>> let me get a quick answer from you, brian. i want to show folks what you've written that republicans in brandon. and i say, brian, sorry about that. republicans in congress have to get control of doge by taking their own jobs more seriously, saying if members continue to stand by as doge plunges deeper into the federal bureaucracy, congress would be sending a clear message to future presidents and perhaps even the courts, that the executive need not worry about congressional authority. what's it going to take for congressional republicans to take control, brendan? >> well, i think we got a chance to talk about this concept a bit last weekend before i published this. there it is, the job of congress to authorize all of the programs, not just that they exist, but they're supposed to be going in every few years and writing into actual law what they should be doing. people talk about the power of the purse as as spending money, but the power of the purse is also that authorizing, going in and directing very specifically what programs should do. and members of congress just sort of stop doing that. and it's given a lot

of, i think, a lot of political space for elon musk to go in and just sort of take free rein because nobody has any ownership of the system. >> yeah. all right. brendan buck, jesse moore, guys, thank you both so much. meantime, in moments, a former pentagon insider joins me to give me her take of the historic meltdown in the oval office. at the top of the hour. good day to all of you from msnbc world headquarters in new york. welcome, everyone. to alex witt reports. we have breaking news, a white house official telling nbc news that direct negotiations between the trump administration and ukraine are on hold. we're going to have a live report on that in moments. ukrainian president zelensky meeting today with the prime minister of the uk, keir starmer. zelenskyy amassing international support in the wake of that disastrous oval office meeting with president trump and vice president j.d. vance. >> mr. president, with. >> respect. >> i think it's disrespectful for you to come into the oval office and try to litigate this in front of the american media.

>> and not in a good position. you don't have the cards right now with us. you start having cards. cards. right now you are playing. >> cards. >> you're playing cards. you're gambling with the lives of millions of people. you're gambling with world war three. >> zelensky later choosing his words carefully but saying he doesn't see a need to apologize. >> i respect president and i respect american people. and if i don't know if i think that we have to be very open and very honest, and i'm not sure that we did something bad. >> meanwhile, once ardent ukraine supporters, secretary of state marco rubio, who is in the room, and senator lindsey graham pulling 180 while democrats are not mincing their words with their displeasure. >> what specifically. >> do you want to see president. >> zelensky apologize for? >> well, apologize. >> for turning this thing into the fiasco for him that it became. there was no need for

him to go in there and become antagonistic. >> he either needs. >> to resign. >> and send somebody over that we. >> can do business. >> with. >> or he needs to change. >> it's one. >> thing to be. >> looking for gratitude. >> it's another to be. >> demanding. >> groveling. >> which. >> is what they did today. and it was a. >> pathetic ambush. >> the president of the. >> united states is a coward. who is vladimir putin's puppet? the vice president of the united states is a. rogue and a coward. who is donald trump's puppet? >> this is the new york times reporting the flow of u.s. weapons to ukraine has nearly stopped and may end completely. all of this while here at home, the pressure on federal workers grows, a source tells nbc news. some federal employees received a second dose email, telling them to send five bullet points of what they accomplished this week and do it by monday night. some agencies telling employees they will respond on their behalf. and there is more. and

so we have a number of reporters and analysts in place ready to go over all these new and developing story lines for us. we're going to go to nbc's yamiche alcindor right out of the gate here at the white house with that breaking news. so we've heard, yamiche, this new information just moments ago, about now, direct negotiations between the us and ukraine. tell us what you've learned. >> that's right. a white house official tells nbc news that direct negotiations between the united states and ukrainian officials is on hold. it's not clear what it's going to take to reengage. we know that president trump has said that he wants to hear president zelenskyy say that he wants peace. he also said that he should refrain from saying negative things about president putin, which, of course, the president of russia, and that he should embrace the idea of having a cease fire. part of the reason why this happened in the oval office is because president zelenskyy said that a cease fire wasn't going to make sense because he already had a cease fire deal with president putin, and he broke that deal when he invaded crimea in 2014. that being said, white house officials and trump officials are doubling down on the idea that president

zelenskyy was disrespectful and needs to really apologize in this case. take a listen to what mike wallace, who is the national security adviser, said just this morning on fox news. >> this really could have been and should have been. a positive. moment for ukraine. but instead, what became clear and i think what has. the president so, so frustrated and. frankly angry is that it's not clear. >> that. >> zelensky truly wants. >> to stop the fighting. >> the vice president. >> said enough is enough. >> the president. >> said enough is enough. and i. >> got to tell you, this. >> was the wrong approach, wrong time in history. >> and. >> definitely the wrong. >> president to. >> try to do. >> this kind. >> of thing. >> now, we should remind people that mike wallace was one of the officials who specifically told went out and directly told president zelensky that he needed to leave the white house. after that contentious and personal and testy exchange in the oval office. now the president, president trump, has

left the door open to zelensky having negotiations with him again. but we just aren't clear what the timeline is going to be. we also don't know if this rare earth minerals deal that was going to give the u.s. valuable rights to ukrainian minerals, whether that's even going to be on the table anymore. so a lot of questions here, alex. >> okay. thank you so much from the white house. we appreciate you, yamiche, for that. let's go to breaking news now from overseas where ukrainian president zelenskyy just wrapped up a much different meeting with uk prime minister keir starmer. joining me once again and nbc's megan fitzgerald in london. megan, how different was the mood at ten downing street today compared to yesterday's meeting with trump? and did that contrast seem intentional? >> you know, i can tell you it was night and day. such a stark contrast. and it certainly did seem intentional. you know, it's not often that we see prime minister starmer actually walking out of the doors of ten downing street and going to meet there, his guest that's coming to see him. that's what we saw today. we saw a warm embrace in front of the cameras before the

two leaders went inside, and they exchanged pleasantries. i mean, this is the moment where we saw the prime minister reaffirm support for ukraine until it's not needed anymore. i mean, he really expressed that, you know, he has a true ally in the united kingdom. and then, of course, we heard from zelensky as well, thanking the people of the united kingdom. i want you to hear just a little bit of that exchange earlier today. >> well. >> let me. >> just say. >> that you're very, very welcome here. >> in downing street. >> and as you heard from the cheers of the street outside, you have full backing across the united kingdom. >> we're happy. and we count on your support and. really, really, we're really happy that we have such, such parties and such friends. fantastic. >> thank you. >> and then also noting here

that we also heard zelenskyy thank king charles in saying that he's going to be meeting with him tomorrow as well. but you know, what we have seen from prime minister starmer is really just positioning himself as sort of the bridge between ukraine and the united states. we saw that he had a phone call with president trump and president zelensky after that fiery encounter in the oval office. there is this collective understanding among leaders all across europe that this is a new environment. we have not seen this in many, many decades. it's a change. post world war two, the world that we've been living in is no longer. many european leaders, seeing this as unchartered territory. and there's a real concern here, and an understanding that europe really needs to take the reins to start leading the free world. and so that brings us, of course, to the meeting that's going to be taking place tomorrow. this emergency summit that's held by prime minister keir starmer. he says that there

are some 18 leaders from across europe that are going to be attending, and they have to figure out how they could potentially independently fund and defend ukraine in the event of a russian invasion. again, assuming that eventually there is this peace deal we saw last week that, you know, macron and of course, prime minister starmer tried to convince trump of these military backstop of security guarantees. it didn't seem as though the president wanted to move on that. so now this is something that europe is going to be discussing tomorrow. >> it's an important discussion to have, that's for sure. megan fitzgerald, thank you so much from london. and joining me right now, we have former deputy chief of staff for defense secretary lloyd austin, caroline deer and politico white house reporter maya ward. actually, caroline, i hope i pronounce your last name correctly. and if i didn't, please correct me. so, maya, you just heard that nbc is reporting direct talks between ukraine and the us are on hold. how big a development is that?

>> yeah, i mean, i don't think that it's a shock after what we saw yesterday. i mean, it was unclear when zelensky left the white house what was going to be next? i mean, trump essentially said that zelensky had posted this on truth social, that zelensky is not ready for peace and that he can come back when he is ready. and so, you know, the idea was that, you know, ukraine would turn over some of these profits from its critical minerals sector in exchange for continued us support. you know, now, three years into the war, it's unclear if that is still on the table. but it's definitely after yesterday things. things are definitely unclear. >> yeah. caroline, you traveled to ukraine with secretary austin several times during the war. what is your reaction to what you saw in the oval office yesterday? >> dismay. in a word, it was head spinning and embarrassing. the us is a.

>> global leader. >> we have been since the end of world war two. underpinning the world order and global security. and what we saw yesterday in the oval office was a clear abdication of us responsibility. the vice president and the president of the united states cornered the president of ukraine, who has been fighting for his country's sovereignty for three years, to tooth and nail, with help from the united states, from europe, from 50 countries. we have we, the united states had brought together. and this was a watershed moment. i think it will be a before and after sort of day that we talk about. and that meeting in the oval was was definitely a significant departure from the leadership. >> oh, listen, it's something many people around the world are not going to forget. but caroline, ukraine will almost certainly keep fighting regardless of u.s. support. last

week, president trump implied that kyiv would fall in three weeks if europe didn't sign off on terms for the country's surrender. do you have a sense of what the current state is on the battlefield? is russia winning the war, as trump claims? >> i would not characterize russia as winning the war, and i have always thought the ukrainian armed forces and president zelenskyy are best positioned to describe what's happening on the battlefield. my own assessment is that russia is making grinding, incremental progress in the east, retaking some territory in kursk. that's the region in in russia that ukraine made made some territorial gains last summer. but those those incremental gains on russia's part are coming at extraordinary cost in terms of men and materiel. and that's why you see russia reaching out to north korea for troops, reaching out to iran for weapons. those are signs of

conventional weakness on putin's part, not signs of strength. and at the same time, we've seen that the ukrainians are able to absorb the capabilities, the training that the united states, europe and 50 countries have provided and have fought with incredible bravery, holding off a much larger military. so i do not count ukraine out, but what they will need, and i think this is core to any peace through strength type of deal that i think the administration wants. they will need continued support from the international community so that they can defend themselves. >> yeah. maya. treasury secretary scott claimed that zelensky wanted to reset after that episode in the oval office. he wanted to stay to sign that agreement, but white house officials demanded that he leave. what are you hearing about all that? >> yeah, i mean, look, this was just a stunning moment. i mean, the reaction around the world

has been, you know, incredible. i mean, among ukraine's supporters, both in washington and around the world, there was really this, you know, reaction of horror in ways and this feeling that russia was the winner of yesterday's meeting. we even had talked to some sources who felt like it could have been a setup of sorts. you have different opinions, really, about how this this came to be. i mean, trump's supporters and of course, officials in the white house really saw this, you know, as this demonstration from trump as showing american power and this america first mantra that he really ran on. and then, of course, the russians. i mean, they love how it went down. we saw that in some of the responses. but i think everyone, regardless of where they stood and what their take was, agreed that it was it was jaw dropping. >> what happens to the mineral agreement? now, maya, i mean, is the white house saying it's dead or are there signs it could be revived? and if so, is that the potentially only path to an end

to the war? >> yeah. i mean, again, i think it is unclear where this goes next with the white house. i mean, trump said zelensky is not ready for peace. he can come back when he is ready for that. but that being said, i mean, this mineral deal, it was not a deal that was going to end the war. so, you know, maybe there is another path we're going to have to wait and see. but after that heated exchange yesterday, you know, i don't imagine we're going to see see another immediate convening of trump and zelensky again. we see zelensky, you know, now in the in london having talks with european leaders. and it will be interesting what comes out of out of that tomorrow. >> yeah. we'll be watching that closely. so caroline one of the things zelensky tried to get through to trump is that this isn't just about ukraine, but potentially about europe and by extension, global security. so if a deal is struck on terms that are favorable to russia, and if the u.s. normalizes relations with russia, what does

that mean for our long term national security interests? >> the united states and russia normalized relations and do so absent a larger normalization architecture that includes our allies and partners. so europe and ukraine and in some way would need to bring along the rest of the global community, because allies and partners in asia are also watching what happens. i think you will see that putin is the winner at the end of the day, just as he was the winner out of the meeting in the oval yesterday. putin has a long track record of running through any red lines, violating terms of ceasefires, invading neighbors. and there's no reason to think that that normalized relations between the united states and russia will prevent him from continuing that pattern of behavior. and i would fully

expect that he gets what he wants, which is a weaker nato if we retreat. and a general retrenchment of the united states from european security. and the other winner out of this, of course, would be china and other adversaries. china has been watching what the united states, europe and ukraine do on the battlefield for the last three years and are very keenly interested in seeing a weaker security architecture there because a weaker, weaker arrangement there is weaker in other regions as well. >> caroline is here. and my gosh, thanks so much for the conversation. appreciate it. next, the return of the doge questionnaire. who got it this questionnaire. who got it this time? we're back in 90s. sometimes sweat just hits you out of nowhere. oh, yes, it does. but secret whole body dry feel deodorant absorbs all that delightful sudden sweat everywhere. everywhere, everywhere? oh yeah, it's aluminum free and keeps you 72 hour fresh.

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congresswoman from new mexico, melanie stansbury. welcome, congressman. i'm glad to talk with you about this. a white house official tells nbc news that direct negotiations between the trump administration and ukraine are now on hold. how concerning is that to you, and what was your reaction to that whole episode? >> well. >> obviously. >> i. >> think we are all just completely shocked, gobsmacked, disgusted. i mean, i've never seen a more disgraceful display and lack of american patriotism and support for our international allies. and frankly, they look like a bunch of frat boys harassing our one of our closest international allies. this is catastrophic for the united states. over the last several weeks, we knew that donald trump was going to cozy up to putin. but what he and his administration have done is a complete reordering of international affairs. in fact, two weeks ago, we saw at the munich security conference that

our vice president went on the world stage. he undermined our european allies, he undermined western democracy, and he endorsed far right german political parties in the midst of their parliamentary elections. while they're cozying up to putin. and now this. this is dangerous. it's taking the united states in a position that is making our country weaker. and frankly, it's going to make our country less safe, not just globally, but here in the united states. >> all right. thank you for sharing all that. i do want to get to your position as top democrat on the house doge subcommittee. so let's get to the developments on that front. as federal workers are getting emails, again, demanding they list accomplishments this last week. and if they don't respond, it will be viewed as a resignation. but instead of the email coming from the office of personnel management, it was going to come directly from agency heads. and that would suggest the administration is getting a somewhat better grip on how to get doge initiatives done without circumventing the

law. but many of these emails were again from opm. what's going on here? and should federal employees be worried? >> well, i mean, it's very clear that the trump administration does not believe in the rule of law. and the courts were very clear this week that opm does not have the authority to hire or fire, and to make these kind of demands from agency staff, but they are continuing to do this. and in fact, it's our understanding that many of the agency heads and cabinet secretaries were even unaware that elon musk was going to send the first couple of emails and tweets that he did last week asking for these bullet points. but we know the administration is breaking federal law every single day with these demands. they are breaking personnel laws. they are breaking separation of powers laws. they're breaking authorization and appropriations laws in congress. but the doj is part of the administration, and they are not holding them accountable. and so we're having to bring

suits through the states and nonprofits to stop them, to get emergency injunctions against the administration and stop these illegal activities. and we're going to have to continue to do so. and myself and the members of the democratic caucus are fighting back in congress. we're fighting back in the courts, and we're fighting back in our communities. >> and also, at a d.o.j. subcommittee hearing this week, you reiterated your call for elon musk to testify before the committee. what questions do you have for him? >> well, i think we have endless questions for mr. musk. i mean, first of all, what is he up to? what is his long term vision for the federal government? what is he trying to accomplish? you know, he says that his primary goal is to make the government more efficient and to root out waste, fraud and abuse. but the only receipts that he has posted so far don't even add up. his math doesn't math. this guy is not providing any transparency about what he is doing and he is now self-dealing. he gave himself an faa contract, and we're hearing from agencies that

there's talk about him giving himself a.i. contracts to, quote unquote, modernize these agencies. to me, this looks like a heist. it looks like he is looting the federal government. they're laying off workers, they're dismantling agencies. and far from saving money, they're planning to reallocate that money to give himself private contracts. >> i want to play part of your statement. it was at the end of that subcommittee meeting on wednesday to federal workers and those affected by doj's cuts. here we go. >> we are in the courts. we are in congress. we are in our communities. and we will hold this administration accountable. and we will not abandon our allies or our humanity. so with that, i say to all of you, be strong. we will fight back. >> i now. >> recognize myself for closing remarks. >> i now. >> recognize myself for.

>> closing remarks, and threats against the. >> president of the united. >> states. >> will. >> not. >> be. >> tolerated. >> by anyone. is that what that was for? your comments and intended threat? >> well, i find it comical. and, you know, on at the moment that the chairwoman gaveled down, there were claps from the audience, i think because there was a number of federal workers in the audience. but right before that statement, i pointed out and i directed my statement directly to mr. trump, which is i said that 250 years ago, we rejected a abusive king in this country and that we're not going back. and that's just the reality. in fact, every schoolchild who has ever taken american history is taught that it is part of our culture. and so while donald trump likes to play king in the oval office, whether it's diminishing our foreign allies or it's tweeting and calling himself a king and

undermining the separation of powers. americans are not going to stand for it. and we're not going to be intimidated by threats, by our colleagues or by the administration, because this is our country and our democracy, and we're going to continue to do everything in our power to push back, to fight back, and to protect our communities. >> new mexico congresswoman melanie stansbury, this is a great conversation. we'll see you again. thank you so much. the tariffs and the layoffs, what they are doing to the what they are doing to the economy next. pronamel clinical enamel strength can help us to keep our enamel for a lifetime. it's backed by science it is clinically proven to strengthen our teeth. i would recommend this toothpaste to everybody. it's really an amazing product. (♪♪) [coughing] copd is an ugly reality. do you have his medical history? i watch as his world just keeps getting smaller. but then, trelegy helped us see things a little differently. with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler,

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friday.com to get this deal. it's friday plans pills.com. >> we are following some breaking news, a white house official tells nbc news. direct negotiations between the trump administration and ukraine are on hold. this is a preliminary agreement giving the us revenue from ukraine's rare earth metals and other natural resources was set to be signed friday, but of course fell apart after the oval office meeting between president trump and ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky. joining me

now is moody's analytics chief economist mark zandi. mark, always good to have you. so president trump strongly pressured ukraine into this agreement, even though he's long been critical of green energy like wind and solar and electric power, all things that require the various minerals the us will get access to in this deal. why is trump interested in these minerals? in what way would they be a boon to the us? >> oh goodness. >> i'll speculate. >> as to. >> what his what. >> the motivations are. >> i mean. >> i think there are economic. and political. >> i mean. >> in terms. >> of the economi >> these critical. >> raw materials. >> you know, everything. >> from. >> graphite to titanium. >> lithium, uranium. >> long list. >> go into lots. >> of different products. >> some of which you. >> mentioned. >> you know, batteries for. >> evs. >> but they're key to cell. >> phones and other. >> consumer electronics. >> or key to a lot of. >> defense equipment. >> a lot of high tech. >> gear, you know. >> very, very important. >> and right now. >> the us.

>> relies very heavily on china for those those metals and minerals. >> and so we're very exposed. and so i my. >> my sense is the president is. looking for alternative. >> ways to get those. >> you know, critical. >> materials. that could be ukraine. you know i'm hearing. >> high level of speculation, but. >> this may be why he's so interested. >> in countries like. >> greenland and canada. and canada also has a fair amount of these minerals. >> as well. >> yeah. okay. well, actually all of that put together makes very good sense, speculative as it may be. mark. so the us economy was growing. inflation was easing when trump took office last month. but there are growing signs of strain amid the administration's massive spending cuts and the tariffs on goods from canada and mexico that are set to take effect on tuesday. how will tariffs impact costs and the overall health of the economy? >> well. >> alex. >> i'm not a fan not a fan. >> of broad. >> based terrorists, maybe. >> strategic terrorists. >> in. >> the. >> context of trying to make a point to a trading partner where

you have a disagreement and can't come to terms. but broad based. >> tariffs are a. >> tax. >> a tax on american consumers. >> it raises prices for everything. >> that's imported. and we import lots of things. from countries like canada and mexico and china. and those, of course, are countries that have faced now much higher tariffs. it cost jobs. you know, these countries aren't going to stand still. they're going to respond. some countries, like china will be tit for tat. you know, they'll respond in kind. other countries like canada and mexico probably more circumspect in how they respond. but the longer the. tariffs are in place, the more these countries come to the conclusion that they're not going anywhere fast. they'll start retaliating. and that means that, you know, manufacturers here who sell their goods to the rest of the world will sell less of them. that will cost american jobs. but, you know, here's the thing that really i think is, you know, overarching and is impacting the economy more broadly, not only about the tariffs, but, you know, what's going on with cuts to federal government employment and empowerment. and, you know, all the other things that are going on is the uncertainty that it creates. you know, that's the economy feels like it's starting

to gag on the uncertainty. you know, businesses, people, you know, need to understand, you know, what the rules of the game are, what the and how things are going to play out before they invest and hire and spend. and if there's a lot of uncertainty, they just don't do those things. and i don't think anyone's back yet. that would be recession, but i think people are starting to sit on their hands, much like the federal reserve is sitting on their hands. they told us they're not going to cut interest rates until they have some clarity around economic policy. i think the rest of the economy is doing the same thing, and thus the economy feels like it's gagging, it's seizing up the, you know, having some difficulty. >> but what about the firings of thousands of government employees by elon musk and those? i mean, that's raising some pretty serious concerns about ripple effects across the country. you've got about 80% of federal workers who live outside the d.c. area. and the administration says the firings are just beginning. so what kind of economic turmoil will that create? how how will it impact the labor market, all these firings and people with unemployment? >> well, you know, i'm all for

working on trying to make the government more efficient and rooting out fraud, if that's the case. but it feels like you go about that in a more surgical way when you're taking a chainsaw to government agencies and spending and government employment, you know, you run the risk of really creating a lot of disruption. obviously, going back to my point around uncertainty, it's making every federal government employee very unsure or uncertain. and there's a lot of folks that work for the government, 2.3 million nonmilitary in federal government, and then many more than that in the private sector that cater to the federal government. they're all now very, i think, unsure as to what's going to go, what's going to happen here. and that's affecting their spending and it's affecting their spending. it's going to affect the economy. so, you know, another reason that, you know, why it's important that i think these policies be implemented in a, in a more surgical, you know, hopefully thoughtful way. >> yeah. big difference between a scalpel and a chainsaw, that is for darn sure. mark zandi, thank you so much. a name, a name you'll recognize jumps into the new york city race for mayor

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video on youtube explaining what he believes are his qualifications for the role and what he hopes to change in the city. cuomo has an extensive political career as a democrat, serving as the u.s. secretary of housing and urban development under the clinton administration, the attorney general of new york, and most recently serving as the 56th governor of new york state from 2011 to 2021. cuomo resigned from his position as governor during a scandal involving sexual harassment allegations against him. he has denied all of those allegations against him. but in january of 2024, the department of justice found that the former governor subjected at least 13 women to a sexually hostile work environment while he was in office. cuomo seemed to acknowledge this scandal in his campaign announcement, stating he would have done a few things differently, and has since learned from some of his mistakes. take a listen to a bit more of that video that was published today. >> the city just.

>> feels threatening. >> out of control and in crisis. >> these conditions. exist not as an act. >> of god, but rather. >> as an act. >> of our political leaders, or more precisely, the lack of intelligent action by many of our political leaders. but new yorkers know the simple answer of what. to do when there's a crisis in leadership. you lead. you act. you do. >> in the video, cuomo also touches on the need to address the homeless population and mental health crisis in the city, saying he wants to make new yorkers feel safe again, taking the subway and interacting with each other in public. following several years of crime, he also mentioned wanting to fix the immigration system and addressing adding more resources to the police force. cuomo is entering an already crowded race for mayor. senate state senator jessica ramos, comptroller brad lander and assembly member zoran mamdani have already thrown

their name in the hat. and this is all as eric adams, the current mayor, is still in hot water following a federal indictment on corruption charges but is still running for reelection. cuomo has already captured the endorsement of democratic congressman ritchie torres, who said america and new york city loves a comeback story and is placing high in some polling already. cuomo has placed pretty high in early polling, so the democratic primary is actually on june 24th and will be keeping a close eye on all of this. alex. >> yeah. about four months to go and we'll know who the democratic nominee is for the mayoral position here in new york. thank you very much, maya eglin, for that. the human toll eglin, for that. the human toll of all those cuts next. in the wayborhood, every delivery is a treat. one pistachio for you, sir. one strawberry poof, please. oh. enjoy it. oh, poofect. bye waybor. something minty?

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be. up for. interpretation of. >> our. >> entire legal system. >> that is a sense of how thousands of fired federal workers are feeling. nbc news interviewed several government employees who say they've lost a sense of identity after their dismissals. joining us now is natasha korecki, nbc news senior national politics reporter, who heard firsthand some of these heartbreaking stories. and natasha, thanks for joining us. i know these people who they they devoted their careers to bettering our country. so what sticks with you most from your conversations? >> say how deeply offended a lot of these workers are about how they're being portrayed by donald trump and elon musk as parasites, as lazy as not wanting to come into work when these. people were telling me story after story about working 15, 16, 17 hour days when needed. these are people with expertise who could have gone into the private sector and made

a lot more money. >> but. >> they believed in what they were doing. they wanted to be civil servants. they wanted to help. >> stop the. >> spread of infectious diseases, keep water clean, drinking water clean for people. they're really dedicated to what what they're doing. and a lot of them are veterans. i know that's been said a lot, but i. can't emphasize it enough. >> these are. >> people who've worn the uniform for their country. >> put their lives. >> at risk. and they're hearing two men who. >> have. >> never done. >> that just completely act as if they are lazy people, as if they're parasites. and. >> you know, a lot of these people are just. >> they feel like. the truth is not getting out there about who they are and what they do. >> you spoke with a cdc worker who is a pregnant amputee, an epa employee who canceled his honeymoon over fears of imminent firing. also, a navy veteran working with scientists to tackle the bird flu outbreak. how will they pay the bills? how will they navigate insurance

issues now? do they have support systems to help them through it? >> in some cases, yes. >> in some. >> cases, no. >> you know, one of the individuals who was helping with the bird flu, she just moved into a new house and she has two mortgages now and no income. i think the most compelling story, however, was that of anna khan. she is a amputee below above the knee amputee who is also eight months pregnant. here is someone who has international experience, incredibly intelligent. again, went into this job because she was very passionate about her work and she was just completely let go, just with without any notice at all. and now she's in a lurch. one of the biggest issues she's facing is that she was in the midst of getting a. >> new. >> prosthetic for her leg. because her body is changing as

she's pregnant, she's getting sores. now all of that is in limbo. so she's she's. just under incredible amount of stress trying to figure out how to navigate. >> all of that. >> that's heartbreaking. let me ask you one more question. how upset were they that these cuts have gone unchallenged at the direction of elon musk? this is a billionaire multi-billionaire who's unable to relate to their financial concerns. let's face it. and someone they didn't even vote for. right? >> i mean, i many people brought that up like that, that this was not the deal in some cases. you know, they voted for trump, but they did not want elon musk. they weren't expecting this. and they would say things like, i did not think a billionaire would be inside of my email inbox harassing me every day. and what people again and again stress to me is how inefficient this is, that they are shutting down jobs without any notice and

in some cases, leaving multi-million-dollar grants and contracts in a lurch. people do not know how other people there do not know how to do the jobs. and so there's a lot of redundancies. there's a lot of money that's going to be lost. and that's the irony here that a lot of people we're getting across to me that this is not about efficiency. as jacob podell said, this is about cruelty. >> natasha korecki, thank you so much for bringing those stories to us. hear what doge staffers are saying. a new report tries to uncover what's really going on and gets closer to the truth. >> are you sitting. >> right now? >> it could be harming. >> your health. back pain, stress and serious health risks can build up from sitting too long. >> but. >> motion changes everything. introducing reddi rocker with its patented rock perfect design that supports your spine as it helps improve posture, relieve back pain, boost circulation,

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joining us now is coauthor of the piece, new york times reporter teddy schleifer. let's get into it, teddy, because at the very beginning, how and when did the i, the father of doge, come about with musk? and was the depth of government cuts understood from the outset? >> it wasn't. you know, elon musk started talking about this in 2023 at a time when it was very, very, very high level. elon musk, you know. >> cared a lot. >> about making government more efficient. but it really even even i talked to someone two weeks before election day, was talking about this with musk directly, who said his idea was very loose on details. then what happens? trump's elected in early november. and elon kind of basically makes this his full time job to learn about the federal budget. he starts getting civics civics lessons kind of 101 level stuff, and he starts from scratch. and part of why it feels so frenetic and rushed right now is because it was this was not an idea that really had been developed before november 5th.

>> is this something that he's doing to the exclusion of working on the companies that he owns? i mean, spacex, yeah. x you know, tesla. those aren't exactly small potato companies. >> yeah. and in fact, we've seen some shareholders, at least in tesla, which is public kind of wish they saw elon musk a little bit more. you know elon's sort of way of approaching company building is that he kind of thinks in sprints. right. he thinks i'm going to focus obsessively on twitter. i'm going to focus obsessively on tesla or on spacex when they were having their own challenges. right now, his obsession is the public sector. and that's why he's, you know, frankly, in washington since election day, basically nonstop in washington, since inauguration day in mar-a-lago before that, because he believes this is a full time job. but definitely fair to question, if you are a tesla shareholder or a spacex or x shareholder, frankly, where's the guy who owns this company? >> and i guess it's a pure speculation about how long this sprint is going to be running. but let me get to what you say,

which is the structure of doge, that it was thought out and secrecy was at its core. in fact, musk became aware of the possibility people could sue for records or emails under the freedom of information act. but foia requests don't apply to presidential advisors. is there a real possibility this complicated structure may never be unraveled or held accountable? >> yeah. i mean, elon's advisors for a long time have really prioritized protecting him, and that's reflected in everything from how they feel about the media to how this entity is structured to begin with. clearly, they are concerned about him being a target of lawsuits of democrats. in fact, you know, there's been all this hubbub over the last week or so about who even is the administrator of doge, which is one of these things that sounds like technical mumbo jumbo, but who is actually legally responsible for this entity? has profound legal implications. and one thing we found in our reporting is they really, really want to make sure that musk

himself was not going to be caught in the crosshairs as he's doing this work. >> give me a quick sense. how much is musk actually pulling the strings? how much is he running the show? >> i think he's absolutely running the show day to day. i mean, elon has about 50 people that we at the time have identified are sort of the foot soldiers here. you know, a lot of attention has been paid to like the kids, for lack of a better word. but there are like legitimate, established republican lawyers and operatives who are advising him. but, you know, musk is very much, you know, calling shots. you know, his approach to management is very in the weeds. and we're seeing that now. >> okay. teddy schleifer, a great conversation. too short, but we'll make up for it sometime. thank you. that's going to do it for me on this edition of alex witt reports. see you again tomorrow, 1 p.m. eastern. up next, the beat weekend. >> welcome to the beat. i am katie phang in