just kind of waiting in the wings, ready for the senate to say, well, where the senate will take this from here? >> well, let me just. >> say, even if they pass the house budget today, they're still very stuck. yes, the house and the senate are not only going in two different directions in terms of one bill versus two bill. the house. >> has produced. >> a budget that the senate just simply cannot process. there's two deep of cuts. they're touching medicaid in a way that the senate will never do it. and so if they have to weaken or soften the house budget to appease the senate, you've got a house problem. again, these these things just don't really come together. and i suspect they may realize that after a long time, even if the house gets through their budget passes it, i still think there's a very good chance they have to abandon this idea of one big bill and separate them into two, because they're just incompatible with each other. >> yeah. and then yet the argument for one bill in the first place was it's going to take so much energy and so much political capital. we only have the time to do it once. brendan buck on the balancing act. thank you, my friend. that was way too early for this tuesday morning. morning joe starts right now. >> we want peace. and i think

the initiative of president trump is a very positive one. but my message was to say be careful because we need something substantial for ukraine, but for the security of europe and france. and secondly, let's work together on the future to preserve security guarantees, meaning to be sure that this peace will be respected by russia. >> numerous times. >> today, president trump expressed confidence that this war. could really, in reality, end in a. >> few weeks. >> do you share. >> that confidence? >> i hope so. >> that is french president emmanuel macron appearing on fox news. yesterday after his. >> meeting with. >> president trump at the white house. >> we'll have much more. >> from their fascinating. >> talk and. >> the distinctly. >> different messages. >> from. >> the. >> leaders on the war in ukraine as they. >> sat side. by side. >> some really interesting. dynamics there. also ahead, we'll have. >> the. >> latest on elon musk's ultimatum email. >> to federal. >> employees, which. >> continues to cause major. >> confusion across. >> several agencies, with some of them telling their. >> employees to ignore it.

>> plus. >> we will. >> bring you an update on the legal. fight over the. >> trump administration's. >> ban of the associated. >> press. >> as well as the concerning comment. >> about the judge's. ruling from the. >> u.s. attorney for. >> the district of columbia. good morning. welcome to morning joe. it is tuesday, february 25th with joe and me today, the co-host, of course. >> of our. >> fourth hour and contributing writer. >> at the atlantic, jonathan. >> lemire. >> the host of. >> way too early, ali vitali and staff writer. >> at the atlantic. >> frank for. so joe. >> that side by side meeting between. >> macron and president trump in the oval office yesterday. >> just fascinating. >> to watch their body language and then, of. >> course. >> to. >> listen to the. >> substance of what they were saying. >> the body language, the substance of what they're. >> saying. >> the annual. handshaking contest. it's always fascinating when these two get together, you know. you never know exactly what is. >> going to happen. >> of course, talking about. >> ukraine. >> that was that was the.

>> context of the meeting. >> and of course. >> for much. >> of what went on yesterday, willie, and we're going to start talking about that. >> meeting and ukraine. >> but first i want to just briefly read from the wall street journal editorial page today, who aptly calls yesterday what it was a sad day for the united states at the. un and in one. >> part of. >> it, the wall street journal editorial page writes this. >> perhaps donald trump thinks that telling the truth about. russia will cause mr. >> putin to walk away. >> from ukraine negotiations. ronald reagan, who also sought peace and achieved it, never shrank from telling. >> the truth. about the soviet union. the truth was an essential. >> weapon in defeating what. >> reagan called. an evil empire. >> and they end by saying, it's hard to be optimistic if he won't tell. >> the. >> truth about which country.

>> started the war. so willie, really just a. >> stunning moment. >> yesterday where the united states of america sided with an invader and blocking. >> a. un resolution on the. >> third. >> anniversary of an invasion that the. >> entire world saw. >> they know who. >> the. dictator is, just like the new york post said to donald trump last week, the world knows who the dictator is. the world knows who invaded. >> whom. and the. >> world knows who is on the side. >> of freedom and who is on the side of tyranny. and right now. >> the united states, officially at the. >> united nations does not. >> yeah. >> and a stark contrast yesterday. as there. >> were remembrances. >> around the world. from western democratic nations. >> free nations. >> siding. >> of course, with ukraine, victims of the invasion three years ago. but the united states at the un, as you point out, breaking ranks with those european allies joining russia and north korea.

>> among others. >> in opposing a resolution that calls. >> for. >> russia to. >> withdraw from all occupied territory in ukraine, the u.s. instead proposed a. separate resolution avoiding territorial language, mirroring recent trump administration's suggestions that ukraine may have. >> to cede. >> land to get peace. ultimately, the united states abstained on its own measure after european amendments strengthened its wording. despite u.s. opposition. ukraine's resolution did pass with 93 votes. president trump was asked yesterday about american opposition to that u.n. resolution. >> can you send it. >> now and have a us vote. >> against the. >> un resolutions that ukraine. >> proposed, and also. >> the us proposed? >> i would rather not explain it now, but it's sort of self-evident. i think. >> so, john, if you look. >> at the front page of the journal, joe is reading from the op ed pages on the news side, us sides with russia, china against ukraine in un vote, we could add belarus and north korea to the

company the u.s. is keeping at the u.n. yesterday. yeah. >> international pariahs for the most part. you know. >> again. >> it's worth. >> taking a moment. >> to reflect on. >> how things have. >> changed over three years. >> when this war. >> began, we. >> heard from. president biden. >> locking arms with ukraine. >> and our. >> european allies to say. >> they. >> will support. >> kyiv till. >> the. >> very end. president biden. >> said that the. >> us backing of. >> ukraine's efforts. >> to. repel russia would. >> be unwavering. >> and, of. >> course. sent billions of dollars over time. >> for weapons and munitions. >> and now. >> over the. >> last few. >> days. >> we have. >> president trump. >> prioritizing his phone call in relationship with president putin. we have. a we have a meeting. >> our first talks. between us. >> and russian. >> officials in saudi. >> arabia, ukraine not invited. >> we have trump. calling zelensky a dictator. and being pressed as to whether. >> putin is the same will not. >> answer and. >> doing so repeatedly. >> and now we have. >> here at. >> the. >> un. >> the. >> united states, refusing to. >> to acknowledge in plain. >> language what happened. >> which. was this.

>> is a war of. >> russian aggression, that russia. >> is the one who invaded. >> and of course, subtext here. this war. >> could end at. >> any. >> time if vladimir. >> putin would simply. >> call off his troops. >> and we should. >> note. >> even as there. >> are now. >> talks, you know, the peace process may. >> be on. >> its way to beginning. >> you know, russia. is not only. >> continuing, but escalating their. bombardment of. >> ukrainian cities with. drone strikes and the like. >> so. >> you know, we saw. >> french president macron. >> there yesterday. >> flat out contradict trump. but a couple of moments. >> saying that no, no, europe gave. this money. >> to ukraine. we're not expecting it to. >> be paid back. >> you know, suggesting. >> this was. >> a. >> cause that europe would still. >> continue to. support as much. >> as there is. >> acknowledgment, willie. >> that. >> yes. >> that this we. >> are nearing. >> likely the. >> end stages. >> there. >> will be some sort of negotiations. >> trump suggesting that. >> a minerals deal may still be part of this, and that zelensky may be coming to the white house in the next week or so. >> that was a telling. moment in the oval office when a reporter said, you have called zelensky a dictator. is putin a dictator? donald trump would not answer and change the subject. meanwhile, president trump's

white house meeting yesterday with president macron came on the third anniversary of russia's invasion of ukraine. and while the two leaders were friendly, their views about the war and each other's support for ukraine were vastly different. the french president said a peace deal must not mean a surrender for ukraine. it must not mean a cease fire without guarantees, and it must allow for ukrainian sovereignty. meanwhile, president trump refused to call russian president vladimir putin a dictator and was focused mainly on recouping billions of dollars in u.s. aid to ukraine. macron briefly corrected trump when the president said europe was already getting repaid. >> zelensky a dictator? >> would you use the same words. >> regarding putin? >> i don't use those words lightly. i think that we're going to see how it all works out. let's see what happens. i think we have a chance of a really good settlement between various countries. and, you know, you're talking about europe and you're talking about ukraine as part of that whole

situation. the other side has a lot of a lot of support also. so let's see how it all works out. it might work out. look, you can never make up lies. the one thing you can't you can make up the money, but you can't make up the lies. a lot of lives lost, i think probably a lot more lives than people are talking about. it's been a it's been a rough war, but i think we're close to getting it solved. europe is loaning the money to ukraine. they get their money back. >> no, in fact, to be to be frank, we paid. we paid 60% of the total effort. and it was through, like the us loans guaranteed grants and we provided real money. to be clear, we have 230 billion frozen assets in europe, russian assets. but this is not as a collateral of a loan because this is not our belonging. so they are frozen. if at the end of the day, in the negotiation we will have with russia, they're ready to give to give it to us super. it will be loan at the end of the day and russia

will have paid for that. >> if you. believe that, it's okay with me, but they get their money back and we don't, and now we do. but you know, that's only fair. >> that's that's. just not true. >> it's really not. >> i mean, what what what macron said was true, frank, for. >> so. so much. >> about this is just double speak. we live in really an upside down world right. >> now. especially well domestically. and when it comes to foreign policy. >> but you actually have a piece. >> in the atlantic. and it's a man who. actually stands up to trump. and you say zelensky's willingness to. >> stand up. >> to president donald trump, holding true to american values in. >> the. >> face of american intimidation. >> was a perverse trading of places. >> and i think. back all the way. >> back to harry. >> truman in 1947, the truman

doctrine. the creation of nato, the berlin. >> airlift. >> the united. states standing up time and time again to those that the soviet union that the russians would want to oppress. what happened in 1980 when the soviets. >> were about to go. >> into poland, and the so-called porcupine doctrine, that the carter administration and doctor. brzezinski put together, saying, sure, go into poland if you want. we'll make sure it's. like swallowing. a porcupine. you don't want to do it. but what. >> we did. >> throughout the 1980s. >> our support for. >> solidarity all the way. >> up to the. berlin wall. >> going down the united. >> states. >> first in defeating naziism and then defeating soviet tyranny. we've always known. >> what side when we. >> were on, when it came to fighting. against soviet and russian aggression. yesterday. >> just absolutely.

>> stunning and a stinging rebuke to most everything american foreign policy has stood for, for the better for. >> 80 years. >> right. >> it's an. upside down world. >> and part of. >> the reason it's upside down. are the values. >> that. >> are. >> infusing trump's. >> foreign. >> policy here, that. >> ukraine. >> which was the. >> victim of. >> russian aggression, is not we're not even able to acknowledge that fact. >> and here. >> the president is trying to basically. >> extort ukraine. >> and its incredibly vulnerable state. >> zelensky initially. >> proposed this idea that there could be some sharing of his nation's. resources as a gesture of gratitude was his form of trying to suck up to. >> trump initially. >> but then when trump arrived, when scott. >> bannon arrived. >> in kyiv. >> to. negotiate the terms of this, it wasn't a negotiation. >> he pushed. >> and mob like fashion. he pushed a piece of paper across the desk to zelensky and said, these are the terms, and these were terms that were just

punitive that they were trying to zelensky, who's been a kind of. >> perpetual thorn in, in. >> in trump's side, going back. >> to that. very beautiful phone. >> call that they had that was provoked the. first impeachment. he's always had this this. animus towards the lensky. >> and here. that animus. >> was was being imposed on the entirety of ukraine. >> yeah. but frank, the thing about that deal is it would be one thing if you pushed these outrageous demands across the table at zelensky, siding with the country that's repelling russian aggression. but there was no security guarantee even attached to that. it was. >> give us all your. >> your money and we will give you nothing in return. it wasn't even like, you know, you said like you compared to them. wasn't even that because there was no no. protection afforded. it was give us all your money

and we give you nothing in return. right? >> he was. >> exactly there was. >> it was extortion. there was nothing on the other side for ukraine. and when zelensky first proposed that deal, he was saying, look, you know, we know. >> that you're. >> going to take risk in protecting us and guaranteeing our security. so here are some access to some of our valuable minerals. and in exchange, instead, trump was. >> behaving like a russian oligarch. and in the end. >> shouldn't russia be the one that has to pay some sort of price for having invaded ukraine? it's perverse to impose those costs. >> on ukraine. the victim? >> yeah. >> i mean, nato membership is a big step. and president zelensky had said he would step aside if his nation could be given a path, at least to nato membership. but nothing there so far from the trump administration. back here at home. there's growing confusion this morning now that elon musk imposed deadline has passed for federal workers to respond to an email justifying their positions

or to resign. the musk directed email was sent by the u.s. office of personnel management to government employees over the weekend. shortly after, musk wrote in a post on x that if they did not respond by 11:59 p.m. last night, it would be, quote, taken as a resignation. nbc news now has learned the department of government efficiency is expected to feed the responses from federal workers. who replied to that musk directed email into an artificial intelligence system to determine whether those jobs are necessary. i will decide their fate. that's according to three sources with knowledge of the system. but confusion continued yesterday ahead of the deadline. first, departments advised their employees not to respond, while others said they must respond. then the opm said responses were optional. then, musk said responses were required and failure to respond would result in termination. president trump appeared to agree, but added to the confusion by saying those who

did not respond would be, quote, sort of semi fired. >> i thought it was great because we have people that don't show up to work and nobody even knows if they work for the government. so by asking the question, tell us what you did this week. what he's doing is saying, are you actually working? and then if you don't answer like you're sort of semi fired or you're fired because a lot of people are not answering because they don't even exist. >> last night, musk followed the president by posting that federal workers who did not respond to the initial email would be given another chance, but failure to respond a second time would result in termination. the white house did not immediately respond to an nbc news request for comment on that post. let's bring in senior political columnist for politico, jonathan martin. so, jonathan, we're seeing some of the first, i guess, pushback from these individual departments to elon musk just having free reign with that chainsaw he wielded at cpac,

telling people, if you don't respond to this, we'll assume you're resigning and you're gone. and if you do respond, we're going to feed it into ai. and ai will decide whether you keep your job or not. what do you make of what we've seen, just even in the last 24 hours? >> yeah. i'm curious. >> for the ai function on semi fired. that's pretty advanced. pretty advanced ai software these days. apparently they can they can do the semi fired, but they're making it up as they go. >> i mean, it's. >> not more complicated. >> than that. >> i think trump obviously wants elon to bring the efficiencies of a private. >> company to the. >> federal government. and elon is doing to the federal government. >> are trying. >> to what. he has. >> done in the. >> private sector. it just doesn't work. that way. and the upshot of it, tragically, for the federal workforce and. >> for. >> the country, is that you. guys know what's going. >> to happen. >> the people who have the best opportunities and the. best options are the most talented are going to say, to borrow from the old country song, take this

job and shove it. they're going to walk. they're going to go in the private sector, take that pension early, move down to the low country. >> or 30. joe, and enjoy the rest of their life and their early 60s. and, you know, everybody else is going. >> to try to hang on. >> it's going. >> to go. to court and try. >> to keep. >> their job, but it's just. asking for the best people to walk, and it's totally self-defeating. >> that's the concern that we've heard, frankly, on this show, on other shows, people saying you're going to lose really talented minds that want to do their work for america. and on behalf of the public, i can tell you, i've heard that from the federal workers that i've spoken to, they're in agony not knowing what's coming next, but then also wanting to serve and having no place to put that service because of this. but then musk is also applying this same attitude of flaunting the norms of how these firings would even typically be done by by posing this same question to liberal members of congress, to senators saying, what did you do this week? give me five bullet points. i mean, that's the tone, right? >> yeah. and, you know, there's

no function on the ai search. i don't think for co-equal. >> branch. >> of government necessarily. >> i'd be interested. >> yeah, exactly. it has semi fired. >> co-equal branches. it's really. >> high tech stuff. >> no, look, he's trying to do. >> what he. >> did for tesla. >> for spacex, obviously for twitter and trying to apply that to the federal government. it's a very different scenario here. and it's not going to go as well here. here's where i. >> think it ends. >> i think trump. >> eventually is going to get tired. >> of. >> elon's a. >> antics, but. >> but b his unpopularity. >> if you look at the. >> polling data so far, something that trump cares deeply about. trump's numbers. >> are a lot. >> better than elon musk's. trump doesn't like somebody who's that unpopular around him. and i think once trump realizes that the depth of elon's unpopularity, whether it's, you know, this summer or this fall, i think his days are going to be numbered. >> well, you know, frank, for the whole idea that this is we need a ceo to run our government the way we, you know, they they run their own businesses, the

best ceos. first of all, there's a long and sorry history. of ceos performing horribly in government because they can't just sit there side office and do this, do that, do this, do that. and it usually doesn't end well. also, if you look at the best ceos, certainly over the last ten, 15, 20 years, they don't they don't do this. i mean, you look what elon has done with twitter. ask anybody if twitter is better today than it was when he walked in there. and the overwhelming majority of people will say no, but you take steve jobs. steve jobs later in life was asked, what's something that he learned? he said, you know, i learned you have to be a lot more patient with people. there were people that i got rid of too early. there were people i didn't stick with. there were people i didn't, you know, i they grew on the job and they

ended up being my most valuable employee. so you don't just go around and just fire somebody because that's the same thing. you look at the video and the video is culture. their entire culture is you're on board. we don't fire you. if you make $1 billion mistake, then we get the benefit of that billion dollar mistake because you won't make it a second or a third or a fourth time. and that is a culture of so many highly successful companies. i mean, if you are the world's richest man and you've made a lot of your money because of government contracts, again, the great irony of all of this, then perhaps you can afford to go in and blow up twitter and start firing people and gutting operations. it doesn't work that way when you're dealing with the national institutes of health, and there are young americans who are depending on the nih and

the research that nih provides to stay alive or alzheimer's patients, cancer patients. i mean, you just go down the list, if you look cuts to the faa, cuts to, you know, nuclear security and safety cuts, cuts to health organizations that are trying to stop the bird flu from being an epidemic, let alone a pandemic. we go down the list. this, i mean, for, for forget government. this is not how top ceos would work at their own companies. >> well, and the consequences of breaking twitter. i mean, we're bad. >> they turned. >> public square into. a toxic, racist neo-nazi playground. but, you know, the. consequences of breaking the breaking the federal. >> government are much worse. i mean, as. you're describing and. >> we saw this this last weekend with this email, you know, when you ask fbi agents to list the five things that they're working

on in a highly insecure sort of setting? well. >> i mean, that's. >> not showing tremendous sensitivity to their investigations. and when you have kash patel telling you. >> whoa, wait a minute, guy. >> you might be. >> moving too far. >> too fast. you know. >> there are certain things that. >> we don't want to move fast and break. you know that you've gone too far and you're dealing. with extremely dangerous territory. >> yeah. it's possible. >> we'll look back. >> upon this. >> as an. >> inflection point. >> in the early days of trump's second term. >> let's remember. >> i wrote on this. >> today for the atlantic. you know, this. >> began with. >> a trump post over the weekend. >> encouraging elon. >> saying he's doing good. >> work, actually telling him. >> to be more aggressive. >> musk and. his aides. >> at doj. >> then put together this email. >> plan that. >> was so haphazard. >> and. >> hastily written. >> we're told so. >> many. >> federal employees thought it was spam. >> they didn't. >> think it was real. they thought. >> it was a phishing attempt. >> then musk started driving it. >> on social. >> media and cabinet agencies. we're told. >> you know, a lot of their. leaders grew very unhappy. >> about this, thinking. >> this. >> was musk. >> encroaching on.

>> their territory. now, some of that is because. >> they want, you know, the. authority to dismiss. >> personnel at. >> their own. >> department if needed. they didn't want to cede any of that. >> power to musk. and we saw a real inflection point yesterday from. >> the. >> white house. i mean. >> really read through. >> the. >> chronology about. >> the shifting guidance. >> but i'm told. >> some senior. >> members. >> of the. >> west wing really. frustrated with musk. here and. >> quietly let. >> agencies know. >> this is optional. you don't have to have your employees respond to this. >> it's the first. >> time we've really. >> seen some. >> daylight between the. >> west wing and what musk is trying to do. >> we talked to some senior federal. >> employees yesterday, one. >> of whom deemed this a train wreck. another said it was. >> a form of. >> harassment that. >> they feel like. >> that they've. really soured here. >> on what musk. >> is trying to do. and really the backdrop. >> we should keep in mind. jay mentioned the polls that. suggest that musk's. >> approval rating is dropping. >> but we've also. >> had these. >> series of town halls in. recent days. >> some of us. >> in republican districts. >> where voters. >> republican voters. >> express a lot of anger. >> as to these.

>> indiscriminate. >> sloppy cuts. >> and at. >> a certain. >> point, the people in trump's orbit tell me, the president who still. >> likes musk. >> for now. >> that could reach. >> a breaking point. >> yeah, these jobs that are being hacked away with a chainsaw belong to republicans and democrats. and that's why you're hearing a lot of that at those town halls. we'll see as these members come back to washington, if actually say something about this to donald trump and pass on what they're hearing from their constituents. still ahead this morning on morning joe, the latest on the cease fire deal between israel and hamas, after both sides accuse each other of violating that fragile truce. we'll have the latest from tel aviv. also ahead, we'll reflect on the life and legacy of grammy winning soul singer roberta flack. boy, was she good. killing me softly, of course, comes to mind first. but joe, so many great songs from a singer who really left a mark on music. >> an incredible mark on music, and a bit in the wall street journal this morning that was

written by joe mu alum. just absolutely extraordinary. starts talking about a moment when she was 34 and singing and a warehouse that warehoused slaves and middle passage in ghana, but goes on and says this about her hits. flack's first album, first take, appeared in 1969 and didn't cut through commercially, but in 71, flack caught her break. clint eastwood heard an overlooked track from first take on the radio. the first time ever i saw your face, and knew immediately he had found the score for a climactic montage in his coming directorial debut, play misty for me, over the objection of her producer, flack had insisted on recording it at a shockingly slow tempo quote, deathly slow, she once called

it. the result dripped with emotion, with wistfulness. the following year, she became the first woman to win grammy for record of the year twice. as we go to break, listen to roberta flack and what what she called the quote, deathly slow, extraordinarily emotional head of hers. the first time ever i saw your face. >> the first time. >> ever i saw your face. oh. >> i thought. >> the sun. rose in your eyes.

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making that appointment can help you get ahead of stroke risk. this is no time to wait. israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu announced on saturday a scheduled release of more than 600 palestinian prisoners is being delayed. he cited the terrorist group's repeated violations of the ceasefire terms and its cynical exploitation of israeli hostages for propaganda purposes during several handovers to the red cross last week, hamas returned the bodies of four dead captives, saying they were those of two young children, their mother and an elderly man. but forensic testing conducted in israel found the mother's body was not returned. those remains were of an unknown person from gaza. a day later, hamas handed over the correct body, calling the incident a mistake.

meanwhile, israeli defense forces say forensic testing shows the children, a four year old and a ten month old. the youngest hostages, taken on october 7th, were not shot to death, saying the captors killed the babies with their bare hands. the idf says hamas then, quote, committed horrific acts to cover up these atrocities. the terrorist group denies the allegation, claiming the children died in an israeli airstrike. for the latest on all this, let's bring in nbc news international correspondent matt bradley, who joins us live from tel aviv. matt, what's the latest there? >> yeah. well, as you mentioned, this tenuous treaty that. >> has been been. >> in place for about. six weeks is now really, really close. to collapsing. >> and that's not just because of what you mentioned. >> earlier about. >> the. >> fact that the. israelis are now withholding. >> more than. >> 600 palestinian. >> prisoners in. >> israeli prisons. >> because of these, what. >> benjamin netanyahu. >> and. >> his allies have. >> called degrading and

humiliating. >> ceremonies during these. >> weekly handovers. >> what is. >> also a major. >> problem and a. >> ticking time bomb. >> for this. >> piece, is the. >> fact that we. >> are about to move from. >> phase one. >> the six. >> weeks of. handover. swaps. >> of israeli prisoners. >> and, excuse me, of israeli hostages for. >> palestinian prisoners in israeli jails. >> that's supposed to. >> end. >> on sunday. >> it was. >> already supposed to have been weeks of. >> negotiations between hamas and the. >> israelis to move. >> to phase two. >> as of march. >> 1st. >> this new. >> phase would. >> have seen a more permanent. >> peace in the. >> gaza strip. >> as well as potentially the full withdrawal. >> of the israeli military from the gaza strip. >> for the first time since those october. >> 7th attacks. >> so the fact that those negotiations haven't. >> been going on, despite. >> this looming. >> deadline, that is. >> a major, major roadblock. >> in the way of continuing this peace. and already we've. >> heard. >> from israeli. >> military leaders. >> and the israeli prime minister, benjamin. >> netanyahu. >> saying that they. >> are prepared. >> they are. >> girding for a renewed. >> fight in the gaza strip. they've even. >> brought reservists to the

areas around the gaza. >> strip in. >> order to prepare. for targets. >> within gaza, and. simply to go about the business of fighting hamas. now, one of the reasons why these. >> negotiations haven't really. >> been started. >> again in. >> earnest is because. >> both sides, once again, are. so far apart when it comes to the final terms of this deal. >> the israelis. >> have said they are not going to leave the. >> gaza strip. >> without seeing hamas. >> completely demilitarized or completely destroyed, whereas hamas have said, of course, they're not going to. essentially sign their own demise. >> as part of this peace treaty. >> so that. >> puts these two sides. >> so far. >> apart and makes these negotiations back to. >> where. >> they were before. >> almost impossible. >> with both. >> sides seeing. totally different realities on the ground. >> willie nbc. nbc's matt bradley live in tel aviv. thank you so much, matt. we really appreciate your reporting, frank. the situation in israel, among the israelis. from from

from people i've, i've talked to from interviews i've read from from reporting, i've seen from there those two babies being brought back in coffins without their mother. and then the way they were grotesquely paraded, the way every one of these hostages that have been through hell have been paraded by hamas. it has it has made as one person heard one person say, it has made even the most left wing israeli actually sound like, you know, a right wing hawk. it is hard for americans to understand the impact of, of, of the past week on the people of israel and just how angry they are that

that the what what the news that these babies were, were, were killed and tortured before they were brought back. many say it is the low point since october the 7th. as long as hamas will said it before. but it bears repeating now. as long as hamas is in charge of gaza, there can be no peace. and that was said during the war, and that has been underlined by their their continued barbaric actions. >> and it's even worse. >> than that. i mean, seeing that that. >> baby. >> the picture of the baby, the. >> infant over. >> and over is. >> just it is crushing. but it's a form of psychological. warfare that hamas is engaged in, that they they know that on this

moment, we're we're they're on the cusp of the next phase of this peace deal, that the manner in which these babies were released. it's just inflicting further psychological damage on the israeli psyche. >> it's reminding. >> israelis of. >> the. >> brutality that hamas has, is capable of and reminding them that, as you say, hamas is still there more than a year and a half after october 7th, that we're no closer to a brighter future, really, for gaza, because of their continued persistence. see how much longer this ceasefire holds? the atlantic's frank for frank, thanks so much as always. one week from today, the united states will levy tariffs on two of its closest trading partners, mexico and canada. jonathan martin has a new piece for politico titled how canada hopes to thwart trump. in it, john writes not since tim hortons began opening franchises south of the border has there been such a marketing offensive from

up north, and for good reason. canadian leaders are near a state of panic about president trump's threats of tariffs and annexation. the former would upend their economy. the latter would undo their country. one canadian official told me they felt like they were under an artillery barrage. so enter the maple leaf mafia. a john goes on to write. ontario premier doug ford was joined at the national governors association in washington by the premier of nova scotia, as well as canada's ambassador to the united states, kirsten hillman. other provincial leaders, as well as federal ministers, have regularly been in and out of washington on air canada since the election. meeting privately with trump aides and lawmakers of both parties. kudos to you for getting in tim hortons. you got to have it in any piece about canada. it's got to include it. so what do they feel like? what is the sincere level of panic inside canada? we've seen all the 51st state stuff

from president trump. we've heard canadians booing the national anthem at hockey games. but when you cut through all that, what is the level of concern from people who actually can make a difference here? >> it's significant. i've covered. >> the n.g.a. >> for the last. >> 15 years. >> i don't think. >> i've missed one in. >> that period of time. i can. >> never. >> remember any canadian presence. >> at. >> the. national governors meeting. >> let alone the. >> extent of what i saw over the. weekend here. >> and there's a couple of things going on. >> look, first of all, there is real concern about trump going through with these blanket tariffs. next month and what that would. >> do to. >> the economy. >> of canada. >> but the other thing is. >> there's a fractured. response because there's not a stable federal government right now in ottawa because trudeau is. >> stepping down. the liberals. >> are about to elect a new leader in march. and then obviously there's going to be a general election. so a lot of this work is being. >> done by. >> the individual. >> provinces, which are kind of like our states on steroids. they have a lot more power than our states do. so you've got not

just the federal government and obviously the ambassador in washington, but. you also have really these individual provinces, some more conservative, some more liberal, who are doing their own lobbying, literally have hired separate washington lobby shops to do. >> their work. >> and are just blanketing the governors meeting capitol hill. any trump aide. >> who will give them an. >> audience they'll. >> talk to, and the message. >> is, we're your friend. you know us like we do business together. the premier of ontario. doug ford, who i wrote, could be played by. john candy or chris farley in the movie, is a really. fascinating guy. >> he's toting this 25. page document. >> around which. >> talks about how ontario. alone is like the biggest trading. partner for like a dozen. >> states in. the us. >> so if they. want to know that this is a matter of a friendship, but also be business, willie. that you guys sell us. >> goods, we sell. >> you goods. why would you want to screw that up?

>> why would you want to screw that up? and yet you also hear from that same minister that you're talking about, that he talks to republicans and republicans say, yeah, i'm with you. this isn't a good idea. there's plenty of governors who look at the way that their states do business, who say, i'm with you, too. this doesn't work for my bottom line. >> yeah. and in. >> fact. >> it's pretty. >> easy to find. >> senators, governors of both parties who are. >> deeply uneasy. >> about the idea of a trade war with. >> canada, in part. >> because of. the retaliatory tariffs. >> let's take, for. >> example, andy beshear. >> the. governor of kentucky. >> mitch mcconnell. >> rand paul, the two senators. they're deeply. concerned about. >> the canadian. >> slapping tariffs on bourbon. and that is already. >> become a. >> sort of subplot in this is the canadian effort to block. us booze and to sort of, you know, tariff it. >> that would be devastating. >> for the economy in parts of kentucky. so we're already. >> hearing about. >> the kind of. pushback that the canadians could inflict. >> on us. >> by by tariffing our goods. >> senior political columnist for politico, jonathan martin, a

great piece, as always. we'll be reading it online. thanks, j mart, coming up, we'll turn back to the war in ukraine as our next guest examines how failures in america's foreign policy enabled the current crisis. retired u.s. army lieutenant colonel alexander vindman joins us to explain what went wrong and the new approach he says the us should be taking moving forward. morning joe is coming forward. morning joe is coming right back. my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis held me back. but now with skyrizi, i'm all in. thanks to skyrizi, i saw dramatically clearer skin. and many even achieved 100% clear skin. don't use if allergic. serious allergic reactions, increased infections, or lower ability to fight them may occur. before treatment, get checked for infections and tb. tell your doctor about any flu-like symptoms or vaccines. with skyrizi, nothing on my skin means everything. ♪♪ ask your dermatologist about skyrizi today.

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evidence wagging tails. >> is the president. >> zelensky a dictator? >> would you use. >> the same words. >> regarding putin? >> i don't use those words lightly. i think that we're going to see how it all works out. let's see what happens. i think we have a chance of a really good settlement between various countries. and, you know, you're talking about europe and you're talking about ukraine as part of that whole situation. the other side has a lot of a lot of support also. so let's see how it all works out. >> a dodge from president trump yesterday in the oval office, again declining to call vladimir putin a dictator. and he does use that term very casually when it comes to president zelensky. he used it to describe the democratically elected president of ukraine, volodymyr zelensky. trump's administration, meanwhile, voted yesterday with russia against a un resolution that condemned putin's invasion of ukraine and called for russia's immediate withdrawal from the country. that on the third anniversary of russia's

invasion of ukraine, let's bring in former national security council director for european affairs. retired u.s. army lieutenant colonel alexander vindman. he's the author of the new book titled the folly of realism how the west deceived itself about russia and betrayed ukraine. msnbc contributor our good friend mike barnicle joins the table as well. guys. good morning. so i want to get into the book in just a minute, but let's talk. there's so many directions we could go with this. the president's comments in the oval office being corrected by president macron of france on a couple of occasions. but what do you make of the un vote? as someone who understands the dynamics of ukraine, its relationship with russia, how this war started, who actually is the aggressor, that the united states would side with russia, with china, with north korea, with belarus at the un yesterday. >> it's disgusting. up is down, down is up. we're no longer the good actor. we no longer believe in the same values we did just a

month ago. so it's to me, i start to wonder. you know, i'm not big into conspiracies because i've seen government as a leaky sieve. things. things just don't stay secret. but now i'm starting to wonder is what? what does putin have on on trump that he's willing to bend over so hard to bend over backwards to, to really support putin's agenda? it doesn't make a huge amount of sense. he's not getting anything for it right now. he's giving away the farm. he's you know, i'm not sure what kind of deal he's making, where he's giving everything that his opponent wants, nothing in return. maybe the promise, the dangle of something in the future. but he's not getting anything. he's voting against ukraine, our allies in nato. he's calling zelensky a dictator. he's gladhanding and saying he's going to visit putin in in at the kremlin. this is just surreal and very, very wide departure. and it's really throwing a lot of folks for a loop. they don't know what to make of it. >> and putting the onus on

ukraine, putting the onus on president zelensky, who, of course, had their country invaded three years ago saying, if you want a peace deal, i can't make any security guarantees, but give me a whole bunch of your rare earth minerals that feed our technology industry. what is your concern about the kind of deal that ukraine might be forced to strike at the end of this war? >> you know, it's shocking how much continuity there is between trump and his deal making now and the historical pattern that that i write about in the folly of realism, everything is highly transactional. it's called the folly of realism, because realists believe that you basically our countries have interests. everything needs to be transactional. you want to maximize all your outcomes in each individual encounter. we're now at the poison kool-aid stage of realism. that's what you get with with donald trump. we have somebody that's utterly transactional. nothing that happened before matters. even in his first administration, he didn't really make any deals with with putin before. he's now trying again. he's now resetting the same mistakes that we did in

the past. and it's really boggles the mind how you have somebody not learn the lessons of the past and try to strike a deal with with russia while throwing ukraine under the bus. the ukrainians are willing to bend over backwards also. they're willing to compromise maximally to end this war, but they're not going to give up their sovereignty. they're not going to give up their their independence. russia is the one that needs to be pressured to come to the negotiating table. they're actually teetering in certain ways. their economy is quite brittle. they if they're pushed in the right direction with sanctions, if ukraine has some successes on the battlefield, continues to hold the russians and maybe achieve some military successes, you could see putin coming, coming to the table instead. the pressure is coming off putin. it's going on. zelensky again makes very little sense from a deal making perspective. it is maximally the folly of trump and maximally the folly of realism. >> yeah. mike barnicle, take the next question, but i just i want

to underline what the colonel has just said about the folly of realism in this case. you had george w bush in 2000. i think it was for saying he'd looked into the eyes of vladimir putin and saw his soul and liked what he saw. it was a few years later that vladimir putin, in effect, declared war on the west. in 2008, vladimir putin invaded georgia, the country of georgia and the united states and the rest of the world did absolutely nothing. you had in 2012, barack obama talking to medvedev, saying, you know, after the election, we can do some more things. in 2014, russia did more things. they invaded ukraine. despite the 1994 treaty, where ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons, and the united states and the rest of the world said that they would protect the integrity of their borders. then it was crimea, then it was the shooting down of commercial aircraft that continued. so vladimir putin, by 2021 understood one thing 2022. he

understood he could invade ukraine and the west wasn't going to do anything. well, this time the west actually did something. but again, it was the attempt over the past 20, 25 years for that realism that the colonel is talking about, that reset with russia, the reset that never came and was always seen as weakness by putin. putin has made a sucker of every president that has tried to deal with him. >> you know. >> joe, it's interesting that you mentioned george. w bush's observation that he looked. >> into. >> the eyes of putin. and saw his soul. >> john mccain's retort to. >> that was. >> he too. >> had looked into the eyes. >> of putin, and. >> he saw k, g. >> and b, and today. >> all. >> these years later. >> all of. >> us. >> and not just us here on this set and not just us here in this business, are probably kind of shocked. that the united states joined russia, iran and north

korea in voting against ukraine at the united nations. >> and, colonel. >> the subtitle of your book, how the west deceived itself about russia and betrayed ukraine. when did this deception begin? and who were the what were the component parts of this deception? >> the deception really began probably even before the collapse of the soviet union. what you had is in 1989, robert gates, the then the deputy national security advisor, approaching george bush and saying, hey, we should start thinking about the collapse of the soviet union. they put together this un group. secretive wasn't supposed to exist. you know, it seemed like far fetched notion that soviet union was going to fall apart. as they started to look at the problem, they settled in on russia breaking apart loose nukes, nuclear proliferation, and everything became about security. we threw out the idea of values, the fact that we needed to bring these regions as the soviet union fell apart into the fold, we underinvested there

and maximally into denuclearization. that's why we had the budapest memorandum. so it started all the way, the very, very beginning. and it carried forward, as joe mentioned, through all these different moments where we didn't we after the ukrainians gave up their nukes, we lost attention there. we focused back on russia and the relationship we wanted with them. orange revolution 2008. in the georgia war, it carried through all the way. and now we're at this moment where, again, donald trump is taking the worst mistakes, the absolute worst mistakes of the past 30 plus years and doubling down on them as if nothing happened before. >> putin is winning. >> putin is winning. and trump is, in a lot of ways he there's a moment where six months from now where it's clear that unless there's some sort of compromise, some sort of dirt he has on on putin, on trump, that trump is going to have to relook the situation right now. he's getting all these potential promises of relationships with russia. russia is not really that interested in that. they're interested in breaking things. they're interested in breaking the relationship between the us

and nato. we could end up at a point where six months from now, the us may turn its back on russia, but it will have already spoiled the relationships with ukraine, with nato, and we would be weaker and more isolated. so we're making the same mistakes over and over. there is a better way to do this. we start thinking about the centrality of values, interests. it's the idea of neo idealism that advocate in this book. it's the idea that we need to figure out how to avoid the bright, shiny objects of, you know, a deal on arms control or dangle from the russians on fighting terrorism. and if we think about the centrality of values to interests, it allows us to focus on what really matters. it's our relationships. it's our it's democracy, because that's where we have the biggest, the strongest relationships, the best prosperity. and that's that's the way ahead. >> so let's look forward a little bit. >> you just talked about potentially fracturing the relationship with the us. >> europe has. >> stepped up. >> to help ukraine. >> where does russia go from. >> here in the. post putin era wherever that. >> whenever that occurs.

>> yeah, that might still be some time away. we're talking probably it could be as late as 2036. that's that's a long ways away. i don't think that at that point putin will be quite old, but somebody else will come in that won't have that consolidated power, won't be it won't have ruled for 30 plus years. so it will be a change. that might be an inflection point. but for the foreseeable future, the only thing we could do is make sure that russia takes an l on this war. that's the only way that we pin russia back and get them to maybe not think of military aggression as the tool, a viable tool to achieve their ends. they're going to in the meantime, what they're going to do is they're going to try to pander to trump, indicate that there's a relationship to be had there once that they've done enough damage in the relationship between the us and nato, they're going to start probing what what could can they start to affect nato directly is if nato article five is no longer ironclad,

maybe they start hybrid warfare in the baltics. so this is going to get much, much more dangerous than than we see today. as bad as it is at the moment. >> putin clearly knows how to handle this president starting to get exactly what he wants out of this deal. the timely new book, the folly of realism how the west deceived itself about russia and betrayed ukraine, is on sale now. author and retired u.s. army lieutenant colonel alexander vindman. colonel vindman, thanks for being here. congrats on the book. >> thanks for. >> having me to see you. still ahead, david leonardo of the new york times joins us with new reporting on the one country in the world where liberals are winning in the face of right wing populism. we'll tell you where that is. plus, is the right wing media machine hitting a wall. columnist philip bump explains his new piece for the washington post. also ahead, we'll speak with the director and producers of the new netflix thriller zero day, which stars robert de niro as a former president investigating a cyber attack while battling struggles of his own. the series is great.

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>> and thicker. >> i finally feel like myself again. >> well guys, i'm having. >> an. >> odd day. >> this morning. >> i. >> got an email from nbc asking what i accomplished last week. >> yeah, they need to. >> respond with five accomplishments. >> from the last week. federal workers wrote. >> back, i received. >> this email. >> i opened this email. >> i read this. >> email, i. >> laughed at this email. >> and i deleted this email. >> five you.

>> know. >> what's so. >> horrible about our system now? and the corruption that. >> lies within it? >> we're so. >> numb to it. we actually. >> tout tiny. >> cracks in that exploitation as victory. >> president touting. >> the first ever negotiations with pharmaceutical companies. >> to. >> lower the. >> cost of ten drugs. >> today. >> i'm proud to announce. >> that medicare. >> has reached an agreement with all manufacturers on all ten drugs selected in the first round of negotiations. >> oh. >> can it be. >> the companies. >> we subsidize with billions of. >> dollars are allowing us the. >> privilege to. >> negotiate the price of ten of their drugs and ten is all of them right? it would be embarrassing if it was a small drop in the bucket, and that the american people didn't expect that we should negotiate for all their drugs, because we've already paid for. >> it with our subsidies. >> thanks. come on. all right.

>> yeah. >> all right. >> i'll be going to the. hospital today. >> so there are places where we can find savings. and the government, by the way, the. jimmy's joke about nbc sending emails. what have you done this past week? chris hayes and i talk all the time about the fact that we would get those for our first six, seven, eight years at msnbc. what did you do this week and why should we keep you on? so obviously chris and i answered correctly, but but chris, chris was chris. chris and i were on that. we're like on that conan nbc contract, right? you get the contract for a week and then another week and then another week, just like jimmy. i guess. >> it's like that. those nba ten day contracts, it's worked out

well for both you and chris, though, joe, i should say jonathan lemire, mike barnicle, ali vitali is still with us. joining the conversation, senior writer for the dispatch, david drucker and senior writer at the new york times, david leonhardt, good morning to you both. good to see you. there is new confusion this morning at federal agencies after elon musk issued an ultimatum over the weekend. he says requiring government employees to justify their jobs. maybe not, though. nbc news senior white house correspondent gabe gutierrez has the latest. >> president trump is. >> defending an ultimatum from. billionaire elon musk aimed at slashing the federal bureaucracy. >> there was a lot of genius in sending it. >> but there are also new. >> signs of a potential. >> power struggle. >> within. >> the administration over how to carry out the president's. campaign promise to. >> downsize the government. >> musk, who heads the administration's. department of government efficiency, or doge, posted on x over the weekend that federal workers needed to explain what they got done this week, saying he was acting on the president's instructions, adding. >> failure to. >> respond will.

>> be taken as a resignation. >> then the office of personnel management sent an email to more than 2. >> million federal workers. >> titled what. did you do last week? it asked those workers. >> to. respond with five bullet. points detailing. >> what they accomplished. >> what he's doing is saying, are you actually working? and then if you don't answer, like you're sort of semi fired or you're fired. if people don't respond, it's very possible that there is no such person or they're not working. >> but the trump administration. changed course, telling heads of federal agencies responding was voluntary, and that a non-response to the email does not equate to a resignation. still, three sources with knowledge. >> of the process. >> tell nbc news the bullet points from those who do respond will. be fed. >> into an. advanced ai system. to determine. >> whether someone's work is mission. critical or not. >> there had been growing confusion. >> after some. >> agency heads, including trump's cabinet picks, issued conflicting guidance. >> to workers. some agencies. >> including the state justice and defense. >> departments, told.

>> employees either to. >> delay. >> responding or. >> not respond at all. director of national intelligence tulsi gabbard. writing given the inherently. >> sensitive and classified nature of. >> our work, employees should not respond. >> today, trump. >> downplayed any conflict. >> that was done in a friendly manner. only things such as perhaps marco and state department, where they have very confidential things, or the fbi where they're working on confidential things, and they don't mean that in any way. combatively with elon. >> amid mounting protests, including this upside down flag. >> at yosemite. >> national park, the president and musk keep slashing the size of the federal. >> workforce. laying off more than 1600 foreign aid workers. >> at usaid. >> in missouri. live. alvarado is among thousands of workers. >> let go from the irs. >> the fact that there's going to be even less workers here now, you know stuff is going to take even longer. and these were real people with real jobs. >> thanks so much for that report, gabe gutierrez. yeah, there's chaos right now. i mean,

there's chaos, obviously, from not just the workers who have been fired and then brought back to work, whether they're working on nuclear safety or on food and drug safety. also, of course, real concerns from some republican members of the senate and from the house who were watching programs in their districts gutted red state, america is going to suffer far more than blue state america. and in many instances. and wait till the medicaid cuts start coming. but but david drucker also, of course, we saw now some of donald trump's own federal agency heads are concerned. and you talk to like conservatives. and by conservatives i mean people that actually want smaller government. well, most of them say is this isn't going to do anything. at the end of the day, this is just creating chaos. this isn't going to do anything to pay down a $36

trillion debt, or to pay down the $20 trillion in in new debt that will accumulate over the next decade if their reconciliation bill passes. so at the end, some small government conservatives in government are asking, why are we doing this? >> yeah. look, i mean, if you want to deal with the debt and the deficit, you're going to have to reform entitlement programs, medicare and social security in particular. not to mention medicaid, which, of course, is a big topic of debate in the reconciliation bill. none of that is being dealt with. medicare and social security in any of these discussions or legislation that's coming together. and so you could make a case that we're going to trim where we can, because actually getting it done is politically untenable, meaning voters don't want you to touch medicare and social security. i think the problem here, joe, is twofold. one, you know, the administration is telling voters via this department of government efficiency effort that eliminating waste, fraud

and abuse will solve the problem. and americans love to hear that because they have long believed that they don't believe you have to touch entitlement programs. we know the numbers just don't add up. and so you're giving people once again false hope that something can be fixed. why do voters keep getting upset with both democrats and republicans over the years and ping pong ing back and forth at least this century, because they're sold a bill of goods, it doesn't come to fruition. and then they go and try somebody else. you know, the other thing here it was it was refreshing to see the cabinet secretaries actually try and protect their authority, because you wonder who they're working for and how much purview they have as a, as a cabinet official. if they can't decide what their own employees are going to do. obviously, subject to a directive from the president. it's just that it's been unclear that directives from musk have come to the president. and one of the reasons it's unclear is because, one, they won't explain it, and

two, it's not a transparent process. now, the president doesn't have to tell anybody what he's doing. the doj's effort is not subject to the freedom of information act, which is something i've reported for the dispatch. it's under the presidential records act. so they can keep the secret all they want. i think politically, this would work better for them if they explained more what the purpose is, why some employees were being laid off, why some programs and agencies were being trimmed or eliminated. and i think that that republicans on the hill would feel better. but voters also that are concerned about this might feel better. >> well, i mean, they don't know why. i mean, there is no plan. there is very little transparency. and obviously, when you're firing people at the faa or tsa or people that are responsible for nuclear safety, and then you're desperately trying to get them back, desperately trying to get health care workers back, desperately trying to get back people in the fda. obviously, there is no long thought out plan. it's just

random. and, willy, i want to follow up on something that david said, and that is you're not going to come close to paying off a $36 trillion debt. you're not going to make any headway with these sort of random cuts with the chainsaw. i mean, it's not cutting down trees. if we want to use that metaphor for the budget. he's trimming little leaves here, but causing massive pain and massive disruption. i said it before, i'll say it again. you know, about 90% of the budget, 90% of the budget, defense spending, medicare, medicaid, social security, interest on the debt. we spend more money paying off interest on our $36 trillion debt. then we do our military, and we spend a hell of a lot on our defense budget. willie. so that's about 88, 89, 90% of the

budget. what we're talking about with with these random and ill considered cuts is just a small, small percentage of the budget, and it's not going to have any long term impact fiscally. but it what it is going to do is it's going to cause a lot of pain, a lot of suffering for a lot of americans in red state america and in blue state america. >> yeah, it's performative sometimes literally like when he's holding a chainsaw on a stage, wearing sunglasses in front of a crowd, talking about what he's going to do. but you have to your point, joe. the fda just yesterday scrambling to rehire people that suddenly they said, we have to have these people inspecting food. we have to have these people looking at medical devices. these are important people who keep people safe and keep americans alive. you can't just take your chainsaw to them in a way that looks like disruption, but actually is just chaos. david and i think, you know, there was

this belief among some people who support donald trump or voted for donald trump, that elon musk, he's the world's richest man. he just knows better than everybody else. he's going to do what he's done to his companies and make them efficient and make them successful. well, that's an open question at twitter. but this does this meet the wall at some point? does the rubber hit the road where finally we're starting to see it in some agencies saying, hey, you don't have to answer that email. you don't have to resign. we need you in this job. when does the real pushback begin here? >> i mean, i do think. >> that the trump administration. >> is more. >> vulnerable on this issue. >> than. >> on. some other issues. >> i mean, you know, on signing the executive order, on on who can play girls sports. the trump administration is very much on. >> the side of. >> public opinion. >> but on some. >> of these. >> issues, when it goes from just being federal employees to being as. >> you're. >> talking about, actually affecting the. >> food supply. >> affecting benefits. >> people get. >> you really can imagine that it creates political. problems for them. >> in ways that. >> other parts of their. >> agenda does not. >> all right. well, so the

pentagon says it will lay off more than 5000 civilian probationary workers this week in the first of what officials say likely will be a wave of much larger dismissals at the defense department. in a statement, senior official darren zelnick outlined plans to reduce the department's civilian workforce by 5 to 8% in an effort to produce efficiencies and refocus the department on the president's priorities. meanwhile, defense secretary pete hegseth said president trump's abrupt firing of the nation's senior military officer, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. air force general c brown jr. wasn't unusual and was within his rights, while also suggesting more firings could be coming. let's bring in new york times correspondent helene cooper, who covers national security issues. helene, so what's coming down the pike here at the pentagon? >> hi. thanks for having me. well, well, the pentagon is sort of bracing for many more

firings, both among general level officers. there was a list that was going around on the hill among republican senate staffers last week that included other senior level officers. but then also on the other side of the coin is the probationary employees. you've seen that happen across other federal departments. last week, the pentagon apparently workers have been told that there's some there could be as many as we've heard, everything from 5500 to 55,000 employees probationary, who could be let go. these people are departments and bases all over the world. as you know, the defense department is a massive organization. and so there's a lot of upheaval right now at the pentagon. people saw people are walking on eggshells.

there's still a lot of people seem to be still reeling a lot from what everybody is calling a friday night massacre last week. >> yeah. and certainly. >> there's a. list that's. >> been circulating in certain congressional. >> committees about that. >> has other names of other. >> top military officials who also could be. >> shown. >> the. >> door sooner. >> or later. >> but i wanted to. focus you. >> on on the lawyers, the jags from all. these different. >> departments who. >> have their branches of the armed. >> forces are all also dismissed. >> and we heard from secretary defense. >> hegseth over the weekend. >> flat out say. >> that. >> you know, he they. >> were. >> putting in replacements who would not stand in the way. >> of what. >> the. pentagon and. >> the trump administration wanted to achieve. talk to us about the. >> reaction you've heard from the military communities about all that. >> the sad. >> thing is, you know, it's probably a much bigger deal, at least in, in actual practice than the high level firings, because these are the lawyers.

these are the and he's he's gotten rid of the jags for the both the air force for the army and for the navy. and that's a really big deal. these are the guys who are on the field on the battlefield basically enforcing and reminding american troops about what they call the ucmj. that's the uniform uniform code of military justice. they're telling you what is legal and what is not. what's a war crime? what is not. you can't shoot people in the legs. you can't well, you can't shoot american protesters in the legs. now, i'm conflating conflating stuff, but they are guiding you, guiding troops so that troops at on the battlefield can make sure that they're not violating. they're not committing war crimes. it's such a big deal. but pete hegseth has made sort of the jags his his his nemesis. he when he was a fox news anchor

manage was able to get trump to commute the pardon navy seals and special ops guys who were convicted of war crimes and removed. and trump intervened on that at the prompting of pete hegseth. you remember that that senate, his senate hearing where jack reed went after him on on jazz and on his disdain for jags. but this is this is actually a really big deal. and it sort of it goes to the larger point of you have a president now who wants to shape the military leadership and the military itself, but definitely the military leadership in his own image. the whole idea of, you know, you want an apolitical military. you want separation from of the military, from politics. trump has never really quite gotten that. he looked at the generals in the past, and he looked at the senior leaders of the military as he wanted them

to be his guys. and he didn't understand the fact that there was supposed to be by, you know, by law and by constitutional mandate, there's supposed to be some sort of distance between between the two. they're not an extension of the republican party. they're not an extension of mr. trump. but he doesn't really see it that way. and you're seeing this play out on a whole number of levels, but particularly when you look at what defense secretary hegseth is saying about jags, that's exactly what he's talking about. >> all right. new york times correspondent helene cooper. thank you so much. and make no mistake. all of us should understand that so many people in the military, so many leaders in the military are concerned about the direction firing of jags who actually made sure that the united states was held to standards of international law and standards during combat

because, as john mccain would say, at the end of the day, that protects our troops as much as it protects anybody else. david leonhardt, you have a new piece for new york times magazine titled, in an age of right wing populism, why are denmark's liberals winning? in it, you examine how denmark's liberals have managed to get tough on immigration and create a year long, years long winning coalition. you know, one of my old favorite sayings about american politics was, as goes burlington, so goes france. in this case, though, as goes denmark in 2025, so goes denmark. they seem to be standing alone here. how have they done it? >> yeah, i mean. it's really. >> it's really striking. not only has the center left government won reelection since covid, which is really hard to find anywhere, right in in the us and canada. in germany, these governments are falling. but the far right in denmark has really been marginalized. it's quite small. >> and so. >> basically what's happened is,

is that the center left government in denmark, the social democrats, the prime minister's name is meta frederiksen. they've gotten really tough on immigration and they've said, look, we are not going to allow our immigration levels to soar. >> to the levels that they have. >> in sweden, in germany, and in the last few. years in the united states. and on every other issue, they've been very progressive. they've expanded abortion rights. they've done this big, ambitious climate law. they've made the retirement system. so it helps lower income workers more. and it's. basically taken all these blue. collar workers who really don't like high immigration, in part because it's their communities that tend to be on the front lines of it. >> we we've seen. >> this in southern texas. we've seen it in queens, in new york. and they've taken immigration kind of off the table as a as a major issue. and so the blue collar voters that in so many other countries have drifted to the right. >> or even the far right. >> are instead. >> voting on things like retirement benefits. and they're voting for the. party that's on. >> the left there. >> well, and, mike, this is

something we've been warning about for a decade on this show right now that that basically no meaningful immigration laws or no meaningful immigration restrictions. and like, whether you're talking about france or in germany, has led to the rise of the far right, where you had angela merkel let in over a million syrian refugees with, with, with very with, with very little screening. it caused a backlash. and we were concerned. we've been concerned over the past decade that this would lead and said it to the, to the far right, to extremists in france and germany and across europe. and that's exactly what's happened. but it looks like denmark got it right all along. >> you know. and it. >> raises an. >> interesting question. i would think it's an interesting question. i hope it is an interesting question. have americans and. >> american politics become so enthralled and wrapped up. >> in daily performance theater

that they take. >> their eye off the. >> ball, that the. job of government isn't just performance theater? the idea that prime ministers or presidents. >> it's not. >> just performance theater as in finland. >> how did they. go from. performance theater to successfully doing something? >> i mean. >> one of. >> the interesting things. >> that when i met with the prime. >> minister in denmark. >> and i. >> met with the other people. >> they said. >> look. this can't just be. >> for political. >> reasons, right? >> you can't. just say. and i think. >> that's what joe biden and kamala harris did in the last year of the campaign. they tried. >> to make it. >> seem like they had suddenly gotten tough on immigration. they said, this. >> actually has to. >> be part of your overall philosophy. >> and we. >> believe that having modest immigration, denmark is still becoming more diverse. it's just not doing so. >> at the rate. >> that other countries in europe are having. modest immigration is good. >> for the working. >> class, because what ended up happening in this country, in other parts. >> of. >> of europe. >> is that. >> a. >> lot of. >> relatively affluent people, professionals. >> college graduates. >> lecture working class people. >> you need to. >> accept more immigration. if

you don't, you're hateful. but the reality is, is. >> it's the communities, the. >> very diverse. communities in south. >> texas. >> in queens, on the south. >> side of chicago, in parts of denver. these are the communities. >> that deal with. >> the strains of immigration. these are the communities that say, hey, this is just. >> too rapid. >> it needs. >> to. >> be slower. and in denmark, they've actually listened to working class voters, and. >> that's why they've. >> done it. and it's not just performative. it actually translates to policy. >> and i know a lot of. >> democrats say joe biden tried that and it didn't work. but i think that's wrong. joe biden and kamala harris never acknowledged that they were changing their policy. they never acknowledged the strains this created on these communities. and then they kind of tried. >> to do this late flip. >> on immigration, and voters didn't find it credible. >> and those very communities are words. >> we saw. >> trends toward trump in. >> this past election. >> and i will say i spoke recently to a senior former biden official who acknowledges their biggest regret was how they handled the immigration issue, not addressing it strongly enough to start and then not using the right rhetoric when they did speak about it, when the change came. >> too little, too late. we'll see if democrats in america are

listening to democrats and denmark, senior writer for the new york times, david leonhardt. david, thanks so much. i appreciate it. still ahead on morning joe, our next guest says right wing media is working to convince americans president trump is doing a good job. but a large part of the country is unconvinced of that. the washington post's philip bunck joins us next with some new reporting. morning joe is coming right back. >> here we go. >> here we go. >> here we go. oh. baby: liberty! mom: liberty mutual is all she talks about since we saved hundreds by bundling our home and auto insurance. baby: liberty! biberty: hey kid, it's pronounced "biberty." baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: bi-be-rty! baby: biberty! biberty: and now she's mocking me. very mature. mom: hey, that's enough you two! biberty: hey, i'm not the one acting like a total baby. mom: she's two. only pay for what you need ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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real value from your life insurance when you need it with abacus. >> i would. >> like to know. >> what you. feel in this issue. >> of an unelected person having so much power. >> he does not. have the ability to do an. action by his own. he just. is looking to the left hand of. >> the president. >> united states. >> as far as somebody who is not elected. >> every president. >> has appoints people under them. some of those people have to be approved by the us senate. >> somebody does not. >> have to be approved by the senate. >> so that is republican congressman glenn grothman of wisconsin saying this is what every president does while he faces a hostile crowd of constituents. that was on friday. they, of course, concerned about federal layoffs and government cuts that affect

them. he's not the only republican facing backlash. last week, several house lawmakers in red states like texas, georgia and oklahoma also had their town hall meetings turn contentious. when doge and elon musk came up. now, many republicans are asking for a more considerate approach to the way the trump administration is handling those doge cuts, adding to some of the frustration, republicans have been given a little heads up about doge's moves, nor have they been given any messaging guidance. let's bring in columnist of the washington post, philip bump, his latest piece, which discusses some of these confrontational town halls, is titled the right wing media machine is hitting a wall. phil, it's always good to have you on the show. so let's talk about this moment, which we're seeing really spill out into some of these town hall meetings, frustration of why is this guy we didn't vote for coming in and taking all of our jobs and firing us willy nilly and wielding that chainsaw? how does that factor into what the you call the right wing media

machine is doing? >> yeah, i think it's important to recognize that those town halls are a rare moment in which a. republican elected official from washington. >> d.c. >> faces exposure to something outside of the universe of media coverage that the right dominates. right. and we've long. talked about the fact that the right has its own media infrastructure, and it exists in this bubble. one of the things that's happened over the course of the past several months with trump's return to washington, is that it has enveloped d.c. as well, that the right wing bubble now controls d.c. and the federal government in a way that didn't usually. >> and so. >> for republican legislators. >> who rely upon. >> what's happening in. >> fox news. >> or rely upon what's happening on twitter for information and for an understanding of what the base is agitated about, they are hearing a whole different set of things that is. reinforced within that bubble that is different than what a lot of americans are hearing. and we talk about trump's, you know, he's coming back and he's all chuffed up and he's feeling very bold. but he won very narrowly. and there's tens of millions of americans who disagree with him and who don't subscribe to that universe of information. and that's who glenn grothman and

other folks are encountering. the people who are not subject to that universe in which false claims elevate very quickly and are spread rampant. >> and president trump, if you listen. >> to him. >> says that he. >> comes in with one of the biggest mandates that any. >> president has ever had. >> and, you know, and republicans obviously do control both houses of congress, though, do so. >> very narrowly. so talk to us about how this right. >> wing media, the bubble, reinforces the idea that could then lead to overreach. >> yeah. i mean, look, there is a really remarkable the extent to which it is also self-reinforcing. right. so there are claims that are made. and jesse watters from fox news encapsulated it very, very accurately, i think, last week in which he said that there are claims that are made in social media, and elon musk retweets them, and joe rogan puts them on his podcast and then fox news. and by the time it gets on fox news, millions of people have heard them. and that's true. it's 100% true. the difference is that it used to be the role of the media was to say, actually, we're not going to amplify fake things. we're not going to say, you know, oh, look, everyone's talking about this. if what they're talking about is false. and so the

challenge for republicans, not for trump, because he exists in this universe and he helps create this universe, but for republicans who are responsible to constituents, is that they exist in a world where they don't hear any of the contrary information, they literally don't. they hear from their base and they hear from, you know, their their colleagues and their peers that this is how the world is when that's not how the world is. and then they go out into the world and they learn how the world is, and it can be jarring. >> what are you. >> talking about? jesse watters last week, he also talked about hearing from 20 year vet who served his country for 20 years, got a job at the pentagon and then got dodged. and of course, that came as a great surprise. and that's something that i saw when we were fighting to balance the budget is, you know, a lot of people that were saying balance the budget, balance the budget, balance the budget. and as we were going there, time and again, you would hear from constituents who say, yeah, balance the budget. but you do understand you guys overstepped here or you overstepped there. and it's very different when

we're going through subcommittees and committees. and then, you know, it was actually a more thought through process than just a guy holding up a chainsaw at cpac saying, i'm going to cut everything wildly. david drucker, i would tell you politically what what is just politically, what is fascinating about this is if you look at donald trump's poll numbers, he has gone down in some polls. but if you look at his rcp average, if you look at his 538 average, he's he's about he's about, you know, even 48, 48 maybe plus one one and a half about where he was during the election. not so for elon musk. i've seen one poll after another that shows elon musk upside down underwater. it's almost like donald trump has created this political cocoon where so many of those people, those town hall meetings, so many people complaining to pollsters, they're complaining about elon musk, as if elon musk is doing this all on his own. but there

is no doubt. you look at poll numbers and there is a divide now where elon musk seems to be taking on water politically, more so than donald trump. >> yeah. well, listen, you know, musk only operates at the pleasure of the president. but i think this gets to the difficulty of trying to game out the political repercussions of what musk is doing in any district. as you know, a strong republican district or a strong democratic district, there are tens of thousands of voters that vote the other way. they can flood town halls and they can voice their opinions. what you're looking for here, to see if things are going to change is whether or not republican voters in republican districts are showing up at these town halls and complaining about all of the cuts that musk is delivering or is promising to deliver. that's really what you want to look at, because donald trump remains incredibly strong with republican voters, and republicans in congress are going to be sort of loathe to go

against him. they're going to be loathe to go against musk because of the media platform that he controls, unless they feel a real severe backlash. and look, part of this isn't necessarily the politics of what happened in the election. as impressive as trump's trump's victory was in terms of the demographic shift and what happened in the swing states. as philip said, it was narrow. and look, you can tell by my hair, i'm old enough to remember what a real landslide looks like. and this was not a real landslide. it was just an impressive victory. but when you're talking about the government, you know a lot of people believe that there is plenty that could be fixed. so it's not enough politically to just complain about the cuts and the firings. and let's just take the irs as an example. i don't know many americans that think the irs is their friend or an amazing agency, but if you tell them that the cuts at the irs resulted in their refund showing up late, then they're going to start to have a

problem. and i think that's how you have to look at what the administration is doing with these cuts. is it making people's lives better, or do people voters believe it's making their lives worse? and that's really the political crux of all of this. >> i think that's important. where we keep talking about the rubber is meeting the road in congress. no, no, it's meeting the road back in their districts. and in my conversations with lawmakers who just spent time at home, many of them said that some voters might just be tuning in on this, but they are concerned. they are confused. and that is a key point in this, especially in conversations about medicaid, which the house is going to try to move forward with its reconciliation budget today. and it includes about 800 billion in cuts through the energy and commerce committee. and that is specifically on medicaid, though my understanding is speaker johnson is trying to assuage those concerns and say, okay, we might be finding those cuts elsewhere, but i do think it's a fascinating political dynamic that musk is both a built in enforcer, but then also willing. he is also potentially a built in scapegoat for when the politics of this goes upside

down for republicans, and they need someone keen to blame. but i think it's really important that we keep reminding people musk serves at the pleasure of the president, and very much is saying that all of this is being directed by trump. this is not some separate thing that musk is doing on his own. >> yeah. and the president said just a couple of days ago that that musk should be more aggressive than, than he's being right now. mike, another place where the rubber will meet the road is with inflation. donald trump said he was going to cure inflation on day one. i was at the diner two days ago. he got a big thing on the front of the menu. he says, we've got a $1 surcharge if you're ordering eggs. that also like job cuts, cuts through this media machine. >> oh, yeah. >> and that leads. >> to i don't mean to pick on. >> them. >> but the glenn. >> the congressman. >> from. >> wisconsin we. >> just had on. >> there, how. >> close are. >> we to seeing so many. >> republicans who were used. >> to fox news. and being on fox programs. >> now petrified of their own voters? >> i think we're very close. i mean, i think that the odds we see a lot of town halls with

people being confronted like that are going down by the day, and no politician ever wants to do that. i do think it's important to note to this point the idea of pushing forward with all these cuts very quickly, that's more compelling for social media, that's more compelling for this media machine. they could do it slowly, they could go to committees. but that's not what gets the attention. that's not what gets the virality. that's what drives us. and this is what puts people at goldman in trouble. >> the new piece is online now with the washington post columnist philip bump. phil, thanks so much. we appreciate it. senior writer for the dispatch, david drucker, thank you as well. coming up next on morning joe. >> 3402 people died. >> it is a series. everybody's talking about the new netflix series zero day, starring robert de niro, along with an all star cast. the creative team. look at this crew behind the thriller, joins us next in studio. morning joins us next in studio. morning joe is pronamel clinical enamel strength can help us to keep our enamel for a lifetime.

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>> deal won't last forever. scan the code. go to kind science.com, or call 856. that's 850. >> 6elen to. >> order right now. >> i just want people. >> to. try kind science. >> we're going to start with breaking news on capitol hill. >> mounting questions. >> over the future of tiktok in the us. >> reporting from. >> philadelphia. >> el paso. >> in the palisades, virginia. >> from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. >> marlon. >> thanks for coming. >> madam president, so. >> what's. >> the plan? >> congress is authorizing a special zero day commission. hunting down anyone. >> who aided and abetted. >> this horrific attack. >> he's just going to. >> grab people off the. >> streets without warrants. >> actually, you are. this is the greatest affront to civil liberties ever attempted. >> ex-president george. >> mullin is not only. a wannabe

tyrant. >> he's a deeply troubled man. >> i'm on to you, georgie. >> sir. >> is there something going on here that you're not telling me about? >> ooh, that is a look at the new netflix series titled zero day. it stars academy award winning actor robert de niro as a former u.s. president pulled out of retirement to lead the investigation of a crippling and deadly cyber attack. de niro's character must contend with a fractured media and political environment, as well as his own personal demons. joining us now the co-creators, executive producers and writers of zero day, eric newman and noah oppenheim. co-creator and executive producer michael schmidt, who is also, of course, an investigative reporter at the new york times and director and executive producer lesli linka glatter. so great to have you guys all here with us. i mean, it feels like old home week, right, where a lot of us are colleagues. you were our boss. i mean, there's a lot in the stew here this morning, so we're happy to have you with us. noah,

i want to start with you. just about the concept. yeah. you dream this up, what, 3 or 4 years ago? and what did you want to say? not just about, obviously, cyber security, but about the state of our culture and the media and everything else. >> yeah. so it. >> all started. yeah. like you said about four years ago with a. >> conversation between mike and eric and myself. >> and we were talking. about the, the, the. >> forces in the world that scare us most. >> which is always. >> a. >> good starting point if you're trying to. >> build a thriller. >> and we all agreed that. >> the. >> most frightening. you know. >> thing that was going. >> on in. >> the world was this fractured. >> relationship with the. >> truth that. america has. >> that the world has this, this, you know, this. >> media landscape. >> that's so polarized where people can kind of retreat into their own reality bubbles. and so we thought to ourselves, how can we build a really entertaining, compelling thriller around that? >> and then we. >> went to, you. >> know, one of the. >> the great. >> directors of, of the genre. >> lesli linka. >> glatter. >> who made homeland, among many other. >> great shows. and here we are now, four. >> years later. lesli, when you

heard the idea, any hesitation from you? it seems like it's right in your wheelhouse. >> not a second. >> i read the first. >> script and i was like, oh my god, i had no idea where it was going to go. >> count me in. >> from day one. >> eric, this concept to it kind of asks the question, which we've talked about on the air and off of if nine over 11 happened today, how different would things be because of the way we are so divided up? >> i mean, it's almost a guarantee. it would it would have gone very differently. i don't think we you know, there was some. >> version of. >> consensus in those in the aftermath of. >> nine over 11. now, i think we would disagree. >> on who did. >> it and. >> why they did it, what to do about it. and so much of the disaster. >> in this show. >> is not so much the cyberattack, but it's how we react to it, and. >> particularly when. >> we can't agree. on on the truth. >> which is, you know, very much, i think, at the. >> heart of what. >> immediately spoke to all of us and to bob that this is, you know. >> as a as a nation and i think

bigger as a civilization, we're we're sort of retreated. >> into separate. >> realities and. >> and, you know. >> subjective truth. >> so, michael. >> how did it go for you. >> jumping from. >> the. world of. >> fact into this world. where it's a scary world? >> i mean, the story is scary. >> parts of it are scary. how did you handle that? >> it was it was really funny. >> from the beginning. >> bob was a. collaborator with us, and we were on one of our first. calls with. >> him. >> and we had come up with this. idea for this character, and bob's on. >> the. >> call, and bob starts. >> talking about, well, this is he starts building out the character. >> and. >> he says, well, this is what the character thinks. and me being a. >> reporter. >> i'm like. >> hold on. >> a second. he's like. >> this is something that we that we created. but then i had to stop myself and say. >> no. >> no. >> no, this is the process. >> this is the creative process. you're on a. call with robert. >> de niro. >> you had helped create a kernel of an idea. >> for a character. >> and he's helping build. >> it out. >> and it was sort of learning

to. embrace that and learning to embrace a different type of storytelling. and the. >> newspaper. >> you know, the text. >> can be limiting, but. >> here we're. >> able to tell stories about what a catastrophic cyber attack. >> would look. >> like. >> what would. >> the. >> response be in. >> ways that i could. never reach the. >> reader in. >> the paper. >> how interesting was it for you. >> watching bob de. >> niro becoming the character minute by minute as you went through the. for me. >> as a director and. >> storyteller, that is. >> what i love. i love complicated. >> layered, complex characters in very intense situations to observe how they're going to behave. and this is, of course. about what is truth in a post-truth world with, in many ways, de niro being the truth seeker, the truth. >> teller. >> and an unreliable narrator. so these are all complexities that i'm. >> like. >> oh, yes, you know, i always want to be in the back rooms of power. i want to know how decisions. >> are made. so i feel like we

got to do that with this team o. >> writers, creators and our amazing technical advisors. >> let's take a look at another clip of robert de niro's character, the former president, in a tense conversation with his daughter, played by lizzy caplan, who was a member of congress. >> i'm concerned. >> you're putting. >> all your eggs in this reapers basket, then. >> you're breaking. >> a lot. >> of them. >> your concern. >> or we would like you to explain in closed session. >> just how. >> all of these arrests are getting us closer to preventing another attack. can you can you do that? can you justify all of this? >> it's only been. >> a few days. we're just starting to question people. >> and the kid who got swept up. >> that's unverified. >> a few days ago, everybody was so sure this was russia. so maybe you're right. but unless all of these arrests are revealing, more proof that you're just not showing us, the committee does need to know that you're open minded. you know, that you're you're willing to

pivot if you make a mistake. >> you can tell your. >> colleagues, i. >> remain nimble. >> as ever, but i will not be testifying. >> so now what we see de niro and lizzy caplan, their angela bassett is in this show. connie britton, jesse plemons. when you dream up a show, you probably don't dream as big as seeing a cast like this. act your words. it's got to be a thrill to watch that. it's unbelievable. i mean, you know, first of all, it turns out that when robert de niro is going to star in a show, other actors want to show up. it helps. >> that helps. >> and it was remarkable. i mean, you know, the whole process. >> of making. >> a tv. >> series is so collaborative and involves so many. >> people. >> bringing their talents to the table. in order to bring the whole thing to life. and it's, you know, to be blessed with a cast like this is really extraordinary. and it's de niro's first series. and he described it as swimming the english channel, which i think was a compliment. i'm not sure it might have been a complaint. yes. >> i realized how how long the

schedule was and how he's in pretty much every scene. yeah. so he would say like, wow, this. is a long. yeah, it is, you know, and he made that analogy of. >> like, you. >> know. >> you're swimming. >> in the middle of the english channel. you can't. >> see england. >> you look back, you can't see france. and you just kind of keep going. and he did he used his, his. stamina was, was, you know, at 80. >> years old. >> and shocking. >> yeah. he could. >> do incredible. yeah. >> he said it was like three movies right. yeah. right. >> well we shot. >> for 103 days. without stopping. that's a long time. but also we were shooting multiple episodes within a single day. >> so. >> we'd go from the first hour to the third hour, maybe to. >> the fourth hour. >> and keeping the character beats. >> you know, all straight. >> and the story straight in a political thriller. that was. really a challenge. >> and but he's a. >> great de niro is an amazing collaborator. >> he is. he is. >> an amazing human being. >> yeah. >> how great. >> was jesse plemons, though? great. always great. yeah. >> the entire. >> cast. >> you know, dan.

>> stevens. >> gaby hoffmann, you know, connie britton. >> i mean, it's, you. >> know, and we got our first choice. in every part, which doesn't. >> happen, including. our director. >> everyone we wanted, we got. and that. >> doesn't happen. >> very often. >> so, mike, what do you think people are going to take away from this after they watch these six? i've watched the whole series and as i said, you know, it's one of those where you can't hit the next episode button quick enough. it's so good. what do you think people are going to take away from this six episode series? >> i think that. >> to the point. >> we. >> were making before. as a. >> country. >> if we were to suffer something catastrophic. >> what would that fall out look like? >> and what does it mean for the country. >> to be in a vulnerable position like that? and i. >> just that is something. >> that is a. >> really hard story. >> to tell. >> we can talk about it. >> people can write about divisiveness in the newspaper, but to show it in the way that we did. hopefully connects. >> the people to make them think, oh man, this country really is divided. >> in a way.

>> that that. >> maybe it is not unsure footing if it had to deal with something catastrophic. the other. >> hope that. >> i. >> have. >> and which is a larger hope. >> is that. >> is that. people will try to embrace the idea of looking at the world. >> for what it is. >> and for. >> the fact of what it is, and not for. >> trying to. >> take it. >> and harness. >> it towards. however their preconceived beliefs are. >> and that's how i approach the. >> world. >> as a journalist. it's not really a. very in view. >> of the world. >> these days. >> but i. >> don't think that there is anything. >> more important. >> than to try and focus. >> the country. >> on the idea that a fact based view of things. is the best. >> path to. >> to a healthy society. >> you got to get back to that somehow. there's a reason the series is number one around the world. all six episodes of zero day, streaming now on netflix. eric newman, noah oppenheim, michael schmidt, lesli linka glatter congratulations and thank you all for being here. good to see you. >> thanks so much. >> still ahead, the hit show suits is headed out west. we'll

get a preview of the new l.a. spin off of the legal drama. that's coming up in our third hour. we're back in two minutes. >> in. >> there's a. >> free way running through the yard. i'm a bear. >> hey. >> hey. >> thanks so much. >> for hosting, sweetie. i hear you found someone special. yeah. >> he's a keeper. >> is that dog. >> food in the fridge? >> it's not dog food. >> it's fresh meat. real veggies for peter. >> that's peter. should have >> that's peter. should have known. oh. with hotels and vacation rentals, booking.com has something for everyone. seashells! you got anything more boutique? oui, oui, oui. right this way... now we're talking. what about something more family friendly? oooh! maybe a resort with a waterpark... [water splash]

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real value from your life insurance when you need it with abacus. >> still ahead, we'll have much more from president trump's meeting with french president emmanuel macron in the oval office, where the two leaders discussed a possible path to peace in ukraine and how to achieve it. and had a little disagreement and some awkward handshakes. plus, we'll get the latest from israel as the ceasefire deal with hamas is in jeopardy this morning. it's all straight ahead on morning joe. we're back in two minutes with a packed 8 a.m. hour. >> my friends call me sam. i naturally hold a. >> lot of stress in my. digestive system, as a lot of women do. >> when i started taking. >> dscr1, i immediately. >> noticed how much lighter i felt. >> vibrant. >> alive.

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powering five years of savings. powering possibilities. comcast business. healthiness again. >> get 50%. >> off your first box. >> at philly.com. >> we want peace, and i think the initiative of president trump is a very positive one. but my message was to say be careful because we need something substantial for ukraine, but for the security of europe and france. and second, let's work together on the

future to preserve security guarantees. meaning to be sure that this peace will be respected by russia. >> numerous times today, president trump expressed confidence that this war. could really, in. >> reality. end in a few weeks. >> do you share. >> that confidence? >> i hope so. >> that is french president emmanuel macron appearing on fox news yesterday after his meeting with president trump at the white house. we'll have much more from their fascinating talk and the distinctly different messages from the leaders on the war in ukraine as they sat side by side. some really interesting dynamics there. also ahead, we'll have the latest on elon musk's ultimatum email to federal employees, which continues to cause major confusion across several agencies, with some of them telling their employees to ignore it. plus, we will bring you an update on the legal fight over the trump administration's ban of the associated press, as well as the concerning comment about the judge's ruling from the u.s. attorney for the district of columbia. good morning. welcome to morning joe.

it is tuesday, february 25th with joe and me today, the co-host, of course, of our fourth hour and contributing writer at the atlantic, jonathan lemire, the host of way too early, ali vitali and staff writer at the atlantic, frank ford. so, joe, that side by side meeting between macron and president trump in the oval office yesterday, just fascinating to watch their body language and then, of course, to listen to the substance of what they were saying. >> the body language, the substance of what they're saying, the annual handshaking contest. it's always fascinating when these two get together. you know, you never know exactly what is going to happen, of course. talking about ukraine, that was that was the context of the meeting. and of course, for much of what went on yesterday, willie. and we're going to start talking about that meeting and ukraine. but first i want to

just briefly read from the wall street journal editorial page today, who aptly calls yesterday what it was a sad day for the united states at the un. and in one part of it, the wall street journal editorial page writes this. perhaps donald trump thinks that telling the truth about russia will cause mr. putin to walk away from ukraine negotiations. ronald reagan, who also sought peace and achieved it, never shrank from telling the truth about the soviet union. the truth was an essential weapon in defeating what reagan called an evil empire. and they end by saying, it's hard to be optimistic if he won't tell the truth about which country started the war. so, willie, really just a stunning moment yesterday where the united states of america sided with an invader in blocking a un resolution on the third

anniversary of an invasion that the entire world saw. they know who the dictator is, just like the new york post said to donald trump last week. the world knows who the dictator is. the world knows who invaded whom. and the world knows who is on the side of freedom and who is on the side of tyranny. and right now, the united states, officially at the united nations does not. >> yeah. and a stark contrast yesterday, as there were remembrances around the world from western democratic nations, free nations siding, of course, with ukraine, victims of the invasion three years ago. but the united states at the un, as you point out, breaking ranks with those european allies joining russia and north korea, among others, in opposing a resolution that calls for russia to withdraw from all occupied territory in ukraine, the u.s. instead proposed a separate resolution avoiding territorial language, mirroring recent trump

administration's suggestions that ukraine may have to cede land to get peace. ultimately, the united states abstained on its own measure after european amendments strengthened its wording. despite u.s. opposition. ukraine's resolution did pass with 93 votes. president trump was asked yesterday about american opposition to that u.n. resolution. >> can you explain. >> to us. >> now and have. >> a u.s. >> vote against. the un. resolutions that ukraine proposed, and. also the u.s. proposed? >> i would rather not explain it now, but it's sort of self-evident, i think. >> so, john, if you look at the front page of the journal, joe was reading from the op ed pages on the news side, u.s. sides with russia, china against ukraine and u.n. vote, we could add belarus and north korea to the company. the u.s. is keeping at the u.n. yesterday. >> yeah. international pariahs, for the most part. you know. >> again. >> it's worth. >> taking a moment reflecting on how things. >> have changed over three years. >> when this. >> war began. >> we heard from president biden. locking arms with ukraine. and our european allies

to say they will support kyiv till the very end. president biden said that the u.s. backing of ukraine's efforts to repel russia would be unwavering and, of. >> course. >> sent billions of dollars over time. for weapons and munitions. >> and now. >> over the last few days, we have president trump prioritizing his phone call in relationship with president putin. we have a we have a meeting, a first talks between u.s. and russian officials in saudi arabia. ukraine not invited. we have trump calling zelensky a dictator and being pressed as to whether putin is the same will not. answer and doing so repeatedly. and now. >> we have here at. >> the un, the united. >> states. >> refusing to acknowledge in plain language what happened, which was this is a war of russian aggression, that russia is the one who invaded. and of course, subtext here. this war could end at any time if vladimir putin would simply call off his troops. and we should note, even as there are now talks, you know, the peace process may be on its way to beginning. you know, russia is

not only continuing, but escalating their bombardment of ukrainian cities with drone strikes and the like. so, you know, we saw french president macron there yesterday flat out contradict trump. but a couple of moments saying that no. >> no. >> europe gave this money to ukraine. we're not expecting it to be paid back. you know, suggesting this was a cause that europe would still continue to support as much as there is acknowledgment, willie, that, yes, that this we are nearing likely the end stages, there will be some sort of negotiations. trump suggesting that a deal may still be part of this, and that zelensky may be coming to the white house in the next week or so. >> that was a telling moment in the oval office when a reporter said, you have called zelensky a dictator. is putin a dictator? donald trump would not answer and change the subject. meanwhile, president trump's white house meeting yesterday with president macron came on the third anniversary of russia's invasion of ukraine. and while the two leaders were friendly, their views about the war and each other's support for ukraine were vastly different. the french president said a peace deal must not mean a

surrender for ukraine. it must not mean a ceasefire without guarantees, and it must allow for ukrainian sovereignty. meanwhile, president trump refused to call russian president vladimir putin a dictator and was focused mainly on recouping billions of dollars in u.s. aid to ukraine. macron briefly corrected trump when the president said europe was already getting repaid. >> zelensky a dictator? would you use. >> the same words with putin? >> i don't use those words lightly. i think that we're going to see how it all works out. let's see what happens. i think we have a chance of a really good settlement between various countries. and, you know, you're talking about europe and you're talking about ukraine as part of that whole situation. the other side has a lot of a lot of support also. so let's see how it all works out. it might work out. look, you can never make up lies. the one thing you can't you can make up the money, but you can't make up the lives. a lot of lives lost,

i think probably a lot more lives than people are talking about. it's been a it's been a rough war, but i think we're close to getting it solved. europe is loaning the money to ukraine. they get their money back? >> no, in fact, to be to be frank, we paid we paid 60% of the total effort. and it was through, like the us loans guaranteed grants. and we provided real money. to be clear, we have 230 billion frozen assets in europe, russian assets. but this is not as a collateral of a loan because this is not our belonging. so they are frozen. if at the end of the day, in the negotiation we will have with russia, they're ready to give to give it to us super. it will be loan at the end of the day and russia will have paid for that. >> if you. believe that, it's okay with me, but they get their money back and we don't, and now we do. but you know, that's only fair. >> that's just not true. it's really not. i mean, what what

what macron said was true, frank, for so, so much about this is just double speak. we live in really an upside down world right now, especially well domestically. and when it comes to foreign policy. but you actually have a piece in the atlantic and it's a man who actually stands up to trump. and you say zelensky's willingness to stand up to president donald trump holding true to american values in the face of american intimidation, was a perverse trading of places. and i think back all the way back to harry truman in 1947, the truman doctrine, the creation of nato, the berlin airlift, the united states standing up time and time again to those that the soviet union that the russians would want to oppress. what happened

in 1980 when the soviets were about to go into poland and the so-called porcupine doctrine, that the carter administration and doctor brzezinski put together, saying, sure, go into poland if you want. we'll make sure it's like swallowing a porcupine. you don't want to do it. what we did throughout the 1980s, our support for solidarity all the way up to the berlin wall, going down the united states, first in defeating naziism and then defeating soviet tyranny. we've always known what side we were on when it came to fighting against soviet and russian aggression. yesterday. just absolutely stunning and a stinging rebuke to most everything american foreign policy has stood for, for the better for 80 years. >> right. >> it's. >> an upside. >> down world. >> and part. >> of. >> the reason it's.

>> upside down are the values that are infusing trump's foreign policy. >> here, that. >> ukraine, which was the victim of russian aggression, is not we're not even able to acknowledge that fact. and here the president is trying to basically extort ukraine. and it's incredibly vulnerable state. zelenskyy initially. proposed this idea that there could be some sharing of his nation's resources as. >> a gesture. of gratitude. >> it was his form of trying to suck up to trump initially. but then when trump arrived, when scott arrived. >> in kyiv. >> to. negotiate the terms of this, it wasn't a negotiation. he pushed. and mob like fashion. he pushed a piece of paper across the desk to zelensky and said, these are the terms, and these were terms that were just. punitive that they were trying to zelensky, who's been a kind of perpetual. >> thorn in, in, in trump's side, going back to that very beautiful. >> phone call that they had that was provoked, the first impeachment. he's always had

this this animus towards zelensky. and here. >> that animus. >> was was being. imposed on the entirety of ukraine. >> yeah. but frank, the thing about that deal is it would be one thing if you pushed these outrageous demands across the table at zelensky, who siding with the country that's repelling russian aggression. but there was no security guarantee even attached to that. it was give us all of your your money and we will give you nothing in return. it wasn't even like, you know, you said like you compared to them. wasn't even that because there was no no protection afforded. it was give us all your money and we give you nothing in return. right? he was he exactly. >> there was. it was extortion. there was nothing on the other side for ukraine. when zelensky first proposed that deal, he was saying. >> look, you know.

>> we know. >> that you're going. >> to take risk in protecting us and guaranteeing our security. >> so here. >> are some access to some of our valuable minerals. and in exchange, instead, trump was. behaving like. >> a russian oligarch. and in the end. >> shouldn't russia be the one that has to pay some sort of price for having. >> invaded ukraine? >> it's perverse. >> to impose. >> those costs. >> on ukraine. >> the victim coming up, the latest on the widespread confusion sparked by elon musk directive that federal workers list their accomplishments or risk losing their jobs. politico's jonathan martin joins the table next on morning joe. >> shining. >> loving, holding sexy dreams. >> here you go. >> is there any way to. >> get a better price on this? >> have you checked single care? whenever my customers ask how to. >> get a better. >> price on their meds, i tell them about single care. it's a free app accepted at pharmacies nationwide. >> before i pick up my prescription, i always check the single care price. >> it's quick, easy, and totally free to use. >> single care can literally. >> beat my insurance copay.

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and water before. >> it hits your floors. >> say goodbye to dirty floors. >> for good. >> get yours at muddy. >> match.com or walmart today. there's growing confusion this morning now that elon musk imposed deadline has passed for federal workers to respond to an email justifying their positions or to resign, the musk directed email was sent by the u.s. office of personnel management to government employees over the weekend. shortly after, musk wrote in a post on x that if they did not respond by 11:59 p.m. last night, it would be, quote, taken as a resignation, nbc news now has learned the department of government efficiency is expected to feed the responses from federal workers. who replied to that musk directed email into an artificial intelligence system to determine whether those jobs are necessary. i will decide

their fate. that's according to three sources with knowledge of the system. but confusion continued yesterday ahead of the deadline. first, individual departments advised their employees not to respond, while others said they must respond. then, the opm said responses were optional. then, musk said responses were required and failure to respond would result in termination. president trump appeared to agree, but added to the confusion by saying those who did not respond would be, quote, sort of semi fired. >> i thought it was great because we have people that don't show up to work, and nobody even knows if they work for the government. so by asking the question, tell us what you did this week. what he's doing is saying, are you actually working? and then if you don't answer like you're sort of semi fired or you're fired because a lot of people are not answering because they don't even exist. >> last night, musk followed the president by posting that

federal workers who did not respond to the initial email would be given another chance, but failure to respond a second time would result in termination. the white house did not immediately respond to an nbc news request for comment on that post. let's bring in senior political columnist for politico, jonathan martin. so, jonathan, we're seeing some of the first, i guess, pushback from these individual departments to elon musk just having free reign with that chainsaw he wielded at cpac, telling people, if you don't respond to this, we'll assume you're resigning and you're gone. and if you do respond, we're going to feed it into ai. and ai will decide whether you keep your job or not. what do you make of what we've seen, just even in the last 24 hours? >> yeah. i'm curious for the ai. >> function on semi fired. >> that's a pretty. >> advanced, pretty advanced ai software these days. apparently they can they can do the semi fired, but they're making it up as they go. >> i mean, it's not more complicated than that. i think. >> trump obviously.

>> wants elon. to bring the efficiencies. of a private company to the federal government. and elon is doing to the federal government are trying. to what he has done in the private sector. it just. doesn't work that way. and the upshot of it. >> tragically, for the federal workforce. >> and for the country. is that you guys know what's going to happen. the people who have the best opportunities. >> and the best. >> options and are the most talented are going to. >> say. >> to borrow from the old. >> country song. >> take this job and. shove it. >> they're going to walk. they're going to go in the private sector, take that. >> pension early. >> move down to. the low country or 30, joe, and. >> enjoy the rest of. >> their life. and they're in their early 60s and. >> you know. >> everybody else is going to try to hang on. it's going to go to court and try to keep their job, but it's just asking for the best people to walk, and it's totally self-defeating. >> that's the concern that we've heard, frankly, on this show, on other shows, people saying you're going to lose really talented minds that want to do their work for america. and on

behalf of the public, i can tell you, i've heard that from the federal workers that i've spoken to, they're in agony not knowing what's coming next, but then also wanting to serve and having no place to put that service because of this. but then musk is also applying this same attitude of flaunting the norms of how these firings would even typically be done by by posing the same question to liberal members of congress, to senators saying, what did you do this week? give me five bullet points. i mean, that's the tone, right? >> yeah. and, you know. >> there's no function on the. >> ai search. i don't. >> think for co-equal branch of government necessarily. >> i'd be interested. >> yeah, exactly. >> semi fired an co-equal branch. it's really high tech stuff. no. >> look, he's trying. >> to do what he did for. >> tesla. >> for spacex. obviously for twitter and trying to apply that to the federal government. it's a very. >> different scenario here. >> and it's. >> not going to go. >> as. >> well here. here's where i think it ends. >> i think. >> trump eventually is going to get tired of elon's a antics. >> but but b his unpopularity.

>> if you look at the polling data so far. >> something that trump cares. >> deeply about. >> trump's numbers are a lot. >> better than elon musk's. trump doesn't like somebody who's. >> that unpopular. >> around him. and i think once trump. >> realizes that the depth of. elon's unpopularity, whether. >> it's, you know, this. >> summer or this. >> fall, i think his days are going to be numbered. well, you know, frank, for the whole idea that this is we need a ceo to run our government the way we, you know, they they run their own businesses, the best ceos. first of all, there's a long and sorry history of ceos performing horribly in government because they can't just sit there side office and do this, do that, do this, do that. and it usually doesn't end well. also, if you look at the best ceos. certainly over the last ten, 15, 20 years, they don't they don't do this. i mean, you look what elon has done with twitter. ask anybody

if twitter is better today than it was when he walked in there. and the overwhelming majority of people will say no, but you take steve jobs. steve jobs later in life was asked what something that he learned. he said, you know, i learned you have to be a lot more patient with people. there were people that i got rid of too early. there were people i didn't stick with. there were people i didn't, you know, i they grew on the job and they ended up being my most valuable employee. so you don't just go around and just fire somebody because that's the same thing. you look at the video and the video is culture. their entire culture is you're on board. we don't fire you. if you make $1 billion mistake, then we get the benefit of that billion dollar mistake because you won't make it a second or a third or a fourth time. and that is a culture of so many highly successful companies. i mean, if

you are the world's richest man and you've made a lot of your money because of government contracts, again, the great irony of all of this, then perhaps you can afford to go in and blow up twitter and, and, and start firing people and gutting operations. it doesn't work that way when you're dealing with the national institutes of health, and there are young americans who are depending on the nih and the research that nih provides to stay alive, or alzheimer's patients, cancer patients. i mean, you just go down the list, if you look cuts to the faa, cuts to, you know, nuclear security and safety cuts, cuts to health organizations that are trying to stop the bird flu from being an epidemic, let alone a pandemic. we go down the list. this, i mean, for, for forget government. this is not how top

ceos would work at their own companies. well. >> and the consequences of breaking. >> twitter, i mean. >> we're bad. >> they turned. >> public square into. a toxic, racist. neo-nazi playground. but, you know. >> the consequences of breaking. >> the breaking the federal. >> government are much worse. i mean. >> as you're. >> describing and. >> we saw this. this last weekend with. >> this. >> email, you know, when you ask fbi agents to list the five things that they're. >> working on. >> in a highly. insecure sort of setting? well. >> i mean. >> that's not showing tremendous sensitivity to their investigations. and when. >> you have. >> kash patel telling. >> you, whoa, wait a minute, guy, you might be moving too far. >> too fast. you know. >> there are certain. >> things that we don't want to move fast and break. you know that you've gone too far and you're dealing. with extremely dangerous territory. >> yeah. it's possible we'll look back upon this as an inflection point. in the early days of trump's second term. let's remember i wrote on this

today for the atlantic. you know, this began with a trump post over the weekend encouraging elon, saying he's doing good work. actually telling him to be more aggressive. musk and his aides at doj then put together this email plan that was so haphazard and hastily written, we're told so many federal employees thought it was spam. they didn't think it was real. they thought it was a phishing attempt. then musk started driving it on social media and cabinet agencies. we're told, you know, a lot of their leaders grew very unhappy about this, thinking this was musk encroaching on their territory. now, some of that is because they want, you know, the authority to dismiss personnel at their own department if needed. they didn't want to cede any of that power to musk. and we saw a real inflection point yesterday from the white house. i mean, really read through the chronology about the shifting guidance. but i'm told some senior members of the west wing really frustrated with musk here and quietly let agencies know this is optional. you don't have to have your employees respond to this. it's the first time we've really seen some daylight between the west

wing and what musk is trying to do. we talked to some senior federal employees yesterday, one of whom deemed this a train wreck. another said it was a form of harassment that they feel like that they've really soured here. on what musk is trying to do. and really the backdrop we should keep in mind, jay, mark mentioned the polls that suggest that musk's approval rating is dropping, but we've also had these series of town halls in recent days. some of us in republican districts where voters, republican voters express a lot of anger as to these indiscriminate, sloppy cuts. and at a certain point, the people in trump's orbit tell me, the president who still likes musk for now, they could reach a breaking point. >> yeah, these jobs that are being hacked away with a chainsaw belong to republicans and democrats. and that's why you're hearing a lot of that at those town halls. we'll see as these members come back to washington, if they actually say something about this to donald trump and pass on what they're hearing from their constituents. still ahead this morning on morning joe, the latest on the cease fire deal between israel and hamas, after both sides accuse each other of violating

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>> we're going. >> to start with breaking news on capitol hill. >> mounting questions over the future of tiktok in the us. >> reporting from. >> philadelphia. >> el paso. >> and. >> the palisades, virginia. >> from msnbc world headquarters here. >> in. >> new york. >> the fragile ceasefire between israel and hamas is in jeopardy again this morning, after israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu announced on saturday a scheduled release of more than 600 palestinian prisoners is being delayed. he cited the terrorist group's repeated violations of the ceasefire terms and its cynical exploitation of israeli hostages for propaganda purposes during several handovers to the red cross last week, hamas returned the bodies of four dead captives, saying they were those of two young children, their mother and an elderly man. but forensic testing conducted in israel found the mother's body

was not returned. those remains were of an unknown person from gaza. a day later, hamas handed over the correct body, calling the incident a mistake. meanwhile, israeli defense forces say forensic testing shows the children, a four year old and a ten month old. the youngest hostages, taken on october 7th, were not shot to death, saying the captors killed the babies with their bare hands. the idf says hamas then, quote, committed horrific acts to cover up these atrocities. the terrorist group denies the allegation, claiming the children died in an israeli airstrike. for the latest on all this, let's bring in nbc news international correspondent matt bradley. matt, what's the latest there? >> yeah. >> well, as you. >> mentioned, this. >> tenuous treaty that has been in place for about six weeks is now really. >> really close to collapsing. >> and that's not just because of what you mentioned earlier about the fact that. >> the. >> israelis are now withholding more than 600 palestinian

prisoners, prisoners in israeli prisons because of. >> these. >> what benjamin netanyahu and his. >> allies have called. >> degrading and humiliating. ceremonies during these weekly handovers. what is also a major problem and a ticking time bomb for. this piece, is the fact that we are about to move from phase one, the. >> six weeks. >> of handover, swaps of israeli prisoners and, excuse me, of israeli. >> hostages for. >> palestinian prisoners in israeli jails. that's supposed to end on sunday. there was already supposed to have been weeks of negotiations between hamas and the israelis to move to phase two, as of march 1st. this new. phase would have seen a more permanent peace in the gaza strip, as well as potentially the full withdrawal of the. >> israeli military. >> from the gaza. strip for the. >> first time since. >> those october 7th attacks. so the fact that those negotiations haven't been going on, despite this looming deadline, that is a major, major roadblock in the way of continuing this peace. and already we've heard from israeli military leaders and israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu saying that they are

prepared. they are girding for a renewed fight in the gaza strip. they've even brought reservists. >> to. >> the areas around the gaza strip in order to prepare for targets within gaza, and simply to go about the business of fighting hamas. now, one of the reasons why these negotiations haven't really been started again in earnest is because both sides, once again, are so far apart when it comes to the final terms of this deal. the israelis have said they are not going to leave the gaza strip without seeing hamas completely demilitarized or completely destroyed, whereas hamas. >> have. >> said, of course, they're not going to essentially sign their own demise as part of this peace treaty. so that puts these two sides so far apart and makes these negotiations back to where they were before, almost impossible, with both sides seeing totally different realities on the ground. >> nbc's matt bradley in tel aviv. matt, thanks for your reporting. coming up, the one word that best describes president trump. the atlantic's jonathan rauch joins us with that answer straight ahead on

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two of its closest trading partners, mexico and canada. jonathan martin has a new piece for politico titled how canada hopes to thwart trump. in it, john writes not since tim hortons began opening franchises south of the border has there been such a marketing offensive from up north, and for good reason. canadian leaders are near a state of panic about president trump's threats of tariffs and annexation. the former would upend their economy. the latter would undo their country. one canadian official told me they felt like they were under an artillery barrage. so enter the maple leaf mafia. a john goes on to write.

ontario premier doug ford was joined at the national governors association in washington by the premier of nova scotia, as well as canada's ambassador to the united states, kirsten hillman. other provincial leaders, as well as federal ministers, have regularly been in and out of washington. on air canada since the election, meeting privately with trump aides and lawmakers of both parties. kudos to you for getting in tim hortons. you got to have it in any piece about canada. it's got to include it. so what do they feel like? what is the sincere level of panic inside canada? we've seen all the 51st state stuff from president trump. we've heard canadians booing the national anthem at hockey games. but when you cut through all that, what is the level of concern from people who actually can make a difference here? >> it's significant. i've covered. >> the nba. >> for the last. >> 15 years. i don't think i've missed one in that period of time. i can never. >> remember any canadian. >> presidents at the national

governors meeting, let alone the extent of. >> what i saw. >> over the weekend here. and there's a couple of things going on. >> look, first of all, there is real. concern about trump. >> going through. >> with these blanket tariffs. >> next month. >> and what that would do. >> to the economy. >> of canada. >> but the other thing is. >> there's a fractured. response because there's not a stable federal government. >> right now. >> in ottawa because trudeau is. >> stepping down. >> the liberals are about to. elect a new. >> leader in march. and then obviously there's going to be a general election. >> so a lot of this. >> work is being done by the. >> individual provinces. >> which are kind. >> of like our states on steroids. they have a lot more power. >> than our states do. >> so you've got. >> not just. >> the federal. >> government and. >> obviously the ambassador in. >> washington. but you also have really these individual. >> provinces, some. more conservative, some more liberal, who. are doing. >> their own. >> lobbying, literally have hired separate washington lobby shops. >> to. >> do their work. >> and are just blanketing. >> the governors meeting capitol hill. >> any trump aide. >> who will give them an audience.

>> they'll. >> talk to. and the message. >> is, we're. >> your friend. >> a you. >> know us like. >> we do. >> business together. >> the premier of ontario. >> doug ford. >> who i. >> wrote, could be. >> played by john candy. >> or chris. >> farley in the movie, is a really fascinating guy. he's toting this 25 page document around which talks about how. ontario alone. >> is like the. biggest trading. partner for like. >> a dozen states in the us. >> so they. >> want to know that this. >> is a matter. >> of a friendship, but also be business, willie, that you guys sell us goods. >> we sell. >> you goods. >> why would you want to screw that up? >> why would you want to screw that up? and yet you also hear from that same minister that you're talking about, that he talks to republicans and republicans say, yeah, i'm with you. this isn't a good idea. there's plenty of governors who look at the way that their states do business, who say, i'm with you, too. this doesn't work for my bottom line. >> yeah. >> and in fact. >> it's pretty. >> easy to find senators, governors of both parties. >> who are. >> deeply uneasy about the idea of a trade war with canada, in part because.

>> of the. >> retaliatory tariffs. >> let's take, for. >> example. andy beshear. >> the governor of kentucky. >> mitch mcconnell. >> rand paul. the two. >> senators. they're deeply concerned about the canadians slapping tariffs on bourbon. and that. is already. >> become a. >> sort. >> of subplot in this is. >> the. >> canadian effort. to block us booze and to sort. >> of, you know, tariff it. >> that would be devastating. >> for the economy in. >> parts of kentucky. so we're already. >> hearing about the kind of. >> pushback that the. >> conflict on us. bye bye. tariffs on our goods. coming up, a book club for bewildered liberals. new york times columnist nick kristof joins us with his list of must reads for disillusioned democrats. that's straight ahead on morning joe. >> for plant based, healthy. >> blood pressure support, there's. >> one brand at walmart that stands. >> above the rest.

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small businesses. >> each week, veteran lawyers. >> andrew weissman and mary mccord break. down the latest developments inside the trump administration's. department of justice. >> the administration doesn't necessarily. >> want to be. questioned on. >> any of its policy. >> main justice. >> new episodes. drop every tuesday. >> all of this can be overwhelming, but it is important to remember there are still checks and balances. there's a lot being thrown at the american people right now, and it is really important to pay attention to it, but it is just as important to recognize how many of those things are getting announced. but they're not happening at all, or at least not yet. just try to remember we are not looking at the final score. we are still in the first quarter. keep your pads on. the game has just begun. >> so you're. >> the mighty ted black.

>> we're about to. >> be the largest. >> firm in the city. >> i am the best. attorney in the country, and i can prove it to you. >> right now. >> are we going. >> to fight? >> we're going to dance. what's that? the new deal. >> you don't represent me. i need someone with confidence. >> and you just seem a little sheepish to me. >> it's different. >> out here. >> people lie. they do whatever they can to win. >> i know what you think. >> you're doing. >> once you do it, there's no going back. >> the fast talking and backstabbing legal world of suits. it's back. almost six years after the conclusion of the original series, which was set in new york. the new spin off suits. la is set on the opposite coast, with a new cast of characters and a whole lot of drama. it stars actor stephen amell, who portrays ted black, a former federal prosecutor from new york who has reinvented himself and now represents some of the most powerful clients in los angeles. and stephen joins

us now. thank you so much for being here. congratulations on this. thank you. let's just start with the phenomenon that is suits a hit when it came out became a tidal wave during the pandemic. it became such a comfort food. people rediscovered it for the first time. rediscovered it. a true phenomenon. so talk to us about the sort of pressure, i guess, that comes with that to continue the story. >> oh. >> if i thought about. >> that. i don't. >> think. >> that i would get. >> much sleep. >> i focus on. >> making sure that my cast is happy, the directors are happy, the creator of the show is happy, and i let. >> all. >> of the other stuff take. >> care of itself. >> because, i mean. >> you can't really. i mean, how would you deal with this too much? >> yeah. talk to us about what drew you, though, to the project? >> well, i mean, i'm an actor, right? so i wasn't working on anything at the time, and it was early 2024. so just about. >> a year ago now, and. >> this. >> audition came up. >> i think i was mostly. >> excited just. >> to have an audition in person between. >> just being. busy and then

with everything that happened with the pandemic. >> i don't think. >> i'd been. in a. >> room to audition in quite some time. so tell. >> us about. >> ted black. no spoilers, of course, but talk to us about your character. and as you alluded to, the remarkable cast you get to play with. >> so he's. >> a. >> former federal prosecutor from new york that. >> leaves new. >> york under. some not so great circumstances and. >> then. >> finds himself in los angeles working. entertainment law. and then he's surrounded. >> by. >> you know, a whole group of great lawyers. there's erica, played by lex scott. james stuart, played by josh mcdermott, amanda, played. >> by maggie. >> grace, rick, played. >> by bryan greenberg. >> the list is long. >> all right, well, here's a clip where. >> your. >> character finds himself in a pretty difficult situation with the future of the firm at risk. let's take a look. >> it was stuart. >> wasn't it? >> he couldn't. >> have seen. >> it coming. >> who did we lose? >> every senior member. >> of every. department except. >> sports and entertainment. >> look, ted. >> give me a minute to think. >> what is there to think about? >> we need to file an

injunction. >> if we do that, the entire town will. >> know we're weak. >> we will be. dead in a year. >> and if we. >> can't. >> stop the bleeding. >> we'll be dead in. >> a month. i'm not losing my firm. >> okay. >> who left? whose clients. >> we absolutely. >> cannot afford to lose. >> litvack. >> johnson and riley. >> okay. >> i want signed contracts from every client by the end of. >> the day. call erica. >> tell her to get in here and start. >> helping now. >> for fans of the original, some of this is going to sound familiar. the pacing, the smart, snappy dialog. but talk to us about the difference. how is it going to be different from what came before? >> well, how different. >> is los angeles from new york? >> very, very. >> i don't think that ted. >> and his coworkers are going to be going out to get hot dog stands. i don't know if there are hot dog stands. >> where are. >> drive thrus? >> maybe drive thrus, maybe like green smoothies, i don't know, just very different. i think entertainment law is something that hasn't really been explored. >> i think. >> people have an idea of what corporate law is like, but entertainment law, you know, people think that managers and

agents and to some extent actors are the ones that have the power and the entertainment business. it's not them. it's the it's the lawyers. >> it's the lawyers. yeah. no, we learned that the hard way at times. all right. well, the new series suits la airs sundays at 9:00 eastern on nbc and then streams the very next day on peacock. it is already a hit. actor stephen amell, thank you so much. congratulations. thank you. all right. up next here on morning joe, we'll bring you the latest on the decidedly mixed messages to government workers following elon musk's emails to justify their very employment. >> plus. >> we'll show you the concerning response from the us attorney for washington, dc to a judge's ruling against the associated press. keep it right here on morning joe. >> pressing down on you? >> no man asked for. i'm the writer. >> my eyes, they're. >> dry. >> uncomfortable looking. >> for extra hydration. now

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>> we are authenticated. >> luxury resale shop now with code tr20 for 20% off. >> terms apply. >> welcome back. time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning, beginning with new york

city, which is set to close down a migrant shelter in midtown manhattan. the roosevelt hotel served as an arrival center for asylum seekers for nearly two years. in announcing the closure, mayor eric adams signaled the migrant crisis is easing. as the new york times points out, the roosevelt turned into a lightning rod in the country's immigration debate, both as a reminder of the depth of the crisis and as shorthand for critics opposed to the expenditure of taxpayer money on migrants. to ohio, now former republican presidential candidate vivek ramaswamy has announced plans to run for governor of his home state. according to the cleveland plain dealer, during campaign events yesterday, ramaswamy portrayed himself as an outsider who, as governor, would shake up ohio's state government the same way that president trump has challenged long established institutions and norms at the federal level. trump wasted no

time endorsing ramaswamy, doing so on social media late last night, calling him, quote, something special. we should note ramaswamy made no mention of doge in that event. he and musk were supposed to do it together, and starbucks is set to eliminate more than 1000 corporate jobs. that's according to the company's ceo, and it says the move is aimed at creating smaller, more nimble teams. coffee giant has been facing sluggish sales amid a rise in new competitors. and also this morning, we are remembering one of the most famous secret service agents in history, clint hill. nbc news correspondent kate snow explains. >> november 22nd, 1963 a day forever etched in our collective memories, but especially. >> for secret. >> service agent clint hill. >> hill was trailing the limousine in the presidential motorcade on that november day in dallas, texas. >> as the. >> agent assigned to first lady

jacqueline kennedy when shots were fired. hill famously jumped onto the back of the limo in a desperate attempt to protect president and mrs. kennedy. >> it must. >> have been. >> a shocking. >> scene to behold. >> it was horrible. >> one of. >> the last living witnesses, even decades later, he could recount every detail of that fateful day. revisiting the motorcade route with savannah on the 50th anniversary of the assassination. >> as we got down here a little bit farther. >> there was. >> a loud explosive noise that came over my right shoulder. >> and i. >> knew. >> something was wrong. so i. >> jumped off my position on the car and ran toward the presidential vehicle. >> there was a. >> third shot and it hit the president in the head. >> you knew in that. >> moment this is a fatal. >> that was my assumption that it was a fatal shot. >> that moment would haunt him for the rest of his life. >> 50 years. and i still. have that image in. >> my mind. >> and you carry this place with you? >> i guess. >> the rest of.

>> your life. >> yes, i do. it's one thing. >> that i'll never. >> rid myself of. >> but i. >> have come to terms. >> with it. >> and that's the best. >> i can do. >> in his. >> later years. >> hill wrote about his incredible life, looking back at his past and reflecting on how he would be remembered. speaking with jacob soboroff in 2023. >> well, people. >> keep thanking me. >> for. >> what i did, but. >> i appreciate that. very much. >> but i didn't complete. >> my task. >> which was. >> to save the. >> president's life. and that's. >> what's bothered me all these years. >> my job was. >> to keep the. >> president alive. >> and. >> safe, and i was not able to do that. >> your legacy. >> what do you want it to be? >> well. >> i just, you know, i tried. >> i tried to. >> do the best job i could. >> unfortunately. >> it wasn't enough. >> do you ever. >> think about how. >> had this. >> not happened, what your life might be like? >> oh, yeah. a much calmer, much simpler. i wouldn't have. >> had the. >> experiences i've had. though

i was a lucky man to be given the responsibilities i was given, i'm very grateful. >> hill died on. >> friday at his home in belvedere, california, at the age of 93. it's now just past the top of the hour here, the fourth hour of morning joe, 6 a.m. out on the west coast, 9 a.m. here on the east coast. and president trump says a deal to end the war in ukraine could soon be reached, despite a split between the u.s. and its key european allies. this as there is growing confusion this morning after elon musk extended the deadline for federal workers to respond to an email justifying their positions or resign. we've got two reports for you right now, beginning with nbc news chief white house correspondent peter alexander. >> russia's invasion. >> of ukraine, now beginning its. >> fourth year as president trump pushes. >> for an agreement. >> between the two sides. >> a lot of good things toward peace are happening. moving it, i think, pretty quickly. >> but even as the president.

>> shared hugs and handshakes with french president emmanuel macron. >> monday. >> the divide is growing between the u.s. >> and. >> its key allies over support for. >> ukraine. >> as the president appears focused. >> on terms. >> favorable to russia. >> one of the first calls i made was to president putin, and we were treated with great respect. and they want to they want to end this war. >> in just the last week. >> president trump has made a. >> series of false assertions. >> blaming ukraine for starting. >> the war. >> and criticizing ukraine's president, volodymyr zelensky as a dictator. yesterday, declining to. >> say the same. >> about vladimir putin. >> i don't use those words lightly. i think that we're going to see how it all works out. >> macron's visit comes as the u.s. voted against a united nations resolution condemning. >> russia's aggression. >> the u.s. siding not. >> with europe or. >> most of its. >> allies. >> but with russia. north korea and. >> iran, among others. none the less. >> the resolution. >> passed. >> as amended, is adopted. >> meanwhile, president.

>> trump says the u.s. and ukraine are closing in on a deal that would give washington a share of ukraine's natural mineral. resources to pay back the u.s. for military aid, even saying zelenskyy. >> who so. >> far rejected. >> any deal, may. >> come to the u.s. in the next couple of weeks to sign. >> it in the. >> oval office. macron corrected president. >> trump after. >> he wrongly said. europe's support to ukraine was a loan. >> europe is loaning the money to ukraine. they get their money back. >> no, in fact, to be to be frank, we paid. >> macron later telling fox news regarding negotiations with russia. his message to president trump was simple. >> my message was to say, be careful because we need something substantial for ukraine. >> this morning. federal government employees are waking up to yet. another new. >> directive from donald trump and elon musk. after a day of mass government confusion. >> overnight. >> the deadline passing from that. >> weekend. >> email sent by the office of personnel management at musk's

instruction, asking for them to list five things they've. accomplished or face termination. some government agency leaders, including trump's allies, telling their staff they shouldn't answer, other departments telling employees to respond but not to reveal classified information. while trump praised musk's actions. >> there was a lot of genius in sending it. >> the office. >> that. >> sent that. >> email following up. monday to say it's voluntary. but then. >> a new. >> order from musk. monday night giving employees more time, but making it clear they better comply. failure to respond a second time will result in termination. musk posted on his platform x senator lisa murkowski, a republican from alaska, a state with a significant number of federal workers, said the email was intimidating employees. >> there is. >> a. >> way to do this that is proper, that is lawful and also treats our federal employees with a little bit of dignity.

>> it comes. >> as some republicans are facing backlash at town halls over musk and his department's cuts. a congressman. in missouri defending musk yesterday. >> whether you. >> like. >> it or. >> not. >> elon musk. >> does have a security clearance. >> he later. >> said the. >> overflow crowd included organized protesters. >> the cuts coming. >> as. >> trump is making. >> a. >> controversial move at. >> the fbi, appointing dan bongino, a former police officer. >> and secret. >> service officer with no experience at the fbi, as the deputy director of. >> the agency. >> a position normally. >> reserved for a career agent. >> bongino has used his conservative media platform to peddle conspiracy. >> theories. >> falsely cast doubt on the 2020 election results, and attacked the fbi, saying it. >> needs to be disbanded. >> that's nbc's ryan nobles with that report. let's bring in right now member of the new york times editorial board. mara gay, msnbc political analyst. and dardis, he's publisher of the newsletter the ink, available on

substack. a contributing writer at the atlantic and a senior fellow at the brookings institute. jonathan rauch and also the author of the sanity clause newsletter on substack. joe klein, thank you all so much for being with us. i want to start with you, mara, and just talk about the last few days and the confusion, actually, not just among federal employees, but among members of donald trump's own administration about exactly what elon musk's directives mean and whether they need to obey them or not. >> you know, without. >> getting into. >> their mindset. >> which i think in some ways. is just a rabbit hole. >> we don't. >> need to go down. >> the impact of these. emails and. >> of. >> doj's kind of. >> chaos is that essentially. >> this is destruction. >> by chaos. >> there are. >> government workers who i've spoken. >> to throughout. >> the federal. workforce who

are. >> deeply demoralized. >> they are fearing for their jobs. these are just ordinary. americans like anybody else. >> they have mortgages. they have children. >> bills to pay. >> and they. >> deeply care. >> about their work. >> and a lot of that work. >> is extremely. essential to the american public. >> and i think. >> that that message. >> is getting. >> lost. >> because what's happening is. >> every single. worker is being told. >> that what they do on behalf of the american people is not important. so people are looking for. >> new jobs. even as. >> they are engaged. >> in essential. >> functions of the government, from. health care to defense. and, you know, that's why we're seeing this anger at town halls. but i don't believe that the true impact. >> of these. >> cuts will. >> become clear to the. >> american people. >> until the federal budget. is negotiated. >> and ultimately, this is just, you know. >> saber rattling.

>> yeah. and, you know, it is so fascinating. and in what you write about that it's about psychology as much as it is about spending cuts and no greater evidence of that than the words of donald trump's new omb director, a man who helped put project 2025 together. propublica uncovered this quote. i believe it's from october, and this is a quote that russell vought said, quote, we want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected when they wake up in the morning. we want them to not want to go to work because they are increasingly viewed as the villains. we want their funding to be shut down. we want to put them in trauma. and you take what mara just said with what

you wrote about this being about psychology as much as anything. trauma overwhelming everybody, not just federal employees, but overwhelming democrats, independents, the media, you name it. and then you go back and look at these words. this is if you take russell at his own words. this is part of the plan. >> it is. you know. america right now is living. through a. >> hostile takeover. >> by billionaires. >> and bullies. >> and we don't have an. >> opposition that is able to say that. >> simply, clearly. >> and starkly. >> and you're exactly right. people like russell vought and. >> certainly donald trump and elon. >> musk understand that they are playing. >> on a level of human. >> psychology, right? >> they're doing politics. but the primary. >> level, i would argue, on which they are operating. >> is a level of psychology, mental health, traumatizing. >> people. >> gaslighting people, being.

>> kind of psychologically abusive. >> to the. >> nation, striking fear. >> as mara was saying, into. every employee who doesn't know if they're next, doesn't know what to do. >> can't focus on. >> their kids when they're sitting with them at night trying to read a book to them. because in the. >> back of their mind. >> is this email that they're maybe. >> supposed to respond. >> to justify their existence. >> to someone who. >> is not. >> even technically. >> a federal employee. >> and this hostile. >> takeover on this level of psychology, playing. >> with people's nerves is still not. >> being opposed. by democrats. >> who understand. >> to play on the. same turf of. psychology and. >> who understand. >> what do you think they need to do? an and what i know that you're talking about, people need to get involved. they need to run for office. they need need. so what's the answer? what do democrats need to be doing in your in your opinion that they're not doing right now? >> we need a. >> strategy up.

>> and down. right. so running for. >> office is a longer term thing. >> we need. we got thousands. >> of. >> people looking into that. >> but but. >> right now. >> the top leaders of the. >> democratic party i don't expect. >> the revolution. >> to come from them. but the top leaders of the democratic party need to stop being milquetoast. >> i'll be. very specific. last night. >> rachel maddow. >> show leader jeffries is on the show. >> tell me if i'm wrong. >> you can. >> add me on. >> any social media platform if i'm wrong. i don't. >> think any american watching. >> that interview with leader jeffries would. >> have come. >> away feeling. defended deep in their heart, in the middle of. >> an autocratic. >> takeover by that high ranking democrat. it was full of legal terms as it relates. >> to in terms. >> of well, and. >> it was full of every time she gave. >> him a chance to. empathize with people who. >> say he's not doing. >> enough, they're not doing enough. every time. she gave him. >> that. >> opportunity as a gifted interviewer, that she is. >> instead of saying. >> yeah, i can get why people feel that way about what we're

doing. no, we're doing this. nope, nope. >> we don't need. >> any more steel in our spine. >> defensiveness and self-protection don't do not make an opposition. it is going to take a true, fiery opposition that understands how deeply undefended americans feel right now by this psychological onslaught, by the abuser in chief and by his shadow president. and it's going to take if you. >> are not. >> one of the people with the mettle to stand up to an autocratic coup, get out of the way. there are so many other jobs. become a lobbyist like you're probably planning to do anyway in a few years. accelerate that plan. get out of the way for people who know how to stand up and are adequate to this moment. >> and certainly. >> there's a lot of. >> debate among democrats right now as to who is that face, who is the leader for the party right now? who's going to play the role that nancy pelosi did during those first couple of years of trump's initial term in office? so now let's take a look at more from ryan noble's interview with senator

murkowski, who warned her republican colleagues not to cede their authority to president trump. >> when the. >> executive basically blows. >> by congress. >> or. >> rolls right over congress. and we allow. that we're. ceding our responsibility. i believe that you can absolutely be. >> a. >> 100% supporter of president. trump and still stand up for the institution of the senate, for the for the legislative branch, with our authorities that are prescribed to us specifically by the constitution. and so but but if we don't, if we just say, well, we like his policies. and so therefore. >> we're going to cede some. >> of our authorities don't think. >> that this is the. >> last time. >> you're going to see that. >> and joe klein, let's get your

take on this, because that has been one of the themes of the first month or so that trump's been in office, where those in congress, yes, republicans in congress, seem all too happy to relinquish their authority just to defer to him, setting potentially dangerous precedents. >> well. >> my take. >> is that. we should. >> listen to. >> and celebrate. >> the few republicans who. >> are standing up to trump. in the house. >> you have two military veterans. >> den don bacon. >> of nebraska. >> and brian. >> fitzpatrick of. >> pennsylvania, who. have been standing up. >> very courageously. >> i mean, you know. on on was talking about jen. >> psaki, but about. >> about rachel maddow. >> but a few months. >> ago, jen. >> psaki said. >> that it was a mistake. >> for kamala. harris to campaign. >> at the end. >> at the end of the. election with. >> lynne cheney. >> i don't.

>> think so. >> i think we have to celebrate. >> the acts. >> of courage. >> on the. >> republican side by people. like lynne cheney. >> the other. >> thing that we should look. to is this. >> that kamala. >> harris gave women a bad name. >> as politicians. >> you have. >> two very. promising and tough. women running. >> for. governor in new jersey. >> mikie sherrill. >> a. former helicopter pilot, a military. >> helicopter pilot, and abigail. >> spanberger in virginia. >> a former. >> cia agent. >> those two. sherrill. and spanberger. >> may be. >> the new face of the. democratic party. >> tough women. >> can whip wimpy men. and i think. >> that what. >> you got on. >> the republican side are, you know, muskrats. >> i call them brats. >> they need to be taken to the woodshed. >> well.

>> i will. >> i will. >> only say john lemire as as we've talked about before, as far as and certainly joe brings up some, i think, some rising stars in the, the democratic party. but as far as kamala harris goes, kamala harris had about 100 days, maybe 100 plus days to do something that nobody has ever done before. and the race was extraordinarily close all the way to the end. >> yeah. no, no question there. there's been a lot of, you know, as there is after every election, some second guessing to their campaign tactics and the like. but most democrats i've spoken to, including those in the west wing who were initially skeptical of her bid, said she did as well as she could have, considering the hand that she inherited after president biden's performance in the debate in atlanta. and then, you know, and the fundraising woes that accompanied that. she then took off and was able to raise plenty of money. and look,

was in a point or two, joe, as we know, in every single swing state. and that's what one of the major questions we've been grappling with over the last month or so is that trump and the republican supporting him are acting like they won this overwhelming mandate when this was an extraordinarily tight race. this is still a largely 5050 country. and there's at this giant risk for them of misinterpreting that mandate and really overreaching. >> well, let me just say it again. it is a 5050 country. on the same day that wisconsin voters, as i've said before, sent donald trump to the white house. they sent a lesbian to the united states senate. on the same day michigan voters sent donald trump to the white house. they sent a woman to the u.s. senate. on the same day, arizona voters sent donald trump to the white house. they sent a latino progressive to the united states senate. on the same day, nevada sent donald trump to the white house, they sent a jewish woman to the united states senate. an, by the way, in each one of those

cases, those were politicians who were known by people in their state more than 100 days than kamala harris. and there's also, of course, talk to james carville, a lot of other people. there is a brand problem with the democratic party, perhaps, that they need to talk through. but some candidates winning, regardless of that, jonathan rauch, just an extraordinary article in the atlantic yesterday. where, where, where you try to explain in one word exactly what type of government donald trump is running. there have been attempts since he got into office to sort of describe it, whether it was right wing, reactionary or authoritarian and waiting or fascist. but you say those words don't quite get at it. you say there is one word that best describes what type of government donald trump is running. tell us about it. >> well thank you. >> that word. >> is. >> patrimonialism kind of an odd

word. it's over 100 years old. it goes back to the great. >> german sociologist. >> max weber. it is probably the oldest and most common pre-modern form of government. and it's when the ruler rules. as if. >> the state. >> were the ruler's personal property or family business. >> it all. >> just belongs to them. and this is a form of government. it's not really a system. it's more like a style where the ruler replaces. >> the bureaucracy. >> with personal ties. so everyone has to be individually loyal to the ruler. and the qualification. >> isn't being qualified. >> it's being loyal. >> and you do this throughout. >> the government. >> that's what we're seeing. >> jonathan mara. >> gaye here with the new york times. how does patrimonialism took me a minute to make sure i said that properly. how does. that change? >> just ordinary. >> americans understanding. >> at this moment. >> of what is happening? a lot of. people are.

>> using different. >> terms, like. >> authoritarian. >> fascist. >> you know, explain that to folks who. >> maybe aren't involved in politics. and why is. >> it meaningful? >> well. >> it's subtle. >> and i think. >> the most important. >> people who need to. >> understand this are the strategists and the leaders in opposition to patrimonialism. the public may be also, but so this is not like classic. >> authoritarianism. >> and that's what we're. >> familiar with. >> from the national. >> socialists in. >> germany, the communists in the soviet union. were you set up a whole bureaucracy. >> bureaucratic structures. >> propaganda agencies, secret police, special militaries, politburos, and you bureaucratize authority. this is the opposite of that patrimonial bureaucracy. they just want personal ties. so it's like the mafia. >> the second. >> thing you have to. >> understand. >> patrimonialism can be and

frequently is democratic. at least initially. people will vote for it. you can think of putin initially, viktor orban, modi, and of course now trump. so it can take on the clothing of democratic mandate. and that's very different from authoritarianism. >> so you have to. >> fight it differently. it does have two critical. >> weaknesses, and that's how you can take it down. >> jonathan anand giridharadas here a question for you about the role of elon musk in all of this. i've been talking to a lot of historians who think about similar issues as you. and they've been saying, you know, a lot of this is very familiar. the history provides a lot of precedents for autocracy, authoritarianism, whatever the word is. but this. element of the buddy, the buddy movie element. >> is actually unusual. and generally. >> autocrats, it's sort of contained. >> in the. >> name, don't actually outsource half of their job to some other guy, whether it's kings or tyrants. vladimir putin, putin doesn't have a sidecar. can you explain. how

this element of a of a kind of elon musk shadow presidency fits into this story you're telling? >> oh, well. >> it's not. >> an elon musk. >> shallow presidency. >> musk gets. >> any authority he has. >> from his. personal ties to trump. trump could. >> cut it. >> off tomorrow. >> it's just that simple. >> we should not be mistaken. >> about this. >> elon musk does not have a department. he does not have a mandate. he does not have a bureaucracy. he is just a guy. pretending to be donald trump. this is about the personal ties of the of the boston charge. that's trump. >> the fascinating new piece is online now for the atlantic contributing writer jonathan rauch. thank you so much. and, joe klein, i want to go back to you, to your thoughts on the war in ukraine. of course, hitting the three year anniversary yesterday, for so long, the republican party prided itself as the self-described party of national security. russia hawks up and down the line. and now we're seeing a moment where the republican president is reciting

kremlin talking points, labeling the ukrainian president zelensky the dictator, suggesting that that's the nation that needs to pay for support and giving over its rare minerals. just talk to us about this evolution, reverse evolution of the republican party when it comes to moscow. >> well, yesterday, you know, i guess everybody has a. >> moment where. >> their. >> head explodes over the. craziness that's. >> going on. >> but the idea that we would vote with russia. >> and belarus and 11 other countries. >> not to. condemn russia. >> for its. >> brazen attack on ukraine, is a. >> moment of. >> utter infamy for the united states. >> it is. >> so disgraceful. >> and i think that you're. >> going to. >> see. >> in the months to come. >> some real. >> divisions within. >> the republican party. i mentioned don bacon. >> before. >> who said that this was an

embarrassing moment. i'd like to know what tom. cotton and. >> the. >> third ranking. republican in the senate is thinking. >> he already. >> has expressed reservations about colby. >> a high ranking pentagon official. that trump. >> is putting in. >> there is a. >> real rift between those who want to defend our country. >> and those. >> who don't. >> and this. is a very. >> dangerous world. >> now, and. >> i've yet. >> to hear a really concise and accurate. account of what. >> donald trump's. >> strategy is here. >> it seems that he's moving toward 19th century big, big. >> power mercantilism. he sees a three stool world. with a three legged. >> stool. >> maybe a three stool world. >> but but.

>> he he he. >> sees our real. opposition in china. >> he sees russia, perhaps as. a potential ally. he may be trying to do a reverse. nixon peeling. >> russia off. >> from from china. >> peeling russia. >> off from iran. >> that would be a very. sophisticated strategy. i but sophistication. >> is not. >> a word i normally associate with donald trump. >> i think a fair note of skepticism there. joe klein, thank you very much. his sanity clause newsletter available on substack. coming up ahead here on morning joe, our next guest says the democrats have no shot at containing president trump if they don't first understand why voters turn to him. new york times columnist nick kristof joins us next on morning joe to joins us next on morning joe to explain.

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>> i can. >> feel the winds. of change. >> coming up on the bottom of the hour now. morning at the white house and the trump administration can continue to deny access to one of america's preeminent news organizations, at least for now. the associated press filed a lawsuit against the white house after it was barred from the oval office and air force one over its refusal to call the gulf of mexico what trump prefers, which is the gulf of america. now, a federal judge has denied a request from the ap for a temporary restraining order, deciding he needs a full briefing before issuing a final ruling. however, judge trevor mcfadden, who is a trump appointee, did appear sympathetic to the ap's argument that the white house's actions appeared to punish the news organization over language choice, which he said amounted to viewpoint discrimination. the

ap. full disclosure i used to work has accused the white house of violating its first amendment rights. in a statement, the news organization said it will continue to stand for the right of the press and the public to speak freely without government retaliation. the white house did a real victory lap on this yesterday, calling the judge's ruling a win. and in a statement posted to the official account, the u.s. attorney for the district of columbia, ed martin, also celebrated the ruling and referred to his office as president trump's lawyers. and, joe, there should be two things here. first of all, i'm not sure why the u.s. attorney is weighing in at all. the ap is did not commit a crime. no one's suggesting that they did. and secondly, to reiterate, u.s. attorneys are very much not the president's personal lawyers. >> no they're not. never have been never been considered the president's personal attorneys. i am curious, is this something that republicans in the united

states senate on the judiciary committee may raise questions about, if not that that that is even more disturbing. let's bring in right now the president of the national action network and host of msnbc's politics nation, reverend al sharpton and new york times columnist nick kristof. and his latest piece, nick invites people to join his, quote, bewildered liberals book club. and nick, let me let me ask you about that. obviously, you see u.s. attorneys saying, i am donald trump's lawyer. you see every day, not only political norms being shattered, but constitutional norms. legal norms being shattered. and of course, a lot of it is intended to overwhelm, to bewilder. you, though, have said that liberals should read certain books to understand better what's going on. talk. talk about that, and

talk about your idea for the column where it came from. >> sure, joe. >> and i mean, you know, i'm appalled by. >> what has happened. >> with ap and in so many other ways. it reminds me. >> of the authoritarian countries i've lived in and i the way the press is treated, the way the government. >> is going after independent institutions and. >> trying to chip away at them. but what is just as frustrating is that democrats. >> aren't seen by many voters as a. >> credible alternative. and i think. the thing that just. >> kind of. >> breaks my. heart is that. >> while trump's. >> popularity has. >> dipped a little bit. >> ticked down a little bit in the last few days, he is still more popular now. >> than the higher approval. >> ratings than in november, and the idea that he could run roughshod over the constitution and crack down on the press and. >> you. >> know, pardon the. >> january 6th. >> people and switch sides. >> vis a vis russia. >> and yet. >> perhaps if the election were held today. >> perhaps win by an even larger margin, i think that forces those of us who are.

>> horrified by this to try to figure out. >> how we can be more effective. and i think that one of the challenges. >> and. one reason. >> why democrats aren't perceived. >> as more effective. is that they're. >> you know, in i'm talking to you from yamhill, oregon, very. working class area. is that too often they're perceived as these. >> educated folks. >> who just have. >> a different agenda and who don't care. >> about those, their issues. >> and i don't think that's entirely fair. but i do think. that democrats too often have condescended to. >> voters that they're trying. >> to reach, and that's not an. effective strategy. so my book club was really an. >> effort to. try to address that. i suggested. >> barbara kingsolver's demon. >> copperhead, which is. >> this, this amazing. >> tour of. >> the america that has been left behind and unraveling. and then the tyranny of merit by michael sandel at. >> harvard. which looks at the. >> whole idea of elitism and the. he argues that the last. >> acceptable prejudice.

>> in america. >> is that. >> held by the educated, toward the less educated. and finally, my times colleague david leonhardt's. book ours was the bright, shining. >> future, which. looks at. >> the way educated democrats, you know, didn't didn't sufficiently back. >> blue collar labor. unions to which they. >> didn't listen on issues like immigration, which, you know, in the us and europe and canada has been, you know, such. >> an important issue. >> empowering the nationalist right. >> and, of course, david leonhardt joined us just a couple hours ago right here on the show. let's just get your sort of your thoughts here about what nick is saying in the conundrum that democrats find themselves in, liberals find themselves in. >> i think that nick is right in the sense that the perception that the democrats, or at least the leadership, are a bunch of elitist and don't understand and don't us. empathize and identify. with the. average blue collar american is come to haunt

them. that that is maybe not true, but that is a projection and that is something that they have to actively, in my opinion, behave and campaign against that image. i talk about latte liberals. a lot of what we deal with is people that act as though we don't understand our own plight, and therefore they need to explain to us why. >> we are. >> in a different socioeconomic class than them. and i think that it is the approach. that you're looking down on people, people that you look down on don't necessarily look up to you. they look for alternatives to you. >> reverend al, you've been described as. preeminent civil rights leader, one of the most powerful voices in the democratic party. and yet, i have heard you talking this way for the last five years. i have heard you warning democrats repeatedly. i could you know, we

had a clip of me warning the sitter in europe about immigration over the past decade. i could go over the past five years and hear you issuing the same warnings to democrats time and time again. you call them latte liberals, and you say those that call themselves woke often aren't even awake to the suffering of people that you represent, that people that you fight for because they're too elite, especially on a lot of social issues. i mean, how long until i'm not saying all democrats, but how long until some of the leaders of the democratic party understand and start listening to you? >> i don't know. >> how long. >> it will. >> take, but i can tell you, as. long as they don't, they will be defeated because people are not. going to rally around people that they don't think is rallying around them. it's just that simple. right here in new

york, when we had certain cases that the elite wouldn't deal with in the democratic party, that's where a people like me fill the vacuum. it doesn't take rocket science. people want to relate to people. >> that relate. >> to them. and i think that that is something. >> that we are. >> seeing over and over again. and i learned that, joe, in the church, you can get up and preach theology. >> or you can talk. >> to people's experiences. and if you get up and use your platform. your pulpit, to just talk about how smart. you are in theology, you will not have anybody in the church if you deal with their everyday. problems situations. that is the kind of minister that people will come to hear. and i learned that there. and i've tried to say that to the democratic party. unfortunately, many of them don't want to understand that. >> hey, nick. >> how much of this you. >> to your mind is a messaging problem. >> versus a. >> sense among many. >> americans that.

>> national democratic. >> leaders. >> especially in washington. >> are. >> simply captured. >> by corporate interests? >> do you have any sense for that? >> i mean, we're. >> also seeing, of course, democratic. governors and senators. winning really. >> tough races across. >> the country. >> and so. that seems. >> to contrast with the way americans. >> feel about. >> democrats in washington. >> the leadership. >> so i. >> think. >> yeah, i mean, i think that. >> there. >> is a messaging problem. and i think if the conversation is about medicaid, democrats are going to do. >> a lot better than. >> if the conversation is about immigration. >> or about. >> you know, inclusion as democrats see it. >> but. >> you know, i mean, fundamentally, i do. think that. >> around the world. >> we're seeing this enormous tide against the establishment. and that's true in the us. it's true in europe and in canada. >> and one. >> of my concerns about the period going forward is that democrats will. >> be so horrified. >> by trump's. attacks on institutions. >> that they will appear to be

rushing. >> to defend the status quo in. >> ways that. >> i think, you know, won't resonate with, with people. and so how one navigates that and protecting important institutions and yet not. appear to be buttressing a status quo that is really broadly discredited, i. >> think is. >> a hard thing to navigate. but i do think it's possible. and i. >> think the other fear i. >> have. >> about the. >> period going. >> forward is that. >> you know, in the first trump term, he pushed me to the left, and i think he pushed an awful lot of liberals to the. left on issues like immigration. and, you know, i'm the son of a refugee. i saw families being ripped apart. i just wanted to hug any refugee i could see, any immigrant i could see. but meanwhile. voters were saying over and over, look, you know, we want we want controls. and i don't think we listen to them. and when you systematically don't listen to people about something they regard as a priority, then they punish you. and i think that's what happened in the us and, you know, in

germany and elsewhere. >> yeah, really smart analysis there. the new column available to read online now, new york times columnist nicholas kristof nicholas, thank you as always. still ahead here, we'll take a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning, including the major payout coming to doordash workers. plus, we're going to remember the legendary career of roberta flack. we'll be right back with that. >> so which would you recommend? >> do you like brown? >> yeah. some things are just better at home. with empire's home floor advantage. you can compare samples in your own space. >> call or visit empire today.com and get the. home floor advantage. >> empire today. these are. >> people who are trying. >> to change. >> the world. >> startups have. >> this energy that energizes me. i'm thriving by helping others thrive. insurify. otat insurify we make it easy >> every day.

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>> listen now. >> we're going to start with breaking news on capitol hill. >> mounting questions. >> over the future. >> of. >> tiktok in the us. >> president trump has promised to carry out the largest deportation force in american history. >> the surge of international outrage following suggestion that the us take control of gaza. >> the congressional progressive. caucus calling for elon musk. >> to be. >> fired from his position. reporting from. >> philadelphia. >> el paso. >> in the palisades. >> virginia, from. msnbc world headquarters here in new york. >> welcome back. time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. doordash will pay nearly $17 million to settle claims that it unfairly used customer tips to subsidize the wages of its delivery workers in new york. more than 60,000 workers are expected to be eligible, and the payout per worker could reach $14,000. the food delivery company ended the controversial practice in 2019

after widespread public backlash. doordash, though, did not admit to any law violations. according to the terms of the settlement. to utah, now, it's becoming it's on the verge of becoming the first state to fully ban fluoride in its public water systems. the bill passed the utah senate on friday and now heads to the governor's desk. last fall, a federal judge ordered the epa to regulate fluoride in drinking water because high levels could pose a risk to kids intellectual development. widely considered one of the greatest public health achievements of the last century, fluoride is scientifically proven to strengthen the enamel on teeth and prevent cavities. nearly two thirds of the us population drinks water with fluoride in it. meanwhile, thieves have targeted freight trains running through the deserts of california and arizona in a

series of organized robberies that has resulted in the theft of over 2 million worth of nike shoes. in one incident, suspects cut an air brake hose on a train making off with 1900 pairs of unreleased shows, unreleased shoes worth nearly $450,000. at least ten heists have targeted trains in remote areas of the mojave desert. 11 people were charged in one burglary after they were caught with the assistance of tracking devices inside some of the shoe boxes. feels like we've got our script for ocean's 14 this morning. now, we also remember the incomparable grammy winning singer roberta flack. she died last night at the age of 88. nbc news correspondent joe fryer has more on the singer's life and legacy. >> i strumming my pain. singing

my life with his words. >> roberta flack's. >> velvety voice was heard. >> across generations. >> but for many. >> fans of flack. >> the first. time ever, they heard her voice. >> the first time. >> was in clint. >> eastwood's 1971. movie play misty for me. >> ever i saw your face. >> the song in the film. catapulted flack. >> to overnight stardom. >> she quickly. >> followed up with. >> another smash, killing me softly. >> killing me softly with his song. >> the two. >> songs made. >> flack the. >> first artist. >> to ever win. back to back grammys for record. >> of the year. >> ooh. that's the time. >> flack story. >> began when. >> she started. >> playing piano. >> at. >> age nine. >> my father went. >> to what was. >> obviously a junkyard to get this, because when. >> the. piano came back. >> there was such an odor. >> she was a prodigy. >> earning a. full music scholarship to howard. >> university when she was 15.

>> tonight i celebrate my love. >> she scored. >> another hit in the 80s. >> a. >> romantic duet with peabo bryson. >> now. >> flack collaborated. >> with many. >> other greats. >> including stevie. >> wonder. >> who wrote. >> don't make me. >> wait too long. >> flack shared. >> her special. >> friendship with wonder on. today back in 1991. >> i've had stevie wonder. >> call me. >> up. >> at 3:00. >> in the morning and sing to me, and it's wonderful. >> a new generation. >> was. reintroduced to flack's music. >> strumming my pain with his finger. >> when the fugees covered killing me softly. when i recorded. >> killing me softly in 1972, i had the same kind of goosebumps, you know, when i sang it, performed it, recorded it, thought about it as i, as i. >> do now. >> when i hear the fugees singing. >> stars like. >> jennifer hudson are calling her one of the great.

>> soul singers. >> of all time. and maggie rogers shared. >> this live cover of. >> flack's iconic song. >> killing me softly with his song. can be sung. now let's bring in music critic who covers jazz for the new york times, giovanni russonello. he also is a co-founder and editor in chief of capital top, a nonprofit organization dedicated to promoting, presenting and preserving jazz in washington, dc. giovanni, thank you so much for being with us. so my i've spent my entire life obsessed with music, listening to music. and i will say there are very few songs that when i hear them stop me dead in my tracks wherever i am and demand that i stop, close my eyes and listen. killing, not killing me softly. the first time ever i saw your face is one of those songs. and i always had trouble putting into words what was so

remarkable about it. but you have a line talking about roberta flack here, and i love it. critics often struggled to describe the understated strength of her voice. it is, isn't it? it's the understatement of that song. how slowly she she she pushed her producers to record it. and then, as you say, the understated strength of her voice. >> yeah. >> it's so good to be here. >> talking about the. >> the. >> incomparable roberta flack. thanks for having me on. the thing that made her so special. >> was really that she never pressed and never pushed to get her message through. >> she let the song. >> really run through. >> her own. >> being before she. gave it back to the world. her experience with that song. >> was, you know, performing it for a small. >> nightclub audience, like. hundreds of other songs that she had in. >> her repertoire as. >> a. >> young singer. >> in. >> d.c. and then when she

brought it to the world. >> she knew how people. understood that song. >> from up close. >> she had a feeling for. people's love for the music. >> because it was. >> it was personal. >> for her, too. >> the thing. >> about flack, and i hope for those who haven't. >> you know, maybe younger people who. >> haven't heard her music. >> you'll just go back and. >> listen today because it is that understatement. it is that willingness not to over. >> overdo things or not to even step. >> into what. >> we presume to be. >> a pop stars. >> role of almost. >> sort of showing. >> us how to feel. but or i should say, telling. >> us, you know, her. >> her. >> way was more to show to show the. >> experience emotionally through her delivery. >> and reverend al, of course, you knew her well and she's other artists could learn an awful lot from from what she did to become successful. she recorded this album in the late 60s, and when she was recording

the first time ever, i saw your face, the producers kept saying, speed it up, speed it up. you're going too slow. and she she insisted that they go at a slow. she said, almost sort of a death march pace. and that is what grabbed clint eastwood's attention three years later when somebody was playing a song on a radio and he listened to it, and he just sat there and listened and said, my god, i'm going to put this in my first movie that i direct. and sure enough, he did. and the rest, as they say, is history. all because. >> she. >> as an artist, knew what she wanted. and even if she had to wait a couple of years, that's exactly what she did. >> yes, that is correct. i think that one of the things she would always say in private is that you've got to listen to your own inner voice, what is coming through your head, and don't

worry about whether it becomes commercially successful or not. be true to your own voice, the silent voice inside of you. and you must remember joe. she emerged in the early 70s when a lot of the soul singers and rhythm and blues at that time was more hard hitting, more fast paced, and it really didn't make sense to a lot of people in the music business that someone singing a sultry, slow sound could become as big as she became. she never compromised what she was doing. she was extremely into what music was about, and she did it that way until some of them started imitating her, or at least covering her music. a phenomenal artist and a game changer. and also she was very active in civil rights at the same time. >> and speaking of those covers, as we just saw in joe fryer's report, roberta flack's hit song killing me softly saw new life in the 1990s, when the hip hop collective the fugees released their own version of the track.

here they are, performing it along with flack, at the 1996 mtv video music awards, london. >> my pain. >> with this. finger. singing. >> my life. >> with miss word two times. >> killing me softly. >> with his song killing me softly. with his song. telling my whole life. >> in his. words. killing me so. >> giovanni, thank you for. for your for your peace. and for this conversation i. that that. cover i remember i. >> was i. >> don't regularly spend time in a weight room, but that one winter i was forced into the weight room in my high school and i was in the weight room and they played that cover on the radio. and i don't think i've ever had this happen in my life before. they played the song and

one other guy in the weight room, we were just like, what was that? >> and they came back on. >> they played a couple songs and then the guy said, we've never done this before, but we're going to just play it again because of the phone calls we're getting. the whole city of washington, d.c. was like, what was that? right? and i wanted to ask you about her embracing or not of a cover. she clearly did embrace it. artists sometimes have a complicated relationship to that kind of homage that can eclipse you. how did she embrace that cover? >> well. >> in a similar way as. >> she seemed to. >> embrace most things very generously. >> very openly. >> and with a spirit of. you don't want to say overemphasize humility here because she's such. >> a powerful. >> person, but she had a sense. >> of. >> selflessness in the face of the. >> music. and i think she just. >> recognized that they loved the music and they were doing something special. and just in the same way that when she. >> first. >> heard lori lieberman's cover. >> of that song playing on an american airlines. >> flight. >> and i. think it was 1972, she

felt the excitement of just falling in love with the melody. and it was that. >> feeling that. >> that she. >> communicated. >> and i. >> think everybody feels. but to. >> touch back on something that. >> the reverend said. >> earlier. >> she was involved, although quietly, in civil rights and in things. >> you know. >> causes all over the map. >> she was somebody. >> who played benefit. >> concerts from the. >> beginning of her career, all the way until the end. >> of her life. you know, she was playing one for save. >> the children. >> in 2021. >> and she was just somebody. >> she helped found a school in. >> the bronx, and she was spokesperson. >> for the. >> aspca, who allowed them to use. >> the first time. >> i ever saw your face for free. in tv ads. so she's. somebody who i think allowed love. >> to come through. >> both in the music and in her actions, and i think it's felt on every track. >> it certainly is. thank you so much, music critic for the new york times, giovanni russonello. we greatly appreciate it. and little known trivia here. killing me softly, inspired by

don mclean and the songwriter watching don mclean perform one of his songs live. that does it for us. this morning on cabrera picks up the coverage in two minutes. >> ever. i saw your face. i thought the sun. rose in your thought the sun. rose in your eyes. tracey from lillie's of charleston will watch 60 contestants eat 60 hot wings all covered in lillie's hot sauce oh honey, don't touch your face will be in this ad 60% of the time

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