the way i approach work post fatherhood, has really trying to understand the generation that we're building devices for. here in the comcast family, we're building an integrated in-home wifi solution for millions of families like my own.

in the average household, there are dozens of connected devices. connectivity is a big part of my boys' lives. it brings people together in meaningful ways. follow were. >> canceled. >> with president trump kicking volodymyr zelensky out of the white house. we have experts to tell us what the potentially devastating consequences of this confrontation could be. and there will be consequences. >> but first, we. >> want to play you the whole. >> exchange in full. >> do you? and now i'm talking with my friends in poland, and. >> they are worried that. >> you align. >> yourself too much. >> with putin. >> what's your. >> message for that? >> well, if i didn't align myself with both of them, you'd never have a deal. you want me to say really terrible things about putin and then say, hi, vladimir. how are we doing on

the deal? it doesn't work that way. i'm not aligned with putin. i'm not aligned with anybody. i'm aligned with the united states of america and for the good of the world. i'm aligned with the world. and i want to get this thing over with. you see the hatred he's got for putin. it's very tough for me to make a deal with that kind of hate. he's got tremendous hatred, and i understand that. but i can tell you the other side is exactly in love with. you know him either. so it's not a question of alignment. i have to i'm aligned with the world. i want to get the thing set. i'm aligned with europe. i want to see if we can get this thing done. you want me to be tough? i could be tougher than any human being you've ever seen. i'd be so tough. but you're never going to get a deal that way. so that's the way it goes. one more question. >> i want to respond to this. so look, for four years, the united states of america, we had a president who stood up at press conferences and talked tough about vladimir putin. and then putin invaded ukraine and

destroyed a significant chunk of the country. the path to peace and the path to prosperity is maybe engaging in diplomacy. we tried the pathway of joe biden, of thumping our chest and pretending that the president of the united states words mattered more than the president of the united states's actions. what makes america a good country? is america engaging in diplomacy? that's what president trump is doing. >> can i. >> ask you? >> sure. yeah, yeah. >> okay, so. >> he occupied it. our parts, big parts of ukraine, part of east and crimea. so he occupied it on 2014. so during a lot of years, i'm not speaking about just biden, but those times was obama, then president obama, then president trump, then president biden, now president trump. and god bless. now president trump will stop him. but during 2014, nobody stopped

him. he just occupied and took. he killed people. you know what the contact. 20. >> 15. >> 2014 2014 to. >> 24 2014. >> yeah. so he. >> was not here. >> yeah, but. exactly right. yes. but during 2014 till 2022, you know what the situation the same that people are been dying on the contact line. nobody stopped him. you know that we had conversations with him. a lot of conversations, bilateral conversation. and we signed with him me like a new president in 2019, i signed with him the deal i signed with him, macron and merkel. we signed ceasefire, ceasefire. all of them told me that he will never go. we signed him. we gas contract. gas contract. yes. but after that he broken the ceasefire. he killed our people and he didn't exchange prisoners. we signed

the exchange of prisoners, but he didn't do it. what kind of diplomacy g-d you are speaking about? what what what what do you mean? >> i'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country. >> yes, but. >> mr. president, mr. president, with respect, i think it's disrespectful for you to come into the oval office and try to litigate this in front of the american media. right now, you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines because you have manpower problems. you should be thanking the president for trying to bring an end to this conflict. >> into ukraine, that you say what problems we have. >> i have been to. come once. i have actually, i've actually watched and seen the stories and i know what happens is you bring people, you bring them on a propaganda tour. mr. president, do you disagree that you've had problems bringing people into your military? and do you think that it's respectful to come to the oval office of the united states of america and attack the administration that is trying to trying to prevent the destruction of your country? >> a lot of questions. let's start from the beginning. sure. first of all, during the war,

everybody has problems, even you. but you have nice ocean and don't feel now, but you will feel it in the future. god bless you. god bless you. god bless you. >> you don't tell us what we're going to feel. we're trying to solve a problem. don't tell us what we're going to feel. >> i'm not telling you. >> because you're in no position to dictate that. you're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel. you're going to feel very good. we're going to feel very good and very strong influence. you're right now not in a very good position. you've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position. and he happens to be right. >> about the very beginning of the war. >> you're not in a good position. you don't have the cards right now with us. you start having cards. cards right now you don't play cards. >> you're playing. >> you're gambling with the. lives of millions of people. you're gambling with world war three, you're gambling with world war three. and what you're

doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country that's. >> backing you. >> far more than a lot of people said they should have. >> have you said thank you once this entire time? no. in this entire meeting, you said thank you. you went to pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in october, offer some words of appreciation for the united states of america and the president who's trying to save your country. >> please. you think that if you will speak very loudly about the war, you. >> are not speaking loudly. he's not speaking loudly. your country is in big trouble. wait a minute. no, no, you've done a lot of talking. your country is in big trouble. >> i know. >> you're not winning. you're not winning this. you have a damn good chance of coming out, okay? >> because of us president, we are staying in our country, staying strong. from the very beginning of the war, we've been alone, and we are thankful. i said thanks. >> you haven't. >> been this cabinet. >> we gave you. >> through this. >> stupid president. $350

billion. we gave you military equipment. you and you met a brave. but they had to use our military. if you didn't have our military equipment, if you didn't have our military equipment, this war would have been over in two weeks. >> in three days? i heard it from putin in three days. this is something in two weeks, of course. yes. >> it's going to be a very hard thing to do business like this, i tell you. >> just say thank you. >> i said. except their. >> except the american. >> people, except that there are disagreements and let's go litigate those disagreements rather than trying to fight it out in the american media. when you're wrong, we know that you're wrong. >> but you see, i think it's good for the american people to see what's going on. i think it's very important. that's why i kept this going so long. you have to be thankful you don't have the cards. you're buried there. your people are dying. you're running low on soldiers. >> listen. >> you're running low on soldiers. it would be a damn good thing. and then you tell us. i don't want a cease fire. i

don't want a cease fire. i want to go, and i want this. i. look, if you could get a cease fire right now, i tell you, you take it. so the bullets stop flying and your men stop getting killed. >> because we want to stop the war. >> but you saying you don't want to see? >> i said. >> to you, i want to see. >> guarantees. >> because you'll get a cease fire faster than an agreement. >> or people about cease fire. what they think. they want me for you. >> that wasn't with me. that was with a guy named biden who was not a smart person. that was your. that was with obama. >> it was your. >> excuse me? that was with obama, who gave you a sheetz and i gave you javelins. yes. i gave you the javelins to take out all those tanks. obama gave you sheets. in fact, the statement is obama gave sheets and trump gave javelins. you got to be more thankful because let me tell you, you don't have the cards with us. you have the cards, but without us you don't have any cards. >> one more question, mr. vice president. i'm sorry. >> he's going to be a tough deal

to make because the attitudes have to change. >> what if russia breaks ceasefire? >> what if russia. breaks peace talks? what do you do then? i understand. >> that it's. >> a heated conversation. >> what are you saying? >> she's asking, what if russia breaks the ceasefire? >> what if they. what, if anything? what if a bomb drops on your head right now? okay, what if they break it? i don't know, they broke it with biden because biden didn't respect him. they didn't respect obama. they respect me. let me tell you, putin went through a hell of a lot with me. he went through a phony witch hunt where they used him and russia, russia, russia, russia. you ever hear of that deal? that was a phony. that was a phony. hunter biden, joe biden scam, hillary clinton, shifty adam schiff. it was a democrat scam. and he had to go through that. and he did go through it. and we didn't end up in a war. and he went through it. he was accused of all that stuff he had nothing to do with it. came out of hunter biden's

bathroom. it came out of hunter biden's bedroom. it was disgusting. and then they said, oh, oh, the laptop from hell was made by russia. the 51 agents. the whole thing was a scam. and he had to put up with that. he was being accused of all that stuff. all i can say is this he might have broken deals with obama and bush, and he might have broken them with biden. he did. maybe. maybe he did. i don't know what happened, but he didn't break him with me. he wants to make a deal. i don't know if he can make a deal. the problem is i've empowered you to be a tough guy, and i don't think you'd be a tough guy without the united states. and your people are very brave. but you're either going to make a deal or we're out. and if we're out, you'll fight it out. i don't think it's going to be pretty, but you'll fight it out. but you don't have the cards. but once we sign that deal, you're in a much better

position. but you're not acting at all thankful. and that's not a nice thing. i'll be honest. that's not a nice thing. all right. i think we've seen enough. what do you think this is? this is going to be great television. i will say that. >> all right. >> thank you. all right. we'll see what we can do about putting it together. >> thank you. >> sir. >> this is nice. >> venmo. >> can i need. >> the. >> back of your chair? >> negotiate. given that. >> we'll see, i. >> don't know. all right. >> guys, come on. >> please. hey, come on, let's go, let's go, let's go. get up guys! come on. move! >> right. here is a still image of the ukrainian ambassador to the united states. during that exchange, her head in her hands. joining us now, nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel, chief white house correspondent for the new york times and msnbc political analyst peter baker, new york times opinion columnist and russian american journalist masha gessen, and punchbowl news co-founder and msnbc political

analyst jake sherman. peter, i'm going to begin with you. a lot has happened since that moment. president zelensky was kicked out of the white house by donald trump, told to come back when he's ready for peace. there was a 4 p.m. event that he was going to attend in washington that has been canceled, and the financial times is reporting that he's been on what i imagine are emergency calls with the french president macron and also the nato secretary, mark rutte, that in addition to a tweet, an ex a post that president zelensky put out, which seemed to be answering jd vance directly. we can put it up on your screen. thank you america, thank you for your support. thank you for this visit. thank you potus, congress and the american people. ukraine needs a just and lasting peace, and we are working exactly for that. peter, beyond the immediate consequences, what are going to be the cascading consequences after that meeting? >> well, you know, this is a

stunning spectacle. i've been covering. >> the white house now since 1996. >> with the exception of. >> four years that. >> i was in moscow. we've never seen anything like this on camera between an american president and a leader of another country, particularly another country that is an ally, particularly another country that is an ally, that actually is at war with invaders trying to literally wipe it off the map. this is unprecedented in my experience anyway, and i think it blows up the relationship for the moment. what it says is that donald trump is more sympathetic to vladimir putin, who he expressed solidarity with in that clip you just showed. we went through the russia hoax together. he says that he does feel with president zelensky, whose country was attacked and invaded in 2014, as he pointed out originally, and then later, of course, full fledged in 2022. you have never seen president trump in ten years in public life. say one word about vladimir putin that came anywhere close to what you saw today. he's saying to president zelensky. and i think that suggests that america, after all

these years of supporting ukraine, has essentially signaled that it's switching sides. >> masha, what did. >> you take away from that? >> i'm sorry. >> what can we take. >> away from that? we, you know. >> we. >> have a. we saw a complete disaster unfold. we know that putin. >> has toughened. >> his stand. >> in the last. >> weeks, although actually his. been fairly clear. >> all along. >> not only. >> does he not is. >> he not particularly interested in peace with ukraine, but he will not even. consent to a cease fire. >> when. >> that allows him. >> to keep any less. >> that doesn't allow him. >> to take more. >> of ukraine than he has already occupied. >> and. >> his demands.

>> are basically that either ukraine is partitioned and the rest of ukraine is demilitarized. and de-nazified, where he is. >> using language. >> that is, that is a copy of the language that was used by the allies after germany. >> was. defeated in. >> world war two. so he views this as. >> being handed. ukraine and then. much of. >> the rest. >> of europe. >> he has. also also made. >> that clear. >> russia. the playbook for donald trump is pretty obvious, and most foreign leaders know it. go there, flatter him, you know, gently push back if you need to, but be careful and keep your mouth shut. obviously, vladimir zelenskyy is in a different situation. he is at war. it is more emotional for him. it is more visceral for him. it's more stress for him. and this is an important moment for him, especially after donald trump has been going around talking about how russia is the victim here and vladimir zelenskyy is the dictator, just flipping everything on its head. that being said, why don't you

think he came in and played the part that other foreign leaders have played? >> do you sense a change? leaders are. >> not staring down. >> the barrel of the gun. >> other foreign. >> leaders are not facing the loss of. millions of people who are currently under occupation. millions more people that putin. >> is demanding. >> to. occupy and with no security guarantees. >> what he was trying to bring up. >> was the threat that putin. >> poses not only to. >> ukraine, but to the rest of europe. and. >> trump, who actually doesn't have a. >> leg to stand. >> on with in negotiations with. >> putin. >> attempted to. >> put him in. >> his place. but trump clearly expects. is that. >> putin will be able to take whatever he wants. because zelenskyy. >> will admit that. >> he is powerless. zelensky, on the other hand, is a democratically elected president who feels. and fulfills. >> his responsibility. >> to his country. >> and he is not. >> going to give it up to.

>> to. >> a strongman. >> peter, some people are wondering if this was an ambush by j.d. vance and donald trump, that this was their intention all along. what can you say about that dynamic? >> well, look. >> senator lindsey graham came out here in the white house driveway a few minutes ago and said that he had warned zelenskyy against taking the bait, which suggests that there was going to be bait. right. we don't know that it was an ambush, but it kind of felt that way at times. it looked like vance was spoiling for a fight, that he was a little peeved at some of the things that zelenskyy said when zelenskyy questioned him. what kind of diplomacy do you mean? jd vance didn't like being challenged, it seemed like, and then went. after him and then that that triggered trump. trump then joined in, as you saw in that clip. so ambush or not, it's worth remembering that jd vance said very clearly in 2022 when he was running for the senate. i don't care what happens in ukraine. i think that's a direct quote. he has never been a supporter of ukraine. he has

always been an opponent of aid to ukraine. and obviously, you know, he played that out here in the oval office. i don't think i can remember, by the way, any vice president, even dick cheney, who was often said to be the real power behind the throne during the george w bush administration, i don't remember any vice president inserting himself into a foreign leader meeting like that, directly assailing the leader of an ally. and then, of course, getting his own president kind of worked up. most interestingly, of course, since then, you ask, what happened since then is, of course, when senator graham came out and talked to us, one thing he said was that zelenskyy now should resign or change. now, that's not a quote from the white house, but the white house sent senator graham out onto the driveway knowing what message he probably was going to deliver. and i think that tells you just where the state of the relationship is right now. >> yeah. and donald trump saying he's a dictator, he hasn't held elections. that's certainly sending a signal, a message that the white house wants somebody different there. obviously vladimir putin would want somebody different there as well. richard, i know you want

to weigh in on this. i just but my big question is what is what is europe do. does europe stick by this alliance with the states? i mean, does europe more forcefully break away from the states after a meeting like this? >> well. >> i think this was a disaster for everybody involved, except for vladimir putin, who was clearly watching this with great delight. vladimir putin was a little bit nervous about the way, or seemed to be a little bit nervous about the way things were going. and as president zelensky and president trump were talking about this mineral deal and it seemed to be making some progress again, you saw putin weighing in saying, well, we have minerals, we can play. we you know, we're open for business as well. but now russia watched this. watched the trump and jd vance over shout zelensky ally in need. who was coming there to try and sign some sort of economic agreement. then gets thrown out and humiliated.

there's no doubt that european leaders and other leaders around the world are watching this and thinking, well, they could be in those in that same position if they were ever in a position of weakness and they ever needed american help. so there's a lot of talk these days about europe having not only to step in to take the take up some of the slack for ukraine, which it has been trying to do. and we saw that visit from president macron, but also europe needing to have more autonomy so that it doesn't face it never finds itself in the position that vladimir zelensky found himself today. and watching that. and i've never seen anything like this either. i kept having that same question was this a setup or was this just a meeting that went badly that that, as you said, president zelensky took the bait. and when he started talking about we still need security guarantees. yes, we'll sign this mineral deal, but don't forget security guarantees because russia is going to come and invade us again. jd vance chimed in and said, you don't get it. your role here is to be

quiet, to sign and say thank you. and president zelensky wasn't comfortable in that role. and then it escalated and escalated. and i agree with with baker, i think this is probably the beginning of a new kind of relationship where president trump starts to consider putin the enemy. >> i have so many questions, richard. and again, i've never seen anything like that either. i mean, obviously with donald trump, you know what to expect and that it is going to be out of the norm, to put it mildly. but it felt very much like if you've watched any of donald trump's close advisers appearing on not fox news like stephen miller or something, they're there and they're it's like they're there to have a good time, and then suddenly they raise their voice and they get very, very stern and they start berating. that's what the jd vance exchange felt as i felt like as i was watching it, my bigger question, though, about the broader world order as, as donald trump again cozying himself up to vladimir putin. and your point was so well taken that if you're a foreign leader and you're walking into one of

these scenarios, this could be you at any moment. you had macron there earlier this week. you had keir starmer there yesterday. now you have zelenskyy on the phone with, you know, mark rota of nato, and you have him talking to the french president macron. you have to wonder what's being discussed behind the scenes because zelensky if he was sorry about this or if he was worried about this, it doesn't appear like he is that that tweet that he sent out almost feels like it's goading jd vance saying, thank you, thank you, thank you over and over again. here it is right there. >> i mean, here it is. i'll thank you. exactly. >> so is he looking for an invite again? back to the white house to get this deal done, or are they in discussions now to go at this alone without the united states? >> i think they're figuring it out as they go along. i've been in speaking with president zelenskyy's office for the last several years, and i've been speaking them to them again

during this period of trump diplomacy, when trump has decided to end the war. and when it came to the discussions in saudi arabia, when it came to the minerals deal, it was it is all been chaotic. they didn't know that they weren't going to go to that meeting in saudi arabia. president zelenskyy found out about it in the media. they didn't know how this was going to play out when they rejected the minerals deal, which, by the way, was offered to them in a non-negotiable way. they were given the deal and said, you have an hour to sign it, and if you don't sign it, you're in deep trouble. trump is going to be angry. they didn't know that was going to be coming. so each day they're trying to play catch up here. and i think europe is very much the same way you're saying is europe. have they made a definitive decision on do they get a breakaway with the us? it's a work in progress that we're just key elections in germany that saw the right wing, backed by the trump administration directly with,

with with vance and elon musk personally stumping for the far right candidate. the far right didn't win but came in second place in in a in a position that it could potentially in future take over a much greater role in german politics and in european politics. so to answer it, i think they are trying to figure it out in real time with a leader who is behaving very differently than he did in 2016. >> yeah, absolutely. richard engel, thank you very much. and thank you to you and also to peter baker. jake sherman, stick around for a second. we have to sneak in a quick break, and we have democratic congressman seth moulton on the other side. we're going to get to both of them. don't go anywhere. you're don't go anywhere. you're watching the breaking news here you might know harbor freight for affordability. you might not know performance and durability go along with it. we test. and then we test again. now it's time to put us to the test. whatever you do, do it for less at harbor freight.

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>> qanon has the number one cardiologist recommended f so sick. are you okay? i'm incredible! so many in-network docs on zocdoc. this one never rushes appointments. and that one makes patients feel heard. booked! sick! you've got options. book now. , democratic congressman from massachusetts, seth moulton is a member of the house armed services committee. congressman, what happens now? >> we don't know what. >> what's going to happen. >> but the. >> concern. >> of course, is that this is the beginning of the end, that putin starts not only walking all over ukraine, but walking all over europe. and this gets a lot. >> worse on donald trump's watch. why? >> because he somehow. >> beholden to putin, somehow beholden to the kremlin, echoing their talking points, a true puppet of vladimir putin. rather than standing up for our. >> ally, standing up for our

values and standing. >> up for nato in its defense of europe. this is a. >> very let me let me interrupt you. do you think he's beholden? i mean, i know we've been talking about this for ten years. do you think he's beholden or. let me let me ask the question. or is he trying to change the world? is he trying to reorient things? is he trying to make people like himself, like vladimir putin? i've said this before. mbs president xi, who knows? make them the main leaders in the world. those the empire states and everybody else are just bit players in this. >> well, i. >> just don't i mean, i don't i don't think the two are mutually exclusive. i'm what i was what i started to say is i'm not a conspiracy theorist, but there's just no other explanation for. why a republican of all people, i mean, republican, you know, following in the footsteps of ronald reagan would just completely sell out to the kremlin. it just makes no.

>> sense following the footsteps of ronald reagan. i mean, he can he can give that. >> that's my point. >> yeah, exactly. >> point is he's he's he's completely. >> thrown out. >> american tradition, republican tradition, everything they've. >> run on. >> for decades. just to be beholden to putin, that it just does not make any sense. now, i do think the trump musk vision of the world is one where america retreats, where we just worry about our own backyard. that's why he's so focused on renewing the monroe doctrine, renaming the gulf of mexico. it's all about our part of the world. cede europe to russia, cede asia to china. he really does want america to retreat from the world. that's the irony of what america first means. so there is that view. but i still don't get why he just gives in to putin, to putin. >> maybe a new continental order. he wants to make canada the 51st state. he wants to take over greenland. you know, he's talking about retaking the panama canal. just making it, you know, latitude, a latitude

zone of influence for a handful of strong leaders. >> yeah. and basically just to cede our leadership everywhere else in the world, which americans have to understand is dangerous. we've tried isolationism before, most famously or infamously. we tried it in the 1930s. and look what that got us. world war two. you know, we tried isolationism for a bit in the 1990s when we said, we don't have to worry about everything. the conflict is over. you know, the peace dividend. we don't have to. there are no threats to america's security anymore. and then nine over 11 happened. so this is just we're we're due for another big war. that's the frightening thing when you look at history and you look at, you know, what happened in world war two, then 20 years later, what almost happened with the cuban missile crisis? you know, what happened with 911? i mean, we are due for a conflict, and that's why strength and deterrence matters so much right now. and what we saw this afternoon in the oval office was

the opposite of strength. it was cowardly weakness, giving in to our enemies and selling out our allies, our ally ukraine, that stands so proudly for american values, not just ukrainian values, but american values. and we just sell them out to russia. that's what trump and vance are doing. >> we've only seen two republicans so far from my by my count, unless something's happened in the last couple of minutes, come out and criticize this. it's mike lawler, a republican congressman, your colleague here in new york, and also don bacon, also a republican congressman. those are the only two that have come out and said this is bad. what happened was bad. it was only good for vladimir putin. why is that? >> well, don bacon is no surprise. he's an air force general. he was the courageous republican who signed my letter to secretary hegseth last week, asking, why on earth are you firing these generals? just give us a reason. of course, hegseth hasn't been able to give a reason. he hasn't responded to that bipartisan letter. but the bottom line is that the vast majority of republicans in

congress, despite totally agreeing with me on this, despite sitting with me at a table with zelensky at the munich security conference just two weekends ago, and 100% agreeing that we need to continue supporting ukraine despite all of that. they're just so scared of donald trump that they won't do anything. so let's let's praise mike lawler and don bacon for doing the right thing. but since when is it such a sign of courage that you're simply able to stand up for america? that's how low the republican party has gotten. >> congressman seth moulton, thank you so much for sticking around for us. we appreciate it. and still with us is punchbowl news co-founder and msnbc political contributor jake sherman. jake, thank you to you as well for sticking around a little longer. let's talk a little bit more about congress. i know you have thoughts about the way that zelenskyy came into the oval office, but i'm curious about what we've seen from congress. this was a congress four short years ago that was pretty much in line, unified

against vladimir putin. republican party unified against vladimir putin, for the most part. not any longer. >> no, no. >> and i'll. >> say this. >> not judging any of the propriety or impropriety of what happened in the oval office, i could just say from the people i've talked to in the last couple hours, that zelensky's allies on capitol hill, on the republican side, remember, republicans have control of everything. they are dwindling fast. i mean, for lindsey graham to come out and i understand he is incredibly, incredibly loyal to donald trump. for lindsey graham to come out and say what he said means that the dam is going to is going to start to break. roger wicker, who was at a meeting this morning with the chairman of the senate armed services committee at a meeting this morning with zelensky, a small meeting that republicans and democrats had with zelensky deleted a tweet of a photo that he had with zelensky, saying it

was an important meeting. you know, all the things that senators say about meetings that they've had, i would not be surprised when congress comes back to this building on monday to just hear across the board that the that the except from a, you know, a notable. >> few that. >> that zelensky's allies up here are going to be far fewer than they were earlier this week. and it was already pretty tenuous this week with the far right of the republican conference in the house and senate. it's just going to be we're going to see a real a real fleeing because of loyalty to donald trump and because, you know, that's the main reason, but also because i think listen, i always tell people, katie, you got to deal with the government you have, not the government you want. the government we have is donald trump. and donald trump is in many ways very complicated, but in a lot of ways the most easily readable person on planet earth. you kno, what you have to do to make the guy happy. >> and zelensky. >> didn't do it. >> and that's the crux of it. that's what i've heard from countless, countless republicans

in the foreign policy space over the last couple of hours. >> yeah. you know, and i know that and i think zelenskyy probably knew full well that that's what he needed to do. so i question why he didn't do it and why he's coming out with that tweet that seems to be goading them. so it does feel like we're in a strange new world with a real definitive break here. we'll see. everything can always change, but this feels like an inflection point. jake sherman, really good to have you. thank you for sticking around. we will be right back. we've got more expertise on the other side. don't go anywhere. again, an inflection point. >> consumer cellular. >> is lowering the price for those 50 and up. get two unlimited lines for $30 each. that's just $60 a month. so switch to the carrier ranked switch to the carrier ranked number one in network coverage got eyelid itching, crusties and swelling that won't go away? it could be... demodex blepharitis! and we're demodex mites.

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ravi agrawal. ravi, yesterday you and i were talking about the meeting between keir starmer and president trump. and you said don't don't pay too much attention to the theatrics. i got to ask you about that today because we got a theatrical moment in the white house.

>> we did indeed. now, in as much as we are paying attention to the theatrics, this is a reality tv presidency after all. i think it's worth contrasting starmer's performance in this very same setting versus zelenskyy. starmer knew exactly what to do. he had the right script. he walked in with a letter from. king charles inviting trump for a second state visit. that is exactly what trump wanted to hear. there was pomp and circumstance involved. flattery, bribery of sorts. all of that is exactly the point of these meetings, and. >> the reason. >> why they're televised in the way that they are often not once, but twice with a lunch in between. and i think with zelensky today, he ended up becoming a bit standoffish. i mean, we can criticize trump and vance all we want, but if you if you look at it from the perspective of this was the point. the point was the tv. the point was for trump to appear almost like a monarch. the

moment where that meeting sort of went south, as it were, is when zelensky dared to break with that script, when he appeared defiant, when he said, you know, why don't you come to ukraine and see it for yourself? that wasn't the point of this meeting. >> what's going. >> to happen after this? because you had zelensky making that call with macron with mark rota of nato. do you see there being a more definitive break between the eu and the uk? and the united states, do they start trying to go go this alone? can they go this alone? >> can they? it's a very tough question. and the answer is no, not immediately will they is a very different one. i think this is where, you know, your first question to me about not paying too much attention to tv, or at least the reality tv of these dramatic moments. this is a good time to come back to that. all of this could be forgiven and forgotten. you never know. i mean, in in sort of the dramatic kind of tv world of trump, we

are just meant to be paying attention to all of this. and so there could be twists and turns to come. i think, you know, zelensky acknowledges now that he misstepped really in the performance of what was expected here. and you can see that already from his tweet afterwards, in which he thanked trump and vance, he thanked the american people. he's already trying to be conciliatory or is being advised to be conciliatory. so what comes next now is probably. real diplomacy. i think the lesson is that diplomacy wasn't meant to be conducted in front of billions of eyes. with tv cameras in the room. we're meant to report on it as journalists. we're meant to talk about it on tv afterwards. but it's not meant to be seen by the world in the way that we just saw. >> it's usually not. usually a president has the foreign leader next to them. they take maybe one question that is screamed out from the press. it's a it's a, you know, shaking hands. a hello to the cameras. here we are. and the press leaves. but

donald trump has changed that. he he holds court. he wants these events to be made for tv. he wants to be answering questions from the press. he extends them out. it's just not like anything any other president had done in the past. even what donald trump was doing the first four years of his presidency. ravi, really good to have you. thanks for coming back, i appreciate it. next, let's talk about the minerals and those. the deal that donald trump wanted. he seemed to really want that deal for minerals. does he still want it so bad and why exactly does he want it? there's another angle want it? there's another angle on ♪♪ well would you look at that? jerry, you've got to see this. i've seen it. trust me, after 15 walks, it gets a little old. ugh. i really should be retired by now. wish i'd invested when i had the chance... to the moon! unbelievable.

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>> joining us now, edward r murrow, press fellow at the council on foreign relations, elise labott and former russia and europe sanctions lead for the state department during the obama administration. and nonresident senior fellow for the atlantic council, edward fishman. he's the author of the book choke points american power in the age of economic warfare. elise, i want to bring your face back up on the screen because we got it for just half a second there. listen, what we saw today obviously is unlike anything that we've ever seen, and we're all trying to figure out the immediate ramifications of this. president zelenskyy is still in the united states. we'll see if he stays. is there any way that he gets invited back to the white house before he has to go back to ukraine? >> i mean, i think there. >> are. >> all these. >> frantic calls. >> going out right now. >> i don't. >> see how that. >> happens while. >> he's here right now. >> i don't think it's.

>> a. >> you know. >> kind. >> of dead. >> in. >> the water. i do. >> think that cooler heads will prevail. >> i think president. >> trump. >> does really. want this deal. >> katie. >> my understanding is he was talking to people this morning. he wasn't only excited about what it could do for the united states and all the mineral wealth, but he also thought this was a way. >> to help ukraine in. >> the sense that the americans. >> would. >> be in there. they'd have this. commercial cooperation, and then that. >> would kind of send. >> a message to the russians, don't mess with the ukrainians. but what, you know. i do agree with what jake. >> said today. you know. >> even though it was an. artful it was an inarticulate. >> whatever they. >> were saying to. >> him. the job. >> was for. >> zelenskyy. >> this was a make or break moment to come in and. >> just do what he had to do. >> and he wasn't able to do that. because why? he doesn't want to take just any deal. the man said he would resign if it meant peace, but it can't mean a ceasefire. it has to mean. a lasting peace. and i do think he. >> was baited. >> a little bit. and i. think that, you know, they're putting

all this. >> on zelensky. >> you're causing world war three. >> it's not for the. >> ukrainians to. >> stop world war three. >> it's for the ukrainians to stop advances. >> by russia. >> and that's what he's trying to do. >> it's for nato to stop world war three. if it's going to get started by russia. that's why nato was was established. let's talk about the minerals, though, and let's get into that, because i think elise is right. donald trump does seem to really want this this minerals deal. i mean, it does beg the question why he would blow up this meeting if he does really want it as bad as he claims he does. why? why does he believe that the minerals of ukraine are so essential? >> so look, katie, we are living right now. >> in an. >> age of economic warfare, in which of course the us is deploying sanctions against other countries, but other countries are deploying sanctions against us. and for china. >> the most. >> important weapon they have against the united states are these critical minerals. for most of the critical minerals, we're talking about graphite, lithium. >> china is the. >> dominant player. and so i think for trump, he. >> sees ukraine potentially as.

>> a way to get around. >> that and to insulate. >> the united. >> states from. >> she having leverage over him. >> and i think that it is. >> actually a. smart move. >> to try to invest. >> in. >> an ally as opposed to being dependent on china. and so that's why. >> the thing that really. >> kills me. about this. display that we. >> saw in the oval office today. it's not just bad for our alliances with the. >> europeans. >> but i think. >> it's really a gift. >> to xi jinping. >> really put a pin in that. we're going to come back after a very quick break. we'll understand a little bit more why understand a little bit more why it's a gift ♪♪ sonya earlene and marcia are among the thousands of real women living with metastatic breast cancer; doing what they love. and taking ibrance. ibrance with an aromatase inhibitor is for adults with hr+/her2- metastatic breast cancer as the first hormonal based therapy. ibrance plus letrozole significantly delayed disease progression versus letrozole alone. ibrance may cause low white blood cell counts that may lead to serious infections. ibrance may cause severe inflammation of the lungs.

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was a gift to xi jinping. explain. >> so look, what i'm arguing. >> in my book choke points is that china. >> has a. >> vise grip over the us economy right now with its dominance of critical minerals. and the question is, do we want to be that dependent on china, or would we rather be dependent on a reliable ally like ukraine? and so i think that trump. >> is actually. >> really hazarding quite. >> a bit when he's. >> treating zelenskyy the way he did in the oval office. >> that is a very interesting take. all right, elise, we have a minute left. button it up for us. well. >> i mean, it's not just on the mineral wealth. >> it's on everything. he's doing. he says that china. >> is. >> this focal. >> point of his. foreign policy. >> but whether it's the gutting. >> of. >> the government. >> you know, abandoning europe, usaid, it's. >> all this soft power. >> and it's really making. >> america weak. >> more vulnerable. having less influence on the world stage. and these countries were already hedging their bets if they. >> stopped seeing. >> america as reliable. >> and say. >> i might. >> as.

>> well go with china, whose. >> predictable, then. >> that really weakens. >> the u.s. further. >> so i. >> think it's both economic and political. >> and just in the last couple of minutes, congressman fitzpatrick of pennsylvania is the third republican to come out and say that they're not happy with what they witnessed. in fact, he called it heartbreaking to witness. elise, just one final thought on republicans in congress. is this the new order that whatever donald trump says goes, no matter if it's anathema to what they formerly believed? >> i mean, i think we've. >> already been seeing that happen. i think. >> it's going to continue. and i do. think it's. >> really. >> going to. >> be. >> to europe to stand by zelensky right now. and we'll have to see if america gets nervous about that. but i do think we're going to see the republicans continue. to talk against zelensky and in favor of. what trump did. >> all right, elisa, ned, thank you very much. goodbye. and go out and buy ed's book choke points. thank you very much. appreciate it. that's going to do it for me today. deadline. white house starts after this quick break.

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