dry. >> the first 100 days. it's a critical time for our country. and rachel maddow is on five nights a week. >> now is the time. so we're going to do it. settle in. >> the rachel maddow show weeknights at nine on msnbc. >> we're going to start with breaking. >> news on capitol hill. >> mounting questions over the future of tiktok in the us. >> reporting from philadelphia. >> el paso. >> in the palisades. >> virginia, from. >> msnbc world. >> headquarters here in. >> new york. >> good to be with you. >> i'm katy tur. tell me what you did last week or get fired. no, don't do that. yes, do do that. if you don't, then you're

fired or semi fired. but wait, it was all just a test and you failed. so here's one last chance. tell me what you did last week. no, don't do that. are you confused? because i am? i was confused trying to write that today. trying to make sense of the back and forth. and i'm trying to make sense of this from the outside. imagine if you were on the inside. imagine if you were a federal worker trying to figure out who exactly to listen to right now. is it elon musk? is it marco rubio? is it kash patel? is it h.r. donald trump? it beats me. and now, to add to the confusion, there's a mass resignation. except this time it's doge staffers who are collectively calling it quits, 21 of them signing on to a letter that says doge is putting the country in danger, saying, quote, we will not use our skills as technologists to compromise core government systems, jeopardize american sensitive data, or dismantle critical public services. we

will not lend our expertise to carry out or legitimize doj's actions. so what in the world is going on? joining us now, nbc news white house correspondent vaughn hillyard, nbc news chief capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. vaughn, i trulyo not understand what is happening right now within the federal government. and if you are a federal worker who you're supposed to be listening to, whether donald trump and elon musk are on the same page, and whether donald trump is actually secretly saying things behind the scenes to other government heads. can you make any sense of this? >> i think that through all of this, it's so important that we take into the context. katy, the number of government workers, myself. i know you other colleagues have talked to that say that there is anger, there is concern, there is consternation and confusion just to do their daily work. and the execution of that work at a time

where their friends and colleagues have either been fired, placed on administrative leave, or have been left in limbo, and those that are still existing are trying to figure out whether to reply to an email or not. and in the case of phil sussman, he is a ten year army veteran who served one of his tours in northern syria. i just talked to him a few moments ago. he was working at usaid. he actually moved his family here in washington, d.c, to work in the middle east bureau of usaid on the syria desk. his family home in florida, in saint petersburg, was washed out in a hurricane last year. and he started this job in november. and just last night, late last night, i talked to him just about an hour after he received a termination letter. and i want to read one line to you, katie here in his termination letter. it said very specifically, quote, i am terminating you on the basis that it is in the best interest of the us government. i ask that army veteran phil

sussman about what that message meant to him and to his message to not only president trump, but elon musk. take a listen. >> i think. >> there. >> are consequences to the things. >> that are. >> happening right now, and we may not. >> feel it now. and most. >> of. >> the. >> country may not. >> even feel it now, but we all will at some point. and i think it's important that we put a face or we put faces on what's happening. these are real american lives, real american lives being lost right now. this isn't a meme. this isn't a tweet. this is myself and my wife and my three children who don't know how we're going to pay the mortgage next month. you know, this is someone that has spent their people that i work with have spent their entire lives dedicated to helping others, sacrificing for others. i worked with an afghan immigrant. she came over as a child, and her entire life has been about supporting the united states and our mission overseas and helping others. and she's losing her job. we're all losing our jobs. the people that truly care, like the selfless members, like some of the most selfless members of our society, as

selfless as any any person i ever worked with in uniform, carrying a gun. the people i worked side by side with in usaid who truly cared. and we're casting them aside, and we're saying that you don't matter. >> phil sussman said. it's about more than families like his own or the other thousands of employees. katie. but he said, for instance, in his position, he worked as effectively a liaison between usaid and the partners on the ground distributing humanitarian aid in syria. there is now a void because of his termination. it's stories like that here that i think will increasingly rise to the forefront of this conversation as we watch elon musk effectively go through and continue this purge of federal workers across the federal government. >> i'm hearing from him and hearing that he's going to struggle to pay the mortgage next year. i mean, that is a human face on this. at the same time you hear that, you see elon musk running around with a chainsaw and laughing about how they're cutting government

workers and claiming that all these folks are corrupt. and you just saw, you know, one of the people that got laid off right there, putting again, a human face on this, not a meme, as he said. ryan, you're also getting a lot of blowback for lawmakers, democrats and republicans, democrats who want democrats to stand up and be louder about this and to fight harder, and republicans facing voters in town halls who say, i'm sorry i didn't elect a king. i elected a guy who would be a part of a system of government. and you're the other guy or gal i elected, and you're part of that system, too. what are you doing? why are you abdicating your responsibility? has any of that feedback come back into the halls of capitol hill? any any changes that you're seeing? >> i think, katie, what we're seeing develop right now. >> is at. >> least a. >> degree of mild criticism from a very small group of republican members, not. >> necessarily about. >> the end. >> goal for elon musk in the doge operation, but the way that

they're going about implementing it. and i do think it is in part as as you rightly point out, the heat that they're taking in these public town halls, the volume of calls that they're getting to their offices as well. and what we saw play out here today is that you are now in something that we couldn't find a week ago, two weeks ago, a month ago, people willing to criticize the administration's process here, saying that they need to go about trying to execute this goal of reducing the federal workforce with a little bit more dignity, with a little bit more grace. take a listen to what some of them had to say. >> i'm all for the government. i am. >> all for also. >> doing it in. >> a deliberate manner that. >> allows people. >> to adjust. >> to their lifestyles. >> i think they need to be more targeted and they need to be more thoughtful. i think so. things are happening a little bit too fast and furiously, i think, and that's why we've had some of these unintended consequences. >> just a little bit of. >> humanity and. >> dignity to the process, i think, is what many of the

alaskan. >> federal employees. >> are asking for. and i don't think that that's asking for too much. >> and that's lisa murkowski there at the end from alaska, who i spoke to yesterday. and she was very interesting in the way that she went about this. she said that that email that you were talking about earlier, katie, was intimidating for these federal government employees and that these are the folks that make sure that our wildfires don't grow out of control in our nation's forests, are the ones that are are trying to research drugs to try and cure als. she had a long list of these things that she says federal government workers are on the front lines trying to fix and protect. and she said the way that they're being treated right now just is unfair. and this is not the way to go about completing this mission of making government more efficient. >> yeah. the second lawmaker there saying that, i just threw my pen across the table, the second lawmaker there saying that these are unintended consequences. i think that the issue here is that these are the intended consequences. if you're somebody like elon musk, they intentionally are not doing this surgically. i keep saying

surgically, no, they're just doing this. they're taking a hammer to all of it. they're taking a chainsaw. as elon musk was waving around. the other weird thing that i don't have a good answer for is who exactly is running the show here? it appears to be elon musk, but the white house won't say it is. and then today, caroline leavitt was asked this again by a reporter. and here's what she said. >> can you. >> tell us who the administrator of dodge is? >> again, i've been asked to answer this question. elon musk is overseeing dodge. there are career. >> there are. >> no elon. >> musk is a special government employee, which i've also been asked and have answered that question as well. >> there are. >> career officials at dodge. there are political appointees at dodge. i'm not going to reveal the. >> name of that individual. >> from this podium. i'm happy to follow up and provide that to you, but we've been incredibly transparent about the way that dodge is working. >> they've been incredibly transparent, but they cannot

name the individual in charge of dodge, the administrator from that podium. i'm sorry, lisa, is this a national security position? is this person working under cover? is there a reason why their identity can't be known by the american public? >> i don't think so. and, katie, you and i both know that every four years, the identity of thousands of political appointees is revealed in something called the plum book, which gathers up people of that status or designation. the other thing that's really interesting is that not only can the white house not tell the press corps who the administrator of dodge is, but yesterday in a washington federal courthouse, a doj lawyer also couldn't say who the dodge administrator was. judge colleen. >> couldn't say or wouldn't say. >> could not say, did not have that information at their disposal. they were asked what mr. musk's role was with respect to dodge, the department of justice lawyer said all i can say is he is a close advisor to the president. but when asked and pressed who the

administrator of dodge was, the person did not know. and i think that's by design. i think they are making this up in some respects as they go along, because they do not want elon musk to have to be a defendant to some of these lawsuits. you and i both know we've been tracking a variety of different lawsuits against dodge, including with respect to their access to payment system information. that's what this hearing yesterday was about. but if you can't even name the proper defendant, you can't get off the floor. you can't get. >> could there be a lawsuit to get a name? i mean. >> yeah, sure. >> you can name a defendant. for example, you can say katy tur versus john doe number one. >> katy tur versus the department of government efficiency. >> sure. >> and but i think what they are trying to do here is sort of obfuscate who is actually running dodge and what dodge is, because in most cases, an agency that has the power that dodge does needs to be run by somebody who is senate confirmed. and as we all know, that person is not

elon musk. >> you know, we try in this show to give you information to straighten things out, to help you understand a moment to take what is confusing and to make it understandable. and i'm leaving the segment now more confused than when i started it. i guess that is my intention. lisa, thank you so much. >> not my intention, katy. >> not your intention, of course. ryan and vaughn guys, thank you very much. still ahead, the atlantic's anne applebaum on what donald trump's new alignment with russia means for the future of u.s. foreign policy. we're talking about rearmament of europe. is that a good idea? and the associated press loses its fight for access to the white house, at least for now. what a judge just ruled that raises first amendment and first amendment red flags. plus, another high stakes test for speaker mike johnson. what he needs to do to get the president's big, beautiful bill, in his words, passed in the gop led house. does he have the

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risk of stroke. symptoms like irregular heartbeat, heart racing, chest pain, shortness of breath, fatigue, or light-headedness, can come and go. but if you have afib, the risk of stroke is always there. if you have one or more symptoms, get checked out. making that appointment can help you get ahead of stroke risk. this is no time to wait. feeling backed up and bloated? good thing metamucil fiber plus probiotics gummies work harder for your digestive system. with fiber to help promote gut health. and probiotics to help relieve occasional bloating. so you can feel your best. metamucil fiber plus probiotics gummies. >> the uk is arming up prime minister keir starmer announced a major boost in the country's military spending ahead of a meeting with president trump on thursday. >> this week when i meet president trump, i will be clear i want this relationship to go

from strength to strength. starting today, i can announce this government will begin the biggest sustained increase in defense spending since the end of the cold war. >> the starmer following french president emmanuel macron, is expected to use the oval office meeting with donald trump to try to convince him to stick by europe as it sticks by ukraine. joining us now, staff writer with the atlantic and author of autocracy, inc. the dictators who want to run the world and applebaum. and it's really good to be here with you. i guess the question i have that's been bugging me, there was a reason why europe started to disarm itself. it was it got very tense, very angry, led to a couple of pretty big fights that we all got involved in with. they've been leaning heavily on us now for the past 70, 80 years. is it a is it? what sort of world are we walking into when europe starts to rearm? the western nations start to rearm and they start to take a more

forceful position. without the united states. >> you're really. >> right to. >> point to the big. >> picture. >> because this is really something extraordinary that's happening 80 years of a world in which america's well, i should say, america helped create zones of prosperity and safety in europe as well as asia, to the benefit of the united states, to the benefit of u.s. companies, to the benefit of u.s. culture, and to the benefit of everybody involved, actually is now coming to an end. trump president trump has indicated that he, in many different ways, that he doesn't feel aligned with europe. he doesn't see the united states as the leader of the democratic world. he doesn't need those kinds of alliances. he's not planning on using them. and in elsewhere in the world, as american presidents did in the past. and that is leading europeans to redefine who they are and what they want to be. and yes, there will be more defense spending. there will be

conversations. i mean, i don't want to be apocalyptic, but there will be certainly conversations among u.s. allies in europe and asia about nuclear weapons. do we need them now? you know, if the if the u.s. nuclear umbrella is no longer is no longer guaranteed and, you know, a system that was created to avoid war, to push away war, as i said, to create prosperity is now going to be slowly replaced with something very different. and i'm not sure that americans are going to like it. >> maybe this is a dumb question to ask, but i'm going to ask it anyway. just looking at the way donald trump talks about the world and what he's wanted to do since he's come back to office. you know, he wants to take greenland. he wants canada to be the 51st state. he wants to retake the panama canal, taking over gaza. he's cozying up toward vladimir putin again as putin wants to expand his territory. he also has an affinity for ms. it seems like maybe there's some affinity there, although it's kind of unclear toward towards xi jinping. is this somebody who

who has intentions of creating a new world order that looks more like the empire system of the past? is that is that just taking a leap too far? >> all i can say is, if that's what he if he's not doing that, then he's sounding a lot like it. i mean, you're absolutely right. he speaks about other countries, other sovereign countries as if they were fake states or failed states. he talks about other territory that's not part of the united states, as if it should be his, as if it should be somehow handed over without without question. he's you know, he's he's he's acting as if borders don't matter. he's he's aligning himself with other dictators who have also treated their neighbors poorly and treated their own populations poorly. you know, russia is a repressive state in which there is no freedom of speech, in which opposition leaders are murdered. is that the kind of state that

the united states wants to resemble? is that the is that the leader? is putin the leader that that that the united american president admires and whose language he imitates? i'm i'm wondering whether americans are going to be happy that their country is no longer seen as a democracy around the world, or seen as a country that promotes stability, you know, and safety and prosperity. and whether they're going to be happy with an america aligned with aggressive, extortionate dictatorships, it it's a very, very big change. >> can we linger on that? when you say americans aren't going to be happy with that change, what is it going to look like for us? and i know you've written also about doge. i wonder this doge experience and what elon musk is trying to do to the federal government. does that fold in to this new vision of how this country aligned with these other authoritarian governments might look in the future? might or they might be pushing us toward? >> i mean, maybe i mean, i was

listening to your last segment, actually, and i, i was listening to people talk about why why musk is using these particular kinds of tactics. i mean, it seems very clear to me that his intention is not to create government efficiency. then why would he be firing random people? he might be firing good people. his intention is to change the nature of the civil service so that civil servants become loyalists. so they they pass purity tests so that they're afraid to have their own views. they're they're they're they respond only to the whim of the leader. i mean, that does sound like political systems that, to most americans would be pretty unfamiliar. so it feels like both domestically and internationally, they're seeking to change the nature of who we are, who we have been, at least for the last 80 years. and i think as americans begin to understand that the nature of their country, the definition of who we are is becoming something different. they they might be very surprised. >> do you think that there is a

chance for emmanuel macron, for keir starmer, for western leaders, to convince donald trump to stick by them? we saw emmanuel macron trying to give what is, i mean, probably a masterclass, all things considered, in somebody who is not aligned with donald trump trying to flatter his way into alignment, trying to pretend like they're the best of friends and then gently push back where he needed to. do you see that as as having any runway? >> it's hard to know for them to know what to do, because flattery makes you look idiotic. and i don't think president trump really respects it. and, you know, anger doesn't have any impact either. that's that's not successful. i mean, i think what's gradually going to happen is that we will see european leaders beginning to make their own path and make decisions that may not be beneficial to the united states, but decisions about trade and decisions about security that will lead them in a different direction. i mean, we're still in the very

beginning of this, of this change, this this big sea change, and maybe it's not going to go very well. and maybe, you know, it will hit a roadblock pretty soon. and, you know, the change won't be as dramatic as it looks right now. but you can already hear people in europe and asia and other american allies around the world, but also others who have admired the united states for what it was in the past are beginning to say, we need something different now. and so for the moment, they'll they'll continue talking to trump and doing their best. i mean, you can't really ask them to do anything else, but in the future you might hear different kinds of voices. >> and applebaum, really good to have you. thank you so much for joining us today. appreciate it. thanks. coming up, what a judge just ruled in a lawsuit brought by the associated press over white house access and what the white house just said about anyone in the press who might want access to the president. plus, speaker johnson, get his budget bill across the finish line. why? he might have some trouble. and what democrats are saying they're planning on

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developments inside the trump administration's department of justice. >> the administration. doesn't necessarily want to be questioned. >> on any. >> of its policy. >> main justice. new episodes drop every tuesday. >> donald trump is defending the mass firings. of federal watchdogs. >> our federal government. >> now can. >> discriminate against the citizens. >> of the country. >> we are all watching and waiting to see who is. >> going to hold the line. >> don't miss the weekends, saturday and sunday. >> mornings at. >> 8:00. >> on msnbc. >> yesterday, a federal judge rejected the associated press's plea for a restraining order against the white house, which means the news agency will still be banned from the white house's press conferences. banned from air force one, banned from any white house event. this afternoon, white house press

secretary caroline leavitt had some choice words about who this white house believes should get access. >> as you all know, for. >> decades. >> a group of d.c. based journalists, the white house correspondents association, has long dictated which journalists get to ask questions of the president of the united states and these most intimate spaces. >> not anymore. i am proud. >> to announce that we are going to give the power back to the people who read your papers, who watch your television shows, and who listen to your radio stations. moving forward, the white house press pool will be determined by the white house press team. >> back with me. msnbc legal analyst lisa rubin. this is a weedy one, a hairy one, because it's one of those areas where you assume there was a law, but now you realize it's just a norm. >> yes, although there is some law at play here. and the question is, is there viewpoint discrimination going on by the white house? katie, i want to

take issue with one quick thing that you said. >> oh, please. >> the issue is not whether the associated press gets access, for example, to the white house briefing room. that is unimpeded. the question here is, can the white house decide who gets access to what they would consider private or quasi private spaces like the oval office, like air force one? and that's where they have blocked the associated press. and that's also where the norms come in. right? the norm is that the white house correspondents association typically has determined who the white house press pool is. and if an event is for the white house press pool, anybody who is a member of that press pool can come in. the associated press is a member of that pool. and yet they have been barred from a number of oval office events in recent days because they refuse to accept the new nomenclature on the gulf. >> they refuse. >> to say gulf of america. so they can't go into the white house. >> all right. correct. and so yesterday, judge carl, i'm sorry, judge trevor mcfadden and the federal court in d.c. basically saying, look, you have not established enough of enough

to show me that you'd be irreparably harmed at this stage so that i would enter a temporary restraining order. but i will take more briefing from both sides on an expedited basis, because the case law government is not in your favor. he basically said to them yesterday, uniformly, the case law doesn't favor you. what you're doing here looks like pretty clear viewpoint discrimination. you don't like that they won't accept calling it the gulf of america, and therefore you've excluded them solely on that basis and not excluded others. that seems pretty clear to me. white house and department of justice. so it will be interesting to see how on march 20th, when they come back for a hearing before judge mcfadden, whether or not he orders them to reinstate the associated press. >> all right. lisa rubin, we're going to follow this. thank you very much. speaker mike johnson says he has been making progress with moderates who raised concerns about potential medicaid cuts. but will that be enough to adopt house republicans multi-trillion

dollar budget? johnson does seem to think so. >> we're very, very close and we're excited about the progress. and i'm very positive and i'm absolutely convinced we're going to get this done. >> joining us now, nbc news congressional correspondent julie sirkin. so democrats are saying they're not going to sign on to this. not a single one of them. >> exactly. katie. and i don't think johnson should be so optimistic, because the closer he moves in the direction of moderates, the farther he's moving out of the direction of conservatives. i just talked to congresswoman victoria spartz of indiana, who is circling around the speaker suite. and she told me she is still very much. a hard no. tonight on the final budget resolution in the house, she actually told me that she won't get to yes until and unless speaker johnson moves from the $1.5 trillion in cuts to two and a half to $3 trillion in cuts. that is astronomical. astronomical to even envision. because even at the $1.5 trillion, $2 trillion in cuts,

if you don't touch medicaid and you don't touch medicare and you don't touch food stamps, it is impossible to see how the math works in that scenario. you mentioned democrats leader jeffries spoke about this this morning. let's listen and we'll talk about it on the other side. >> children will be devastated. families will be devastated. people with disabilities will be devastated. seniors will be devastated. hospitals will be devastated. nursing homes will be devastated. so let me be clear. house democrats will not provide a single vote to this reckless republican budget. not one. >> here's the thing. if johnson wants this house budget resolution to pass tonight, maybe some pressure from the other side of pennsylvania avenue. mr. trump in the white house, for example, who we are told has been talking to some members, trying to make them see the light on this. maybe that's one avenue he could take. but the more occurring avenue, the more logical avenue that i see this happening in. is that

enough democrats will not show up for the vote, therefore dwindling the amount of republicans that they can afford to lose and giving johnson a little bit more cushion. four of them didn't show up to the rule to the procedural vote a couple of hours ago. we'll see if that sticks, but that's really not good strategy. if you're relying on the other side of the aisle to not show up for the vote. >> julie, julie, thank you very much. and still ahead, what one author says progressives are getting wrong about the government and what they should do instead. and from pro-trump podcaster to fbi deputy director, what dan bongino's ascension means for kash patel's vision of the fbi. who are they going to focus on? don't go anywhere. >> scope the timesaver. >> 90s. >> and you're done. start >> and you're done. start shaver. a time saver. shop now. dry... tired... itchy, burning...

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1-800-403-7539. that's one. (800) 403-7539. >> as the trump administration fundamentally overhauls the federal government, democrats are trying to figure out where it all went wrong. the atlantic's mark dunkelman argues that the problem is deeply rooted in the history of the progressive movement itself. as he puts it, quote, over the past half century progressivism, cultural aversion to power has turned the democratic party into an institution that almost instinctively seeks to cut government down. progressives are so fearful of establishment abuse that reformers tend to prefer to tighten rather than loosen their grip on authority. the movement discounts whatever good the government might do in

service of ensuring that it won't do bad. and that's driven well intentioned reformers to insert so many checks into the system that government has been rendered incompetent. joining us now, fellow at brown university's watson watson institute for international and public affairs and author of the new book, why nothing works who killed progress and how to bring it back, mark dunkelman. i loved this piece, mark. i loved it, i thought it very incisively put the problem within the democratic party. and there was a message on how to fix it. and when you're talking about the democrats and their desire to make sure the government doesn't do harm in order for it to do good, i think there are so many great examples, one of them being the million dollar toilet in san francisco, one toilet costing $1 million because of all the red tape and all the reviews that had to go into it before it was actually installed. >> absolutely. >> that's a terrific example. >> and they abound. >> every person. >> in this country has had some.

>> experience where they. >> just thought to themselves, why can't. >> they fix this? >> and it. >> doesn't happen. and it's not because. >> someone is lazy or poorly intentioned. >> is that we've. >> created so many protections. against bad people in the government doing bad things. we've made it impossible for good people to do good works. >> it's also why you're seeing building, for instance, in red states happen so much faster and easier than you see in blue states. you get more affordable housing in a red state or a red city than you do in a place where affordable housing is a top priority because of all the different reviews again, that go into it. so when you're talking about diagnosing the problem, just just give us, in your words again, what exactly is the issue with the democratic party. and then we'll talk about how to fix it. >> yeah. so my general view. >> is that. >> we had a reaction in the 1960s and 70s to all of. >> these terrible projects. >> that moved forward. >> that highways built across

working class neighborhoods, dams built all. >> sorts of. >> all sorts of environmental degradation. >> and we thought to ourselves, what we need. >> to do is to create new checks on the government in every way. so the environmental, the environment is preserved so that so that communities are preserved. and what's happened is that over the course of the 50. years we've done. so many checks. >> we've created. >> so many checks into the system that it's just impossible for anything to get done. and these are two legitimate impulses. you both want government to do great things, and you want government not to do bad ones. you just have to balance those two in a way that makes sense. >> okay. so in order to address this right now, you have the republican party led by elon musk and donald trump saying we're going to burn it all down. the system doesn't work. and it's resonated with enough americans to get them elected because enough americans have had the experience of why can't they fix this when it doesn't

get fixed? how does the democratic party then approach trying to combat that desire? how do they defend the system without defending the system? >> yeah, i think we need to be honest about what's happened. we need to be talking ourselves about our frustrations with government, and we need to understand that the solution to the problem is not to create new checks. we've put lots of checks on. we need to be okay when a powerful government figure makes a big, important decision, we need to be thinking to ourselves in each case, who is it that we think should be empowered to choose where the bridge goes, where the highway goes, where the high speed rail goes, whether there can be housing in this neighborhood or that neighborhood. and in each case, we need to be okay, that there's going to be someone who makes the decision. and if we don't like the outcome, that's okay, because we had our voice. we can't be be litigious to the end in all situations. we need to

create systems that that come to resolution. >> yeah, i've heard that that one of the problems that the democrats would face in this before donald trump got started, that one of the problems that they face in this new term is the desire and the need for a lot of occasions to sue, to, to stop the things that donald trump is doing. but when you sue so much, you create this reflexive. quality to the government to say, i don't want to take any more risk. i don't want to have responsibility for this. let's automate it. let's let's make sure that it that it follows a very rigid set of steps and standards so that nobody could question the judgment of whether this was a good decision or a bad decision. it's just the way that that it was set up. so how do you balance that? how do you how do you fight back against some of the things that donald trump is doing? if you believe they're wrong and a lot of democrats believe they are fundamentally wrong without creating just more barriers, more hurdles for progress in the future.

>> yeah, i think we need to have in mind a system where everyone has a voice, but no one has a veto. so that means that when someone says, we're going to build a housing project here, or we're going to build a high speed rail line here, or we're going to build a clean energy transmission line here, we ought to be giving everybody who has some sort of skin in the game an opportunity to express their concerns about it. say, i'd rather that it went here rather than there. all of those things. but at the end of the day, we need some clear point in time where someone who has the public interest in mind weighs all of these tradeoffs and makes a determination. and we need to be supportive of government being able to make that kind of progress. because if people see the government is hopelessly backlogged against itself, they won't support the party of government. >> do you see a democrat right now trying to address this? >> yeah, i think there are a

bunch of democrats who are beginning to talk about this in serious ways. there's a there's an abundance movement that's emerging on in one wing of the party that's acknowledging this. yoni appelbaum at the atlantic has a terrific book out about housing. ezra klein and eric coming out with books. there's a there's a burgeoning movement of thinkers who are talking about this. and i think you're going to see a bunch of, of, of leading democrats begin to pick up this mantle. >> all right. thank you so much for joining us. it's really good to have you. mark dunkleman. i really can't wait to read the book. i appreciate it, and the article is so great. it starts with a well known anecdote about the wollman rink here in new york city, and a certain person who came in and built it. worth a read. thank you very much, mark. coming up next, what the selection of right wing podcast host dan bongino as deputy director means for the fbi. what are they going to be doing at are they going to be doing at the fbi? ♪♪

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don't enter the legal profession and start to pull people out of the doj. what happened yesterday with. president trump and the targeting of him and his attorneys by this piece of human scum, all of these people targeting him in. >> the. >> justice department. that have forfeited any semblance of allegiance and fidelity to the constitutional republic. >> bongino, a former nypd officer and secret service agent, has no experience at the fbi. he's also a former fox news host. joining us now, former assistant director and former deputy general counsel at the fbi, greg bauer. all right. just taking what kash patel has said publicly, what dan bongino has said publicly. what is your understanding of what their what their goals, what their agenda will be at the fbi? >> katie, it's. >> really it's hard to. >> say. because what we've heard for the last few years is a lot of political rhetoric, some of it very effective. and obviously, getting donald trump elected to the presidency once

again. but there's really no substance to it. so exactly what the agenda is, what the goals are remains to be seen. i will say that both of these picks for director and deputy director are very unorthodox. the senior leadership of the fbi traditionally, of course, has been made up of former federal judges, former senior doj officials, very experienced fbi career agents. and this is not that. so it's really hard to predict how this is going to work. but this is something that we've never seen before. and i will tell you this. the reason for what i would call an unorthodox approach doesn't seem to be borne out by the facts. there is no evidence that the doj or fbi is broken, has been corrupted, has been politicized. a lot of people have looked and nobody has found any evidence of any of that. so it begs the question, is this a solution in search of a problem. >> or are they or do they just

want to find something that they can they can say is a problem in order to further a political agenda? we've only heard politics out of their mouths. so is it wrong to assume that what they're going to be doing there is going to be inherently political? >> i have no. >> doubt about it. >> i think if the president himself was on this show right now, he would say that he has the right as president to control everything that doj and the fbi does. and that's exactly how he is to govern in his second term. so i don't think there's any doubt about that. but that's not the way our founders envisioned it. that's not that's not what the reality has been for several decades now in terms of doj and the fbi being independent from white house control, because it's so important that that be the case for our system of justice to work. so i think we're on the verge of something very, very different. i'm looking for members of congress more than we've heard from already to step up and say, now, wait a minute.

this is not the way a system of justice should work. this is not the way our system has worked, but we really haven't seen a whole lot of pushback yet. i think it's going to take a case or two, an example or two before we see congress and the american people really step up and say, this is not what we voted for. >> all right. greg bauer, thank you very much. we'll watch and see what happens next. appreciate your time. we were asking at the top of the show this big question, who is the administrator of doge? we didn't get an answer from the white house number. you know, caroline leavitt said she couldn't say it from the podium. she couldn't announce it from that position. well, the white house has just announced the doge administrator. it's amy gleason, a former us digital service official. she's the acting administrator of the department of government efficiency. that's what that former service has now become. it is not elon musk, according to the white house. all right. now that that is settled, at least for the time being, doge, as you know, is

trying to slash the government's budget. they want to kill off trillions of dollars in order to be able to make this country more successful. jon stewart, our friend over at the daily show on comedy central, you know, he he went through that last night and he offered a slightly different version of what might be more effective. take a look. >> so we're looking to save taxpayers some money. and i know let me think about the studies that are done or oh, how about we just take $3 billion in subsidies we give to oil and gas companies that already turn billions in profits? how long did that take? >> oh, wait. >> how about we just close down the carried interest loophole on hedge funds? that's $1.3 billion a year. oh, how about we stop the $2 trillion we've given to defense contractors to build a fighter jet that blows when everybody knows the next war is

going to be fought with drones and blockchain, whatever that is. holy. i can't believe it. i just saved us billions of dollars in 11 seconds. just call me big balls. right. okay. i'm sorry. i'm being told that that nickname is already taken. >> i'm old enough to remember when donald trump wanted to close that carried interest loophole back during the first administration. never did it. that's going to do it for me today. deadline. white house starts after this quick break. >> oh. >> oh, i. >> hate these things. >> that's one. >> of the great things about consumer cellular. they're 100% us based. customer service is also 100% human. you don't have to. to. >> o booking.com has all kinds of stays. for those who love family resorts... [water spalsh]

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