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>> vip only. >> at fabletics. >> com. >> hi there everyone. >> it's 4:00 in new york. >> on an. >> enormous day of news. we come on the air hours after an oval office. ambush of an american. >> ally that. >> will reverberate all around the world and stain america's image for years to come. what was meant to be a photo op. >> with our ally. >> ukraine's president? >> part of a visit in which president. >> zelensky was to sign. >> a deal. >> over his country's minerals and in return secures support security support for ukraine. it revealed instead. >> that donald trump and. >> a j.d. vance, clearly on an errand for vladimir putin. >> trump and vance berating zelensky in public for the entire world. >> to see. after zelensky. >> pointed out the. >> facts of how the war in ukraine started. >> here's what happened. >> mr. president. >> mr. president, with respect, i think it's disrespectful for you to come into the oval office and try to litigate this in front of the american media.

right now, you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines because you have manpower problems. you should be thanking the president for bringing into this. >> have you ever been to ukraine that you say what problems we have? >> i have been to. >> come once. >> i have actually. i've actually watched and seen the stories. and i know what happens is you bring people. you bring them on a propaganda tour, mr. president, or do you disagree that you've had problems with bringing people into your military? and do you think that it's respectful to come to the oval office of the united states of america and attack the administration that is trying to trying to prevent the destruction of your country? >> a lot of a lot of questions. let's start from the beginning. sure. first of all, during the war, everybody has problems, even you. but you have nice ocean and don't feel now, but you will feel it in the future. god bless you. god bless you. god bless you. >> you don't tell us what we're going to feel. we're trying to solve a problem. don't tell us what we're going to feel.

>> i'm not telling. >> you because you're in no position to dictate. >> that. >> that's exactly. >> what. >> you're doing. >> you're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel. you are going to feel very good. we're going to feel very good and very strong influence. you're right now not in a very good position. you've allowed. yourself to be in a. >> very bad position. >> and he happens to be right. >> from the very beginning of the war. >> you're not in a good position. you don't have the cards right now with us. you start having cards. cards right now. you don't play. >> you play. >> you're gambling with the lives of millions of people. you're gambling with world war three. you're gambling with world war three. and what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country. this country that's backed you far more than a lot of people said they should have. >> have you said thank you once? no. in this. entire meeting, you said thank you. today you went to pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in october. offer some words of appreciation

for the united states of america and the president who's trying to save your country. >> what if russia breaks ceasefire? >> what if. >> russia breaks peace talks? >> what do you. >> do then? understand that. >> it's a heated conversation, right? >> what are you saying? >> she's asking, what if russia breaks the ceasefire? >> what if they. what? if anything? what if a bomb drops on your head right now? okay. what if they broke it? i don't know, they broke it with biden because biden didn't respect him. they didn't respect obama. they respect me. let me tell you, putin went through a hell of a lot with me. he went through a phony witch hunt where they used him and russia, russia, russia, russia. you ever hear of that deal? that was a phony. that was a phony. hunter biden, joe biden scam, hillary clinton, shifty adam schiff. it was a democrat scam, and he had to go through that. >> the message.

>> sent to our allies. >> and our adversaries. >> by donald. >> trump and jd vance is now. >> loud and clear, unmistakable. >> the pro-putin stance of america's president and vice president undeniable, unequivocal, completely. >> out of. >> step, not just with the. >> american public. >> just 9%. >> of all americans think. >> vladimir putin is to be trusted. >> according to one recent poll, but. >> also out of. >> step, at least before today. >> with the. republican party and his own cabinet. >> here's donald. >> trump's current national security adviser and current secretary of state. >> zelenskyy and. >> the ukrainians are. clearly showing the will to fight. >> i do believe. >> he's turning out to. >> be. >> a. modern day. winston churchill. >> no matter what, there always has to be a real, legitimate. >> ukrainian state that we have a relationship with. >> and i don't know why we can't begin to openly say. >> we will support them as long as. >> they are. >> willing to fight, even. >> if. >> it's. >> an insurgency. >> that was then. today's today. here's what happened after the oval office ambush, a press

conference. between president. >> zelensky and donald. >> trump that was scheduled for later this afternoon was abruptly canceled. video here shows zelensky leaving the white house. trump officials telling nbc news that that deal was not signed. trump lashed out at zelensky on social media, saying that. >> he can, quote. >> come back when he's ready for peace. end quote. unsurprisingly, the public berating of the leader of a nation that the. >> entire world. >> understood to be an american ally is. >> being. >> celebrated in moscow tonight. new york times reporting this quote russian state media are savoring what they describe as a public dressing. down for president volodymyr zelensky, a tv host said on his evening. >> show that the oval. >> office meeting, quote, looks more like a public. flagellation for zelensky. >> and something. >> that, quote, no one expected. from the united states president. so we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends, former cia director, now. >> an. >> msnbc senior national security analyst, john brennan,

is here. also joining us, new york times diplomatic correspondent michael crowley is here with me at the table. former national security council director for european affairs. retired u.s. army lieutenant colonel alexander vindman is here. >> he's also the author of the new book. >> the folly of realism how the west deceived itself. about russia and betrayed ukraine. let me. start with you, michael. >> crowley. >> and the latest on. >> how this day has. >> been completely. >> completely thrown into chaos in terms. >> of what. >> was planned between two countries and their leaders. >> thanks, nicole. >> where to begin? >> i mean. >> this was. >> a. >> completely astonishing spectacle. and people. >> who i've been in. >> washington for a long time, but. >> people who. >> have been. >> covering the white. >> house and washington. >> even longer say what i believe, which is that this is. >> something we've never. >> seen before. >> you know. donald trump.

>> you think this president has. >> run out of ways to. >> kind of stun. >> and amaze us, and. >> then. >> he comes. >> up with. >> a new one to. >> have this kind of a. >> confrontation in. >> the oval office. >> and what. >> remember, was. >> not. >> even supposed to be a press conference, but a brief. >> pool. >> spray. >> basically. >> a photo. >> op is. >> totally astounding. and. >> you know. >> it. it just. leaves everything. >> up in the air. >> the relationship. >> right now. >> is in a state of crisis. >> between the. >> us and ukraine. >> and for. >> a moment. >> before all of this. it looked. >> like. >> you know. >> it was going. to be rocky. it was uneasy. >> but zelensky. >> and trump might. >> be. >> able to reach some kind of a wary understanding. >> they were going to do this deal on minerals. >> that trump could. >> portray as a victory. >> you know, in. >> my read. >> zelensky was going. >> to come here. >> give him. >> a deal on. >> ukraine's rare earth minerals that. >> he wasn't. >> really excited. >> about. >> but. >> it was. >> a way to. >> try to buy goodwill. >> with trump, get his buy. in

to the process. >> you know, trump. >> yesterday declined. >> to. >> repeat his epithet. >> of dictator. >> as. >> it. applies to zelensky. >> when he was. >> asked by. >> a reporter. >> so it looked like maybe they were. >> going to. move forward constructively. and then. >> things went completely off the rails. and i have to. >> tell you. >> i don't know where. >> we. >> go from here. i think the first big question i'll say. in conclusion is. what does. >> zelensky say when he. >> does an interview that's going. >> to. >> be televised. >> on a on another. >> network later today? how does zelensky play? is he apologetic? >> does he try. >> to walk. >> it all back. >> or. >> does he stand firm? you know. he he was more. defiant in that exchange than i might have expected. >> he never. >> backed down and said. all right, let's deescalate. so a lot of. it here is, you know, how does he want to. >> play it. >> as well as. >> the white house. >> director brennan, he'll be on. >> fox news. >> with with bret baier. >> and i'd say a lot of fox. >> news anchors know the facts. bret baier probably knows them better. than just about anyone. bret baier knows that russia is the aggressor. bret baier knows that zelensky is america's ally.

it will be interesting to watch bret baer, as well as republicans like marco rubio, seem to capitulate from views he held 48 hours ago to siding with donald trump in this global, scandalous embarrassment for an american president. >> yeah, absolutely. >> nicole. >> this certainly was a day. >> of shame. >> for the united states. >> that clip, the footage. >> of the oval. >> office meeting, is going to be shown for years to come by politicians. >> government officials. >> historians. >> university professors. >> because it very. >> clearly captures. >> the moment. >> when the trump administration sent. >> the. >> signal that it was. >> ceding america's traditional global leadership role, that we were going to be abandoning. >> our allies and partners. >> that we were not going to stand. >> up to violent aggression. >> that takes place in ukraine by the by russia. and so, donald trump has. >> been. >> used to. >> individuals groveling. >> at his feet, which only. fuels his arrogance. >> his. >> threats of intimidation and his bullying. and president

zelensky, fortunately, i think has too much integrity, especially after seeing hundreds of thousands of his fellow citizens slaughtered and killed and injured by the russians, seeing most of his country destroyed. he has too much integrity to be sitting there and listening to the misrepresentations of fact and history that were being shoveled by donald trump and j.d. vance. and so, again, i think what he is doing, president zelensky is standing up. i wish more people would stand up because, again, it's just fueling these this bullying attitude of donald trump. and so, you know, it's very unfortunate and very disappointing that this meeting didn't go better, because i think it really is critically important that ukraine and the united states, under the trump administration, find some type of modus vivendi whereby we can continue to provide the support. but it's very clear that donald trump has decided that he is going to cede as much territory. >> as. >> possible and as much political initiative as possible to vladimir putin. and so, again, the signal it sends to

our allies and partners around the globe, as well as to our adversaries. it shows that the united states is no longer the united states of the past 80 years. >> we are lucky to be joined now by anne applebaum, columnist for the atlantic. and i. feel like you have been reporting out how europe has been bracing for this moment for months, if not years. tell me your thoughts now that it has come to pass. >> so greetings from vilnius. this is a country. >> where. >> people are very conscious of what's happening in washington and what's happening in ukraine. i think. >> all of. >> ukraine's allies, and all. of not. >> just europeans. who have a border with. >> russia or who are near russia, but europeans. >> who understand that russia has coordinated sabotage. attacks across the continent. >> engages in. >> sometimes daily cyber. >> attacks on different. >> kinds of institutions, infrastructure all over. >> europe. >> whose country. >> whose. >> propagandists constantly. >> threaten europe and constantly. >> repeat. >> you know, threats. to bomb

or. >> even. >> nuke european cities. >> i think everybody. >> felt today a. >> kind. >> of chill. >> understanding that this was. >> a. >> very different united states. >> i mean, i'd like to draw. >> all of. >> your attention. >> to the. >> role of vance. >> in this. >> in this meeting. >> i mean. >> people. >> are focusing. >> on president trump and president zelensky. but if you look back at the tape, which i've just done, it looks like vance is the. >> one who. >> started the argument or who who escalated the argument, rather. and since he tried to do something similar in the. recent meeting with keir starmer, the british prime. >> minister. >> i mean, i. >> think we. >> should we should. focus on his role. what why is he trying to ruin meetings. >> with european leaders? >> what's what's the purpose of that? i'm not even sure i know the answer. >> do you want to take a stab. >> at the answer? >> yeah. i think i noticed the same thing as as an that he was the spoiler. he was the one that picked the fight. it shows, frankly, how ignorant he is and

how how much zelenskiy has evolved over the course of the years, since 2019, when i first met president zelensky, i sensed him to be very earnest, a patriot for his country, but frankly not particularly practiced. he looks like a world leader. he's standing his ground against vance and trump and their rampant ignorance about what is going on on the ground, who the belligerents are, and how to work your way out of it. it's not that zelensky doesn't want peace. he desperately wants peace. he just knows how to get to. it is the exact opposite of what vance and trump are counseling. it is not complicity. it is not a commendation to putin, who is dangling, just saying the words of, well, yes, let's talk about peace, but has at no point indicated that he's willing to do it. he still wants maximalist outcomes. he still wants capitulation. but the mere offer

seems to be enough to offer for folks that are really ignorant about how to deal with bullies to deal with this. >> do you think? i mean. >> i. >> want to do something. before we go any further, i want to fact check jd vance because. >> he. >> has, frankly, since the election victories, had access to the best intelligence in the world. he lied about zelensky not thanking the american people. >> here is. >> that message of gratitude. >> i think every american family which cherishes the warmth of its home and wishes the same warmth to other people. i thank president biden and both parties at the senate and the house for your invaluable assistance. i thank your cities and your citizens who supported ukraine

this year, who hosted our ukrainians, our people who waved our national flags, who acted to help us. thank. thank you all from everyone who is now at the front line, from everyone who is evading victory. standing here today. i recall the words of the president, franklin delano roosevelt, which are, i think so good for this moment. the american people in their righteous might, will win through to absolute victory. the ukrainian people will win two. absolutely. >> again. >> before the disinformation from jd vance in. >> the oval. >> office spreads. >> too far around. >> the world. let me fact check some of that as well. zelensky

did not talk the united states of america into spending $350 billion. that is an accurate. the overall u.s. response to the war in ukraine has. totaled $183 billion from russia's full scale invasion. and that is a figure through september 30th that includes $46.5 billion for increased u.s. military activity in europe. the united states has not spent $200 billion more than europe. that's another lie today told to an american ally. that is inaccurate. the united states has allocated $18 billion less for ukraine than the total allotted by european donors between february of 2022 and december of 2024. and applebaum, what are the lies in service of and to? >> i mean. >> the. >> the idea that somehow. >> zelenskyy is. >> responsible for. >> the. >> war, that he.

>> started the. >> war, that he doesn't want to. >> end the war. i mean, these are. >> this is a misinterpretation of what's going on in ukraine. nobody wants the war to end more than the ukrainians. >> want. >> it to end. what they're afraid. of is that the war will end in such a way that their state is. left unstable or or becomes impossible to rule. you know, even. >> if the. >> fighting were. >> to. >> stop tomorrow, which, by the way. putin has not stopped fighting, nor has he indicated he will stop fighting. but even if it were to stop tomorrow, ukraine would still need some kind of guarantee, some kind of presence of the western world, of the democratic world, or, you know, of any of someone else with an army in order to guarantee that the russians wouldn't invade again in six months or six years. and i think that's what president leslie was trying to say. he was saying that putin has agreed to things in the past, but then he breaks

the agreements. so he's somebody who has a long tradition of breaking agreements. and so all that zelensky was trying to say was, you have to have something that ensures us that putin won't break. >> the. >> agreement again. and this is when somehow the argument began to escalate. so this is a this is a profound misunderstanding of what the ukrainians want. nobody wants the war to end more than they do. and they are willing to negotiate. they negotiated at the beginning. there have been secret and track two negotiations all the way through the war. you know, it's simply not true that they don't speak to the russians. so this this idea that somehow zelenskyy is at fault, that somehow he is to blame, which, as i said, seems to be coming not just from trump but from others in the administration is profoundly inaccurate. >> i want to add to our conversation former prime minister of australia malcolm turnbull is here. mister prime minister, let me read you something that liz cheney tweeted today. quote, generations of american patriots

from our revolution onward have fought for the principles zelenskyy is risking his life to defend. but today, donald trump and jd vance attacked zelensky and pressured him to surrender the freedom of his people to the kgb war criminal who invaded ukraine. history will remember this day when an american president and vice president abandoned all that we stand for. is that how you see it? >> well, i think it's. >> i think it's a look. it's a fair comment, but it's very clear that. donald trump and. >> jd vance, for. >> that matter. >> believe that. >> mike is right. >> they when. >> trump described. >> putin as having. >> made a. >> genius move when he invaded ukraine. >> in 2022. so if your view of the. >> world is. >> that might. is right. >> that the. >> strong can do as they will. and the weak. >> must suffer as they must, that is at odds with everything the united. >> states has. >> stood for. >> for. >> as john brennan said. >> for the last. >> 80 years. so we're.

>> dealing with a. >> radically different. >> united states. >> and. >> one. >> you know, where where. >> putin is. >> there is. >> no criticism of putin for his crimes. >> it's a. >> it is a completely different world. it is a dog eat dog world. and trump's view is that america is the biggest. >> dog, and. therefore it just can. >> reorder the world. as it wishes with presumably with the other great powers. >> like china and russia. but it's a. >> it's a, it's. >> really it's. >> such a radically. >> different landscape. >> that all of. >> america's allies. >> have got to. >> come to terms. >> with how far into the effort of doing what you just. >> articulated. >> reordering the world. did trump advance go today? >> well, i think. >> this. is this is not just a one off. i mean. >> this is. >> a very colorful example. of what we're talking about. >> and in a sense, it's a bit

where. >> people are telling you what they really. >> think and what they. >> really believe. >> i mean. >> as anne applebaum said, jd. >> vance provoked. >> this furor in the oval office. quite why he did that. i have no idea. >> you know, imagine. >> if that that sort of language was used. >> against netanyahu. >> the prime. >> minister of israel. all the same points could be made. >> it could. >> be. >> made. >> they could make that point to. >> every single. >> ally of the united states that every single ally, basically, they could say to the british or the australians or the canadians or anyone french, you're a smaller country. you can't defend yourself without our help. so you've got. >> to knuckle. >> under and do as we say. i mean, this is this is not. >> this is. >> not the united. states or the values of the united states that we grew up with. so this is a this is a massive change. and i and i think, you know. >> trump's trump's. >> it's one thing to say america

first. but i don't. >> think. >> people really understood. and not enough people understood how far that went. so it's a it's a it's a very challenging moment for us all. >> what is the degree of conversation absent the united states with the united states traditional allies this morning? it's morning for you. >> well, look, this is. >> this. >> this is a very that's a nicole. that is absolutely the key issue. when i was in office, i used to talk about sovereign autonomy. i believed that we should we australia should find our security within asia. i saw our security as being more of a mesh. we had to do more with our our neighbors with, you know, like minded countries in our region, including japan, of course, and not simply view the world as a series of spokes going into the big hub of washington, into the imperial capital. now, that was a fair

point to make then. it is. it is absolutely vital now that we recognize that we cannot count on the united states in the way we thought we could. you know, i mean, you can there are people in my country. there's an election coming up. both sides of politics are engaged in what i call bipartisan gaslighting, trying to pretend nothing has changed. i can understand why politicians would do that when an election is so close, but we've been mugged by reality here. we can't change the united states. we certainly can't change donald trump. but we have to collaborate more together, and we have to work together and, and work to ensure that we have the ability to defend ourselves if it comes to the crunch without the us. now, that will mean this is where this will really work against america's interests. and this is, i think, point that your panelists have been making, is that it will cause a number of

countries to hedge closer to whether to russia, but most in my in our region here in the asia pacific, it will cause a lot of countries to hedge closer to china. i mean, it is you know, you can see asean just saying, right? we can't count on the americans. we better the americans keep on urging us to stand up to china and resist china. or maybe we just better get more, become more accommodating. so it's a it is a it's a it's a retreat. this is a retreat of america from the world. and i don't think that will be good. that will be bad for the world, particularly the free world. but it will be bad for america as well. and it's wrong to i mean, you're essentially falling down on they're falling down on the side of, of tyrants and dictators. >> anne applebaum, i just want to pull you back in for the this with the same question about our european friends and allies. and i think for so many of these

conversations, you cling to how out of step trump is with the country. 81% of all americans distrusting putin with his own party in munich, lindsey graham said to president zelensky's face 11 days ago, you're the best kind of ally america has fighting our enemies, so we don't have to. essentially, 48 hours ago, marco rubio praised zelenskyy, and today they've all turned on him completely and helped trump advance roll the bus over him. how does that reverberate across europe? >> i mean, it's funny that you point to the reactions of people around trump, because i think that's one of the most confusing things for american allies. i'm sure that's the case in europe. and i would guess also in asia. it's confusing to see americans, whom everybody is used to thinking of as independent minded, free spirited, talkative, open. you know, those are the qualities of american politicians and diplomats that

people have admired, even when they didn't always like american policies. and to see this strange atmosphere around the president that people, you know, people shift and they they change their minds and they delete their tweets and they and they and they try to take back things that they said a day or two before. i mean, i think that's that's a big part of the story too, is people feel that there's a domestic change inside the united states that they don't really understand. and that's also affecting foreign policy. and it also affects perceptions of the united states around the world. >> to thank you so much for joining us. and applebaum and ambassador turnbull, your insights are vital. thank you for being here today. i'm sure this conversation is to be continued. everyone else sticks around. we have much more ahead on this incredibly consequential day of news. we'll look at how far apart the trump administration now stands after today from the rest of the world. and again, how far apart trump was from some members of his own cabinet. as we've been discussing, we'll also show you

some of that reaction from capitol hill and the republicans who days ago understood how dangerous putin really is. we'll also head. >> to kyiv. >> and talk to a journalist there on how the people of ukraine are reacting today, after three years of fighting. and again, this bizarre confrontation in the oval office, much more deadly in white house after a quick break. greg takes prevagen for his brain white house after a quick break. don't go anywhere. and this is his story. hi, i'm greg. i live in bloomington, illinois. i'm not an actor. i'm just a regular person. eight years ago, i just didn't feel like i was on my game. i started taking prevagen and i want people to know that prevagen has worked for me. give it a try. i want it to help you just like it has helped me. i've been taking prevagen for eight years now and it is still helping me tremendously. prevagen. for your brain. if you take or have taken humira for moderate to severe crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis and still have symptoms...

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security adviser to donald trump during the events that led to trump's first impeachment. john bolton. hello. i want to play some sound that that you and i were, were, were talking about. this is marco rubio and others on putin and zelensky before today's oval office ambush. >> russia is governed. >> today by a gangster. >> he's basically an. >> organized crime figure who. >> controls a government. >> in a large territory. there's no other way to describe vladimir putin. >> i think this entire invasion has been irrational. >> it's hard. >> to understand what. >> is actually. >> being fed. >> into putin. >> in terms. >> of intelligence and. >> reporting, and. >> how much of his own. >> propaganda he believes. >> what's at stake is, is repelling. >> an authoritarian who basically is saying, i. >> want the. >> soviet union back. >> i. want ukraine back. >> i want kyiv back. >> and then what's at stake is, is. >> making sure we don't allow it. >> to become. >> an article five. >> larger. broader war than

that. >> john bolton. >> your thoughts on folks, some of whom i imagine you know pretty well today, turning on a stalwart american ally, fighting a clearly defined and understood american adversary. >> yeah. this is this is really one of the most disgraceful performances that i've seen. and i think it's important to. >> understand that. >> in particular, trump. >> and vance. >> own this personally. >> this this is the kind of attack on a country that's defending itself from an unprovoked aggression. and they just unleashed on zelensky in public. and whether they planned. >> it or not, i don't know. i'm not i'm not that concerned. >> with questions. >> of etiquette. >> i am. >> concerned that the president, vice president of the united states have sided with the aggressor with, as michael was just saying, they're somebody who's trying to recreate. >> the russian. >> empire, something he's been very clear about since 2005, at

least. and now you have, sadly, both mike waltz and marco rubio in the administration and apparently saying, i just say, remember, this is not the second month of trump's tenure. this is the 50th month of his two year term. and this is the point when somebody does 180 degrees from understanding american allies to backing america's adversaries, that you resign. >> mark, are you saying marco rubio should resign? >> and mike. >> waltz. >> this is really the time to do it. if they don't get out now, i think. >> their. >> reputations will suffer for a long, long time. and that would be sad because their record in in believing in a strong american national security policy has been very good up until now. >> i mean it what? let me show you what lindsey graham had to say literally 12 days ago to zelenskyy's face. and then i'll

show you some of what he had to say today. >> i want to tell you and your people you're the ally i've been hoping for all my life. not one american has died defending ukraine. you have taken our weapons and you've kicked their. and i'm very proud to have you as our ally. so would, i think, complete, utter disaster. what i saw in the oval office. >> was disrespectful. >> and i don't know if we can ever do business with zelensky again. he either needs to resign and send somebody over that we can do business with, or he needs to change. >> tom bolton, what do you think of lindsey graham right now? >> it just. >> you know. >> this this is a line that the white house must have put out. unfortunately, i see a lot of republicans talking about it. but as i said a few seconds ago, this is not a question of etiquette. i could say that it was trump and vance that provoked it. it doesn't really matter what happened. this is, number one, not the kind of discussion you have in public.

trump could have cut it off at any point. which which leads, i think, people to speculate. maybe this is what he wanted. you know, in world war two, neither franklin roosevelt nor winston churchill were terribly enamored of charles de gaulle for good and sufficient reasons. but he was the leader of the free french and against the nazi regime in germany. he was our ally. in this case, it is zelensky who is standing up for a country that only is asking for its independence and freedom to be preserved. trump has said zelensky is a dictator who provoked the war. it's an alternative universe. what you heard from trump and vance today was advancing the russian position in these negotiations. >> i want to see if john brennan agrees with you. i'm going to go out on a limb and guess this might be an instance in which that is the case. john brennan. >> i wouldn't agree with john bolton regularly over. >> the. >> past several. >> years, because i think he saw

up close and personal the damage and the danger that donald trump presents to our national security. it is clear from today's events that either trump and vance are ignorant of world history, or are intentionally ignoring it, and their naivete when it comes to russia and their amateurish attitude in terms of diplomacy, it really just worries me. and i think it worries john bolton. it worries a lot of people who. >> have worked. >> over the years to try to keep this country strong, safe and prosperous. but donald trump looks at the world through a very transactional mercantilist prism. and i fear what he's doing is carving up the world into spheres of influence. and he's basically saying to vladimir putin, okay, you can have ukraine, you can have the eastern part of europe. and it does send a very chilling message to all of our allies and partners. and what message does it send to president xi of china? we're not really going to care about the taiwan. and, you know, if we make a deal, you know, he prides himself on being a dealmaker, but he just throws to the side all of the many

years of american values and principles that really have undergirded global stability and security. and donald trump in this meeting today, i think, demonstrates he's not interested in that. he is interested in only doing what it is that he believes as a real estate developer needs to get done. and it's atrocious. it's despicable. and things that that lindsey graham says spineless, unprincipled and again, despicable. >> alex, you have a little bit of deja vu sitting here next to me. >> i mean, first of all, i think that what i saw was maximum ignorance, maximum malice. i think some of the things that have been said by pm turnbull that this is about great powers and great powers carving up the world, the us being the most important power in the system, but in the same breath, marginalizing ourselves because we're cutting off one of the sources of our power, which is our alliances, both economic and security, and then ignorance, ignorance of on multiple different levels, ignorance on

the facts. who started this war, and ignorance on how to solve problems for the united states, how to make the us more secure. it is not by appeasing. it's not by serving putin's interests. it's by supporting our allies and supporting zelensky. what we could easily see is a trump. if he was serving the us interests and making wise decisions, is pushing putin, who is teetering in certain ways economic, economically brittle, military taking massive losses, unsustainable for really much, much longer. and they could weather another year or so. but putting maximum pressure. and you know, in this book, i take a look at a case study of 30 years of us relationships with russia and ukraine. and it's shocking how many of these things are just being repeated over and over, succumbing to hopes and fears, hopes that we could do more with russia. that's what what the russians are dangling in front of putin and trump, unsophisticated actors that

can't seem to understand, that, don't learn from the first four years and fears what happens if the relationship devolves, and repeating the same mistakes in in the poisoned kool-aid stage of mistakes where we're really wrecking all our relationships? it is. it is a little bit of deja vu. it reminds me of the days around that phone call where i went into. i organized the phone call and went into it with a sense of maybe hope, but a lot of foreboding that we would end up in a worst case scenario that materialized today. i'm sure those folks sitting in the white house, the professionals, felt the same way about this meeting that, you know, looked like it was all but synched up, but was blown up by j.d. vance. and now everybody, the whole world has to deal with the consequences. i do feel it, quite viscerally, that we can't seem to learn the mistakes from the mistakes of the past, focus on what really matters. it's really a sad day. >> john bolton does donald trump, it seems that there's. >> a lot.

>> of spin and bluster going on here. it is your diagnosis of what specifically irritated trump in this meeting. just because lindsey graham seems to be hanging his hat on the things zelensky did wrong, the zelensky didn't do anything wrong. and many world leaders this week alone have gently interjected facts so as not to be party to the dissemination of disinformation. and trump didn't react the way he did today. or did he need to do i mean, just tell me what dynamics you picked up. having been in the room for a lot of trump meetings with foreign leaders? >> well. trump believes and has said many times that he thinks if he has good personal relations with a foreign leader, then our country, the entire united states, has good relations with the with the other country. i don't discount personal relations, but but that's not the way it works. and it particularly doesn't work for people as cold blooded as vladimir putin, who knows exactly what he's trying to do,

which is recreate the russian empire. the trump thinks that putin is his friend, but in fact, putin thinks trump is an easy mark, as he has demonstrated quite skillfully in the past couple of weeks. the. on the other side, trump has never liked zelensky. he listened to putin and phone conversations belittle him as little more than a tv comic. obviously, the famous perfect phone conversation was what got trump impeached. and even even in in various circumstances, trump has indicated that that he has nothing good to say about zelensky. and it all came out today. now, this may sound non-strategic and not very well thought out. that's exactly right. it's about trump's personal relations with zelensky and his personal relations with putin, which sadly signaled a long time ago he was going to come out on russia's side. >> ambassador john bolton, thank you for spending some time with us. we're going to sneak in a

us. we're going to sneak in a quick break. everyone e home. it's where we do the things we love with the people we love. celebrating, sharing—living. so why should aging mean we have to leave that in the past? what if we lived tomorrow in the same place as we did yesterday? what if we stayed home instead? with help, we can. home instead. for a better what's next. oh, it makes me want to tear up. i swear to god, my business has tripled in the last year because of me sharing my videos on tiktok. i wouldn't be able to support the families that work for me now without tiktok. (♪♪) yeah it happens. that's why vision works. gives you 100 days to change your mind. >> it's simple. oh. >> anything else i can help you

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i'm not happy with the way that pg&e handled the wildfires. yeah. yeah. i totally, totally understand. we're adding a ton of sensors. as soon as something comes in contact with the power line, it'll turn off so that there's not a risk that it's gonna fall to the ground and start a fire. okay. and i want you to be able to feel the improvements. we've been able to reduce wildfire risk from our equipment by over 90%. that's something i want to believe. [skateboard sounds]

♪♪ chocolate fundraiser. with the chase mobile app, things move a little more smoothly. ♪♪ deposit checks easily and send money quickly. ♪♪ that's convenience from chase. tool lets you find homes close to. >> work, school. >> or even. >> grandma's house. >> don't all apps do that? >> not really. trust the. >> number one app real estate professionals trust. >> let me tell you, putin went through a hell of a lot with me. he went through a phony witch hunt where they used him and russia, russia, russia, russia. and he went through it. he was accused of all that stuff. he had nothing to do with it. came out of hunter biden's bathroom. it came out of hunter biden's bedroom. it was disgusting. and then they said, oh, oh, the laptop from hell was made by

russia. the 51 agents. the whole thing was a scam. and he had to put up with that. he was being accused of all that stuff. >> sorry to take so much time in the fact checking business today, but marco rubio, as a united states senator, wrote the most scathing and detailed report of donald trump's ties to vladimir putin's russia when he was on the senate intelligence committee. but those are just little facts. let me add to our conversation chris maher. he served as the assistant to the secretary of defense, lloyd austin, for public affairs. he traveled twice to ukraine with the biden administration. stay with us for one second. i want to pull michael crowley back into this. michael crowley, there is an interesting new clarity. is the word that alex has used that that i think matters very much to the american people. a lot of voters understand the american system to have all these checks and balances with it. and democrats and republicans who hold office

at every level, branches of government that can check any one against the other, and a cabinet. and the idea that any one like general kelly, who was a big check on trump's instincts when he started calling north korea's leader a little rocket man before they became pen pals and exchanged love letters. there's nobody like general kelly in this cabinet. the idea that there would be anyone like a general mattis, who would never lead the pentagon to do anything illegal. we've been told as a public that that will never happen again because they fired all of their jags, all their legal advisors. how does the world process today's events? absent trump 1.0 guardrails like honorable men like jim mattis and general kelly. >> excuse me nicole. >> that's a. >> critical point. and, you know, i think that people. >> are understanding. >> now what it looks.

>> like when you have trump, who is not. >> boxed in. >> to some degree, as he was in his. >> first term. >> by people. with mainstream. >> views who. >> don't see. constant disruption. as a. >> benefit. and instead of being boxed. >> in, he. >> is empowered. >> and he. >> has. >> you know, learned from his experience. >> in the first term when. >> he came to office in 2017. >> i think he was, you know, potentially a. >> little intimidated. he didn't really know that much about. >> how washington. >> worked, how the. >> government worked. >> so he wanted to bring in people who had loads. >> of. >> experience. >> who he felt could advise him and guide him and keep him from. >> making big mistakes. >> and i. >> think what he realized. >> was. >> no, actually, those people just got in my way and i can do this on my own. >> and actually, i'm more right than. >> all these other people that have been in washington forever. >> so what he. >> what he has done now is. >> chosen people who are not. going to challenge him. and so there's very little no real

evidence of any pushback. >> from his. >> top advisors. now. >> you do have a couple of. >> people in rubio and. >> waltz. >> the secretary of state and national security adviser, who do. >> have long records of. >> being extremely hawkish. >> toward russia, very critical of vladimir putin, very supportive. of ukraine. >> the question. >> is. >> is it possible that they are trying to do things. >> behind the scenes, or. have they changed their views. or have they essentially. >> thrown their. >> hands. >> up and. >> said, there's nothing you can do with this president? i'm just going to. >> you know, try to manage my portfolio. >> and it's an interesting job, but i'm basically going to take orders from the president. there's not much evidence that they're doing. >> anything other than that. >> i mean, let me just follow up on something john bolton said with the michael crowley. i mean, he said that marco rubio should resign because it's not the first month of trump's presidency. it's the 50th marco rubio, we could have played. there's an image of him today in

the oval office. i'm not a body language expert, but he doesn't look joyful or proud. but what do i know? but he did again, as a united states senator and as a candidate for the office, trump now holds stake out ground as a hawk on russia, as a defender of ukraine. some of his harshest critiques of democrats were for not doing enough to stand up to vladimir putin, and he is now the secretary of state for a country capitulating to russia and an unbelievable display of weakness. any rumblings that people think marco rubio should not be a part of this? >> well, certainly. >> rumblings that people who have known and. >> worked with rubio for a long time are. >> disappointed in him. and don't understand. i had. >> somebody say to. >> me privately that they don't know how he. can look in the mirror. this was somebody who has worked russia.

>> issues for a. >> long time, you know. knows that he has a. >> record of saying. >> that putin. >> is a killer. >> he is bloodthirsty. i believe he called him a monster. yes, indeed. he criticized the biden administration early. >> after the russian invasion for. >> not doing more to support ukraine. >> and said that we should stay with ukraine for as long as it takes. has taken. >> a hard. >> line on making any concessions to putin. and in fact, nicole, as i wrote in a story. just on this exact topic several days ago. >> warned during president trump's first term when trump was meeting with vladimir. >> putin and reaching. >> out. >> to him. warned publicly when. >> rubio was a senator. negotiating with russia is an inherently. bad idea. risky thing to. >> do because vladimir putin sees a zero. sum game where. >> as america gets. >> weaker, russia. >> gets stronger. so, vladimir, you can't do a deal. >> with vladimir putin. >> that's going to be win win or that's going to be good for america. this was rubio's position. basically, you. >> can't negotiate with this

guy. >> so what does he do? is he trying? does he feel like he can try. to convince trump to draw some lines behind the scenes? i think that's the big. >> question, chris. >> the view from the pentagon is today. what? >> it's a good question. >> i think. >> you know. >> on more than. one occasion over the past month. during this administration, i've sort of quipped that today is a good day for adversaries. >> like china and russia. and they're celebrating what's happening. >> in. >> the. >> united states. >> well. >> as you. >> mentioned earlier in the show. >> russia is. >> literally celebrating what's happening. >> in the united. >> states today. >> you know. >> what you. >> witnessed earlier in the oval office. >> was embarrassing. >> to treat. >> a country that. >> is literally fighting for. >> its. >> existence is disgusting. >> you know. >> american leadership. >> in this. >> world is what holds the. >> world together. >> it's what makes. >> the united. states of america

acceptable. >> and we have to choose if we're going to stand up. >> with our allies. >> and partners. and defend democracy and our values. or whether. >> we're. >> going to stand up. to dictators. >> like vladimir. >> putin. >> it's hard to. >> tell where we. >> are with that. >> it seems like. >> president trump. >> and now. >> vice president. >> j.d. vance are. >> on the side of. >> vladimir putin. and that's. >> as simple. >> as i can put it. >> chris, i remember coming on the air after the atrocities of bucha were first revealed to folks at the pentagon and inside the us government and eventually through the press to, to the public. and then i remember news cycle days later when we learned that putin had summoned those russian soldiers who shot civilians in the head and tortured people in front of their children, and other atrocious war crimes, that those soldiers were summoned back to moscow for recognition and celebration and awards. do you

think that? that the events that come next will showcase that sort of brutality? if russia is given the imprimatur of america's approval of massacres like what took place in bucha? >> nicole. >> to your point. >> vladimir putin has shown. >> us over. >> and over. >> and over. >> again who he is. >> and what he is all about. >> and i think donald trump very. >> clearly laid out his belief that vladimir. >> putin had his back during impeachment. >> and that's what. >> it's all. >> about for donald trump. i think it's worth this. >> has been. >> worth something. >> to support. >> ukraine for the united states, because. >> the united states has. >> invested in ukraine's fight. >> for its freedom. >> russia's military. >> is nowhere. >> near where it. >> was three years ago. >> putin's capabilities. >> have taken a tremendous hit. >> he has had to isolate himself on. >> the world. >> stage, relying. >> on people like.

>> iran and north korea to supplement them. with weapons and with manpower. putin is actually hurting in this instance, and. yet we. >> now. as united states. >> government, are turning to him and helping him. >> there are no new trump stories, the russia stuff he said in the oval office today was almost a refrain during his first trump presidency. >> absolutely. i think the consistency is shocking. it's he hadn't learned anything from his first four years. i think john bolton's point that this is his 50th month makes good sense. but there's something to be said about the way the u.s. has been engaging with russia for decades. six different administrations have all made the same mistakes. it's the subtitle of this book, unfortunately, couldn't be more accurate. it's about how the us deceived itself about russia and betrayed ukraine. absolutely consistent. this is just the end stage, the final stage of when you go down that road, when you

go down the road of transactionality, whatever the russians put in front of you, dangle you that you're going to get to this point where you forget about all history and you start to break the things that are most important to the us, our long standing relationships, things that focus in on european security because they will be there for us when we are in trouble, and because there are most important trading partners. and to me, what we have is a crystal clear moment of clarity that the us is not going to be here for our friends and that, frankly, it's favoring our enemies and the rest of the world has to adjust to that reality. >> starting today. thanks to all of you, chris, our director, john brennan, michael crowley, and colonel alexander vindman, whose new book is called the folly of realism, couldn't be better timed. coming up next for us, more on the oval office ambush of ukraine's leader today by donald trump and j.d. vance. we'll talk to someone who's been in the room for big meetings with foreign leaders like this. former national security adviser

former national security adviser susan rice joins us ♪ are you having any fun? ♪ ♪ what you getting out of living? ♪ ♪ who cares for what you've got ♪ ♪ if you're not having any fun? ♪ ♪ are you having any laughs? ♪ ♪ are you getting any loving? ♪ ♪ if other people do, why can't you? ♪ ♪ have a little fun ♪ ♪ and have ♪ ♪ have a little fun ♪ ever feel like a spectator in your own life with chronic migraine? 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. in a survey, 91% of users wish they'd started sooner. so why wait? talk to your doctor. botox® effects may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away as trouble swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition.

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days. rachel maddow is on five nights a week. >> more than ever. this is not a time to pretend this isn't happening. >> the rachel. >> maddow show weeknights at nine on msnbc. >> what we do is try to cut right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington that day. >> you are gambling with world war three, and what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country that's backed you far more than a lot of people say they should have. >> have you said thank you once this entire meeting? no. in this. >> entire. >> meeting, you said. >> that happened. hi again everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. a jaw dropping spectacle from the oval office today. the president of a fellow democracy. ukraine's president volodymyr

zelensky, was berated and bullied at length by america's president and america's vice president. zelensky had been at the white house to sign a deal that would maintain assistance from the united states and ensure his nation's safety, and hopefully be a step toward ending its war with russia. instead, he was berated and scolded, with the cameras rolling like an ungrateful, naughty child. this is a man, a war leader, who has stood up to the brutal, unprovoked aggression and war that russia has waged against his people every day for the last three years. who said two days after russia invaded and broadcast, he was their top quote, top target quote, i need ammunition, not a ride. meaning he wasn't going anywhere. president zelensky addressed the united states congress and received a standing ovation from every single member, democrat and republican. yet today, today, donald trump and jd vance publicly sided with

russia's dictator vladimir putin over the man fighting to protect his country, his democracy and his people. david frum, writing in the atlantic, says this at least now we all know the truth. quote both the president and vice president showed the us led alliance system something it needed urgently to know. the national security system of the west is led by two men who cannot be trusted to defend america's allies, and who deeply sympathize with the world's most aggressive dictator. we are witnessing the self-sabotage of the united states. america first always meant america alone, a predatory america whose role in the world is no longer based on democratic belief. america voted at the united nations earlier this week against ukraine, siding with russia and china against almost all of its fellow democracies. is this who americans want to be for? this is what america is being turned into. here's more. this afternoon's remarkable exchange.

>> well, if i didn't align myself with both of them, you'd never have a deal. you want me to say really terrible things about putin and then say, hi, vladimir. how are we doing on the deal? it doesn't work that way. i'm not aligned with putin. i'm not aligned with anybody. i'm aligned with the united states of america and for the good of the world. i'm aligned with the world, and i want to get this thing over with. >> i said, except. >> that there except. >> american. >> except that there are disagreements. and let's go litigate those disagreements rather than trying to fight it out in the american media when you're wrong. we know that you're wrong. >> but you see, i think it's good for the american people to see what's going on. i think it's very important. that's why i kept this going so long. you have to be thankful you don't have the cards. the problem is, i've empowered you to be a tough guy. and i don't think you'd be a tough guy without the united states. and your people are very brave. but you're either going to make a deal or we're out. and

if we're out, you'll fight it out. i don't think it's going to be pretty, but you'll fight it out. but you don't have the cards. but once we sign that deal, you're in a much better position. but you're not acting at all thankful. and that's not a nice thing. i'll be honest. that's not a nice thing. all right. i think we've seen enough. what do you think this is? this is going to be great television. i will say that. >> you're not acting grateful enough. you're not being thankful. donald trump to the leader of ukraine joining our ongoing coverage. former united states ambassador to the united nations, former national security adviser to president obama. ambassador susan rice is here. ambassador, your reaction? >> well. >> nicole, obviously, it's. >> a very sad day. >> and an embarrassment. >> for the united states on the world stage. but let's. >> step back and.

>> analyze what's. happened here. >> i think there's no. >> question that this was a setup. you heard donald trump say. >> at. >> the end of that clip you played, this is great television. this was a setup, vladimir i mean, excuse me, vladimir. zelensky was compelled to agree to. >> a horrible deal that would. have set ukraine's minerals to the united states without any concrete security guarantees. >> and yet, because he was trying to. >> improve a relationship. >> with donald trump, he. came to washington, he came to the oval office and sat down for a meeting. >> hat in hand. >> and soon after he got there. the vice. >> president of the united states. >> lit into. him and started a confrontation. >> now. >> i've been in countless oval office meetings with heads. >> of state.

>> presidents and vice presidents, as national security adviser, as un ambassador, and in other roles. i can tell you that the vice president or the secretary of state or anybody else, they don't jump in, hijack a conversation without the express blessing of the president of the united states. so jd vance did that deliberately. donald trump knew what he was going to do. and i think, as he said at the end, because he. can't help himself. this was a setup for the cameras. it was a play to his base, but above all, it was a play to vladimir putin to show fealty to vladimir putin and to try to humiliate zelensky. but zelensky didn't play along with the script because zelensky has got dignity and guts, and zelensky has people that he democratically represents. and as a result, he couldn't sit there and silence as lies were being told about how the war was

started, whose responsibility it was, you know. et cetera. et cetera. and he tried to explain what is, in fact the case, to suggest that he was not thanked. well, i can't count the number of times that zelensky has thanked. >> the. >> american people, the american government, the president, the united states for the critical support that we've provided. it's not about gratitude. it was an effort to humiliate him, to scuttle the us ukraine relationship so that trump no longer feels any obligation to provide support and to hand us interests and ukraine and potentially europe, to putin on a silver platter. >> why? >> that's a great question. >> susan, we're going to we're going to unfreeze you. i want to play some more of the of the

president in the oval office if we have more of that. we're trying to investor you unfrozen. >> i hope so. >> i mean i mean, i say why and i'll add this. trump had so much to say about everything he and putin had been through together. it was it was like a dictators version of we can do hard things. if you're familiar with that podcast. it was insane. >> yeah. nicole, i think we have to understand what happened. today is really a piece of a larger puzzle. we've seen this building, frankly, since before the trump returned to office. but literally so much of what he has done in his first five weeks in office have been to the benefit of russia and china. so let's let's review the bidding. you know, threatening our ally denmark in greenland, you know,

starting a trade war with our closest allies and partners, trying to, you know, create a conflict with canada and trying to pretend to relegate it to the 51st state. vance going to munich and basically trying to blow up the nato alliance. pulling the united states agency for international development 100% off the map and retreating, proposing to cut 8% a year from the department of defense and literally dismantling the federal government and eviscerating it. that is not in any way, shape or form in the national security interest of the united states. we are not only alone and alienated from our closest allies in europe and asia. as we heard from turnbull, but worse, we have aligned ourselves completely with russia, who is aligned with

china, north korea and iran. so in five weeks, we flipped the script and we are dangerously isolated and cast our lot with adversaries who truly do not have our interests at heart. >> i mean, andrew natsios, who was the head of usaid for george w bush, was on the program and made the argument that usaid keeps us safe from. it kept us safe from another nine over 11 in the years after nine over 11, because by stemming catastrophe and human suffering, you also counter extremism in some of the most brutal and hostile corners of the globe. that that that aid isn't just philanthropic, which seems to be donald trump's misunderstanding of it, that aid is one of our most mighty soft power tools, not just for ending human suffering, but for keeping us safe here. another person described this as the worst 24 hours in modern american history that we dismantle programs to

spare children from dying of malaria and measles, mumps, preventable deaths and diseases, and we dismantle the world alliance. what is trump's end game? if you're an adversary or an ally looking at everything he's doing? >> i think his end game is to undermine the security and stability of the united states. and that brings us back to the question that you asked earlier, why there's no other way to look at this in sum, nicole, than to see that this is a deliberate and comprehensive weakening of the united states in very short order, from a security point of view, from an economic point of view, from a diplomatic point of view, all to the benefit of our principal adversaries, russia, primarily, and china. and so i think the sooner the american people understand what this is

about, what this is, what's at stake, the clearer we can be. now, vladimir putin is not popular in the united states. 80% of americans understand him to be the vicious, cruel dictator that he is. but i'd love to hear more than one republican in congress stand up and say that this is not who the united states is. this is not what we signed up for. and more importantly, this is not making america safer. it's in fact, making us weaker and shrinking in the world. and it is going to make every american less safe. >> i mean, before the oval office ambush, republicans were on the record as recently as last week criticizing putin, calling him what he is, and praising zelensky. at least one republican senator, i think it's mr. wicker, deleted a tweet today and got in line with

almost the same. this is senator wicker deleted a tweet highlighting the meeting with zelensky and the bipartisan group of senators this morning, which he said went swimmingly. it went it went great. zelensky was impressive and courageous and brave. and democrats and republicans left that meeting with high praise for zelensky. he deleted this tweet praising zelensky after trump and vance berated him in what you described as a setup. what does that send to the world? that message? >> well, it's tragic. you know, senator wicker knows better. so do many of the senators on both sides of the aisle that participated in that meeting earlier. >> there's that tweet up on the screen again. this was from this morning's republican senator wicker tweeted today. several u.s. senators had the opportunity to meet with

president zelensky to discuss ukraine's future and the mineral deal brokered by president trump. this is a huge step forward in securing mutual prosperity and peace for americans and ukrainians. senator wicker tweeted that and then deleted it. susan rice. >> deleted it. knowing better, as do so many of his republican colleagues, as well as democrats. and they they are just kowtowing to a leader out of out of fear and cowardice and selling out the national interest in the process. i, you know, for all this talk we've heard for decades about how strong and muscular republicans are on national security and defense, how they stand for freedom, as ronald reagan did, and up for democracy. they have just folded. and they are complicit in the undermining of our national security and our national interests. >> what are your worries about what happens now, now that putin and vance have done this? we're

at the hinge point, right? it will forever be for ukraine. what happened before that meeting and what happens after? what is the risk now for the ukrainian people? >> well, i worry about the ukrainian people. i worry about europe and i worry about the wider world. for the ukrainian people, they have no choice but to continue to do all that they can to defend themselves. they are facing, you know, an extremely powerful and hostile aggressor who now twice has invaded their country and their right to believe he'll do it again if given the opportunity. so they're going to have no choice except to continue to defend themselves. and one can hope that that there might be some path to patching things up. but i think that's very hard to envision. i don't think donald trump wants that. i think he wants the outcome he got today. and that means that europe and our other democratic allies or

erstwhile allies will need to do as much as they possibly can. to continue to support ukraine. people don't recall that europe already has provided more, billions more in assistance to ukraine than the united states has economic and military. they're going to need to continue to carry the load while the united states casts its lot with vladimir putin. >> ambassador susan rice, it is very, very, very good to see you. we're going to need you. i hope we can call on you again. >> thanks, nicole. i wish it were under happier circumstances. >> me too. me too. when we come back, we'll get reaction to ambassador rice's comments and to the events in the oval office and in washington today from time magazine, simon schuster. he's been in contact with his sources, including ukrainian government officials. will be our guest. live from kyiv after a very short break. deadline. white house continues after a white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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>> expensive medicine or surgery. >> had. >> insurance from pumpkin can help. >> go to. >> pumpkin dot care. >> tuesday, president. >> trump addresses both chambers of congress. rachel maddow and team will break down the speech and its impact at home and abroad. the joint address to congress. special coverage tuesday at eight on msnbc. >> the role of the press is to follow the story. as the story goes. >> headlines around the world have already captured the embarrassment that unfolded today here in these united states, with countries, including many of our allies, going to bed or just waking up to read. trump kicks zelensky out of white house after catastrophic meeting where this, quote, an oval office shouting match and an oval office blow up. joining us now, senior correspondent for time magazine, covering russia and ukraine and author of the showman inside the invasion that shook the world and made a leader of volodymyr zelensky. simon schuster joins us live from kyiv. tell me what

you're hearing from ukraine. >> yeah. >> thank you. >> the mood here is tough, actually. >> when. >> this news. >> came in. >> of this. >> dispute in the oval. >> office, i was having dinner with a senior military officer and both of our phones started blowing up with the news. and, you know, the. >> first reaction. >> was fear. concern. i mean, on. >> the one. >> hand, this officer a colonel. he was, you know, that's our guy. >> he felt. >> proud of his president. >> but on the other hand, his mind immediately went to, what does. this mean. >> for us, for our military. >> for ukraine's ability to defend itself? are we going to get any more military support? >> you know, what does. >> this mean for the intelligence sharing that comes and is very vital to ukraine's defense? so his. >> mind went there a little later this evening, i met with one of zelensky's advisers. actually an adviser on communications. >> and, you know, his position was. >> look. >> what was. >> our president supposed.

>> to do. >> when he. >> is put in this. >> humiliating, demeaning position? >> he had to. >> speak up. >> and i think. >> that's. >> what many. >> ukrainians expect of him and have come. >> to expect. >> and that's what he did. >> former u.s. ambassador to the un, susan rice, just said on our broadcast that she believes this was a set up, that these meetings are so carefully scripted, especially for the part of the meeting. it's only part of it where the full press contingent is in there from both sides. filming. is that a theory being explored by the ukrainians? >> that's interesting. >> yeah. i mean. >> i think. >> ambassador rice. >> you know. >> knows the ins and. >> outs of. >> the white. house way. >> better than. >> i do. but i know president. >> zelensky pretty well. >> and from working on. his biography. >> writing. >> writing. >> his. >> biography, i. >> got to know him. and this. >> was in. >> many ways. >> pretty classic zelensky. >> one thing. >> that he is known for and has been known for throughout. >> his life. >> is, you know, speaking to everyone as an equal. >> he has trouble. with protocol.

>> pomp, and he. >> has. >> trouble with. >> people. >> who talk down to him. he expects to be. spoken to as an equal, and he also tends to show respect to even. >> you. >> know, regular people. he meets his. >> drivers, his various staff. >> he tries to. >> to speak to them as, as. >> equals. >> so he he doesn't have a good time, an easy time, sort of. >> following the rules. >> of diplomatic. protocol and courtesy. he's straightforward, he's. >> blunt, he's stubborn. >> he does have. >> trouble kind. >> of holding. >> back sometimes. >> you know, we've been. >> hearing for. >> years about these kinds of exchanges. >> happening. >> emotional exchanges. >> behind the scenes. >> behind closed doors, even at a very high. >> level between zelensky. >> and foreign leaders. >> as he. >> continues to. >> ask for. >> their support. >> but now it's. >> all. >> out in the open. and i don't think ukrainians are surprised. >> this is the zelensky. >> in many. >> ways that they. >> know. >> but they. >> are afraid. >> of what the consequences are going to be. >> the consequences are already

taking shape. again, i don't know the sequencing of this decision, but nbc news is reporting this afternoon that the state department has terminated u.s support of ukraine's energy grid restoration. goes on to say the state department this week terminated a u.s. agency for international development initiative that has invested hundreds of millions of dollars to help restore ukraine's energy grid from attacks by the russian military, according to two usaid officials. trump and bans exaggerated the amount of money that has gone to ukraine and undercounted the amount of money that has been paid by the european allies. why do they believe the exaggerations and the misinformation are about from the ukrainian side? >> i mean, this. >> has. been going. >> on for the last couple of weeks as ukraine and the us. >> have. >> negotiated this deal that was

supposed to be signed. >> today in. >> the white. >> house between president trump and. >> president zelensky. >> the ukrainians. >> have. >> been facing a lot of. >> attacks, a lot. >> of disinformation. >> president zelenskyy. >> at one point actually. >> said that president. >> trump, after one of his attacks, he. appears to be living. >> in a world. >> of. >> disinformation about ukraine. he's confused about the reality. >> here in. >> kyiv and in this country and in. >> the. >> war zone. >> so they've sort of. >> come to terms with. that being part of. >> doing business with. >> the trump administration. but really. everyone here thought. that we had gotten over that, that the two sides had negotiated. >> this deal. and this deal, once it was signed, was going to open up a lot of. opportunities for ukraine to maneuver, to keep the united states. >> on its. >> side and to try to. >> get a ceasefire. >> get an end to. >> this war that would not amount to. >> a capitulation. >> or a humiliation. >> for the ukrainian people. >> that's what everyone was really hoping for and counting. >> on in this meeting. >> and now everyone i talked to. >> here tonight. >> just doesn't know what is coming next. around the corner.

there's really a state. of shock. >> and confusion here. >> what is your expectation from president zelensky in about 35 minutes, when he appears with bret baier on fox news? >> i think. >> he's going to hold his own. he's going to. you know, hold his. >> head high, you. >> know, from. >> from. >> the. people i've talked to again today. he senses. >> that for the most part. >> ukrainian people. >> are behind him. he does this everywhere he goes. every trip he takes, he. >> channels and. >> brings with him the. >> pain. >> frustration, anger of the ukrainian. people who have suffered through three years of horrific russian invasion. >> he channels that and. >> he tries to express. >> it to everyone he meets. and i think that's. >> what he was trying. >> to do. in speaking. >> to. >> vice president vance and to president trump today as well. so i think. >> you. >> know. >> he's going. >> to come to. >> his his his. >> appearance on. fox news.

>> with the confidence, knowing that. >> his people are primarily behind. >> him. >> even though. >> a lot of them are very scared of what this. >> exchange is going to mean for. >> them, for their military and for their survival. >> i have three pages, and i'm sure you have access to this too. of all the people that stand with him after today, president of the european commission, your dignity honors the bravery of the ukrainian people. chancellor of germany, french president macron, prime minister of sweden, chancellor and foreign minister of austria, minister of foreign affairs of ireland. prime minister of belgium. it goes on for four pages. is there a sense that america is out of the pro-democracy coalition? >> that's a. >> tough one. but i do think. that this. >> is. >> going to. >> reveal much. >> more clearly the. >> wedge. >> that has already. >> been driven. >> in the last. >> month or so. >> between the united states and europe. you know, we saw.

>> it very clearly. >> at the. >> munich security conference where vice president vance confronted america's european allies very starkly. and since then, that division has begun to grow, and the europeans have begun to say some pretty dramatic things about. >> wanting to become. >> more independent from the united. >> states. >> to take. >> care of their own affairs when it comes to defense, and so on. we'll see if they're able to muster the unity and the resources that it. >> will take to do that. >> but clearly, from what they're saying today, they're. >> taking zelenskyy's side. >> and i wouldn't be surprised. >> if a lot of. >> them felt like he was also voicing a lot of the frustration that. >> they. have felt. in hearing from. >> vice president vance in munich. >> recently, and in the ways. >> that president trump. >> has. been talking to the europeans. >> i think a lot of them are going to. >> feel. >> that zelenskyy. >> was, in some ways speaking up for them as well. >> simon schuster, really, really important to get to hear from you and all your great reporting from kyiv. stay safe. and thank you for joining us.

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trump, jd vance and president zelensky inside. >> the white house was. >> an ambush. it was a planned ambush designed to embarrass. president zelensky in order. to benefit vladimir putin. that was an embarrassment. that was an

abomination. >> what you. >> watched was american power being destroyed in the world as. >> everybody watches president. >> trump become a lapdog for a brutal dictator in moscow. >> there are not a lot of news cycles in which a leading democrat agrees with a lifelong conservative republican, john bolton. but that is something we have been hearing for the last hour and a half, as we've been covering the extraordinary ambush, to use the senator's word, in the oval office, in which donald trump and jd vance angrily and publicly at the point of the meeting where the press was in the oval office, berated ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky before trump says he had him tossed out of the white house with no deal for peace. let's bring in our coverage. ranking member of the house intelligence committee, congressman jim himes of connecticut. your thoughts? >> nicole. >> you'll you, like so many americans, will remember when. or at least recall when jfk in

1961, in his inaugural address, really summarized who we are as a nation when he said, we will pay any price, we will bear any burden to assure the survival and success of. >> liberty. >> bear any price, pay any price, bear any burden to for the survival and success of liberty. what you saw in the oval office today was the inversion of that. we will stand with a bloody, murderous dictator who is dedicated to the extinguishment of liberty in ukraine and beyond. and so, senator murphy is. right when he says that the world got a lot more dangerous today because of president trump's behavior. >> i'll ask you a question. i asked susan rice. someone else pointed out today that these have been the worst 24 hours for our country in 100 years, with the canceling out of every program designed to aid the most vulnerable. can you hear us, congressman? we're going to try to get the congressman back. i

want to show all of you what's happening out there. if you think this is just an issue that impacts our friends and allies around the world, here's how it's impacting constituents of republican member of congress kevin hern of oklahoma. >> personally, do you support ukraine or russia? >> well. >> here's what i know. >> it's not easy, ma'am. it's not easy. >> it's not easy. >> jen psaki a dictator. >> yes or no? >> that part. i have a problem with that statement. >> yes. >> did ukraine start. >> the war? >> well. >> it's simple. >> should ukraine. >> start the war? >> yes or no? support ukraine? >> did ukraine. >> start the war? yes. >> the. >> let him answer me. >> well. >> ma'am, i will just. >> hang on a second. >> is that your question? did they start the war? >> that's part of it. i want to. >> know where you stand. >> it's not part. >> of. >> ukraine or russia. we have been supporting zelensky for

years now. three years. who started this? now we're isolated or he is isolating america. he's he's calling names. where do. >> you start? >> let me just say this. this is not the tactic that i would use to try to solve the problem. >> when i was your colleague, republican house member from oklahoma named kevin hern facing his constituents yesterday, the country does not like or trust vladimir putin. 81% of americans say he can't be trusted. donald trump's party before this oval office meeting was on the record and in public ten, 11 days ago, some of them in munich, calling zelensky to his face the best kind of ally. because you fight our adversaries so we don't have to. that was lindsey graham, who today rebuked president zelensky and say he should, quote, resign. what happens to your

republican colleagues when trump demands that they fall into line, not just behind him, but behind putin? >> yeah. well, you know, lindsey graham's performance today and frankly, marco rubio, you know, i knew marco rubio well because he was the chairman. of the senate intelligence committee or ranking member of the senate intelligence committee. they have capitulated 100%, as have almost all of my republican colleagues, to whatever donald trump wants. now, that's sort of interesting on taxes or on, you know, you know, cutting medicaid. but these are people who grew out of the tradition of ronald reagan, who stood up to the soviet union, a party that has always stood up against communist and stalinist dictators. but for marco rubio and lindsey graham and pretty much every other republican. >> you can look at their social. >> media tonight. they will be finding ways to twist themselves into pretzels to say that what donald trump did was okay and oh, zelensky was rude. don't look at the fact that he's lost

70,000. ukrainians in a war. he didn't wear a suit in the white house. these are the things. >> that. pretzel your soul. >> and pretty much. >> every republican. >> in congress is undertaking that right now. >> senator wicker deleted a post that he had put up a few hours ago with a photo from a bipartisan meeting with with president zelensky. what does it mean for the ukrainians if republicans are erasing the history of diplomacy that happened this morning before trump and vance ambushed zelensky? >> well, you know, it's very clear after today that. we're out of the game. and i'm embarrassed to say that again. i would go back to kennedy. we would pay any price and bear any burden to ensure the survival and success of liberty. we're out of the game. we are out of that game entirely. what really worries me, nicole, is what this means for putin. imagine two months ago and you. >> know, putin. >> gets to write the script. in other words, come up with the most fantastic thing that could

happen to russia. >> you wouldn't. vladimir putin couldn't. dream that this might be what would happen, that the. united states would suddenly flip on zelensky and back vladimir putin again. the celebrations in moscow today and off into the future are going to be out of control, because we are now acting and the president is acting in the interests of vladimir putin and against the interests of liberty and freedom. >> do you have a theory as to why? >> i do, i do. you know, donald trump. i've watched him for a long time. he doesn't read history or know the traditions of the united states. what he does is he loves at a visceral gut level, loves strength. and he looks at putin, who is unconstrained in his dictatorial power. he looks at xi. watch what happens in china. he looks at xi, who is unconstrained in his dictatorial power. and he says, i want to be that guy. and he looks at zelensky and he looks at taiwan, i think, and says, look, that's weak. those

countries are small and weak. they don't have, you know, fleets. >> of. >> of bombers and stuff. and so for him, it's just, you know, strength is good and weakness and vulnerability is bad. and that is going to be the driving principle, by the way, domestic policy as well. we're about to pass budget bills which hand staggering billions of dollars to the very wealthiest people in this country. and it's going to the cost is going to be paid by grandmothers on medicaid, by people who need those pell grants to go to school. this is all about his cult like obsession with strength and his despising any form of weakness. >> what do democrats do in this moment? >> well, nicole, the american people and i don't think they voted for this. i'm really sure they didn't vote for this, but they voted to sideline the democrats in the house of representatives, in the united states senate and in the oval office. so the american people are getting a little bit of a taste of what this guy that they chose to install in the oval office is going to do. and what

these acolytes, what they chose, to whom they chose to give a majority in the senate and the house are going to acquiesce in and, you know, look, what happens in ukraine probably doesn't matter a ton to the to the, you know, folks around the dinner table in pennsylvania. but, you know, when those medicaid cuts come, when pell grants are eliminated, america is going to discover what it was that they voted for in november. >> yeah. he can't hear us anymore. we're having technical gremlins. but this is the buyer's remorse we've been talking to pollsters about all week long. our thanks to congressman jim himes and our apologies for the technical glitches. we have much more still to come on. the very real dangers we all face and the world faces. now, after an american president bullies a democratic ally and embraces a tyrant, instead, we're going to squeeze in a short break. we'll be back with our friend tim snyder on the other side. >> there is so much to talk about tonight. there is so much

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like drinking or trying to drink from a fire hose. hour after hour, day after day. but you should fight that feeling if you feel it. because what happened today cannot be allowed to be drowned out. like so many other developments know, donald trump's bilateral meeting with president zelensky wasn't just that. even for trump, run of the mill gaslighting or norm busting. it was world history in real time, in plain view, on purpose, with the cameras rolling. two leaders in this context, interacting with one another in a way that has never happened before. if the american president and vice president publicly turning on and betraying an ally of the united states of america and all of our allies to benefit the autocratic leader of russia. joining our coverage, yale university professor tim snyder, author of the best selling books on

tyranny and on freedom. your thoughts? >> well. >> my first thought. >> honestly. >> was. >> was shame. >> when i when i watched that. that very basic. >> things like hospitality. >> decency. >> respect were not being honored that we. >> invite someone to. >> our house. >> and he has. >> to. come and it takes him. >> days and. >> he's. >> leading a. >> leaving the land that's. >> at war, where tens of thousands. >> of people. >> have been killed, where he's visited. >> the front, where he's seen things that none of the people. >> in that. >> room have seen, and that we just can't treat. >> them decently. >> you know, that we might have disagreements, but we can't treat them decently. instead, we choose this path of open abuse. >> where the abuse. >> has. >> a politics behind it, where the abuse means we don't see you as an equal. we see you as somebody. >> that. >> we can manipulate and where. the abuse harmonizes all too perfectly with the kind of abuse that ukrainians have had to listen to from russian leaders and russian propagandists for the last three years and longer.

that was my. >> first reaction. >> say more. i mean, i think this this this abuse pattern, i said once during the first term that the whole country is in an abusive relationship with donald trump as he tramples our traditions and our proudest norms and the dignity of the oval office. but i hadn't i hadn't thought of it that way today. say more. >> yeah. that's i mean, the. >> the problem. >> that he has. >> with a foreign leader like zelensky is that zelensky can't bow down. i mean, not only personally. >> because he's. >> a man of integrity and ethics, but also because he's a democratically elected president. so he comes from another country. he was elected by tens of millions of citizens of another country. he represents a reality. >> that trump. can't control. >> and so. zelensky can't be bullied. >> the same. >> way that americans. >> can be bullied. we can be bullied because we feel conformist with our information

environment, because of. >> what our. >> neighbors say, because we're afraid of what trump might do. >> and so on and so forth. >> but when trump comes up against the outside world, he has a problem. and that's when we all see that it's an abusive relationship. right. that's that's the moment where the sun. >> breaks in and we realize, okay, this is what he's. >> been doing to us the entire time. and it oughtn't to happen to anyone. >> tim. marco rubio, days ago and going back decades or a decade, has told the truth about vladimir putin and russia and zelensky. lindsey graham 11 days ago, face to face with zelensky, told the truth about zelensky and the murderous, autocratic leader of russia, vladimir putin. today, after the ambush in the oval office. they refused to stand up for their own truths. truths they told. what is that? what is that dynamic in the souls of those men?

>> it's very, very dangerous, as you're suggesting, because if you're a senator or if you're a secretary of state, if you hold a position of responsibility and honor and power. >> within the american government. >> it's not your job to. think the same thoughts as the president. it's your job to. represent your constituents, if you're a senator, to represent your own values. if your secretary of state, it's your it's your job to counsel the president. it's your job to run the department of state. but it's not your job to be a human. echo chamber. it's not your job to simply repeat what the president of united states says. the danger of this is that we become a government without thought. we have a government of one man and his. set of impulses. and another thing which is very much on display today vulnerabilities. i mean, one thing about. >> this video. >> which is striking, is that anyone watching from the leaders of china, the leaders of russia, the leaders of iran and north korea has on full display mr. trump's very unfortunately

prominent set of emotional. >> the way that he can be triggered. the things that set him off. and we're putting this on full display. and so now we have people falling in behind, not something which is american interests or even. necessarily american words, but just a set of psychological vulnerabilities. and that's not a path that can lead anywhere. good. >> i want to ask you about j.d. vance's role in all this. i have vance's role in all this. i have to sneak in a with hotels and vacation rentals, booking.com has something for everyone. seashells! you got anything more boutique? oui, oui, oui. right this way... now we're talking. what about something more family friendly? oooh! maybe a resort with a waterpark... [water splash] or somewhere less family-friendly? yep! one vegas hotel for the bride to be. what if we hate everything? we have free cancellation. find exactly what you're booking for. booking.com booking.yeah a chewy order is on the way for (interrupted by dog)... (dog howls)

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display. one of them seemed to be he couldn't do this by himself. he needed j.d. vance to serve the role of an enforcer. >> well, in that sense, the entire thing does look a bit like a setup, doesn't it, where you've got the one person on president zelensky speaking his third language, surrounded. >> by a bunch of people. >> who seem to have lines prepared. >> and are trying to provoke him. >> in terms of vance, the thing that vance is yelling across the room in the video is, i'm right. >> i'm right. >> and if you look at vance's various pronouncements and his various twitter exchanges these last few days and weeks about ukraine, that's a central theme. the vice president has to be right, and everybody else has to be wrong. and what he has to be right about is that ukraine can't possibly win. and what he has to be right about is that the u.s. has done everything right in negotiating with russia. i happen to disagree with that. i think conceding every single point to russia in advance is not a good negotiating strategy. i also

disagree with the proposition that ukraine can't win. but the thing is that in serious exchanges like this, it's not about being right. it's not a high school debate tournament. it's not teenage boys yelling at each other. it's serious matters of world affairs. it's hundreds of thousands of lives. and if you allow your own psychological commitments, that you have to be right, and everybody else has to be wrong to be the thing that govern you, then you can lead a great nation into causing great harm. and that's one of the things, i'm afraid, that we saw in that room. >> i guess the best case scenario is we have a whole lot more information about where we stand and where we are as a country. tim snyder, you've been warning. you've been warning for warning. you've been warning for years now. thank you for your gut is like a garden growing both good bacteria and bad. that balance is key to a healthy gut environment. benefiber's plant-based prebiotic fiber gently nourishes the good bacteria, working with your body to help your gut, and you, flourish. effortlessly. every day. grow what feels good. with benefiber.

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