5-year price lock guarantee. powering five years of savings. powering possibilities. comcast business. 1-800-403-3753 nine. >> that does it for us. the reidout with joy reid is up now. hi, joy. always great to see you. >> it is. >> always great to see you. i'm glad to be here with you. samwise gamgee here at the end of all things. you know, i

didn't do a hip hop. i actually. >> did a lord of the rings thing because it's. >> you know, i'm a nerd. sorry. >> respect, i like that. >> all right. good one, love. see you later. thank you so much, ari. and happy monday, everyone. we begin tonight with what i think is the question when you are in the midst of a crisis and specifically a crisis of democracy, how do you resist when fascism isn't just coming? it's already here. so what, if anything, can you do about it? well, for one thing, you can try to learn from history. from what people in this situation, in countries around the world and in america have done before. as my friend rachel maddow always says, history is here to help. america hasn't always been a free country for everyone, and we've had resistance movements from day one, from enslaved people fighting their captivity. shout out to harriet tubman, who was a 92% or 92% was cool and even taking up arms during the civil war to the women's movement and the workers rights movement and the stonewall gay

rights movement. they've all been versions of the fight to make this a free country for everyone, and to have a true multiracial democracy. and that is history's most important lesson, right? that the most important thing, the first rule is to fight back, to never stop resisting. do not obey in advance. as tim snyder put it, do not take the knee to throw in a game of thrones reference. even if it's scary or uncomfortable or inconvenient, just keep saying no or finding creative ways to say no. in small ways and large, medgar evers said, do not shop where they will not employ you. doctor king championed the montgomery bus boycott to become the leader of the civil rights movement. the labor rights movement shut down factories and hobbled industries to win the 40 hour workweek that you enjoy right now. and more recently, to ensure the right of workers to work from home during covid, people have marched against the vietnam war and the war in iraq, and against the decimation of gaza, using our tax dollars. you

don't always win every battle, but the whole thing is about resisting. last week, federal employees received an orwellian email from the office of personnel management, the government's hr department, following a tweet from their apparent real boss, the world's richest billionaire. elon musk, head of the fictional and orwellian department of government efficiency, stating that consistent with president trump's instructions, all federal employees will shortly receive an email requesting to understand what they got done last week. failure to respond will be taken as a resignation. the email that followed literally had the same subject line what did you do last week? and came from the office of personnel management. new hr email address but had no signature. here's the full email. please reply to this email with approximately five bullets of what you accomplished last week and cc your manager. please do not send any classified information, links or attachments. deadline is this monday at 11:59 p.m. est. the

saturday email kicked off a flurry of, shall we say, varied responses from the various podcasters, reality show hosts and semi-famous people who run the agencies in our trumped up federal government. some, including kash patel, who alarmingly enough runs the fbi, told their employees to hold off. given that, per his email, the fbi, through the office of the director, is in charge of all our review processes and will conduct reviews in accordance with fbi procedures. when and if further information is required, we will coordinate the responses. for now, please pause any responses. others, like robert f kennedy jr, emailed his department that the opm email was legitimate and instructed them to read and respond for the instructions by the monday evening deadline. however, per sam stein of the bulwark, one agency under hhs took the opposite stance. matthew memoli, the acting director of the national institutes of health, emailed his team to tell them to please

hold on responding until we receive further guidance. sam stein is also reporting that hhs is backtracking on the ellen email and saying not to respond. employees at the department of justice and department of defense are also being told not to respond. and you thought your hr department was chaotic. in short, no. nobody really knows what to do. just the usual trump world reality show chaos. but the email presented americans with one of the other really perfect responses to fascism ridicule. journalist alison gill, from a substack called the breakdown, posted some of the best fictional responses that appeared online in response to the question what would you really like to say in your response? some of the best included. number one kept refreshing email to see if i was fired or placed on administrative leave. number two tried to concentrate over the sound of colleagues cleaning out their desks. number three accommodated the request for access to classified data by big balls. number four had a scotch.

number five researched countrie. i can relocate to. another one said drank it old fashioned. number two took a nap. number three delighted coworkers with sarcasm. number four dropped a tray of chocolate covered pretzels in the conference room before the town hall. number five put black history month stickers on bulletin board and gave out emotional support. dumpster fires. and last but not least, number one executed low productivity tasking. number two identified opportunities to transition to high productivity tasking. number three developed plan for doge to eff off. number four all the teams meetings. number five responded to meaningless emails about task execution. the point being, other than it being hilarious that this regime that we find ourselves living under is producing massive chaos and trauma in the lives of federal workers and in the country. just look at this latest round of protests at tesla dealerships, at town halls. america is resisting in large ways and small. the kennedy center for the performing arts has seen a

50% drop in ticket sales. drag queens are showing up to protest outside. america is saying no to elon musk running us. we do not want him in charge. period. and donald trump, the guy who handed his biggest donor the keys to the whole federal government for him to do whatever he pleases with it, is underwater in every single poll, from gallup to the washington post to cnn, to reuters, you name it. other than his maga cult, nobody wants this chaos and confusion. and it also raises the question of what is the actual waste, fraud and abuse that elon and friends are finding so far? their claim of finding $55 billion in savings is backed by exactly zero facts. while they're threatening the future of medicaid and food stamps for millions of americans and even social security payments. while the only fraud seems to be elon musk racking up new contracts with the federal government on the taxpayer dime while giving back zero savings from his starlink, tesla and spacex deals with the defense department and other agencies.

sorry. why does he get to make more money while you and your community get less? and the only abuse that we're seeing is against the very federal workers in all 50 states who are being bullied by the 19 year old doge kids and told to justify their jobs by a guy who spends all day literally tweeting and waving a chainsaw around while wearing sunglasses indoors. is this the efficient government that you voted for? really? because it all really just looks to my mind like a mess. and we're probably looking at a government shutdown next month, since the completely incompetent republican party has no idea how to run the government. and what that tells you is that even when republicans claim that trump has a mandate or that he's doing what the american people voted for, they are lying. nobody voted for this. this is a mess and not even a normal mess. it's a fascistic mess. and what you can do about it is what you're already doing. just say no. tonight on our final reidout, we are going to talk about what

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your first year with xfinity mobile. plus, ask how to get the new samsung galaxy s25+ on us. order when you sign up as a new vip only@fabletics.com. >> go beyond. >> the. >> headlines with the msnbc app. read, listen and watch live breaking. news and analysis. >> anytime, anywhere. go beyond. >> the what? >> to understand. >> the why. download the msnbc. app now. >> we're going to start with breaking news on capitol hill. >> mounting questions over the future of tiktok in the us. >> reporting from. >> philadelphia. >> el. >> paso and the palisades, virginia. >> from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. >> let's bring in my fabulous panel, ruth ben-ghiat, history professor at new york university. msnbc legal analyst and former federal prosecutor paul butler. ben rhodes, msnbc political analyst and former deputy national security advisor to president obama and former

white house senior director and state department senior adviser. thank you all for being here. let me get the folks who are not in the advantage of being able to hang out with us. i'm going to go to you first, ruth. give me an assessment from your expert point of view of the resistance that we're seeing in the country to all of the doge, elon musk, trump, chaos. >> yeah. so as we. >> know. >> we don't have. >> a big generalized nonviolent mass protest. but we have righteous indignation breaking out spontaneously all over the nation. >> and joy. >> i really believe that there's a reckoning that's going to come. because what's happening now at the hands of literally the world's richest man who has taken control of our government and is using it to enrich himself and investigating, he's, you know, destroying agencies that have been investigating his companies. this brings forth much like it brings to a peak,

all of the unfairness of neoliberalism, all of the kind of the rich get richer. and that's one part of authoritarianism. it's more, you know, fewer rights for the many and way more liberties for the few. and so we're seeing a kind of, you know, indignation and anger that's erupting at local, you know, town halls in front of gop members of congress and their town halls. and so this is a very good sign of something larger that i believe will come. >> yeah. i mean, i think it's when people feel things taken away from them personally, right? when they're like, wait a minute, you know, elon musk gets fat contracts and the community gets no more medicaid, no more head start, no more food stamps. and also people who live in the community losing their jobs are like, wait a minute, why am i being unemployed? so elon can get richer? it makes no sense. and i think that is part of the resistance. it's not necessarily ideological. ben rhodes, i want to go to you on this because,

you know, germany is in this moment too, with us. you know, i mean, we're not alone. like one of the things that actually makes me feel better is to know that we're not going through this alone. this sort of crypto fascist movement is moving all over the west. and for a lot of the same reasons, i think, as ruth said, neoliberalism has not helped people. and so people turn to populists because they hate the economy the way it's working. can you talk a little bit about germany? because germany, the afd party that elon musk touted, it, got about 19% of the vote, but they didn't win. they won't be part of the governing coalition. does that give you hope? and how do we sort of process the international the internationalization of this, i would say sort of global apartheid movement. >> no. i mean. >> joy. >> this is something. >> that i've. >> been looking at. >> for over. >> a decade now, which is essentially you. >> had. >> a backlash. >> around the. >> world. not just in the west. >> but principally. >> in the. >> west. to. >> globalization, to neoliberalism, to a system that was not working for working people. and there was a lot of. >> anger. >> at establishment. there was frustration with changes in people's lives and in

communities, changes with related to deindustrialization. changes related to immigration, to in lots of countries. and that anger was captured by the right. you could have a populist of the left, a kind of. economic backlash to that, or you could have a kind of identity politics of the right that could. capture that. and what's happened over the last decade is in. >> part. >> because of real work, including coordination across borders. it's not a coincidence that elon musk was backing the afd. you've had this ecosystem on the right that is built up over a decade, and that has captured power in a lot of places. what's interesting about germany, where you never like to see the far right get a foothold, and where we should be very mindful that the vice president of united states of america flew to germany on the eve of their election, refused to meet with the leader of that country, and endorsed the afd, a party that has neo-nazi roots. >> in germany. >> right. but what happened there is because they have a multi-party system. the afd captured 20% of the vote, around a fifth of the vote. and that's not enough to get them over the

hurdle into power. in this country, the republican party is basically the afd. the republican party got captured by that far right core that was represented by donald trump. i think the good news is this is shocked people awake around the world. you know, i was just in germany. i was there in munich when j.d. vance gave that speech. people are awake to the danger of losing their countries to the far right. thus far, governing elites, the people largely in the center, have not figured out what to do about that. but i think what we need to see in this country and in germany is a kind of organic, bottom up resistance and a regeneration of institutions like the democratic party or like the social democrats in germany. it's not going to be the party leaders in the establishment that figure out what comes next. it's going to have to be the rest of us. it's going to have to be civil society. it's going to have to be people out in communities. and you are beginning to see that even in this country, manifesting around the country, at town halls or in federal workers who are being laid off,

or people who are just realizing that donald trump won on a populism that he does not intend to govern on. >> yeah. i mean, he clearly does not care about the price of groceries and the price of rent. he doesn't care about that. he cares about selling merch and hanging around billionaires and renaming bodies of water. he has no right to rename. i mean, he doesn't care about any of the people that voted for him. i don't know what he has to do to make y'all see that, but he doesn't. i mean, some of the things that elon musk is doing, and it is notable to me that the people leading this movement are largely south african, white south africans, people who had a fascist government that they grew up under in south africa, which was the apartheid government, and they are taking and exporting their politics here. peter thiel, you know, elon musk, there's a bunch of there's like a little clique of them and they have donald trump. right. and this but but i want to talk to you about the destruction of the state department and us aid and how, interestingly enough, it is radiating potential poverty into the american heartland. right, because it turns out a lot of that aid goes to american farmers. >> not only does it go to american farmers, but it is what

has. it's the type of aid that has sustained america's industry. >> and dominance. >> in the world. and it's only been a penny on a dollar of the us budget, like it is such a fraction of a penny. if the us budget was an entire dollar, yet it says something that the world's richest man is targeting that right? humanitarian aid, things that support massive u.s. industries, helping humanitarian and poor people around the world. the richest man in the world wants to target. that before he tackles the bloated military budget that even eisenhower warned us about. i mean, it just goes to this broader idea that many in this clique of south africans, they believe in the ceo monarch. they think democracy is broken. the idea that people have power sharing agreements, people of all colors, shapes and sizes is completely against their own philosophy. i mean, these guys, these dudes came up with privilege and daddy's money. yeah. and they it. does not work for them in this society to see that other people have access or equal access to that. so they

champion this idea of a ceo monarch. they have donald trump in there who's willing then to cede power. yeah. and they have a congress that has also ceded its power. >> yeah, yeah. and let me bring you in here, paul, because but what people what's happened now? can i just show this in idaho? protester getting dragged out of a town hall. this is a republican town hall. can you all just see this? you're starting to see. and, you know, we you and i did a lot of black lives matter coverage. we covered a lot of the way that black people are treated. we're now seeing these. this is not a black people thing you're seeing in all white audiences in places like idaho, people being dragged from their seats, being treated brutally. you're seeing federal workers who have now had to sue because they get an insulting email saying, justify your job, or we're going to have to remove you. and an 19 year old sent it. can you talk about the sort of legal recourse and fight back? >> sure. so i became a lawyer inspired by heroes like thurgood marshall and constance baker motley, who the last time there was a constitutional crisis when southern states just weren't going to follow brown versus

board. they said, you have to. and they made them. and so now we have judges who are stepping up. there are 20 different lawsuits already generated by trump 2.0. a judge has told trump that you cannot freeze money that congress has allocated for foreign aid. so you've got to release the money that was going to help save people's lives. the problem is the trump administration has not responded. they're literally ignoring that order. there's going to be a court hearing this week where we see what we'll see, whether the constitutional crisis is happening right now. >> yeah. >> we're going to hold your thoughts. this is called the tease. we're going to make we want to hear what you have to say, but we're going to have to you say it after the break because we got to pay for this. because we got to pay for this. don't type 2 diabetes? discover the ozempic® tri-zone. i got the power of 3. i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight.

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>> for first responders, military and law enforcement only@gov.com. >> back with me are ruth ben-ghiat, paul butler, ben rhodes, and ira hawk. and to finish your. >> thought, here's what i'm concerned about right now and that i think people are waking up to this, this idea that we do all these lawsuits. and of course, you know, it takes time to get through the system. but at the end of the day, trump can just say, all right, make me do it. you and what army and the courts do not have an enforcement mechanism other than trust in the institutions system of checks and balances the

constitution. this whole idea of these three branches of government ceding power to each other, that is a norm that does not have to be. and it seems like there's many people in the country who voted for trump who are perfectly okay with that ceo monarch type. and so this is really where the opposition needs to get creative, maybe like the governor of maine, where she sat down and said, you know what? if you're going to insult me and you're going to try to deprive my citizens of my state of their rights, we're not going to send you federal tax dollars. states and people need to be reminded of the value of this federated system that we have. yeah, california is the breadbasket that feeds the entire country. what happens when they can't provide food anymore? >> right. and the other thing, and this is this is the question i asked you, paul, i'll just ask you on air. could california say if elon musk and not congress decides how our money is spent, then california shan't be sending money anymore. good luck, louisiana surviving without our money. because right now california supports louisiana, alabama, tennessee. these southern republican states are literally on the dole of california. they are a donor

state. can cal can california or new york say, we're not paying. >> so they could try that. there probably be strong legal pushback. and then the question would. >> be, what if they don't listen. >> then yeah. what if a judge orders them to do it and they don't do it. they follow trump's move of saying, well, what are you going to do? do you have an army? so i think that that could be a legal civil war that hopefully we can avoid. yeah. i've got good news about who can lead the resistance though, because i was thinking about what the earlier movements that you talked about, the civil rights movement, stonewall for lgbt rights, the people who led those movements were black women, right? so we know the leaders were people like thurgood marshall, martin luther king, medgar evers. you wrote a whole book about the role of shirley and other black women. so when we look historically about how black people have had to save this country. so time and time again, black women have been the leaders. and that's why your voice is so important. >> can you say this, though, that, you know, as a non-black person at the table, people like

me got to not rely on black women to do the work for them because they did their job. they did their job this last. >> let me get let me get ruth in here on this, because black women are leading a movement right now against target. target is suffering economically because they said, we're not going to shop there. if you're not going to do dei, you don't need our dei dollars. so goodbye. and so you are seeing these sort of micro resistance movements that are against specific companies and saying, we're going to choose costco instead. does that work on a bigger scale? if it's individual attacks on individual corporate entities, does that can that metastasize, to paul's point, into a bigger movement? >> it can. and economic boycotts have been they've been very effective at certain times in places. a very interesting one is still going on in myanmar after the military coup and the resistance that's developed, it's now developed into an armed resistance. that's one of the most successful in the world. many people expect the junta, the military junta, to fall if china doesn't help them. but at

the very beginning they started and this was youth doing this, young people, they started an economic boycott and they they developed apps that told people in real time which businesses were colluding with the military junta, and it was incredibly effective. and these kind of for this generation of resisters, this kind of invention just spreads across borders, right? yeah. so there's a lot of innovation going on with economic boycotts via apps and things like that. >> yeah. and ben, i mean, you know, we saw poland emerge from a sort of near autocrat, sort of semi autocratic government. it took eight years. but i wonder if you see a country in the world that is similar enough to us that we could sort of see an archetype for how we might be able to extract ourselves from this mess. >> you know? yes and no. i mean, there have been a variety of european countries like poland and smaller ones to like, i have

friends who've fought back autocracy in places like slovenia that have kind of stared over the abyss of autocracy, kind of pulled back. what they did in those countries is they built big tent coalitions, right? so they said, look, from the left to the center, there's stuff we don't agree about. but essentially this is existential for our country. and so we're going to put ourselves under one big umbrella and we're going to prioritize democracy. frankly, that's kind of what failed for us in the last election. i think what we have to realize is that we're distinct from those countries and from a lot of countries around the world, precisely because of what we've been talking about, because we are so big and so diverse. we're multiracial, we're multi-ethnic, we're 50 states in a federated system. and so in some ways that gives us more tools to fight back. but i think what's missing joy is it can't just be an antiseptic democracy. that's institutions. it has to be something moral. it has the kind of thing that gets people in the streets, the kind of things that mobilize things like the civil

rights movement was a kind of moral cause. and i think we've lost that in our politics. we didn't have that in the last election. it's why, by the way, i appreciate joy reid's voice so much. it's because we need people that are willing to fight for things, even some things that aren't popular. you know, it's not just about finding the best poll tested language. it's about showing that you care about something and you're willing to stand up for it and you're willing to fight for it. and frankly, we have the perfect antagonist right now, elon musk. you're right. this kind of south african oligarch and donald trump, this guy who's enriching himself while they loot the government in front of everybody's eyes. this is not a hard target in terms of an opposition. that is clearly not on the side of most people in this country. i think what is needed is, yes, the tactics that we've been talking about, yes, the big coalitions we've been talking about, but they kind of return to a sense of who are we as a country? what do we stand for? what do we want our identity to be, not as just white americans or other ethnicity groups, but what do we want to be as american? and i think that's been missing a bit over the last decade in terms of

the people stand for democracy. these aren't just institutions of government. this is who we want to be as americans. and i think the time is ripe for people to start to make an argument that is very different from donald trump's, but also different from the kind of antiseptic, almost academic defenses of democracy that that we've been making in the trump years. >> that is so smart. and i mean, paul, it's kind of similar to what you're saying. i mean, the reality is when you say we have to fight for our democracy, nobody knows what that means. most people do not know what that means. they don't sit around with a textbook figuring it out. but people, you know, people understand. elon musk paid himself and the hood not getting any money. exactly right. and that's what's happening. he's literally people were angry that ukraine was getting money that they translated in their mind to money. that's not going to the hood. you know who's taking money from the hood? elon musk. exactly right. it's a simple argument and maybe somebody should make it. >> that's right. and when you call social security, you have to wait eight hours on the phone when you check from irs is late because they don't have enough workers, who do you blame? yeah. >> don't blame h&r block because h&r block tried. >> i need a government that's

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tell me one thing about the cocktails? no, i have to write this copy. thank you all for being here. let's let's talk about this because i wanted you guys to be here with me, because you are my comrades in arms, in covering this insane moment that we're in. when it comes to what our what is happening in our country. i want to start with you, rachel. i would love for you to give our audience just your take your tips. what do you think people can be doing right now that's effective? >> well, first. >> i. >> want. >> to say that i love you, joy. >> i love. >> that i. >> am bereft. >> that the. reidout is ending. i really. >> i just can't. >> even i. >> sort of. >> can't get beyond that. >> so i want to say that. but that is also. >> part of. >> what i think. >> i have. >> to say to the country about this moment, which is. >> find people who you respect and trust and. love and make common. cause with them and help, you. >> know, help. >> yourself by learning from them and help them by standing

up for them. and i think we have tried to do that. and i think that in important ways we have failed. but i think it's still the right thing to try to do. and so. whether that means. >> you know, joining something. >> locally or. >> whether that means making. >> some sort of more unofficial common cause with the people in your life who you respect and. >> who you think are. >> people you can. >> depend on. >> like i feel about you, you got to join forces. >> we can none of this. >> none of us can do this alone. and being atomized and dislocated and picked off one by. >> one is. >> is a is a strategy. >> the other side. >> and we need to stick together. >> indeed. and when y'all when you're hearing rachel say that, know that no one fights for us harder in this company than rachel maddow. and when i tell you she is our fearless leader, we mean it. and she is our super friend. we love her so much. and let me go to my. speaking of super friends, when y'all watch on the special, the person that says exactly what i was going to say, making me have to think of a whole different thing to say

because she thinks she's like, so brilliant. but i'm like, i'm just literally so in awe of just your history, your ability, your political acumen. nicole wallace, my good sister, tell me what you in your brilliant self believe people can do. >> well, i'm going to break the rules the way rachel broke the rules and tell you that i love you. that the happiest times i've had, not just at msnbc, but ever being on television, have been sitting next to the two of you. no offense, lawrence, we love having you there, too. >> we love lawrence. >> and that i think that i thought that things like that on tv couldn't be real, but that the friendships that have sustained me have been with both of you. and i am, you know, it's like losing a limb. the thought of doing those nights without you, your strength and your fearlessness is the answer to the question i think you're getting at with both of us. and i think that my reaction to the

end of the reidout and your departure is despair. and the only thing that that that chips away at that for me, is that despair is the autocrat's tool. it's their most effective weapon. it costs nothing. it's easy to deploy, it's contagious, and then it puts in motion all the actions they want hopelessness, isolation, exasperation, giving up. and so the only reason i will not wallow in what i feel about you leaving is, is because i think that's what they want. and so i don't think there can be artificial joy and gaslighting about sort of breaking up the pro-democracy side. i think it has to be, you know, i think we have to be real with ourselves and with each other. but i do think i'm so intrigued and sort of i feel the stirrings in everything you've been covering tonight. you know, the, the, the answer to this moment is not going to come from a perfect ad

being cut by a brilliant ad maker and put on the air for the perfect candidate that comes out of the lab. it's just that's not how we're going to save ourselves. and i think waiting for someone to save us is kind of how we got here. we have to save ourselves. we as a country have to decide that elon musk getting, you know, i mean, i don't even know what the word is. he's already the richest person in the world, you know, richer than the richest person you know to ever exist. i don't even know what the goal is. but i think that turning this over to the country and saying, you may think this is what you wanted, but this is not who we are. >> yeah, yeah, indeed. and i think people are getting there. and, lawrence, i want to bring you in because and again, i keep going back to this special because like literally it's like a little party. we're like a girl group, but we've got we let one guy or two hang around, hayes gets to hang around, but we love our lawrence. lawrence is literally the guy that we're just we're all sitting there waiting. what in the world is lawrence going to say? because we're going to be like, that's it. we got it. we understand it. so do that for us now, lawrence,

just solve all of these democracy problems for us now. three, two, one. go. >> this is. >> this is the greatest. honor lineup i've. >> ever been in. so let me. just start with that. >> to an honor to be. >> in this lineup. >> and joy. >> i'm going to. >> skip the love stuff. >> because we. >> did that. >> on saturday. >> it's true. >> i put it. >> in writing in that first text. >> when i said, i. >> love you. okay, so we. >> can you. >> have that. >> and writings forever. so you have. >> y'all don't realize we literally text and call each other like it's really wild. but anyway, please, lawrence, please. >> so i want. >> to turn to. >> this wonderful. >> book by. >> joy-ann reid. >> oh. >> and merli, no, seriously. >> this. >> this is important. and it's to and it's to the answer. >> of what we're talking. >> about here. because, you know, right in the middle of it, in page 194, there is this this is the decisive battleground for america. >> now, that really feels like something someone said five minutes ago or any time in this year. that's 1964. that's a 24

year old guy named michael schwerner who is going to be murdered that year after he says that because. he has. decided in 1964 that what he's going to do is leave the safety of his home in the north and go to mississippi, the most dangerous place in america, and go down there as a civil rights worker trying to help people register to vote, that was his choice. there were other people who couldn't do that, people his age who never leaving their neighborhoods or their towns in the north and elsewhere around the country, tried to fight the same fight, tried to do what they could do. there were people who decided that what they would do is vote, that they would. they were on the side of the righteous, but all they could do was vote. but every one of those people made some kind of decision in the face of something that was hopeless. it looked hopeless in 1964. it

looked in 1964 that if you think you're going to work to get black people the right to vote in mississippi, you are going to be dead and no one's going to get the right to vote. and in the end, he won. he won in death. he won from the grave. and that choice is there for everybody all the time. and there's another thing that comes to mind, joe, and i'll shut up. and that is walter lippmann. >> when he. >> went to his 30th class harvard class anniversary, which i know is a distant thing for you, your harvard class, your 30th reunion isn't coming for a long time, but but, lippmann said to his harvard class in 1940, you know, before the united states is into world war two, but world war two is underway, that they now had no choice. there was no choice. they couldn't take anything for granted. they had to join this fight against fascism. they had to join it because there was no way you could sit back and choose to do nothing. he didn't

tell them what to do. he didn't say, you, you know, you should join the army or anything. he just said, you know, you absolutely must now be committed with every bit of strength you have, again, against something that seemed hopeless. i mean, germany was just raging across europe then it looked like it looks like there was going to be a winner and it was going to be hitler. and so these dark hours have demanded things of people that they have risen to in the past, and there's no reason why people can't find their own spot. you know, michael schwerner didn't join a political campaign. he didn't need a leader to tell him what to do. he just he did it. he just got on that bus and he went to mississippi. he just did it. and everyone can just do it. >> yeah. amen. and rachel, i mean, that is so powerful because, you know, i, you know, i like to steal good ideas and i give people credit for them. but you're the one who said history is here to help. i mean, it just

actually is, you know, and you and i are both obsessed with the 1920s and 30s. i'm very obsessed with them and the 20s, especially now, because it feels very resonant to today. but i think part of the thing of history is it kind of makes people feel a little dejected because we keep repeating it. and so i think the question is, what is the thing that puts a pin in history so that we don't? so i wonder how we use that history, that brilliant history we just heard from lawrence, but not let that make us feel like, what's the point? because we're just going to do it again. >> well, it's it cuts both ways, right. >> because the, the severity of. what our. >> predecessors have been up against in the past. >> is can be disheartening because. >> you can think like, why. >> does this stuff keep coming back? why do. >> we never. defeat these things? >> but the other way to look at it is to. >> think, wow, our predecessors have a lot to teach us about how to. defeat these things, about how to defeat. >> you know, one of the things that you and. >> i have talked. >> about a lot in the past. >> in the past year. >> or two, joy. >> is the way that we. >> defeated the fascist

movement. here in. >> the. >> united states. >> that. wanted us. >> not. >> only not to join. >> world war two, but if we were. >> going to join, to join on the side of the nazis. we talked a lot. >> you and. >> i, especially around your. >> book, and. >> we've talked about. >> the strategy and the human. >> strength that it took to build a movement to defeat segregationism. >> and that. >> in itself was a movement that was a. minority movement that. >> was fascistic. >> in nature. and that absolutely succeeded. in ruling whole. parts of the country until it was defeated by an equal by. >> by a larger. and smarter movement. >> that took it down. >> the people. >> who went before us in this country, who have defeated forces that were a. >> lot more. impressive than what we're up against. >> right now. >> have stories. >> to tell us about what to do. and that's why you are interested in history. that's why we've. >> all been covering so. >> much history on all of our shows. it's not just because the bad guys recur, it's because the good guys who are. >> never as. >> famous as the guys, good. >> guys. >> they have stories to tell. >> us about. >> what to do, and we need to

stay loud. we need to stay united. we need to protect the press. we need to protect the institutions that we. >> that we've still got as. >> they are under assault right now. but it starts with joining something. it starts with finding people who you believe in and who inspire you and who you love and trust, and that can be your colleagues at. work like we have. it can be your local indivisible group. it can be. >> your local. >> book club. it can be it can be anything. but now, now is not the time to be alone and scrolling on your phone. yeah, or complaining on post on social media. now is the time to join something in real life. >> yeah. and nicole, and this is one that i know is particularly painful for you because part of it is also party capture. but the democrats had party capture, too. i mean, the democrats were the wholly owned, you know, property of the far right kkk, you know, fascist at 1.2. and the republicans also kicked out the john birch society. so talk a little bit about whether party capture is so far gone for republicans in in your mind, it can't be reversed because i feel

like, i don't know, you tell me, what do you think? >> i think i met all of you as a bush official. right? and you are iconic. you're not just critics, but your your your relationship with our audience is in is in as as harsh a critics of everything i worked as a part of. and so if you look at the two parties in their health and their constitution, one of them stretched so much that i'm a part of this conversation that liz cheney was a part of kamala harris campaign, that adam kinzinger spoke at the democratic convention, that danielle sassoon stepped away from the justice department and was embraced by andrew weissmann and chris christie. one party right now has space for bush cheney defenders. you know, federalist society prosecutors, a cheney and every member and facet of

the democratic party, traditionally from from labor, you know, every aspect of it. the other one is literally got bill barr in an enemies list. >> right. >> and so i think it might take a minute, but i don't think there's a single example in history where the party that's entire retribution strategy. i mean, kash patel's list doesn't just have republicans on it, it has trump cabinet members on it. and so there's not an example in history where that side prevails in the long run. and so i think i think about the health of the parties and sort of the health of the body politic. and i think a lot about the democratic party, and it's so different from the republican party in every, in every single way. one of it is its earnestness and its inclusiveness. and it's there's this twisted irony that that inclusiveness is what was weaponized by the maga movement against it. and so i but i think in the long run, it's about sort of the health of the body and the health of the body on the democratic side seems to be the one with so much more inside of

it to build on. >> well, we are going to pray that there are republicans who stand up and seize back control of their party like they kicked out the birchers. you can kick out maga too, y'all, if you want. look, my daddy was a republican, so like, he would be rolling. he's rolling in his grave now. but like, you know, they can come back to that. michael steele's republican, they're republicans. they can pull it back. y'all come on, fight for your party. my friends. rachel maddow, nicolle wallace, lawrence o'donnell. i could not respect or love people more than i love you all. and one of the great things about msnbc is that it's actually genuine. like we actually all really dig each other, and we think that each other are great, and we talk and we share and we learn from each other. and i've learned so much from you. i love you guys. >> thank you. >> thank you for everything you've taught us. joy. thank you. >> very much. thank you. i love you all. thank you. >> i've got. >> a lot more to. >> learn from you. i'm planning on haunting you for the rest of. your days. joy. reagan, never get away. >> i'm obsessed with ghosts. >> i'm obsessed with ghosts. it's very convenient. keep this is where you are.

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that thing back in high school when you had a group project and you were mad because not everybody did the same amount of work? well, this show is the exact opposite. the readout worked because everybody from the interns on up put their whole heart into it. so before we go tonight, my moment of joy is to tell you just some of the names of the people who made this show happen from nathan mittal, our amazing and always well dressed intern, raven sievers, our fabulous tape producer lily guthrie, who keeps our graphics looking fab. our awesome associate producers adam garnett, who understands as i do that every story is really a story about brooklyn and julia kurtzman. go, liberty. so there you go. you converted me. our genius producers, tori james, our marathon runner, andres penfold perez, our man of many faces, valerie mccabe, my cut up partner during the meetings, tiffany mullen, who literally

knows all the things. jonathan hellman, who i will miss reciting his segments during the show meetings and helping me tell stories using children's poems. chi ma, who channels my whole entire brain, and also our resident sports expert, senior producer pete fall, probably the most cool headed, kind person i have ever worked with in this business. our line producer rachel witkin, the conscience of the reidout and with tori, our other resident swifty, our phenomenal booking producer leslie frazier, aka our disney princess, patrick judge, my fellow comic fan, digital producer alexis stodghill, my ride or die social media super friend, our phenomenal blog editor jahan jones, the downtown sterling brown, our director, and all of the amazing directors here at miss caleb seales, our resident hip hop expert and my forever anchor producer, my fabulous glam squad, janice and coco right here in dc, who have the challenge of putting glam on a person with total adhd who cannot sit still for even 30 minutes. and in new york city.

bailey, mina and voltea and our awesome crew. durbin, burly, bernie, bernie, bernie and julie, our indefatigable floor managers, brooke from brooklyn and charlotte, our tech production managers, tech director, chemo staff, our graphics playback operator, john, our lighting guy zack, our utility vic on audio, ken on video and on playback. our sound team claire and jacob. gary who manages everybody and all the amazing crew members here in dc as well as in new york, my security team, steven scott and shante brown and also miss jen downstairs. and last but certainly not least, we call ourselves the reidout go team senior managing producer robert zeliger, the most brilliant, but also the most elderly millennial who literally knows everyone. and my amazing friend, collaborator, work wife, pal since literally the hardball days and the fearless leader of this amazing team, our girl power executive producer, the amazing boss tina urbanski, and

i'm also urbanski. she said i could be adopted. this is the a team, y'all, and they will be an asset to the next show. whatever show that they grace with their presence. and yes, you can use me as a reference, but most of all, these are my tv family. much love to everybody. everybody who made the reidout great. and if i missed your name. it's not my heart, it's my head. you know i had to fit it all in. and special shout out to our amazing readers, our audience. i just love running into y'all in the airport, on these streets, and on social media. i could not love or appreciate you more. thank you, thank you, thank you for holding us down. almost five years. we are a toddler and we out in these streets in this world and we are not going to stop. that is tonight's reidout. you can follow me on blue sky instagram threads and on substack at substack. joy, i mean joy and read substack.com. also on tiktok and facebook at inside with jen psaki. starts now. >> okay. >> i know joy just. >> ended. >> her show by thanking her team, which is the most authentically j