>> physicians mutual. >> physicians mutual. >> that'll do it for me. thanks for watching. i'll be back next saturday and sunday at 6 p.m. eastern. follow us on instagram, tiktok and threads using the handle at weekend capehart and blue sky using at capehart, dot, msnbc.com and catch clips of the show on youtube. you can also listen to every episode as a podcast for free. just scan the qr code on your screen to follow, but don't go anywhere. ayman is next. good evening. >> tonight on. >> ayman. >> ukrainian president volodymyr. >> zelensky returns. >> to europe for help in. >> fighting putin after. >> his. >> fallout with. president trump. >> can peace be achieved without. >> the united states at the

table? plus, will democrats rally behind. disgraced new. york governor andrew. >> cuomo as he attempts. >> a political. comeback as new york. >> city's mayor? >> and some. >> see a nightmare. >> others see a potential for profit. >> when they. >> look at donald trump's plans. >> for mass deportations. >> i'm ayman. >> mohyeldin, let's. >> do it. >> the gop is scrambling in the wake of trump's train wreck of a meeting friday with ukrainian president. volodymyr zelensky. >> today. >> house speaker mike johnson. had a new line of attack on meet. >> the press. >> something has to change. >> either he. >> needs to come to his senses and come back. >> to the table. >> in gratitude, or someone else needs to lead the country to do that. >> in other words, he believes zelensky should resign if. >> he does not. >> follow trump's lead. >> funny how. >> he struck such a different. >> tone towards russian. >> president vladimir putin.

>> i'd like to see. >> putin defeated, frankly. >> he is. >> an. adversary of the united states. but in this conflict, we've got to bring it into this war. it's in everybody's interest. >> johnson wants. >> putin defeated, not out of office like. >> he wants his. >> zelensky, because apparently, getting mad at the guy bombing your country is a step too far. >> and speaker johnson. >> isn't the only one who has been pushing this. >> take, for example. >> senator lindsey graham, one of zelensky's earliest and loudest cheerleaders, now calling on him. >> to step. >> down as well. and then there's the man. >> who escorted. >> the ukrainian president out of the white house. after the meeting, national security advisor mike waltz. he told cnn that zelensky was the one not negotiating in good faith. again, this from the same guy who once compared zelensky. >> to winston churchill. >> not every republican is on board. >> with this. >> and plenty. >> of democrats. >> are furious. over how all of this went down. and the one person who should be handling all. >> of this. >> the secretary of state. >> america's top diplomat.

>> marco rubio. well, he is the guy who. >> just sat. >> there grimacing in his chair, observing from afar as this whole mess unfolded. >> melting into the couch. on abc news today. rubio said. >> he's had no. >> communication with zelensky. >> since friday. >> adding that, quote. >> you cannot end a war unless both sides. >> come to the table. >> trump's team is trying to spin this like zelensky doesn't want a solution or at least isn't putting in the work. but as the political. >> drama here plays out. >> zelensky has shown quite the opposite. in fact, he flew straight to. >> europe after. >> the fallout, actually doing the work, finding. >> solutions and. >> engaging in real diplomacy. >> with. >> his european counterparts. >> there's a bigger question. >> hanging over all of. this can ukraine achieve peace without the united states? sure, there are technically. >> options. >> and ukraine. >> has enough in its defense fund to slow russia down for now. >> but it's a long shot. in the long run, alliances and foreign policy have been built around u.s. involvement for years. trying to go it alone now

wouldn't just be difficult. >> for ukraine. >> some argue it would be nearly impossible. the uk did announce a new $2 billion deal to fund ukraine's air defense missiles, and multiple. >> countries did. commit to establishing. >> a peacekeeping force in ukraine. but take a listen to what the british prime minister, keir starmer, said. >> the u.k. is prepared to back this with boots on the ground and planes in the air, together with others. europe must do the heavy lifting, but to support peace in our continent and to succeed, this effort must have strong us backing. >> america's biggest. >> strongest ally. >> now pleading for the united. states to simply be reliable. and believe it or not, they want that help to fight a dictator. with me. >> now, michelle. >> cross, democratic. >> strategist and campaign adviser to president, former president barack obama. and rick wilson, co-founder of the lincoln project. he's also the

author of running against. >> the. >> devil a. plot to save america from trump and democrats from themselves. >> it's great. >> to have both of you with us. >> rick. >> let me start with what we just learned. >> moments ago on the. national security front before we. even get to. >> ukraine, but a truly bizarre development coming out of the pentagon. we learned. >> that the defense. >> secretary. >> pete hegseth, has stopped all cyber operations. >> against russia. >> the washington post. >> is. >> reporting that their motive. >> is to. >> bring vladimir. >> putin to. >> the negotiating table with zelensky. >> and i'm curious what you think about this development. >> how dangerous. >> is this generally? and does this something like this. >> even help a fair deal? >> because i'm willing to bet that i do not think. >> the folks in moscow are making a decision to stop any of their cyber operations against the united states. >> quite clearly, since there's. >> still. >> you know, the ongoing russian they substituted being a strong nation for having a strong external cyber capacity in a lot of these questions. >> but look. >> i think that. >> this is. >> treason adjacent. you do not.

unilaterally disarm against the russians. >> this is 101 stuff. >> this isn't hard to understand. this is stuff that that for those. >> of. >> us who. >> were in that. >> last generation. >> of young cold. >> warriors, we get it internally. it used to be a fundamental principle. >> of. >> of. >> republicans that you didn't disarm unilaterally. >> you didn't let dictators run wild. you didn't let someone like. >> vladimir putin. >> have an open battlefield where. >> you've disarmed yourself. >> so. >> look, i'm sure pete hegseth is. >> very busy firing. >> black people. >> and women. >> so he's not. >> focused on the actual target here, which is vladimir putin, which is. >> one of. >> our only peer enemies in the world. >> let me speak. let me get your thoughts. >> on that. >> as well, really quickly, rick. i mean, the. >> reaction from the international. >> community and how they're viewing trump versus zelensky. you've got european allies quickly rallying. >> and. >> siding with zelensky. today in this kind of impromptu security meeting that they organized. he met, even symbolically important with king charles of the uk. how well did zelensky handle the aftermath

versus how trump did? >> look, i. >> think zelensky handled. >> the. >> aftermath beautifully. >> i also think he handled. >> the meeting. >> as well as anyone could. it was a. >> set up. >> it was a it was a prank. >> that trump and vance and rubio set up. and by the way, i. >> don't give. >> rubio a pass. he had. >> to be. >> involved in this. there's no question that he knew what was coming. and he sat there looking guilty, watching his soul wither away live on television. >> but these people knew what. >> they were getting into. and they're not pursuing american interests. they're pursuing putin's interests. >> mr. zelensky said he believes he can. >> salvage his. >> relationship with the u.s, and we know that any plans from europe need u.s. backing. the question is donald trump here? donald trump has made clear that he is not prepared to. and even mike johnson reiterated that today. to some extent, that they're not prepared to bring him back. >> to the white house or into. >> the diplomatic fold until he. >> i guess. >> apologizes, shows. gratitude to the united states. i don't know what in what term. that exactly. >> looks like, but also.

>> basically bended knee to donald trump. >> yeah, donald trump wants to. >> see vladimir zelensky grovel. he wants to see him beg. he wants to see him be apologetic. but he. >> also wants. >> to hear. >> shouting down of thank. >> yous to him. >> personally, not to the united states, not to our long standing foreign policy, not to our, you know, relationships that have existed across europe for quite some time. he wants to hear it from him. >> and that and even. >> if he was. >> to. >> do it, i don't think that that would change the animus that trump has. he kept screaming during that meeting. you don't have the cards. you don't have the cards. well, guess what? trump doesn't either. he gave his whole deck over to vladimir putin willingly. so at this point, it is one of those things where you have to in terms of what we're seeing with. >> zelensky. >> he has to have a. certain amount of faith in the united. >> states in the. >> same way that we saw uk's. >> prime minister speak to. >> that, not completely abandoning. >> the. >> fact that the us has stood proudly. >> by its european allies for generations. >> but on that same token, they. >> know that they. >> have a clown in office here. they know that. >> they have someone who doesn't

care what he looks. >> like on the world. >> stage. >> and. >> they know that they have. someone who, to rick's. >> point. >> who the bait. that's all that. conversation was. he played it for an american. >> audience, primarily. >> because trump wanted to seem like he was strong arming. >> he wanted to take. >> people. >> for a ride. >> in the american public, who aren't. necessarily as tuned in to the history of. >> what has been happening with ukraine, what has. >> been happening with putin. >> i will give it to zelensky. he did the best he could with the. hand he had been dealt, and he went down that history because it's not just trump. there were problems associated with the lack of. interventionism across. >> three presidential. >> administrations, and. >> that's how we got to where we are now. but in no uncertain terms, can. >> the united states afford to back away. >> because should they do so, we. >> will see. >> what is the equivalent. >> of. world war three. >> putin will not stop. he will go through ukraine. >> he will. >> capture it, and he will continue on and try to rebuild mother russia. >> that has always. >> been his goal. >> let's talk about the republicans for a minute. i mean, a lot of republicans are contradicting themselves when it comes to zelensky. now, among the most notable lindsey graham,

mike waltz and so on. even marco rubio, to some extent, some are saying things like not another penny or america first. but the irony is that zelensky seemed poised to sign the deal that would have actually given america what trump was asking for. and a huge reason trump seems mad is because of zelensky's rightful bashing of vladimir putin. he just simply. and the republicans just don't want him bashing vladimir putin, the guy that is invading ukraine and killing ukrainians every day. they they seem to be upset that zelensky doesn't want to be nice in his language and in his terminology, against vladimir putin. >> and the reason why is because donald trump envisions himself having the same type of leadership. >> that putin has over his own country. >> and he also is still very much butthurt, for lack of a better term, over all of the instigations of and the proof that was found that russia interfered in the 2016 election cycle. so there is a frustration that donald trump has and he will never let go of that has

absolutely nothing to do with zelensky or the. >> crimes that are. >> being committed against his. country by putin right now, and the thousands of people, the. >> hundreds of. >> thousands of people that are dying regularly. trump doesn't care because he fashions himself as a dictator. he wants to have state based media. he wants to have a population that can not speak against the government, ever, or at any time. he wants to be able to decide from the bench of the white house what matters and what doesn't. and he wants to eradicate our system of checks and balances. there is something to donald trump wanting to uphold dictators. it is because he also wants to see them remain in power. abroad and to strengthen him here. he does not believe in democracy and he doesn't believe in it in europe either. >> rick. there are some, you. >> know. >> democrats, perhaps from the james carville school who think the democrats should. >> kind of. >> sit back, let the republicans own this, let them break it. they will definitely own it. some say that is too grave of a risk when it comes to something like ukraine. what do you think the democrats should be doing right now? do they have any

levers of power that they can use to try? i mean, ukraine. support for ukraine used to be bipartisan just a few years ago. now it's fully. >> it seems. >> like. it's a partizan issue with most republicans, if not all. >> totally following donald trump's lead on this. >> what can democrats. >> do, if anything? >> well. >> look, the democrats can shut it down. and this is what they need to start thinking about. they think of things in this sort of serial way. one issue, then another issue, then another issue. they need to do what mitch mcconnell would do if he was in the minority with the opposing party right now. shut it down. don't give mike johnson a deal on anything. don't give don't give john thune a deal on anything. freeze everything. hold every other appointment. stop every process. tell them that this is unacceptable. and it's not just about ukraine. >> it's about. >> the entire destructive character of trump's administration. and the democrats need to show america, not that they're going. >> to have. >> better policies. they need to show them that they have some

fight, and these people will not stop fighting. they will always. and the problem with james is, and i love james, but the problem with this theory is that the republicans have a goal line. they don't. they will keep going. the shark will eat until you kill it. the shark will keep eating until you stop it from eating anymore. so you got to fight these people on every front. and the democrats, if they if mitch mcconnell was chuck schumer, he would be. absolutely wrecking the hell out of donald trump every minute. >> of the day. >> so fight. >> yeah, definitely. that's more and more people. >> are calling for the democrats to do just that. we'll see if they actually heed that call. rick wilson and. misha cross, thank you to the both of you for. starting us off tonight. greatly appreciate it as always. >> coming up, we're going to look at andrew. >> cuomo's mayoral run, specifically what his return to politics could mean for the democrats that are welcoming him back. >> we're going to talk to. >> fellow new yorker, former congressman jamaal bowman about congressman jamaal bowman about that and much more. asthma. does it have you missing out on what you love

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>> given the amount of time and energy democrats have given to arguing that donald trump is unfit to lead, especially on the topic of sexual misconduct, you think someone else would be leading the party's race for new york city mayor? >> we know new york is in crisis, but we know something else. we know that we can turn this city around, and we know we will. >> yeah. that's former. >> new york governor andrew cuomo kicking off his campaign to unseat disgraced new york city mayor eric adams. cuomo resigned as new york governor in 2021 amid a string of accusations that included sexual assault from multiple women and a scandal involving nursing home deaths during the covid 19 pandemic. still, cuomo's chances to become the next new york city mayor are looking pretty good for him. a number of recent polls show him well ahead of the democratic field, but he'll have to contend with the fox talking heads and other conservative

commentators who will almost certainly deride his record on urban crime, immigration and the homeless population. so where does this leave democrats? they spent years calling out trump for alleged sexual improprieties. do they risk losing the high ground by going with cuomo? at least one democrat thinks so. zoran mamdani is a state lawmaker from queens who is polling second behind cuomo in most polls following the former governor's announcement. he put out this statement. now he's. >> decided to. >> move from westchester to new york city with the. promise of. >> leading. >> us through the chaos of donald trump. but andrew. cuomo is the chaos. >> my next. >> guest is a. >> longtime critic of cuomo, former new york congressman jamaal bowman. he recently launched a pac aimed at helping progressive candidates and to appeal to voters disenfranchized by the democratic party. >> congressman. >> it's great to see you on the show. welcome back. >> good to be. >> with you. you look well rested and healthy. you look like you're not.

>> you're done. with the. >> chaos of. >> washington. >> but you're ready to get back into the fight with this pac that you're launching. >> yeah. ready to take on local fights? there's a lot going on in westchester county and yonkers, mount vernon, new rochelle, port chester and greenburg specifically. a lot happening in new york city, specifically in the bronx and in brooklyn and queens. we need huge voter turnout and huge voter engagement in the bronx and yonkers in particular. and this pack, the built to win super pac, is designed to target disenfranchized voters, to target voters that have been left behind and ignored by both the democratic party and the republican party. and this is not just about elections. it's about year round organizing, digital organizing, comms organizing, combined with field organizing, targeting specifically black communities, asian communities, arab communities, and latino communities. it's not being done right now. we're tired of being ignored or ignored. we have tremendous voting and engagement power. it's time for us to use it. >> i want to.

>> get more into the specifics of what you. >> just outlined on the pack, but let me get your thoughts really quickly on this mayoral race and specifically andrew cuomo throwing his hat in and making a run for it. what do you make of that? and is it going to be hypocritical for democrats who spent years calling out donald trump for his alleged sexual misconduct, but now turning a blind, blind eye to andrew cuomo's? >> well, we'll see. >> what the voters are ultimately going to do. i'm glad you highlighted zoran's campaign. he's been running an excellent campaign. he's really been breaking through, and more people need to know the name zohran mamdani. in addition, brad lander, our current city controller, is incredibly competent, and he's someone who can run the city on day one if he's elected. it's really important, to your point, for the rest of the democratic party, the slates, the people who are running to put forward what their vision for new york city is and not only spend time attacking cuomo. listen, there's a lot to attack as it relates to cuomo. you mentioned the sexual assault allegations. that's one

tens of thousands of additional deaths to our seniors in nursing homes miscounted and misreported by the cuomo administration. cuomo was governor for ten years. i was a middle school principal during that time. the governor did not fully fund public schools once while he was governor for ten years. that's hurting 1.1 million kids. so there's a lot to target the governor on, but the other candidates have to share their vision for where new york city needs to go. and then lastly, governor was governor for ten years. affordable housing was an issue. then jobs were an issue. then i mentioned a lack of investment in education. you could have built more affordable housing. you could have started more job programs. as governor, what's going to change now? and then one last thing you mentioned. he mentioned in his in his video talking about fighting anti-semitism, as we should. he joined netanyahu's

legal team. netanyahu is being charged by the icc for genocide, and he did not mention palestinians once and did not mention the lives lost in gaza once. this is a city majority people of color, huge arab community, huge muslim community. he needs to hear from them immediately. >> so let's talk about then. >> the pack and how the. pack is going. >> to help. >> with those voices. >> i mean, one of the criticisms. >> sometimes against. >> people of color minorities is that they're not politically engaged for a variety of reasons, whether it's socioeconomic or where they are in their communities, may not feel that the political system actually represents them. and so they remain on the sidelines of it. how does this pack and what you're trying to do with what you outlined, mobilize those people in a city like new york, as you just said, muslim voters who believe that the issue of gaza is important, perhaps some of them sat it out because they didn't want to vote for the vice president. they want to vote for donald trump. and as a result, now we get stuck with a donald trump. >> there, right? the political

system doesn't represent them because we keep recycling candidates like donald trump, like andrew cuomo. you know, who represents the people? jamaal bowman represents the people. cori bush represents the people. aoc represents the people. zoran mamdani represents the people. there are people out there who are in the political system, who represent the people, who get them excited and get them engaged. this pac started by me and others like me, is going to unapologetically continue to engage and target and pull in the people who've been ignored, first by going into their communities and listening and learning and understanding and then aligning our resources, our funds, to the needs of those communities and helping them to get engaged and build power in those communities. >> we know that, unfortunately, one aspect of power in this country is money. you've got your pac, and now there is a super pac being launched in support of andrew cuomo by his allies called fix the city. they

aim to raise $15 million from wealthy donors. how do you compete with that? >> yeah, it's not always about money. see, money is a big part of it. yes, but they don't have a story to tell that will really inspire the people i'm talking about targeting. so, yes, our pac has to raise has to raise money. so please, everyone give as much as you can. but it's about the story that we're telling that connects with the people who have been left behind. people know intuitively and they feel it every day in their pockets. they can't afford to live. they're struggling to afford childcare, utilities, housing, jobs, etc, etc. we know that pain because we come from that pain and because we're engaging them in the process, they'll be more inspired and more likely to engage with what we're doing than what a $15 million pac is going to keep giving you the same talking points, the same speeches that we've been getting for decades that led us to two trump presidencies. that's not what we want anymore. we need a new vision and a path forward. >> you've got your hands full with this pac, and you've also

launched a show. on with our good friend maggie hassan. quite incredible. how are you doing? how are you doing it all? >> i'm in the gym. i'm not in washington. that's what it is. >> that explains why it. >> looks so good. >> thank you. good to see you, congressman. >> really appreciate it. absolutely. >> quick break right afterwards. how you can fight back against trump and musk's. assault on american institutions. stay with us. >> consumer cellular ranked number one in network. >> coverage and customer satisfaction. hi. >> my friend linda has you guys and gets way better coverage than i do. >> sounds like. >> linda has you. >> beat only. >> in. >> coverage and. plans start at $20. >> okay. >> price to call or visit consumer cellular to switch today. my eyes. >> they're dry. >> uncomfortable. looking for extra hydration. now there's blink nutri tears. it works differently than drops. blink nutri tears is a once daily supplement clinically proven to hydrate from within, helping your eyes produce more of their own tears to promote lasting, continuous relief. you'll feel

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buddy elon musk's ongoing attempts to dismantle the government through doge. just this past week, thousands of usaid workers were laid off, given only 15 minutes to gather their belongings and leave. the white house is also directing other federal agencies to prepare for large scale layoffs. and, of course, staffers across multiple agencies are under deadline to respond to doge and their managers with a list of their work accomplishments last week. of course, all of this power is being handed to musk, an unelected official, by president trump, and all indications are that trump loves what his new i.t. guy is doing. however, for those who don't have billions in the bank to curry favor with the white house, how can you help fight against their demolition of government? our next guest says there are multiple options. michael waldman is the president and ceo of the brennan center of justice here at new york university. >> law. >> it's great to have you on the show. a lot of interesting things are happening here, and i'm wondering if we are getting to this kind of like tipping

point where we see large scale protests. it's safe to say we're seeing now protests in multiple arenas or multiple areas, if you will, venues all across, even tesla. i think we have, you know, there have been outside of his tesla stores. we've seen it in, you know, town hall meetings with republican officials. how do you gauge the size of what is happening and whether or not we're it is percolating even more. >> remember that in 2010 when. >> people showed. up at town halls. >> of democratic members of congress, even though some of that was astroturf and not actually real grassroots. >> began to make people. >> see that there was a reaction. >> and response. >> on the right to what president barack obama was doing. we're just at the beginning. of the politics of this moment. i think that the notion that there is shock and awe requires all of. >> us to be shocked and awed. and i don't think that. >> the. laws of political physics have been repealed. i think the kind of. >> aggressive and often illegal

action that we've seen. >> is producing. >> and will. >> produce a reaction. just to give you one example, even before all the. >> craziness, a poll. >> by the associated press about a. >> month ago asked, do you think it's a good thing that. >> the president is listening to these billionaires? >> right? >> the share that. was very good or somewhat. >> good was 12%, right. that's a huge political achilles heel. >> and you're starting. >> to see. >> at town halls. >> i suppose, at tesla warehouses and in. >> other ways. >> that people can make their voices heard. the people are speaking up. >> and that's such an important part of our democracy. we often think of our engagement as almost, you know, every four years or every two years, or if it's on a ballot or not. and that is a huge, important part of it. but right now, in the absence of any kind of meaningful power that the democrats have in congress or outside of congress, hearing from constituents directly is perhaps one of the most important tools that citizens have. >> yeah. >> i think there are really

three ways. >> we can all be very. involved right now. >> what are those? >> you know, and it's not just a million people on the mall. >> or the quiet of the ballot box in. >> two years, right? >> i mean, one of them is we all. >> have platforms now. it's true. we don't have one. >> walter cronkite. telling us that's the way it is. that's these are these are the facts. but everybody. >> now has, through. >> their social media platforms, the ability to. >> share the stories. >> of their friends who are. scientists at cdc. >> who've been laid off, farmers. >> who lose their. >> benefits, and all these other. kinds of things that are very human and have great credibility. a second thing is, none of us should let congress off the hook. the key constitutional crisis here is if congress does not do its job of standing up to abuse of power. and so democrats. >> need to wake up. >> republicans need not to. be let. off the hook. also. that's why these town halls are so important. when they happen. >> you then see. >> the. republican members of congress kind of say, you know, actually, can we slow this down a little bit? and the last thing

i'd. >> say is. the main way. >> in our society. >> and our. >> democracy that we, the people. >> get to hold. >> power accountable is at the ballot box. >> there's going to be a. >> midterm election next year. there's already efforts to restrict and suppress the vote. people should be screaming about legislation like the save act, which would be something that would effectively require people to show a passport or a birth certificate to register to vote. in the united states, it would be probably not the worst voting bill ever dreamed up, but it would be. >> the worst. >> voting bill ever passed into law. it would affect this election. we need. >> to stop that now. >> those are the kinds of things, their sort of everyday politics, maybe. are they rising to the moment of what may be an epic crisis, but they're actually how we can have a big impact. >> so what can democrats do right now? and you talked about an important part of this, which is, you know, you need to have the other side. you need to have the opposition party in this country in some ways lead that charge and perhaps also capture

that sentiment that is now beginning to emerge. and i just i'm curious your thoughts. is there a democratic leader who is emerging as somebody who can kind of lead the party, lead this opposition, and if not, what can the party do to capture this sentiment legislatively? >> democrats are in a tough spot. >> because. >> they don't have. >> the majority, although. >> they're only in the minority in the. >> house by 1 or 2 votes. >> there will be a big moment in the coming months when. >> there's a budget. >> showdown, when there's a potential government shutdown, and even the endless crisis over raising the debt ceiling. and i am not going to be surprised if the democrats. >> stand their. >> ground on that spot where they have some real, actual leverage. what will they be demanding? will they be talking about, you know, will move forward with this funding bill? if you fire elon musk, will they say. >> what we. >> want to. do is protect medicaid and these other vital social programs? that's actually not clear. they can use their voices. you see somebody like senator chris murphy, who

doesn't have any particular power in this more than anyone else, but who's been a very consistent, loud advocate. i think even in the response to the what i regard as appalling treatment of zelensky in the oval office, where you really heard members of congress really shouting about it. yeah, that's the kind of thing that has to happen. the public needs to know. i think that this isn't normal business as usual. >> let me get your final thoughts on what is kind of played out here with elon musk and this kind of initial wave of emails to say, tell me what you've done. last week it was three points, now it's five points. in the beginning, you actually had an initial pushback between, you know, the secretary of defense, even tulsi gabbard, kash patel at the fbi, fbi saying, don't respond to those emails. it seems like now they've all basically caved in. and i'm wondering what that reveals about the trump alliance to elon musk as opposed to his own cabinet picks. >> look. >> we barely even have the

language to describe what's going on, right? there's always been big money in american politics to have the world's wealthiest person effectively pay for the winning presidential campaign, run much of it, move into the white house, and then be given free reign to upend the government, like we've seen is like nothing else in american history. and like nothing else that a democracy has seen. the key thing to remember is so much of what musk is doing is unconstitutional or illegal. usaid was created by congress. they can't just shut it down by going and firing everybody and cutting off the funding. i think it's not only that people didn't really vote in this election for massive social spending cuts. trump was always somebody who said he didn't want that, but that it's illegal. a lot of these court cases already have ruled against them. the supreme court is going to have to step up, and this will help define the politics and the law of the coming months. >> yeah, and it'll certainly be a defining moment in our

nation's history as to how the supreme court comes down on so many of these issues. but it's safe to say we're still in the shock and awe period of everything that is happening with the past couple of months. >> i think people a few months ago were kind of checked out. >> yeah. >> a month ago they were kind of stunned and depressed. i think people are getting angry. >> and starting to reengage. mike waldman, thank you so much. great to have you on the show. really appreciate it. after the break, cashing in on cruelty. why trump's plans for mass. deportations sound really good to people like the former blackwater ceo erik prince. next hour, i'll be talking to professor jeffrey sachs about what's next for russia's war in ukraine. after his rather explosive address to the eu explosive address to the eu parliament. if you take or have taken humira for moderate to severe crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis and still have symptoms... you don't have to settle. ask your gastroenterologist if switching to rinvoq is right for you. it's one of the latest treatments from the makers of humira. rinvoq works differently than humira and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill

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eric prince, along with other prominent military contractors, pitched a $25 billion idea to his advisers that recommends a range of aggressive tactics to rapidly deport 12 million people before the 2026 midterms, as reported by politico. those aggressive tactics included a network of processing camps on military bases, a private fleet of 100 planes and a small army of private citizens empowered to make arrests. it's concerning for a number of reasons, because it allows ceos to profit from the cruelty, and because it is a clear sign that we are not learning from history. let's take you back a few decades to the very founding of blackwater in the late 1990s. prince's private military company started out by receiving federal contracts to train sailors for the us navy. it was a lucrative business, and by 2002, they had signed a $35 million contract with the pentagon to train more than 10,000 sailors across this country. blackwater expanded rapidly, winning contracts with the state department, central intelligence agency, the

department of defense, the list goes on, but the company is best known for its role in providing security, training and logistical support to u.s. forces in iraq and afghanistan during the post 911 war on terror, which eventually led to the tragic square massacre in 2007. it was there that blackwater contractors shot and killed 17 iraqi civilians and wounded 20 others. several contractors were charged with manslaughter and four were convicted. in 2014, the company came under intense scrutiny, leading to prince stepping down as ceo in 2009, and blackwater was later sold, and it's changed names at least twice since. now largely shunned by the american public, prince left the united states for the united arab emirates, where he was hired by their government to build an 800 member battalion of foreign troops. and over the next several years, he tried to sell his vision of this kind of new mercenary warfare around the world. but when trump came onto the political scene in 2015, he saw an opening to get back into

the business of the us government, becoming an unofficial adviser to trump's presidential campaign. well after trump won the election, prince began sending defense and intelligence policy proposals to his team through his longtime friend steve bannon, including his plan for privatizing the war in afghanistan. and according to robert mueller's final report, prince helped fund former trump adviser michael flynn's efforts to find hillary clinton's emails and lied about his meeting with a russian oligarch to congress. the secret meeting, set up by the uae was an apparent effort to establish a back channel line of communication between moscow and trump. in 2018, prince reportedly helped raise money for an effort to spy on progressives and democratic organizations opposed to trump. and remember those four blackwater contractors convicted of manslaughter over that massacre in iraq? they were pardoned by trump at the end of his first term. so you can kind of get it. trump and prince have formed a transactional and

beneficial relationship, and now prince appears to see a second opportunity by cashing in on trump's promise to deport some 12 million people by the 2026 midterms. in a recent interview, prince said he has no indication from the trump administration that they are going to take up his plan. but the fact that it's even possible is the problem. a man who has dedicated his life to profiting off of wars should not be able to profit from deportations from a country that exists because of immigrants. i'm going to speak to investigative journalist matthew cole, who has reported extensively on blackwater and extensively on blackwater and erik prince. after asthma. does it have you missing out on what you love, with who you love? get back to better breathing with fasenra, an add-on treatment for eosinophilic asthma taken once every 8 weeks. fasenra is not for sudden breathing problems. serious allergic reactions may occur. get help for swelling of your face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. don't stop your asthma treatments without talking with your doctor.

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buffet of all you can eat. butterflies, shrimp and sirloin steak. >> yeah, that's. >> the reason. >> i don't get it. >> do you have any idea. >> how much this would cost at other restaurants? >> not really. i'm only six. >> a lot, honey. a lot, kiddo. >> oh, okay. >> yeah. >> before the break, i talked about former blackwater ceo erik prince and his deep ties to president trump throughout the years. he is tied to many infamous tragedies during his time overseeing the private military company, including a massacre of 17 iraqi civilians back in 2007. and now, according to reporting by politico, prince, along with other prominent military contractors, want in on trump's mass deportation plan. with me now is investigative journalist matthew cole, who has described prince as an emblematic figure for the trump era. he is also the author of the book code over country. matthew, it's great to have you on the show. nobody knows blackwater better than you, and certainly erik prince. that quote of yours was actually from

a piece you wrote back in 2019, where you reported on how prince used the first trump administration to make an improbable comeback. and here he is in a second trump administration trying to do that in this mass deportation scheme. your first thoughts on prince's pitch? and, you know, he just couldn't help himself, could he? but here he is. >> well, first. >> i mean, thank you for having me. it's great to be on. i was. >> thinking. >> actually, in your reader and during the break that, you know, in a normal and by. >> normal. >> i mean the first term under trump. this story would have been pretty explosive. but given everything that's going on on a almost hourly basis. with things such as what you were describing with your previous guest with doge and elon musk and. the incredible shift in, you know, u.s. foreign policy under trump. this time, the story doesn't quite meet the same level it might have. and i published a story in 2017 along with my

colleague, then, jeremy scahill, about prince selling a trying to sell a private cia policy and unit. >> to. >> trump the first time. so he's never, ever not trying to hustle. i think a lot of what we're seeing in this policy is, you know, i want to sort of view it sort of two ways or give you two scenarios. the first is, is that it's sort of just a maga grift. that it's a very cynical play. he sees what trump says on the campaign trail about how he's going to throw everyone out. and so he puts together very hastily a $25 billion sort of bridge to nowhere plan to move, you know, 12 million people out of the country in what he says is two years. let's hold right there and just say it's totally impossible, right? there's virtually no scenario where that works or can happen. whether you were doing it with the u.s. government or whether

you were doing it with the u.s. government and private contractors. so there's that's part of it. and that's sort of scenario number one. and that's, you know, in that scenario, if trump, the trump administration, were to utilize any, you know, take up any part of this proposal, you know. >> you would be seeing. >> something that you might expect, which is, you know, graft, greed, grift. i mean, you know, i think it was not it. was ironic, but not surprising that the politico story quoted steve. >> bannon talking about it. >> steve bannon is sort of erik prince's right hand man. they have business ties together. and, you know, he's a guy who just pled guilty to a fraud, you know, for fraud in relation to something from the border the first time around. so there's sort of like this cyclical. these guys just don't stop trying to sell. the second scenario, which i think is far more terrifying and unfortunately we can't discount,

is. from what prince's proposal appears to be, you're looking at 10,000 mercenaries armed, kicking in doors in private homes in america and poorly trained. right. so what you're talking about really is blackwater 2.0, but inside the united states. and it takes one time, one time that you get some kind of, you know, untrained, you know, a massacre of some kind of event. that would, you know, this is we're talking about things that are just historically unprecedented. they're immoral. they're really gross. and, you know, truly, prince makes a career out of this. he tries to, you know, the worst case scenario. you know, he had a plan in libya a few years ago under the first trump term and a little bit before where he was pitching something similar, which was kind of like an anti-migration plan, and it was sort of a three stage thing on the on the surface. it was

trying to stop african migrants who were making their way through libya, across the mediterranean, into europe. right. and but, you know, i was talking to sources at the time who were working with prince and helping him with some of these ideas, or i should say that we're we're advising him about elements of the program. and what they told me at the time was, okay, on the surface, this is an anti-migration plan, but once you step back, you can see that there's more going on here, which is after the, let's say your 9 to 5 is done when the job is completed. what you have left is an army, a private army. and so in a foreign country that's, you know, unbelievably dangerous. and meanwhile, the contract and the vehicle that he's getting, there's an enormous amount of padding and theft going on. so you have this scenario where prince is offering blackwater in the united states, taxpayer funded $25 billion. and when it's done, he walks away with a private

army that belongs to him. so i you can't downplay how terrifying this could be. >> yeah. no, certainly. and terrifying and dangerous. let me ask you really quickly, because you have reported on this pretty extensively and, you know, but i'm curious to get your thoughts on prince's connections to russia now, given this seismic shift that we've seen here in the united states, specifically on the ukraine war, and whether or not that is something to also be tracking. and you you so eloquently said that on any normal day or in a normal administration, this story would probably be the lead story across a lot of networks right now. it's barely getting enough attention. >> well, you know, prince's relationship or connection to russia has been is pretty extensive and has gone back at least 15 years. but he has, you know, largely been able to maintain plausible deniability for essentially playing footsies with wagner, which was, you know, until recently, the. >> sort of equivalent.

>> of the mercenary group that they had. yeah. >> right. and, you know, mercenaries who do the work of, you know, who, who are supplied by kremlin to foreign governments to kill and to prop up dictators. i mean, that's what they do. and it's, you know, in a sense, it was kind of like the russia's version of blackwater. and then prince tried to get a little bit in on the action. and what he went, he went to ukraine to try to sort of build his own. that would have been funded by arab governments and supported by what was a second trump term. you know, his relationship to russia is it's not deep. i know from my sources inside russia that they looked at they they've studied prince as to whether or not he'd be a good sort of way to get into trump and the white house as a disinformation agent in the first term. they thought he was possible, but they didn't use him that way. >> you know, just to really see it really kind of highlights just how much of a shadowy

figure he has been on the world stage for the last couple of years. i really appreciate it. we're going to continue this conversation. thank you so much, as always, for your reporting and everything else. thanks for joining us. >> thanks for. >> thanks for. >> having me. take c if you're living with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis or active psoriatic arthritis... symptoms can sometimes hold you back. but now there's skyrizi, so you can be all in with clearer skin. ♪ things are getting clearer ♪ ♪ yeah, i feel free to bare my skin ♪ ♪ yeah, that's all me ♪ ♪♪ ♪ nothing is everything ♪ with skyrizi, you can show up with 90% clearer skin... and if you have psoriatic arthritis. skyrizi can help you move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. skyrizi is just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. don't use if allergic. serious allergic reactions, increased infections or lower ability to fight them may occur. before treatment, get checked for infections and tb. tell your doctor about any flu-like symptoms or vaccines. thanks to skyrizi, there's nothing like clearer skin and better movement,

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