i don't see that happening within 30 days. but but you are right. i mean, vladimir putin has seen the united states of america as an enemy his entire life. and yet. >> here we are. >> not a single republican willing to stand up and speak.

out aggressively against against what president trump has been saying. you know, tina, your. >> your latest, your latest. >> piece in fresh hell. has this line and. >> i do agree with you, because i have. noticed that since the election. most democratic leaders have been stunned. >> one real exception to that has been rahm emanuel, who time and time again with his language. strips things down to their bare essentials. and if he let's say. he's talking about die, or let's say he's talking about trans athletes or talking about some of these hot button issues that democrats fumble around on rahm, he'll have a line for it. which is the democratic party is. >> popular. >> when they're the party. >> of. >> acceptance, they are unpopular when their party of authoritarianism on these social. >> issues or they're the party

of advocacy. >> shoving all of these issues in americans. faces even when they don't want to. >> acceptance. yes. stern advocacy? >> no. >> absolutely right. >> i mean. >> god, how much do i love james carville, by the way? >> but rahm, you know, he knows. >> how to communicate. >> and, you know, he actually. >> says. >> you. >> know, the messenger is the message because democrats like to go on about like, we. >> have to get the. >> message, right. well, the. >> messenger has to be right, too. and rahm is able. >> to speak. with clarity. which is so missing from the kind of mothballed. >> you know. euphemistic verbiage, you. >> know, that the that the democrats. >> tend to speak in. >> and he says. >> you know. democrats tend to defend. you know, they. defend the process. >> instead of the results. >> and it's absolutely true. >> you know, i mean, much, though, i love elizabeth warren. the sight of her. >> sort of parading around with a sign saying. >> you know, save. >> our cppib's like. >> what's the next thing you. >> know, save our irs. >> i mean, you know, this.

acronyms and sort of, you know, it's lame. it's lame. >> and rahm. >> is never lame. >> he. >> he has this. amazing expertise. >> which is. >> of course. >> wildly out. >> of. >> fashion to have any expertise. >> but when you think. >> that he was in a. >> chief. >> of staff, that he. >> was, you know. >> ambassador to. >> japan. >> that he was. >> mayor of chicago, the. guy has a you know, he's a he's a practitioner. he's not a advisor. >> although he has. >> been he's a practitioner. he's been in, you know, in the throng and the and the. >> throes of the real sort. of heat. >> of politics. >> and he. >> understands what. >> really works and what doesn't. he knows how to communicate. >> and yet, you know, he's also brilliant. >> so i. >> think we. need people like him who, who. intellectually top notch, but who are. communicating in ways that people can understand with clarity. >> beyond rahm emanuel. when you look around the. >> country and you look particularly to the next election, obviously. >> democrats are hoping that they're going. >> to find a candidate who can run for president. >> in four years. >> time, who can take on whoever

it is, jd. vance or whoever is the heir to donald trump. who do you see that. >> makes you. >> excited, makes you hopeful for the democrats. >> chances in the next election? >> well. >> i do think that. >> is. >> too early. >> i mean. >> i. >> wish that rahm would. >> run himself. >> and i don't see. >> why he shouldn't. i think he could and he should. >> but i think that. >> you know. >> it's probably. >> going to be at. >> you know, the sort of much lower levels of politics. it's not going. >> to come. >> from. >> the big crowd that. >> we see out there at the top. it's going to. >> come from. >> the sort of. >> the. johnny appleseed's who are being sort of grown. >> and i think that. >> rahm himself. >> is a. >> great believer in that, which is to grow. >> you know. >> right from the grass roots new leaders who can come up and somehow get into the mix. that's what. >> we're really going to need. but whoever. >> it is, they they've. >> they've got to have. >> communication skills. they've got to be able to. think and talk. >> at the same time. and if they don't have those skills, you know, get. >> out of my face. i don't want to see anybody else who people say, you know, behind closed doors. he's really fabulous. he's you know, we had that with john kerry. we, you know, we

we've had that with we had it with. >> people like romney. >> i mean. >> they don't win those people, the people who can only be stars. >> behind closed. >> doors. >> you know. >> stay behind closed doors. that's my message to them. >> so, jim vandehei. >> you've been pretty consistent and clear in the last few months, just about the uphill climb democrats have ahead of them in the wake of november's election. and one thing i've been hearing from a lot of people in the party, especially in recent weeks, is the sort of lack of leadership. yes, rahm manuel perhaps could fill that role, but right now they're looking around. they're not really seeing it. they're not sure that minority leader jeffries or schumer are right now meeting this moment there. look there. it's too early, perhaps, for the really the 2020 presidential field to emerge. what is your assessment here? who should be filling the gap in the way that during the first trump term, 2017, 2018, that first wave of trumpism, it was nancy pelosi who stepped into the breach? >> yeah. >> i mean, listen. >> over the last 20 years, we've had similar thumpings by both

parties. and when you come out of an election where you have no party control, every party goes through this and everyone's hopeless and oh my god, we have no leaders. there's not a single leader who could step up. there's not a single democrat right now who can command a national attention because of either their position, like chuck schumer is just not it. he has power in the senate, but he's just not a national figure like that. and the way that politics works, the way power works, is that it's almost always a reaction to who's in power now. and so whatever trump does, it will feed that reaction. and if he's unpopular, then little by little, republicans will break from him potentially. and it will give a clear opening for democrats to figure out, how do you run against a guy who doesn't do or believe or say anything that you thought anybody could, and get away with it in american politics? and so all the power flows through him. the reason that i'm not as certain as others that republicans will break as quickly from trump if things go poorly, is this

combination of musk and trump like the new dynamic? and you saw that in the nominating process, is that when you have the power of the presidency and the power of sort of the information warfare machine aimed at you, almost no one has the courage to stand up and take the bullet. nobody you go back to a month and a half ago, had you said that this crop of people were going to be nominated to be cabinet officials and that all of them would get through, we were saying we thought they would get through because we've kind of seen the dynamic with this republican party. but most people thought they'd be defeated. they wouldn't. it's the reason you see everyone being quiet or playing word games with russia. it's why you see everyone being quiet or playing word games with gaza, or why when the president picks a podcaster to be the number two at the fbi, where you now have two loyalists running the fbi, not two people who have a lot of experience with a massive bureaucracy that has extreme power over the entirety of the united states. they're not looking at experience like the reason that republicans don't speak out of it is fear. and the only way you get rid of fear is

by eradicating the amount of authority and popularity that trump has right now. >> ceo of. >> axios jim. vandehei and the author of the newsletter fresh hell, available on substack, tina. >> brown. >> thank you. so good to see you. >> and tina. let me just say, as i do every, every so often, i've been getting. >> harry's book. >> out and going back and rereading through because i think it's incredible. do i make myself clear? the great. >> so good. >> harold evans could have written that. he could have. >> written it yesterday. >> it is still as vital. it is still as. >> important today as ever before, isn't it? >> oh, totally. totally. i mean, he. >> could condense. >> this much to this much. >> and that's what you have to do to get anyone's. >> attention, particularly. >> now in the era when nobody, you know has two minutes. >> to do anything. >> except this. >> yeah, exactly. >> nailed it. all right, still ahead on morning joe, we'll get to peter baker's.

>> new analysis. >> in the. >> new york times. about how president trump's. >> lies and. >> distortions are. laying the groundwork for radical change. you're watching morning joe. you're watching morning joe. we'll be right back. [coughing] copd is an ugly reality. do you have his medical history? i watch as his world just keeps getting smaller. but then, trelegy helped us see things a little differently. with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy keeps airways open for a full 24 hours and prevents future flare-ups. once-daily trelegy also improves lung function, so he can breathe more freely all day and night. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia,

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>> should never have started. >> their war with. >> russia, and also. >> made time to speak. to the press on. air force. one to deliver an important message. >> we're going to go into fort knox to make sure the gold is there. you know that we're going to go into fort knox. do you know about that? how was that bad bump? we're going to go to fort knox, the fabled fort knox, to make sure the gold is there. >> where would the gold? >> the gold is in there. we're going to be very upset. >> okay. >> set aside him saying. >> that was. >> a. >> bad bump in the voice. of the aflac duck. he is. >> alluding to a. >> bonkers right wing theory that the gold in fort knox is missing. though for what it's worth, in trump's first term, his treasury secretary, steve mnuchin, actually did. >> visit there. >> and freedom of information requests yielded this photo. >> taken inside. >> where you can clearly see the gold bars. i know they're easy to miss given the certified smoke show standing in front of them. >> all right, john oliver's take on donald trump's latest conspiracy theory. joining the conversation, we have senior

writer for the dispatch, david drucker. >> and. >> chief white house correspondent. >> for the new york. >> times, peter baker. peter, your latest analysis for. >> the new york. >> times is entitled, in trump's alternate reality. >> lies and. >> distortions drive change. >> and in it. >> you write in part this in the first month since. >> he returned to power. >> he has demonstrated. >> once again. >> a brazen willingness. >> to advance. >> distortions, conspiracy theories. >> and outright. lies to. >> justify major policy decisions. mr. trump has. >> long. >> been unfettered by truth when it comes to boasting about his record and tearing. >> down his enemies. >> but what. >> we're dubbed. >> alternative facts. >> in his first. term have quickly become a whole alternative reality in his second. >> to. >> lay the groundwork for radical change as he moves to aggressively reshape america and the world. taking his real estate hucksterism and reality

show storytelling into politics, mr. trump has for. years succeeded in selling his version of events. the world, according to mr. trump, is one where he is a master of every challenge, and any failure is someone else's fault. mr. trump, who repeatedly disparaged. media fact checking during last year's. >> campaign. >> does not back off after misleading statements and lies are exposed. instead, he tends to double down repeating. >> them even. >> after it's been reported that they are not true in mr. trump's facts are fungible. world conspiracy theories at times are given as much. weight as tangible evidence, and those who traffic in them are granted access that no other president would give. and peter. your conclusion. ultimately as to where this is all going. >> well. >> look, you know, obviously it's not. >> much of a headline to say. >> that trump. >> doesn't always dabble in the truth.

>> right? this is something we've. >> seen. >> now for. >> nine years. >> on the political stage. but what's really striking. >> i. >> think, is how much he is deploying. >> misleading statements. >> distortions, lies. to justify policy changes. right. >> it's not just that. >> he's. >> bragging, which he. >> likes to do. >> he's the best. he's the biggest. >> he's the most. he's the. >> all these things. >> what he's doing is he's he's he's. >> laying out these alternative realities. >> to. >> say we need to make change. >> for instance, as we just said, right, you it wasn't. >> russia. >> the start of the war, it was ukraine. start of the war. well, if ukraine start of the war, then we don't have. to feel nearly as sympathetic toward them. and therefore we can make a deal with russia that's more tilted. toward the kremlin. if usaid is actually. >> sending $50. >> million worth of condoms to hamas, as the president claimed, falsely, of course, then maybe we should go ahead and shut down usaid. because who could be so stupid? so these are not just random, you know, falsehoods. these are meant to drive policy changes. and i think that's important to remember. >> david. i mean. >> the conversation. >> we've been having this

morning. >> about what. >> might possibly curtail. >> trump's ambitions. >> and i think jim was pointed to the right. area if trump. >> loses power. >> and that would come from losing approval ratings, which might be precipitated by something like a recession or an economic downturn. when you talk to republicans or you talk to people around donald trump, what are the concerns they have? what do you what are there any i mean, we've heard about these town halls where people are not happy. now. >> maybe some of those people. >> are democrats that have been shipped in to the town halls. maybe some are constituents who are genuinely angry. but what are you hearing around trump? people they are concerned about, if anything at all? >> well, look, i. >> think what republicans are concerned about generally. is that an axiom of the first term won't be true of the second term, which is trump blusters a lot for leverage and so-called negotiating power. but at the end of the day, on the big issues. >> that matter. >> he's going to land more or less. where i would land as a normal pre-trump era reagan republican. right. you look at foreign policy. if you look at

the first term, trump's rhetoric vis a vis russia was just as awful as it is now, just not around the war in ukraine. and yet he levied some of the hardest sanctions on russia. he shipped lethal aid to ukraine that president obama would not ship to ukraine. he made energy exports that russia relies on much tougher, which was harder on the russian economy. and so you talk to republicans, and their hope is that this is where trump will end up, despite all the things that he has been saying lately. but i think one of the things we have to remember is that trump may lose popularity broadly in the country, and we've seen that happen, particularly this century, after just a few months with a lot of presidents. but his power in republican primaries, i bet, will remain just as strong as ever, at least through the 2026 midterm elections. so if you're looking for republicans to break from trump or challenge trump, for those running for reelection in red districts, and most

districts are red or blue, or in republican states, or for those wanting to run for senate or governor in these states, then they're not going to want to upset trump, even if his numbers go down broadly. and so they will stick with him. >> so let's now turn to a related piece from new york times opinion columnist ross douthat. it's called what trump can learn from the last gop disaster. he writes in part this in the attempted shock and awe of the second trump administration. you can see ways that the vibe shift that 2025 could be squandered. so it's worth drawing some lessons from the bush era that might apply to trump and elon musk and other would be counter-revolutionaries. today. the first lesson is not to overread your mandate. trump era conservatism has a clear mandate to restrict immigration, fight inflation and wage war on die. it has no obvious mandate for making deep cuts to medicaid, among other ideas that

congressional republicans are entertaining. this connects to the second lesson if you change it, you own it. the third lesson you can't build a new elite without co-opting part of the old elite. so if you want to go to war against the establishment, you need to be clearly wooing some of its members, making it easy for them to join the winning side. even while you're roughing others up. so, david, back to you here. we saw last week at that town hall in georgia, a real anger in a republican district about some of the cuts that trump and musk are putting forth. we are seeing some polling that suggests that people are even trump supporters, uncomfortable a little bit of what's what's coming. so as you talk and you're so well plugged in with members of the gop, are there any alarm bells starting to go off? like, hey, we might be doing too much too soon? or do they think, look, the winds at our back. the voters gave us these victories in november. full speed ahead.

>> yeah. listen, i'm going to do a little fiddler on the roof on the one hand. on the other hand, here on the one hand, it's hard to find americans of any political stripe that are going to feel bad for government workers losing their jobs or getting memos saying, explain your job. because most americans work in the private sector, they've all had bosses that do things like that to them and their entire life they've had to navigate this. and so on the one hand, they're going to look at some of the changes that that trump and his allies are trying to affect in washington, and they're just simply not going to have a lot of sympathy for the idea that you're firing government workers and trying to make government more efficient. on the other hand, i think the trump administration is missing a political opportunity to better explain and execute what they're doing now. maybe voters wouldn't like it, and the way they're doing it could end up backfiring politically over time. if the agencies impacted affect people's lives in an adverse way, and then they're going to say, wait a minute, i didn't vote for all of this chaos. i voted for you to fix

things, not make it worse. so i think it's a matter of how the trump administration goes. about it. do they ever explain any of this and make it clear to the american people what the strategy is? if they were to do that, they'd have more political leeway if they do not and just appear to go about smashing glass. once these things affect voters adversely. that gives democrats an opening to say, i told you so. and that's when voters might actually listen to what democrats have to say about all of this. >> yeah. and, peter, it's not just the. >> smashing glass. i mean, the image of elon musk with the chain store was striking. >> because it was going to wacky image. >> but because you even over the weekend, you do have some republican senators saying, yeah, we agree with the principle of cutting government. we want, even if it means some people have to lose their jobs. but please, can they try and do it more humanely? yeah, and with elon musk's approach and you saw it in twitter and now you're seeing it replicated here humanely seems to be almost a bad word, right? i mean, the

kind of the relish with which he says things like, i'm sending us a woodchipper that the, the. >> sort of. >> cruelty, i guess, is the word is part of it. >> it's part of the whole thing. actually humane is like diversity. >> is weak, right? >> these are not these are radioactive words in this administration. >> but could that be a problem. >> for, say, russ vought, who is now the omb director of the office of management and budget director, had been in the first term. now, back in the second term, one of the architects of project 2025, he said not that long ago that he wanted federal workers to come to the office every day afraid and recognizing that they are the villains. it's, you know, look, every president comes in to some extent, you know, unhappy with the bureaucracy, and some of them run against it. right? it's politics. what this has gone further than we've ever seen, much further than reagan, who was anti-government when he came in 1981, much further than most republicans have gone. what they're saying is that they're not just lazy and inefficient. they're saying they're evil, they're bad people, and they deserve what's happening to

them. the chainsaw is what the image is meant to be now, because is there a backlash to that? sure. a lot of professionals, including professional republicans, are, you know, aghast at this. this is not the way to run a government. it's not the way to cut spending. by the way, if you really want to make a serious effort at bringing down the deficit, which is a serious issue, $2 trillion a year, this is not the way you would do it. you do something much more thoughtful, much more meaningful, and you'd go after the real big spending items. by the way, these are not the big spending items. >> all right. >> chief white house correspondent for the new york times, peter baker, thank you very much for being on this morning. his latest piece is available online right now. and senior writer for the dispatch, david drucker, thank you as well for your reporting and analysis this morning. and coming up on morning joe, we'll have the very. latest on pope francis as he continues. >> to battle pneumonia. >> and other health issues in the hospital. plus, we'll talk to two. leading medical experts about the cdc's move. >> to terminate.

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nearly 100 people so far. >> there's also. >> the escalating bird flu outbreak. >> the trump administration. fired some employees. >> who were working. >> on that. >> and are now trying. >> to. rehire those staffers. >> and the cdc is popular and effective ad campaign on the flu vaccine has been halted. >> in the. >> middle of peak flu season. joining us now. nbc news medical contributor doctor vin gupta, and physician and senior public health contributor for forbes, doctor. >> omar awan, thank. >> you, both of you, for showing up. >> and doctor gupta, we. >> we also want to speak with you both about the pope's. >> health and prognosis. >> but first, the these, you know, changes. >> that are happening. >> within our health system. what are your biggest. >> concerns moving forward? >> doctor gupta. >> well, good morning. >> you know, let's start. >> with what's happening in texas. >> i think that that's something. that's extremely. >> serious for your viewers.

>> just to have context on about. >> 1 in 5 people, if. >> they're not protected and vaccinated, have serious. >> consequences, can end up in the hospital. >> so this is not just. >> oh, you know, let's manage this at home. this has very. serious impacts for people and especially kids. their ability to have a normal childhood and to progress and have a healthy lifespan. most of the cases here are. in unvaccinated children. >> and the. question i. >> get often is what. >> should you do if. >> if you are living. >> in this situation or if you are exposed? >> and so a few things. >> that you can do. >> if you're watching this right now, please. >> pass on. >> the word. >> but if you were born. >> before. >> 1957, you have a known two. >> dose vaccine history. >> you had known prior. >> measles or. >> critically, if you had. titers confirming immunity to measles. >> you don't. >> need to necessarily speak to your medical provider about a measles shot. >> if none. >> of those apply. >> to you, please speak to your medical provider. and i've. >> been counseling patients across the spectrum. go get. >> titers for your measles

vaccine. >> doctor juan, you've written about the cdc halting what you deem as successful flu vaccination campaign. tell us why they're doing it and why it alarms you so much. >> well, i don't know why they're doing it, but it's very alarming. >> because this. >> flu vaccination. campaign is. >> critically important to educate the. >> public on why vaccination is so necessary. >> and the reason. >> why it's. >> so critical is because. >> you know, this. >> vaccination campaign teaches. >> and educates the public. >> on why vaccination. >> is critical. >> particularly. >> you know, being. >> able. >> to transform a. >> very serious. >> disease into. >> something that's very mild. >> and when you take that away from the public, the public doesn't have access. >> to these critical websites. >> these ways to. >> protect themselves and their families. so it's very alarming. >> that we're. >> taking. >> that away. >> and it comes at a time. >> when flu. is surging, and. >> we're talking about 29 million people. >> that have had the flu this season. >> we're talking. about 16,000 people. >> that have. >> already died. this comes at an extremely.

>> inopportune time. >> unfortunately, flu and covid, of course right now running rampant, we robert f kennedy jr, the head of hhs, has been a real vaccine skeptic. and we also know that the federal government now with kennedy in position, has been really. cutting back on funding for health research. and we've been talking about that these last few days. it feels like of all of the headlines that are coming out of washington right now, this is one of the most worrisome to so many people. talk to us about what it's been like in your field, your community, and what your concerns are. >> well, it's concerning. >> because we're scared and we don't know. >> and, you know, hospitals are talking about this. we don't know if we're able to fund. >> you know, a certain. >> important research personnel. >> we're talking about getting. >> rid of people that have. >> developed life saving vaccines. we're talking. about firing people that are making drug. >> discoveries. >> that are. >> potential cures for. >> cancer. >> for chronic medical diseases. we're talking about firing and letting. >> go of people that have helped contain important outbreaks like measles. >> covid. >> ebola, even in africa. so we're not safer.

>> by getting rid of. >> these people. these people have. >> safeguarded health for. >> you and i. >> and this is why this is so concerning and deeply. >> troubling for so many. >> i want to ask about the pope. pope francis remains in critical condition. this morning, the 88 year old is hospitalized with. >> double pneumonia. >> and a mild renal insufficiency. francis was admitted ten days ago after having trouble breathing, according to. >> the vatican. >> the pope remains alert and participated in holy mass yesterday. doctor gupta, we. >> know he had lung. issues earlier on in his life. >> hard. >> obviously, to make any. >> type of. assessment from afar, but just from the basics. >> that we know. >> what are your concerns here about his prognosis? >> well, you. >> know. >> on the concerning side, over. the weekends, we've been tracking this story pretty closely. >> he went from. >> needing nasal cannula. >> viewers may be familiar. just sort of plastic in. your in your

nose giving low flow oxygen just a few liters to high flow. so it looks. >> like. >> his pneumonia evolved. it got worse that he needed more support on the optimistic side. you know, and. i say this to all my patients. and to many of your viewers, if you're hungry and you're eating and you're. >> while you're sick. >> that's a. >> great sign of recovery. appetite is the best. >> sign of recovery. >> so the fact that he's eating is fantastic. >> that's a. >> really good sign. he's upright. he's talking. reports this morning from the vatican. also good sign. so i. >> am optimistic. >> he's going to get past this. but to your point, if he is medically. >> high risk. >> he has had recurrent pneumonia. >> so this is something to watch out for as we move forward. >> pulmonologist and nbc news medical contributor doctor vin gupta, thank you very much. physician and senior public health contributor for forbes, doctor o'mara. >> juan. >> thank you as well. and still ahead on morning joe, apple just announced its plans to invest more than 500 billion in the us to hire 20,000 people over the

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one (800) 403-7539. >> up next we'll go through the big headlines coming out of germany's elections amid concerns the country's far right party could gain substantial power in government. meanwhile, president trump and his top

officials in his administration continue to side with russia. as we mark three years since vladimir putin's army invaded ukraine. morning joe is back in shopify's point of sale system helps you sell at every stage of your business. with fast and secure payment. card readers you can rely on. and one place to manage it all. whatever the stage, businesses that grow grow with shopify. clinically tested. >> my hair is longer. >> thicker nutrafol. >> is life. >> changing for me. >> get growing at. >> lower.

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we've always stood with. >> the. >> good guys. we stood with churchill against hitler in world war one. we stood with the good guys. even when we've gotten it wrong. in vietnam, we were standing with the good guys against the vietcong in iraq. we were going after saddam hussein. now this president is standing with the bad guy. he's saying zelensky is the problem with zelensky with very few resources, is trying to stand up for democracy against a totalitarian butcher. >> all right. ranking member of the house intel committee, democratic congressman jim himes of connecticut, criticizing president. >> trump for. >> his comments. >> about ukraine. >> it comes as we mark the third anniversary of russia's invasion, starting the largest conflict. >> in. >> europe since world war two. >> and i will say that. >> the lead. >> editorial on the. wall street journal opinion page talks about a brief history. >> of russia's. >> broken promises and says, in effect, ukraine has absolutely no reason to trust anything that

vladimir putin has to say when it comes to the possibility of a peace deal or a ceasefire, because they point out time and time again, all the times putin has lied about ukraine. >> meanwhile, president trump. and his administration refuse to say. >> what the. >> rest of the world knows that putin is a dictator and he is responsible for this war. we'll show you the latest deflections from top members of trump's administration. plus, we'll go through a consequential election in germany and whether. >> the center. was able to hold off. >> gains from the country's far right faction. and back here at home, america's top aid agency could. essentially be shut down by. >> the. >> end of today amid more chaos within the federal government caused by an ultimatum email from elon musk. >> and yet, one of the most fascinating stories this weekend that's coming out is that top agency heads are now pushing

back in the trump administration, telling members of their own cabinets, their own agencies do not respond to elon musk's directive. >> we'll explain all of that. also ahead, we'll have the latest on the health of pope francis as he battles. >> pneumonia. >> among other things. good morning and welcome to morning joe. it is monday, february 24th. a lot to get to this morning. along with us. we have the co-host of our fourth hour, jonathan lemire. he's a contributing writer at the atlantic covering the white house and. national politics, us special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay is with us, president emeritus of the. council on foreign relations, richard haass. he's the author of the weekly newsletter home and away, available on substack. and us national editor at the financial times, ed luce, we want to begin with the overnight breaking news. a dozen leaders from the european. >> union and. canada are.

>> in kyiv this morning to mark the third anniversary of russia's invasion of ukraine. european union president ursula von der leyen and canadian. prime minister justin trudeau are among the leaders to visit kyiv. writing in a social media post about this trip. von der leyen says, quote, on the third anniversary of russia's brutal invasion. europe is in kyiv. we are in kyiv today because ukraine is europe. in this fight for survival. it is not only the destiny of ukraine that is at stake, it is europe's destiny. >> and katty kay. >> you have europe. >> obviously all aligned. >> you have most democrats in the. united states, in the senate and the house aligned, as well as a majority of republicans. it seems that donald trump is taking this lonely stand, even against the

likes of the new york post and the wall street journal editorial page, and claiming that putin is not the dictator, it's zelensky, and that somehow it is the zelenskyy that needs to give up more. more money, more land, more everything. and as donald trump kowtows to vladimir putin. >> yeah. and if those republicans were. asked in. >> a secret ballot, you. >> know. >> where they would. >> stand when it came to ukraine, and who was the dictator in this particular fight? this is a moment. >> for europe. >> a moment for europe to step up, partly because they have no choice, partly because j.d. vance made it. perfectly clear that they couldn't rely on the american security umbrella that they've relied on since the second world war. and now europeans are moving in european terms fast. we've seen and we'll talk about the elections in germany, but already the germans saying we have to move faster to help shore up ukraine. europe can't afford in this moment to have a separate identities when

it comes. this is an existential issue for europe. they cannot afford to be with president. macron visiting donald trump in the white house. and then keir starmer, not part of the eu, of course, but still part of the european continent. they need to make sure that they are not making separate visits to the white house and having separate messages put across, but having a unified message put across. and that's what this meeting in ukraine is about. this is also driven by donald trump. donald trump meeting with the russians in saudi arabia has forced europeans to work more closely together. and this is the risk for donald trump. he pushes his allies away, and if he goes too far, he could push them away for moments, perhaps when america actually needs them. so what you're seeing in europe at the moment is this reorganizing of the of the centers of power in the world that donald trump is instigating, but it could come back to bite him. >> well. >> there are again, economically, there are three spheres of power in the world.

and we say it all the time here because money talks as they say, america has its $26 trillion gdp. europe has a $26 trillion gdp. the eu does. china has about an $18 trillion gdp. you add great britain and actually you have great britain and europe having the largest gdp in the world. that is a sphere of influence that when working together with the united states and when the united. states sees that sphere of influence, those democratically elected western countries as our allies, we can do anything. so speaking of europe, mika, all eyes on elections yesterday. is there was a fear because elon musk, the vice president of the united states, donald trump, others tried to sort of place their hands on the scales of the voters. >> there is. a big. >> fear that the far right party

was going to do better than the 20% that they had been predicted to do didn't turn out that way. >> some analysts saying that even backfired. we're going to get more. on this visit to ukraine. we'll be speaking later in the show to ukraine's former foreign minister. but to joey's point, germany's christian democrats, the nation's center right party, has. >> won the. >> federal election. the party's leader, friedrich. >> merz. >> is likely to become the nation's next chancellor, with his party securing 208 seats. >> and roughly. >> 29% of the vote. the campaign's focus. >> was dominated by long standing. >> concerns over germany's economy and immigration policy. the party for current. chancellor olaf schulz is left leaning. government finished in third place with just 120 seats and 16% of the vote. the nation's far right conservative party. >> finished in. second place, winning 152 seats and roughly 21% of the vote, nearly.

>> double its margin. from last the last federal election in 2021. >> afd members. have regularly. flirted with. >> nazi slogans, diminished the holocaust and have been associated with plotting to overthrow the government. >> let's go to berlin right now and nbc. news international correspondent rob sands is there. raf? >> well, joe, good morning. >> to you. >> big headlines out of this consequential election. the first, as you said, germany is going to have a new government led by a moderate conservative. but the second is that the far right made historic gains unlike anything we have seen in this country since the second world war. so starting with that new government, as you discussed, it's going to be led by friedrich mertz. he is the head of the christian democrats, the center right party. angela merkel's old party. he is a businessman by background. he is, in many ways a pretty traditional european conservative. but he is coming

to power, as in what is a deeply not normal moment in us european relations. they have an interesting tradition in this country, guys. immediately after the exit polls come out, all the party leaders go into a single tv studio. they sit around one table and they have a kind of round table discussion. and mertz was very, very blunt in that discussion. it's known as the elephant round. he said that it is very clear the trump administration does not care about european security, and that as the next leader of germany, europe's largest economy, a key member of nato, it is going to be his absolute top priority to strengthen europe so that it can forge an independent path from the united states. these are america's european allies saying they need to strike out on their own. he discussed the fact that elon musk and jd vance pretty openly supporting the far right in this

election, and he said that the election interference from washington has been as shameful as the election interference from moscow. so pretty stark words from the next leader of germany as we talked about the far right, the alternative for germany, the afd winning 20% of the vote. it is about in line with the exit polls. there had been some concerns they might do even better than that, but that is still one german voter in five casting their ballots for the far right. this is a party whose most extreme members have talked about stripping citizenship from germans who have overseas heritage. one of their most extreme leaders, a german court has ruled, can be legally described as a fascist based on his positions. so they were in a celebratory mood last night. it is not looking like they are going to have any role in government. birx was very clear he is going to uphold the so-called firewall, the

principle that the mainstream parties do not cooperate with the far right. that is despite the vice president calling for that firewall to be torn down. meretz is now heading into several weeks of coalition negotiations. analysts here say the most likely outcome is that he will go into government with the main center left party, the social democrats. that's likely to provide a pretty stable government for germany for the next couple of years. but those same analysts are saying it could be storing up trouble for the next election in 2029, when you have the two mainstream parties in government together. it may be that voters who are dissatisfied feel that they have no choice but to turn once again to the extremes. >> all right. >> nbc's raf sanchez, live from berlin. thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. i will say one thing that that has changed. you actually have the christian democrats who have taken a tougher line on immigration, something that hasn't happened in the eu for well over a decade. it's important to remember everything is context. it's important to

remember that angela merkel allowed millions, well over a million immigrants into syria, many with absolutely no screening at all. it caused serious political turmoil in that country, and it led, as we predicted, here for well over a decade. it led to the rise of a far right party. >> i will. >> say, though. yesterday it does appear, though, that the center did hold the grand coalition still in place. the center right and the center left will be going together. and i understand afd makes the big headlines, but they were sitting at 20%, expecting to do far better after elon musk basically told them, never mind about the holocaust, forget about your past, don't be guilty about any of that. then jd vance came over talking about tearing down a firewall. well, i will say it. appears that german voters responded to those messages about as effectively as american voters would respond to german

politicians going to peoria and telling them how to vote in their american elections. >> yeah. >> i think that's a pretty. >> good way. of putting it. in fact, arguably. >> if you see the. >> turnout. >> which was it was a high. >> a recent high in. >> germany. >> 85% of german. >> voters voted yesterday. >> compare that to the recent high in us presidential elections of. 66% in 2020. then arguably, elon musk really stimulated everyone else. >> the anti. >> afd vote to come out and vote and limit. it to that 1 in 5 ceiling that it's been at for some time. >> look. >> it's still, by german postwar standards, a pretty. sobering result to see not just the far right get 1 in 5, but the far left surging as well. so put. >> together. >> extreme parties are now about 30% of the german vote, and they. >> used.

>> to be nowhere. >> but relative to where other democracies are going, including the united states. nearly half of america voted for trump. this is a moderate center, is holding election. and i think that the change in chancellors from olaf. schultz to friedrich merz is extremely good news in terms of what kathy was just saying. if we want. europe to move fast because he's very. >> clear, he. >> said, we've got no time for the usual german weeks and months of coalition negotiations. the world. >> will not. >> wait on us. we've got to move quickly and we've got to. we've got to build up our defenses against russia. that's essentially his message. >> well, and. >> i will say, jonathan also, he is a conservative. he is again, he's taken a strong stance on immigration, not a radical stance on immigration, but the

type of stance that the mushy middle in europe has refused to take over the past decade and has allowed right wing governments to rise in one country after another. talking about firewalls, his views on immigration appear to be a firewall against, again, lending power to the far right. he also, as a conservative and a guy that's been involved in business for a very long time, is going to be in a position to address a real problem in germany. and that is right now just an economy that is, is, is really stumbling and struggling along. germany needs a kick start, and there are many people who believe this center right politician, the center right leader. if chancellor, the center right chancellor can do that. >> yeah. deeply sluggish economy for some time now. one final note about the musk and vance role here. there are some polls of a month or so back that suggest they would do better than they did yesterday. now, still again, a noteworthy

result, to be sure, but it seems like musk and vance didn't really help and in some ways may have even hurt some of the results. but richard haass, you still think we were talking as you sat down here, that it is an alarming number, that that far right party received 1 in 5. so talk to us a little bit more about that, but also the sort of the rightward shift here we're seeing in germany throughout europe and how it's going to deal with the united states. >> well, two things to me, jonathan, were really interesting. just quickly to put it aside, markets in that so-called elephant talk, you know, after the election, to be so critical of the united states, what we're essentially seeing after 80 years, you can almost hear and see the tectonic plates shifting. the transatlantic era is ending. what donald trump has done is essentially trump 2.0, a signal to europeans that america is a very different country for having reelected donald trump and the atlantic alliance, which was an assumption for europeans that the united states was there for them. and by the way, these negotiations with ukraine over minerals reinforce this. it used

to be the united states helped europe because it was good for us. now the argument seems to be we'll only help you if we get something in return. so all of this is shaking up europe. that's one big thing to me. the other is, is the german result. about a third of the germans voted far left and far right. so you've got this coalition that's going to happen, the center right and the center left. we'll see how well they can. they can govern. it's not clear to me they're going to have the political ability to raise defense spending nearly as much as it needs to be done. but what worries me, though, if you break down some of the vote, younger people really quite supportive of the more extreme parties. my own sense is that if germany doesn't succeed in these few years, by the time of the next election, it could look a lot more like britain and france. and by that i mean very large, far right and far left parties. the center gets hollowed out. so i don't want to say this is the last chance for germany, but this is a big moment where the merits can build a coalition that succeeds and can actually govern. and if they can, great. if they can't, the consequences

for germany and for europe would be really, really profound. >> coming up, a warning about the far right that's been years in the making. joe has been sounding the alarm for the better part of a decade. and we'll show you that supercut when morning joe comes right back. >> legal and, doug. >> you'll be back. >> emus can't help people. >> customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. >> you're just a flightless bird. >> you know. >> he's a dreamer, frank. >> okay. hi, and, doug. well, i'll be that bird. really? did it. >> only pay for what you need? >> liberty. >> liberty, liberty, liberty. the guy. >> made a left into the river. >> daddy's home. >> hey, you got that thing? >> yeah, i got that thing. throw it in the fridge. oh. >> what's this? you keep. >> dog food in the fridge. >> it's not. >> dog food, it's fresh pet.

we'll meet real veggies from my boy junior. >> for disrespect. >> but what. >> but what. >> are we doing here? with hotels and vacation rentals, booking.com has something for everyone. seashells! you got anything more boutique? oui, oui, oui. right this way... now we're talking. what about something more family friendly? oooh! maybe a resort with a waterpark... [water splash] or somewhere less family-friendly? yep! one vegas hotel for the bride to be. what if we hate everything? we have free cancellation. find exactly what you're booking for. booking.com booking.yeah >> and jr to the point you were making earlier. >> i mean, on this show. >> it's. >> not just. >> a knee. >> jerk reaction. moment to

moment. >> for a. >> decade now. you've been warning. >> on this. platform right here. >> about the potential backlash that could come from the european union's. lax immigration. >> laws, and. >> how often these. >> laws have led and will continue to lead to a rise. >> in the new far right in europe. >> take a look. >> obviously, none of us here, elise, are sitting. here excited. >> about the emergence of far right nationalist parties. at the same time, they didn't rise out. of out. >> of, of, you know, dust. they they rose because the eu has had disastrous open border policies for. >> years now. >> i guess the bigger issue here that. >> we need. >> to talk about then, is the fact that europe. >> is letting us down there. >> they are. >> letting us down with their porous eu borders. >> they are. >> letting us down. i mean, angela merkel gets on the front of time magazine as person of the year last year for basically

an extraordinarily reckless policy that makes. >> everybody feel good, but allows refugees just. aren't processed properly to flood into europe. i haven't. >> understood why mainstream political parties have not given the voters of europe a choice when it comes to immigration, but it's an all or nothing. you either support open borders and somebody be able to being able to get in and turkey and move around freely and blow up something in london, or you're a racist. >> those are the two choices voters. >> have been given. and it's no secret why. people like le pen have actually gotten a following among voters who were mainstream ten years ago, because there's never a center ground, because a politician in germany can't take a center ground, or france can't take a center ground on immigration and talk about culture, talk about borders without being called a neo nazi. then you just. say the entire

pitch will. say to the far right. >> it echoes what i've. >> been saying. >> about. european leaders for. >> about five years. >> where they are so absolutist. >> on open borders. >> they are so. absolutist about. >> letting mass flow of immigrants into their country that. if you don't do. >> that. >> then you're a neo-nazi. >> there's never. >> been a. middle ground in europe over the past five years, which is naturally. >> led to the sort of right. >> wing nationalist governments growing in europe. it seems. >> to me you go back to 2015, the refugee crisis spilling out of syria. >> so many of. >> the dramatic changes. >> that have come in. >> across europe have come in part as a reaction to an immigration system that allows somebody to come into one eu. >> country and. >> go across borders. >> of. >> of all of them. anybody that.

>> suggested that having an absolutist view in the eu, where somebody could come in one country and go across the entire continent of europe. anybody that suggested that that might not be wise was branded a right wing extremist. this absolutist. view of warned for. >> a. decade would lead to. >> far right parties becoming more powerful in europe. >> so how does that all connect with what we saw in germany yesterday? >> well, i think in a couple of ways, first of all, and those warnings were going back even before 2016. it's something. we've been warning for a very long time. yeah. i mean you can look at it for, for you notice the hair. my hair changes radically year in and year out. it loses. and richard haass is stay the same. but i think, though, you're actually starting to see a reaction to it, you're starting to see a reaction. you've seen it over the past year. they were a decade late, richard, but you actually have started. >> to see a shift. >> let's say, with macron. you you certainly do have in this new german government, the

german government, who enraged a lot of people by our a german leader who who enraged a lot of people by actually going through that firewall and working with afd to pass tougher immigration laws, because that's the only way he can do it. i think it's going to they're going to be able to do it now with this grand coalition. but, you know, if. if you're a german voter and angela merkel lets in over a million syrians without checking their security and in no vetting process whatsoever. and this was basically europe's approach for 15 years. and if anybody questioned anything, they were immediately called a nazi. it's just not hard to predict what's going to come of that. the question is, are european leaders like mers responding now in a way that pushes back against that right wing extremism? >> they're beginning to, joe. but, you know, europe still has open borders within the eu. so if any single country in europe has openness, it affects the

other two dozen countries. so i still think europe has a way to go. it hasn't quite come to terms with immigration. it's also many countries france, germany, britain in particular has had real problems with integration. it was you know, merkel was rather sanguine about it. but i think the idea that you can absorb large numbers in short amounts of time and have them learn the language and get comfortable with the culture has proven to be not quite true. and by the way, it's impossible to have this country, this conversation, joe, and not think about the parallels here, about the implications of open borders in the first few years of the biden administration. i would say as much as anything, a responsible for donald trump getting getting reelected. i think it's pretty, pretty straightforward. >> and if anybody would like us to. >> pull up clips from 2122 issuing those warnings here in america. >> let's not. >> we could be glad. we'll be glad to do that as well, because the warnings were there, and it was obvious there as well though. but again, mika, what you're what you're starting to see though, is you are starting to see some european leaders

moderate a bit. yeah. and, and we have seen the impact in america and the impact from the last election. i will say though, there is a huge difference between the united states and france. a huge difference between the united states and germany. we are a nation of immigrants. we are a nation that was built on immigrants coming to this country over the past 250 years. it's just not the case with germany. it's not the case with france. and when you bring in a million plus immigrants from syria overnight, it's going to have this sort of impact again. sure. merkel got time's person of the year. it probably be much better if there had been a more reasonable, rational approach that understood german culture or french culture, or even or even british culture. it's far different than the united states. we are a melting pot, and even we had trouble

absorbing culturally the images that we saw in 21 and 22. >> all right. still ahead on morning joe. as we mentioned, today marks three years since russia began its full scale invasion of ukraine. this comes as some top trump administration officials will. not admit that moscow was the aggressor. we'll show you those new remarks and be joined by ukraine's former foreign minister. >> he's that the show. >> is just a show. >> actually. >> you don't need. >> vision to. >> do most things. >> in life. >> yes, i'm. >> legally blind. >> and yes. >> i'm responsible for the. >> user interface. >> data visualization. if i. >> can see it and understand it quickly. anyone can. making complex things clear. that's how

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we listened. >> i'm open. >> minded about. >> being close minded. from the. lowest lows. >> i was. >> promised a new era. what happened to the. lowest high? >> from fixing inflation after it was already fixed. to fighting the nationwide crime wave that he made up. >> you won the election. >> which means he's a great guy. >> who's right? go get him, tiger. tiger. >> comedy central's the daily. if you have generalized myasthenia gravis, picture what life could look like with... vyvgart hytrulo, a subcutaneous injection that takes about 30 to 90 seconds. for one thing, could it mean more time for you? vyvgart hytrulo can improve daily abilities and reduce muscle weakness with a treatment plan that's personalized to you. do not use vyvgart hytrulo if you have a serious allergy to any of its ingredients. it can cause serious allergic reactions like trouble breathing and decrease in blood pressure leading to fainting and allergic reactions such as rashes, swelling under the skin, shortness of breath, and hives. the most common side effects are respiratory and urinary tract infections, headache,

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the best of msnbc all in one place. sign up for msnbc daily at msnbc. com. go beyond the headlines with the msnbc app. >> read. >> listen and watch. live breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere. go beyond the what? to understand the why. download the msnbc app now. president trump's first 100 days. watch. >> i'm going to be here five days a week again. >> read and listen. >> staying up half the night reading executive orders. >> for this defining time in the second trump presidency. stay with msnbc. >> i don't need. >> to get into the characterization of we know who invaded who. we understand the stakes of this game. the america, more than any other country in the world, has invested in helping ukraine defend itself. now it's time for peace. and that's what the president is dedicated to. so standing here and saying, you're. >> good. >> you're bad, you're a dictator. you're not a dictator. >> you invaded. >> you didn't. it's not useful.

it's not productive. and so president trump isn't getting drawn into that in unnecessary ways. and as a result, we're closer to peace today than ever before. >> but fair to say. russia. >> attacked unprovoked into ukraine. three years ago tomorrow. >> fair to say it's a. >> very complicated situation. >> can you. >> acknowledge that. >> russia is the aggressor here? >> well, you know what? who would you rather. have and go toe. >> to toe with. >> the likes of vladimir. >> putin, kim jong un, she or. >> anyone else. >> joe biden. >> or donald trump? >> he's the dealmaker in chief. >> he's the commander. >> in chief. >> and it's only. because his. >> of his strength. >> that we're even in this position. >> and president trump's. >> own. words have been. >> that russia invaded. >> a neighbor under bush, under obama and. >> under biden. >> but not him. >> it didn't happen his. >> first term, and he's going to bring it to an end. >> his second term. >> the war. >> irrespective of who started. >> it, needs. >> to end. >> too many people's. lives have

been expunged. >> as a result of it, and. >> it just doesn't. >> make. >> sense to the president. >> he wants to be. >> the peacemaking president. >> peace through strength. and i don't blame him. i actually concur. >> right down the line. >> with his. >> thought process. >> around this. that's one two. >> that the war didn't. >> need to happen. it was provoked. >> it doesn't necessarily mean it was provoked. >> by the russians. there were all kinds of conversations. >> back then about ukraine. >> joining nato. the president has spoken about this. that didn't need to happen. it basically became a threat to the russians. >> and so. >> we have to deal with that fact. >> and those are real. >> facts on the ground here. >> trump officials. >> refusing to say that russia was the aggressor in this war. trump officials refusing to say that putin is the one who's a dictator, not zelenskyy and witkoff, actually, in an event just a few days prior, said that in his meetings in moscow, he was working on developing a, quote, friendship with vladimir putin. meanwhile, earlier you

heard president trump mention the u.s. proposal for ukraine to give america sweeping access to its valuable minerals, including titanium and lithium. president zelensky, rejecting the framework of that plan that would see kyiv hand over half of its resource revenues to a u.s. controlled fund until it reaches $500 billion. zelensky, meanwhile, said yesterday that he's willing to resign from his post in exchange for peace in ukraine or nato membership, if that's what it takes. joining us now, the former foreign minister of ukraine, dmytro kuleba. he is a senior fellow at the harvard belfer center. mr. minister, thank you so much for joining us this morning. we really appreciate it. let's start there. there's so much to get to, but let's start there with that deal that president zelensky to this point has said it does not work for kyiv. tell us more about his objections. and is there some sort of middle ground, or is the ukraine government open to some sort of structure there, where some form of these rare minerals would be

exchanged to washington in exchange for continuing aid? >> good morning. >> well. >> there are two main. >> objective objections coming from ukraine with. >> regard to the deal. >> the first one is that. in principle. >> it turns. us assistance that was already delivered to ukraine. >> in, in. >> the form of a grant. of unconditional support into a loan. >> that ukraine has to pay back. i mean. >> this, this change. this would. >> not stand in the in the us court for three years. the assistance. >> was provided and. >> then you all of a. >> sudden are. >> told that this was a loan that you have to pay back. the second problem is that kyiv. >> does not really see what it. gets in. return for the. >> deal, because the trump administration. >> is making the point what ukraine must. >> give to the united. >> states without actually specifying what. >> how ukraine. >> benefits from it. and zelenskyy, rightly so, tries.

>> to negotiate the best. >> conditions for the country. this is where. >> we are. but in. >> principle it could be a good deal if it was. >> made in in an appropriate, responsible. >> way and. >> not under duress as it is the case now. >> mr. kuleba, it sounds that one of the appropriate responsible ways might be. >> with. >> some kind of a security guarantee for ukraine in exchange for those minerals, but president trump is very keen not to give those. do you think that ukraine could rely on europe to give those kind of security guarantees? do you hear from your european partners that they are moving faster and aggressively enough so that they could be in a position to shore up ukraine's security future? >> let's be clear on. definitions here. >> a security guarantee in the most in. >> the in. >> the classic way of understanding it. is when someone is. >> ready to fight for. you and when. >> if. you are attacked. this is what nato, for example, is like. no, i do not think. >> there is any single.

>> european country that is ready. >> to fight. >> along shoulder to. >> shoulder with ukrainian. >> soldiers against russia. >> but there. >> is plenty of commitment. >> that has emerged. >> that have emerged recently in. europe to significantly. >> step up their support. >> to ukraine. and europe can do a lot. >> it has. >> defense industrial base. >> it has 300 million russian frozen. assets and it has commitment. and most. >> importantly, it finally. >> has the understanding that the united states abandoned europe. >> so this is actually an even stronger motivating motivation for them to act swiftly. the only question. >> is how. swift can they be? >> coming up, a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning, including a warning to washington from one of the world's. richest men. what warren buffett told shareholders when morning joe comes right

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paid more in corporate income tax than even the american tech titans. berkshire now holds more than $330 billion in cash after selling off much of its apple and bank of america. >> stock in. >> cash right now. >> the past. >> year, he's. >> gone very conservative. he did it right before the tech the.com bubble. yeah. and was criticized until of course the bubble burst. >> he was. >> right then. and many fear that he's right now to be hoarding cash and staying out of the market. >> and the cost of coffee is soaring around the world. by some measures, the global price has more than doubled over the past year. climate change has disrupted production from the americas to east africa, with rising temperatures and changing rain patterns. retail coffee prices are expected to rise in a pronounced way during the first quarter of this year. coming up, an update on the health of pope

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100 days, alex wagner travels to the story to talk with people most impacted by the policies. >> were you there on january? >> i was there on january 6th. >> did it surprise you that you were fired, given how resolutely nonpartisan you have been? >> and for. >> more in-depth reporting, follow her podcast. >> trumpland. >> with alex wagner. >> welcome back. as we've been discussing this morning, today marks three years since russia launched its unprovoked, full scale, full past fall, the wall street journal estimated that over a million troops inr killed in the conflict, according to the un refugee agency, nearly 7 million refugees from ukraine have been recorded globally since february 2022 to honor ukraine. today marks the release of a new book titled portraits of ukraine a nation at war, featuring 300 images across ten chapters covering ukrainian culture.

recipient of the distinguished foreign service award, gregory slayton takes readers into the past three years in ukraine and beyond, with exclusive contributions from president zelensky as well as former u.s. vice president mike pence. and coauthor gregory slayton. joins us now from kyiv with more. gregory, good morning. thank you for joining us today. it's obviously a somber moment there in ukraine. talk to us about the origins of this book. what did you hope to accomplish? >> well, my family and i have had. >> the. >> great privilege of helping. >> to deliver. >> millions of pounds of relief supplies since the unprovoked russian invasion. and we noted all the russian propaganda, including, you know, nato started the. >> war. >> ukraine started the. >> war. >> ukraine's closing down churches. all this stuff is completely untrue. so we decided. >> to do this book. >> we started about two years

ago. we had a team in ukraine, a team in poland, a team in the united states. and we've documented very, very carefully not just the russian invasion, but the history of ukraine, the culture, the language, the people stretching back thousands of years. no, ukraine is not a state of the russian federation like kentucky is part of the united states. it's a separate independent country and has been for a long, long time. >> and gregory, as you've been speaking, we're going to show images from the book at first, some pre-war, now some far more harrowing ones that have happened after the conflict began. there's been, as we've been discussing at length the last few weeks on this show, suddenly notes of ambiguity here from the united states and from the white house as to who was the aggressor in this conflict, what exactly russian russia has done. but talk to us about some of the images you have, you and your colleagues have documented in the book showing russia's aggression and at times, war crimes. >> well, that's. >> right, war crimes have been

widespread. some of it has been extremely well documented, others not so much. we have documented over 500 churches of all different denominations that have been shut down, burned out, or the pastors or priests taken prisoner in the occupied ukrainian territories. so this idea that there's somehow not freedom of religion in. >> ukraine. >> but there's freedom of religion in russia, that's another kremlin talking point that just isn't true. now, you mentioned earlier in the show that 7 million plus ukrainian civilians or refugees, actually, our numbers are over 10 million. if you include ukrainian civilians who have lost loved ones, who have lost jobs, who have lost homes, it's a gigantic number for a nation that was only 40 million at the beginning of the russian invasion. there has been a huge amount of suffering here. >> so, gregory, we showed some of the images there clearly from the front lines or the aftermath of the conflict between the

military. so talk to us a little bit about what you see day to day among the civilians, just your average ukrainian who has had their life fundamentally changed because of actual russian armament, or at least just the fear that comes with it over these last three years. >> exactly right. it's been a long time, and i think the ukrainian people are extraordinarily brave. they're tough, they're strong. i think they're great allies for us. remember that they have suffered all the casualties, half a million killed and wounded, something like that. and how many united states military and two of our children are u.s. military officers? so i speak from the heart here. zero u.s. military casualties here. everybody wants peace. nobody wants peace more than ukrainian people. but to bow the knee of vladimir putin and become again part of what is effectively his dream of reestablished soviet

union. nobody wants that. and certainly not here. not in poland, not in lithuania, nobody. >> the new book, portraits of ukraine a nation at war, is available now. diplomat gregory slayton. gregory, thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. let me just mention all the profits from the book. >> go to. >> good ukrainian charities. so i do hope your audience will reach out and get it and be a blessing to ukraine as well. thank you so much. >> that's such. >> an important note today, especially on the three year anniversary of the beginning of this war. thank you again. yes, indeed. >> up next. >> here on morning joe, we'll bring you the latest on elon musk's email ultimatum to government employees and the pushback that's coming from many agency leaders. also ahead, we'll tell you about the former fox news personality, who is now second in command at the fbi, and the concerns coming from within the building. keep it on, within the building. keep it on, morning, it all started with a small business idea. it's a pillow with a speaker in it!

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>> a week ago, musk. >> tweeted out this table. >> showing. >> millions of people in social security's database over the age of 100, claiming maybe twilight. >> is real. >> and there are a lot of vampires collecting. >> social security. >> laughing emojis. >> because he has got an incredible sense of humor. trump then amplified. >> those claims. >> at a press conference. >> when i saw the social security numbers, i said, wow, that's really something. so we have let's just go above 100 years old. we have millions and millions of people over 100 years old. everybody knows that's not so. people from 150 years old to 159 years old. 1,345,000. these are in the by the way, these are in the computer files. these are this is what they do. well they're super. i asked elon, who are these doge people? he said they're super brilliant computer people and they love the country. >> okay.

>> he is. clearly reading that for the first time because no one. >> says. >> wow, that's really something when they know what they're talking about. you say, wow, that's really something. >> when your. >> kid. >> hands you a drawing of your. >> family and you can't decipher where you end and your dog begins. >> all right. welcome to the fourth hour of morning joe at 6 a.m. on the west coast, 9 a.m. in the east. jonathan lemire and katty kay still with us. and we begin this hour with the pushback from the heads of top federal agencies to an ultimatum from elon musk. musk told federal workers they must email a list justifying their work by midnight tonight or resign. but a number of trump's cabinet secretaries are telling the workers not to comply. nbc news senior white house correspondent garrett hake has the latest. >> top trump adviser elon musk is facing new resistance from inside the administration today. over an ultimatum. >> to. >> more than 2 million federal. >> workers.

>> delivered in. an email from the office of personnel management on saturday. the email, titled what did you. do last. >> week. >> asked workers to respond by midnight tonight with five bullet points. >> detailing what they accomplished. >> the move sparked widespread confusion, with agency heads issuing conflicting guidance to workers. some agencies, including the. >> fbi. >> state department and defense department. told employees either. >> to delay. responding or not. >> respond at all, while others, like the department of health and human. >> services. >> asked workers to respond by tonight's deadline. compounding the. >> chaos. >> musk posted. >> on x. >> said he. >> was acting. >> on the president's instructions. >> adding. >> quote. >> failure to respond will be taken. >> as a resignation. though the. >> opm email did not include. >> that threat. >> democrats blasting the email. >> these are illegal. they are uncalled for. >> and it's. >> just another example. >> that trump and musk have. >> no. >> idea what they're doing. >> some republicans. >> say they're skeptical about the directive. >> i don't know how. >> that's necessarily feasible. >> obviously, a lot of federal

employees are under a union contract. >> at town halls across the country. growing outrage over. musk and his department of. government efficiency aiming to slash the federal workforce. >> when are you going to wrest control as the congress back from the executive and stop hurting your constituents? >> president trump. >> speaking at a conservative gathering on saturday, defended musk. >> people said, well, what official position does he have? he said patriot. >> but some. >> republicans are urging. >> musk to reconsider his tone. >> please put a dose of. compassion in this. these are real people. all this following a shakeup at the pentagon on friday with president trump firing the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, general c-q brown jr, along with. >> several top. officers from. >> the navy and air. force and top military lawyers. >> nothing about. >> this is unprecedented. the president. deserves to. >> pick his key. >> national security and military. advisory team. okay. >> that was garrett hake.

>> with that report. >> garrett, with that report. i mean, you know, jonathan lemire, we have had pushback. and so much of what we've seen over the past month. is unprecedented, just like we had. >> the secretary. >> of defense also in a clip that we played earlier today, going when trying to assign blame for the russian invasion of ukraine, said, it's complicated. no it's not. it's not complicated. russian tanks roll into ukraine. they say they're going to take over the country in three days, or that was a plan to be in kyiv within three days. not complicated. what is getting a little complicated, though, is what federal employees need to do here. i mean, let let's just look back. over the past couple of weeks, we've seen republicans getting hammered in town hall meetings. we've also seen members of the senate. we've seen republican members of the senate, republican members of the house starting to express real concerns. we saw it right there. we've seen we've seen

people on fox news talking about their regrets that you have veterans that served in the united states armed forces for 20 years. they come home, they go to work for the pentagon. and the elon musk with his chainsaw approach, you know, kicking vets out after a lifetime of service for this country. you've got. air safety concerns with the faa and the tsa having these random sloppy cuts. and those are the words, again in that town hall meeting, the sloppy cuts. of course, you have health concerns, the bird flu, you know, about that, where they're trying to desperately get people back that that know how to take care of that. same thing with nuclear safety and nuclear. nuclear security. they're desperately trying to get people back that that they fired food safety. >> the fda. >> desperately trying to get people back there again. >> this is so sloppy the. >> way elon musk is handling

this. if anybody thinks that, this is what i mean, people voted for real. >> do they. >> really vote. for firing federal employees that took care of nuclear safety, that took care of. >> air safety? >> i don't think so. i didn't hear i didn't hear that promise. >> whatever mandate donald trump came to office with does not include, it would seem, suspending and slashing medical research, important research that impacts cancer research, disease research that impacts anyone who lives in this country, whether you live in a red state or blue state. just adding to the list, joe, that you just outlined there. and we are seeing a moment here where some again, some on the right are expressing worry that they've gone too far, they've gone too fast, that the tech, the ethos that musk took with him to, to twitter or to tesla or to spacex, where you go fast, you break things and if needed, you fix it afterwards. well,

that's different when it's the federal government. and these are real people's average americans lives being touched upon. and now we'll have to see what this pushback from these agencies, where that goes from here. some of that may be simply the director of the agencies wanting to preserve their own ability to cut staff, to fire people, to test their loyalties. we'll have to see. but it is interesting because it was a public rebuke to musk, sort of the first one he's received since taking this new position. we'll have to see how it plays in the days ahead. meanwhile, another headline from last night is that president trump announced that former fox news personality dan bongino will be second in command to lead the fbi. this is the latest in a series of trump's controversial picks for high profile law enforcement roles. trump named bongino as deputy fbi director yesterday to note that job is traditionally held by a career fbi agent. in fact, i believe this is the first time a political appointee got that post. he is a former secret service agent, an nypd officer,

though he has never served in the fbi. as a pro-trump podcaster, he has advanced a number of baseless theories about the bureau he is set to lead. the appointment does not require senate confirmation, but it's already receiving real backlash. here's how one former fbi official reacted to bongino's new role, saying in part, quote, this is really concerning. any hope that cash meaning cash bail, the fbi director could be steered by having experienced leaders around him is out the window. we now have two conspiracy theorists and election deniers running our premier law enforcement and intelligence agency. that is beyond problematic and catty. bongino has repeatedly on his podcast calling for the dismissal of any agent who had anything to do with some of the trump investigations, including the lawful with a warrant fbi search of mar a lago that turned up all those classified documents a couple summers ago. but he's also cut from the same cloth. it

would appear as kash patel, a true loyalist who embraces really sort of fringe beliefs about the deep state, about law enforcement, and about enacting retribution in the name of donald trump. >> yeah. this is the man. >> who. >> during the. >> kavanaugh hearings, said. >> my entire. >> life right now. >> is about owning the libs. >> and seems to. >> have carried on that. >> proposition throughout his career. he has wide influence. he's got one of the top podcasts in the united states. millions of people follow him. the agents association, the fbi agents association, had actually wanted a career agent. >> they wanted. >> somebody who had. >> been. an active. >> fbi agent to take this position, but they clearly have been overruled. so between kash patel and bonini, you've got you really do have. i am trying to think of another. agency where you have two such trump loyalists at the very top in positions one and two. and of course, the impacts of that. then on law enforcement, we've already seen the breakdown of the firewall between the trump white house and the justice

department. the fbi will play a critical role in the implementation of whatever it is that donald trump wants to have done in terms of law enforcement. >> all right. overseas, germany's christian democrats, the nation's center right party, has won that country's federal election. the party's leader, friedrich merz, is likely to become the nation's next chancellor, with his party securing 208 seats and roughly 29% of the vote. the campaign's focus was dominated by long standing concerns over germany's economy and immigration policy. current chancellor olaf schultz is left leaning. party finished in third place with just 120 seats and 16% of the vote. the nation's far right afd party finished in second place, winning 152 seats and roughly 21% of the vote, nearly double its margin from the last federal

election in 2021. let's bring in former editor of the financial times, lionel barber, live from brussels, where the eu holds most of its key meetings, and staff writer at the atlantic. >> graham wood. >> is liz piece, posted just before the election, is entitled germany's anti extremist firewall is collapsing. >> thank you all both so much for being with us. lionel, why don't we start with you? you have the most fascinating shot of all. yeah. and you were also in brussels, the de facto capital of europe. you know, there was a. belief that perhaps because musk, vance and others were leaning in and trying to support afd, that they would do much better than the 20% that they've been projecting for the past several weeks. i'm wondering, is this another example, as we've seen in france with the last two elections of macron, where the center is held, we have that centrist grand coalition holding things together in germany for the next

few years. what are your thoughts? >> well. >> the center has barely. >> held because. >> the cdu, as you say, didn't. >> get over. 30% of. >> the vote. >> it's a disaster. for olive, the bookmaker, spreadsheet guy schulz, the chancellor. >> his party center. >> left, got around 15. >> or. >> 16% of the vote. and the hard right, they doubled their vote. share compared. to four. years ago. now. >> that means. >> that the. >> afd. >> backed by. >> musk and i. >> think more than. >> a. >> few others. >> in the. >> trump administration, are now. >> the opposition. however, here's the sliver. >> of good. news there is likely to be. >> a centrist. >> what they call a. >> grand coalition. >> between center right. >> center left. >> and sort of right. >> which will. >> keep out the afd. >> something to watch. >> will elon musk say that there should be that the afd.

>> deserves to come into government? >> that would be a shocker. >> well. >> i it looks. >> like elon musk interfering and germany's elections were worked about as effectively. as a german politician trying to tell people in peoria, illinois, how to vote. i'm wondering also what we're looking at. good news here. i'm wondering whether the business community may think it's good news that a pro-business german leader is now in charge, because the german economy is right now struggling as much as it is number one. and number two. we played a clip earlier in this show of ten years of warnings from morning joe that that. the eu's immigration policy was too lax and it would lead to the rise of far right parties. i'm wondering if mers is not filling

that void now, not being a far right conservative, but at least speaking to the concerns of germans after, you know, merkel brought in a million syrian refugees without even screening most of them. >> well, joe. >> you. >> did write about. >> the handling of immigration. and the government. >> actually. >> in germany. >> has already. >> suspended schengen. >> the free movement of people within the eu and into germany. >> and there. >> are going to. >> be much tighter immigration measures and the success of. >> the hard. >> right is definitely due to. >> fears about. >> immigration and also crime. >> now, to answer your question, we're not. >> in. >> washington here. >> where president. >> trump has got total fealty for the moment. >> from the republican party. he's got all. >> his nominees through. >> you were talking. >> about kash patel. >> and others. >> tulsi gabbard with germany.

>> mr. >> matt chancellor. >> is going to have. >> to negotiate a coalition. and that will be if it's with the center left. >> what the. >> business community are looking for is. >> can he. actually push through economic reforms? can he. >> get a release on the debt. >> brake. >> which is like a. balanced budget amendment? >> that's a law. >> which is preventing investment. >> i mean, joe. >> mika. >> the german trains don't even run on time as well as the british. we're in a terrible state regarding german infrastructure. >> well, the trains have always been. of course, the line there. graham. you you were covering for a while now, the rise of afd. in fact, you spent time in germany. you even attended at least one of their rallies. you did a deep dive. it's on the atlantic site now, a must read. tell us a little bit about what you learned there. and the party's new and growing role in

that country. yeah. >> the main thing i learned was that. >> the afd. >> was aiming its. >> fire at the cdu at. >> the center. right. i mean. >> the afd was. >> saying the. center right, which just won this election. >> has to. >> be destroyed. >> totally dismantled. >> that they invoked. >> trump, they invoked elon. >> musk. >> and they said they they led the way. >> they destroyed. >> the gop as it existed before. and we're going. >> to do. >> the same thing. >> to the cdu now, the cdu. >> having won. >> it looks like a victory for them. >> but the. >> afd also measures their victories in different ways, too. so getting 1 in 5 german voters for them was a huge victory because. >> it meant that they. >> couldn't be ignored. >> in the future. so what? they might be shut out of government, they're very likely to be shut out of government. but what they were afraid of was. >> that they would have. >> a showing that would be. >> poor enough. >> that they. >> could actually be be. >> be banned. >> as a party. >> be investigated by law enforcement. >> and what they've. >> got is. >> a showing that makes it. impossible for. >> them to be completely ignored politically. >> so, graham, talk about the people you met at the afd rally. i mean, there's a kind of a

slightly easy. >> language in which. >> this is the. >> inheritors of the fascist party and is racist. >> anti islam, homophobic. >> the people. you met and talked to, how did they feel about that perception of them? >> they were. >> as sincerely offended. >> by it. >> you know, there. >> have been many cases where. >> afd supporters. >> afd members. have said things that. >> charitably. >> we could say. >> were neutral about the history of germany and about the ss. >> so the. >> afd has. >> quite a lot to answer for. >> at most of the. >> rallies that i went. >> to. >> and i went to some of the strongholds of the afd and went to their political. >> rallies. >> there was. no there. >> were no racial slurs that were used. there was more anger directed toward actually toward the center right politicians of germany than toward immigrants. but look, this is a party that that that adopted as a slogan, alice for deutschland.

>> alice is the name. >> of the. leader of the party. alice for deutschland is also. >> the one of the mottos. >> of the stormtroopers. >> of. >> nazi germany. >> so they. >> seem to kind of encourage a bit of ambiguity. >> some dog whistles. >> some understanding. that even if we're going to be personally not. >> racist. >> personally not. >> offended. >> in many cases. >> the party as a whole is okay with some of the iconography, some of. >> the symbolism of nazism. >> and that's a very. >> that's a very. >> unsettling thing. >> to hear. >> when spoken, especially. >> in german. >> so graham, with that, that's the backdrop here, right? they may be trying to project a little more professionalism, but the underpinnings are all there. very disturbing as you say. so how would you forecast now coming off of what for them was a remarkable showing this weekend, even if a little less than maybe some of them had hoped, or that elon musk and jd vance perhaps had hoped. you know, how do you foresee the role they'll play going forward now with this new government in place in germany? >> so i. >> think we can. >> look at some of the states. >> where they've. >> been. >> very popular. >> so i was in the state of

thuringia. >> one of the places where they've been most popular in the past. and in fact, in state parliament, they won a plurality of votes. >> there. >> but they were not in government because all the other parties joined a coalition against them and made. them just shut them out. so what was the effect of that? supporters of the afd were angrier than ever. they their view was, even when we. >> win. >> we lose. >> so now that they haven't, you know, got enough of a share of the federal parliament to actually be in government, to be most likely in government in any coalition, they're still going to feel like they've been shut out. so i feel like this is sort of a reckoning postponed with the afd and the rise of the far right in germany, because their their supporters are going to look at their fairly strong showing, a stronger showing than ever before, and see that they're still being shut out. and that's going to make them mad. and whenever the next reckoning comes, the real reckoning, it's going to be pretty severe. >> and of course, their strongest showing in east germany. former east germany. staff writer for the atlantic, graham wood. thank you so much. his latest piece is available to read online now. lionel, back to

you in brussels. let's talk about europe's response. to ukraine. the growing ukraine crisis on the third anniversary of the war. i, i've been showing the wall street journal editorial talking about all the times vladimir putin has lied to american leaders. we, of course, had murdoch's wall street journal editorial page, the new york post, even someone fox news striking out against vladimir putin, saying, clearly he is the dictator who began the invasion. and yet republicans, republican senators, for the most part, strangely silent. how is that being received in europe? and what does it mean long term for the u.s. relationship, not only with the united states, but also its relationship towards the idea of defending itself now, without the help of the united states? >> right now. >> joe, the biggest. concern in europe is that we just won't

have. >> a seat. >> at the table when the future. >> of. >> ukraine and the security guarantees or not, and the future economics of ukraine will, will be. >> discussed at. >> the moment. >> it's a us russian discussion. >> a trump. >> putin discussion. >> and there's. >> a big contrast. >> with, for. >> example. >> 1989 1990. >> after the fall. >> of the german war, berlin wall, the. >> bush administration. >> went to great. efforts to bring. >> the europeans on board and actually. >> strike a partnership. >> of equals, in their words, with helmut. >> kohl of germany. right now, germany. >> is being treated as an adversary. the thing. >> to. >> watch is this week. >> president macron. >> will have talks with. >> president trump and our own keir starmer. >> what is he going to say? well, he will, i believe. >> send a. >> message. if you get this wrong. this could be like

afghanistan, the retreat. it could be chaos. so be careful what you wish for. dismay. in other words, that so many people in the republican party and in maga are not prepared to say the word dictator when it. comes to president putin and instead want to cozy up. >> you know. >> that is that is. >> that is. >> of course. >> distressing, i will say. interesting. two people who you would not normally put together. keir starmer and lindsey graham of south carolina issuing the same warning. lindsey graham letting donald trump know that if you think afghanistan was bad, the retreat from afghanistan, just wait. that will be nothing compared to ukraine if you turn it over to vladimir putin. >> france's emmanuel. macron is. >> actually at the white house right now as we speak. so there's that. >> former editor. >> of financial times, lionel barber, thank you very much. he is the author of the new book

entitled gambling man the secret story of the world's greatest disrupter, masayoshi son. and still ahead, apple just announced its plans to invest more than 500 billion in the us to hire 20,000 people over the next four years. cnbc is andrew ross sorkin will give us the details on that. plus, we'll give you an update on pope francis's health condition as he remains in the hospital after suffering from mild kidney failure and pneumonia. morning joe will be right back. >> looking for a way to stretch the dollar. >> with insurify. you can cut your car insurance. >> bill in half. >> scroll through. >> dozens of prices and. >> tap the switch online. >> that's it. >> no phone. >> calls and no. >> calls and no. >> wasted time. ever feel like a spectator in your own life with chronic migraine? 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. in a survey, 91% of users wish they'd started sooner.

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products. including advancements in ai technology. >> let's bring in the co anchor of cnbc's squawk box and the new york times columnist andrew ross sorkin. andrew good news. apple coming here. is that a result of feeling the pressure from donald trump? >> i think it's a little bit of that. >> pressure and i, i imagine and we'll. >> have to. see what. >> it looks like in the next couple of weeks and months. it is a bit of a down payment potentially. on trying to get some relief from tariffs from the work that they're doing in china later on. so i think one of the things we're seeing here is the president and tim cook, for example, meeting last week, tim cook, telling him about these plans in hopes that when in fact, there is a decision finally made on what tariffs look like for goods being imported from china, that perhaps some of that gets some kind of relief, a carve out or something else. i think you're going to be seeing a lot of these kinds of announcements. >> i should say. >> some of them.

>> are very real. >> and i don't want to discount them. but for example, in even in this $500 billion number, it's not all new if you will. for example the production of films and. tv shows on apple tv+ is part of that number. >> so there's going to be a lot of different sort of squishy. >> elements to this. and to put it in context, for example, microsoft has committed to. spend $80 billion a year on its ai development, and it says it needs that as well. >> so there are. >> sort of necessities. i don't i wouldn't say. >> that. >> apple is doing this. >> simply to placate the. >> president or anybody else. >> they actually. >> do need to be spending a large part of this money. of course. >> where they spend. it was up for. >> debate prior to this. >> right. >> and of course, you also. have said before. >> this new pledge. >> builds on apple's long history of investing in american innovation and advanced, high skilled manufacturing and so on. let let's talk about one of my one of my favorite subjects, and

that is warren buffett hoarding cash. a lot of questions on why he is hoarding cash this past week. he, of course, issued a warning on to washington that it needs to be more careful. he also has warned about the fact that runaway inflation could actually impact the value of the us dollar. so this man is now holding $334 billion. now. >> some people have looked at. >> that for a long time and said. >> he must. >> know something everybody else does, and he. >> must be. >> waiting for the big one. you remember during the financial. >> crisis of 2008, he was. >> considered the. >> buyer of last. >> resort, and boy, did he. >> get a lot. >> of big deals. >> less clear this time. exactly what is. generating his desire. >> to keep this. >> money close? >> in his annual letter. >> which. >> was put out on saturday. he also indicated that he's worried about climate and wildfires. and the like, something that he hasn't talked in great detail about before. and he also hinted

at the idea that greg. >> abel, who is currently his lieutenant and expected. >> to become the ceo of this company, may. >> become the. >> ceo of this company soon. >> and so there is. >> some sense that maybe he's trying to lay the groundwork to giving him cash, which then he can use to make investments. >> so a little bit too hard to. to fully read the tea leaves. >> on why. >> there is such a cash hoard there. >> one of the things he was doing by, by the way, selling down apple, which in truth has been a mistake given just how well the apple stock has actually performed. >> all right. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin, thank you so much. good to see you. and still ahead, we'll have the latest on the health of pope francis as he continues to be treated for pneumonia and other medical issues. why? vatican observers say the 88 year old pontiff has to put the church above his own to put the church above his own health. morning joe will i didn't think someone like me was at risk of shingles.

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here in new york. >> 36 past the hour. vatican sources say pope francis is resting this morning but remains in critical condition at a hospital in rome, where he has spent the last ten days while being treated for pneumonia, a complex infection and now kidney problems. yesterday, the vatican announced that they had of the catholic church had to be treated for a. prolonged asthma like respiratory crisis with supplemental oxygen and a blood transfusion. last week, the pope was admitted to the hospital for bronchitis. he was later diagnosed with pneumonia in both of his lungs. the vatican says the pope's kidney issues are now under control, despite the recent hospital stay. people closest to the pontiff say he is upbeat. he is able to eat on his own, visit the chapel inside the hospital and participate in holy

mass with his caretakers. let's bring in father james martin. he is a jesuit priest and editor at large of the jesuit magazine america. >> father martin, thank you so much for being with us. obviously, pope francis is near and dear to your heart. he wrote the preface for your book on lazarus, and pope francis said of you, father james has the perspective of a person who has fallen in love with the word of god. i'm curious your thoughts. on on an ailing pope who has meant so much to you and to so many across the world. >> well. >> it's very sad, of course. >> it's for me. >> it's a sadness. >> on two levels. >> someone that. >> has supported me. >> personally and. >> has helped lgbtq people. >> that i minister to. >> but then. >> you know, on. a ecclesial level. >> a church. >> level. >> a great leader. so something.

personally and publicly for me. >> but, you. >> know, he really. >> does work himself so hard. and i think, you. >> know, he he doesn't spare any. >> you know, effort to. >> help people. >> and i. >> think one. >> of the reasons he's been so. >> sick is. because he's continued. to work. and this. >> is, you know, i think he kind of wants to die with his boots on. i hope it's not for. >> a. >> while, but i think this is. >> one. >> of one of the results that you see of. >> his. >> his his work ethic. >> one of the. remarkable things about this pope speaking to people in. >> rome is. >> how ascetic he is. not esthetic. >> ascetic is. >> you know, he. >> lives this. he has somehow. >> managed, despite the kind. of grandeur of the. >> vatican palace. >> to maintain some of the humility. >> in the. >> style of his life that he brought with him from his time working in argentina. talk to us a little bit. about that and how different that. >> is. >> to some previous popes. >> well, he's the first. >> member of. >> a religious. >> order, the. >> jesuits. >> the order that i. >> belong to. >> which means. that in many.

>> many years, i think perhaps centuries. >> and that. >> means. >> that he took a vow of poverty when he entered. >> the. >> jesuits and vowed to live simply. >> in addition to chastity and obedience. >> and he's. >> well known for that. >> when he. >> was elected. >> pope, he decided. >> not to live. >> in. >> the apostolic palace, but. >> live in the guest house. >> relatively simple. >> guest house decided. >> to, you know, cast. >> off the red shoes. >> and so this is part of who he is. >> and it also. >> is sort of the. >> foundation for his outreach to the poor as well. >> but he's. >> a. >> he's a very simple, humble. >> and i have to. >> say, having. >> met with him several. >> times, funny, he's a very. >> funny person. >> and as i said, i. >> hope he. gets better. but. >> you know, an 88 year. >> old. >> man with double pneumonia. and partial kidney. >> failure. >> it sounds very concerning. and i you know, i've been just praying for him, along with. >> catholics around. >> the world for the last week or so. >> father martin, good morning. good to talk to you again and again. we certainly hope and pray that the pontiff recovers. but as we think about this, his

legacy, what it will be, and hopefully we'll have years before we have to deliver a definitive assessment. but what are your thoughts right now as the catholic church looks to rome and looks to his condition? what sort of impact has he made? >> that's a. >> very big. >> question and a very. >> complex one. >> i would. >> say that he's probably going to. >> be remembered. most for. >> his. >> outreach to the. >> poor. particularly migrants and refugees. >> one of. >> the first things he did was visit an. >> island, the island of lampedusa. >> where there were. >> refugees gathering. i think also. >> his encyclical laudato si on the environment. >> really put the question. >> of climate change in a spiritual light. >> and then i just think. for his personality. >> his. >> personality, he. >> was. just so warm and welcoming and funny and very. approachable and people really just like him. >> i think to spend any time with him is. >> to spend time with. >> someone. who i described him. >> once. >> as kind of the best priest you would ever meet, or the best kind. >> of pastor that you would ever want. >> funny, warm, welcoming. >> great listener. >> and also. >> i have to say. >> very open to taking

criticism. i was with him. >> a. >> couple weeks ago. >> a couple of. >> months ago, and. >> we. >> were talking. >> about some challenging things, and a few days later i met him in in an audience of public audience and he said, thank you for challenging me on that. i needed to hear that. i mean, that. >> that's really unusual. >> so a really remarkable person. >> all right. >> jesuit priest and editor at large of the jesuit magazine america, father james martin, thank you. and of course, we will be keeping you apprized with updates on the pope's condition. coming up here on morning joe, a new film is telling the true story of how a diver got trapped underwater without oxygen, and the harrowing effort to save him. one of the stars of the movie last breath, finn cole, and the film's director, alex parkinson, will join us straight ahead, (fisher investments)t ahead, at fisher investments we may look like other money managers, but we're different. (other money manager) you can't be that different. (fisher investments) we are. we have a team of specialists not only in investing, but also in financial and estate planning and more.

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that's everything i've got. oh, no. >> the ship's not drifting. >> this has become an icon that's never got a hold on me. what happens now? >> you're umbilical. >> it's gonna snap. i will come back for you. >> but you have to get yourself back to the top. i can't rescue. >> you if. >> i can't find you. understand? >> just make sure i don't. >> where's your power? >> dead in the water. we're drifting out of control. >> i suggested you. >> have left. >> not enough. we're going. >> to be too late. >> it's a. >> body recovery now. >> no it's not. i'm not losing a diver today. >> there was. >> a look at the new movie last breath, based on the 2019 documentary of the same title title, and it recreates the harrowing events of the 2012 oil rig repair mission that went terribly wrong, leading to one of the divers being separated from his ship and crew for a

very long time and putting his life in grave danger. with us now, one of the film's stars, finn cole, and the director and co-writer of last breath, alex parkinson, he also co-directed the documentary, which the movie is based on. you know, finn, we kind of have a rule here. i do not talk about actors past exploits, of course, unless it's will ferrell. and then we talk about the entire catalog. but with you, i just have to start by saying you were extraordinary as michael on peaky blinders. mike pence my favorite television show of all time. so anyway, thank you for. that and thanks for being here. but this story, it's mind blowing, finn. it's mind blowing. set it up for us about what happened. >> i mean. >> it's a. >> it's. >> a high stakes. >> thriller about a rescue mission to save a man that. >> got stranded. >> on the bottom of the seabed in the north sea. >> a saturation diver. so a diver living. >> and working.

>> at massive. >> pressures at the bottom of the of. >> the ocean. >> when a system failed on the ship and the ship got blown. >> off course. >> he got he got. stuck down there and his. >> his. >> crew members, his. >> team mates had. >> to had to save him. >> and it's a. >> true story. >> and we had the luxury. of being. >> able to out in malta. >> being able to. >> shoot this. >> and tell it. >> kind of. >> in a dramatic way. >> alex, even when, when you see what this is about, even when you look at the documentary, it is hard to believe what what finn's character actually survived for 30 minutes underwater. >> yeah. >> i mean, that's. >> exactly what. >> what drew me to the story in the first. >> place is just. >> the sheer. >> unbelievability of what happened. >> and the. >> in the actual true story, and. >> to bring. >> that to life. >> in a. cinematic way has been. >> a very. special thing. >> to do with finn playing that part. >> so. >> alex, this is your narrative feature debut, but of course you did the documentary as well. talk to us a little bit about that. that leap from from

obviously a material, a subject you knew so well, but then bringing it to this bigger venue. >> well, i mean, obviously the big difference. >> between documentary. and feature. >> is that. >> in the documentary you have talking. >> heads who. >> tell. >> you. >> exactly what you need to be. >> thinking and. >> what's going on. and obviously, there's the intellectual process of going through the script and bringing all these bits of information. out in an organic way and non clunky. >> way, and sort. of focusing. >> much more on the emotion of what's going. >> on and making it more. >> experiential and immersive, if you will, with what's going on. so that was the sort of bigger jump to the feature is that you're able to explore all these. angles a. >> lot more. >> so let's take a look at a clip where your character realizes he's about to lose contact with his ship. >> take slow, deep breaths. >> otherwise, you'll burn through your backup gas. understand? dive control. diver two is on bailouts. >> how much. >> does he have left? ten minutes. what happens now? your

umbilical. it's going to snap. you'll get. >> pulled off the structure. >> now i will come back for you. >> but you have to. >> do. >> something for me. >> okay. >> you have to get. yourself back to the top of the manifold. i can't rescue you if i can't find you. understand? >> so, finn, my question is, how good of a swimmer are you? no. let's talk about this. this shoot and the challenges of it. and it's not just underwater for much, but just the. so much drama and suspense. >> yeah. >> i mean, the credit. >> first of all, to the to the writers, this script was, was fast paced. and i think as an actor, that's the kind of luxury you get to step on set and you. >> know, exactly kind of the. pacing of something. but the training. >> the extensive training that we did, we did. >> four weeks of. >> advanced diving training, scuba.

>> and then we. >> started to use the equipment, the helmets. >> which i. >> think that was the biggest challenge. you know, those. systems are built for very high pressure, very deep down. and we're working about 10 or 11m at times. so the valves, some of the, some of the, the mechanics that we're working with wasn't quite working as well. so that was a challenge, but a lot of practical lighting. >> half the movie for. >> me is actually underwater in the dark. so i'm using my own lights to light myself. and there were times where. i'd kind of be on a radio up to alex, who was watching the monitors. >> and i'd. >> say, you know, how was that? and he said, well, we couldn't see. >> your face on. >> that one. so having someone. >> else do. >> that for you on normal sets. >> is a luxury i really found. >> but then doing it, doing it. >> myself was. was the. >> was a big challenge. >> you know. alex so much of this seems impossible or or just extraordinarily improbable. but we got to tease in that last clip of something else that happened, like he had to get back to the platform. he's he's. that the chances. >> are so.

>> minuscule that he would actually do it. but that was the only way that he could have his life saved if he actually found his way back, that back to them. talk about that. >> exactly. yeah. >> because when he. >> got thrown off. >> the. >> structure he was in, he just couldn't see where. >> he was. >> at all. and he had to basically he had to pick a direction to go and commit and go essentially. and in real life that happened. and the thing is, if he'd chosen the wrong direction, he would have walked off into no man's land. he would never have been found, basically. that's arguably the biggest miracle of this story. >> yeah. an extraordinary tale. we're excited to see it. the new movie last breath premieres in theaters this friday. actor finn cole and director and co-writer alex parkinson. our thanks to you both. thank you. thank you. up next, here on morning joe, we'll take a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning, including an asteroid mining spacecraft. that sounds like a movie, too. and the big winners from last night's sag awards. morning joe

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>> doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy. >> main justice. new episodes drop every tuesday. >> welcome back. an american airlines flight carrying nearly 200 passengers and crew from new york city to india was diverted to rome over the weekend because of a security concern. nbc news correspondent emily okita has the latest. >> another scare in. the sky. >> after a bomb threat caused this american airlines flight. traveling from new york city to new delhi, india, to be diverted. video capturing italian. fighter jets escorting the plane to its new destination. >> in rome. >> once the aircraft entered italy's airspace. >> things got real. >> when there was. >> a jet flying. >> near the aircraft. >> wisconsin resident yash raj was traveling to india for a family vacation. >> the aircraft. was just being told there's. >> a security situation. >> i got worried that something might happen. >> might have. happened in new delhi. like some. >> attack or something on the

airport. >> american airlines flight 292 took off from. jfk airport saturday evening. it was just several hours out. from new delhi when. >> it made an. >> abrupt u-turn over the caspian. >> sea. >> eventually touching down in rome sunday. the crew reported the security issue, according to. >> the faa. >> which a source. familiar with the situation. >> says was a bomb threat made through an email. the aircraft was inspected in rome and the threat was found to be not credible. american saying in a statement that safety and security are our top priorities. >> and. >> we apologize to our customers for the inconvenience. >> the airlines do receive these threats from time to time. typically, they really don't have any validity to them. so it's rare that it will reach this level. >> sunday's diversion, the latest in a recent string. of high. profile aviation incidents. last month, an army helicopter collided with an american. >> eagle regional. >> jet over the potomac river. 67 people. >> were killed. >> and just a.

>> week. >> ago, a delta plane arriving in toronto crash landed and flipped upside down, leaving dozens injured. remarkably, everyone on board survived. >> that was nbc's emilie ikeda with that report. time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. officials in los angeles county are asking the public to stay away from fire debris that's washing up on the beaches there. while the mix of ash, sand and pieces of burned wood and plastic have tested at levels that fall short of being deemed hazardous waste, officials warn that interfering with the debris could cause long term environmental damage. elsewhere, a private company will attempt to send a spacecraft to an asteroid with hopes of one day mining minerals from the rock. odin, a microwave oven sized vehicle from astro forge, will be attached to a spacex rocket. it could launch as soon as wednesday. the

company is targeting an asteroid that's known as 2022 ob five, which it believes could be rich in the platinum group of metals. odin is projected to reach the asteroid late this year. and as we wrap up things with the sag awards, which are a closely watched preview for the oscars, timothy shanley won best actor and demi moore won best actress. and conclave was named best ensemble. the last three best ensemble winners went on to claim best picture at the academy awards. the oscars are indeed this coming sunday, and joe, i will say conclave was the best movie i saw in theaters all year. i will also say conclave was the only movie i saw in theaters all year. >> well, i will. >> say that conclave and timothee chalamet take on bob dylan were my two favorite movies that i saw in theaters all year, and they were also the

only two movies i saw in theaters. you and i don't get out much this year. yeah, we don't get we don't get out that much. so that does it for us this morning. we, of course, are looking back on the three year anniversary of the russian invasion of ukraine and whether republicans on the hill want to admit it or not, it was, in fact, very straightforward. regardless of what the secretary of defense said, it was a russian invasion of ukraine to try to take over the entire country. we'll see if any republicans care to speak out and say the same things today that they were just saying in the months and weeks and years before donald trump got back to the white house. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. >> right now on ana cabrera. >> reports the ultimatum elon musk tells. >> federal employees. >> explain your work or else. >> ign