government. >> establishing the tone, establishing the seriousness, and establishing the trust very quickly in the last moment or so that we have left. do you see any what story are you watching the most closely coming out of the white house? is it zelensky coming to. >> the white for today's zelensky is the whole ballgame here. i mean we just saw trump call him a dictator you know just recently. >> and then forget. >> about it. and then you know go back on it yesterday. this is kind of how these relationships go. we you and i both know this, but it is a critical moment here getting this minerals deal and then obviously trying to figure out what the future is in ukraine. >> yeah absolutely. a lot of eyes going to be on that meeting, including all of our adam cancryn. thank you my friend. and that was way too early for this friday morning. morning joe starts right now. >> but european union has been. it was formed in order to screw the united states. i mean, look, let's be honest, the european union was formed in order to screw the united states. that's the purpose of it. and they've done a good job of it. but now

i'm president. >> what will happen if these countries or the eu retaliate? >> they can't. i mean, they can try, but they can't. >> you said yesterday that the eu was constructed to screw the us when it comes to trade. what can our prime minister say to you to persuade you not to impose tariffs on the united? >> yeah. did i use the word that you said that bad word? >> i think so. >> i think of it a modestly successful comedian, a dictator without elections. zelensky, better move fast or he's not going to have a country left. >> mr. president, i think that mr. zelensky is a dictator. >> did i say that? i can't believe i said that. next question. >> donald trump either being coy. or forgetting what he said in recent days. i don't think he forgot. but talking about the eu and ukrainian president zelensky. willie. yeah, not exactly sure how they're going to be reading that in kyiv or in

brussels or wherever. eu leadership reads things. but yeah, that's, that's that's only going to raise more troubling questions for leaders of the eu and ukraine. >> yeah. that's by the way, something donald trump always does. say something inflammatory then deny it or walk away from it or try to anyway. unfortunately for him that's on tape and things. very interesting because ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky will visit the white house this morning to finalize that mineral rights deal. unclear. still, though, if he'll get the security guarantees he is seeking. we'll get into the details of that. plus, we'll go through a federal judge's ruling on memos from the trump administration directing the mass firing of federal workers and what it means for employees who already have been let go. meanwhile, inflation heading in the wrong direction, the price of eggs has been getting a lot of attention. but now meat prices are nearing record highs

among many other products. with us this morning, the co-host of our fourth hour contributing writer at the atlantic, jonathan lemire, managing editor at the bulwark. sam stein, washington bureau chief at usa today. susan page, co-founder of axios. mike allen and rogers chair in the american presidency at vanderbilt university. historian jon meacham. joe. >> yeah. you know, willie, we we've got this show that's like i think mika and i timed it out. it's like 47 hours a day. and so, yeah, when you get off the show. right. you're right. people are like, oh, so what's going on? and what so what, you don't really want to talk about politics. and, you know, you and me especially are work not only with the orphanage, but with this documentary that the barnacle boys are going to do with us about our time locked up in turkey in 72, 73. we're busy. so usually when people are calling me, they're calling and say, hey, you know, ask him about politics. but you know

that something's really cut through. and when, especially over the last couple of months when that's not happening. and i got a couple calls yesterday, i think in part because people knew, you know, what a huge fan of gene hackman's i was. but i think also just because the further we get away from this breaking news, the stranger it gets. i got a couple people calling, hey, could you tell me? and i was like, what are they? what are they going to ask me about? you know, you know, about what's happening in washington, d.c. but they go back to this gene hackman story because it seems to get stranger the more you hear about it. i it's hard to figure out exactly what happened there. >> yeah. i mean, when this cross yesterday morning around this time early, it already felt a little strange that gene hackman and his wife both had died and one of the dogs was dead. there were many questions surrounding it, and now we're getting a little bit more information. police in santa fe, santa fe are

calling the death of gene hackman and his wife suspicious. nbc news correspondent dana griffin has new details. >> chilling new details in the death of legendary actor gene hackman and his wife of 34 years, betsy arakawa. >> you know. >> all i can say is they have been deceased. deceased for quite a while. >> their bodies found wednesday afternoon after a groundskeeper called 911 after arriving at their santa fe, new mexico, home and seeing them through a window. >> are they moving at all? no, they're not moving. just send somebody up here really quick. >> authorities are investigating the deaths as suspicious, but have already ruled out a carbon monoxide leak and say there were no obvious signs of foul play. >> there was no indication of a struggle. there was no indication of anything that was missing from the home or disturbed. >> when deputies arrived, they located the body of hackman's 65 year old wife in a bathroom located near the front door, which was open, according to the warrant. officers noted an

orange bottle of prescription pills scattered on the countertop and a space heater near her head, which detectives say could indicate she fell abruptly to the ground. 95 year old hackman was found dead in a mudroom near the kitchen, according to the warrant. it states his cane was next to him, indicating he may have fallen and was unable to get up. deputies also found the couple's german shepherd dead in her crate. the warrant says both gene and betsy's bodies showed signs of decomposition. >> this is an investigation, so we're keeping everything on the table. you know, i think the autopsy is going to tell us a lot. >> dana griffin reporting there. joe. so the way the police have reported this out is that a couple of maintenance workers who regularly were doing work over the years, that gene hackman's home saw the front door open. thought that was suspicious. called the police. and the police went in and saw the scene you saw described in the affidavit there. but yeah, hackman and his wife were found in different places in the home. the dog still in a crate, all of it indicating that they may have

died some time ago. >> yeah. and, jonathan, the autopsy obviously is going to be so important, but police reporting that nothing was missing from the house. >> yeah. it's a it is a strange one. we'll learn more in. the in the days ahead. police have been now a couple of times. >> circumstances suspicious. but they have said now a few times there's no evidence of foul play. one theory that a law enforcement person familiar with the case floated to me yesterday is it's perhaps mrs. hackman. gene hackman's wife died first of some sort of medical episode, and then then gene hackman, who was 95 and not in the best of health, perhaps died afterwards, whether he was trying to assist her or sometime later, it's unclear. but from those initial reports, it seems like both have been dead for some time and maybe her more than him. and then there's the moment of the deceased dog. and the one dog who did die was near the prescription pills that were spilled. perhaps the dog got

into those pills while the others were still alive elsewhere on the property. but again, this is just one theory at this point. nothing is certain. but it will. it will be a, you know, will, it'll take days and potentially, you know, a week or more before the, you know, autopsy and all the toxicology reports are complete. these things do take some time, you know, when that initial autopsy report is finished in the next couple of days, we'll learn more. but we may not have definitive answers here for quite some time. but certainly a very, very sad story. gene hackman, one of hollywood's greatest actors, and this couple had been together for decades. >> yeah, it is a sad story. we'll have more details as we get them. we'll bring them to you. for now, though, we want to turn back to washington, where ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky will meet this morning with president trump at the white house. the leaders expected to sign a deal giving the united states ownership of some rare earth minerals in ukraine, although the specific details have not yet been disclosed. the talks follow a tense back and forth, with zelensky rejecting trump's earlier proposal that the u.s.

take $500 billion worth of minerals without offering security guarantees. while trump has downplayed security commitments, he claimed yesterday american involvement alone provides some level of protection. >> president zelensky is coming to see. me on friday, friday morning, and we're going to be signing really a very important agreement for both sides because it's really going to get us into that country will be working there. we'll have a lot of people working there. and so in that sense, it's very good. it's a backstop. you could say, i don't think anybody's going to play around if we're there with a lot of workers and having to do with rare earths and other things, which we need for our country, and we appreciate it very much. and i look forward to seeing him. >> so, joe, that offer there is going to provide a lot of comfort to president zelensky, the people of ukraine or to europe, by the way, that just by virtue of us being there, the united states having a presence in ukraine, nobody's going to mess with us. it's clear that

zelensky cannot leave washington with at least some security guarantees. if he's going to give up all these rare earth minerals in his country. >> well, we always hear that the first you know, the first thing that donald trump says is an opening bid. i don't know if it is an opening bid. and what we've been hearing over the past two weeks, it's an opening bid that just doesn't make any sense. and nobody would take. first of all, he starts at a $500 billion number. congress appropriated about 180 million, i believe tops. europe did more than that, by the way, just for all the information that's out there saying otherwise. second thing is that that that even though congress has appropriated that much money, some reports are that we haven't even given them $100 billion yet. i said even i mean, that's a lot of money, but that's not $500 billion. so you're talking about $100 billion that we've already

sent their way. of course, so much of that was sent in the forms of weapons that were built here in the united states of america and created american jobs, was good for america, just like the eu relationship has been good for america. the trade has been good for america. our economy has dominated the world and is the envy of the world. the international system post-world war two set up pretty well for the united states of america to thrive. that's and that's one of the jon meacham that's one of the enduring mysteries for me, that that republicans, people who call themselves republicans, don't understand that this, this post-world war two international order has been a benefited the united states of america in an extraordinary way. and i also have got to say, i'm curious what your thoughts are about a proposed $500 billion. i don't know exactly what you would call

it. pay payoff from ukraine to the united states of america. that seems to me like we're getting into treaty of versailles material there. that would. first of all, it doesn't line up with how much the united states has loaned ukraine. and secondly, it's it it would be crippling to an economy that has to get rebuilt after this war finally ends. >> yeah. >> in more ways than one. it's a pre. 1914 maneuver. it's a kind of imperialism, basically. zelensky is renting us. we're renting ourselves to them for a certain amount of money and asset. the thing that i go back to again and again, and i have never heard a very good answer. and so we'll just frame the question one more time is how did the party of the reagan

republican cold war tear down this wall, george h.w. bush? this aggression will not stand. this ethos of protecting the interests of democracies against autocracies. when did that just suddenly change? not when, but why? why did that suddenly change? and to me, it's one of the central questions of the era, because the reorientation of american foreign policy from a particularly on the center right and over from we will stand for freedom and not universally not saying we were somehow perfect before 2017. and now now we're not. but what is it in the trump canon that has

put us more on the side of aggressors, as opposed to those who ordinarily, for decades would receive our support and our sympathy? >> it's fascinating. it really is. i mean, i think everyone on this panel right now would tell you, when they talk privately to republicans, they say, of course, putin is the aggressor. of course, zelensky is not a dictator, of course, that ukraine is the victim here, but then won't go out and say it publicly because of one man. the president and president trump hosted british prime minister keir starmer at the white house yesterday during a joint press conference. starmer addressed trump's efforts to broker a peace deal between ukraine and russia, stressing the importance of ensuring that any agreement is handled correctly. meanwhile, earlier in the day, president trump commented on whether he believes russia's vladimir putin would abide by the terms of a ceasefire if, in fact, it is reached. >> mr. president, i welcome your

deep and personal commitment to bring peace and to stop the killing. you've created a moment of tremendous opportunity to reach a historic peace deal, a. deal that i think would be celebrated in ukraine and around the world. that is the prize. but we have to get it right. it can't be peace that rewards the aggressor, or that gives encouragement to regimes like iran. we agree history must be on the side of the peacemaker, not the invader. so the stakes, they couldn't be higher. >> what would you be willing to do if vladimir putin did not stick to the terms of any deal on ukraine? >> if he not. >> what did not stick to the terms of any deal on ukraine, because he has a history of not sticking to his word when it comes to international agreements. >> i think he'll keep his word. i think i think he's i've spoken to him. i've known him for a long time now. you know, i've known him. we had we had to go

through the russian hoax together. that was not a good thing. it's not fair. that was a rigged deal and had nothing to do with russia. it was a rigged deal with inside the country. and they had to put up with that, too. they put up with a lot. it wasn't just us. they had to put up with it with a phony story that was made up. i've known him for a long time now, and i think he will. i don't believe he's going to violate his word. i don't think he'll be back when we make a deal. i think the deal is going to hold. >> joe. before we get on to talk about ukraine, we have to just pause right there. and that statement was extraordinary. the president, united states saying, yeah, it is. he and vladimir putin went through the russia hoax together. they were in this thing together that people were out to get them when it was well documented. whether you think the trump campaign in 2016 sought the help or welcomed the help or not, it's not disputed that russia put its thumb on the scale in that election. but he he sees a partner in that fight and a fellow victim. >> every single one of donald

trump's intelligence select leaders that he selected, agency heads that he selected, believed. and it was the position of our government that russia interfered in the 2016 election. yeah. now, do you want to jump to conclusion on that? that's that's where the huge debate goes. and that's when you start hearing about russia hoax. but there is no hoax behind the central fact that russia interfered in the election for the benefit of donald trump, whether he sought that help or not. again, that is that's been a raging debate since 2017. but but even marco rubio, when he was running the senate intelligence committee, marco rubio and republicans said that donald trump's 2016 campaign, an

actor's in it, caused a direct counterintelligence threat to the united states of america's security. that's what marco rubio that's what the republican senate intel committee said. and again, not not to belabor this point, but, you know, they're just some things that that that, you know, stop the presses. and this is one of them. again, our own intelligence agencies under donald trump, susan page said that russia interfered in the 2016 election. that's that's just you could go into any courtroom in america and get judicial notice of that. it is such it's common and it's established fact. and it's. not really even the fundamental origin of president trump's admiration and alignment with

vladimir putin. it is, though he cited it yesterday as kind of a formative experience. we know that that donald trump has been attracted to strong men, been willing to trust vladimir putin's assurances over those of his own intelligence agencies. i mean, it's one of the fundamental shifts we've seen in our foreign policy, and the other is the transactional nature of it. i mean, that's one thing that's so striking about the meeting with zelensky today. you know, when u.s. troops helped expel iraqi forces from kuwait, we didn't then demand that kuwait provide us with some some exchange to make up for the money we had spent there. this is a this is a new endeavor on the part of the united states in modern times, and a very different sort of foreign policy. >> you know, it's very, very interesting. sam stein, let's let's pull back and look at the meeting with keir starmer

yesterday. also, look, earlier in the week at the meeting with macron. and you look at how these two western european leaders interacted with donald trump, somewhat different than the first term where, you know, more grimaced handshakes. of course, macron and donald trump still have the handshaking contest. i wonder how long that's going to last. but that's just a thing. maybe they get dana white in there next time to officiate it. but you notice, though, it was personally, they all tried to express warmth. and you you had them gently chiding the president on ukraine, basically doing the sort of corrections that we do and other people do in the show about whether it's a loan or or whatever. but you saw yesterday, actually keir starmer and donald trump get along much better than most people thought, even with the british prime minister delivering a note from king charles requesting a state

dinner, i guess, at buckingham palace, is. >> it abnormal. >> to shake. >> someone's hand for 14. >> seconds in a grimace? >> i usually. >> do it every time they meet. it's crazy. yeah, i got you. >> i think the memos. >> going out, and. >> rightfully so. that the. >> way to deal with trump is to use flattery. and it's not that complicated. and i think this is sort of the through line through all of this, which is, you know, one of the reasons trump is agitating towards ending the war in favorable terms for russia, i think, frankly, is that he just has more admiration for putin than zelensky. he likes putin more, and really it's transactional, susan said. but it's also quite personal. starmer, macron they both know that if they want to extract anything from trump vis a vis concessions for the fight for ukraine, they have to flatter him. and so you have these

situations where starmer is up there saying, oh, thank you, mr. president. you've delivered this historic opportunity for peace. as if he isn't aware that trump would have gladly handed over ukraine to russia the moment russia invaded. and that's just the price of admission for dealing with trump on the on the foreign stage. and i think this is a sort of distinction, i guess, between the first term, where a lot of world leaders want to rightfully show bravado and stand up to trump and lecture him on the ways of the world, and didn't really get them anywhere. this time around, they know that they have much more success, i suppose, with carrots than with sticks. >> yeah, i suppose so. and you, you look, though, jonathan lemire again at, at what western european leaders are having to do to try to get donald trump to stay supportive of ukraine. and it is it seems like it is this back and forth, this back and forth. it's going to be curious to see how today's meeting goes.

what are you expecting with president zelensky? >> yeah. first, you're right about flattery. and also trump is known to have a soft spot for the british royal family. so i'm told that he repeatedly spent much of last evening talking about how wonderful this invitation was. it would be his second state dinner. i believe he'd be the first president to receive a second state dinner in the uk, and he took to truth social as well, to post about what an honor that was. the relation with zelensky, though very different. we've seen zelensky try to flatter him a little bit too, particularly during the, you know, the end, the transition here. you know, zelensky's accounting of some of their phone calls. zelensky goes back and forth at times. he can't hide his frustration. he knows that trump is endangering the very his country's very existence with by siding with russia. but other times, zelensky does seem like he's trying to get on trump's good side. and now there's this minerals deal details to be worked out, though many have deemed sort of extortion for ukraine. but it's more favorable for ukraine today than it was a week or so ago when the treasury

secretary just shoved the paper at zelensky and said, you need to sign this. this seems a little more reasonable now, but trump continues to side with putin in this arrangement. and mike axios has a new piece up this morning titled trump's new world order strong men make the rules. obviously, putin is fits the definition. tell us what you guys are all looking at there. >> yeah thank you jonathan. this pulls back the camera piece. >> by zachary. >> basu looking. >> at the trump. >> world order. >> and we've. >> all been saying that trump is disrupting the. world order since 1945. leave it to monsignor meacham to pull that back even further. three decades going back to 1914, 111 years, however you dated. this is a complete change. and what's changing? trump has contempt for the alliances and the institutions. >> that the. >> world as we know it has grown up in. he sees opportunity in a

world that's dominated by strong men and dealmaking. what's in their head, what's behind this? like axios always trying to show you how trump thinks. and zach isolated a key quote. >> by secretary. >> of state marco rubio during his confirmation hearing. he said that that global postwar. order since 1945. is not just inhibiting the united states, but actually is being used as a weapon against it now. so what we see playing out is the scorn that so many of the trump people have for europe, for its trade, for its defense, for its culture, for its speech, like all those things about europe that they see as icky is all playing out here. but today we're seeing trump, the dealmaker, and another great piece up on axios at this moment from barak. ravid points out

that day by day we have seen trump's tone about zelensky softening. so after two weeks of attack, he's getting ready to play the host. >> all right everybody stay with us. lots more to talk about this morning. still ahead, the trump administration sweeping effort to shrink the size of the federal workforce hits a new roadblock. we'll dig into a new ruling by a federal judge as firings continue to take place. but first, as we mentioned, president trump repeatedly has made false claims about the amount of aid the united states has given to ukraine. steve rattner is standing by with the fact check. morning joe back in 90s. 90s. >> calling. previous psoriatic arthritis symptoms can be unpredictable. one day, your joints hurt. next, it's on your skin. i got cosentyx. feels good to move. feel less joint pain, swelling and tenderness, back pain, and clearer skin, and help stop further joint damage with cosentyx.

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mutual. >> you're just. >> a flightless bird. no. >> he's a dreamer, frank. >> okay. >> and, doug. >> well. >> i'll be that bird. really? did it. >> only pay for. >> what you need. liberty. liberty? liberty, liberty. >> we're going to be signing the deal together, probably in front of the media. and we're going to be having a good conversation. no, we want to work with him. president zelenskyy, zelenskyy, she said before, we want to work with him and we will work with him. i think the president and i actually have had a very good relationship. it maybe got a little bit testy because we wanted to have a little bit of what the european nations said, you know, they they get their money back by giving money. we don't get the money back. biden made a deal. he put in $350 billion. and i thought it was a very unfair situation.

>> we're not getting all of ours. i mean, quite a bit of ours was, was was gifted. it was. given there were some loans, but mainly it was gifted. actually. >> that was british prime minister keir starmer correcting president trump's claim that european countries are providing aid, are going to get their money back. that that was almost an exact mirror of emmanuel macron, who also corrected the president when he said a similar statement during the french president's visit earlier this week. we're going to get to steve rattner in a minute. he'll go through all the numbers for you. but but i also just got to say that 350 and steve will, i'm sure, show this $350 billion is just it's just a number grabbed out of thin air. we didn't do it again. steve's going to go through these numbers, but it's just it's wildly off. so and the negotiations that's obviously getting those numbers right obviously going to be important. and the ukrainians and everybody else is going to know what the real number is. it's not close to $350 billion. jon meacham,

you talked you had taken us back talking about, you know, it's moving, moving further back than the post-world war two order. you talked about this being pre 1914. i am curious, there are a lot of things that are happening in washington have been happening over the past couple of years, where there really aren't a lot of parallels. i suspect, though, this view of the world, what what what is old is new. again, this view of the world that donald trump is bringing in to the white house and sort of smashing this postwar order that has seen the united states dominate the world economically and militarily, in every other way, culturally, you name it. we've dominated since the end of world war two. but he's trying to bring about this new order. take us back. is this more like a teddy roosevelt imperialist approach? is this william mckinley? who who does

this remind you of his his his world view when it comes to power politics? >> it's older than that, even. it's almost medieval and renaissance, right? this this is a royal house with a kingdom who bases relations on personal connection, personal feeling to go to something susan said a moment ago. and basically the transfer of assets. it's a very autocratic, very straightforward. i mean, let's be honest, it's kind of i don't want to say refreshing, but but the president is being very clear here. so one of the things that i think is, is really important here is to remember that we are now living to shift from a historical metaphor to a cultural one. we're now living

in the sopranos, right? this is a this is a protection racket, basically, president zelensky is being asked to come to washington to pay for our protection. and one of the most revealing moments, i think, of the last couple of weeks was in some comments the president made. it was about the associated press situation and the white house. and i believe i have this almost, almost exactly right. but it's certainly the essence of it. the ap doesn't do me any favors, so i'm not going to do them any favors. that's the way the world works. that's the way the world works. that's where we are. and it's a there's not a lot of diplomatic thought here. you know, this is there's not going to be a foreign affairs piece about this doctrine. that's the way the

world works. >> yeah. i mean, it's, by the way, your metaphor with the sopranos is one that's been used by members of congress. jim himes, ranking member, democrat from connecticut, said the same thing. it's a protection racket. except, as we've been pointing out so far, no protection, just the racket. so that's why zelensky will be at the white house today seeking a little bit of that protection. if i'm giving up my minerals, you got to make sure that they're not going to invade. presidential historian jon meacham again, walking us from medieval times all the way up to late 20th century new jersey with the sopranos. well done john. thank you. joining us now, former treasury official and morning joe economic analyst steve rattner, with charts on ukrainian aid. so, steve, this is something that we've been focused on for the last several days. donald trump throwing around that number of $350 billion. what are the numbers really look like. yeah he. >> talks about. >> $350 billion. you guys correct. >> him every morning.

>> and then. >> he goes back. >> the. >> next day and says the same thing. >> so i. >> don't know. we'll try some charts and see if that helps. but before i get to that let me just say something. underscoring what i heard earlier at the top of the show, the idea that we are effectively asking our ally, who was attacked to pay the equivalent of the reparations that we asked germany to pay in world war one, is kind of mind boggling. we're here to help these people not get money back. and as the british prime minister said, it is not correct to say all of the european money is loans. that may be some loans in there, but most of it just like us, is aid. but in any event, here are the numbers once and for all. maybe donald trump will pay attention today. he claims $350 billion. the actual number from the kiel institute impartial observer is $120 billion. he talks about how europe only spent $100 billion. actual number $138 billion. these are the numbers once and for all as we sit here today. now let's look at how we're doing compared to other

countries. and it's kind of interesting because you do have three countries, small countries that happen to also be close to moscow. that's not a coincidence. spending over 2% of their gdp on on aid to ukraine. then you get to a whole bunch of other countries that are kind of in the rough, the rough zone of about half a percentage point of their gdp. germany a little bit higher than the us, france, uk, italy and so on. so we are right in the middle of the pack. we are actually number 17. i didn't list all the countries. we are number 17 among the countries providing aid. when you measure it against our gross domestic product and these are also the numbers. so we're not doing anything extraordinary. >> yeah. you know that's fascinating steve. especially you look obviously europe. do the balkan states doing so much better, giving so much more. and as you said, for good reason. i'm surprised that germany is even above us, because the german government has been

criticized for quite some time for not doing more. but there they are. i want you to tell us, walk us through another part of this that is so important. when we talk about the 120 billion that that we have given ukraine, a lot of that has gone to us factories, us workers, us and the us economy, because a lot of the work supports american businesses. >> yeah, exactly. joe. so let's take a look over here at two points. the first, the one that you're referring to, it's been estimated, excuse me, that as much as 70% of our aid has actually been spent in the united states. so that is money that is here. it's not even necessarily in the form of aid. we've just literally sent them equipment, sent them ammunition that we have then replaced using our money from us factories, us workers. i want to make one other point about this, and then i'll get back to that, which is that we have committed only another $5 billion at this moment of aid. and you remember,

and it was shown on the other chart how up and down our aid commitments have been. it's been a fight with the senate every time, every time a president has tried to get it. the eu has promised another $121 billion of aid. so if they actually do this, their aid will be vastly greater than ours. back to the question of where the money is spent. here's a map of the united states. all these dots represent amounts of money spent in different congressional districts. there are nine congressional districts up here in massachusetts and pennsylvania and so forth. we're over $1 billion has been spent in each of these nine districts. six of them happen to be held by republicans, by democrats, excuse me, three of them held by republicans. and then you have the slightly darker, lighter color. and those are 500 to 1 billion. and i do, joe, you might be interested in this. want to point out one specific district, which is florida, one right here, which is getting 500 million to $1 billion of this money back into their district.

>> so, steve, let's turn to a different topic now. we had new york governor kathy hochul on the show yesterday, making a passionate defense of new york city's new congestion pricing plan. we know, though, that president trump and the trump administration have looked to kill it. it's now going to be in the courts. the governor has not abided by what the white house wants to this point. so tell us here who's right. is congestion pricing working? >> well, first, let's frame this on a slightly broader context, because here you have a republican government which says that they believe in local control and states rights. the federal government should not interfere locally. in fact, hud just the other day is repealing some regulations from the biden administration aimed at influencing zoning and communities. and now they're turning around and diving into the new york congestion pricing. what this has to do with washington, i have no idea. but more importantly, as the governor said, i'm going to show you the numbers. it is, in fact, working. so it's only been a month or so. but what have we

seen? we've seen a drop of 8 to 12% in the number of vehicles entering this zone. below 60th street in manhattan. we've seen a drop in half of traffic injuries. we've seen transit ridership on the mta and metro north rise by 7 to 10%. we've still seen people coming into the zone, so it's not like broadway was very worried about people not coming. individual visits by people in the zone is actually up. school bus arrivals are down. and equally importantly, it has generated $50 million in just a month for transit improvements in the city of new york. and so that obviously, over the course of a year, could be as much as, say, $600 million each year. and then you look at travel times, i don't know if some gremlin put these green arrows and ignore those, but basically, if you look at all the ways into new york, holland tunnel from new jersey down by more than half, williamsburg bridge from brooklyn down by about 30%, queensboro bridge from queens, down by about a half, lincoln

tunnel more than half, and so on. and i can tell you i've noticed it, too, as a significant drop in traffic in new york, which means less pollution. it means fewer cars. it is it is one of the best things that's happened in new york in a long time. the governor deserves a big shout out for putting this in place in face of a lot of opposition from commuters from new jersey and all kinds of people. but she did the right thing. and why the administration feels that this is somehow worthy of their attention at all, let alone to fight it, is beyond me. >> yeah. and governor hochul, as john said, was here yesterday describing her meeting a week ago today at the white house with president trump. she had those very charts, almost to make the case for congestion pricing. and you're right, just anecdotally, talking to people who drive cabs and ubers, people who commute in from new jersey or long island, they say it is improved. the traffic is vastly improved. they don't like paying the toll. who would? but it's doing its job so far. morning joe economic analyst steve rattner with some important numbers this morning. steve,

thanks so much. coming up, we will break down a federal judge's ruling on the trump administration's mass firings of government workers. plus, what senate republicans are asking of elon musk as his department of government efficiency goes after even more federal agencies. morning joe is coming right back. >> perisic like we play. >> sadly windshield chips can turn into windshield cracks. >> but at least you. >> can go to safe flight.com. >> and. >> schedule a fix in minutes. sweet safe flight can come to you for. >> free, and our highly trained techs can. >> replace your windshield. >> right at your home. >> the flight. >> safe flight. >> don't wait. go to safe flight.com and schedule now. >> safelite repair. >> safelite replace. >> my eyes. >> they're dry. >> uncomfortable. >> looking for extra hydration.

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>> washington post owner and amazon founder jeff bezos, of

course, announced a major shift in the paper's opinion section in a social media post. of course, you all saw this. the tech mogul outlined dramatic changes that would focus on personal liberties and free markets. still not sure exactly what personal liberties are defined by in his mind, and won't publish anything that opposes those ideas. the billionaire also revealed he offered the corrections editor, david shipley, a chance to continue in this new chapter, but shipley decided to step away. he's been running the section since 2022. let's bring in talk about this and much more. pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of the washington post, eugene robinson. gene, let's just i'm curious what your thought is. you have been connected with the washington post, pulitzer prize winner. you've had pulitzer prize winners leave the post over the past several months. and it continues. i'm just curious what your thought is about this directive coming down for a newspaper whose tough

questions literally redefined modern journalism in america over the past half century? >> well. >> it's a very good question. >> first of all, joe, you know as much about this as i do in terms of what this you know what exactly jeff means. it's not as if we publish a whole lot of pieces or in fact, any pieces that oppose free markets and personal liberties. right? we don't we? i cannot recall this ever publishing a piece with the headline the joy of socialism. that's that's not us. so. so what does this mean? because he describes it as a significant shift. you know, what was intolerable to david shipley and is intolerable to a lot of us,

frankly, is this idea that we're going to be we're going to be channeled, that there will be some views, who knows what they are that will no longer be published in the washington post's opinion pages that are off limits. and that is not the way we've ever functioned. that is not the tradition of the page under david shipley, under his predecessors, fred hiatt and meg greenfield, going back the entire time i've been at the washington post. and just to be very frank, i mean, for many of us, this is as, to quote elon musk, this is a fork in the road moment because the these kinds of strictures, whatever they turn out to be, are, are not

what we thought we had signed up for. this is not the way we have worked to produce what is, i believe, objectively, the best opinion section in american journalism. and i would i would defend that. and i think it's a i think it's a mistake journalistically. i think it's a mistake as a business proposition. but, you know, it leaves us with with choices and decisions to make about about our futures. >> you know. and what's so surprising to me, gene, is, again, we're trying to sort through everybody's trying to sort through exactly what that statement means. i'm shocked that you as a columnist on that page, a pulitzer prize winner, doesn't sound like you have any more insight into what those limitations are. potential limitations might be. >> yeah, right. i have

absolutely no more insight into that. we have we have heard nothing from jeff beyond the statement that he put out on x and to the staff on wednesday morning at 9 a.m, we staff had a meeting with david shipley, but he was you know, i'm not going to discuss a private meeting with with staff, but i will say that i was not further enlightened as to exactly what this means, and nor have we heard anything more from our publisher, will lewis, who also issued a statement to the staff, essentially saying, you know. yeah, what what what jeff said, this is what we're doing, but we don't know what what is. >> what that means. yeah. mike allen certainly it seems bizarre to many observers, especially

people who have worked for the washington post and who love it so much, your partner, jim vandehei, said yesterday that he, you know, he's been confused by five years of decisions that that have been made at the washington post, and it has been seemingly going, going in circles while losing readership. pull, pull back and tell us what how this gives us a better light on the entire media landscape, especially when you have conglomerates, when you have multinational corporations who decide to pick up a newspaper as a bit of a rounding error, we played a clip out of network, that famous, iconic ned beatty scene where he's the head of a conglomeration lecturing anchor who didn't take the lecturing very well. i'm just where are we right now with, with, especially with these conglomerates that that that have media outlets

that are institutions but are basically a rounding error on their balance sheet? >> no, joe. >> that's exactly right. and lots. >> of. your viewers. >> run things. so your viewers run teams, run organizations, run companies run nations. and if you run something, a superpower is clarity. knowing what. >> your. >> thing is, knowing what. your mission is, knowing what your higher purpose is. and that's what seems to be totally missing from the washington post and is missing across so much of the media landscape. jim and i have written about the shards of glass that the media ecosystem basically fractured, and now you have so many. >> of. >> these different shards, all. >> of them. >> unconnected, disconnected. >> and so these. >> legacy organizations that are trying to find their way in that new universe seem totally lost.

and this is why jim said yesterday on the show, of the. many things we don't understand about what's going on at the washington post, and i'm a proud alumnus. i started on the metro desk covering the alexandria city council. i'm a customer. i get it at my door in arlington, virginia. to this day, we don't understand how they're communicating with their staff, with their readership. and this is a big message about communication for all. >> your. >> viewers that when the communication is unclear and foggy confusing, that's often downstream from an unclear, foggy strategy thinking. >> jane, can i just ask you a practical question? and we're talking to marty baron about this yesterday, which is for you and for your colleagues in the opinion section. what does this mean for you when you sit down to write a column today, for example, you're writing about elon musk and a rebellion that he has created within the trump administration already among some cabinet officials. does that fit into personal liberties

and free markets? in other words, is your job changing? >> i look, i wrote that column earlier this week before this, before this dropped. so i have literally no idea. i don't know who's going to run be running the section after today. today is david shipley's last day. as of last night, as of the last time i checked my phone, we had not been informed what any sort of interim arrangement is for running the opinion section, so i have no idea. and let me put one other thing out there, because we like to keep it real on morning joe. i mean, many readers are taking this this move by jeff as another step in a process of trying to get on the right side of donald trump, of, of, of essentially shifting our page to the right in order

to curry favor with trump. i believe jeff would deny that that is the case. i and i don't haven't talked with him so but i'm confident he would deny that is the case. but i will i should say that that there are many readers who are taking it that way. >> well, let me just pick up the baton there, because any sober minded observer would know that he's trying to get in with donald trump. he showed up at his inauguration. he gave $1 million to it. reports now that he was pitching trump privately on doug burgum as a vp choice, a publisher of a newspaper, back channeling to a presidential candidate. pitching a vp choice is a look. and i would just say again, i love the institution of the post. i think you guys are doing incredible work under incredibly difficult circumstances. he's doing you no favors, but i would just say that it is harming the

reputation. and i wonder if, as you talk to your colleagues, not just on the opinion side, but on the news side, do they feel like their publisher has hurt them professionally, in their capacity to go about and present the best work product which they are doing to this day? they are doing some of the best reporting out there on the federal workforce, on the trump administration, regardless of what bezos has done. but do they feel like their publisher has harmed them in their professional pursuits? >> well, yes and no. yes. in that look, recently, you know, what an exodus we've had of some of the some of our best reporters that in, in and of itself diminishes capacity, hurts our ability to, to, to cover the news. it's not something you can't over time recover from. but that that hurts us. you step back. for ten

years he's owned a jeff has owned the paper for more than 11 years. for ten years he was a model newspaper owner. what i would consider a model newspaper owner. he invested not just money, but ideas and technology in in the paper. he let he let us grow. he let us really survive. before, before he bought the paper. i mean, we were on a on a decline, a gradual decline. he ended that and sent us on a different path. now, this is a this is a turn and this is not a positive turn. and like i said, for a lot of people at the paper, it's a fork in the road. >> washington post, eugene robinson, and we will be reading you and the indispensable reporting of your newspaper. we appreciate you being here this morning, gene. thanks so much. also, co-founder of axios, mike

allen and managing editor at the bulwark, sam stein. thank you both as well. still ahead this morning, just hours from now, ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy will meet with president trump in washington to sign a minerals deal between the two countries. we'll speak with democratic senator adam schiff about that. also ahead, golden globe nominated actor jason isaacs will be live in our studio to discuss season three of the hit show the white lotus. morning joe is coming right morning joe is coming right back. ever feel like a spectator in your own life with chronic migraine? 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. in a survey, 91% of users wish they'd started sooner. so why wait? talk to your doctor. botox® effects may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away as trouble swallowing,

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take my hand. darling. >> one thing. >> that continues to make consumers anxious is the high price of breakfast. and with bird. >> flu, there's no end in sight. >> according to experts, egg prices could jump 41%, meaning this year's easter egg hunt is going to be the purge. it's getting so expensive. this is true that here in new york, some bodegas. >> are. >> selling individual eggs known as. >> lucy eggs. >> to customers who can't afford full cartons. >> yum. >> loose eggs. and if you if you. >> can't afford. >> those, there's a guy in the alley in the back. i got jumbo whites. i got cage free organic brown. i got a couple double yolks and crack.

>> okay. >> it's. >> so i. >> mean, it's. just it's just a cracked egg, but you can smoke it. >> you don't want the lucy's. welcome back to morning joe. it's friday, february 28th. jonathan lemire susan page still with us. and joining the conversation this hour, the host of way too early, ali vitale, professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr, senior writer for the dispatch, david drucker and politics reporter for semafor dave weigel, good morning to you all. let's dive right in this hour as a federal judge now says, the trump administration's mass firings of federal employees is likely illegal and should be stopped. the judge has ordered the office of personnel management to rescind a memo that directed layoffs for thousands of probationary employees across two dozen government agencies. the move is a temporary win for labor unions and organizations that have sued to block the administration's sweeping layoffs. while the ruling does not reinstate

employees who have already been fired, it puts a pause on future layoffs, a significant roadblock for the trump white house. meanwhile, thousands of usaid employees who have been fired or placed on leave packed up their belongings from the now closed headquarters yesterday. workers were given 15 minute windows to clear out their desks as the trump administration's dismantling of the agency moves into its final stages. some staffers seen weeping as they carried out bags and boxes of personal items from their time in public service. but as they left, they were met by hundreds of supporters who gathered outside with signs and messages of appreciation, including you and your mission mattered, joe. >> it's really it is sad when you see especially what's happening with usaid and programs that have saved tens of millions of lives across the world and also, of course,

increases america's soft power and makes us stronger by making the world healthier. i guess that's a concept republicans don't understand in 2025. it's very unfortunate and i believe, at least shortsighted. dave weigel, though, let's talk about doge in general. let's talk about elon musk at cpac with a chainsaw. your piece today reminds me of what i started to tell people who worked on my campaigns when i was in congress, because we would always start the campaign, obviously a year before election day. and it took me, you know, about a cycle to figure out. i would go to him and i'd say, what we do today, we are going to be running in 32nd spots the last week of the campaign. so look through that lens, get the message, get the visuals, etc, etc. your piece today basically says, what's happening now is

already defining what's going to be happening in elections in 2017 and most likely in 2018. and i guess in 2017, we have we have virginia, we've got new jersey, we've got some races, local races in the philly suburbs that always are are bellwethers talk about talk about your piece and how what we're already seeing early in this administration is going to define the outlines of the elections coming up. >> right. >> we don't have that many. >> races this year, but the marquee race. in the first year of a presidency has been for a while, the race for governor of virginia, the race for the house of delegates, attorney general, lieutenant governor, one of the worst places in the country to run on firing federal workers for various and overlapping reasons. the story this week was based on glenn youngkin coming out and putting out a website for federal workers, and

encouraging federal workers who are going through disruptions and other euphemisms to find work in the private sector. the website linked out to linkedin and just mentioned some companies that existed in different regions of the state. it was put together pretty quickly. it was not very convincing to democrats, not just against doge, but very confident in the state with 145,000 federal employees, with many more people whose businesses rely on federal workers coming to spend money at them, or family members benefiting from their from their spouses salaries. this is this has been a nightmare for republicans in virginia. and their answer has been, don't worry, the private. you're going to find something else to do. and so i talked to abigail spanberger, the democrat running for governor. it's not that they are gloating, and they're they're counting the votes already on this. they're just very comfortable saying we are the party of a federal government that works, that employs lots of people, that has reliable union jobs, that can keep you employed for your entire career, and the other party wants to throw you into

the private sector with a lot of risk and with no real plan. it's a huge gulf between the parties. really bad for republicans right now in virginia. you can already see them this week trying to turn attention to cultural issues, trying to turn attention to gender and sports, because talking about the value of firing all these federal workers is not a winner in virginia. >> certainly. that's something that i saw. it's not something that just spanberger is saying. i spent time at a town hall in virginia last night, and that is exactly what other virginia lawmakers are trying to make the point of. they see the chaos in washington. it is hitting them right at their front doorsteps. but look, many federal workers and medicaid recipients are expressing fear and concern at town halls across the country, not just in virginia. it's over those recent cuts and others, but a number of democratic voters are demanding more action from their elected leaders, too, especially when it comes to confronting elon musk. i was up late last night, you could say, way too late, and attended one of those town halls at a high school in virginia's 10th congressional district, currently represented by democrat suhas subramanyam.

about 200 residents gathered there to ask multiple versions of essentially the same question, what is going on in washington? >> the email that came out wanting us to justify our jobs with five things we did last week was on saturday night, and i was literally working on saturday night to make up for all the distractions i had had the previous week, which came from the executive branch. and so i'm working, trying to catch up on things, and then i get that email on top of it. it's very hard to keep your train of thought when you're getting threatened and harassed like that. >> i mean, everyone is on pins and needles. there are tenured professionals that are, you know, maybe within months of retirement, but, you know, they they're trying to stick it out for everyone else and be brave. and the jobs that we do, i support the defense department and the jobs that we do are so stressful. and to have this on top of it, i mean, i know that that's their goal is to make it

miserable. so the people that are staying and fighting, i, i just can't thank them enough. >> how does that. >> feel like how does it feel your. sense of service for you personally? i'm devastated. i'm devastated. i'm i feel so bad for my colleagues. and don't forget about my colleagues that are overseas and they don't even know how they're getting home and they're just being terminated. they're just being shown the door. and wherever they land, that's that's all. that's it. i mean, i'm taking a very big risk by being interviewed, but at this point, you have to stand up and you have to talk and you have to take a stand. >> is there. >> any amount of enough that would be good enough from democrats on the hill? >> what do you mean by enough? what could they do that would feel sufficient? i don't feel enough. i feel like what they're doing is sending out these text messages, you know, saying, oh

my god, we've got to do x, because this is happening. i, i'm retired. i can't throw money unless i know what the money is going to be used for. i think rather than throwing money, it seems like the entire democratic campaign was run that way. and i think what we need to do is to say, here's what we're doing. >> some absolutely fascinating insights from people that were at that town hall meeting last night. there was one line that stuck out to me, where one of one of the federal workers said to you, i know their goal is to make us miserable. that actually that's a perfect i mean, that that reflects exactly what the current omb director, russell vought, wrote or said last fall, which is our goal basically, is to traumatize these people and make them think that everybody

hates them so they won't want to show up to work. he said that that's the intended goal. and it is interesting that these federal workers are actually just echoing what he wrote last fall, that that that the intended effort to traumatize these federal workers and make them afraid to go to work seems to be working. >> message fully received. and it's something that i heard from them, not just in the way that they talk about the environment in their workplace, but also you and i have all been to enough of these events. you bring a camera, people get a little nervous. they say, oh, i don't want to talk on camera. the reason was different this time when i was approaching these federal workers who in some cases had been fired in other cases, know that today is friday, and they assumed they'd probably be laid off today. there is such anxiety and concern about their own financial well-being, their own ability also to continue serving the american public. so that's

definitely a palpable concern that i heard the anxiety. one woman that we even heard from there told me she called her doctor to get on anti-anxiety medication because the harassment and the barrage of emails has been so aggressive. but i would also put a note here, that last constituent that we heard from there, there's potential for this to harm republicans for the reasons that we've talked about. but there's also a potential problem here for democrats that i picked up on the fact that constituents are coming to these town halls begging them to do something, but they don't necessarily have the ability to potentially do enough. this is a frustration, susan, that i have heard consistently. so, yes, democrats could have a problem here, but republicans also seem to be recognizing it because gop senators met yesterday with musk and basically said, please give us some way to talk to you about what you're doing here. >> yeah, lots more risk for the republicans ahead, though with this administration. is going to do because we see no indication that they are not going to continue with big layoffs, efforts to reduce the federal workforce. in fact, even the

judge's decision yesterday, which is seen as encouraging, is temporary. it said opm didn't have the right to fire it. it didn't say that nobody had the right to fire them. so they are still in some peril. but there is enormous frustration with democrats who have no power base left in washington and who do not yet have a unified voice. and i think one place we're going to see this, where the rubber hits the road, is on the debate over a government shutdown in the middle of this month on march 14th. do democrats want the government to shut down on the theory that the republicans will be blamed, or do they want to keep the government open? because that avoids one more shock to a workforce that they say they are trying to protect. >> so, eddie, obviously democrats lost in november and democrats are trying to pick up the pieces now, but it seems like assigning blame to them here is misguided. this is this is elon musk empowered by donald trump, just taking a literal chainsaw to government. and we have seen other republicans sort of now begin to see sense the

feel a sense of alarm, their constituents upset by what's going on, trying to talk to trump, trying to talk to musk. to this point, the president has offered nothing but support for the doge head. how do you see this? this is fundamentally changing americans relationship with government. and now as these cuts are being felt, including, let's be clear, among in red states, among trump voters, you know, where do you see this going next? >> well. >> i think, you know, in assigning blame, you're right, i think in this regard. but i think people want folks to fight. they want to fight for what are your values? what are you fighting for? are you fighting for us? and i think that that's that's legitimate. that's a legitimate concern. look, i think i'm also worried about the fact that, you know, only when it hurts you. are you now concerned you were okay with certain policies that would hurt other communities now that has come home to roost? most people are are angry. i so i want to i want to tap that selfishness at the root of that perhaps. but i think there are two things that i want to say really quickly. one, of course, we have to be

mindful of the human cost. people have been talking about efficiency and waste and big government and the like. we're seeing the human cost here, that families are struggling. people have to pay mortgages. they have to send their kids to college. they're worried about how they're going to put food on the table, expensive food on the table. and folks are just kind of with the chainsaw cutting. but also we've got to widen the aperture. what is the conversation about our obligations to each other? i don't know what the social good is in this country. i don't know what the baseline obligations americans have to each other and how government represents that. we've shredded the social safety net since the 1980s. right. what are our obligations to our elderly? what are our obligations to the poor? what's the role of government in ensuring that these baseline values are evidenced in our relationship to each other? and as we are engaging in this kind of, shall we say, bull in a china shop approach to federal government, there's no conversation about who we are as americans and how the federal government represents those values. >> yeah, and it seems to me that

on some of the issues, you actually do have some democratic leaders that don't want to talk about some of the extraordinary things the united states has done. and yes, i will go there. u.s. aid u.s. aid does. aid does so much for not only people all across the world, but also for america's own self interest. so this whole idea, we're not going to give any money out in foreign aid anymore. and it's such a small percentage of the budget, but it pays us back in so many ways. is, is just is extraordinary. david drucker, an interesting thing happened yesterday. i say interesting because it's something that people like scott galloway and yes, i will say myself have been saying democratic leaders have had to do for a very long time. it's been a concern for several years, and scott always talks about it. again, i talk about it this show, we've talked about it. young men have been falling

further and further behind. yesterday, gretchen whitmer gave a speech and is going to sign an executive order that that talks about doing more to help with the disparities that are occurring with young men. and she said this, my message tonight goes out to young people, but especially to young men. i know it's hard to get ahead right now, but i promise you, no matter how hard life might get, there's always a way out and a way up. the last thing any of us want is a generation of young men falling behind their fathers and grandfathers. i've heard most about this issue from moms who love their sons and are worried about them. and then she goes on and she lays out all the disparities for young men getting jobs, young men in college versus women. this goes on and on. you've written a piece talking about how this is, in fact, just as scott galloway and many others predicted, this is a reality

that democrats have ignored for too long. according to young men who again broke pretty hard to for donald trump in this last election. talk about what you found. yeah, it's very interesting, joe. >> you know, for people our age, sometimes we may look at the complaints coming from young men and we may dismiss them. maybe not everybody does, but some of us might because we all remember growing up not always having enough money or not always getting the girl or not always. getting the job we want. but as i learned from talking to democrats as well as demographic specialists and others who have been talking to young men over the past couple of years, and we're talking now, you know, young men from ages 18 to 29, but particularly 18 to 24, who were particularly impacted by the pandemic. these young men have experienced just a much different world than we did. right. so if you came up in the late 60s, 70s 80 and 90, there

was a sense of possibility, no matter what your difficulties were, if you came up in the 21st century, you have the 911 terrorist attacks, you have the great recession, and then you have the coronavirus pandemic. and all of that has left men feeling as though they cannot do as well as their parents did as their fathers did. and then there's this extra little thing here. and, you know, i spoke to richard reeves, who runs the american institution for men and boys, and he talked about just this little fact that right around 2015, 2016 is when the term toxic masculinity entered the lexicon. now, you know, this this can be a politically charged term. i know a lot of people have opinions about this, but what this sort of has added up to for many men is this idea that they can't just be men, be boys, joke around, not be misogynist, not be rude, but just be masculine that there is something inherently wrong with them because of just who they are. and donald trump and j.d.

vance both spoke to that in a particular way, in part because of who they are and in part because of how trump acts. but the message received by these men was simply, it's okay to be who you are. there's nothing wrong with you for doing that. and that is always a huge political winner. and that's why there was such a jump in support for trump among young, young men compared to 2020 and in fact, compared to all democratic presidential nominees, at least going back to the beginning of the century. and democrats i spoke to are concerned about it. not all of them, but many of them. and they say the party needs to do something about this to be more competitive in 2028, in part because young men become old men. and your politics that is formed in your 20s often can last for decades, if not the rest of your life. >> yeah, you know what? what? sam stein, what? what? oh, we don't have sam. sam! sam's out. sam's out on a on a on a coffee

break. you know what? what? dave drucker? what what we've talked about here. and again, scott galloway has talked about it. others have talked about it. i've talked about it with with other people on the show, and i've talked about it with, with people off camera is the fact that there is toxic masculinity. there is andrew tate, who again, for some bizarre reason, is in the united states now, but so many parents have said that, that they they saw their sons going to school, even, you know, you know, private schools, public schools over the past seven, eight, nine, ten years. and, and having teachers basically talking about collective guilt against them because they were boys. and it sounds bizarre, but that has been a reality. >> it has i have i have two boys. i have more than three

nephews. what do i have? four nephews. this is something that we've all talked about. and look, there are jerks, right? there are people that are just beyond the pale. but that doesn't mean that all men are. and i think as a matter of politics, the point here is if you tell a particular group that you want to appeal to, that they're wrong simply for being who they are, let alone if they're wrong at all. it's really hard to win their support. and so, you know, i think i think this can be hard. and when i was talking to people for the story, they said it can be hard for democrats to wrap their arms around because obviously, for most of human history, men have had it okay compared to everybody else. right. i've got nothing to complain about just because. because i'm a dude. but yeah, anywhere from 18 to 29 years old, you just feel differently about that. >> yeah. and that's why it's easy. like you like me, when you first hear this, you kind of go,

yeah, we're doing fine, don't worry about it. and then it actually becomes a political thing because. it's not addressed. it's being addressed again now in michigan by by governor whitmer. she's talking about it. and this goes across all demographic groups and is something the democrats are going to have to figure out how to get their arms around. senior writer for the dispatch, david drucker and political reporter for semafor dave weigel. thank you so much. also, washington bureau chief at usa today, susan page, thank you all so much. i feel like we need to get scott galloway and others on and have this discussion again. it's fascinating, especially when you look again, what governor whitmer and other democratic leaders are doing. still ahead on morning joe, our next guest says, quote, america has a rogue president, the former secretary of the air force under president biden is going to join us to explain his new piece for the new york times. and before we go to break, willie, what do you have planned for sunday today? >> got a good one for you this

weekend, joe the great angela bassett is my guest on sunday. today she plays the president of the united states in that new show everyone's talking about, zero day on netflix, created by our friend noah oppenheim and starring robert de niro. it traces the aftermath of a cyber attack in this country. what might happen given our government, given our fractured media? also talk about her role as the queen in the black panther. she has had an incredible career, so wise, so smart, so fun to talk with angela bassett coming up this weekend. over on nbc sunday today. and we'll be right back today. and we'll be right back here on a friday morning it all started with a small business idea. it's a pillow with a speaker in it! that's right craig. pulling in the perfect team to get the job done. i'm just here for the internets. at&t, it's super-fast! you locked us out?! and when thrown a curveball... arrggghh! ahhhh! [crashing sounds] we had everything we needed. is the internet out?

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healthiness again. >> get 50%. >> off your. >> first box. >> at. ali com. >> beautiful live picture on a sunny morning at the united states capitol. coming up on 7:30 a.m, defense secretary pete hegseth recent firing of the top lawyers for the army, navy and air force causing alarm among some in the military community. the three lawyers fired are known as judge advocate general, or jag. serve in their roles not to give military orders, but to provide legal counsel to military commanders at all levels. joining us now, the former secretary of the air force, frank kendall. he served in that role from 2021 until january of this year. he's got a new piece in the new york times about president trump's recent high level military firings, titled america has a rogue president. mr. secretary, thank

you for joining us again. i want to get right into your piece. you explain why you find the trump administration's removal of the military's top jag so disturbing. in it, you write this quote, this is part of a much larger pattern of disrespect, even disdain for the rule of law. we do not need jag leaders who fit this pattern. our country is in uncharted territory. we have an administration that is waging war against the rule of law. the evidence is everywhere. we don't yet know how far it will go as it seeks to control, reinterpret, rewrite, ignore, or defy legal constraints, including the constitution itself. the replacement of the military jag leadership is one skirmish in that war. but it's time for the american people across the political spectrum to recognize what is happening. america has a rogue president and a rogue administration, and we need to acknowledge that and respond. mr. secretary, we had independent senator angus king on this show yesterday sitting in the very seat you're sitting

in right now, basically giving the same message, but to his colleagues in congress saying it's time to wake up and see what's happening right in front of our eyes. so what is your warning to the military and to the country this morning? >> well. senator king. >> is a. >> good. >> friend. >> and i'm sure we see this the same way. the constitution calls for the president to take care that the laws be faithfully executed. that's a fundamental responsibility. and what we're seeing in this case is a president who is taking every opportunity to try to reinterpret the law or defy the law in some cases, in order to accomplish his goals. i think that's very disturbing. and when i saw that the jag officers were being relieved, along with the other senior people, all of whom i know and all of whom are very fine professional officers, i was disturbed by that, and i don't think people recognized originally what the implications of that would be. but these are the senior military professionals who are lawyers, who provide legal opinions about whether orders are lawful or not, and to remove all of them

and put in there someone who is, i think. say it nicely. more flexible, i think, is a dangerous move. >> we've heard hegseth, of course, to be critical of those jag officers, calling them jag offs during the confirmation process. but when you say recognize what's happening and respond, we're doing the recognizing piece, talking about it here. what's the response? >> i think americans all need to understand what is happening here across the political spectrum. and let people know that this is unacceptable. we all have a right or an obligation as citizens to pay attention to what's happening in our government. president trump has demonstrated that he will respond to the weight of public opinion. if it's expressed clearly enough. the in the in the legislature, the republicans at least are not really taking any action. the democrats have no power. but if there is a clearer demonstration by the american people of their views on this and the importance of our democracy and the importance of the rule of law to them, that i think there will be a response

to that. >> secretary, secretary kendall, this is eddie glaude. talk a little bit about your relationship with general cq brown and the meaning of his removal, as well as adm. admiral franchetti and general slife. i mean, what does this suggest to you about the current approach with regards to the military and diversity. >> that's concerning to you? it's essentially a politicization of the military in a way i've never seen. the president has the authority to remove officers and replace them. these were all removed without cause. they didn't do anything wrong. there wasn't any question about their judgment. i've never seen this before. the administrations changed, and military professionals provide some continuity in normal course of events. and that's of value. they have a lot of experience. all of these officers and i do know the mall. i know general brown the best are very, very highly capable people. they've risen to the top of their profession. they've been chosen because of their maturity, their judgment, their capabilities. and there was no reason to remove them other than apparently to put people in to

be more compliant. >> so, sir, let's talk about the future of the military here. as you see this president put in seemingly, you know, loyalists in top positions, you know, in terms of the joint, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff elevating someone who was spoken favorably of him, bypassing dozens of more senior officers in order to do so. what is your concern about what could be next? what this president might try to use the military for? >> i can't speculate on that. i think there are, you know, you saw attempts in the first administration to use the military to put down protests. for example, general milley quite famously refused to do that at one point. i think for the president in his first term. so i don't know exactly what circumstances might give rise to a misuse or an illegal use of the military. we are seeing evidence that the president wants to put more troops on the border and use them for border security. that's not a traditional use of our military. that's not what they're really trained to do. so there are any

number of possibilities, i think, that we might, might be concerned about. >> mr. secretary, can you speak more broadly to the state of the military, the united states military, as you see it today? obviously, the entire rationale for secretary hegseth, as he went through the confirmation process and part of why he earned the attention of president trump was by calling the military woke and weak, and that he had to come in and just clean up the culture. is that the military? you know? >> no, our military is very, very professional. it doesn't change because of political leadership changes. it goes through very smoothly, transitions from one party to another. the banning of the diversity training and so on will take about five minutes. nobody was promoted because they weren't qualified or just because of their gender or their race. we have an incredibly professional military full of very dedicated public servants who will do their duty. for anybody who's in the in the chain of command, whatever party that is and so on, i there is

there is no concern for the american people to be worried about the wokeness, whatever that is, quite frankly, of our military. it's a very professional force. >> spoken by a man who has spent his life in service of the country, in the military, and we're grateful for that. we'll read the new piece online. everyone can read it. in the new york times, former air force secretary, retired u.s. army reserve lieutenant colonel frank kendall. sir, thank you for your time and again. thank you for your service. we appreciate you. >> thank you. thanks for having me on. >> coming up, an update on that measles outbreak now hitting more states across the country. plus a conversation about the rise of mass incarceration in america and how the supreme court has played a role. that's straight ahead. on morning joe. work, play. blink. relief. work. play. blink. relief. play. blink. relief. >> the only 3 in 1 (husband) we just want to have enough money for retirement. (wife) and travel to visit our grandchildren. (fisher investments) i understand. that's why at fisher investments

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hosted by jen psaki. each week, she. >> talks to some of the biggest names in democratic politics, with the biggest ideas for how democrats can win again. the blueprint with jen psaki. listen now. >> welcome back to morning joe. the united states has less than 5% of the world's population, but has more than 20% of the world's prisoners. that's according to the aclu. and one influential legal scholar argues that the supreme court has played a key role in the rise of mass incarceration in america. author rachel barkow makes her case in the new book justice abandoned. and rachel joins us now. she is a professor of law at nyu. professor, thank you so much for being here this morning. this is a certainly an original argument. talk to us a little bit about its foundations. >> sure. so i mean, most people, i think. >> realize that. >> politics produces the impetus

for. >> mass incarceration. >> you know, people clamor for tougher sentences. and i think what people forget is we have constitutional checks on the public going too far. and the problem has been. >> the supreme court. >> has been asleep at the wheel a little bit and hasn't enforced them. and i go through a series of cases. had they been decided differently, i don't think we would see. incarceration run amok to the same extent. >> so for how long has this phenomenon occurred? these cases you talk about how how recent are they? do some go back decades? >> no. well, yeah, they do go back decades. so i you know, it starts. with the nixon administration and moves forward from there. and basically the whole period before that, america looked entirely different. and one of the things the supreme court does is allow the constitution to be radically altered to allow mass incarceration to occur. >> so this is i'm so excited about the book. and but, you know, you rightly note the social and political context. so i'm thinking about the omnibus omnibus crime bill of 1968, thinking about, of course, all the tough on crime laws that

follow. how deeply is the response and the reaction to the social revolutions of the mid 20th century to the realities of race driving this story? right. i mean, not only just the legal, the juridical considerations, but the social realities are what's driving this story in some ways. >> yeah. that's central. i mean, that is absolutely central. >> i mean, it's true that. >> we do get a rise in crime at the end of the 1960s and 70s, but we also have a lot of what. civil unrest or we have people clamoring for their rights. and the country is undergoing. protests and sometimes. >> they turn to riots. >> and so when the supreme. >> court starts. >> considering some of these cases, it looks like the country is in tumult. and i think you do see a backlash to that. the idea that, well, we need to let the police do more. we need to let the government do more to have things be more stabilized. >> so it's an originalist argument, right? it's an interesting sort of way. and we wouldn't take ordinarily think

of an originalist claim serving these sorts of purposes. and that's the first kind of i would love you to address that. and then the second question, or maybe the last one, i suppose, for me would be, well, what do you think about the supreme court's role in this now, given the way the court's constitution? >> yeah. so i do think it's interesting that if you woke the framers up and you plop them down, there'd be a lot of things they'd be horrified about today. but one of them would be the police state the ability of the police to stop and frisk people without probable cause, the idea you could be detained when you hadn't been found guilty of anything. all of that contradicts all the original meaning of the constitution. so? so part of what i do argue is that none of these things would be acceptable if you were an original originalist and you looked at the text of the constitution, but, you know, they're also bad policy. they're bad for liberty, they're bad for equality. and so i tried to pick the cases that fail on on every measure. you know, the question is whether this court is going to be true to its originalist methodology when it's faced with

a series of cases where the outcome would be more liberal as opposed to conservative. >> all right. the fascinating new book is titled justice abandoned how the supreme court ignored the constitution and enabled mass incarceration. it goes on sale tuesday, but you can preorder it right now. we encourage you to do so. author. rachel. rachel, thank you so much for joining us this morning. still ahead here on morning joe, we'll bring you the latest on the mysterious deaths of gene hackman and his wife at their home in new mexico. plus, we'll explain why the trump administration's much hyped release of the epstein files ended up drawing criticism from both sides of the political spectrum. also, a bus driver in ohio is being called a hero after saving students when the vehicle went up in flames. look at that terrifying image. morning, joe. coming right back.

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coast. health care providers are preaching the importance of vaccinations again this morning amid a fast-moving measles outbreak in texas and other parts of the country. nbc news correspondent sam brock has the latest. >> u.s. health. >> officials may have. >> declared measles. >> eliminated 25. >> years ago, but. >> there's a furious race. >> this morning to contain a new spread. >> ten states. >> have now reported. >> cases. >> most of them in texas. new jersey. >> just. >> announced it has. >> three infections. >> all of. >> them related to one person's. >> travel abroad, with the virus then spreading to two household contacts. >> all three. >> were unvaccinated. >> it is a highly. contagious disease. >> new jersey's health commissioner telling us when it comes to the measles vaccine, it's better late than never. >> if somebody. >> was. not vaccinated. >> and. >> they came. >> in contact. >> with measles. >> it's. >> important to. >> know right away because if we get. >> them vaccinated. >> within 72 hours. >> it could help. >> the most recent infections have been reported in washington state and kentucky. the worst spread in western texas, where

there are more than 120 cases, including 20 plus hospitalizations. all children, one of whom has died. aruna mahajan in lubbock, texas, is racing to get her young daughter vaccinated. >> i got measles. >> as a kid. >> because. >> there was no vaccine. there was no availability. but here in america, it's free and accessible. and yet people choose to, you know, ignore it. >> many pediatricians, like doctor tim jacks of arizona, pleading with parents to vaccinate their children. his daughter was exposed when she was two years old while receiving cancer treatments. >> it definitely affects more than just. >> them. >> you know, and it's. >> affecting the families around them, the families in the school, the, you know, the kids that are immunosuppressed. >> or. >> that are too young to be immunized. >> the rising risk coming against an explosion of misinformation with health and human services secretary robert kennedy jr recently making several assertions about the texas cases that had to be corrected by local doctors. health experts want parents to

trust the science. >> i will tell you. >> again. >> vaccines are. >> safe and effective. this is not up for debate. >> nbc's sam brock reporting there. meanwhile, the new york post editorial board is challenging health and human services secretary robert f kennedy jr to publicly travel to texas to inform the public that vaccines are safe. the new york post, of course, owned by rupert murdoch, has gone hard after secretary kennedy, a school bus driver in ohio, is being praised this morning for taking swift action to save his students after a fire broke out on board. nbc news correspondent maggie vespa has details. >> the heart stopping video of a near tragedy in ohio. >> this is going to be a bus vehicle on fire. unsure if. >> it is occupied. >> showing massive flames and black smoke engulfing a cleveland heights school bus during its morning run to a local middle school. the district confirming there were

15 students on board. >> every child is accounted for. >> every child is off the bus. >> firefighters hailing the bus's driver for acting quickly and getting everyone out safely. >> it's just a blessing that the kids got out alive. >> witnesses saying they heard a loud explosion. >> i saw the girl waiting for the bus. >> 2 to 3. >> minutes later, i heard. >> a big boom. >> city officials telling nbc news the fire appears to have been caused by a mechanical issue, with the superintendent saying in a letter to parents. flames broke out behind one of the rear wheels. the exact cause is under investigation. >> after about. >> five minutes, it was all engulfed. >> in flames and it was just unbelievable. >> this report from ohio state highway patrol confirms the bus just passed its annual mandatory inspection on february 14th. the superintendent noting the entire fleet is now being re-inspected out of an abundance of caution. she writes the driver who's asking not to be identified, credited annual evacuation drills for getting students out safely, adding i can't express

how relieved i am that no one was hurt. >> heroic work by that bus driver. nbc's maggie vespa. maggie. thank you. still ahead this morning, a fact check on president trump's inaccurate claims about u.s. and european aid to ukraine ahead of president zelensky's white house visit just a few hours from now. plus, we'll dig into a new piece from axios on president trump's disruption to the international order forged after world war two. morning joe is coming right back. back. >> you. i can say where i i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! —uh. —here i'll take that. [cheering] ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar and a protein blend to feed muscles up to 7 hours. ♪♪ ever feel like a spectator in your own life with chronic migraine? 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine.

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cleaner, and enjoy a spotless house for $19. >> but european union has been. it was formed in order to screw the united states. i mean, look, let's be honest. the european union was formed in order to screw the united states. that's the purpose of it. and they've done a good job of it. but now i'm president. >> what will happen. >> to these countries. >> or. >> the eu retaliate? >> they can't. i mean, they can try, but they can't. >> you said yesterday that the eu was constructed to screw the us when it comes to trade. what can our prime minister say to you to persuade you not to impose tariffs on the united kingdom? >> did i use the word that you said that bad word? >> i think so. >> think of it. a modestly successful comedian, a dictator without elections. zelensky, better move fast or he's not going to have a country left.

>> mr. president. >> i still think that mr. zelensky is dictator. >> did i say that? i can't believe i said that. next question. >> donald trump either being coy or forgetting what he said in recent days. i don't think he forgot. but talking about the eu and ukrainian president zelensky. willie. yeah, not exactly sure how they're going to be reading that in kyiv or in brussels or wherever. eu leadership reads things. but yeah, that's, that's that's only going to raise more troubling questions for leaders of the eu and ukraine. >> yeah. that's, by the way, something donald trump always does. say something inflammatory then deny it or walk away from it or try to anyway. unfortunately for him, that's on tape. and this is very interesting because ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky will visit the white house this morning to finalize that mineral

rights deal. unclear. still, though, if he'll get the security guarantees he is seeking, we'll get into the details of that. plus, we'll go through a federal judge's ruling on memos from the trump administration directing the mass firing of federal workers and what it means for employees who already have been let go. meanwhile, inflation heading in the wrong direction, the price of eggs has been getting a lot of attention. but now meat prices are nearing record highs among many other products. with us this morning, the co-host of our fourth hour contributing writer at the atlantic, jonathan lemire, managing editor at the bulwark. sam stein, washington bureau chief at usa today. susan page, co-founder of axios. mike allen and rogers chair in the american presidency at vanderbilt university. historian jon meacham. joe. >> yeah. you know, willie, we we've got this show that's like i think mike and i timed it out. it's like 47 hours a day. and so, yeah, when you get off the

show. right. you're right. people are like, oh, so what's going on and why. so you don't really want to talk about politics. and you know, you and me especially, i work not only with the orphanage, but with this documentary that the barnacle boys are going to do with us about our time locked up in turkey in 72, 73. we're busy. so usually when people are calling me, they're calling and saying, hey, you know, asking about politics. but you know that something's really cut through. and when, especially with the last couple of months when that's not happening. and i got a couple calls yesterday, i think in part because people knew, you know, what a huge fan of gene hackman's i was. but i think also just because the further we get away from this breaking news, the stranger it gets. i got a couple people calling, hey, could you tell me? and i was like, what are they? what are they going to ask me about? you know, you know, about what's happening in washington, d.c. but they go back to this gene hackman story because it

seems to get stranger the more you hear about it. it's hard to figure out exactly what happened there. >> yeah. i mean, when this crossed yesterday morning, around this time early, it already felt a little strange that gene hackman and his wife both had died and one of the dogs was dead. there were many questions surrounding it, and now we're getting a little bit more information. police in santa fe, santa fe are calling the death of gene hackman and his wife suspicious. nbc news correspondent dana griffin has new details. >> chilling new details in the death of legendary actor gene hackman and his wife of 34 years, betsy arakawa. >> you know, all i can say is they have been deceased. deceased for quite a while. >> their bodies found wednesday afternoon after a groundskeeper called 911 after arriving at their santa fe, new mexico, home and seeing them through a window. >> are they moving at all? >> no. >> they're not moving. just send somebody up here really quick.

>> authorities are investigating the deaths as suspicious, but have already ruled out a carbon monoxide leak and say there were no obvious signs of foul play. >> there was no indication of a struggle. there was no indication of anything that was missing from the home or disturbed. >> when deputies arrived, they located the body of hackman's 65 year old wife in a bathroom located near the front door, which was open, according to the warrant. officers noted an orange bottle of prescription pills scattered on the countertop and a space heater near her head, which detectives say could indicate she fell abruptly to the ground. 95 year old hackman was found dead in a mudroom near the kitchen, according to the warrant. it states his cane was next to him, indicating he may have fallen and was unable to get up. deputies also found the couple's german shepherd dead in her crate. the warrant says both gene and betsy's bodies showed signs of decomposition. >> this is an investigation, so we're keeping everything on the table. you know, i think the autopsy is going to tell us a

lot. >> dana griffin reporting there. joe. so the way the police have reported this out is that a couple of maintenance workers who regularly were doing work over the years, that gene hackman's home saw the front door open. thought that was suspicious. called the police. and the police went in and saw the scene. you saw described in the affidavit there. but yeah, hackman and his wife were found in different places in the home. the dog still in a crate, all of it indicating that they may have died some time ago. >> yeah. and, jonathan, the autopsy obviously is going to be so important, but police reporting that nothing was missing from the house. >> yeah. it's a it is a strange one. we'll learn more in the in the days ahead. police have been now a couple of times in the circumstances suspicious. but they have said now a few times there's no evidence of foul play. one theory that a law enforcement person familiar with the case floated to me yesterday is it's perhaps mrs. hackman. gene hackman's wife died first of some sort of medical episode,

and then then gene hackman, who is 95 and not in the best of health, perhaps died afterwards. whether he was trying to assist her or some time later, it's unclear. but from those initial reports, it seems like both have been dead for some time and maybe her more than him. and then there is the moment of the deceased dog. and the one dog who did die was near the prescription pills that were spilled. perhaps the dog got into those pills while the others were still alive elsewhere on the property. but again, this is just one theory at this point. nothing is certain. but it. but will it will be a you know will it will take days and potentially, you know, a week or more before the, you know, autopsy and all the toxicology reports are complete. these things do take some time. you know, when that initial autopsy report is finished in the next couple of days, we'll learn more. but we may not have definitive answers here for quite some time. but certainly a very, very sad story. gene hackman, one of hollywood's greatest actors, and this couple had been together for decades.

>> yeah, it is a sad story. we'll have more details as we get them. we'll bring them to you. for now, though, we want to turn back to washington, where ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy will meet this morning with president trump at the white house. the leaders expected to sign a deal giving the united states ownership of some rare earth minerals in ukraine, although the specific details have not yet been disclosed. the talks follow a tense back and forth, with zelensky rejecting trump's earlier proposal that the u.s. take $500 billion worth of minerals without offering security guarantees. while trump has downplayed security commitments, he claimed yesterday, american involvement alone provides some level of protection. >> president zelensky is coming to see me on friday, friday morning and we're going to be signing really a very important agreement for both sides because it's really going to get us into that country. we'll be working there. we'll have a lot of people working there. and so in that sense, it's very good. it's a backstop. you could say, i don't think anybody's going to

play around if we're there with a lot of workers and having to do with rare earths and other things, which we need for our country, and we appreciate it very much. and i look forward to seeing him. >> so, joe, that offer there is going to provide a lot of comfort to president zelensky, the people of ukraine or to europe, by the way, that just by virtue of us being there, the united states having a presence in ukraine, nobody's going to mess with us. it's clear that zelensky cannot leave washington with at least some security guarantees. if he's going to give up all these rare earth minerals in his country. >> well, we always hear that the first you know, the first thing that donald trump says is an opening bid. i don't know if it is an opening bid. and what we've been hearing over the past two weeks is an opening bid. that just doesn't make any sense. and nobody would take. first of all, he starts it a $500 billion number. congress appropriated about 180 million i believe tops europe did more

than that. by the way, just for all the information that's out there saying otherwise. second thing is that that that even though congress has appropriated that much money, some reports are that we haven't even given them $100 billion yet. i said even i mean, that's a lot of money, but that's not $500 billion. so you're talking about 100, $100 billion that we've already sent their way. of course, so much of that was sent in the form of weapons that were built here in the united states of america and created american jobs, was good for america, just like the eu relationship has been good for america. the trade has been good for america. our economy has dominated the world and is the envy of the world. the international system post-world war two set up pretty well for the united states of america to thrive. that's and that's one of the jon meacham that's one of the enduring

mysteries for me, that that republicans, people who call themselves republicans, don't understand that this, this post-world war two international order has been benefited the united states of america in an extraordinary way. and i also have got to say, i'm curious what your thoughts are about a proposed $500 billion. i don't know exactly what you would call it. pay. pay off from ukraine to the united states of america. it seems to me like we're getting into treaty of versailles material there. that would. first of all, it doesn't line up with how much the united states has loaned ukraine. and secondly, it's it it would be crippling to an economy that has to get rebuilt after this war finally ends. >> yeah, in more ways than one. it's a pre 1914 maneuver. it's a kind of imperialism, basically.

zelensky is renting us. we're renting ourselves to them for a certain amount of money and asset. the thing that i go back to again and again, and i have never heard a very good answer. and so we'll just frame the question one more time is how did the party of the reagan republican cold war tear down this wall? george h.w. bush? this aggression will not stand. this ethos of protecting the interests of democracies against autocracies. when did that just suddenly change? not when, but why? why did that suddenly change? and to me, it's one of the central questions of the era, because the reorientation

of american foreign policy from a particularly on the center right and over from we will stand for freedom, not universally not saying we were somehow perfect before 2017. and now now we're not. but what is it in the trump canon that has put us more on the side of aggressors, as opposed to those who ordinarily, for decades would receive our support and our sympathy? >> it's fascinating. it really is. i mean, i think everyone on this panel right now would tell you, when they talk privately to republicans, they say, of course, putin is the aggressor. of course, zelenskyy is not a dictator. of course, that ukraine is the victim here, but then won't go out and say it publicly because of one man. the

president and president trump hosted british prime minister keir starmer at the white house yesterday during a joint press conference. starmer addressed trump's efforts to broker a peace deal between ukraine and russia, stressing the importance of ensuring that any agreement is handled correctly. meanwhile, earlier in the day, president trump commented on whether he believes russia's vladimir putin would abide by the terms of a cease fire if, in fact, it is reached. >> mr. president, i welcome your deep and personal commitment to bring peace and to stop the killing. you've created a moment of tremendous opportunity to reach a historic peace deal, a deal that i think would be celebrated in ukraine and around the world. that is the prize. but we have to get it right. it can't be peace that rewards the aggressor, or that gives encouragement to regimes like iran. we agree history must be on the side of the peacemaker, not the invader. so the stakes,

they couldn't be higher. >> what would you be willing to do if vladimir putin did not stick to the terms of any deal on ukraine? >> if he. >> did not stick to the terms of any deal on ukraine, because he's actually of not sticking to his word when it comes to international agreements. >> i think he'll keep his word, i think. i think he's i've spoken to him. i've known him for a long time now. you know, i've known him. we had we had to go through the russian hoax together. that was not a good thing. it's not fair. that was a rigged deal and had nothing to do with russia. it was a rigged deal with inside the country. and they had to put up with that, too. they put up with a lot. it wasn't just us. they had to put up with it with a phony story that was made up. i've known him for a long time now, and i think he will. i don't believe he's going to violate his word. i don't think he'll be back when we make a deal. i think the deal is going to hold. >> joe, before we get on to talk about ukraine, we have to just pause right there. that statement was extraordinary. the president, united states saying,

yes, it is. he and vladimir putin went through the russia hoax together. they were in this thing together that people were out to get them when it was well documented. whether you think the trump campaign in 2016 sought the help or welcomed the help or not. it's not disputed that russia put its thumb on the scale in that election. but he he sees a partner in that fight and a fellow victim. >> every single one of donald trump's intelligence. select leaders that he selected, agency heads that he selected. believed. and it was the position of our government that russia interfered in the 2016 election. now, do you want to jump to conclusion on that? that's that's where the huge debate goes. and that's when you start hearing about russia hoax. but there is no hoax behind the central fact that russia

interfered in the election for the benefit of donald trump, whether he sought that help or not. again, that is that's been a raging debate since 2017. but but even marco rubio, when he was running the senate intelligence committee, marco rubio and republicans said that donald trump's 2016 campaign and actors in it caused a direct counterintelligence threat to the united states of america's security. that's what marco rubio that's what the republican senate intel committee said. and again, not not to belabor this point, but, you know, they're just some things that that that, you know, stop the presses. and this is one of them. again, our own intelligence agencies under donald trump, susan page said

that russia interfered in the 2016 election. that's that's just you could go into any courtroom in america and get judicial notice of that. it is such common. it's common and it's established fact. >> and it's not really even the fundamental origin of president trump's admiration and alignment with vladimir putin. it is, though he cited it yesterday as kind of a formative experience. we know that that donald trump has been attracted to strong men, been willing to trust vladimir putin's assurances over those of his own intelligence agencies. i mean, it's one of the fundamental shifts we've seen in our foreign policy, and the other is the transactional nature of it. i mean, that's one thing that's so striking about the meeting with zelenskyy today. you know, when u.s. troops helped expel iraqi forces from kuwait, we didn't then

demand that kuwait provide us with some some exchange to make up for the money we had spent there. this is a this is a new endeavor on the part of the united states in modern times, and a very different sort of foreign policy. >> still ahead, the trump administration's sweeping effort to shrink the size of the federal workforce hits a new roadblock. we'll dig into a new ruling by a federal judge as firings continue to take place. but first, as we mentioned, president trump repeatedly has made false claims about the amount of aid the united states has given to ukraine. steve rattner is standing by with the fact check. morning joe, back in fact check. morning joe, back in 90s. at&t has a new guarantee. because most things in business are not guaranteed. like a distraction-free work environment.

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putting in extra ot right here. >> we've checked off our to do list. >> now we're checking off our to do list. >> we, the lazy, are taking. back lazy. >> by getting comfy on our lazy boy furniture. >> lazy boy. >> long live the lazy. >> don't let back pain. turn your whole day into a constant struggle. take action with doan's proven relief to get you back to your day. doan's maximum strength back pain relief. trusted for over 100 years to get you back to doing what you love. >> you know, it's very, very interesting. sam stein, let's let's pull back and look at the meeting with keir starmer yesterday. also look, earlier in the week at the meeting with macron. and you look at how these two western european leaders interacted with donald trump, somewhat different than the first term where, you know, more grimaced handshakes. of course, macron and donald trump still have the handshaking

contest. i wonder how long that's going to last. but that's just a thing. maybe they get dana white in there next time to officiate it. but you notice, though, it was personally, they all tried to express warmth. and you you had them gently chiding the president on ukraine, basically doing the sort of corrections that we do and other people doing this show about whether it's a loan or or whatever. but you saw yesterday, actually keir starmer and donald trump get along much better than most people thought, even with the british prime minister delivering a note from king charles requesting a state dinner, i guess, at buckingham palace. is it. >> abnormal to shake someone's hand for 14 seconds in a grimace? i usually do. >> it every time they meet. it's crazy. yeah, i gotcha. i think. >> the memo. >> has gone out, and rightfully so, that the way to deal with trump is to use flattery, and

it's not that complicated. i think this is sort of the through line through all of this, which is, you know, one of the reasons trump is agitating towards ending the war in favorable terms for russia. i think, frankly, is that he just has more admiration for putin than zelensky. he likes putin more. and really it's transactional, as susan said. but it's also quite personal. starmer, macron they both know that if they want to extract anything from trump vis a vis concessions for the fight for ukraine, they have to flatter him. and so you have these situations where starmer is up there saying, oh, thank you, mr. president. you've delivered this historic opportunity for peace. as if he isn't aware that trump would have gladly handed over ukraine to russia the moment russia invaded. and that's just the price of admission for dealing with trump on the on the foreign stage. and i think this is a sort of distinction, i guess, between the first term,

where a lot of world leaders want to rightfully show bravado and stand up to trump and lecture him on the ways of the world, and didn't really get them anywhere. this time around, they know that they have much more success, i suppose, with carrots than with sticks. >> yeah, i suppose so. and you, you look though, jonathan lemire again at, at what western european leaders are having to do to try to get donald trump to stay supportive of ukraine. and it is it seems like it is this back and forth, this back and forth. it's going to be curious to see how today's meeting goes. what are you expecting with president zelensky? >> yeah. first you're right about flattery. and also trump is known to have a soft spot for the british royal family. so i'm told that he repeatedly spent much of last evening talking about how wonderful this invitation was. it would be his second state dinner. i believe he'd be the first president to receive a second state dinner in the uk, and he took to truth

social as well, to post about what an honor that was. the relation with zelensky, though very different. we've seen zelensky try to flatter him a little bit too, particularly during the, you know, the end, the transition here. you know, zelensky's accounting of some of their phone calls. zelensky goes back and forth at times. he can't hide his frustration. he knows that trump is endangering the very his country's very existence with by siding with russia. but other times, zelensky does seem like he's trying to get on trump's good side. and now there's this minerals deal details to be worked out, though many have deemed sort of extortion for ukraine. but it's more favorable for ukraine today than it was a week or so ago when the treasury secretary just shoved the paper at zelensky and said, you need to sign this. this seems a little more reasonable now, but trump continues to side with putin in this arrangement. and mike axios has a new piece up this morning titled trump's new world order strongmen make the rules. obviously, putin is fits the definition. tell us what you

guys are all looking at there. >> yeah thank you jonathan. this pulls back the camera piece by zachary basu. looking at the trump. >> world order. >> and we've all been saying that trump is disrupting. >> the world. >> order since 1945. leave it to monsignor meacham to pull that back even further. three decades going back to 1914, 111 years, however you dated, this is a complete change. and what's changing? trump has contempt for the alliances and the institutions that. the world. as we know it has grown up in. he sees opportunity in a world that's dominated by strong men and dealmaking. what's in their head, what's behind this? like axios always tried to show you how trump thinks, and zach isolated a key quote by secretary of state marco rubio during his confirmation hearing. he said that that global postwar

order since 1945 is not just inhibiting the united states, but actually is being used as a weapon against it now. so what we see playing out is the scorn that so many of the trump people have for europe, for its trade, for its defense, for its culture, for its. >> speech. >> like all those things about europe that they see as icky is all playing out here. but today we're seeing trump, the dealmaker, and another a great piece up on axios at this moment from barak ravid points out that day by day we have seen trump's tone about zelensky softening. so after two weeks of attack, he's getting ready to play the host. >> coming up, there are some big stars coming to broadway this season, including denzel washington and jake gyllenhaal will preview their new show and the one starring george clooney.

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>> reporting from philadelphia. >> el paso. >> and the palisades, virginia. >> from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. >> we're going to be signing the deal together, probably in front of the media, and we're going to be having a good conversation. no, we want to work with him. president zelensky. zelensky, she said before, we want to work with him and we will work with him. i think the president and i actually have had a very good relationship. it may be got a little bit testy because we wanted to have a little bit of what the european nations had. you know, they they get their money back by giving money. we don't get the money back. biden made a deal. he put in $350 billion. and i thought it was a very unfair situation. >> we're not getting all of ours. i mean, quite a bit of ours was, was was gifted. it was given. there were some loans, but mainly it was gifted. actually. >> that was british prime minister keir starmer correcting president trump's claim that european countries are providing

aid, are going to get their money back. that that was almost a exact mirror of emmanuel macron, who also corrected the president when he said a similar statement during the french president's visit earlier this week. we're going to get to steve rattner in a minute. he'll go through all the numbers for you. but but i also just got to say that 350 and steve will i'm sure, show this $350 billion is just it's just a number grabbed out of thin air. we didn't do it again. steve's going to go through these numbers, but it's just it's wildly off. so and then negotiations that's obviously getting those numbers right obviously going to be important. and the ukrainians and everybody else is going to know what the real number is. it's not close to $350 billion. jon meacham, you talked you had taken us back talking about, you know, it's moving, moving further back than the post-world war two order. you talked about this being pre 1914. i am

curious, there are a lot of things that are happening in washington have been happening over the past couple of years, where there really aren't a lot of parallels. i suspect, though, this view of the world. what what what is old is new again, this view of the world that donald trump is bringing in to the white house and sort of smashing this postwar order that has seen the united states dominate the world economically and militarily and every other way, culturally, you name it, we've dominated since the end of world war two. but he's trying to bring about this new order. take us back. is this more like a teddy roosevelt imperialist approach? is this william mckinley? who who does this remind you of his his his world view when it comes to power politics? >> it's older than that, even. it's almost medieval and

renaissance, right? this this is a royal house with a kingdom who bases relations on personal connection, personal feeling to go to something susan said a moment ago. and basically the transfer of assets. it's a very autocratic, very straightforward. i mean, let's be honest, it's kind of i don't want to say refreshing, but but the president is being very clear here. so one of the things that i think is, is really important here is to remember that we are now living to shift from a historical metaphor to a cultural one. we're now living in the sopranos, right? this is a this is a protection racket. basically, president zelensky is

being asked to come to washington to pay for our protection. and one of the most revealing moments, i think, of the last couple of weeks was and some comments the president made, it was about the associated press situation in the white house. and i believe i have this almost, almost exactly right. but it's certainly the essence of it. the ap doesn't do me any favors, so i'm not going to do them any favors. that's the way the world works. that's the way the world works. that's where we are. and it's a there's not a lot of diplomatic thought here. you know, this is there's not going to be a foreign affairs piece about this doctrine. that's the way the world works. >> coming up, our next guest represents a state with more than 100,000 government employees. senator adam schiff of california weighs in on the president's push to slash the

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>> joining us now, former treasury official and morning joe economic analyst steve rattner, with charts on ukrainian aid. so, steve, this is something that we've been focused on for the last several days, donald trump throwing around that number of $350 billion. what are the numbers really look like. >> yeah he talks about $350 billion. you guys correct him every morning. and then he goes back the next day and says the same thing. so i don't know. we'll try some charts and see if that helps. but before i get to that let me just say something. underscoring what i heard earlier at the top of the show, the idea that we are effectively asking our ally, who was attacked to pay the equivalent of the reparations that we asked germany to pay in world war one,

is kind of mind boggling. we're here to help these people not get money back. and as the british prime minister said, it is not correct to say all of the european money is loans. i may be some loans in there, but most of it just like us, is aid. but in any event, here are the numbsncor all. maybe donald trump will pay attention today. he claims $350 billion. the actual number from the kiel institute impartial observer is $120 billion. he talks about how europe only spent $100 billion. actual number $138 billion. these are the numbers once and for all as we sit here today. now let's look at how we're doing compared to other countries. and it's kind of interesting because you do have three countries, small countries that happen to also be close to moscow. that's not a coincidence. spending over 2% of their gdp on on aid to ukraine. then you get to a whole bunch of other countries that are kind of in the rough, the rough zone of

about half a percentage point of their gdp. germany a little bit higher than the us, france, uk, italy and so on. so we are right in the middle of the pack. we are actually number 17. i didn't list all the countries. we are number 17 among the countries providing aid. when you measure it against our gross domestic product and these are also the numbers. so we're not doing anything extraordinary. >> coming up, a preview of this sunday's academy awards, we're going to break down the top contenders and what's being called the most uncertain oscar race in years. morning, joe, we'll be right back. >> not feeling the graze. >> but don't want a color? >> try just for men. control gx gray reducing shampoo. >> just shampoo. >> like you do to gradually reduce grays. now boosted with keratin hair. looks two times thicker to keep you looking your best control gx shampoo. >> for a plant based healthy blood pressure. >> support. there's one brand at walmart that stands above the rest. it's super beats. discover

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>> call now or go to send info.com. >> physicians mutual. physicians mutual. >> donald trump. >> is defending the mass firings of federal watchdogs. >> our federal government now. >> can. >> discriminate against the. >> citizens of.

>> the country. >> we are all watching. >> and waiting. >> to see. >> who is going to hold the line. don't miss the weekends. >> saturday. >> and sunday mornings. >> at eight. >> on msnbc. >> there is a lot going on tonight. you've been in these rooms. how are you digesting. >> it and how. >> do you think the world is digesting what. >> trump is saying? >> what are people. >> saying to you in new jersey. about doge and what. they're seeing? musk and his team. >> do here. what are the global politics for some of these leaders, and why. >> do you see them stating the opposite of what the united states president has stated? >> i think. >> there are. >> a certain kind of people wired a certain kind of way who know there's a story behind the story. >> if you're. >> bold enough to search for it, if you're. passionate enough to speak out, if you're brave enough to stand up to the forces determined to keep you silent. >> one communist too many.

>> no matter the consequences, there. >> are. >> certain kind of people who are the lifeblood of democracy. never wavering, never faltering, never strain in their pursuit of what matters and what matters. honesty, facts, integrity. accuracy. one truth. >> yes, that's george clooney's voice. and that was a preview of one of the most anticipated broadway shows of the spring season. good night and good luck stars clooney, the academy award winning actor in his broadway debut as legendary journalist edward r murrow. clooney, of course, adapted his 2005 film of the same title for the stage. clooney coming to broadway. joining us now with a look at broadway's stacked spring slate. emmy award winning host of on stage on spectrum news new york one. our friend frank. frank, great to see you again. >> good to see you as always. >> an extraordinary number of big names coming to the great white way. but let's start with this one. let's start with

clooney and this show. >> i cannot. >> wait for this. >> you know, this. is his broadway debut. >> and. >> he did. >> theater. >> you know, growing up. >> this is a major moment. >> for him. >> i actually. >> just sat down with him. >> and he. >> was saying, frank, i'm. >> a. >> little nervous. about entering into the. >> world of. >> broadway because these. >> guys are at the top. >> of their craft. but of course. >> you know, we know the property. he played fred friendly on screen. he's playing meryl on stage. david cromer. tony award winner won the tony for the band's visit. one of our most celebrated directors right now is at the helm of this big cast. big stage, big set. it's playing at the winter garden theater, which is normally a musical house, playing to good night and good luck this season. and it is a tough ticket, as you said. >> yeah, definitely. we'll need to figure out a way to get you in. we'll get you that one. so there aren't many actors who are perhaps bigger stars than george clooney, but one of them might be denzel washington, and he and jake gyllenhaal are teaming up for othello. >> yes. >> so obviously. >> shakespeare's classic. >> it's set in the not so. >> distant future.

>> kenny leon, another great director of our generation, he just helmed this production of our town, which was on broadway in the fall, closed up shop earlier this year. he is at the helm of this show, and it's denzel and jake going head to head as othello and iago. in othello. >> another absolute must see. so more big names kieran culkin, bob odenkirk and even bill burr. yeah, yeah. all teaming up for the acclaimed glengarry glen ross. >> yeah. >> david mamet's masterwork. >> it's our third. >> revival of glengarry on broadway. it's playing at the palace theater again, a house that normally houses musicals. this is playing to a play. and kieran culkin, who i think is going to have a really good night on sunday night because he's up for the oscar for a real pain. he is returning to broadway with his glengarry glen ross. i can't wait to see it starts previews very soon. >> maybe on his way to an egot. yes. so his succession costar snook, who plays shiv, is also

coming to broadway this spring. yes. >> she's doing a production of the picture of dorian gray, and it's a one person show. she plays 26 characters in this play. i've talked to folks. it was in london last year. she was widely celebrated for her performance in this. talk to folks who saw it last year in london and said, frank, truly one of the greatest performances you will ever witness on a stage, a tour de force. there's a multimedia video element to it, which you can see in some of those photos. i can't wait for this one. >> and she is part of what you you flagged for us here is sort of a remarkable season for women on stage. there's so many significant actresses who have turned in terrific performances. absolutely. >> i mean, you look at the category for best lead actress in a musical. obviously, sarah will be in the best actress category, but best lead actress in a musical. i mean, people who are eligible for that, you have nicole scherzinger, audra mcdonald, sutton foster, idina menzel, megan hilty, bernadette peters, jennifer simard, adrienne warren. this is going

to be a tough category. not to mention we have a lot of newcomers coming to broadway, like the lead in boo and the lead in real women have curves. so it's going to be a tough category for these gals who are who are being celebrated for their performances on broadway. >> so let's take a step. >> back here. >> big picture. you know, a few years post pandemic now, and there were real concerns about the health of broadway during that time. it seemed with all these big names coming, it seems like it's return to health. >> yeah. you know, i actually just sat down recently with the new head of the broadway league, and he was saying the numbers aren't official yet in terms of a full season, but for january, the numbers are looking good. and if you look at the holiday numbers, you know, wicked did in one week over $5 million at the box office, which broke box office records for the most money made for a show in a week. so that's a really good sign. it's a good sign for the producers. i don't know if it's a good sign for theater patrons because tickets are getting more

expensive, but, you know. >> tickets are expensive. but obviously the health of broadway is so important to the. >> health. >> the health of this city. let's quickly take a couple more smashes back. >> i can't wait for smash. i was a big fan of the tv series, and you know, i saw a workshop of this. you do not need to know the tv series. if you do, if you go see the show, it's a brand new musical about the making of a musical. susan stroman, who did the producers on broadway, one of our great director choreographer, musical theater leaders. she is at the helm of this. and shaiman and wittman, who wrote hairspray and some like it hot. the music for both those shows have done the music, and it's all the music we know from the series. >> and lastly, another show that comes from the small screen. stranger things. >> stranger things. it's the prequel to the series. again, i'm being told you do not need to know stranger things in order to do in order to enjoy this show. this was a big hit in london. sonia friedman, who did harry potter and the cursed child, is the force behind this,

and i hear the stage magic and images that are being done on stage and will be done at the marquee theater are to die for. >> and we. >> have barely scratched the surface here of what is. >> so many. >> things. a remarkable spring on broadway. frank. we always enjoy you being with us. come back soon, frank. thank you so much. up next, here on morning joe, we'll shift gears and go to democratic senator adam schiff, who is our guest ahead of the high stakes meeting at the white house this morning between president trump and ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky. plus, we'll bring you an update on the health of pope francis, as today marks two weeks since he was hospitalized for respiratory issues. and as frank just mentioned, the oscars are this sunday. we're going to bring you a preview of what to expect. it's a wide open awards night. that's all straight ahead on our fourth hour of morning joe. joe. >> all. [tv announcer] premium meat for natural diet. most people don't realize how processed

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>> welcome back. time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. pope francis is showing signs of improvement, according to the vatican. the 88 year old pontiff has been battling pneumonia for two weeks but is now out of the critical phase. good news there. the pope was admitted to the hospital on valentine's day after experiencing respiratory issues and then other ailments elsewhere, pending home sales fell to an all time low in january, dropping 4.6% from december to the lowest level since the national association of realtors began began tracking the metric 24 years ago. in addition, mortgage rates last month rose above 7% for the popular 30 year fixed loan. meanwhile, beef prices are currently near record highs. the average cost of sirloin steaks in january reached nearly $12 per pound, and the average cost of ground beef hit $5.55 per

pound. the rise in prices is due to multiple factors, including shrinking cattle herd sizes and high grain prices. and a new bloomberg report reveals that a number of economic metrics show that us inflation is headed in the wrong direction. several inflation measures, from the costs of materials like lumber and steel to grocery store prices to wage growth, they are all heating up yet again. however, just moments ago, the fed's favorite core inflation measure came in as expected for january, which shows inflation easing just slightly. a lot of economic news there as we roll into the fourth hour of morning joe. it is precisely 6 a.m. out on the west coast. 9 a.m. here on the east of what will be a busy friday morning, about two hours from now. ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky will visit the white house in a

high stakes meeting to finalize a mineral rights deal with president trump. the meeting comes just one day after a visit by the british prime minister. nbc news senior white house correspondent garrett hake has the details. >> president trump. >> set to meet. >> face to face with ukraine's president volodymyr zelenskyy this. morning as he tries to broker. >> a deal. >> to end the war in ukraine. >> i think it's moving along pretty rapidly. it will either be fairly soon or it won't be at all. >> the two. >> presidents set to sign a deal giving. >> the u.s. >> access to ukraine's. >> rare earth minerals. >> designed to pay back billions in american. >> aid to ukraine in recent days. >> president trump making combative comments about zelensky, including calling. >> him a dictator. >> trump hosting british prime minister keir starmer. >> at the. >> white house thursday, backpedaling when asked if. >> he stands. >> by that attack on zelensky. >> did i say that? i can't believe i said that. >> later. raising expectations for. >> today's sitdown. >> we're going to get along

really well. okay. we have a lot of respect. i have a lot of respect for him. >> starmer praising the. president's efforts while urging him not to reward. >> russia in any deal. >> it can't be peace that rewards the aggressor. >> and telling lester holt. >> if there is a. >> deal, the. >> uk and european. allies will. >> help. >> bolster ukraine's security, including with british troops, if necessary. >> i do think that it's important that european countries play a leading part in any security guarantees. >> meanwhile, president trump's effort to slash the federal workforce is meeting new resistance. late thursday, a federal judge ordered the office of personnel management to rescind its memo calling on agencies to fire probationary employees but not calling for the reinstatement of the terminated workers. the latest cuts at noah, which includes the national weather service and works on everything from forecasts and information for farmers to monitoring. dangerous weather like fires and hurricanes. an administration official says the agency has laid off around 600 people while sparing staffers. >> with. >> quote, mission critical

functions at the former headquarters of usaid and emotional exodus recently fired workers given just 15. >> minutes. >> to clear out their desks, including communication specialist ben thompson, who blasted the cuts spearheaded by elon musk's department of government efficiency. >> he's tearing down. >> our institutions for fun. it's a game. it's not public service. >> nbc's garrett haake with that report. let's bring in right now democratic senator adam schiff of california. he's a member of the judiciary committee. senator, thanks so much for being with us today. of course, president zelensky and president trump will be meeting in the white house. we had keir starmer yesterday and macron earlier this week meeting there. what do you want to see out of this meeting and what concerns do you have going into this meeting. well. >> there's a meeting in the white house of the leader of the free world, and donald trump is also going to be there because sadly, he's. >> not. >> the leader of the free world.

it's turning the administration. >> is turning. >> american foreign. >> policy into a kind of protection racket. so i'm deeply concerned about. >> this and. >> the fact that in the run up to this meeting, the administration. >> has so badly betrayed our. >> ukraine ally. >> and our nato allies. blaming ukraine for the war. calling zelensky a dictator. >> and then. >> demanding mineral rights to. >> not even provide a security guarantee, but essentially to maintain good. >> favor with the president. and i just. >> have never felt such shame about american policy before. and i don't know how our allies trust us after this. in terms of what i can hope for out of this meeting, i can only hope. >> the. >> president doesn't betray. >> our ideals. >> more than he has already. >> that ukraine isn't. >> forced to give. >> up something for nothing. that nothing the president. >> says or. >> does in this meeting. >> is going to. >> further undermine ukraine's position in any negotiation that goes on. i have to. think that

zelensky is coming to this meeting in an effort to try. to right the relationship and, you. >> know. >> by trying to. >> give up. something for the goodwill. >> of the president. >> because it's really doesn't. >> appear like he's getting much. >> in this deal by way of a real security guarantee. >> so, senator, in 2014, republican senators were very critical of barack obama for not providing military assistance to ukraine as quickly as they needed it in 2022 and 2023, you had republican house members and some senators also being critical of joe biden, suggesting that he wasn't doing enough to support and defend ukraine. i'm curious, where are your republican colleagues on on this issue? they they seem to be quite strident. and i will say i agreed with them in the defense of ukraine against russia and against russian invasions. i am

curious, though, where are they now? >> well, it's a good question. >> and look, i was also critical of the biden administration at. >> times for. >> not. >> leaning into. >> more. support for ukraine, for taking so long to provide high mars and other. vital military materiel to ukraine. but we're in a whole different place now. where the. >> question is not how quickly. are we providing aid, but. >> whether we're going to completely turn our back on our. ally and provide aid and comfort to our enemy, that is russia. in terms of where republicans are, we've heard some rhetorical support for ukraine. >> but ruben gallego and i took to. >> the. >> senate floor yesterday. on a resolution to. condemn the. >> opposition to the u.n. >> resolution that would have supported. >> ukraine and that passed. without our support. and the republicans objected to it coming up. >> not a single. >> republican would support it. >> now. >> if the administration. >> is going to give up the

mantle of leader of the free world. >> it doesn't mean that america. >> has to. the u.s. >> senate and the house of representatives could step up into. >> the void and express. >> a view. >> that is consistent with our. >> role in supporting democracy around the world. that is. >> not happening because they don't want as. >> yet to. >> contradict this president. >> but this can't go on. >> not if. >> we. >> have any. >> hope, frankly. of maintaining. >> any trust with our allies. >> yeah. jonathan lemire, you know, what the senator is talking about is actually what happened in the first trump term where you had donald trump, whether it was at the helsinki press conference where you asked the question that obviously shocked a lot of the free world. the answer to that question shocked the free world. your your question was rather straightforward. but what we saw a time is that what we saw time and again in the first administration was donald trump

saying things that caused our allies in europe and the free world concerns. but then you would see republican senators passing very tough sanctions against vladimir putin and taking a very tough line against russia. marco rubio would do it. i mean, you would you would see many people that are now in the trump administration doing it. that's why it is what the senator says is not such a stretch. republicans could, in the senate and the house, send a very strong message to our allies, send a very strong message to the west to, to free to free countries and democracies and to the people of ukraine. we are with you, even if our president is not. >> to this point, though, they haven't done that, at least publicly, though many in the administration, as you rightly know, joe russia hawks, or at least they were before january

20th of this year. now we'll have to see how that plays out. trump is been known to when he's in the room with someone, sort of tend to pull his punches, be a little more flattering, perhaps. maybe he'll say what zelensky wants to hear, or at least something approximating that. but we'll have to see, because his personal, frankly, dislike of zelensky has been obvious for years now. we'll see how today goes. there is this agreement that appears to be close. we'll bring the finishing touches on it today. we of course, will keep you posted. but, senator, let's turn to some domestic issues now, and particularly the work of elon musk and doge. there have been a couple of federal judicial rulings that have thrown that have put the brakes on some of what he's trying to do, but he and the office of personnel widespread layoffs, federal mass government employee cuts in the middle of march, a couple of weeks from now. give us your assessment as to what that would mean, not just for the government, but for your constituents. >> well, if they're.

>> able to go forward with this continuing agenda of slashing the government and slashing benefits primarily to raise the money for this. >> massive tax. >> cut that will benefit benefit large companies. >> lots of people are going to be hurt. >> in really visceral ways. i think you're going to. >> see hospitals shut down. >> you're going to see clinics go away. >> you're going to see. >> the results of the cuts to. >> education in the form. >> of less funding for special. >> ed for. >> classrooms around. >> the country. already in some places, people. >> are. >> saying a trump surcharge. >> on their bills. >> that was one. >> example in alabama. >> where because there were slashes. >> to energy. >> subsidies. >> people were getting $100. surcharge on their bill. >> when those impacts. >> start to be felt. >> and there's always a lag between. the cuts. >> and the pain, then i think my republican colleagues are going to be hearing from people in massive numbers, and the president's numbers are going to. >> tank more. >> their own numbers. >> are. going to tank more. >> but more importantly, the. >> american people are. really

going. >> to suffer in la, where we've gone through these horrible wildfires. some of the firefighters that battled those blazes have gotten notices. >> that they're fired or they should quit. that's quite a reward for a job. >> you know. courageously done. and, you know, some of the funding for fema and other agencies may go away that would be necessary for the rebuilding. that's just in one state, in one part of one state. but the whole country is going to feel this. >> all right. democratic senator adam schiff of california, thanks so much for being with us. let's bring in now msnbc host symone sanders townsend and also nbc news national affairs analyst and a partner in chief, political columnist at poc, john heilemann. symone, let's start with you. front page of the new york times talks about chaos with a must cuts, and also how the cabinet is actually donald trump's own cabinet is struggling with it. there's some grumbling, some backbiting, some real concerns. i'm curious right

now, even though we're starting to see that out at town hall meetings across america, i'm curious, what is what is the immediate political impact? >> well, look. >> joe. >> i have. >> actually been hearing from a lot of individuals who work inside the government, people that i knew when i worked there who are career officials, but people whom i do not know who are reaching out anonymously, who are scared, saying, we just want people to know what it feels like. and i just want to tell you. >> i spoke. >> to a person who was a nonpolitical general counsel at an agency. this president has been placed on administrative leave with proposed termination. and they said, quote, we are living through a coup. another individual who works at u.s. customs and citizen, u.s. citizenship and immigration services, said to me that they are all afraid within the agency that they're going to be merged with ice. to be clear, ice is enforcement. u.s. citizenship and immigration services helps people naturalize and helps set

the immigration policies. and so this is this is hitting people exactly where it hurts their pockets, their lives, their livelihoods. and i think that the political ramifications are not actually being captured at these town halls. there are people who are not going to be present at these town halls because they are scared, because they are afraid. there are also some people, frankly, y'all, that aren't showing up to the town halls because they tried to warn folks before the election started and they did not vote for donald trump because they knew what he would be bringing. so i do think that republicans who are saying, oh, democrats are they're bussing in democrats to these town halls and they're organizing they can they can play with the american people if they would like. i remind them, remember when democrats back in the first year of the biden administration, i worked there, said that the inflation was transitory, right? that it wasn't going to be that it wasn't that it wasn't going to be permanent, that people were just making things up. that was not the reality. people were living. and we saw the

ramifications of that during the election. so i just i would caution folks. >> i will say, john, if you and we've talked about this a good bit, if you talk generally about doj's, if you talk generally about cuts, that concept is a popular concept. it's been a popular concept when, you know, there was a golden fleece award when al gore was talking about it. it's been popular, you know, remaking reforming government. it is when the rubber hits the road and you have the individual cuts that there are problems. certainly in states like virginia. i will say, though, you know, what did we hear after the election? it was the price of eggs. it was the price of groceries. it was the price of gas. well, none of those have actually gone down. and i suspect as much as we talk about this and talk about other issues, if the price of beef remains at record levels, if the price of eggs remain at record levels, if the price of groceries don't come down substantially in the coming year, that's probably what

voters are going to be more focused on than those or ukraine or any of these other issues that do matter a great deal. yeah, 100%, 100%. >> joe and i you. >> know, i. talked to. >> a lot of people who are. >> out there. >> doing focus groups around the country, and this is a persistent. >> theme that you. >> keep hearing. >> from voters. not democratic. >> voters. >> independent voters. >> and republican. >> voters. >> which is. >> the price of. >> eggs. >> the price of beef, the price. >> of gas. >> the price, the price of things. >> was the thing. >> that ultimately was the most lethal to joe biden's presidency. and what those focus groups are saying is that the what the chaos looks like to them, what we portray as chaos. and some of those things really are going about the way that musk and doge are going about. things are undeniably chaotic, and it obviously makes headlines when they're cutting air traffic, they're cutting faa people when they're when there

are these near misses in the skies, the admission that they cut the ebola funding, these are, you know, big headline things, the nuclear safety people. but in the town halls, what people see is they see donald trump not focused on the main thing that they want donald trump to focus on, which is the economy and prices. on one hand, they see that and they also see that prices are not falling. the prices are in fact rising. and i think in the end, that is the most lethal factor that donald trump has to contend with politically. i love a lot of civil servants. i think people who serve the government are almost are almost entirely public spirited public, and they work really hard. and i have enormous sympathy for them when they are facing getting fired. i think out in the country where many, many millions of people have worked in private sector jobs, where big, unexpected layoffs have occurred, the a lot of those people have a lot less

sympathy for government workers, whether you call them bureaucrats or call them civil servants. they sort of say, this is the way our economy is right now. it's brutal. it's been like this for years. that is not the thing that's breaking through. it's breaking through. is trump's lack of focus on the things that affect their lives in a very direct way. >> yeah. and to reiterate john's point there, so many of these people who work for the government, they're not all that highly paid, and they're doing so for the right reasons. they want to make a difference. and yet so many of them are experiencing so much strain and stress right now. elsewhere in washington, the department of justice has released a batch of documents related to the jeffrey epstein case. but the hype devolved into disappointment for many, since the files that were released had already been made public and some of them for years. the documents contained absolutely no bombshells, prompting some on the far right to predictably make claims of a coverup. in a letter to fbi director kash patel, attorney general pam bondi, citing a source, accused the fbi field

office in new york of withholding thousands of documents and demanded the full and complete epstein files to be delivered to her office by 8 a.m. this morning. so that was a little over an hour ago, but so far, no word on whether or not that deadline was met. let's now bring in former state attorney for palm beach county, dave aronberg. dave, first thought on that. what do you make of the incomplete nature allegedly of these files? you know, we are awaiting word of what else may have been produced. you know, we know that there's been conspiracy theories, frankly, on both sides of the aisle as to what names are in there. but prominent figures may have been involved with the notorious jeffrey epstein, you know, where where do you see this going from here? >> good to be with you, jonathan. >> well. >> first. >> there was. >> a lot of anticipation on this and a lot of fanfare.

>> and i think that was the. >> mistake here because in the end, it was. >> like opening. >> up. >> al capone's vault. i mean, it was a. >> it was a big nothing burger. and but that's nothing new. here because there's been a lot of disappointments. a judge last year released the grand jury transcripts, and that was a big bust. and we've seen all this stuff before. so now the right wing bloggers are furious. and they were holding up that memo that that briefing packet and it said declassified on it. it was unclear whether it was even classified to begin with. so their expectations were too high. and it didn't help. by the way, jonathan, that jim jordan's house judiciary committee yesterday they posted a link to the epstein files. and when you clicked on the link, you got rick rolled. i'm not making this up. this actually happened. and if you don't know what rick rolling is, just take a look online for it. so attorney general bondi anticipated this public disappointment. and so she wrote that letter to kash patel. and she's ordering that the rest of the documents that have been supposedly withheld by

the new york office of the fbi be released by this friday. so she's going to release more documents. the question is, though, is whether there really is any unreleased material out there besides stuff that would expose the identity of the 250 plus victims. so the question is, is there more stuff out there? and i think there's one area where it could bear fruit, and that is when the fbi raided jeffrey epstein's manhattan mansion in 2019, they found a bunch of things like these zip drives, and they had to break into a safe with an ax. well, that stuff has not really been shown to the public. maybe that's some area where they can show something new, but besides that, i think there's been a lot of disappointment ahead. >> you know, john heilemann, this would be a good time to go to you, because i know this entire the whole jeffrey epstein situation has been shrouded in mystery for a very long time. and i say that i remember us talking on set in 2015 and

talking about jeffrey epstein and how this guy, jeffrey epstein, that most of the world didn't even know, could have an impact on the 2016 campaign. and i know asking time and time again, why have the feds, you know, let this guy go? why did they give him such a sweetheart deal? now, there are questions about these files. it seems very strange to say you're going to release these files, you know, by thursday, and then they release, as dave said, a nothingburger. this just this just goes on and on. it seems every time this topic comes up, it ends up with more questions than answers. >> right? and joe, back in 2015, and i'll tell you, i'm addled on on matters of time and chronology. but i believe jeffrey epstein was still alive in 2015. or maybe he had just recently been deceased. and i'll

tell you, you know, back in those days, it was the fact that we knew that two of the leading the two candidates who would end up being the nominees of the party, donald trump and hillary clinton, not hillary clinton. her her connection was not to jeffrey epstein, but her husband, bill clinton, who had been friends with jeffrey epstein. donald trump had been friends with jeffrey epstein. and so the question of what would come out about those two families, candidate and candidate's spouse, that might impact the race was a big question. a lot of information has already come out about the connections between those individuals and many other famous people. jeffrey epstein was a very, very bad guy who did a lot of very, very bad stuff on a particular type of badness that has become a focus of obsession, particularly on the right, where the notions of conspiracy theories about about pedophile rings have become have run r ihe fever swamps. this is not to excuse pedophilia

or not say that there aren't pedophile rings, but there is an expansive literature and a very heated degree of conspiracy swamp theorizing about about networks that encompass pretty much everybody who has ever been to davos being involved in these matters. and i have no idea what's in the files. i just will say that at this point, the notion that there is some grand conspiracy at s.d.n.y to protect individuals who had some connection to jeffrey epstein strikes me as implausible. i don't i don't think that dave ehrenberg's point. i don't think that all of a sudden we're going to open capone's capone's vault, and we're going to discover that the whole davos set is implicated in the jeffrey epstein case. maybe i'll be proven wrong, but i think in the end, we may know pretty much all that's material about the people who swirled around jeffrey epstein in that really disgusting pool that he swam in and led a lot of prominent people into while he was alive. >> the first batch of these

epstein files handed over to some right wing blogger types at the white house, many of whom then were upset at how incomplete they were. we'll see what else may materialize. dave aronberg, we'll turn to you about another notorious figure, andrew tate, the right wing influencer who, along with his brother tristan, faces human trafficking charges in romania. but he returned to the us yesterday. both men and questions now surround why the pair was allowed to leave romania in the first place. dave, they're both unabashed donald trump supporters. what do we make of this? because i will note governor desantis of florida objected to this move. >> why does it always have to be a florida connection to everything? right? i mean, always these guys showed up in south florida, and this is where i actually agree with governor desantis. he says they're not welcome here. and then he says, i don't know how this happened. that's the part i disagree with. i think he and we all know what happened here. ric grenell, a special envoy from the white house, met with the foreign minister of romania. and after that conversation, these two

brothers were released. now they still have to stand trial, supposedly. but, you know, they're here now. and they said they're going to go back next month over there and go to a hearing. but, you know, i, i think that's going to be very difficult for prosecutors over there. now trump is transactional. and even though he's denying that he even knew what was going on, the tate brothers have been strong supporters of trump. and they have they have turned countless young incels into maga warriors, and trump rewards those who are loyal to him. whether it's the 1500 insurrectionists he pardoned or eric adams or the tate brothers. in fact, the lawyer for the tate brothers also represented a bunch of january 6th insurrectionists. so one thing that's interesting that was brought up by john heilemann is that you would think that right wingers who are obsessed with human trafficking would be outraged by all this. but you don't hear a peep from the qanon crowd. i think they only care about human trafficking when it's hillary clinton who is supposedly leading the operation. >> donald trump said yesterday that he didn't know anything

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finale. the 97th oscars with first time host conan o'brien. >> seriously. >> he'll be joined by a star studded list of. >> presenters, including oprah winfrey, harrison ford and samuel l jackson. and some spellbinding musical performances with wicked, cynthia erivo and ariana grande taking the stage. deadline is also reporting there may even be a tribute to the iconic. bond music in the works. >> mr. bond, james bond. >> well. >> the academy has teased other performances, from doja cat to queen latifah and hollywood will take a moment to honor the many legends lost. abc news reporting the show will. >> pay tribute to. >> gene hackman while behind the scenes the race heats up, especially. >> for best picture. >> 15 cash. >> up front. >> the race for best picture is between. honora and. >> conclave. >> but i think you can. >> also count. out the.

>> brutalist and even. >> a complete unknown. >> amelia perez had. >> a lot of early. >> awards season momentum, including a historic nomination for karla sofia gascon, the first openly trans. >> actor nominated. >> for an oscar. >> are you english? >> but the film's hopes faded. >> after old offensive. >> tweets by gascon were uncovered. the actress later apologized. to listen is to accept. >> despite the. >> controversy, her. >> costar zoe. saldana is poised. >> to win supporting actress after sweeping nearly every major award this season. it would be her first oscar. >> i mean, you used to, like, feel everything. >> kieran culkin seems to be a shoo in for best supporting actor, with his fantastic performance in a real pain. and even though horror movies tend to scare away oscar voters, demi moore's performance in the substance could bring the veteran her first oscar trophy. >> i'm fine though. >> a young rising star and nora's mikey madison offers

tough competition. >> hi. >> i'm annie. >> perhaps the tightest of. >> the. >> four acting races this year. best actor. >> my buildings were devised to endure. >> adrien brody picked up a golden globe and bafta for the brutalist, but timothee chalamet, surging after winning the screen actors guild award for his portrayal of bob dylan. >> i put myself. >> in another place. >> that would make the 29 year old shalom the youngest best actor winner of all time, a record currently held by brody. so who will win? right now, the answer is a complete unknown. that's how i got so far. >> i see what he did there. joining us now, ceo and editor in chief of anchor media, janice min. she's a former editor of the hollywood reporter. janice, great to see you this morning. nice to see. so it is indeed a wide open race. that seems to be the consensus here. so let's tick through a little bit of it starting with with these with best pictures. and nora seems to have a little momentum right now

though. three weeks ago you would have said the brutalist. how do you handicap it? >> i'm saying nora, i'm calling it. it's had this great run. there are all these precursor awards, some of which are audience may or may not have. >> heard. >> of the directors guild awards, the producers guild awards. and nora has done extremely, extremely well. and i want to just make this note that we are living in an age of big studio films franchises. the creative people who vote on the oscars don't love those. nora costs $6 million. it was made by an independent studio called neon. and when the director's been out there giving in his in his acceptance speeches, he's been saying, i'm indie for life. and that's a very appealing message. >> yeah. >> we had mikey madison on the show just the other day. let's shift now to the best actor category. i'm driving the conclave bandwagon, so i hope ralph fiennes wins, but it does seem like it's a. adrien brody. timothee chalamet showdown. >> well, okay. we know that the fans watching the show probably want some timothée chalamet right. but i think we're in this moment where hollywood wants

oscars to go to people who have quote unquote earned them, who have put in their dues. timothée chalamet 29. i think that probably might rub some of the older academy voters the wrong way. adrien brody, the brutalist is the kind of movie that people love who work in hollywood. 3.5 hours, there's an intermission. it's an independent movie. same, same narrative as nora. >> boy. >> bring bring the fans in with that. i am a i'm a i'm a conclave fan as as well as the complete unknown. i do think timothee chalamet just did a did a remarkable job as bob dylan. i think what was so surprising to me was i never saw that coming. when i first heard he was doing dylan, i was like, what are you talking about? about five minutes in, you figured out very quickly. he just did a remarkable job. let's talk about a real pain right now, because you were talking about small budget movies. just what a

revelation. what a beautiful film. what what what what what great acting. and it's great to hear you say that kieran culkin has a chance of taking away best supporting actor. >> i don't think it's just a chance. i think it's a slam dunk. i hope i don't have to eat those words on monday, but i'm pretty sure it's a slam dunk. and i think what's so great about kieran culkin is he's when you see him come on camera on the real pain. he's a little bit like roman roy right from succession. and then you realize it's a whole other kind of performance, but still all those things that make. kieran culkin kind of impossible not to watch. >> and you were putting demi moore also as a favorite. >> i mean, so demi moore, you know, she was disgraced in her career, abused people, lots of sexist treatment. and if you recall, and i think it was in the 90s when she was getting these big salaries, people were

sort of using the sexist term. they were calling her give me more because she was asking for high salaries, high fees, and she went through the wringer and now she's back. and this is the kind of story that hollywood loves. it's a story about hollywood. it's about an actress who's desperately trying to be young. and, you know, we're i just think the nostalgia moment. hollywood's having a hard time minting stars right now, and there would be nothing better than having one of the biggest stars of all time take the stage. >> all right. we'll all be watching sunday night. ceo and editor in chief of anchor media. janice. janice, thank you again. thank you. all right. coming up here on morning joe, we'll speak with one of the stars of the hit tv series the white lotus. award winning actor jason isaacs joins us straight ahead. plus, more than 90% of usaid foreign aid contracts were terminated yesterday, cutting off $60 billion in u.s. assistance around the world. our next guest

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the details. >> physicians mutual. physicians mutual. >> tuesday. >> president trump addresses. >> both chambers of congress. rachel maddow and team will break down the. >> speech and. >> its impact at home and abroad. the joint address to congress. special coverage tuesday at eight on msnbc. >> we're going. >> to start. >> with breaking. news on. >> capitol hill. >> mounting questions over the future of tiktok in the us. >> president trump has. promised to carry out the largest. >> deportation force in american history. >> the surge. >> of international outrage following suggestion that the us take control of gaza. the congressional. progressive caucus. >> calling for elon musk.

>> to be fired from. >> his position. reporting from. >> philadelphia. >> el paso. >> in the palisades. >> virginia, from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. >> welcome back. we turn now to this important story. the trump administration is eliminating 90% of u.s. aids, foreign aid contracts and $60 billion in overall u.s. assistance around the world in the year 2023. the agency provided assistance to approximately 130 countries. the contracts being terminated include programs that provide malaria and hiv supplies, and preventative drugs to protect millions of people, most of them children. all supplies of u.s. manufactured emergency food packets for starving children across the world have been eliminated, leaving perishable foods sitting in warehouses unable to be distributed, and contracts supporting deadly outbreak prevention and response

for viruses, including ebola and bird flu. bird flu in 50 countries. those have all been cut. joining us now, dean at yale divinity school, greg sterling, his latest op-ed for msnbc.com has this headline, trump's usaid cuts are anti-christian at the core. and simone, you take the first question. it's so clear the impact here, so significant around the globe. >> so significant. dean sterling, i just want to quote from your own piece you wrote in that piece, the situation leads me to wonder whether some christians have made a single issue or two, the sole determinant of their political views, and by doing so have sold their souls in a faustian deal for political power. please expand upon that. >> thank you for the opportunity to join in this important conversation, and i appreciate the question. my concern is that many christians, devout people,

have made 1 or 2. >> issues the. >> sole focus of. their own political. loyalties and are ignoring core. values which they themselves hold that are so important. >> and i think that. the cuts to usa. id is exemplary in this regard. it's credited with having. >> saved 20 million lives in africa from aids or primarily in africa. now the. un is warning that with these cuts. >> that are now. >> taking place. >> that 6 million. >> people could. >> die from aids. >> within the next. >> four years. we're worried about malaria outbreaks. >> and i would say that. >> while christians may differ on some. >> issues, one issue in which. >> i think we are all. >> agreed. >> or at least most. >> all of us are agreed. is that. care for the. >> poor. >> care for those.

>> who are ill. is a prerequisite. >> to our faith commitment. >> so i'm calling. >> these anti-christian. >> because i. >> think they fly. right in the face of something that we hold to be absolutely central to our own tradition. >> well, i mean, what what we talk about on the show all the time are the red letters. i mean, it's not just sort of some general good feeling view. a christian should do a or b or c and make them feel better about themselves. jesus's own words could not be more explicit. so for a group of people and say this is a christian nation, it is fascinating that they seem to be throwing out what lies at the core. when jesus is asked by his disciples, who's going to heaven? who's going to hell? matthew 25, verses 31 to 46 he says, those who who feed the poor, those who give water to the thirsty, those who bring

hope to the hopeless. and he says, whoever you did not do, whenever you did not do that to the least among us, you did not do that to me. and that's the core of jesus's message. when asked, who goes to heaven and hell? so how does that square up with people saying this is a christian nation? at the same time, supporting these massive cuts that are going to kill the least among us? well. >> there are things like cognitive. >> dissonance. if i may. >> use a technical term where we sometimes set aside a view that we hold to. >> be. >> very important because. >> of other views that we hold important. >> i don't think people are. paying attention to this. >> in the same way that they. are to other views. and that's why i wrote the op ed, is because. >> i think we should. >> be paying attention to this.

critical issue. >> and just. >> to elaborate briefly. >> on that text that. >> you cited. >> the point is. >> is that. >> you don't. recognize jesus in these people. no one, neither. the good nor. >> the bad. >> recognize jesus in the people who are represented. and so we can't draw lines to say we only serve. >> these people. >> and not these people. if somebody is in need, we need to try to help. >> the important new opinion piece is available to read on msnbc.com. right now. dean at yale divinity school, greg sterling, thank you, sir, for joining us this morning. and simone, there are so many dimensions to this. first and foremost, of course, the human lives now hanging in the balance. but there's also geopolitics of it. this is soft power. the united states helping out other countries, not just because it was the right thing to do, it was, but also it was

strategic and smart to do. and now no longer is. >> we are going to see the ramifications of this. but it might not be immediate. we might not see it in the next six months or the next year, but we will see it maybe a year and a half from now. and when we see the breakdowns happening across the globe, i think people should revisit this moment and the callousness of it. i also think when it when we talk about domestically and what's happening, you know, i do want to go back to, you know, my good friend john hoylman's point that he made about the private sector versus the civil servants. the federal government is the largest employer in this country. it is not disconnected from what's happening with inflation and the rising prices and the cost of eggs. if you don't have a job, how are you going to afford the eggs at the grocery store? so this is all very much so interconnected, and it's not lost on me that elon musk and the president talked about rooting out die in the federal government. the federal government was the vehicle by which black americans access the middle class. it truly was when the private sector overlooked

black workers, it was the federal government through which they could gain just an opportunity at a good paying job. thanks to the civil rights act of 1964. and so all of these things are interconnected in what we're seeing. the majority of federal workers live outside of washington, dc, maryland and virginia. we're talking about the court reporter in savannah, georgia, or the nurse that works in the va in pittsburgh, or folks like my dad, who worked at the army corps of engineers in omaha, nebraska for so many years. so i do think it is really important that we think about the people centered in the middle of this and how it is connected to what's happening with the economy. >> msnbc host symone sanders. townsend. symone, thank you, as always. coming up here, we'll shift gears and dive into season three of the white lotus, the hit show which follows the exploits of various guests and employees this time around at an exclusive resort in thailand. award winning actor jason isaacs will be live in studio with us with a look at what to expect.

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>> picky eating with every healthy, tasty bite and the evidence. wagging tails. >> i feel really. >> lucky to be here, and i want to learn everything i can and bring the magic. >> back to maui. >> it's a wellness center. >> you should get. >> a facial. >> rick. the lady in the airport thought you were. >> my dad. >> oh my god. >> old friends. >> long time friends. >> not old. >> what happens in thailand? >> stays in thailand. >> what does that mean? >> it means we're. not dead yet. hey, man. hey, man. >> everyone comes. >> to thailand. maybe they're hiding from someone, or they're looking for someone. i think. >> the cosmos brought us together. >> i'm going to help you. bring you joy back. oh, hey. >> slow down. >> why are rich men always so angry? >> everything okay? >> it's just work stuff. >> what am i supposed. >> to tell my family? >> we're poor now. >> and daddy's going.

>> to prison. >> okay. >> that was a look at the new season of hbo's hit show the white lotus. after trips to hawaii and italy, season three travels east to thailand, where a mix of new and familiar faces come together at the white lotus hotel to enjoy vacations filled with rivalries, jealousy, danger and, yes, even death. joining us now, one of the members of the show's amazing cast, golden globe nominated actor jason isaacs. he plays timothy ratliff, a wealthy southern businessman on vacation with his family who finds himself embroiled in steep financial and legal troubles. jason, you made an appearance at the end of that preview, mostly just cursing. >> yes, the. >> most of my show. >> most of what i do in the show is not shown. >> you can't. >> put it out on daytime. >> tv. >> but it's adult television. >> we have the bleep button at the ready usually. >> for you to pixelate. >> as well at. >> various points. but anyway, there we go there. >> so this is as you sat down, you were talking about how just like a worldwide phenomenon this is. >> now when i sat down and went,

how do you transition from killing people all over the world by taking their medicine away and then talk about a television show? but maybe there is some kind of segue because it's about rich people being selfish. i don't know. >> all right. well, you you've done that very nicely here. >> no, this. if you decided that medicare wasn't working, would you shut down all treatment for every single person in america? or would you go, let's review it while it's ongoing because we're saving people's lives. how do you take money away from the entire world, killing millions of people, taking their medicine away? and then we'll review it, and we may give it back to you in a few months time when you're dead. what is the logic behind that? who voted for that? >> well, you just said, as you sat down, as we talked about our current state of our politics, that some of this what he's doing politically, the slashing of usaid, what president trump has done that was not part of his. >> campaign, his mandate. i watched in horror most of the campaigning, and he never mentioned any of that stuff. anyway, sorry, we're talking about a television show, but there is a tie in. i am playing an enormously wealthy and self-centered person who has really only thought about himself for most of his life,

and you talked about people enjoying holiday at the white lotus hotel. i do not have a very enjoyable holiday. i think it's fair to say. well. >> we appreciate versatile guests who can do both the news and their show, but we will go and spend a moment or two on on the show now. so this was the first few seasons a phenomenon? yes. you know what? >> you know i wasn't in them. >> i know i'm giving you. but this one will be even bigger and better because you are in it. that's right. so. but was there a pressure? anticipation? excited. what was the your thought process into joining the cast? >> oh, well, i read the scripts of course, and i thought, i'm not sure i'm a good enough actor for the stuff that mike white's given me. but then i watched the, you know, i'd seen the first two seasons and the standard of storytelling and the standard of performance is so magnificent. i thought, well, i'll throw myself at his mercy, and if i'm not good, i guess i'll get fired. >> talk to us about the thailand setting. >> well, we were we were in thailand. and all of my friends and any of the public think that we had a seven month holiday. but believe me, it wasn't the holiday. it was hot enough to melt this table. and when you're

in a big, sweaty room with a lot of people and tv lights for all day and covered in makeup, it gets, you know, it gets sticky by the end of the day. so we weren't sunbathing. we weren't doing stuff. it was hard work. and then the hardest thing really was being so far from our friends and family for all that time. >> halfway around the. >> world, with a lot more time off than than i've ever had on a job before. >> and what was was those moments were, were they bonding experiences for the cast? it's a remarkable group of actors. >> well, you go one way or the other, don't you? you either bond or you just say you feel like you're trapped in a prison cell with someone. lord of the flies. exactly. we made a lot of very good friends, and we made a lot of people whose numbers we might not keep. >> so tell. >> us a little bit about more. you gave us a brief introduction to your character, but talk to us a little more about who he is and the predicament he finds himself in. >> he is. i can't swear on morning television, but he's what tom wolfe called the big swinging garrison of broadway, of sorry, of wall street. he is a titan of industry in durham, north carolina, where he comes from, and he's generational wealth money going back for, you know, probably since the mayflower landed. and he gets there. his children are the children are very privileged. you know, someone who is you know, there's a monuments to him and to his relatives everywhere. his grandfather was the governor. and he gets there and

it looks very quickly like everything that he ever was is threatened and might disappear. the reason set in thailand, by the way, the reason mike set it there is he wanted to delve into questions of self and identity and spirituality and ego. and i have all those things very severely threatened. >> all right. well, the new episodes of season three of the white lotus, they debut sundays on hbo, and they also stream concurrently on max. it is a phenomenon. actor jason isaacs, thank you for being here and for sharing your views. >> thanks for having me. >> we reall acie it. and that does it for us this morning. we'll be back monday morning right at 6 a.m. eastern here on the east coast. ana cabrera picks up the coverage in one minute. have a good weekend, everybody. >> toe fungus is. >> tough to kill. >> and it can spread. >> it's time to start using fungi nail maximum strength. fungi nail is so. powerful it. >> cures and prevents. >> fungal infections. plus it. >> has. >> aloe and tea. tree oil to

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