himself was not going to be caught in the crosshairs as he's doing this work. >> give me a quick sense. how much is musk actually pulling the strings? how much is he running the show? >> i think he's absolutely running the show day to day. i mean, elon has about 50 people that we at the time have identified are sort of the foot soldiers here. you know, a lot of attention has been paid to like the kids, for lack of a better word. but there are like legitimate, established republican lawyers and operatives who are advising him. but, you know, musk is very much, you know, calling shots. you know, his approach to management is very in the weeds. and we're seeing that now. >> okay. teddy schleifer, a great conversation. too short, but we'll make up for it sometime. thank you. that's going to do it for me on this edition of alex witt reports. see you again tomorrow, 1 p.m. eastern. up next, the beat weekend. >> welcome to the beat. i am katie phang in for ari melber.

we start with the unprecedented and explosive scene from inside of the oval office. with trump now facing a storm of criticism from international allies, top democrats, and even some on the right. the day started normally enough. you see trump greeting ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky, the two men shaking hands and then walking in. but then both presidents headed to the oval office for what should have been a traditional photo op. the two were supposed to negotiate a mineral deal in ukraine and possible security guarantees as it fights off russia. traditionally, it's a short, choreographed event, but it quickly went off the rails, devolving into a tense and very public exchange between donald trump, president zelensky and j.d. vance. now the confrontation began when vance tried to lecture zelensky over diplomacy.

>> the path to peace. >> and the path to prosperity. is maybe engaging in diplomacy. we tried the pathway of joe biden, of thumping our chest and pretending that the president of the united states is words mattered more than the president of the united states is actions. what makes america a good country? is america engaging in diplomacy? that's what president trump is doing. >> can i ask you? >> sure. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> okay. so he occupied it. our parts, big parts of ukraine, part of east and crimea. so he occupied it on 2014. so during a lot of years, i'm not speaking about just biden, but those time was obama, then president obama, then president trump, then president biden, now the president trump. and god bless. now president trump will stop him. but during 2014, nobody stopped him. he just occupied and took. he killed people. you

know what the contact. 2015 2014. what kind of diplomacy? jd, you are speaking about? what do you what do you what do you mean? >> i'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country. >> yeah. >> but. >> mr. president, mr. president, with respect, i think it's disrespectful for you to come into the oval office and try to litigate this in front of the american media. >> that's when trump interjected and began attacking zelensky. >> you don't have the cards right now with us. you start having cards right now. you don't. are you playing cards? you're playing cards. you're gambling with the lives of millions of people. you're gambling with world war three. you're gambling with world war three. and what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country. this country. >> then trump and vance claimed that zelensky has been ungrateful. >> have you said thank you. once

this entire meeting? no. in this entire meeting, have you said thank you? you went to pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in october. offer some words of appreciation for the united states of america and the president who is trying to save your country. >> please. >> you think that if you will speak very loudly about the war, you. >> are not speaking loudly? he's not speaking loudly. your country is in big trouble. wait a minute. no, no. you've done a lot of talking. your country is in big trouble. >> i know. >> you're not winning. you're not winning this. you have a damn good chance of coming out, okay? because of. >> president, we are staying in our country, staying strong from the very beginning of the war. we've been alone, and we are thankful. i said thanks. >> you haven't. >> been in this cabinet. you haven't been in this. >> we gave you through the stupid president, $350 billion. we gave you military equipment. you and your men are brave. but they had to use our military. if you didn't have our military equipment, if you didn't have

our military equipment, this war would have been over in two weeks. >> in three days? i heard it from putin in three days. this is something. >> maybe. >> less in two weeks. of course. yes. >> it's going to be a very hard thing to do business like this. all right. i think we've seen enough. what do you think this is? this is going to be great television. i will say that. >> as a matter of fact, zelensky has publicly thanked the united states numerous times, including at the beginning of today's meeting. here's a picture of the ukrainian ambassador with her face planted squarely in her hands. perhaps how the world also felt watching this trump vance meltdown. nbc reports that in the hour after the oval office meeting, the ukrainians tried to reset, but the white house felt disrespected by zelensky, citing he was, quote, shrugging and rolling his eyes. so zelensky was asked to leave. no deal was signed, and the

white house later saying zelensky is not welcome back. the new york times headline trump and vance loudly berate zelensky in oval office immediately after the meeting, numerous democrats slamming trump. >> that was an embarrassment. >> that was an abomination. what you watched was american. >> power being. >> destroyed in the world. >> as. >> everybody watches president trump become a. lapdog for a brutal. >> dictator in moscow. >> what we just witnessed between donald trump, j.d. vance and president zelensky inside the white house was an ambush. it was a planned ambush designed to embarrass president zelensky in order to benefit vladimir putin. >> notably, some voices on fox also questioning whether the obvious winner in all of this is vladimir putin. >> the only winner today. if there is no deal, and if these. >> two men leave.

>> the only winner is vladimir putin and the result will be more death, more destruction, because it will embolden putin. >> if you're. >> putin. i think. >> you're liking what you're seeing. i think. >> you're. liking the way this is falling apart. >> joining me now is ambassador michael mcfaul, former united states ambassador to russia. ambassador, what a colossal embarrassment to witness the president of the united states treat a fellow head of state inside of the oval office in such a disrespectful manner. how far have we fallen from grace? >> as far as i can ever remember, i've never seen such a colossal failure of american diplomacy. this was supposed to be a good deal. it's supposed to be a good day. both sides were happy with this minerals deal, and it could have helped to set the preconditions for a genuine negotiation to a peace deal, which everybody wants. the ukrainians, most of all. let's be crystal clear about that. but instead it became the shouting

match and relitigating what happened in 2016. and just like you said that earlier in the comments, there's one giant winner from all of this. this is vladimir putin. and the real question now is, is that by design or was that a mistake? because sometimes when i hear president trump, i think he's doing everything he can to appease putin. and that doesn't that is not in america's national interest. let's leave aside ukraine for a minute. we do not have an interest in emboldening dictators to attack their enemies to neighbors. i mean, to annex their territory that will embolden dictators all over the world. so i hope it was just got off the rails because of emotion. but sometimes i worry that actually trump's on the side of vladimir putin. and if that's the case, we're in big trouble. >> i mean, i don't think you really need to find better evidence, ambassador, to kind of answer your own question when it comes to whether or not, as some people have said, trump is

putin's lapdog. but some experts are also witnessing, including you watching this interaction in the oval office and saying that this was an ambush, that it was a setup in order to bring zelenskyy in, to humiliate him publicly. even trump saying at the end before he took questions, though, this is going to make great tv. but this is not just fictionalized tv. there are thousands, tens of thousands of lives that have been lost and that are at stake. so who really ended up looking like the fool at the end of this? trump. vance? >> well, i don't know if it was an ambush on purpose, but it sure felt that way. and i'm sure this will play great for their base. and it felt at times that that's what this was all about. you know, i used to work at the white house. i used to organize these kinds of meetings for president obama. it is unheard of that the vice president would speak ever in these meetings, let alone with the cameras rolling for as long as this happened. so i don't want to i don't know that to be true, but maybe it played well with their

base, but it's not going to play well with the american people. and that's where i think trump needs to pump the brakes a bit. 81% of the american people in a poll just last week, said they do not trust putin. so think about how many times have you seen a poll where 80% of americans answer on the same side? that doesn't happen that often in our country today. and i think maybe they think this is good for their politics, but i think they may be wrong about that even as well. >> you know, ambassador, some of the shots that we're seeing on our screen include, if they pan out a little bit, there's a guy sitting on the couch next to jd vance. his name is secretary of state marco rubio, and he's conspicuously silent and saying nothing. his arms are folded. if you read body language, looking petulant himself. why? what was his value add in this? because shouldn't he be participating? shouldn't somebody be the adult in the room here?

>> that's a great question. and right after the meeting, he went out on twitter and made a statement, you know, praising president trump. i get he has to do that. that's his boss. but i've known secretary rubio for a long time. he's part of my confirmation hearings back in 2011. he's been at this a long time. i know exactly what he said for all of his career until the last four weeks, about vladimir putin. so he's either got to decide that i'm going to stay true to my principles and try to get this back on track, or he's going to go down in history as one of the worst secretary of states in history. he will look horrible if he just capitulates and goes along with this. now, i hope that he saw this as a mess, and i hope that the diplomats will take over. by the way, diplomacy is done better behind closed doors, not with cameras rolling. and i think it's really incumbent upon the secretary of state right now to reach out to his ukrainian counterparts, get the relationship back on track, sign

the minerals deal and resuscitate, which right now is incredibly broken bilateral relationship with ukraine. >> and what are united states allies thinking as they witness what happened, the chaos that happened today in the oval office. and they see how a foreign head of state is being treated by the president of the united states. >> they're horrified. they've said it publicly. and this i want to be clear. we're talking not just about any head of state. we're talking about the democratically elected leader of a country that has been invaded for no reason by a dictator who has annexed his territory, who has killed, as you rightfully said, thank you for reminding people we're talking about lives lost here. 20,000 ukrainian kids have been taken to russia. these are crimes against humanity that this man is standing up against. and so what you've seen is the leaders of the democratic world

are siding with him, and they're asking the question, as the united states flipped sides in the battle between autocrats and democrats, are we now on the side of the autocrats? think about how incredible what i just said was. we, from the beginning of our republic, going back 250 years, we've always been on the side of freedom and liberty and democracy. after world war two, we became the leader of the free world, not the autocratic world. and right now we have a president that seems to want to join the dictators team and not be on the front, the side of the democratic team. and that is truly shocking for me. it's depressing and sad, and i hope it i hope it won't last. i hope the american people and our members of congress will push back on this, because if we don't, we'll be alone. and that is not good for our long term national security interests. >> ari melber takes over after a >> ari melber takes over after a quick break. you're watching the

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body deodorant to try and start controlling your body odor better everywhere. there is so. much to talk about tonight. there is. >> so much. >> to cover. we also see. >> voters imploring. >> democrats and you specifically to fight harder. what can you tell. voters tonight who say you could be doing more than you're doing? can you tell us what's going on in the senate right now? do you know what. >> the dodge group was. >> trying. >> to access. >> at social security that would have caused the administrator to resign? right now, in our time. >> today. >> the unpopularity of what they're doing really does create

real political pressure at the source to stop it, to at least slow him down. >> some bad. >> news brewing for those who. love a cup of joe coffee prices are continuing to rise. they sit at an all time high right now. >> all time highs. >> we're joined by paul. >> krugman, the nobel prize. >> winning economist. >> writes a. >> newsletter. >> longtime author, a longtime new york. >> times writer. >> as well. >> welcome back. >> hi. >> good to be on. >> great to have you. >> it seems like some. >> economic indicators. >> are getting worse. can you explain. >> to us what's happening? and so far, is. >> the new. >> trump administration. >> doing the. >> right things to. >> address them, ignoring them. >> or even. >> doing the wrong things to make them worse? >> well, speaking. >> of. >> course. >> the important thing. to say, you know, right now, if you're. >> you know. >> if you're into the jargon. >> the. >> soft economic data, stuff like consumer confidence, business confidence is falling off a cliff, the hard numbers,

things like. >> employment, you know, we have jobless claims, but that's a noisy number isn't following suit. but that stuff lags. we're going to get a jobs. >> number next week. >> but it will actually. >> be the number. >> of. jobs in early. >> february and not. >> what's. >> happening now. >> so it's good. >> but there's. >> a. >> lot of indications. >> so you know, trump's. >> promise to bring down grocery prices. was nonsense. >> it was always obvious nonsense. >> what is. >> surprising is that. >> he hasn't even made even a gesture. it's sort of like, okay, you chumps voted for me. now i'm. >> going to. >> forget about what. >> you you. >> you wanted and his. >> other stuff. it's not just that. >> it does. >> appear, you know, given what he said today. >> that we're going to put. >> high tariffs. >> on canada. >> and. >> mexico. which is disastrous. but there's. >> just. >> this level of uncertainty. >> there are all. these crazy policies out there. >> and if. >> you're a consumer, you don't. >> know. >> what's coming. if you're. >> a business, you know.

>> if you're in some ways not knowing. >> whether they're going to. >> be massive. tariffs is almost. worse than knowing that there are going to be massive terrorists. >> because if you. >> knew then, okay, you start to make some investments on that basis. >> if you. >> don't know, you should, you be. >> investing as if they're not going to happen. >> should you. >> be investing defensively because they are going to happen since you don't know what you do is nothing. you look, there's probably a lot of investment projects being put on hold as we. >> speak, and. >> you can. >> sort of start. >> to see that in the surveys. again, you won't see it in the official statistics for another few months, but i didn't think a lot of us thought that that trump would have a honeymoon. he'd be able to coast for. >> for 4 or. >> 5 months because he inherited an economy in really good shape with low inflation and low unemployment. but instead things are falling apart much faster than, you know. anyone, i think, really anticipated. >> yeah. >> that's fair. and it's certainly. >> the case. >> that. >> you know, in.

>> the. >> old days there was campaign. >> vows or. >> in the first term. >> there were many. >> infrastructure weeks. >> there's a brazenness. >> to, to. >> how they're. >> doing it. >> now that has. >> even as you know. republicans i. >> know you follow closely publicly in their own very. >> mealy mouthed. >> way, trying to. >> say, hey, be nicer. >> about the cuts or. >> be careful. go ahead. >> yeah. no, i was going to say and if you look at some of the things that appear to be on the chopping block, it looks like there's going to be massive. i'm saying some people are saying 50% cuts in staffing for the social security administration. now, that may not immediately mean that people stop getting their checks. but suppose something goes wrong. suppose your grandmother doesn't get her check and she says, okay, i'm i'm going to go to my local social security office and get this straightened out. your local social security office has been closed because elon musk and his doge children have slashed the payroll. there's nobody there. there's nobody there to answer the phone. so we're going to start to see i mean, we're already seeing hints

that a lot of, you know, very ordinary government services, things like getting your social security check, things like air traffic control are going to be are yeah, we do not have a lavishly funded government. this is a thing that people imagine, but we actually have is years and years of pinching pennies. and a lot of the government is really held together with scotch tape and paper clips. and then suddenly you have these 19 year old children going in there and mucking around, and things are going to start falling apart. and i think people are already starting to feel that, and they'll be feeling it a lot more in the months ahead. >> yeah. and some. >> of this relates to. >> the intersection. >> of feelings. and numbers. >> which i. >> suppose is. >> but enlightened economics deals with. >> if you only do. numbers and you don't have. >> any feel. >> for. the people, right. >> you're kind of. >> off base. >> i want to show the egg stuff. >> we mentioned.

>> has really. >> gotten people's attention. >> on the other side. i'll get your response on how it's playing. here's the eggs. >> it's the. >> cost of eggs has dominated the conversation. they're predicted to increase 41% this year. the usda is blaming the bird flu. and now it's revealed a new plan to fight that epidemic and hopefully lower prices. the new. >> secretary of usda saying that hopefully they will be. >> able to. >> begin to. stabilize things. the hope is. >> 3 to 6 months from now. >> where does. >> that and the consumer confidence drop fit in? >> well, age is just a very obvious thing. now, the truth is that you do have bird flu outbreaks that cause the price of eggs to fluctuate, and in some ways, most of this particular thing probably isn't trump's fault. but of course, the prices and the price spikes and eggs weren't biden's fault either. and the you would at least expect a president who ran on bringing grocery prices down to be saying something like, i feel your pain and we're doing

everything we can. and instead he's busy going after die or something. and then to the extent that we're talking about, you know, disease outbreaks and this is a disease, at least for the moment among birds. but can you think of an administration that you would trust less to deal with disease outbreaks, whether among animals or people? i mean, we've got a anti-vax crank heading health and human services. we have this administration, you know, think about the last time we had a we had a pandemic. trump bungled it and probably killed several hundred thousand people because of the way he bungled it. and now we're having we don't know yet. we're worried about this, you know, bird flu epidemic among people. that hasn't happened yet. but we've just had the first measles death in america in decades. and their response is, well, to brush it off, oh that's normal. no it isn't. this doesn't happen unless you have people who are fundamentally not interested in protecting the public in charge.

>> all really. >> important on the on the economics. >> and some. >> of the. >> just the realities. >> of it. >> professor paul krugman, i want. >> to. thank you and. remind folks. >> you can find paul krugman's. latest writing on his. newsletter at substack. you can newsletter at substack. you can google paul krugman substack. with fatigue and light-headedness, i knew something was wrong. then i saw my doctor and found out i have afib, and that means there's about a 5 times greater risk of stroke. symptoms like irregular heartbeat, heart racing, chest pain, shortness of breath, fatigue, or light-headedness, can come and go. but if you have afib, the risk of stroke is always there. if you have one or more symptoms, get checked out. making that appointment can help you get ahead of stroke risk. this is no time to wait. fda approved. >> weight loss. injections cheaper. >> with results. you can see. >> faster, lose. >> faster, lose. >> 15% of your.

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>> so always staying one step ahead. >> and with ai. >> we can look at so. >> much more than sales data by. >> our behaviors. social engagement. >> see that? predictive analytics. >> how long have you been doing this? >> as long as we've been with. >> people who know, know ■b.d.o. >> can the united. >> states president. >> use their power. >> to assassinate. >> american rivals. >> like. >> say, dissidents. >> civil rights protesters. >> or. >> even political. >> opponents. >> and then claim that that's. >> part of their. >> job so. >> they're legally immune? >> the answer. >> has always been no, but it's back in the news. >> tonight as. >> trump officials and. >> nominees face the. >> process of ongoing vetting. we showed you the cabinet meeting. some people have been, of course, confirmed. well. today the. senate grilled. >> john sauer. >> now he has been picked for. a very important doj. >> post. >> the one called. solicitor general, where you argue before the supreme court on behalf of

the united states. if you watch this program a lot, you might have seen. past solicitor general like neil. it's a big job. the name is familiar for the reason i. >> mentioned, because. >> this individual does have the relevant experience. i've told you about officials who don't. he does. he's a lawyer who has. litigation experience and has argued previously before the supreme court, including on behalf of then defendant donald trump in the notorious case that was trying to seek new and broader immunity for a former president. the headlines were bad. the open discussion, the advocacy, really, of legal immunity even for assasons in the united states. and that was a source of major. grilling at the hearing today. >> could a president who ordered seal team six to assassinate a political rival. >> who was not impeached? would he. be subject to criminal prosecution. >> if he were. >> impeached and convicted first? >> and your. answer is.

>> is he could order the use of his office to use violence. >> against a. >> political opponent. >> and you would defend his ability to do that in any criminal prosecution unless he's impeached. is that your testimony? >> the hypothetical you've offered. >> respectfully is. >> so outlandish, i don't know if i'm positioned to address it. well. >> you addressed. >> it. >> for the court, but you won't. >> address it for. >> the country in this hearing. >> i think i've just said exactly the same response. >> exactly the same. >> response is that you would evidently defend him. >> is it outlandish? >> you can watch a congressional hearing and say, oh, these. are the politicians. but as was correctly pointed out, and we played you the archival court sound. so you can remember, this came up from a judge quite seriously. because remember, the places that presidential actions are tested are not in the main part of legitimate activity, like enforcing the law or making hard foreign policy decisions. they're tested at or outside the bounds. for example, a former president who has been returned

to office. donald trump was caught trying to overthrow a lawful election. and so there was a federal case about it. as you know, with the immunity granted in this matter. then defendant trump, presumed innocent at the time under our system, never went to trial. but the question was about overthrowing the election, not conducting traditional foreign policy or a meeting with your own employees. and so you're saying it's outlandish is itself not very credible. and he's not the only person who's defended donald trump on criminal allegations. now getting the ultimate reward. a top government job. we can show you trump appointees who have been selected and are in or slated to be in top government positions from the attorney general of the united states to her deputy to the current acting deputy. so that's the three people who run the doj effectively. the solicitor general, as i just told you, one of the top doj posts dealing with the supreme court to white house counselors, staff secretary and the va, pam

bondi defended trump at the very first impeachment trial, which again was about allegations not of legitimate foreign policy, but a shakedown or bribe of a country that continues to be very important on the world stage. ukraine. todd blanche, up tomorrow for deputy ag, defended the president in that new york case. emil bove worked on those cases and is up at d.o.j. the others that you see in those key offices. remember, everybody has the right to counsel in our country, and that obviously includes donald trump, the former president. and you've never heard on this program any suggestion that he shouldn't have his legal counsel, that he is legally presumed innocent, that he can hire the best lawyers he can get? that's all fine. but you pay those lawyers and you move on. what we're seeing here is a level of repeat public rewarding with not donald trump's money. this is important with your money, with taxpayer

dollars and a type of loyalty or partizanship being pushed at very powerful public posts. >> they are here saying that the. president must be impeached and removed from office. for raising a concern. >> the jury should have. >> found president. >> trump. >> not guilty. >> i mean. >> in my soul, i believe that. >> we're. >> here because of. >> something that happened when he was in the white house. >> that wasn't. >> even wrong. >> we'll never stop. >> fighting because. >> we will. >> stop the steal. >> that reference to stopping the steal is a false statement about an election that was lawfully determined to be lost by president trump, the outgoing president, and won by president elect biden. that's ed martin. now, he defended january 6th defendants and later convicts. but he was at that stop the steal rally, which, of course was the precursor on the eve of what became an insurrection. now he's the top d.c. prosecutor,

which most legal experts, regardless of party, think is completely upside down. and he breaking all traditions and demands of public, nonpartisan rule of law. tradition says no, i'm just trump's lawyer still here. d.o.j. attorneys do not represent the president. the doj is also trying to take the pardons that trump issued, which are opposed by most americans, and broaden them to defend even more criminal conduct. you take this all together and you have something troubling on our hands, and you have the rewarding of these individuals, and you have an effort to take your government that your tax dollars support that is supposed to be neutral, independent and nonpartizan and turn it into something else. so i've told you before, these are a bundle of stories and developments that sometimes the white house does not want you to see. they are doing other counterprogramming, but we are staying on this. 83% of americans oppose those

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>> one of the warnings we heard this week we're joined by temidayo aganga williams, former federal prosecutor who served as senior investigative counsel for the january 6th committee. he knows these issues intimately. how unusual and how dangerous is it to have not one, but several lawyers who are free to do their private practice, as i mentioned, but who have this personal, political, criminal case, loyalty to president trump and who, some of whom say they continue to see their roles in that manner at doj. >> all right. this is completely uncharted. >> territory, and it's incredibly dangerous. as a former federal prosecutor, i took an oath. but that oath was about the united states. my client was not any president. he wasn't any individual. >> it was justice. >> and what's so dangerous when we look at, for example, a.g. bondi is the concept that she could be testing her loyalty, picking between what is best for the american people and what is best for president trump. and that conflict. if president trump wins, the american people

lose. and the other thing i'll add is one of the roles that we've seen here in the decline of the rule of law with this current president, that it is pervasive everywhere. we are seeing it from how the jan six pardons are being expanded. we're seeing it when a u.s. attorney in d.c. is calling himself a trump lawyer. and this spread across our agencies is incredibly dangerous and unprecedented. >> yeah. no, i appreciate your direct answer on that. and you have done that work. i'll show the 83%. it's not close. we had a one and a half point election. but donald trump has lost on this issue. a ton of republicans and conservatives who say that was bad. maybe they like other things. but but there's so much confusion or outright lying out in the country right now that you might think, oh, everything he's done is going swimmingly. no, people oppose this. john sauer, who i mentioned did deliver. we could talk about whether you agree with him or not, but i will report that he was part of the winning side in

the immunity case. here he was today doing what he knows how to do, which is sort of parse and slice. he he he invoked the idea that maybe they would resist some orders, but he picked a case that most people think was wrongly decided about japanese internment. korematsu, which again speaks to his sort of skill to say, well, what about that one? so i want to play this for your response. >> generally, if there's a direct court order that binds a federal or state official, they should follow it. >> why do you say. >> generally give me an exception? >> i suppose. >> one could imagine. >> hypotheticals in. you know, extreme cases like, you know, the korematsu decision. i believe there was a court order there that there that upheld, which has now been, i think, correctly repudiated by virtually everyone. a court order that upheld the internment of japanese civilians. internment camps during. >> as bad as it was, that court order was followed for years, was it not?

>> and i just wonder whether some historians might think we'd be better off if it hadn't been followed. >> he just wonders. it's a long way from japanese internment to refusing court orders regarding, say, trying to rewrite birthright citizenship, which is in the constitution or these budget cuts. but but walk us through for our viewers what was happening there. because if he's confirmed, he's the guy who will be the first person on the front line of any big supreme court clashes over the trump musk power grabs. >> yeah. >> so, ari, what we're really talking about is whether we, in fact, have the separation of powers. who does what in our three branches of government. and if we have a president who decides that he decides who the law is, he's a king. he's not a president. and we for throughout our history, have had the separation with the court, decides what the law is. and yes, korematsu was a shameful decision. but the law when a court decides or court decides we have processes for a reason. and i think if we have a world

where that conflict erupts, that's a constitutional crisis. if trump does what jackson once did, which is, you know, you have your order now court go and enforce it. a line that jd vance recently pointed to is showing whether the administration's thinking is then at that point, there's nothing holding the president back. and when you couple that with the immunity, a president decides what the law is and knows he cannot be prosecuted or held to account. there is nothing at all holding him back from doing exactly what he wants to whoever he wants. >> all right. so my final question is a quick one. i want your letter grades on mr. sauer. who is this trump lawyer? on his litigation efficacy and his fidelity to the rule of law. i don't always answer the questions, but i'll go first, so you get a second to think. in court, i give him. i give him a b plus. he's a pretty good litigator. and on rule of law, some of the things he's been saying, including those answers on killing americans. i give him

a d minus. >> so, you know, in court, i think at times he was effective within the bounds of advocating for his client. he was a zealous advocate and on the rule of law. ari, i'm going to be even worse. i'm going to give him an f. i think the argument that he's pushed forward are so incredibly dangerous and destructive to our country, and we have to look at them as such. >> yeah. again, appreciate your perspective tonight, tammy. good to see you. when we come back, we have professor melissa murray and the author rick benjamin. a lot going on at the supreme court and beyond. very excited court and beyond. very excited to get these meet patty. self-appointed social chair. but her capacity to care is unmatched. you need patty. patty needs a retirement plan. work with principal so we can help you with a plan that's right for patty. let our expertise round out yours. you might know harbor freight for affordability. you might not know performance and durability go along with it. we test. and then we test again. now it's time to put us to the test. whatever you do, do it for less

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of mind. go incognito and get 55% off today. >> we got a lot of news, possibly some fun. so we begin a special edition right now of fall back. we're joined by two great guests, nyu law professor melissa murray, who's clerked for sonia sotomayor, testified as an expert witness in congress, including against the kavanaugh nomination, and is, of course, an msnbc analyst and guest host here and a podcast host with strict scrutiny. check it out. we are also joined by author rich benjamin, who's been published in the new yorker and the new york times, and has provided his insights on policy and race in america on msnbc, really for years, including drawing on his book whitopia, which presciently probed america's self-segregation in what became the seeds of the maga uprising. he's out with a new memoir, talk to me lessons from a family forged by history. the new york times calls it

moving and valuable, while also critiquing its writing style. it happens, rich and salman rushdie says the book is brilliant and absorbing. mazel tov. welcome to both of you. >> thanks for having us. >> thanks for. >> having us. >> ari, the reviews are coming in, and congratulations. but we'll start with you. you're. the more, the more of the home base. what's it called? hometown. what's the word i'm looking for? >> hometown. >> hero. hometown. i didn't say hero. you're a hero to so many. yeah. hometown hero. repeat guest, msnbc fixture. so we're going to go to you first. okay. what's your fallback? >> so my fallback. >> is with the supreme court. >> the supreme court has been. >> kind of. >> quiet lately. >> not quite quitting. >> still on their hustle. >> but. >> not getting. >> as much attention because article. >> two have been the. >> real chaos monkeys of. >> the federal government for the last. >> couple. >> of weeks. but today, justice thomas. >> said. >> hold my beer. >> and he entered the chat. >> with a denial. >> from a grant or a. denial from a petition for certiorari.

so, as you know, the court's docket is discretionary. so people have to petition the court to hear cases. and it takes four votes to grant cert. justice thomas did not get his way in this case, which is. about a illinois law that requires abortion protesters to maintain a buffer zone around clinics entrances. >> thomas was on the losing side. >> he lost. >> this one. they're not going to hear this voice. they're not going to hear this case. they're not going to want to spotlight it because. >> he wrote a dissent. >> so typically when the court doesn't grant certiorari, unless someone weighs in to say that they're mad about something, we don't really know what's going on. justice thomas issued this dissent from a denial of certiorari. it's about eight pages. the case is called coalition life versus city of carbondale, illinois. and in it, he invites the court at a later date and litigants to later bring new challenges to these buffer zones that allow safe egress and ingress from clinic entrances. and so he argues that this decision denying certiorari was based on a case from 2000 called hill versus colorado, in which the court upheld a similar

buffer zone law as a permissible time, place, or manner restriction that did not violate the first amendment. he argues that this case, hill versus colorado, is an absurd, defunct, erroneous, and long credited aberration, a long discredited aberration from the rest of our first amendment jurisprudence. and interestingly for that proposition, he cites himself. he goes on to continue citing himself for all of the reasons why hill versus colorado is terrible. there's a lot to say about this. the first thing, the court didn't take up this case. i'm likely because they're already busy looking forward to how they're going to overrule humphrey's executor on one of these cases involving the removal of the heads of one of these independent agencies sometime this year, which i think is very likely to happen. but the fact that justice thomas is doing this is an invitation to litigants in the future to come back to the court with similar. >> challenges you want. >> he's like, he's got justice alito. justice alito joined him in this dissent. all he needs is

two more people. he is softening the ground here. he's tilling soil for a later challenge. it's going to upend the first amendment and also make it much harder for those, even in blue states, to get abortion care if they are choosing to do so. >> so he's on the losing side, but you want his his pursuit of these type of cases, almost this recruitment to fall back. >> i want that to. >> fall back. and i also want to note this is the strategy for the conservatives to challenge all kinds of things that they don't like, whether it's supreme court precedents or laws, to just continue chipping away, having 1 or 2 people talk about how this is bad, it's terrible, it's discredited. there's no majority here. he's citing himself over and over again, and eventually he's going to find some people to join him. and so this is just the strategy. just keep chipping away, play the long game and eventually you will actually manifest this. it is a jurisprudence of vibes bad aggrieved vibes, vibes. >> what is on your fallback list? >> my fallback list melissa. >> and ari are. >> the chickens. or shall we say the protesters are coming home

to roost. >> they're all. >> these protests cropping up, even in red districts, protesting all. >> this chaos. >> that's going. >> on with trump because they're realizing that it's. >> affecting their districts. and as it happens. >> two of these. >> districts where this is happening. >> rich mccormick. >> and exurban atlanta. >> and in kootenai county, i. >> spent extensive time in. >> these districts. >> in this. falsehood perpetrated. >> by. >> the. >> speaker. >> that these. >> people are being. >> protested. >> are being paid to protest. >> is so. >> ridiculous. >> who would subject themselves to that? >> well, isn't that interesting, especially given some of the writing you've done, which is why we've had you on the big reality test is what you see in your own community. right? so you see people in the red district saying no to this, right, which might cut against some of people's perceptions about government, etc. and so they have to come up with a lie. they have to say, well, these aren't really your your fellow community members. these are these are fake. it's not fake. news is like internet. this i guess is fake people, even

though it might look like a lot of your neighbors at a republican town hall saying no to elon musk. >> peak fascism. not only do you lie about the substance of policy, but. >> you lie. >> about the dissent against that policy. and it's. >> not only that. >> they're. >> lying about these. >> dissenters, melissa. >> what they're doing is they're taking. >> away the. dissenters with. >> unmarked men in. >> black who did. >> not identify themselves. it's horrific. it's this. >> is the woman. >> in idaho. >> yes. >> the woman in idaho. >> and i had been in idaho to. >> county meetings, republican meetings, into town halls. and for this woman to speak up the way she did, she's clearly upset. >> and so that that's. >> shocking to me or not. so that's my fallback. >> that's that's important. i like both of you brought this is why, you know, people sometimes say, what is this segment? sometimes people say, what is this show? what is this? >> no one hears that. >> that, but the segment is what you guys want to fall back. so you both brought really important things that we hadn't had time to hit yet in the news

today. so thank you both. i want to get to your interesting book. i told people what a great writer you are. it's called talk to me a lot about your family history. you've done a lot looking outward. now you're turning inward. your grandfather, the president of haiti back in the 50s, overthrown by a military coup. as we think about democracy, exiled to the u.s, international press swarmed daniel at the arrival lounge. you recount asking what had happened to him in haiti, what he thought about his predicament, whether he intended to remain in america, and how i literally don't have a penny in my pocket. i had to borrow $100 from the haitian embassy in miami. for now, i don't even know how i'll eat, he recounted then to a journalist, tell us about this book and why people busy with everything else going on might want to read about this personal and immigration story. >> well, thank you for that compliment, ari, but my history is exceptional to the extent that most people don't have a grandfather who is a president of the country. but most people do have families that are riddled with secrets. most

people do have relationships to their mother or to their father that they want to explore more. and i invite them to take this discovery with me to take this journey. >> thanks for watching the beat weekend, and you can always join us weeknights at 6 p.m. eastern us weeknights at 6 p.m. eastern for the beat right her i'm thinking of updating my kitchen... ...thinking of redoing our kitchen. ...we are finally updating our kitchen. for all those people who never seem to get around to it... —...a breakfast nook. —chase has financial guidance. let's see how you can start saving... —really? —really? at home or in-person. that's guidance from chase. ♪ (male vo) big. (female vo) small. essential. (male vo) big. small. essential. (female vo) big. small. (male vo) essential. (female vo) grande. (male vo) pequeño. (female vo) esencial. no matter what business you're in, verizon business has the network and solutions you need to power it. can't.

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