ears? -nope. comcast business 5-year price lock guarantee. powering five years of savings. powering possibilities. comcast business. still checks and balances. there's a lot being thrown at the american people right now and it is really important to pay attention to it, but it is just as important to recognize how many of those things are getting announced. but they're not happening at all, or at least not yet. just try to remember we are not looking at the final score. we are still in the first quarter. keep your pads on. the game has just begun. >> hi there everyone. welcome to wednesday. it's 4:00 in new york. brand new reporting today

suggests that republicans are indeed feeling the heat for handing over the keys of the government to donald trump and elon musk. nbc news is reporting this about those town halls being held by the gop caucus. quote, party leaders suggest that if lawmakers feel the need to hold such events, they do tele town halls or at least vet attendees to avoid scenes that become viral clips. according to gop sources, the viral nature of video clips spreading from one district to another means a bad confrontation in safe republican territory could influence voters in battlegrounds. they are, of course, talking about viral moments like these. >> elon musk is ignoring. >> a. >> bunch. >> of financial stuff. >> he is in. >> the treasury. >> he is trying to get access to our tax returns. >> are you. >> going to subpoena him at some point? >> when will you stand up to them and say that is enough? >> it's not up to.

>> musk surrendering. to billionaires. >> you coward. my concern right now, and i think i speak. >> for a lot of. >> americans. >> is elon musk. >> yes, yes. >> i take. >> education very seriously. i think i can be transformative. >> i think. >> school lunches. >> why is this being. >> jammed down the pipe so. >> rushed and. >> sloppily so. >> use a scalpel. >> an understanding. >> is when. >> you say you have this many employees that you have to cut. that organization decides who. >> they're going to cut. now, they may. >> go. >> it's clear from all the writings of our founding fathers. >> that our. >> great republic was never meant to be ruled by a dictator. >> nor. >> a king. who. >> why is. >> a. >> supposedly conservative party. >> taking such. >> a radical. >> and extremist and sloppy. >> approach to this?

>> if you're going. to just. >> yell at. >> me, that's not going to be an effective government. >> but we're. yeah, we. >> want to be effective and controlled because if everybody's yelling. >> it's. >> not going to. >> be effective. >> you can talk to us. >> like actual. people instead of like, we're idiots. >> quote. but we're they feel that way. and ruby, ruby, red republican districts all across the country, gop members of congress are being confronted by their own constituents, their own voters, largely over this chaos greenlit by donald trump but very much carried out by elon musk. elon musk right now is about as popular one month into the second trump presidency as trump was at the lowest point of his first, right after the january 6th insurrection, a washington post ipsos poll finds that 34% of respondents approve of how elon musk is doing his job, 49% disapprove, 14 are not sure, just 56% of all republicans approve of elon musk

shutting down any federal program he deems wasteful or unnecessary. in reaction to all of this, the very low poll numbers, the very public backlash to the chaos, often cruel treatment of federal workers and the agencies that help keep the country running, republicans are squirming. politico reports this. quote, elon musk is beginning to wear out his welcome with congressional republicans over in the house, speaker mike johnson on tuesday shrugged off musk's attempt to interfere with his budget plan. over in the senate, north carolina senator thom tillis pointedly suggested that president donald trump's appointee should stand up to the billionaire's whims, including his recent demand that all federal workers justify their employment. a growing number of republican lawmakers urged the tech mogul to show more compassion for the civil servants. he's already cold not helping their attempts at distancing themselves from elon musk. scenes like this one. this

is what the country and the world saw today out of the white house, where musk, wearing a baseball cap, dominated much of donald trump's first cabinet meeting, admitting to some missteps but insisting that cuts have to be made. as we reported on this program yesterday, a lot of the cuts musk and his team of young aides, many of whom have little, if any government experience, have turned out to be either lies or miscalculations or greatly exaggerated. elon musk and the trump administration's agenda threatening to become an albatross around the neck of congressional republicans is where we start today. with me at the table for the whole hour, publisher of the bulwark, host of the focus group podcast, political strategist sarah longwell, democratic strategist and professor at columbia university. msnbc political analyst michael here for the hour as well. also joining us, our friend, former democratic senator. msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill is here. and up

on capitol hill for us, nbc news correspondent melanie zanona. melanie, this is your great reporting. tell us more. >> yeah. >> the debate over doge has really been consuming republicans as they have returned to washington this week, and republicans have been really pleading with party leaders and party officials for some more guidance about how to navigate this blowback, especially after those viral town halls last week. there's a lot of frustration because a they don't feel like they have a lot of information about the cuts. so when they're being asked by constituents about the scope of the cuts or the impacts, they don't know what to say. and b, they're also just frustrated that they don't know how to message on some of this stuff. they want us to be publicly supportive of doge, but they also want protect their constituents. and so in a lot of times, that has gotten them in some sticky situations in these town halls, i'm told that when it comes to these town halls, republicans are now being advised and encouraged to instead hold tele town halls or virtual town halls, or to better. >> vet the participants. >> so it's their constituents and not potentially activists or protesters who are the ones

participating, participating as a way to sort of mitigate those viral scenes and some of those theatrics that can happen when you have those more public settings. but i was talking to one house republican who said the rnc has been very supportive, very helpful in offering some suggestions about how to navigate these town halls. but at the same time, they've not been told not to do the town halls, but at the same time, said a lot of their republican colleagues don't even want to bother doing these town halls anymore because they are spooked. they don't want to be on the hot seat. they don't want to have to answer some of what elon musk is doing, because they don't want to get on elon musk and donald trump's bad side. >> nicole. >> well, claire, i think then they should shut down their town halls and let them call sean hannity. here's what that sounds like. >> one of our. >> tenants just recently. got laid off from the usda. >> and he's a. >> disabled vet. >> multiple deployments. overseas and. >> and yeah, the. >> guy is. without a job now.

and i'm just afraid that. >> you know, stuff. >> like this is going to get out there. >> and i. >> know you got a soft spot for military. >> and. >> police and. >> ems and all those guys. >> and just a little. >> concerning that we don't let these guys. you know, fall off the wagon here. >> and get neglected. >> because they've. done so. >> much. >> for our country. >> i know in. >> the past. >> you've always. >> stood up. >> for the men and women in the. >> rank and file fbi. >> agents. >> and it's because. >> the time they may need your. voice again, especially. the couple thousand, have been seemingly targeted because they worked on the january 6th case. and i know one of the main goals of the fbi administration. >> is to. >> depoliticize it. >> and this appears to be a misstep in the wrong direction. >> it's frustrating. >> all of us because, like. >> how do. >> you. >> make life decisions? try to figure. >> out what to do. >> how do you. >> know to send.

>> your kids. >> to. >> college? if you can afford. >> to. >> buy a. >> house when. >> there is no information coming from the administration, which i support strongly? >> claire mccaskill. the problem with the tactical solutions on the table from melanie's fantastic reporting is that none of them deal with the root cause of trump's own voters anger. they're angry because it's happening to them. they're angry. and what, to me, is so revelatory about this news cycle is that it blows out of the water. the idea that all the information isn't reaching everyone. it is. it just wasn't trustworthy. coming from democrats in the past. these are republican voters calling into sean hannity, complaining about all the things that kamala harris and around this program we warned about for nine years. but because they're happening to them, they finally believe them. and you can shut down all your town halls. you can you sean hannity can say, i can't take any more callers, but their friends have been laid off from the usda, who's a vet who's done so much for the country, might, quote, fall off the wagon and

get neglected if donald trump continues to have his way. and the fbi agents who, quote, did so much for the country, they've been targeted, as these maga voters are describing to sean hannity, who knows? that's exactly what is happening. and i'm not sure if any of these folks are the folks in their homes who go to the grocery store and buy eggs, but wait till they see how much those cost. >> yeah. >> you know, elon musk doesn't know what he doesn't know about trying to downsize the federal government. there's a way that you could go about this in a transparent, methodical and competent way. but the way he's doing it is almost childlike. nicole. it is, you know, that with the chainsaw and, you know, the black baseball cap and the sunglasses and, you know, he thinks this is like laying off a bunch of people on a social media site. these are people from all over the country, and a huge chunk of them are veterans. i mean, veterans make up a big percentage of the federal workforce, and many of them are

doing key jobs that people in communities need. and this is just going to keep getting worse because they're not doing this by job classification. they're not doing it by grade. you know, there's a number of different grades of civil service. one, two and three are generally what we would consider entry level. they're not paying attention to that. you could be someone that they've recruited from the private sector that is incredibly knowledgeable about a subject that is very important in terms of american safety, and they're getting rid of them just because they haven't worked there long enough. so it is really silly the way they've done this and people are upset. but here's one point i want to make. we cannot say musk's name without trump's name, because trump is going to ditch him eventually, and we can't let him do that. he's the one that invited him to the cabinet meeting. he's the president who sat there and let some weirdo in a black baseball cap with children that have mathematical formulas for names dominate his

first cabinet meeting. this is trump's problem, not musk's problem. and we can't let trump off the hook. >> sarah, you have some new focus groups. can i show that? yeah. go. >> there's a lot of babies getting. tossed out. >> with the. >> bathwater, to use an old fashioned phrase. >> in this. >> first few weeks. and of course, as usual. and i'm disappointed about this with president trump because. >> he served before. we're just. >> forfeiting respect internationally, daily. if we had a drinking game where everyone took a drink when the. >> word reversed course, or walking. >> this. back would be. >> drunk in. >> 20 minutes. >> it's chaos. >> up there. >> you know, you can talk a good game. i'm just looking for the come through. i'm looking for, you know, for the person that

many of us voted for or didn't vote. which i'm just waiting to see what happens next. things need time, and i'm very optimistic for change. >> how's all this landing? >> you know, i. >> think what. >> we're starting to see is the. >> very beginning. >> of buyer's remorse setting in. >> and the voters that. >> i was. >> talking to. >> both before the election and after the. >> election that are kind of. >> these. >> we say low. >> information. >> but we. >> just mean people who aren't. >> tapped into politics. >> all. >> the time. >> they voted for donald trump. >> for one. >> very specific reason. they thought things were too expensive. >> and they still. >> think things are too expensive. >> but now what you see. >> is they're like, what. >> is he. >> focusing on? i didn't vote. >> for this. >> dismantling of the government. >> you may see a lot. >> of terminally online people getting really excited about doge. >> but as you can. >> see. >> there's a. >> lot of. >> sort of more marginal. >> voters who. >> are looking. >> at this and. >> saying, well. >> this is chaotic. >> and the other. >> thing is that. >> you know, a lot of those. >> people were. >> doing like, i. heard it from a. >> friend or somebody. >> i knew. >> it's not just.

>> the message. >> that's getting out, it's. >> that people are. experiencing negative. >> personal consequences as a result. >> of this. >> and because what. >> what musk. >> is doing is so. >> vast, right? >> it's. >> going to. >> have a lot of rippling effects across. >> it's not just. >> people who work for the government. >> it's all of the. people who do. >> contract work or some other way. and it is all across the country. >> and so. you know, donald trump, you can see it. >> in. >> the poll numbers. i can hear. >> it in. >> the focus groups, like. >> it's already. >> starting to turn. >> and that is a. >> bad. >> sign for. >> trump because honeymoons, even. >> for him. >> he was getting a. >> pretty. >> muted honeymoon. >> but honeymoon still. >> usually lasts. >> a. >> little bit. >> longer than this. >> i mean, basil, the my experience in politics is that when you lose trust and faith on the economy, it is not just the price of eggs. it's that whether your kids have a job or not, your friend's kids have moved back home into the room. you turned into your gym and your sewing room. it is. it is a contagion of economic anxiety and the fact that trump is doing things that do not promise to make inflation better. you've

got the price of things, things being expensive, plus this deep anxiety. and i dare them to shut down town hall meetings. they're lucky their voters are going to town hall meetings because when they don't go to town hall meetings or call into sean hannity, i mean, that's all friendly fire like we are for you. we are still your voter, you know, help us. help you. what what happens next is political disaffection and worse. >> you know, right. before the election. >> we talked a. >> lot. >> about the. >> project 2025. >> and how. >> this is not five years. >> this is a 180. >> day rapid change in your life. i don't know that any of us would have expected this, this particular circus, but all. >> of it fits into the. >> same pattern that there was intentionality around making. sure that americans saw a show. and initially i said, you know, sometimes, you know, just there's this there's this old adage, those that can't. >> hear must feel. >> and then at some point, even if you don't pay attention to

what we're. >> saying about. >> what's coming. you're going to end up feeling it. i don't wish that on anybody. but the problem is that it is now here. so these members of congress that are saying or the. the guidance that. >> says. >> don't meet your voter. >> in person. >> do them via zoom. >> how cowardly. >> is that? >> yeah. and when i say or worse, i mean, or worse, they become open to democrats. right. and i and i know, i know that takes years, right? that's not because i went out and interviewed trump voters in the first term and all the chaos, and they were with him through a lot of chaos. but this feels like intentional pain and suffering. >> yeah. i mean, here's. >> the thing, though. >> if you if. >> the maga voters, the ones that are definitely. >> with him, are. >> sort of yelping in pain. at the moment, then there's this. >> whole other cohort. >> of voters, and these are the people i think about. >> all the time. they're not. >> maga voters. >> they just voted. >> for. >> trump because. >> they were. >> mad about the economy. >> yeah. >> that's a lot of people. >> and so those are the people that. >> are easy swings. >> back when they say, not. >> only.

>> is this guy. >> not. >> focusing on what i thought he was going. >> to focus on, things are. >> now actually. >> getting worse because of tariffs or whatever. >> but i. love that their response. >> is like, well, you don't have covid if you don't test or something. it's like your. >> voters. >> aren't mad if you don't listen to them. that's great. that's a great. >> strategy because they'll go somewhere else. i mean, melanie, i wonder how the edict to simply not face your voters went over. i mean, did did people say, well, i'm not going to do that. i've done that every, you know, every month for a gazillion years. >> yeah. there are certainly some republican members, especially some who have been around here forever, who aren't going to take that advice and have no problem going face to face with their constituents. i mean, this is important because these are constituents who elected them to come to congress. they're the people who will be responsible for electing them again. and so these republicans want to have face time with their constituents. but there are other members, particularly maybe in some of these more vulnerable districts, maybe some of the newer members who don't know how to handle it, who just were a little bit spooked by what they saw. and that's why they were pleading with the leadership for just

some guidance about how to navigate this. and just in general, they feel like they've gotten really no information from the trump administration about these cuts. they have not been consulted. they've been largely in the dark. and that has put them in a really bad spot, because when they are asked questions, they just don't have the answers to them. >> melanie zanona, it's a really important line of reporting. we'll continue to turn to you for your great reporting on this. thank you for joining us today. everyone else sticks around. still ahead for us rising to the moment one governor is squaring up with donald trump, not just in word, but in deed. plus pay to stay. donald trump continuing to pitch a so-called gold card for wealthy foreigners and oligarchs to come to america while making it nearly impossible to help children already here alone in our country. and later in the broadcast, the anti-vaccine activist and advocate who is now the health and human services secretary today downplaying the first reported death from the

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t-priority. built for tomorrow's emergencies. ready today. (♪♪) >> to some of the biggest names in. >> democratic politics, with the biggest ideas for how democrats. >> can win again. >> the blueprint with jen psaki. listen now. >> what we do is try to. cut right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington that day. >> i'm concerned. i'm concerned that maybe we're moving a little bit too fast. the president is. >> obviously very aggressive. >> so that's his. comfort level. most of us don't have the insight or the information to really know how much of an impact it's going to have. and so that's why i'd rather see is a little bit just take a deep breath, move a little bit slower and a little bit more deliberately. and that's that's kind of generally the feeling for a lot of people. >> so, so i'm old enough to

remember the fights over earmarks. and republicans were against earmarks. but always i mean, they would lay their bodies on the tracks for their earmark. and this thing about cuts feels like the same kind of debate where they're there for us. nobody. i didn't see a single statement when musk carried the chainsaw out to the stage at cpac. no republicans complained. but now that their voters are, you know, angry voters are like water. i mean, they they will go somewhere so you can shut down your town halls. hannity can stop taking calls. you can do whatever you want. but if you're, as they said to their member about the price of things, about the chaos from washington and about the indifference and incompetence, those feel like political labels that stick. >> yeah. >> i mean. >> the thing that i've. watched that. >> i think i didn't. appreciate until trump came along was. how much indignity. >> a an elected. >> official will. endure to keep their job right, because they'll. >> basically go. >> along with anything trump does as long. >> as they get reelected. but right. >> now. >> what you're watching is a. >> bunch. >> of people. >> especially if they're. >> in districts. >> that. >> they only.

>> won by a few points. >> and if people are showing up. >> yelling. >> they are mad. and this thing about. >> musk is like, so if. if you went and did. >> the. >> budget by regular order. >> and they had to. >> vote on these things, right, these congress people had to vote on them, they wouldn't vote for these cuts because. >> they're wildly. >> unpopular, which. >> is why. >> they have musk. doing it. and now that it's and so. >> at. >> first they were like, this is great. somebody else can take the political heat. he'll be our heat shield. but now. >> it is invariably. >> going to come back. >> to. >> affect their constituents. and then the buck stops with them. >> claire, what is your sense of, of sort of how quickly this boil has consumed these very safe republicans? what happens next? >> well, i think what you're going to see happen next is the discussion we've had has basically boiled down to saying they're not focusing on the things that people care about most, which is how expensive everything is. now, what you're going to see is, and this is where musk getting involved with johnson in this budget bill. we've got a real train wreck coming nicole. i mean, they are

going to they're not going to they're not going to pass a tax cut on tips or overtime or social security. they're going to take care of the big guys. they're going to take care of the millionaires and billionaires and the to do it. they're going to have to cut rural people on medicaid, children's health care. they're going to have to make rural hospitals go out of business. they're going to have to do something with food stamps. they're going to hurt the very voters. that, frankly, is the strongest part of donald trump's base. the people who make less than $50,000 a year. i mean, he won the bottom third of our country in terms of economic wealth. that's the first republican that's won poor people in this country in since 1960. and he is they're going to do something that's really going to hurt them. you pile on the fact that can't get anybody to answer the phone at irs, they can't get through to social security. they're afraid to get on an airplane. their child gets

measles. it, i would say six months to a year from now, the midterms are are going to be a pretty good time for the democrats. >> you know, i remember feeling self-conscious when i fixated on the war between bannon and musk. and it is a battle that, at least from the outside, musk clearly won. musk has on a baseball hat at a cabinet meeting and talked more than his co-president. donald trump. fight was waged, at least again publicly. musk won. there seems to be, i mean, the price that trump may pay for siding with this person over bannon. maybe what claire just articulated. >> yeah. and you. were saying. >> you know, there was a point where republicans said. >> well, that's just. >> that's just elon musk. you know, we're not doing this. that's that's him. and i think claire's point don't disassociate musk from trump. and i think that is part of the democratic strategy. >> look. >> if you've got both of them, did you vote for both of them.

and they can hear that in the town halls. you can hear that in the members of congress saying, look, we voted for something, but not this. and i, i do think at some point the democrats will have they have their talking points together. i think we're getting there. and one of the things that i love, just to flip this a little bit, paul tonko, if you haven't seen that video. >> we played that. incredible. yeah. >> that to me is everything that we need to know about how to move forward when that man stands up and said, i saw you standing next to, next to next to aunt maxine, auntie maxine, and i saw you there fighting for us because the way forward to me. >> and he says, importantly, i will be there with. >> you and i'll be there with you. and i think to your point, it's, it's a, it's a we're at a place now where you have an unelected person with a chainsaw going and cutting thousands and thousands and thousands of jobs with. seemingly no rationale for it. and prices are.

>> still high. >> and, you know, we've. >> been asking. >> voters and focus groups what they think about. >> elon musk, trump voters. >> and it's funny because some of them are like, yeah, he's cool. i like what he. >> did with tesla. i like that he wants to go to mars or whatever. but there's this other. part where they're like, who is this guy? and he has a cartoon villain billionaire. like, people. >> have that archetype. >> deep in them, like. they recognize it and they're. >> like. >> why does. >> he why does he have access. >> to all of my information? and we know and this is, i think, something we got to talk about more. he's trying to get people's information. this is about him. it's about him being a billionaire. it's about him getting. >> access to wide swaths of information for his own ai tools. he is not there to. >> help people. >> well. >> i'm sorry, because he's not selling us a product like his cars. we are the product he is trying to. he is trying to commodify all of us in some very sort of evil mind way. and that's the thing that we have to constantly get. why should this man have access to all of this information? we have no idea. >> what. >> he's going to. why do why do

trump voters think that elon musk has access to all of our banking information and personal information and social security information? >> so it almost was. >> split in half. >> where. >> half the people were. >> kind of for it. well. >> we need to cut government. but then there was this other half who was just like, he's super rich. why does. >> he care? >> why is he doing this? and it's more. >> questions than certainty. they just know that it feels wrong that a maga billionaire and somebody, they are aware that he gave trump lots of money. >> for his campaign. and so the whole thing feels a little. >> fishy to them. >> and i can't stress enough. >> how much. >> five weeks has only gone by. and so for people to already go from. >> no. >> i. >> was into this to. >> i don't think. >> maybe i'm into this is a pretty. >> big switch. >> yeah. i mean, claire, i went back and looked at where we were. so five weeks in the first time flynn had been fired for lying to the fbi about his call with russian ambassador kislyak, there had been lots of sort of national security norms shattered. i think comey had been fired as well, but people weren't feeling that right.

covid is years away. they weren't they weren't feeling the mismanagement. and i and i take your point about what musk is doing is at trump's direction. i think that's right. but i, i think what's extraordinary about this go round is that trump has greenlit damage to the american people in a way that that, you know, again, he at least seemed to try to, in his own mind, obsessively shield his people from harm the first time around. >> yeah. and you know what's going to happen when elon musk goes into atf and wants everybody's gun information? you know, we've got people in my state that fought real id because they didn't want the government to have a real id on them. and now these same people are supporting a president who's letting this private citizen, richest man in the world get all of their personal information. and frankly, the other thing about this, nicole, that we got

to talk about is the lack of transparency here. the only way people are hearing about what he's doing is on his privately held company. the head of advertising, the head of xe, actually threatened advertisers. a few weeks ago, the wall street journal covered it. she said, the advertisers, you know, you better get on board or else. so you've got this guy leveraging a private business that he was way underwater with. now, the only way we can find out about how the government is taking our private information and firing people that impact our lives is through his private company. how is that done in america and how can voters approve of that? i just think we need to spend more time on how they're doing this in the dark, except what elon wants to put out on his company's websites. >> are people understanding this as not just big government, but massive corporate, big government? >> not really. i mean.

>> the thing. >> about voters. >> and the way that they approach. >> this, as i've listened to a lot of them sort. >> of take a we're going. >> to give it some time. >> we haven't. seen we're not sure yet how to feel about it. and they. >> still sort of. murmur some optimism. because people are not quick to say, well, i. voted for donald trump and now i completely change. >> my mind. right. >> they're just they don't admit. >> that they're. >> wrong that fast. >> and so there's. >> a lot of people saying like, well, i'm going to give it a little bit of time. >> but you. >> can already. >> hear them. >> say. >> but. >> i don't. like how. chaotic it is. i don't like. and what's funny about musk, right. they do this. thing where they're like, you can't trust the government. >> you are. >> the government now, ellen. and so the voters are. >> going to. >> get that. they are going to come around to that pretty quickly. >> where. >> you can't be the opposition all the time. >> no, man, this. >> is you. this is on you. and voters will see that. they'll be like, you're the one in charge. >> yeah. clara, thank you so much for joining us and starting us off today. ahead for us. the nation's democratic governors haven't stopped in their

pushback against the authoritarian overreach of the new trump administration these past five weeks. and that includes our next guest, who has done more by calling out the threat and not just trump, but of the policies his white house has already sought to implement. illinois governor jb pritzker is our next guest. >> here. >> sadly. windshield chips. >> can turn. >> into windshield cracks. >> but at. >> least. >> you can go to safelite. com and schedule a fix in minutes. sweet safelite can come to you for. >> free. >> and our. highly trained techs can replace your windshield right at your home. >> they flight safe. flight don't wait. >> go to safe flight.com. >> and schedule. >> now. >> safelite repair. >> safelite replace. >> i told you i. >> don't need these anymore. >> i have. >> sling, >> okay.

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>> to not retreat. >> this is a. >> moment to make your. >> voices heard. >> some extreme members of the michigan legislature are asking the u.s. supreme court. to overturn. >> marriage equality. >> here's my. >> response to that. hell, no. >> i'm here. >> to say york. >> hasn't labored. >> under a. >> king in over 250 years. >> we are not. >> we sure. >> as. >> hell are not going to. >> start now. >> my oath is to the. >> constitution of our. >> state and of. >> our country. >> we don't. >> have. >> kings in. >> america, and i don't intend to bend the knee to one. >> tyranny requires. >> your fear and your silence and your compliance. >> democracy requires. >> your courage. >> they are right now and will continue to be some of the most essential and trusted voices of dissent and opposition in this brand new era. governors, democratic governors in statehouses all across the country. it will be up to them,

largely, and others, to continue to give voice to the american people who see something profoundly wrong with what is happening, not just in these first few weeks, but most likely over the next four years. it's a privilege to bring in democratic governor j.b. pritzker of illinois. thank you so much for being here. >> hi, nicole. >> we played a whole bunch of your state of the state address. i want to play one more piece of sound before we jump into this. >> if you think i'm overreacting. >> and sounding the. alarm too soon, consider this. >> it took. >> the. >> nazis one. >> month, three weeks. >> two days, eight. >> hours. >> and 40. >> minutes. >> to dismantle. >> a constitutional republic. >> and all. >> i'm. >> saying is. >> that when the. >> five alarm. >> fire starts to burn, every good. >> person better. >> be ready to. >> man a post. >> with. >> a. bucket of water. >> if you want. >> to stop it from raging. >> out of control. >> yours is an assessment i've heard from former senior national security officials, but only privately, and you're the

only one to say it publicly. say more about your decision to do that. >> well, i should start by. >> saying that my family escaped. >> the pogroms. >> in ukraine in the 1880s. and it was when the russians were coming to. >> kill jews. >> and this country. >> the united states. >> provided us with. >> the security. >> safety opportunity to. >> well, just. >> to live. >> and of course. >> i. >> should point out that it was. >> a public school that gave. my great grandfather. >> an education. >> and a public service, a. >> public health agency that gave them a place. to live. and so. >> i am very grateful. >> to. >> be an. american and believe. >> very much in. >> protecting all the rights of american, the american people. i also. >> built a holocaust museum with holocaust. >> survivors here. >> and i. >> can tell you. >> that in. >> 1933 and 1934.

>> the german constitutional republic was converted. >> into a dictatorship in a very short. >> period of time. and you know, anybody who walks. >> through. >> a holocaust museum and sees the. >> chronology can. >> see that. >> when rights get. >> taken away, when you know people. >> the services to. >> people are diminished. when all of. >> a sudden we're favoring one group. >> of people over another. >> that's a. >> danger that. >> we ought to all pay. >> attention to. i'm seeing. >> that in. >> this country right now. and i needed to. >> speak up. i needed. >> people to. >> hear that. and i think that, you know, we're seeing. gradually an understanding. >> that we've. >> got to speak up. people need to show. >> up and. >> speak out. >> what is it like to be a democratic leader in a moment where the people, the only people standing up for the rule of law in terms of elected officials and the constitution and rights, basically equal rights are democratic leaders.

>> yeah. >> you know, i'm concerned. people need to speak up now. it's not later. there needs. >> to be a wake. >> up call. and i. >> do see you played. >> some. >> of the. >> video and clips from other governors. >> but it's the people. >> that. >> they represent. >> that. are speaking out, showing up at town. hall meetings that are going to. make the biggest difference. meanwhile, you need to see democratic leadership on this subject. >> and by the way. >> republican leadership, there are plenty of republicans out. there that do not agree. with what's. going on in washington, dc. now, the elected representatives in washington, who are republicans, are apparently too afraid to say in public what they say in private. they know that donald trump is off in. >> the wrong direction. >> they're just afraid. they're afraid to lose their elections. democrats shouldn't be afraid. we've got to speak up right now. >> can democrats protect the rule of law in america by themselves?

>> you know, it's going to. >> take the judges. >> who are hearing these cases in court. it's going to take democrats taking those cases to court. it's going to take average folks out there showing up and protesting. remember what's happening. and you've been talking about this on the program. what's happening to the federal agencies. now, that's not necessarily a matter of. >> rights as. >> we would refer to them. but, you know, when you lose the ability to. see the person, you know, when you're a veteran, to see the therapist that you've seen for. >> the. >> entire time you've you've been under therapy as a result of the, you know, the fact that you've served in a war and just need a little bit of help. when you lose that, when you lose, as is happening in my state. we're losing our. meat and poultry inspectors. remember, if you are in the meat and poultry industry, you're trying to sell your goods. you can't. >> sell them. >> if nobody's inspecting them. and by the way, when you go to

the grocery store and your prices go up because the supply chain is broken, or when there's contaminated meat or poultry on the shelves because we don't have any more inspectors. those are the rights. those are the things that people expect to. see and they're not seeing them. and again, we've got to do so much more to speak up and let everybody know across the country that what elon musk and donald trump are doing is wrong for them, bad for working class and working families across the united states and bad for the most vulnerable people. >> i like to always stipulate that it is not the democratic party's fault that we are here. but my old party has collapsed onto itself. you have former doctors like senator cassidy voting for rfk jr. you have former prosecutors voting for folks who are not coy about their disdain for the rule of law. so i just want to put that out as pretext. but i, i went

back and i watched your speech and a bunch of other addresses from the democratic convention, including adam kinzinger and all of the things that that you and republicans warned would come to pass have come to pass. why do you think those warnings didn't sink in in the time frame of an election? >> you know. >> you got to remember that the things that i'm speaking out about now about, you know, the threat to our democracy, this is not a message to win elections on. it's something people need to know. they need to know that that's happening. but, you know, if you talk to 100 people, knock on 100 doors and have knocked on an awful lot of doors running for office, and you say to people, you know, democracy is at risk. nobody knows what that looks like. they've never experienced it before. and the reality is, what people need to hear about is what the effects of that are. the prices at the grocery store are going up because democracy is being taken

away. the impact on you in terms of your health care, 770,000 people in illinois will lose health care as a result of what donald trump and elon musk and the republican congress are doing right now. it's a danger to your way of life. and that's what people need to understand. it's all about affordability. it's all about how you can, you know, make it just a little bit easier for people every single day to live their lives. and they're taking that away from you. that is what it's like to have democracy taken away. so those are, you know, we need to bifurcate between educating people about democracy being taken away and talking to people about what the message ought to be, about why they need to vote for democrats. >> so interesting. i mean, you're right, that is that is sort of the linkage that that was maybe missing. and frankly, it's on it's on the media as well. i wonder if you have any insights about what your constituents are going through that could inform the debates in

washington or the coverage on shows like this? >> well, you know, i went to visit a head start program in the suburbs here of suburbs of chicago, and they had to lay a few people off as a result of the uncertainty of whether they would see the support from the federal government that they've always received. and when they had to lay people off, that means fewer kids can be in their program. and when fewer kids are in the program, that means there are parents who can't go to work because their child can't go to that program. now, there i mean, there are layoffs that are occurring and they're devastating layoffs to government workers. but what about the layoffs that are affecting average folks out there that don't work for the government because they can't get childcare, because they can't get the services that they need? this is it's devastating to families across illinois and across america. and slowly, slowly but surely, i think people are waking up to see it. but all of us, especially in

leadership, need to stand up and speak out. and, you know, put the red blinking lights, you know, red alert like on star trek, we are under attack. we, all of us across the united states, everybody is under attack because they want to take services away. you know why? to provide a massive tax cut for the wealthiest and most powerful people in this country. that just seems wrong. and everybody needs to understand it in order to make sure that they're, you know, that they get the impetus to get up, get out there, show up at your town hall meeting, call (202) 224-3121. that's the number for the capitol. and ask to speak with your congressman's office or your senator's office and tell them, you know, don't take my services away. don't take away meals on wheels. don't take away medicaid. >> governor j.b. pritzker, to be continued. thank you very much for joining our show. >> thanks, nicole. >> we're going to sneak in a

quick break. we'll be back with basil and sarah on the other side. >> it's president trump's first 100 days, and rachel maddow and alex wagner will be bringing. clarity to the policies. being implemented. alex will be in. >> the field. >> reporting from. >> the. >> front lines. >> what issue. >> matters to you the most? >> and rachel. >> will be hosting five nights a week. >> important stories are going to be told through field work and frontline reporting about the consequences of government action. >> alex wagner, reporting from across the country and the rachel maddow show weeknights at nine on msnbc. in and doug, you'll be back. >> emus can help. people customize. >> and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. you're just. >> a flightless bird. you know he's a dreamer, frank. >> and doug. well, i'll be. >> that bird really.

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call the number on your screen or go online to donate monthly. when you give by credit card. we'll send you this exclusive t-shirt to show you are a champion for change, fighting for social justice and all of our rights. together, let's fight for community and opportunity and the chance to thrive. because the naacp® can't do any of this important work without one important person, you. so please call or go online to keepadvancing.org today. >> okay. >> so i. >> bet. >> there's a lot. >> of issues. >> that i disagree with. >> governor pritzker. >> on. >> but i. got to say. right now, the silence of so many. >> democrats has been. >> very alarming as we see. >> everything that's happening. and you're sort of desperate for somebody to get out there and start. saying something and leading the charge. >> and it is really. gratifying to see. him do it.

>> and partly what i would love. >> to see out of more of these governors. >> and. >> senators is like the. >> you know. >> what i always was. >> annoying to me was the idea. >> of like. >> why are we running a presidential? why are we talking about. >> the 2028 nominee? >> who wants. >> to do that right now? we just got started. >> but right. >> now, what i want to talk about is the 2028 nominee. >> for. >> the democratic. >> party, because they are desperate for some leadership and the ambition to do that, i think, can propel some people into the space of saying, all right, i'm going to start taking. >> these guys on. >> and when they. >> do that. >> they break through this layer of. fear that is causing. everybody to be. >> so silent. >> and so that's what is. gratifying about. >> about that. >> i mean, it's also just the projection of strength in the context of protecting people, which is where politics is always waged. right? it's who will be the best protector. and trump is making clear what the american people are going to need to be protected from in four years. he is installing an oligarchy. >> yeah, i don't. i do disagree. >> i actually. >> do think the democrats are

doing are doing a lot. i agree with the point that, you know, and i live by this. they are what they see, right. so what do we want to see? we want to see people fighting for us. that's why that video is really important. should we be seeing more of that? absolutely. i also like what governor whitmer was doing, going just straight to camera and saying, this is what i think we need to be seeing more of that, too. >> i do think. >> a lot of that is happening by what i've also said is we were saying before, a lot of the solution is not going to come from d.c. governor. fantastic. great message, great messenger. we need more people like him. and we have that. democrats do have that kind of wide bench. but i also think this other side of the equation is very real, which is that a lot of folks don't trust us, don't trust what they see in dc. so when james carville says we just. >> democrats or anyone. >> i think everybody yeah, i think everybody. so democrats have to do a do a good job of doing two things. one, talking about the republicans, but also making sure that people regain trust in them. and i think

what's going to happen is this ground up campaign of sorts, if you're particularly in some place like new york, you've got a lot of people whose families are being impacted by immigration. why don't we have a cadre of lawyers on hand ready to fight that which we do? we there are going to be young people who are going to be housing insecure and food insecure, especially if their family member gets kicked out of the. >> federal. >> government and can't pay their bills right now. can democrats find a way to bring community together to support them? yes. why? because we've done that before. the panthers did it. the young lords did it. there's a long history of social justice within the party. and in many ways, i think what's going to have to happen in the short term is that folks are going to have to rally around each other in community. that, i think, is what you're seeing now. yes, there is a sort of dc component to it, but i think a lot of it is folks rallying around each other in community because everybody's trying to get answers as to how do we move

forward. but once that bus gets rolling, i do think you'll start to see the steamroller effect. >> but i guess what i what i would come back to is, the only reason you have to protect all those people is because of donald trump. and what is missing in the democratic party, save for governor pritzker and chris murphy and aoc and a very small handful of others, is the reason that stuff that democrats are very good at has to happen at all, is because trump's assault is on the american people by virtue of taking a sledgehammer to the federal government. >> i'm sorry, people need champions in moments like this. they need people to follow. and if you. >> say, well. you know, people are doing. >> things, i just. >> it is it. >> commensurate with the threat we're currently facing? is the question that i would ask. and i would argue, no, that that one of the. reasons that pritzker's. >> comments stand out. is because. >> there haven't. >> been a. >> lot of. >> other people making similar ones. >> i but and maybe it's just i've heard it, i have heard it. and the truth is i've been hearing it for years. we talked about this in 2016. we had two.

remember the man was impeached twice. you had attorneys general taking him to court. you had an attorney general, sorry, a district attorney in manhattan that got him on 34 felony counts. so there is a long list of democrats who are actually doing the thing that they're supposed to be doing a good chunk of the country. and this kind of goes to your point. a good chunk of the country just decided to not care. they negotiated what they saw with themselves to say, i can live with this. and now we're recognizing that they can't. and so yes, this is an opportunity. i absolutely agree for democrats to step in and say, look at, look at what you got, because we know you didn't vote for it. but part of the challenge has also been that there's so many voters that just are not trusting the establishment right now. >> and i guess i would argue that a politician's job is to make them care. >> yeah. >> that's true. your job is to is. >> to get. >> to these people and say. >> and that's. >> why look, screaming and

yelling about what. donald trump is doing is a big part of this. it's part of saying, this is wrong. this is bad for a variety of reasons. >> here, the personal consequences. >> and then you've got to show them the alternative. yeah. >> and i think just importantly, moving to 2028 isn't about horse race politics. no, it's about nodding to all the damage he's doing and already thinking about putting putting their basic things about the rule of law that have been broken as long as he's there. basic things about the justice department, that email, they got into a fight with the federalist society. prosecutors about that are now broken. as long as he's there. i mean, it is already a window to talk about who puts those things back together. that's right. >> people will cover. >> horse race politics. >> and so one of the best ways to start talking about what people want to do, their vision for moving forward, and all of the damage donald trump is doing is to focus people on the political side. >> of it. yeah. it's so great to have you at the table. it's always great to have you here. thank you both. up next for us, donald trump's latest bid to help only those who can afford a $5 million entry fee into the

us. we'll tell you about it next. >> you are not his. there's never been a moment you were forgotten. you are not hopeless. though you have been broken. your innocence stolen. i hear your soul. >> your soul. >> i will send out an army to find. >> you in the middle. >> of the dark. >> night. it's true. >> i will rescue you. >> on streets across. >> america, young people. are homeless, abused. >> in danger.

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>> a month. >> call 1-833-735-4495 or visit homeserve.com. >> donald trump is defending the mass firings of federal watchdogs. >> our federal government now can discriminate against the citizens of the country. >> we are all watching. >> and waiting. >> to see who is going. >> to hold the line. >> don't miss the weekends, saturday, and sunday mornings at 8:00. >> on msnbc. >> what we do. >> is try to cut right. >> to the bone of what we're seeing in washington. >> that day. >> we're going. >> to be selling a gold card. you have a green card. this is a gold card. we're going to be putting a price on that card of about $5 million. and that's going to give you green card privileges. plus it's going to be a route to citizenship. and wealthy people will be coming into our country by buying this card. they will be wealthy and they'll be successful, and they'll be spending a lot of money and paying a lot of taxes and employing a lot of people. and we think it's going to be extremely successful.

>> imagine that on the statue of liberty quote. they'll be wealthy. hi again everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. donald trump wants to open our doors and our borders, but only to the ultra wealthy, who can afford a $5 million gold card. by announcing gold cards, a new way for foreigners to gain entry into the united states, donald trump touted this brand new path to citizenship and said it would bring trillions of dollars into the country for whom he didn't explain. but as you just heard, the cost of a gold card will be $5 million, meaning we would be opening our arms and our doors only to foreigners who have $5 million people, have a particularly high economic status. here's what trump said when asked about who could fall into that category. >> would a russian oligarch. >> be eligible. >> for a gold card? >> yeah, possibly. hey, i know some russian oligarchs that are very nice people. it's possible.

>> yeah. send us your oligarchs. russia. gold cards would replace an existing eb five program. and trump said they begin in two weeks. save up. meanwhile, the administration is simultaneously elevating being an undocumented, undocumented immigrant in this country to a criminal offense. it's always been a civil offense. wall street journal has new reporting on that. quote. the trump administration created a registry for immigrants in the us illegally to submit their personal information or face fines and prison time. that's according to documents, including a draft regulation seen by the wall street journal. immigrants in the country illegally, including children 14 and older, would be required to submit fingerprints and home addresses to the registry. documents show immigrants who qualify but fail to register could be fined up to $5,000 and sentenced to up to six months in prison. nbc news is reporting that the administration is

planning a nationwide operation to locate and potentially deport children who came into the united states without a parent or legal guardian. so as we look back on years of trump's immigration views, he is okay with all oligarchs coming to the country as long as they pass his standard of wealth and race. but those in search of a better life, even children coming from places he famously called bleep hole countries. no thank you wealthy russian oligarchs. come on in. children and families fleeing persecution or seeking asylum. no thank you. not welcome. it's where we start the hour. some of our favorite experts and friends. noreen shah joins us. she's the deputy director of government affairs and equality division at the aclu. with me at the table for the hour, former undersecretary of state for public diplomacy and public affairs during the obama administration, rick stengel here and the host of the fast politics podcast and special correspondent for vanity

fair, molly jong-fast, is here. i'm tempted to start with the oligarch card, but i am going to try to keep my eye on the real news here. the real people who will be hurt by this. noreen, talk about this. this seems like a vehicle to potentially jail and elevate the pretext for the kinds of deportations to gitmo in panama that we see them pretty enthusiastic about. >> yeah. and, you know. >> donald trump campaigned on a pledge to do mass deportations. he said he wanted to deport 20 million people. and the way they want to do that is by scaring people. they want people to be looking over their shoulders. that's their policy of chaos and cruelty and waste. and they they want the grandmother who's running out to the store to pick up milk for her grandkids, to be worried that if she steps outside and she hasn't signed up for the registry and she doesn't have her papers, a local police officer may pick her up and hold

her for criminal prosecution in jail time. he says he wants to go after the criminals. he's going after millions of people, including kids as young as 14. we don't know what's going to happen to them when they go in to fingerprint. we don't know what kinds of questions they're going to be asked, if they will be asked to rat out on their parents. it is heading toward a police state and it's grave. >> noreen. interestingly, he does not have public support for that. i mean, new york times polling on deporting people who were in this country illegally who have committed violent crimes that polls upward of 80%. but doing what he's talking about here, ending protections for deportation for immigrants who were children when they entered the us. a super majority opposes that 62%. >> yeah, absolutely. >> and what's at stake here is a case, like a child who came in at three years old, they turn 14. now they've got a register and show up at ice and be put

into immigration detention, or they don't register and they have to worry about. whether they can go to school or go to the hospital when they're. >> sick. >> or if they need to run away every time they see a police officer. now, that not only is cruel, it's chaotic, it's unwise, and it's a waste of government resources when the government should be focused on public safety, when we want local law enforcement to be focused on how to make our communities safer. instead, they're going to be focused on unfortunately, we're really worried they'll be focused on donald trump's immigration agenda, which extends to millions of people. >> noreen, do you have any insight into what's behind the numbers? this is from reuters. us president donald trump deported 37,660 people during his first month in office. previously unpublished us department of homeland security data shows, far less than the monthly average of 57,000 removals and returns in the last full year of joe biden's administration. why? when this is their top priority, do they seem to be coming in with

numbers lower than president biden? and surely president obama? >> i mean, this exposes the. >> not only the chaos, but also the ineptitude of the trump administration's immigration policy. the reason why those numbers are lower is because they're going after people in high profile operations with ride alongs, with camo gear. administration officials, and focusing on the optics instead of focusing on actual public safety needs. and so they're wasting their. resources on these high profile terrorizing raids. they're threatening to go into work sites, places where people are just trying to do their jobs or buy some fish at a fish market. that's not a good use of immigration resources, even from an ice perspective, let alone from a civil liberties one. >> rick stengel i believe the ride along was doctor phil and the cameo. i've seen the one who

shot her puppy in the face wearing what's her name, kristi noem. that is indeed the performative aspect of it. but in terms of, again, i don't do this often, but their metric is the numbers, and the numbers are well below biden's. >> and some of it just. >> could be because. >> the trump effect, where fewer people are. crossing over. >> but in fact. >> you know, there were a. >> record number of immigrants that. >> came under under biden. >> and then. >> the. >> last year it was it was. >> to a lower level than it ever been during trump. >> the thing that i. >> want to talk. >> about, and you probably want to talk about it. >> later. >> is the eb five. >> talk about it whenever you want around here. >> so and this is we've done a terrible. >> job of. >> explaining what. >> legislation is. >> so this. >> gold card. >> is it's maybe the greatest scam. >> for laundering money that's ever been in human. >> history. selling the highest. >> office in a democracy, which is. >> citizenship, as the justice. >> said. >> for this price. >> but the eb five.

>> program shows. >> how how legislation. >> can work. >> which is. >> yes, the people with wealth. >> we want them to come to america, but. >> we. >> don't want to. just have them buy citizenship. so you give between 500,000. >> and. >> $1 million to start a business. >> in. >> an area. where where there's low income, where there's not. >> enough businesses and not enough housing, and you employ. >> ten people in. >> that business. >> like. >> wow, isn't that smart? >> what legislators do. >> that. >> is that. >> is the best example of how legislation works. >> and this is the. >> the worst example of how legislation works. >> but there are also other countries that have these visas. i mean, it's a it's there's a reason why trump thinks it's such a good idea. people do it in ireland. had it for a long time, a program where if you put a certain number of dollars in an irish bank account or you invest it in the economy, i mean, these are things that actually exist. and what's funny is we see this a lot where they're like rediscovering legislation or they're like, you know, what about if we do this and it's like, well, that actually already exists, but a little bit better. and i think,

you know, that they're learning how the government works in real time. >> well, it is his second term. so i guess better late than never. i guess the difference is the program exists to bring people here to employ americans for uniquely american product or experience. it doesn't exist for russian oligarchs, which is what he was talking about in the oval office. >> i mean, there's not you can do both. right. and it's. >> and it's. fine to. >> do both, but but. >> actually. >> if you actually create. >> a program. >> that benefits americans. >> and it's not just. about people benefiting. >> their their bank account, that is a much better thing to do. >> and the and the. >> problem the other where we started is. >> so many of these things. >> there are precedents for them. right. but for example. they are criminalizing something that once had. >> a civil penalty. >> right. like the. >> legislation. >> it's a civil penalty if. >> you don't register. >> the registry started in 1940. >> but criminalizing. >> that is. >> actually cruel and chaotic. >> well, and i think it's tied

to the other piece of information that we shared, that their deportation numbers are lagging by. and right now. i mean, scooping up criminals is what has the support of a majority of americans. everything else they're talking about doing does not have plurality support in this country. >> a lot of this stuff is not popular. and that's why you're seeing these republicans going to these town halls and having their constituents be really mad at them, because it's not popular. $880 billion cut to medicaid over ten years that that's not popular. and i think that we're going to see more and more of that. and instead of these republicans saying, well, maybe we should look at this legislation, they're like, maybe we should look at these town halls. >> noreen, i want to come back to what's happening in this country with sort of a wider lens of history. i work for george w bush, who tried to create a pathway to citizenship. he had some powerful allies in the senate, in john mccain and ted kennedy who agreed with

them. but republicans to his right shut those efforts down. president obama in the next term had some powerful allies in the senate, in marco rubio and his own party. republicans shut that down. the consequence of trump's proposals are horrific for the economy. this thing that ostensibly republicans ran on, where is sort of the campaign to, you know, to educate republicans about the damage of going along with mass deportations for people who have not committed crimes but are simply trying to make a life here. >> no. republicans have long been a part of the push for comprehensive immigration reform, which includes a path to citizenship, an earned path to citizenship for millions and millions of people who are are caregivers for the for our kids and for the elderly, people who work in nursing homes, people who work in our hospitals, people who are farmers and work

in our factories. so the american business community has long been weighing in with house republicans and senate republicans. they well know what the stakes are. and on capitol hill, people will tell you, we need immigration reform. everybody across the aisle agrees. we have a broken immigration system, a gold visa card for the ultra rich does nothing to fix this broken immigration system and driving people into the shadows by threatening them that if they don't register, they will be treated as criminals. they will be thrown into jail. does nothing to fix our immigration system, and it threatens to really turn our backs on this idea of we can be an america that is a nation of immigrants, that honors hard work, and that provides opportunities to people to come forward and become a great part of our community, of our citizenry. >> you know what's amazing and what lays over all the trump stories so far is, is the opportunity to grift this. you

know, the kinds of people that are in this country may have come illegally, may have come as children, but who are making their life here, who are going to school, who are part of communities, who are part of businesses. they want those people out, right. that is explicit in requiring them to come and register. but here's here's what bloomberg warns they want to let in. quote, law enforcement agencies are concerned that the programs facilitate criminal activity and are riddled with corruption. critics say they entrench inequality by giving opportunities to the rich that are denied to others, and say citizenship and residency are fundamental rights that should not be sold to the highest bidder. the european commission, the eu's executive branch, has warned for years that golden visa programs expose the bloc to money laundering and security risks. as you mentioned, it also not for nothing comes, i think, ten days after donald trump dismantled the justice department's foreign corrupt practices act division. >> yeah. >> so. >> well. >> here we go. >> it's utterly transactional

without. >> any values. >> what we're talking. >> about, the eb. >> five program. >> had. some value. values attached to it. but this is. >> just if you have the. >> money, it doesn't. >> matter where the. provenance of. >> the money is. it could come. >> from drug dealing. >> it could come. >> from who knows what. >> you can come in and that and that makes no judgment. and. >> the idea of transactionalism, which he. >> is. doing in. >> foreign policy. >> is something that is. values free. after we've had 80 years of having values. >> like. >> the negotiation. >> with ukraine over rare earth minerals, i mean, it's like, what's this? this is just. hijacking whatever we can get. you know, when. >> maureen was talking, i was thinking. >> you know. >> we've never. >> really had. >> a. >> discussion in the country, and we could have as well. what percentage of the country do you want to be immigrants? >> the number. >> now is about 12 or 13%, which is one of the highest times in our history. >> a country like germany, it's like 20%. >> we should have that. >> as a national discussion. >> what's the. >> optimum number and the amount of immigration. >> that will allow the country. >> to grow? the gdp to be

strong, not take jobs from people. >> who will. >> feel resented about it. >> that's a national. >> discussion that we should have, and. >> i'm hoping. that post-trump, we. >> will have that discussion. >> i mean, if we're still a country that debates things and makes policies accordingly, i mean, i'm going to go out on a limb here, and i've been watching a lot of fox they don't ever talk about i mean, you watch fox and you think the country was 90% people in this country illegally who commit violent crimes and get into deadly car accidents. i mean, that's what they they have no idea. people who are enthusiastic about deporting anyone. i mean, deporting people in this country illegally who commit violent crimes is almost universally supported. >> right? >> but that does not make up the numbers of people trump would like to deport from this country every week. >> and it's a tiny amount. i mean, as we've said many times on this show, immigrants commit crimes. >> at a. >> lower level than natural americans do. and of course, people just don't have a sense of proportion and numbers. i mean, so even this usa discussion about how much is foreign aid, i actually always

go to republicans. >> you know what? i can. >> make foreign. >> aid less than. >> 1% of the federal budget. >> how do you do that? >> well. >> it is. >> less than 1% of the federal budget. >> people just don't. >> have a. >> sense of the proportion. >> but this is this thing, again, where they're relearning all of the mistakes of previous years, right? like this is the united. >> states learning or you think they're just making it up? >> i'm not sure that they are. but like foreign aid is a great example, right? like they there's a reason why america does foreign aid and it's soft power, right? it's like i feel like there is a sense in which i don't know that they're really learning. i think that's right. but like it's the united states of amnesia, right? we remember nothing. we learned nothing. we continue. it's this gore vidal thing of like we continue to and like if you look at history, like the times when there have been these deportation squads, they have been some of the darkest moments in american history, right? internment camps during world war two. i mean, these are things they are stains in on our history, and we are lining up to do them again. >> and it's just amazing that two of the last standard bearers

before trump takes over the republican party were essentially for ronald reagan style amnesty. >> yeah. >> it's amazing. noreen, thank you for your expertise and for starting us off this hour. when we come back, the latest move in donald trump's campaign of retribution against prosecutors who tried to hold him accountable, how he's taking aim at a private law firm that works for former special counsel jack smith and tried to help him. later, we are learning more details about the first death in the texas measles outbreak. the victim is a school aged child. that school aged child was unvaccinated for the measles. and today, robert f kennedy jr, the anti-vaccine activist who now runs america's health department, tried to downplay the now deadly and spreading outbreak. we'll show you what he said later in the hour. deadline. white house continues deadline. white house continues after a quick break. don't (man) got one more antoine. (vo) with usps ground advantage, it's like you're with us every step of the way. ♪

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>> trump administration's. >> department of justice. >> the administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy. >> main justice. new episodes drop every tuesday. >> it's our job to read the news all day. report fact. check it. explain it. >> donald trump is ramping up his quest for retribution against former special counsel jack smith, despite the fact that smith's indictments against donald trump are now moot. trump yesterday signed an executive order targeting the attorneys and employees at a prominent private washington law firm named covington and burling. that firm provided pro bono legal services to jack smith. he punished them by stripping them of their security clearances. as the new york times reports quote, the memo is a breathtaking escalation of trump's effort to employ the vast powers of the presidency against mr. smith and the team of prosecutors and federal law enforcement officials who work for him. joining our coverage, msnbc legal analyst. former

s.d.n.y. criminal division deputy chief christie greenberg is here. so first of all, how do you use the federal government to punish a private law firm? >> well, the. >> executive branch. >> has the power. to confer the security. >> clearance, deny the security clearance. and generally that's. >> not really reviewed. >> by courts. but this seems like a very. specific circumstance. >> the only. >> reason it's. pretty clear from that executive order. >> that the. >> security clearance is being revoked for jack smith's personal lawyers, who. >> are going. >> to represent. >> him. in any investigation that this weaponization committee. >> has at doj. the only. >> reason that their security clearance is being revoked is because. >> they are representing. >> jack smith. >> and so. >> both of. >> these cases that. >> jack smith. >> brought involved classified information. >> so are you. going to. prevent these. >> lawyers from being. >> able to. >> represent him. >> and. do their job. >> to effectively. >> provide counsel to him? when you revoke their security clearance? i think that's a real question. >> and if. >> they get a subpoena, for. >> example, jack smith gets a

subpoena. >> and whether the testimony. >> documents or information call for classified information. >> how are they supposed to represent. >> him in. >> responding to. that subpoena? >> so i think this. >> is one of those circumstances. >> where, depending. on where the investigation goes. >> this executive order could be challenged in court. >> how does it not violate one's due process rights? >> well that too. >> i mean. usually when. >> an. >> agency does. >> this. >> there is a. >> due process. >> you know, there. >> is a. >> procedure where. >> you can. >> defend yourself if you're. >> if your. >> security clearance is. >> being revoked. >> and so there. >> is. that aspect as well. but i also think there's just the. constitutional right to have your. >> counsel be effective. >> and here. >> if. >> you're stripping. >> the ability to have your. >> lawyers have access to the. evidence against you, it. >> would. >> seem like you're in. >> violation of his rights. former justice department official noted the silence of other law firms. i mean, if you look at kash patel's published enemies list, it includes bill barr, john bolton, mark esper. i

mean, are law firms going to be reluctant to take bill barr on as a client if trump is going to carry out retribution against them? >> you know, i hope not. >> you've got. >> a. >> firm. >> like covington. >> and burling, which is one of the top firms in the country. >> you have people there. >> like former. >> ag eric. >> holder, who's a partner there. i mean, people are pretty prominent. >> and a. >> lot of. >> former prosecutors who know how this is supposed to work and know that. >> this kind. >> of. retribution is wrong. >> so i think the covington. >> and burling. >> of the world. >> those law firms that. >> have that. >> stature and can withstand. >> this kind of. >> retribution. >> i. >> think those will be fine. >> question whether some law firms that don't necessarily have the resources of a covington and burling will be able to withstand this. clearly, the. >> intended effect here is to have. >> this chilling effect. >> to have law firms not be looking. >> to represent. >> jack smith and his prosecutors. >> and i mean, that is. >> so plainly. >> wrong that hopefully lawyers know and they stand. >> up. >> for what's right here. >> it's amazing that in year nine of the trump story, one law firm is targeted, and other law

firms haven't at least publicly come out to their defense. one media outlet is thrown out of the pool, and there's not a public, you know, that people haven't learned in year nine that he will eventually come for all of us. >> yeah. and you know, what's interesting is when you think about the sort of the senators who went along with these cabinet members, if there had been a critical mass of senators. i actually talked to senator whitehouse about this on my podcast. like, if there had been enough, they would have been able to knock out an rfk jr from being that secretary. >> people started dying of measles, right? >> i mean, if they had put together 5 or 6 people, it would have been a critical mass. but they, for whatever reason, couldn't figure that out. and i think one of the things that's been really sort of detrimental to american democracy is that the billionaires were so quick to just do whatever this administration wanted, and they did not push back at all. and they sort of set a stage for this kind of complying in

advance. that is really chilling. >> i mean, what what what's amazing in year nine, again, is that i think the examples of john bolton, who was his national security advisor, bill barr, who was his attorney general, michael cohen. you go back to michael cohen, who was his fixer, dealt with, you know, alleged affairs with adult film actresses. he always turns, in some instances, most viciously on his innermost circle, who did his dirtiest business. and yet, here we are in year nine, where a prominent law firm big enough to withstand whatever retribution trump cooks up for jack smith's private law firm is sort of standing alone in this fight. it's amazing. >> but i would say in year nine, he's. >> going further. >> than he did for sure. you're you're one. >> through four. and these are. >> classic autocrats efforts. >> to end. >> the rule of law. >> and have the dominance of the law of rulers. that's what happened in eastern europe and all these countries. in the communist. >> countries. >> you get rid of people who

represent, who defend people, who defend people before the law. he never did. >> anything close. >> to this in his first term. and the irony, of course, and of. >> course, in all trumpism. >> every accusation. >> is. >> a confession. this is. >> a true. >> weaponization of the. >> justice department in a way that. >> has never, almost never happened in our history. >> that we have. >> you ask the justice. >> department go after a private law firm. >> that's. >> defending someone. >> who's an enemy of. >> the president. >> i mean, that's. >> inconceivable. >> but this happened during mccarthy. i mean, we have a long. >> yeah. >> yes. i mean, not that obviously i have a horse in this race because but, you know, the history. history is filled with the american government being weaponized. and if you think of, like, you know, jim crow, i mean, there have been periods when people in this country have felt the federal government come after them. for who? for their, you know, who they loved. >> but this but. >> yes, it's. absolutely true. >> and mccarthyism. was the. nadir of. >> of that of, of our country. >> in many ways. >> but not since then. >> right? >> not since then. >> have we.

>> had anything like this. >> even even. >> nixon kind of approached this right and. >> won and said, can. >> you you know, he had an. >> enemies list. >> but he wasn't saying prosecute people on my enemies list. >> this is further than anyone. >> has gone. >> since mccarthy. yeah. >> well, and one of the natural extensions is you have to watch to see where the prosecutors who walked out in their power struggle with emil bove land. are they employable? i mean, federalist society attorneys who clerked for roberts, scalia, kavanaugh. i mean, they just ended up cross wires with the deputy attorney general of the united states. >> it's a. >> tough question. and i think. >> yes, they are employable. i mean, their. >> their credentials are sterling. i mean. >> in a place like s.d.n.y. >> these were the cream of the crop. >> but the. question is who. >> is employing them? >> there are. >> several law firms that are known for being conservative law firms. are those law firms where they would naturally look to hire. >> these individuals? >> are those. >> law firms going to hire them?

>> you know, that's an open question. so yes. >> they are employable, but. >> will they get the jobs that they wanted? no. and that. >> just or maybe not. that just shows you why. >> what they did was so. >> courageous, because. >> they could have taken the easy way out and just followed the directive from amol. he was very clear that they didn't do anything wrong. you have such integrity. >> i'm not. >> questioning the team and they could have said, well, this is what we were ordered to. >> do. >> but they didn't do that. >> now they're. >> facing investigations. >> now their. >> employment prospects are. >> potentially affected. right. you've got danielle sassoon was eight months pregnant. >> dealing with all of. this is. >> a lot of stress. and you know, they did the right thing and. >> they should be. >> commended for that. and i expect that within the community of. >> former prosecutors. >> there will be people looking. >> to defend her and also. >> people who would look to say, yeah, we should give this person a job, we should. >> reward that. but just to come back to the autocratic model, the only way that the democracy side wins is that there isn't just someone, but everyone. yeah, right. the only way the autocratic model fails is if she becomes more commercial and more desirable. and i and i'm i'm

going to go out on a limb and guess that that won't be the case. there'll be a lot of people scared. when we come back, hhs secretary robert f kennedy says the now deadly measles outbreak in texas is, quote, not unusual, even though it is in every single way. the number of cases keeps going up and school aged child has now died. we'll bring you that story next. >> safelite repair safelite replace. >> nobody likes a cracked windshield. >> i but. >> at least you can go to safelite and schedule a fix in minutes. go to safelite.com and schedule a replacement today. >> safelite repair safelite replace. >> this is the emirates premium >> this is the emirates premium economy seat. economy. it's time to feed the dogs real food in the right amount. a healthy weight can help dogs live a longer and happier life. the farmer's dog makes weight management easy with fresh food pre-portioned for your dog's needs.

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>> times faster than job postings. >> get your own. >> paychex recruiting copilot. >> now at. >> health officials in texas say a child has died from the measles. they confirmed that the

child was school aged and that the child was unvaccinated. it is very sad. it is tragic. the very first death from measles in the united states in a decade, and from a virus that was declared eliminated in our country 25 years ago. thanks to the two dose vaccine that the cdc says is safe and is recommended starting at 12 to 15 months of age and almost entirely prevents the measles, one of the most contagious human viruses. it is also alarming considering this preventable outbreak, clustered in rural west texas, now has hit 124 cases and another nine cases in neighboring new mexico. most of those cases are among babies, children and teenagers, and nearly all of them, too, are unvaccinated. health officials in texas said today that more than 20 patients have been hospitalized. all of the hospitalized patients are unvaccinated. officials warn that cases are underreported and

that this outbreak is not going away anytime soon because in texas and across the country, measles vaccination rates among kindergartners have plummeted in recent years to now below the level needed for herd immunity. thanks in part to the debunked theories spread by anti-vaccine activists, people like the new secretary of health and human services, robert f kennedy jr. who peddled debunked theories about the measles vaccine on the island nation of samoa. two months before an outbreak there in 2019 killed 83 people. most of the victims were children under five years old. here's how he described the current measles outbreak earlier today. texas is largest outbreak in nearly 30 years, and with again the first death in the united states of america in a decade. >> we are. >> following the measles epidemic every day. incidentally, there have been four measles outbreaks. >> this year.

>> in this country. >> last year there were 16. so it's not unusual. we have measles outbreaks every year. >> joining our conversation, public health analyst doctor irwin redlener. he is co-founder of the children's health fund and founding director of the national center for disaster preparedness at columbia university. i know you have thoughts. >> oh, do i? >> yes, i do, nicole. >> you know, one of the most amazing things about this particular appointment of bobby kennedy jr. as hhs secretary, i would say that he is probably the most influential anti-vaxxer in the entire world, not only in the united states. he's influenced, as you pointed out, the measles epidemic in samoa. he's been peddling nonsense all over africa. and it's just extraordinary. here's who we have now. at a time of national public health crisis, a. >> man who. >> really doesn't even

understand the basic principles of public health, and he's now supposed to be setting the policies and running an agency of $1.8 trillion budget and 80,000 employees. it's like i was going to say, i don't know how we got here, but i guess i do know how we got here. and it's really dangerous. and like you said, we haven't. >> had a fatality. >> in ten years before the measles vaccine was around. we had 2 or 3000 children a year that would die of measles. it was declared. >> eradicated in. the united. >> states in about 2000. and that was it. it became like an obscure disease that occasionally breakthroughs. >> what happened. but now we're now we're deep. >> in it again, seeing the reemergence of. >> a disease. >> that should have been long, long gone. >> because we are seeing the reemergence of a disease that should be long gone. some people don't even know what it's like. can you describe what it's like

when your baby has the measles? >> yeah, i can't. >> it's a. >> miserable disease. you know, kids get a very high fever. they get a terrible rash. they get a cough and, you know, a serious cough. >> and they are. >> really disabled as far as any acute illness for quite some time, until it either goes away. >> or they get worse or. they would. >> get admitted to the hospital. and in those cases that didn't go well, like. >> i said. >> there would be a couple 3000 deaths per year. it was a dreaded disease, you know, like mumps and like these other things that, you know, like modern science and modern medicine. has been working on and. >> we've eradicated. >> and for some reason, we're. >> reintroducing it because. people are believing. >> nonsense promulgated by the likes of bobby kennedy jr and many others. and this is this is a problem. >> but parents. >> should know and i just need to emphasize it. get your kids vaccinated. you get one shot around 1215. months of age, a

booster, another one between 4 and 6 years of age. and that's that. you don't have to worry about. >> something that. >> should be long gone. so this is this is basically it. and people have to resist bs. i know this is a family show, so let's. >> just call it bs. >> i think bill barr ushered that word into our lexicon. >> yes he did. but anyway, this is you know, pediatricians are just aghast. >> that we're back. >> here at this point that we were before 1963, when that vaccine was miraculously developed and saved so many lives. >> so you're a doctor. how do you square a doctor like senator cassidy? voting for someone as dangerous as rfk? >> i was surprised. you know, there's four doctors in the senate, and all four of them confirmed. but cassidy really raked bobby over the coals in the confirmation hearings. and i actually was texting with him and his staff and a couple of

the other ones. i would have bet that he was going to dissent from that vote. and at the end of the day, he and the other three doctors who went to medical school should know better. went along with one of. >> the great sad myths of. >> american society today. and it's a shame. it's shocking. and i hope those senators, the doctors in particular, realize that along with bobby himself, they bear some responsibility. if measles truly gets out of control in america, they should have known better. >> i think. >> they do know better. but like with every other issue. that that the senators and members of congress are. >> facing. they're terrified. >> about this. i don't know, mysterious primary thing or violent threats. i, i don't know, but i'm. >> i'm really. >> worked up about this. nicole. >> it's very. >> it's a very sad state of affairs. >> no one's going anywhere. we'll bring everyone else in on the other side of a very short

break. stay with us. >> we saw elon musk take kind of a powerful role. did anything about how he wielded his power. surprise you? do you not need a katrina level. >> type of. response that. >> is rebuilding to make sure it won't happen again? you've obviously made a decision to resign. >> are there any. >> lessons that can be. >> learned as you're. >> talking to. >> members of your congregation, what do you tell them about how. >> to stand up for their. >> own moral. >> beliefs. >> but. >> still find. >> still find. >> gra (♪♪) hi neighbor! you switched to t-mobile home internet yet? trim your hedge. it's $35 bucks a month with no price hikes! bam! it runs on t-mobile's wireless 5g network, so all you gotta do is plug in one cord! t-mobile 5g home internet. just $35 bucks a month. and with price lock, we won't raise your rate on internet. i did it! aaahh!! i switched to t-mobile home internet, and i am loving it! don't sneak up on me like that. (♪♪)

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when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special member kit to show you're part of a movement to defend free speech, protect our civil liberties, and keep families together. i hope you'll join me in supporting the aclu today. because we the people means all of us. call or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. >> we need. >> to. >> know about. measles is measles is a very. severe illness that has a mortality. >> rate of about 3%. >> and so knowing that when we have large outbreaks, you know, unfortunately, statistically there's a significant risk of having of having a death. i certainly. >> hope we. >> don't see any more. but i think. >> we're we're. fairly early still.

>> in this outbreak. >> we're all back. importantly, that was doctor laura johnson, chief medical officer of covenant children's hospital in texas, where the child died, and basically having to fact check a sitting hhs secretary who said two people have died, but we're watching it. 20 people are hospitalized, mainly for quarantine. i don't think that's the case, either. i think they're just quarantining. >> i don't know what what they're actually doing. neither does bobby kennedy jr, apparently. so we'll have to see how this plays out. but right now we have actually a critical situation. so when we used to have like you know, 2 or 3000 deaths per year, we're talking about millions of children potentially getting it. so the fraction was very small. now we have 124. >> cases in texas. >> nine in new mexico. >> so the denominator is. >> very hospital. >> right. and then but the denominator is. >> very small. >> yet we're. >> still seeing a death maybe

two deaths and a bunch of kids hospitalized. this does not. >> bode well for what. >> we might be seeing in. >> the very near future. >> it's amazing. it's an amazing inversion of america's role in the world. and again, back to the autocrats playbook. i mean, autocrats would love to see america not just divided, but divided and sick. and the reason pepfar came to be the reason usaid existed in a lot of places was to vaccinate children so that children were spared the brutality of wars and autocracies. and here we are in the united states of america. 5:30 p.m. on a wednesday talking about a measles outbreak. >> and that was one of the benefits of a central. >> government. >> that they. >> made rules that. >> benefited everybody. i mean, your figure of a few thousand people who died in the us. >> i. >> was looking. >> at the world health. >> organization estimates that. >> 6 or. >> 7 million children died a year, every year before there was this vaccine. i mean, it's

horrific. >> and part of the. >> thing that is also. >> this is kind of a. >> scientific illiteracy. i remember reading that famous study about the flu vaccine, where people think all these anti-vaxxers thinks the flu vaccine gives you the flu. what was the british study that showed that. some about 10% of people who got the flu vaccine already had the flu, but didn't know it, and then they became symptomatic after the vaccine and they assumed it was the vaccine rather than the fact that they got it. that's the same thing. i assume that happens with these conspiracy theories around the mmr vaccine, right. is that is that right? >> that is right. >> and once. >> you start getting. >> into conspiracy theories, you've thrown science out the window. so you don't know. >> what studies. >> are supposed to depend on or what the media is supposed to report on. >> and therefore. >> if the media is the. >> communicator and they're getting these mixed messages. >> and they're mixed with nonsense. >> it is very difficult to have an educated. >> public say, we're not going to tolerate this. >> which is why at the end of

the day, who's in charge of the cdc. >> who's in charge. >> of hhs is critical. and by the way, to your point, rick, the united states cdc and the department of health. >> and human services. >> were the most respected in the world. you know, so it's like we're dealing with our problems domestically, but we have an influence internationally. we withdrew from the world health organization. we're talking about unpredictably wild, inappropriate actions by by the administration around public health. >> and some of this is a response to covid, right, to the hostility towards doctors from covid, the anger on the right, and, you know, on the left for not getting it right immediately. and i wonder if you could talk through like it almost feels like we are causing more problems for ourselves in this way. as a response to covid, do you have any sort of historical precedent for what happens in a post pandemic? you

know, america? >> well, this is very. >> very different. >> for a lot. >> of reasons without going. >> to the details about it. but what happened. >> was one of the things that. we observed was, listen, on. >> the democratic. >> side as. >> well as. >> the republican side. >> i wouldn't. call this. >> you know, getting a grade of. a in our. communications abilities. >> yeah. and i'm sure. for people in the media, journalists were aware of the fact that one day the. >> cdc would. >> say x and a week later we without really understanding the basic principles of communicating during a crisis. this was a terrible crisis. people were hungry for good. >> honest. >> scientifically based information during a pandemic, and they weren't getting it. yeah. and yes, that that had a i think your point is extremely well taken. that was that was a major blow to public confidence in medicine and science. >> and it's. >> going to be a long time before we recover from that. >> is that accurate information about what people can do if

their child is either under vaccinated or unvaccinated? still available on the cdc website. >> i looked at the cdc website today, and most of it is still there. what we're going to be seeing i have from, i think pretty. good sources is they're going to be watering it down. so what looks like recommendations or or requirements are going to become really kind. >> of voluntary. >> yeah. you want to get your kids vaccinated. you know that'd. >> be okay. we're not going to. >> stop you. and bobby kennedy jr. >> is famous. >> for saying that. >> we're not going to. >> stop anybody from getting vaccinated. that's not the way you. >> do public health. >> that's the way. >> you do cosmetic. >> surgery and getting a hair transplant. you know, you say. >> would you like to get this? >> well, we'll think about it. the public. health perspective is we have to protect you and you, but the whole population, everybody here has got to get protected. and the only way to do that is with public health

requirements. that's a governmental responsibility that secretary kennedy doesn't seem. to appreciate, unfortunately. >> thank you so much for being here and joining us. sadly, i think we're going to continue to not sad to see you, but sad that we'll continue to have these stories. thank you. read leonard greenberg, rick stengel, molly jong-fast, thank you all very much for being here today. another break. we'll be right back. >> our restaurant's. >> been in business. for 17 years. american technology and innovation are a part of everything. >> we do. >> from helping us attract new customers. >> to. facilitating deliveries through websites and apps. >> i'm really. excited about what artificial intelligence can do for small businesses like ours. this game changing technology can make us smarter and more efficient. advancing open source. ai will make our economy and main. >> street stronger. >> our leaders in washington need to protect our competitive edge. >> kids, i'm sure. >> you're wondering. >> why your mother and i asked.

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