could be adopted. this is the a team, y'all, and they will be an asset to the next show. whatever show that they grace with their presence. and yes, you can use me as a reference, but most of all, these are my tv family. much love to everybody. everybody who made the reidout great. and if i missed your name. it's not my heart, it's my head. you know i had to fit it all in. and special shout out to our amazing readers, our audience. i just love running into y'all in the airport, on these streets, and on social media. i could not love or appreciate you more. thank you, thank you, thank you for holding us down. almost five years. we are a toddler and we out in these streets in this world and we are not going to stop. that is tonight's reidout. you can follow me on blue sky instagram threads and on substack at substack. joy, i mean joy and read substack.com. also on tiktok and facebook at inside with jen psaki. starts now. >> okay. >> i know joy just. >> ended. >> her show by thanking her team, which is the most authentically joy thing to do, i

can tell you. and they are also a very incredible team, but i want to start this show tonight by thanking her. i want to thank her because she's done amazing work here. she does tell stories no one tells. she does that fearlessly on her show, but also for the person that she is. and even before i met joy reid and i didn't meet her till i started working her, i felt like i kind of knew her. i don't know if you relate to this. i felt like she was kind of talking directly to me through the screen. i know many of you watching at home know exactly what i mean. and then when i got here, she became my office neighbor, literally two doors down. and she is the best office neighbor i could have asked for. i mean, she's somebody whose mind and her talent and her fierceness i admire so much, but she's also someone who i kind of just love and love running into in the hallway or chatting with on the set during specials, as my colleagues were just talking about about anything, what's happening in the world, what's going on in her life. and i'm going to miss all of that. and

so thank you to joy reid. i just wanted to start there. in the meantime, i watched her show, as many of you probably did, and i want to start. i also want to do what i know she wants us to do, which is to start fearlessly in talking about what's in the news and not holding back. and that's what we always intend to do here, too, just like she does. i do want to start tonight with the fast approaching deadline for federal workers to respond to what is a pretty wild saturday email from unelected billionaire elon musk. i mean, according to musk, who i will also note has literally absolutely zero authority to enforce this. all federal workers had until midnight tonight to reply to an email listing five things they accomplished last week. now, he said, if they don't respond, they lose their jobs again. that's all. according to an unelected billionaire who thought bringing a chainsaw on stage of cpac last week was the right choice. that's what he with sunglasses on. but then today, musk's bizarre email

threat was backed up by none other than donald trump, who of course offered up this super clear, super helpful guidance quote. if you don't answer, you're sort of semi fired or you're fired, semi fired or fired. i'm sure that alleviated all of the confusion being felt by millions of federal employees. that was brewing for the last couple of days. now, today, the office of personnel management came out and said that responding to this email is voluntary and workers will not lose their jobs if they don't respond. remember, all weekend, millions of federal workers were faced with this kind of bizarre choice. i mean, did they respond and risk musk doing who knows what with the information? perhaps sending it through an ai system is one of the things that's been reported. or did they not respond and risk losing their jobs? now here's where it gets kind of a little interesting, because even before opm issued their guidance that responding was voluntary, as i just said, some what i would consider unlikely characters

actually push back. so the director of national intelligence and definitely a trump devotee, tulsi gabbard, ordered all intelligence community officers not to respond. the department of defense led by trump's buddy pete hegseth. yes, that guy told employees to ignore the email, and fbi director, qanon supporter, and maybe the most dedicated trump loyalist of the whole posse, kash patel, told employees that the fbi not to respond. also, now remember, this is a guy, kash patel, who literally wrote a children's book series portraying trump as a king. but this time he's telling the people at the agency he now leads not to follow the order. and elon musk doesn't appear to be taking this too well. it seems to be a little bit under that guy's skin. i mean, he tweeted in the last hour that the email request was utterly trivial. then he tweeted that the subject of the that it was subject to the discretion of the president, workers will be given another chance. and that failure to respond a second time will then result in termination. so he clearly didn't love the

pushback he got from those agency heads. he probably didn't plan on it. and now it's been a clean up over there on ill. but let me be clear. those trump officials who defied musk, i'm not suggesting in any way, shape or form they deserve a profile in courage award. that's not what i'm saying here. their pushback here is not of a desire to do what's right. this is clearly driven by what they would consider their own self-interest. i mean, it's not within the self-interest of gabbard or patel to blindly follow musk and to open themselves up to even further mutiny within the agencies. they were just confirmed to lead. it's not in the personal self interest of gabbard and patel to risk classified information or information about sensitive investigations. they now oversee going to a group of 20 something tech bros who may put it through an ai system, so we know why they're pushing back. i think those are some of the reasons, and lord knows there are a lot of other things that they should be pushing back on more. there's no question about that. but that doesn't change the fact that they are still pushing back a little bit on something. we're seeing something similar play

out internationally. i mean, this morning, three years to the day that russia launched their all out assault on ukraine, the united states voted against a un resolution condemning russian aggression and calling for an immediate withdrawal of russian troops from ukraine. that is an crazy thing, that that is how they voted. that vote was in line with countries like north korea and belarus. everyone i mean, not exactly leaders in defense of democracy or morality or many things, but that vote is also totally in line with what we're seeing play out publicly from trump and members of his administration. i mean, just over the past few days, trump called ukrainian president zelensky a dictator without elections who should have never started the war in his own country. all completely false made up. and over the weekend, defense secretary pete hegseth repeatedly refused to say that russia started the war in ukraine. they invaded ukraine, as everyone knows, but just worth restating. and once again, some people are pushing back. and once again, it's not necessarily coming from the people you might expect, like

friedrich mertz, the guy who just won germany's national election and is on track to become the next chancellor. now he's a conservative. he's not wildly popular, but he's actually pretty aligned with donald trump on some things. a lot of things. i mean, a centerpiece of his campaign was toughening immigration laws. but before the final votes in germany were even counted, mertz had this message for trump, quote, my absolute priority will be to strengthen europe as quickly as possible so that step by step, we can really achieve independence from the usa. after donald trump's statements last week, it is clear that this government does not care much about the fate of europe. i mean, the guy wasn't even fully elected yet when he said that. and listen to what french president emmanuel macron said today, with trump sitting and scowling just a few feet away. >> this is the responsibility of russia because the aggressor is russia. >> the aggressor is russia. a very obvious and accurate statement to make. but listen, he made it while sitting next to the scowling president of the united states, who has been declaring exactly the opposite repeatedly. and look, mertz and

macron are not doing this because they are secret members of the democratic resistance here. they are not they're kind of acting out of their own self interest, too, as most leaders do. it's a better political move for both of them to stand up for ukraine and against russia. trump is a bit of a foil for mertz. but again, the key thing is that they are pushing back just over a month into the trump presidency. that's important because it shows that the pushback is kind of coming from everywhere right now, even from the unlikeliest of sources. and it's coming from people within the administration, among the most loyal of all the loyalists. it's coming from town halls and some of the reddest pockets of our country. it's even coming from world leaders. this is the kind of stuff you'd yes expect from democrats, liberals, card carrying progressives. and of course, we're seeing it from them too, for sure. but now they're definitely not the only ones. julia ioffe is the washington correspondent for puck and one of the country's best journalists on us russia relations. also with us is democratic congressman eugene vindman of virginia, who previously served on the national security council. i think we all share a ban on

going to russia. i think all of us are probably on that list. so there's that. but let me start with you, julia. i just noted kind of some of the pushback that we're seeing from european leaders. i don't want to overstate what it means, and that's important. but i do want to get a sense from you about kind of the global politics here. i mean, what are the global politics for some of these leaders, and why do you see them stating the opposite of what the united states president is stating? well, because the us president. >> just took and flipped the us from the column of democracies to the column of autocracies. if you just look at the un vote today, we voted with north korea, iran, belarus, russia, belarus, like you said, not champions of democracy. we had the us trying to meddle in german elections, putting our thumb on the scale of the german elections for the afd, which is frankly a neo nazi party we. >> have which didn't work. >> which didn't work for now. >> for now. >> and we have the us president

on the side of russia in in negotiations, as he's calling them to end the war in ukraine. of course, it's not negotiations. it's not the art of the deal to just give away the store to one side. and in negotiations, anybody could do that. and president biden could have done that and prevented the war as well. but the reason you're seeing that pushback is the us isn't leading that camp anymore. the us is with the bad guys now. the us is with the fascists now. and so these are the people who are tasked to lead the free world, because we sure as hell are not doing it anymore. >> i mentioned, which is such we're not leading. we're not sitting at the lead of the table anymore, which is a real change. i mean, that is not a political change. let me ask you, congressman. i mean, you're a ukrainian american, of course, and you've spoken out about all of these issues. i mean, the defense secretary refused to say over the weekend that russia started the war. that is ludicrous and crazy. it's something that is a russian kremlin talking point. it's something that putin would probably say. there is some pushback. we're stating the facts here. but how impactful is

it that you have the president of the united states, people in his cabinet, some of them, some of these people like elon musk overseeing massive platforms. how what is the impact of that type of message and disinformation that they're spreading? >> well, you got to remember that the sole. reason all of these people are in his. >> cabinet is. >> not because they're competent. >> capable, they have. >> experience. >> they've ever. >> managed anything. it's loyalty. it's blind loyalty. >> they would never. >> be selected. >> as manage of a. >> mcdonald's, rather. >> and as. >> opposed to. >> secretary of defense. >> so i. >> think it's laughable. >> and so. >> what they're. >> doing is they're. >> they know that. their their job depends on. >> pleasing their boss. there's only one. >> person that they actually. >> have to listen. >> to and abide. >> and it's donald trump. and it's shameful. it's not in. accordance with our values. >> and it's a hard turn towards dictatorships. >> and autocracies away from. what this country has always stood for. >> there's no question. i mean,

julie, let me ask you a similar question because i feel like, again, we know what the facts are and it feels very obvious. these are the facts. russia started the war, but you've covered and you've watched. i mean, this spread of disinformation happens here in the united states. it happens globally. now you have the leader of the free world basically touting inaccurate information about this war. i mean, what is the impact and what can people even do to push back? >> well, i mean. >> this is a. >> president who i mean, things that seem obvious to us, right? january 6th was an attack on democracy, an attack on the capitol. it was the most live streamed, televised, photographed event that probably any of us have seen. right. everybody was there with their cameras out. everybody was saying, i'm doing this, i'm attacking the capitol. and he says, no, they were peaceful. no, it was an inside job. and what a third half of the country now believes him. so things that are obvious don't get to stay obvious for long. and they become incredibly politicized and divisive just because one

side says so. as for ukraine, i think anybody who has studied history, who has studied these types of leaders knows that you you don't feed scalps to the tiger. and in order to get them to stop, like it's not going to sate his appetite for scalps. >> he just wants more scalps. >> he wants more scalps. and stalin could have told you this about hitler. he signed a non-aggression pact with him in 1939, and hitler invaded two years later. because that you don't make deals with these kinds of guys. these deals don't last long. they're not worth the paper. they're. >> let me ask you, because you wrote this very thoughtful piece about the firing of generals and the purging of people in the military. and one of the challenges right now is there's so many stories. it's almost like things don't get enough attention. that's why we're trying to talk about a lot of these things. there's history here in terms of what the impact is of firing qualified people in the military and filling it with political loyalists, as julia

said. tell me what you think. and what are you most worried about here? >> well, look, it's simple. >> he fired the. >> chairman. of the joint chiefs of. >> staff because. >> he is a black man. >> he fired the director of naval operations. >> she was a woman. >> he also. hegseth also fired his senior military aide, a lieutenant general. >> who was a woman. so what they're trying to do. is they're trying to. >> purge folks that. >> have quality. >> that have. >> achieved their positions. >> through decades. >> of hard. >> work. experience every position, and they're. >> replacing them with yes men and folks that will not. challenge them. and the firing of the lawyers. >> the head lawyers. >> is actually, in some ways. >> the most disturbing thing, because those lawyers are tasked with. >> interpreting the constitution. >> and letting. >> their. commanders letting the civilian and military leaders. >> know that these are the. lawful parameters, these are constitutional. >> parameters, and. >> you can't cross this line. and he's. >> eliminated that. and so who is he going to bring in behind

him? that's why the question i asked was. >> it's not. >> a request. may may i please have this information. we have a role. >> in congress. >> an oversight role. >> and i am demanding that they provide answers to why they fired qualified, capable individuals that. >> are serving. >> in apolitical roles. and what. >> are their criteria for hiring the replacements? >> that's what i want to know. >> congressman vindman, this is such an important piece. i'm going to talk about the jags. as you referenced a little bit later. i'm going to talk to general hertling about it too. and it's a story i hope people pay close attention to. so, you know, and it's so important to understand what they do coming up, not one but two far right conspiracy theorists are now in charge of the fbi. we'll introduce you to kash patel's new deputy, former fox news host and podcaster dan bongino. can't make it up sometimes. ken dilanian and george conway are standing by and they join me in just 60s. >> you're seeing. >> skechers famous sidestep footwear everywhere, and. >> now that.

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>> just days after donald trump swore in a conspiracy peddling far right commentator with no relevant experience as the director of the fbi, he announced that he would be making dan bongino a conspiracy peddling, far right commentator with no relevant experience. see a theme here. as the deputy director of the fbi. now, it's important to note that in the bureau's 117 year history, the fbi is second in command, has always been a career agent with the kind of institutional knowledge necessary to actually run the bureau's operations, which makes total sense. the last full time deputy director, paula bate, had logged 25 years with the bureau before being appointed to the position. before him, deputy director david bowdich had 23 years at the bureau under his belt. before him, deputy director andrew mccabe had 20 years of experience and before him deputy director mark giuliano, with 25 years of experience in the job. that's what he came in with. so between the previous four deputy directors, that's almost 100 years of experience at the fbi. i'm not a mathematician, but that's a lot of years now. dan

bongino's resume, on the other hand, includes two years working for the new york police department, 12 years in the secret service, three unsuccessful runs as a republican candidate for office, and about a decade as a far right maga pundit. >> my entire life right now is about owning the libs. that's it. the fbi is lost. it's broken. irredeemably corrupt at this point. jack smith, of course, the special tyrant investigating donald trump for a fake crime he made up for a fake insurrection. the only thing that matters is what? chad. what matters? anyone? how? power. you can see. what about power? >> seems like a nice guy now. joining me now is nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian and conservative attorney george conway. okay, ken, let me just start a little bit with the history here, because i mentioned the deputy directors and the history of how many years experience they typically

have. that's something that seemed that kash patel promised or said publicly he might continue. so what happened here? >> at least according to the fbi agents association, they say that patel committed to them that he was hoping to and interested in hiring a career fbi agent, as has always been the case in this job. and when you think about it, that would make sense. he's an outsider. he's a flame throwing maga partizan outsider. you need somebody in there that knows how to make the trains run on time. this is an incredibly powerful job. some people were telling me today they think the deputy job is more important than the director job, because the deputy actually supervises operations, is in charge of all the special agents in charge of all the field offices across the country, has his hands on some of the most sensitive intelligence and counterintelligence operations in the united states. and this is now being handed to a guy with no experience in the fbi and a long experience trashing the fbi. >> i mean, yes, double the deputies in many of these agencies are actually the ones who run the day to day thousands and tens of thousands of

employees. they do a lot of the work. no offense to the people at the top. george, let me ask today, trump, trump's post announcing bongino. he added to his resume that he's one. i'm just going to get this quote for you. you're going to love it. you probably saw it. one of the most successful podcasters in the country. what do you make of this pick? >> well, it's got nothing. >> to do with actually running. >> the fbi as a law. >> enforcement agency. >> it has to do with. >> owning the libs. >> i think. donald, there's a little. >> bit of that with. >> donald trump. >> he hates. >> the fbi. the fbi. >> investigated him. >> for his. >> various crimes. >> including the. >> one the mar-a-lago. >> stolen documents. >> case, which. >> was. >> an open. >> and shut case. >> but yet. >> you know, dan. >> bongino said. >> that everybody associated with that case should be fired. >> and so. >> it's really about revenge. it's about. >> owning his enemies. >> and also it's about retribution. >> i mean. >> he really does. >> donald trump. it's just. >> ingrained in him. >> he wants retribution. >> against his enemies. and by. >> picking two. >> people who. >> are just. >> completely loyal. >> to him. and who have spread.

>> his. >> disinformation about january 6th and about spygate. >> even. >> back in 2016. >> that's what. >> bongino got. >> on the radar screen for. >> and covid, which. >> which bongino got thrown. >> off. >> of youtube. >> for permanently. i mean, all this stuff is. >> just heat. >> these are the two. >> perfect people. >> to run. >> an fbi. >> that's controlled by a president who's a criminal. >> let me ask you, ken. i mean, you are so well sourced within the fbi, i assume. but you tell me that after kash patel was nominated and confirmed, there was this hope that they'd have somebody who was one of their own, right as the deputy that that who could run things and help maybe serve as a protective layer. what is the reaction been? >> it's been shock and horror because you're absolutely right. they thought, look, as as controversial as kash patel is, if you put a career agent in there as the deputy, then he can explain. no, sir. that's illegal. we can't do it that way. you know, we have to follow the rules and the law. now you have two bomb throwing maga

outsiders. and look, here are some of the things that dan bongino has said. dan bongino said that the fbi lied a few months ago when they said, we don't know who the suspect is that planted the bombs outside the rnc and the dnc the day before january 6th. they had this whole campaign seeking information from the public. dan bongino went on a podcast and said, oh, that's wrong. they know who did it. it's a conspiracy. now he's going inside to run the place. and that's what i'm hearing today is just horrifying people who work there. >> i mean, i can't some of these people have been there for decades. let me ask you, george, one of the questions i get asked a lot. i mean, when you're in a train station, it's like, what are the guardrails? what can be done to stop this? i mean, i think there are a lot of people who might be on a political enemies list who might be targeted, just who are concerned about what they could do with their power. what are the legal guardrails here to stop the two of them from. >> the legal guardrails ultimately. >> would be the courts. >> yeah. >> because if they want to bring punitive prosecutions against people, they still have to prove crimes beyond a reasonable doubt. but at the end of the

day, in terms of just the mismanagement of the agency, i mean, 38,000 people work for this agency and the two people at the top don't know anything about how it works. and they're also they've lost a number of people at the top levels already. so it's just i don't know what the remedy is other than other than we're stuck with them and it's not it's not great. >> i would say one thing though. the one another guardrail are the people that work there that will follow the rules and the law. this is a rule based organization. they're not going to just start investigating people without predication. they will quit many of them before they do that. and so we'll find out about it. >> but the problem is who are they going to hire to replace these people. could be, you know, these january 6th ers. >> this is this is a real possibility. i know you both know these issues so well, ken, you're the hardest working person covering this agency. thank you george. thank you so much. we'll talk more about this unfortunately soon i bet i hope. coming up, we learned today that those emails that elon musk asked federal workers for are. and i've referenced this a little bit, expected to be fed into an ai system to determine which jobs to cut. what could

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action blend to help reduce. >> urges to urinate. >> find it. >> at walmart. >> or these retailers. >> okay, so as i've been talking about, we know a lot of agents. we had some surprising ones actually told their employees not to respond to that email asking federal workers to justify their jobs by 11:59 p.m. tonight. but among the more than 2 million recipients of that email, i'm sure many of them may

have. i mean, this whole saga has raised the question, who is actually going to read all those responses? like, where does this information go? well, now we know. nbc news is reporting today that doge will feed all those emails into an advanced ai system, and that the ai system will determine whether someone's work is mission critical or not. what could go wrong there? i mean, in other words, they could use ai to decide who to fire. and if that sounds extremely sketchy to you, it sounds extremely sketchy to me, too. i mean, doge tried this exact same thing at the department of education earlier this month. basically feeding sensitive federal data into ai to target cuts, as the washington post reported at the time, feeding sensitive data into ai software puts it into the possession of a systems operator, increasing the chances it will be leaked or swept up in cyber attacks. so yeah, i mean, having a machine decide the value of positions in our federal government and determine the future of people's livelihoods, that all sounds pretty risky and unknown to me in more ways than one. oh, and by the way, the department of

health and human services is now advising its employees that if they choose to respond to the mass email, assume that what you write will be read by malign foreign actors and tailor your response accordingly. good to know, i guess. i mean, joining me now is somebody who knows a lot about national security issues. i'm sure he's concerned as well. senator andy kim of new jersey, before getting to congress, he worked on president obama's national security council, also for president bush's national security team, i think. what did you work? >> i was on the usaid. >> the usaid side, but you also worked for him as well in national security space. let me just start by asking you. that's a lot i just walked through. and that hhs note is pretty jarring. >> yeah. >> i mean, help us understand, because you've worked in this space. like, what is the risk of this type of information going through an ai system? >> well. >> i'm glad hhs. >> raised that because. >> that's what went through. >> my mind. >> you know, the idea that. >> you know. >> if you're going to. >> try to send out a message. >> to all federal employees, have.

>> them by. >> name, identify. >> themselves and what their tasks are. i mean, basically, we're doing china's job for them. you know, they can lay off some workers in beijing because we're actually doing that work for them here. and i just find that to be appalling. i mean, look. and even if it's not foreign malign actors, you know, clearly with the doge team and we got malign actors here who are just trying to undermine the federal government. and i think that's something i want the american people to understand. this is not about efficiency. this is about loyalty. this is. about having trump and musk put in the people. >> that are going to be beholden to them. >> so that they can. >> push forward on their corrupt agenda, whether it's the tax cuts for the billionaires or, you know, musk siphoning up all this data to feed into his own large language model ai system. like, where is that data going? >> well, that's the question, right? i mean, and the collateral damage of this, which, you know, he paints it as this simple act like everybody can just do five things they're working for. but you worked in national security space in government for years. i mean, how much of that could you have put in an email like that and

felt safe about it? >> well, you know, there's a reason why omb set out a directive last year that prohibits the use of ai when it comes to employment, performance and management. this is not allowed in our this is prohibited explicitly. and that omb doctrine is still on the books today. so, you know, this is something that goes against what has been prescribed. it is prohibited because of this purpose, you know, how can you determine the performance? i was a civil servant before i worked in multiple different performance and agency. i want the american people to know, like there is accountability. there is oversight for federal government employees. it's not like there is just lawlessness there. like we see the lawlessness in the trump administration. you know, there is that effort and a lot of people in government, they want to make sure things get more effective and efficient. it's not like they are just trying to, you know, as musk says, you know, work for a criminal organization. and so like, yes, like there is accountability, there is oversight, but it has to be done in a safe way.

otherwise, we're literally just handing over data to spies to other countries that they can use now to target our own government employees. >> which is a collateral damage risk of this. let me ask you, because you and i have talked about i mean, you just ran for senate. you've been in how many? 70. >> just passed the 75 days. >> 75 days. congratulations. but you've been very in touch with your constituents. you've held town hall meetings and things. what are people saying to you in new jersey about doge and what they're seeing musk and his team do here? >> yeah. you know, and this actually crosses across the political spectrum. i have had people, conservatives, republicans in new jersey say, hey, look like i've always been against government being able to get more and more data and infringe upon my privacy. and frankly, a lot of my colleagues in congress, they are the first to jump up and say, you know, keep, you know, keep the government out of our data, out of our information, out of our lives in that way. but where are they right now? you know, so, you know, that is something that i think people are understanding. i mean, look, you know, people certainly understand that, you know, the

status quo in our country, that government and politics, it was broken. you know, there are things we need to change. and i'm ready to have that debate and that conversation about how we can fix things. but this is not the way we go about this. this is just putting our country at risk, you know, giving, you know, adversaries and competitors access to this information. you know, when i was in a meeting, i was out at the munich security conference and elsewhere. and, you know, other countries are literally like these leaders come to me, they're like, what is happening in america? that's literally they they talk to me as if, you know, like i have a, you know, a sick puppy or something. they're just like, are you okay? like what is happening in your country? and it just it's really sad to just see how much our reputation has taken a hit and how much other countries are literally just watching what's happening in america in shock that the most powerful country in the world can be reduced to this level of damage in just a matter of weeks. >> you may have a few sick puppies here. it's maybe not just one. let me. just because i'm sure you're asked by these

foreign leaders, and i'm sure you're asked in new jersey too, what can you do about it in the senate that you're in the minority in the senate? the republicans have majority control. there are some republicans who might decide this is too much. what would you like to see the senate do to kind of hold this to a greater account? >> yeah. well, look, i mean, we look across all of our tools. so, you know, we've been working closely with the state's attorney generals to be able to have the litigation aspect. i've been engaged with a number of different unions that are representing the employees, and we're trying to in congress and in the senate, you know, try to make sure that we're raising this to the american people, having them in particular. what's important is this understanding that, again, you know, this isn't about some quest to make government work better, you know, or efforts like that. what we see here is, like all the things that trump promised, you know, trying to take on lowering, you know, prices for people. he's not doing any of that. you know, i think what it was, 66% of americans say that, you know, trump's not doing enough to

lower costs because they see what he's doing. yeah. you know, you know, creating meme coins and banking off of this, just grabbing as much smash and go smash and grab as much as possible. so i think people are understanding what we need to do is draw their attention to the corruption, draw their attention to just the blatant lawlessness that's out there. that is very un-american. >> senator kim, thank you so much for joining me. it's great to see you. >> thanks again. >> coming up, texas says donald trump's purge of the defense department will eliminate certain roadblocks. and that begs a very scary question. roadblocks to what exactly? we're going to talk about that we're going to talk about that when we ever feel like a spectator in your own life with chronic migraine? 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. in a survey, 91% of users wish they'd started sooner. so why wait? talk to your doctor. botox® effects may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away as trouble swallowing,

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for a smooth shave with blades that barely touch skin >> okay, we all know that donald trump puts loyalty above everything else on many, many different fronts. we talk about this all the time, and that includes the united states military. national security be damned. you better be loyal. that's the key thing. you better look the part, too. i mean, he's looking for people who are out of central casting, as he would say. i think we all know what that means. i mean, consider who his recent purge of the pentagon included general cq brown, who was just the second black man to serve as chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. he was fired for being focused on, quote, woke stuff, according to defense secretary pete hegseth. and admiral lisa franchetti, the top operations officer in the navy and the first woman ever in that job, she was also fired. seems

like trump doesn't think they're the right fit to be his generals. maybe they don't meet central casting, as he's called some of his top appointees on day one of his term first term. so what does he want? well, again, he's made clear before that loyalty is key. that's the thing. i mean, he's the same guy who once said, i need the kind of generals that hitler had. who says that he says it. that's concerning, obviously, for clear reasons, but especially because of the kinds of things trump has asked the military to do before. during his first term, he mused about having soldiers shoot migrants in the legs to slow them down at the border. he once had a draft executive order ready to have the military seize voting machines. after he lost to joe biden in the 2020 election, and his own former defense secretary, mark esper, said trump wanted the military to literally open fire on black lives matter protesters in the summer of 2020. >> he says. >> can't you just. shoot them? >> just shoot them. in the legs or something? >> and he's suggesting that that's what we should do, that

we should bring in. >> the troops and shoot. >> the protesters. >> shoot the protesters. so yeah, we know how trump sees the military. but one major obstacle to the military doing things that are illegal actually exists inside the military in the form of the judge advocates general. and i've been talking about this with a couple of my guests tonight or or jags, as they're often called. it's their job to ensure that orders given and orders received are lawful. i mean, it's one thing to fire an officer who he believes won't do the job the right way, but it's another thing entirely to remove lawyers who give detailed, thoughtful advice to leaders about what is or isn't legal. so the point is, if you want to do things that are illegal, they are some of the people you would get rid of. and that's exactly what secretary of defense pete hegseth did on friday, firing three top jags at the army, navy and air force. now, normally we wouldn't be able to tell you for sure. that's why he did it. but i think we all know these are definitely not normal times. and pete hegseth admitted why he did

it on live television. >> ultimately. >> we want. >> lawyers who give. sound constitutional. >> advice and don't. >> exist to attempt. >> to be. >> roadblocks to anything. >> anything that happens. >> in their spots. >> again, if using the military for illegal stuff is your goal, then yeah. i mean, i guess the people who ensure you follow the law are roadblocks. and needless to say, the surge at the pentagon has raised alarms among some of the nation's most decorated former military base brass. retired lieutenant general mark hertling is one of them. he's the former commanding general of the united states general of the united states army e tap into etsy for home and style finds like custom shelving for less than 50 dollars to make more space. or linen robes under 75 to get you cozy. for affordable pieces to help you welcome big changes, etsy has it. jordan's sore nose let out a fiery sneeze, so dad grabbed puffs plus lotion to soothe her with ease. puffs plus lotion

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pick a cleaner, and enjoy a spotless house for $19. >> president trump's purge of top pentagon officials included the second black chairman of the joint chiefs and the first female chief of naval operations. and that isn't just shocking. it also all of it. this purge could endanger our national security. the former

commanding general of the us army in europe, lieutenant general mark hertling, writes this in a new piece for the bulwark, quote, political interference in military leadership, especially dismissing generals and admirals based on ideological loyalty rather than competence, has repeatedly led to disastrous consequences. and retired lieutenant general mark hertling joins me now. it's great to see you. thank you so much for joining me. i just want to start i read your piece. it's an excellent piece, but i just want to start by asking you about the point about history, because this is not the first time in any country that generals have been purged for loyalty reasons or to try to replace them for political reasons. what should we understand about what the impact has been and what the impact could be here? >> well, when you reach the. >> rank of three. >> and four star general, you actually sign a piece of paper before you go into the job that you're promoted to that say you serve at the pleasure of the president. and, you know, at any given time, they can take that piece of paper out and say, okay, you no longer see the

pleasure of the president, so be gone. generals and admirals have been relieved for, as you just said, for. >> poor performance. >> acts of misconduct or a lack of trust by their supervisor, the president. but i can't recall any general officer in our history who's been relieved for. their political ideology, as most of them don't advertise it. >> you know, we go. >> we go into all jobs that we have in the military as nonpartisan. we serve not just our commander in chief, but. >> we. >> also serve the people of our country. you know, we take our nation's sons and daughters in our commands and sometimes go to war with them. so we have two audiences we're playing to not just our bosses, but also the citizens of the united states. >> i talked a little bit in the last block about the jags and the firing of these three jags by the secretary of defense, and this is a term people may have heard of, but they may not know exactly what it is and what they do. help us understand or explain to people the importance of these jobs.

>> well, the tjag, first of all, is the judge advocate general of each service. so there's one of them. it's usually either a one star or a two star general. there are also staff judge. >> advocates say. >> they work at every single command. i had a staff, s.j, from brigade command to division command to usareur command. but there's only one tjag in the army, navy and air force. >> that was the most. >> troubling relief for me, because nobody knows these guys and gals names. they're lawyers. they've gone up through the ranks learning their trade not only as prosecutors, but as defenders. and they have jobs. they inform the commanders of legalities, how to basically adhere to the constitution, but they also institute the uniform code of military justice. so as a commander, i would go to my s.j. and say, hey, i'm looking looking toward court martialing someone. tell me about the facts of the law and the legal ramifications of that. and it's to instill. >> good order and discipline.

>> jags in the. >> army are different from lawyers in a business working for a ceo. they are with you all the time. they give you important advice not only on what you do in combat, but also how you discipline your soldiers. so it's important to realize that these are critical forces and they maintain the. >> rule of law. >> help the commander maintain the rule of law in the military. and that's why their firing was so troubling to me. >> how did you read the comment from secretary hegseth about eliminating roadblocks as the reasoning? >> well, you know it. i had an indication of how he felt during his congressional testimony when he called tj jagoffs. now, that's a derogatory term. and it was rude and disgusting when i first heard him say that, because these guys play an important role. he probably never saw a jag at the platoon level when he was leading 20 men. but you know, his. comments

about how they are chosen by each other. when he was talking on fox news and. then even expanded that and said the jags choose each other, they take a vote, which is exactly how it works with the chairman, and they perpetuate the status quo. nothing could be further from the truth. these folks are not die hires. it's not part of an old boy network. the boards that choose the senior ranking officials in our army are very rigorous and disciplined, and they choose only the best based on their experiences, their education, and the kinds of things they've done in peacetime. and combat. >> general, we only have about a minute left. but one of the things that we hear secretary hegseth talk about a lot, a lot about is wokeness, which no one knows even exactly what that means. but when you see this kind of attack on di hires, how should people understand that in terms of the impact it has on the military? >> well, there's going to be a couple of effects from these

firings. and i'll tell you straight up, there's going to be erosion of morale within the force. it's going to cause institutional damage because there are going to be some people now, just like in the federal workforce, worrying about what they might say or what they do next and might get them fired. but it's also, most importantly, not only the long term readiness of the military, but also the public trust in the military. jen. many on the right, who have little experience with the military are saying, great, it's time to get rid of those di generals. well, those are on the left who don't understand or understand the role of military are also demanding. the military isn't pushing back against the administration. so that we've seen in our country is now going to infest the military with these kind of firings. and especially if there's more of them, it's going to be troubling. >> general hertling, thank you so much for joining us. i really appreciate it. coming up, brand new episodes of our new project, the blueprint, are out today. i'll show you part of my

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entire first order. when you sign up to be a new vip only@athletics.com. >> the first. >> 100 days, it's a critical time for our country, and rachel maddow is on five nights a week. >> now is the time. so we're going to do it. >> settle in the rachel maddow show weeknights at nine on msnbc. >> so two new episodes of our podcast, the blueprint, are out today. one is with longtime journalist jemele hill, and the other is with illinois governor j.b. pritzker. and in my conversation with governor pritzker, who is a billionaire himself, i asked him what it means when the richest man in the world starts calling the shots in washington. >> elon musk, let's focus on him. is in control of what the federal government is going to deliver for people who need it most. i worry deeply about what this means. you know, when the most powerful people in the private sector are now being

brought into government, where sometimes government has to play the role of keeping people in check? the role of government is often to keep anyone from getting too much power. and in this case, we're taking the most powerful, wealthiest person in the world. and the president of the united states is now bringing them into the oval office and having them literally run government for him. that's dangerous. >> you can listen to that episode, plus my conversation with jemele hill wherever you get your podcasts. that does it for me tonight. the rachel maddow show starts right now. hey, rachel. >> jen, congratulations on the new gig. it's very exciting. >> thank you so much. and i will just say, i watched you and nicole and lawrence honor our dear friend joy joy reid earlier, and it almost made me cry watching you all. and today is very much about thanking her