that relationship goes next. white house correspondent for the hill, alex gangitano. thank you as always. and that was way too early for this monday morning. morning joe starts right now. >> why don't you wear a suit? >> you're the highest. level in this. >> country's office. >> and you refuse to wear. >> a suit. >> just want to. >> see if you do own a suit. >> yeah, you. >> have problems. >> a lot of americans. >> have problems. >> with you not respecting. >> i didn't have signs. i will wear a costume after this war will finish. >> you are. not strong. >> with respect, i think it's disrespectful. >> for you. >> to come into the. >> oval office. >> in front of the american media. >> you should be. >> thanking the. >> president for. >> trying to. >> bring an end. >> to this. >> have you ever been to ukraine? did you say what problems we have? >> i have. >> been to. come once. >> i have actually. i've actually watched. >> and seen. >> the stories and i. know what happens is you. >> bring. >> people. >> you bring them. >> on. >> a propaganda tour. >> you got to be more thankful because let me tell you, you don't have the cards with us. you have the cards, but without

us, you don't have any cards. the problem is, i've empowered you to be a tough guy. and i don't think you'd be a tough guy without the united states. and your people are very brave. but you're either going to make a deal or we're out. and if we're out, you'll fight it out. i don't think it's going to be pretty, but you'll fight it out. but you don't have the cards. >> why don't you wear a suit? >> why don't. >> you wear a suit? >> you're the. >> highest level. >> in this. >> country's office. >> and you refuse to wear. >> a suit. >> i just want to. >> see if you do own a suit. >> yeah? yeah. >> problems. >> a lot of americans. >> have problems with you. >> not respecting. >> i didn't have such. i will wear a costume after this war will finish. >> all right. >> good morning, and welcome to morning joe. it's monday, march 3rd with us. >> we have. >> the co-host of our fourth. >> hour contributing writer at the. >> atlantic. >> jonathan lemire, president and founder of eurasia group. >> and. >> gzero media. ian bremmer. >> is here, columnist. >> and associate.

>> editor for the washington post. david ignatius. >> chairman of. >> the renewed. >> democracy initiative. >> former world. >> chess champion. garry kasparov and wall. >> street journal reporter. >> alan cullison. >> he is a former moscow correspondent for the journal, reporting. from russia for over 20 years. >> mr. kasparov. i suspect this. >> is more. >> personal to you than most. i'm curious your thoughts on what you just saw there, what you saw on friday, what you've been seeing throughout the weekend. >> yeah, of course i was surprised by the spat in in the white house, but somehow it was expected, because when you look at the actions of this administration and also at the at the words from many officials like jd vance, you saw that the train has been moving in this direction and everything they did and said, you know, somehow benefited russia. so supporting neo nazi party in germany, on

russia funding, supporting a neo-nazi candidate in romania, actually orban fascist, also funded by russia. and in everything that you know that that we saw actually every. action had a russian component behind it. and i say that i believe in coincidences, but i also believe in kgb. and i'm still i don't understand even now, look, look again at this, at this episode. if the deal was good. so why this kind of exchange, you know, derailed it. if the deal was good for the united states, why the jd vance intervened and clearly it was an intention to take zelensky off the balance and make sure that this signing is not happening. >> well. >> it certainly triggered a response in europe. one day after. >> that tense oval office. >> confrontation. >> president zelensky arrived in. >> london, where british prime minister. >> keir starmer. >> walked out. >> of ten downing. >> street to. >> greet him. >> with a warm embrace. >> he reaffirmed.

>> the uk's. >> support for. ukraine and. >> pledged a $2.8 billion military loan to the country. >> i hope you heard some of that cherry in the street. that is the people of the united kingdom coming out to demonstrate how much they support you, how much they support ukraine, and our absolute determination to stand with you, the unwavering determination. >> the prime. >> minister also. >> hosted a high stakes. >> summit yesterday, with european. >> leaders urging. >> nations to boost aid, maintain pressure on russia and form a coalition of the willing for ukraine's defense. >> compare that with the contentious. >> oval office meeting on friday. between president trump, vice president jd. >> vance and. >> ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky. >> the visit. started off. >> cordial but. >> got more. >> tense as trump took questions from. reporters in the room. >> the meeting. >> turned hostile after vance.

>> accused zelenskyy of being. >> disrespectful and not being thankful. >> enough for u.s. assistance. leading to several. minutes of heated exchanges. >> what kind of diplomacy, jd, you are speaking about? what what what what do you mean? >> i'm talking about the kind. >> of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country. >> yes, but mr. >> president, mr. president, with. >> respect. >> i. >> think it's disrespectful. >> for. >> you to. >> come into. >> the oval office and. >> try to litigate this. >> in front. >> of. >> the american media. right now, you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines. because you have manpower problems. you should be thanking the. >> president for. >> trying to. >> bring an end to. >> this conflict. >> in ukraine, that you say what problems we have. >> i have. been to. come one. >> i. >> have during the war. everybody has problems, even you. but you have nice ocean and don't feel now, but you will feel it in the future. god bless you. god bless you. god bless you. >> you don't tell us what we're going to feel. we're trying to solve a problem. don't tell us

what we're going to feel. >> i'm not telling you. >> because you're no position to dictate that. >> remember that. >> you're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel. we're going to feel very good. we're going to feel very good and very. >> strong influence. >> you're right now not in a very good position. you've allowed yourself to be in a. very bad position. and he happens to be right. >> about from the very beginning of the war. >> you're not in a good position. you don't have the cards right now with us. you start having cards. cards right now you don't. >> you're playing cards, you're playing cards. >> you're gambling with. >> the lives of. >> millions of people. you're gambling with world war three. you're gambling with world war three. and what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country. this country. >> have you said. >> thank you. >> once this entire meeting? >> no. in this entire meeting. >> have you said thank you? >> the problem is, i've empowered you to be a tough guy. and i don't think you'd be a tough guy without the united

states. and your people are very brave. but you're either going to make a deal or we're out. and if we're out, you'll fight it out. i don't think it's going to be pretty, but you'll fight it out. but you don't have the cards. but once we sign that deal, you're in a much better position. but you're not acting at all thankful. and that's not a nice thing. i'll be honest. that's not a nice thing. all right. i think we've seen enough. what do you think this is? this is going to be great television. i will say that. >> fascinating that. >> jd vance, i guess maybe for the first time, decided to just jump in in a meeting and take over a meeting where donald trump is running that meeting. really interesting. so many things deeply disturbing about that meeting. but you don't have to take that from me. just look at marco rubio slouched on the couch when the question is asked of a man who has been enduring

the most horrific of slaughter from russian troops over the past three years, and watching people that he knew and loved killed and watching the country that he loved invaded by russian invaders and killed. asked if he was wearing a suit, why he wasn't wearing a suit. interesting. winston churchill never asked that question in washington. well, the reaction to that stunning meeting, that sickening meeting was swift, the wall street journal editorial board wrote in part this the point of the meeting was supposed to be progress toward an honorable peace for ukraine, and the event was winner was russia's vladimir putin. but as with the war, mr. zelenskyy didn't start this oval office exchange. he was supposed to. was he supposed to tolerate an extended public denigration of the ukrainian people who have been fighting a war for survival

for the three years? the washington post editorial writing, quote, trump, for his part, should recognize the big picture if he wants to avoid world war three, he should heed the lessons of world war two, appeasing dictators doesn't work. putin, a former kgb officer, responds to toughness, not trembling. he respects force, not flattery. and just ask the people of georgia that and the people of ukraine that and the people of crimea tha won putin invasion after another met by non-responses by american presidents until 2022. and we see what happens there in the new york times columnist tom friedman writing, it's hard to express what a break this is in american foreign policy. but i can't think of a single time when an american president declared that the democratically elected leader of a country preserving liberty was, quote, a

dictator who started the war with his neighbor when it was vicious, neighboring dictator who actually started the war. this is a total perversion of u.s. foreign policy practice by every president since world war one. and that was tom friedman. the washington post editorial page, and the wall street journal editorial page. >> and yesterday we did hear from some republicans on this. we heard from republican senator, a member of the. intelligence committee, james lankford. >> as well. >> as house speaker mike johnson. >> who were. >> both clear. about the. threats posed by russian president vladimir putin. >> no, we're not. >> turning our back on. >> ukraine, nor. >> should we. putin is a murderous kgb thug that murders his political enemies and is a. dictator there. and so we've seen that. we've seen his aggression. countries around him have seen that. what i hear president trump saying. >> over and over. >> again is we need to get to a stop and fighting, find some resolution. i understand

zelensky is rightfully concerned that putin has violated every single agreement he's ever signed, and that he can't be trusted. i think they understand each other and that obviously there are differences where zelensky wants more in the way of some kind of security guarantees, and the united states is not willing to be able to put troops on the ground. >> i think vladimir putin is a an old school communist, a former kgb agent. he's not to be trusted and he is dangerous. the way i view this is that china, russia, iran and north korea are engaged in a new axis axis powers, and they are not on america's side. >> everybody, of course, in the administration and the trump administration read straight off notes, took the company line even, bizarrely, tulsi gabbard, a lot of people in the intel community asking why she's deciding to do pr instead of her job. meanwhile, there's this. >> i want. >> to tell. >> you and your people. you're the ally. >> i've.

>> been hoping for all my life. not one american. >> has died defending ukraine. >> you've taken our weapons. >> and. >> you've kicked their. >> and i'm. very proud. >> to. have you as our ally. >> so would. >> i think. >> complete, utter disaster. somebody asked me, am i. >> embarrassed about trump? i have never been more proud of the president. >> i was very. >> proud of. >> jd vance. >> standing up. >> for our country. we want to be helpful. what i saw in the oval office was disrespectful, and i don't know if we can ever do business with. >> zelensky again. >> i don't i think most americans saw a guy that they. would not want to go in business with. the way he handled. >> the. >> meeting, the way he. >> confronted the president. >> was just over the top. he either needs to resign and send somebody over that we can do business with, or he needs. >> to change. >> lindsey graham twisting and contorting once again, all for the benefit of donald trump. i

must tell you, my last meeting with john mccain, there were two things that were on his mind. one was the continuing threat from vladimir putin, which he talked about at great length. he brought up the names of all the political leaders that vladimir putin had killed and all the treaties that he had broken. and the second was his heartbreak with lindsey graham for basically selling out all of his values for a round of golf with donald trump. >> the first. >> sound we heard there from. >> lindsey graham was just. >> two. >> weeks ago. >> at the munich security conference. that's when he praised zelensky sitting alongside him, saying he was. a model ally. and then. >> the last bit was. >> friday after the. >> meeting where graham, like so many members. >> of the trump cabinet. looked like they were handed talking points. they all took to twitter, they all. >> praised trump. they all thanked trump. >> for how tough he was in that meeting. that includes. >> secretary of. >> state rubio. >> do you think marco got out of his like days to actually type in the words that were handed to him, or do you think somebody

did? >> i suspect. >> someone on the. >> secretary's staff. seriously, you really was. it was when the question was asked about the suit, it really was. you can see that was a soul crushing experience for a life long russia hawk. >> the question asked. >> by a. >> reporter from a. >> conservative outlet. >> let into the. >> oval office because of how the white house has changed the. press pool access. >> mind you, that. >> reporter also. >> dating congresswoman marjorie. taylor greene. and we had. >> two distinct. >> reactions in in. >> that oval office. >> we saw. marco rubio looked like he wanted to disappear into the couch itself because to joe's point, he is someone whose whole. career has been someone. >> who has tried to stand. >> up to russia. >> in that moment, he had to go along with the president. >> we also saw the. >> ukrainian ambassador. >> at the top. >> of our show saying. >> her head in. >> her. >> hands. >> because she knew what a. >> disaster that. >> meeting was. >> the meeting. >> after the oval office canceled early, there. was a news. >> conference. >> no minerals. >> deal signed. lunch went uneaten. >> yeah. >> and then, of course, the reaction from europe, the

reaction from keir starmer, the british people, ian lined up in the streets cheering. i suppose americans used to cheering for zelensky, cheering for freedom. keir starmer saying we're with you. king charles the third you notice, wasn't shocked at all that he dressed like a wartime leader as churchill dressed like a wartime leader. and then, of course, the people of europe, the leaders of europe, ursula von der leyen, having the strongest words of support, talk about that. and what does it mean long term for the united states, long term for europe, long term for ukraine? >> look, trump. >> sees ukraine not as an ally, not as. >> a. >> courageous leader. >> he sees zelensky. >> as a supplicant. >> he sees. >> him as weak. >> and america. >> gets to make the rules. no.

>> no different. >> in that regard. >> than the way. >> he'd see the panamanian leader. >> or the danish leader, or the mexican. >> leader or the canadian leader. >> these are people that have to come to him and who have to jump. >> when he says jump. >> and the fact that the ukrainians have. >> fought for three years. >> is irrelevant. >> from trump's perspective. >> he wants. >> to end. >> the war. >> that is. >> the priority. it's the only priority. >> and why is he calling zelensky? why is he calling the victim the tyrant and the dictator and calling the invader, refusing to call the invader the invader? >> he wants to. >> do a deal with putin. he's made that very clear. what's interesting. >> here. >> it's not just the. decisive break with ukraine. it is the fact that the americans, the president. >> of the united. >> states and his administration and the russian president actually have strategic alignment. >> on europe. >> they both. >> want a. >> weak european. >> union. >> a fragmented european union. >> they don't. >> see them as principal. >> allies of. >> the united states. >> they see them as a challenge.

>> this started with. >> munich a couple of. >> weeks ago. when the vice president. >> j.d. vance. >> running the delegation, went and he said. >> you are. >> the problem. >> you in. >> this. >> room, not. >> russia, not. >> china. >> not iran, you in. this room. >> by being opposed to democracy, opposed to free speech, opposed to. >> a party. that you consider to be a neo. >> nazi party. >> that was the beginning. >> and the conclusion. >> was what we. >> saw transpire in the oval office. on friday, when. >> the same. >> vice president and president. >> trump said. >> we are. >> not going. >> to support you. >> we're in between. >> we're going to cut a. >> deal with russia. >> that's going to be the end of the war. >> so if you're. >> europe. >> you better stand up. >> you've had years. >> to stand up. you haven't been. >> yeah, you. >> don't stand up now. >> you are. in very serious trouble. >> and of course, making europe paying more money to ukraine in the defense of ukraine in the united states. that's one of the lies that was told repeatedly last week. the other lie that the united states is giving $350 billion to ukraine. that's a lie we have given. perhaps we've

appropriated half of that. we've probably given in the end, about a third of that, a lot of that money going to american factories, to american workers, to american jobs, to american munitions. so, yeah, i mean, the fact that, by the way, this is a continuation of donald trump attacking constantly democratically elected leaders in europe in the first term and then saying extraordinarily nice things about dictators like vladimir putin, autocrats like orban and hungary. and that continues today. >> david ignatius, your response to this meeting, european. reaction and whether or not this. >> was just a complete. >> and. >> total gift to putin. >> so. >> mika. >> lindsey graham had. >> it right. >> when. >> he said. >> it was. >> a complete and utter disaster. it was kind of. >> a piece of television. >> that. >> i don't think any of us have ever watched or imagined. >> we would. >> from the oval office. >> the question for me now is

whether it's possible to pick up the. >> pieces, and if. >> so, how? >> it's really striking to look at the reactions. three days. >> later, the kremlin. >> is delighted. >> the kremlin spokesman. >> dimitri dmitry peskov. >> said that u.s. >> policy is now. >> largely aligned. >> with that of russia. >> can you. imagine that. >> that that's. >> that's the description from the kremlin of where things stand. >> meanwhile. >> keir starmer, the. >> head of what's traditionally. our closest ally. >> britain. >> is trying. >> desperately. >> i think, to. >> find a way to mediate. between putin. >> not putin. >> but zelensky and trump, and. >> see if there's a way back towards having the kind of peace deal that. >> they envisioned. >> i'm told. >> david. >> what's your reaction? i'm curious. what's your reaction to how much of a break this has been for u.s. policy going back over the past 80 years? >> so i. >> think in terms of, of.

>> of rhetoric, it's. >> fundamental break. is it going to last? >> my own. >> guess is. that over the next. >> few weeks. >> we'll we'll see. >> an. >> attempt to resolve these differences. >> ukrainian sources have. >> told me. that zelensky is eager to get back into. >> a dialog. >> with the us. he came to the white house ready. >> to sign. >> a deal to turn over much of the proceeds of. >> ukraine's mineral. >> wealth to the united states as part of an effort to get the us involved. so i would think that although this appears to. be a. total break today, it's likely. >> that a month from now it will it will appear less than that. >> i think. >> the more basic problem is what ian was saying. the us is now in a very different. >> position vis a vis. >> russia and europe than. >> in my lifetime. >> and that's.

>> that's going to be harder. >> to fix. trump. >> for. some reason, sees. >> his mission. >> as as reaching out to vladimir putin and bringing him into a peace. >> deal. >> make peace. >> he said. >> he was going to do it. >> in 24. >> hours, but. >> that's that's his priority. >> to accomplish that, he's done an extraordinary. >> range of things, insulting. our ally ukraine in. >> the. oval office is one, but one that's even more striking in some ways is the report that our secretary of defense. has told the cyber command. >> to stop. >> aggressive cyber operations against. >> russia. >> at least for the period. >> of these negotiations. >> again, a way to woo putin into discussions. so, you know, these are. >> you know. >> hard to imagine that that we would. be telling cyber command. >> to, to at a time when russia still conducts. >> intense offensive operations. >> against the us. >> to stand. >> down on some. >> of these. >> ronald reagan would say ronald reagan would be talking about peace through strength.

say, you never get to peace with russians through being weak. that's exactly what's happening right now, though, a show of weakness. and mika, it's a it's a zero sum game. it seems with the trump administration where you're saying he's basically saying to make peace with russia, i have to go to diplomatic war with europe. and that's just not the case. you can do two things at the same time. but this is this is the way he's out. you can go back to 1987 where he's attacking nato. he's been he's been attacking nato, that we're spending too much on nato for 40, for 50 years. and it continues in a way, again, that again, acting this way gets vladimir putin into georgia and the united states. you know, if you say you look into the eyes of vladimir putin, you see his soul, then he will invade georgia and the

united states will sit there and do nothing. if you say, as barack obama did in 2012, after the election to medvedev, after the election, we can do more. and then you talk about a reset. you're going to do a reset with vladimir putin. then he invades ukraine. you do nothing. he invades crimea, you do nothing. he shoots down commercial aircraft. peace through weakness. the secretary of defense saying, let's take it easier on putin. donald trump saying, let's take it easy on putin. listen, you can pay me now or you can pay me later. is the fram oil filter commercials went back in the 1970s. this weakness, this weakness towards russia and specifically toward putin in 0408, 2014, every time, mika, weakness leads to more

war, more invasions, more suffering. it's that simple. >> as david. >> mentioned, the kremlin spokesman, dmitry peskov. told a russian state media reporter that the trump administration's rapid changes to u.s. foreign policy, quote, largely coincides with our vision. let's bring in nbc. >> news chief. >> international correspondent keir simmons. >> live from moscow. >> with reaction from russia. keir, what are you hearing? >> well, mika. >> one interesting aspect of all of. this is that we haven't heard. >> from president. >> putin since friday. >> now. that is fascinating. >> because very likely he is watching and waiting. i'm told. by a senior diplomat with knowledge of the talks that there are plans right now. for more bilateral talks between the u.s. and russia. there's not a. date in the diary, clearly, that could be put in the diary. >> very, very quickly.

>> i suspect president putin. is thinking that there is enormous opportunity here and also risk. he will know that we are on the precipice of a potential major crisis in europe and in nato, and at the same time, the russians have been watching events in europe, in the u.k. yesterday and over the weekend and commenting the russian media and the kremlin on that. so, for example, the kremlin posting a picture of those european leaders and saying, here are the leaders who are organizing opposition to trump and putin. so clearly trying to message to washington that there should be an alliance between the kremlin and the trump administration and that europe is the problem, but also at the same time, the kremlin warning europe, threatening europe, really against using those seized russian assets to help ukraine,

saying there will be serious consequences. and i think that illuminates that there will be a concern in the kremlin that a newly united europe, more determined to send troops, for example, to ukraine, actually does present some, some risks for the kremlin. you know, president trump described what happened on friday as great television. the russian television agrees. those scenes have been playing out on russian tv all weekend. the interviews that you were playing at the top of the show from u.s. tv, those are being played here on russian tv consistently, and where keir starmer, for example, talks yesterday about a coalition of the willing in europe, it would have been noted in russia that, of course, that suggests that there are those in europe who are unwilling. so there are comments here in russia, but not by not by the president himself, by those around him and by the media around him. and i think

another piece of that to just note from last week is, if you think about it from the russian perspective, what they watched happen, they watched the vote in the un, where the us refused to condemn russia. then just before that meeting on friday, they watched as the trump administration extended sanctions against russia. and then that event in the oval office and all of the implications of that. so as much as this has been head spinning for all governments around the world, i think it is to for the kremlin. and another interesting aspect of all this, there are signs from president putin amid all of that, those events last week that he is urging his government, his intelligence operation, to double down on on particularly targeting europe.

so where the secretary, defense pete hegseth, ordered the pentagon to stop offensive cyber operations against russia on on thursday last week, president putin held a meeting with the fsb. the which was once, of course, the kgb, and he urged them to thwart any attempt to disrupt what he describes as the newly resumed dialog between russia and the us, urging them to significantly strengthen counterintelligence measures. so there are there are melting multi layers here. there are many, many things happening at once. another aspect of this, just to note, if the us this week and there are signs that this could happen, pulls support for ukraine that would significantly strengthen russia's hand. and i suppose you could say, ironically, i think makes it less likely that the kremlin will look to a ceasefire or even a peace deal, because it

will think that that will give it opportunities on the battlefield. >> nbc's keir. >> simmons watching. >> reaction live from moscow. thank you so much for your reporting this morning, jonathan. >> so, alan. >> we. >> haven't heard yet from president putin publicly, but we did hear from dmitri medvedev, who said, quote, the insolent pig, referring. to zelensky. the insolent pig finally got a proper slap. >> down in the oval office. so we're. seeing jubilation there. >> from the kremlin as. to what transpired. and as keir pointed out. >> i've heard. >> this senior trump officials say this over the weekend. they are considering just immediately halting aid to ukraine. they haven't. >> done it yet, but. >> that is. >> a topic. >> of conversation there. so let's. >> get your. >> take as to. what you. witnessed on friday. a fundamental shift. frankly, i. >> heard from. >> several diplomats and. >> former u.s. >> and current u.s. intelligence. >> military officials. >> saying it seems like. >> this white house. >> siding with moscow. >> yeah, i. >> think writ large. >> the most. >> interesting.

>> reveal of. >> this meeting was. >> basically that the trump administration doesn't really have. >> much of a plan. i think that. >> you. >> know, trump has. >> for peace in ukraine. >> trump had, of course, campaigned on. >> a. >> quick. solution to the. >> problem by. >> pressuring both. >> sides, both russia and ukraine. >> and what we. >> are seeing. >> is that. he is pressuring one side. more than the other. i mean, it's. it's probably a it's a natural reaction. i mean, of the two of the two. >> sides that. >> he was going to pressure, you know, russia and. >> ukraine. >> ukraine is the easier one. and i think all the. >> fireworks over this might. >> might simply. >> disguise that. that is. what what's happening. there are a lot of conversations. it's true that putin isn't making any public. >> comments right. >> now, but one thing we did see from the meeting. was that trump. trump said that he is

talking to putin. he's talking to him quite a lot. we're not. >> getting any reading readouts. >> about it. >> we really. >> don't have any. insight into. >> what's. >> going on, but it doesn't look. >> like. >> there. are any. >> concessions or or there might be concessions, but. >> there. >> don't seem to be any pressures or pressure on russia. >> so for now. >> yeah. >> it's looks pretty one sided. >> and that is the direction of. >> things david ignatius suggested earlier. and i'm curious your take on this, that a month from now we may be looking back on this as just one step in the process. do you do you sense that that donald trump is just winging it right now, that this is like, you know, the opening pages of the art of the deal, walk into your office and just see what happens. and keep keep moving until you get a deal. >> i think that. >> yes. >> i think there. >> will be attempts. >> i don't think that, you. >> know, this is not the first. >> time that zelensky. >> has.

>> you know, annoyed some american. >> government officials. >> asking for more aid. >> i mean. he that's what he does. he they, they need aid in order to fight this war. >> i think. >> that that will continue. >> but but. >> i don't think. that i don't think that he'll. >> be. >> nearly as. >> successful as last time. but yeah, i don't think. >> he really has. >> much choice except to. come back. >> i don't think that, as i said before, i don't i don't. think that. >> trump is going to find this. >> easy because. >> i think he's gone. >> into. >> all this thinking that this is a lot. >> easier than it really is. >> i think. >> he's underestimated. >> the difficulty of making a deal with the russians. and what's. >> more, this is not like a real estate deal. >> this is not a. >> situation where. >> both sides feel some loss because. >> they have to pay something a little bit more than. >> they expected. >> this is a. >> this is where.

>> both sides. >> feel. >> very deeply. >> and aggrieved at many dead and war crimes. and. >> you. >> know, whatever atrocities. >> that, you know, we all have. >> in our heads. >> and it's. >> it's going to. >> be it's going to be very difficult. and i think that the. >> his short term solution. >> right now is. >> to simply pressure the weaker side. all right. wall street journal reporter. >> alan colson, thank you so much. his latest piece for the journal is available. online now. so he suggested that perhaps donald trump is underestimated how difficult it is to make peace with the russians and maybe underestimated vladimir putin himself. if that's the case, there's a long history of american leaders from fdr through jfk and george w bush, through barack obama and donald trump, who have underestimated russian leaders specifically here, vladimir putin. what is the impact of that? and i'm

curious, what's the impact of europe coming together this weekend? >> well, i think the most interesting thing. >> that's happened since the. >> meeting in the white house. >> is starmer and trump. >> talking about. >> the europeans now having ownership. of what a cease. >> fire deal. >> is going to look like. starmer has told. >> trump. >> i'm going to. >> present that. >> to you. >> after having discussed. >> with. >> the ukrainians and the europeans, trump is now. expecting that. >> there's a. >> lot of talk about. >> macron. >> starmer and zelensky coming back. >> to the. >> white house. in the. >> coming week. >> or two. >> that is. >> a big deal. >> zelensky clearly shouldn't. >> be. >> seeing. >> trump and the white. >> house by. >> himself, but. >> with the europeans is. >> a. >> different story. and the fact is that for all. >> of our. >> discussions of how trump wants to. >> throw the europeans. >> out and. work with the russians. >> trump has. >> also been. >> saying. >> i want the europeans spending a lot more on. >> defense. >> spending a lot more on nato. >> putin doesn't. >> want to hear that putin is not. interested in that. so if

it turns out that the europeans come. >> out of this. >> actually taking. more of a. >> i was going. >> to say this is actually what's happened. and so often in politics, you know, one of my favorite sayings is senator paul simon of illinois said when he left after serving in politics for years, he said, i think i learned in politics, sometimes when you win, you lose. sometimes when you lose, you win the law of unintended consequences. think about this for donald trump, who seems to have a deep distaste for european democracy, and vladimir putin, who has a deep distaste for western european democracy. think about what this has done. this is actually strengthened europe. this is unified europe. you and i have both. i know you visit europe all the time. i've been to london a good bit over the past several years, and i've noticed post-brexit brexit, a lack of confidence, sort of a loss of animal spirits, sort of

this aimlessness that all changed this weekend. i'm not saying that everything is going to magically, but they have given europe a purpose to unite. they have given europe a purpose to move forward. and again, i don't think this is what donald trump or vladimir putin wants. >> i think. that trump. >> would be. >> very happy. >> to pivot and say, look, i'm. >> the only president that could get. >> the europeans to take. >> the lead and pay their. >> fair share. >> if they're. >> capable of doing it. >> right now. >> trump wouldn't take that bet. putin wouldn't. >> take that bet. >> i'm not even. >> sure i would take. >> that bet. but they've. >> got a. >> better shot after the last weekend than they did. before zelenskyy. >> blew up with trump. >> watch what. >> the. >> germans are doing. >> right now. the next couple. >> of days. watch very carefully. >> they are talking. >> about before. >> the new chancellor takes office. >> they're talking about a k71 trillion dollar deal, 1. >> trillion. >> for defense. >> and for infrastructure. >> no way that conversation.

>> happens if we. >> don't have. >> the. >> europeans under the gun. >> is it. >> enough to. >> get the europeans together. >> to take. >> the. >> lead to backstop the ukrainians? as of. >> today. >> i'd still say no. >> i'd still bet against it. but i wouldn't. >> bet everything against it. >> give these. >> guys at least a. >> shot, david. >> so i. want to ask a question of. gary kasparov. >> gary. >> give us a sense of how. >> russians are reacting. >> to these. >> amazing events in washington. >> and second. >> i wonder if you think that. >> putin. >> feeling that. >> he. >> has what almost seems. american support. >> will try. >> to move further. against europe. >> europeans are afraid. >> of an aggressive russia. are they right to be afraid that their next. >> well. >> i'm afraid i cannot help you to disclose the opinion of russians, because russia is the fastest dictatorship and all the polls should be taken with a great caution, because i don't think people are happy or

willing to give honest answers to the questions about the war or putin's putin's regime. but from all indicators that can be analyzed, is we could see that russia is a giant military camp. the country is just living in, in a state of hysteria. the brainwashing propaganda starts from the kindergartens. so no matter what what putin says or what peskov says, russia shows no intentions to end the war. these the mobilization there is, there's more power goes to kgb. and when you look at again, putin's statements about empowering russian counterintelligence, he calls counterintelligence. and also the propaganda built, you know, the image of vladimir putin fighting for holy russia against western democracies. yes. now, america could be a temporary

ally, but but he has not abolished his goal of this war. and the goal was, is and will be to destroy ukrainian statehood. they said nothing about about walking away from that ukrainian nation doesn't exist. that's what every russian student or even just, you know, kid in, in, in kindergarten now knows. so i don't see how putin can end the war. you know, this magic wand let's, you know, go one 180 so there could be a temporary end of hostilities, but there will be no peace in ukraine, lasting peace, no matter what trump says, no matter what other politicians say. and russia will continue its its war even in hybrid forms. and putin believes now that trump is offering him a great opportunity to buy time because russia's economy is not in great shape, and russia's advance in ukraine has been slowing down. and i think this is some kind of, you know,

there's some signs of growing uneasiness among among russian people. but again, those are pieces of data that that should be very carefully analyzed, because again, this is just relying on what, what the polls present to you. it's not it's not real. and also i would add that in my view that is watching the what's happened at this meeting in the white house and the reaction of many republicans, the senators, the members of the house and other officials. i think there is a deep split within the administration. and clearly jd vance, who intervened and caused all this. conflict in the in the oval office. so he represents, you may call it, a war party. and he explicitly said it in europe, they view europe as a problem and they want european union to be, if not dissolved, but but to be much weaker. but i believe that behind the scenes we are we are feeling the pressure from others that are

not, that are not willing to actually to, to, to, to cut tie with data. so they don't criticize trump. but you hear even ted cruz, even ted cruz, his statement was, oh, russia is an enemy. so i think this is this administration is just, you know, in a very odd situation where you have two, two competing camps. and i think trump i think instinctively trump is close to jd vance, but he also looks at the ratings. and if the ratings will show that his views on russia are not popular, so he may actually shift back and find a way to bring zelenskyy and europeans under his wing. and because he wants to be a winner, and it doesn't seem that he's his position now is offering him an extra rating points. >> chairman of the. >> renew democracy initiative, garry kasparov, thank you so much is right up. >> for the atlantic. >> available online now. the washington post david ignatius, thank you. >> as well. >> his latest. >> piece is. >> online now. >> for the washington post. >> and president. >> and founder of eurasia.

>> group and g. >> zero media, ian bremmer. thank you as well. coming up, new reporting on president trump's so-called maga media. army and how it's more influential. >> than many realize. >> plus. >> an update on the. health of. >> pope francis. >> as he remains. hospitalized this morning. >> also ahead, all the highlights. >> from the academy. >> awards as a small. >> budget film. >> came away with. many of the night's top prizes. you're watching morning joe. watching morning joe. >> we're back in 90s. there are days i feel stuck in my head. even on an antidepressant, lingering depression symptoms can make it hard to break through. i wanted more from my antidepressant. i asked about vraylar. adding vraylar to an antidepressant significantly reduces overall depression symptoms better than an antidepressant alone. vraylar isn't approved for elderly patients

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the savings they love. (dog howls) for automatic delivery and 5% savings. for life with pets, there's chewy. night. >> yeah. that's great. >> yeah. >> that's great news. >> two wins already. i guess. >> americans are excited to see somebody finally stand up to a. powerful russian. >> that was. >> oscars host. >> conan o'brien during. >> last night's 97th. >> academy awards, the only time he weighed in on politics during the show, linking the film nora to what happened in the oval office on friday. with us to talk about a nora's big night is founding. >> partner of. >> poc and. >> former editor. >> of the. >> hollywood reporter, matthew belloni. he attended. >> the oscars last night at. >> the dolby theater in. los angeles. >> matthew, i guess we should first ask, have you gotten any

sleep? it's very. >> little. >> but i. >> did leave the party. >> a lot earlier. >> than most people. they're still going on. >> yeah. >> i'm sure. >> they are. talk about a night of surprises. >> absolutely. >> i mean, going into this oscars, it was really an open race. we were talking about any of 4 or 5 movies getting big oscars. >> and. >> then it ended up a sweep. we had a nora with five wins and mikey madison. beating demi moore in the best actress race. that was a big surprise. i think nora is the. >> $6 million. >> little movie that most people did not think. >> could go all the. >> way to best. >> picture. >> and it did. >> and way more. >> to be here. >> so tell. >> us why, why, why did this? why did this capture the hearts of the academy the way it did? >> you know, it's interesting. it is a movie with a lot of heart. it's a movie that makes you feel good at the end, and it's got emotion. academy

members typically vote with emotion. what makes them feel something. and this is a movie that from start to finish, it's got laughs, it's got drama. it's kind of a road movie. it's got a little bit of politics with the russia stuff. it's got a fantasy element. it's sort of a modern, very r-rated pretty woman. if you if you say and it's got all of. >> that. >> in one. >> package. >> and it's the arrival. of this independent filmmaker, sean baker, who's been around a long time but has never had this kind of mainstream or quasi mainstream success. i think. all of that put together, the academy found it irresistible. >> so, matthew, let's turn to the best actor win for adrien brody. it was sort of seen as a more or less. >> a. >> two person race. >> brody or. >> timothee chalamet. >> of course, was. >> played. >> bob dylan. is this. >> both deserving? >> is this. >> a sense. >> of the academy simply saying, hey, you've got to. >> earn it. you're a little too young to win? >> i think. so over the history of the academy, they've shown over and over again they're

willing to give the top acting award to a younger actress. and we saw that tonight with mikey madison in nora. but they're less willing to do that for a younger actor. and i think timothee chalamet at 29 years old, it was just the sense that it was a little too early for him also. adrien brody an unbelievable performance in that film. it really is a centerpiece performance. it's kind of ironic is that he was the youngest best actor winner when he won the first time, and. >> that. >> was, you know, more than 20 years ago. and now at 51, he's got his second. oscar in two nominations. the first time that's happened where he's won. an actor has won two oscars after having been nominated only twice. >> happy to see kieran culkin win for best supporting actor for real pain. so matthew, give us your sense. just big picture sense of the oscars themselves. how do you feel like. conan o'brien did. >> as host and what. >> this moment means for the movie business? >> well, we'll see what the ratings are because we don't know yet. and there were some glitches with the hulu stream

the oscars stream for the first time on hulu last night. usually they're just on abc. i think conan did a great job in the room. lots of laughs. he really got people going at the very beginning. some funny bits, very apolitical. you guys played that one clip of the russia joke, but the words donald trump were not said by the host last night, and he really avoided politics, except for that one joke. and i think that's part of the reason why the academy hired him, is they wanted an apolitical show. they are sick of becoming a punching bag on right wing media shows. and this was the show that he delivered. it was somewhat apolitical and very funny. >> matthew belloni, thank you so much for that recap. >> good to have. >> you on. >> and good to have you on and good night. >> oh yeah. go to bed. coming up, msnbc contributor pablo torre is here to talk about this morning's sports headlines and a conspiracy theory about one of the greatest. >> games in. nba history.

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>> instantly when. >> you transfer to dave. >> checking. >> download the dave app today. >> and somebody shot their wrigley field in chicago sun. not quite up yet. >> there in the windy city, but it is. >> time to talk. >> -87 degrees there. >> right now. >> yeah. it's not. >> thankfully today. >> not opening. >> day just yet, but it's around the corner. so let's talk a little. >> baseball and major. >> league baseball commissioner rob manfred. >> is reportedly. >> considering a request. filed

by. >> the. >> family of. >> pete rose to remove the all. >> time hit leader from baseball's ineligible list. >> rose, who died. >> last year. >> at the age of. >> 83. >> received a lifetime ban from. >> the sport. >> back in 1989. >> for gambling. >> ending his budding career as a manager and blocking his path to the hall of fame. rose did admit in 2004 that he bet on baseball games, but never against his own teams. reports that manfred is reviewing the petition to reinstate rose. follow. >> a promise from president trump to sign a complete pardon of baseball's hit king in the coming weeks. let's now bring in the host of pablo torre finds out on meadowlark media, our friend, msnbc contributor pablo torre. i'll just note that trump's declaration about pete rose came on truth. >> social. >> literally just hours after the oval office meeting with zelensky, prompting more. than one person. >> to. >> say to. >> me, why. >> can't he just. >> stick to stuff like. >> that and. >> not foreign affairs. but talk to us about pete. >> rose, who. >> of course, the all. >> time hit list. >> hit. leader but has never had

his due in cooperstown because of this ban. >> yeah, look, pete rose has always. >> been an unreliable narrator. >> he's always been a character who was himself trafficking in exaggeration and self-glorification. what is not in dispute, though, is how good a player he is. he was certainly. >> and then you add. >> to just that stew of stuff. >> the idea. >> that, okay, wait, baseball's attitudes on gambling, sports, attitudes on gambling have. >> changed, i was going to say have changed. the thing about rose is, isn't it, that just the plain fact that if he had been a little less rough around the edges, he would have already been back in baseball? it seems like every time, like even when the phillies wanted to bring him back, another controversy would explode. he would say the wrong thing. i mean, i've always thought, yeah, give him a ban for five years, a lifetime ban for a guy who was one of the greatest hitters of all time, and certainly a guy who was one of the hardest ballplayers of all time. how do you keep him out of the hall of fame?

>> yeah, the hardest playing athlete, you might say, right. sliding, injuring people at all star games. the thing about the hall. >> of fame, though, is. >> always whether we consider it beatification or an exhibit in a museum. and pete rose to me is the argument for why the hall of fame, if you're going to do. the morality policing thing, and certainly at the edges, i get it. but when it comes to one of the greatest of all time, the moralizing, especially. >> in the. >> era of legalized gambling, i'm more in favor of, let's just tell the story of him in cooperstown, as opposed to sanitizing the story. >> i mean, seriously, do we want to really go back and see what babe ruth did? dangerous game and see what i mean? that is a dangerous game. that's like when people are talking about what artists have done in the 20th century. i do want to go back and really stop listening to mozart or beethoven or brahms. >> looking at his art. >> picasso. i mean, go down the list here. it's baseball. yeah, it's a hall of fame. it's the

greatest players of all time. they should have done this a long time ago. >> but my take. >> has always been rose bonds. >> clemens. they're all should be in. just put on the plaque. >> what they were accused of. >> pablo, let's make the turn now. the yesterday. marked the. 63rd anniversary of hall of famer wilt chamberlain's legendary. >> 100 point game. >> it's a. >> topic you cover. >> in. your latest podcast. >> and you. >> looked at that. he's holding the sign, so. >> therefore it must. >> have happened. wait. >> wait a minute though. >> well, we've known. >> to. exaggerate some. >> numbers in his life. let's talk about let's talk. >> about this one too. >> yeah. so there are two. >> big numbers. >> in wilt's life that we memorialize 20,000 for the number of paramours partners. he had and. >> then 100. >> the of course, greatest, most dominant, most unstoppable individual performance arguably in sports history. >> and you say neither happened. >> i'm saying the former the 20,000 did. >> not happen. >> as will put. >> it one time. >> to a confidant to one. >> of the 20,000. >> what's another zero between friends, basically. but the 100? the 100 has been a it's been

shrouded in conspiracy. so this is all across the internet toda. and the reasons are understandable given that it's 2025 and there is no video footage. the radio broadcast had. mysteriously disappeared, only for snippets to reemerge later. of course, many of the participants, almost all of them had have died by now. and the hall of fame itself. speaking of the through line in today's segment, beyond me doing a little bit of history class, is that the hall of fame has never had a wilt exhibit because. >> it's so hard. >> to gather this evidence. and so we did. we gathered. >> the radio. >> broadcast, the full fourth quarter. we found a. primary source, wilt teammate tom meschery, who is alive and himself is an incredible story. and he and also the archive of tapes we found in which we. have at least 56 people who are in. >> the. >> building on tape talking to the author, gary pomerantz at stanford university, attesting like they feel like they are taking crazy pills because they saw it happen. and although

there was not the technology at the time it happened, 100 points happened in hershey, pennsylvania. >> so you're. saying pennsylvania? actually, he did score the 100 points. >> yes he did. and that said, of course you have to make the argument because kids today there's pictures or it didn't happen footage or it didn't happen. and that one piece of paper with 100 written on it. yeah, right. that was that was the closest thing they had. and we tell the story of. >> that as well. >> how that came to be, which is to say, the statistician wrote that for wilt to hold up as a testament to a guy who was. >> larger than. >> life, a self-mythologizing character not unlike pete rose, but himself actually. did something that the history books have yet to fully clarify. and hopefully we do a little bit towards that end. >> claims one out of two. host. okay. fans out on meadowlark media msnbc contributor pablo torre, thank you so much. and still ahead on morning joe, we turn back to the contentious oval office meeting between president trump and ukrainian

president volodymyr zelenskyy. democratic senator. >> chris murphy. >> of connecticut. >> who sits. >> on the foreign. relations committee, will join. >> us with his. >> reaction to that. >> plus, the new yorker's david. >> remnick is drawing. a stark comparison between. >> president trump. and f.d.r, laying out what he says. >> is trump's disgrace. we're back. >> in two minutes. >> that is a chopper for. >> and that's. >> a. >> holiday time. >> that is when it's time to start your business, it's time for shopify. design with easy to customize themes. sell everywhere people shop. and never miss a sale with the world's best converting checkout. see why millions of businesses sell with shopify. start your free trial today. hunu can save up to 40%. look how easy that the way i approach work post fatherhood, has really trying to understand the generation

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>> no. english. >> de nada. before we get started, i'd like to thank president. zelensky for dressing like casual star trek. >> we love star trek because there's. >> no die. the white guy was the leader, and he bossed around. spock, who. >> i believe. >> was guatemalan. we love that president zelensky. >> you want to say a. >> few. >> words. >> maybe tell. >> mr. putin how much you love him and that. >> you're sorry you invaded russia. maybe offer him one night with your wife. >> mr. president, with all. >> due. >> respect, excuse me. i'm sorry. what? i'm sorry. i have. >> to jump in here because that's how we planned this. what happened to. thank you. okay. remember? thank you. you haven't said thank you to. >> us once in. >> the past 15 seconds. i've been. yelling at you. >> oh, i've said thank you. >> you didn't say. >> it now. >> but you didn't. >> say it now. when you walked.

>> in here, you didn't say. thank you. you didn't say anything about us. >> being. >> handsome or my handsome little boys. you didn't ask. >> us that once. if i could just say you have been talking this entire time. i'm sorry. >> does the sign. >> outside say. ukraine house? no, it says. >> america house. >> oh. oh, man. look at rubio over there, fully disassociating. it looks like homer simpson disappearing into that hedge. to quote the late, good tom petty's free falling. i'm sorry if i, you know, you say you want to end this war. >> but frankly. >> you don't have the cards. >> okay, i have the cards. all right, i have. >> skip, i have draw four. i have reverse, i have get out of. >> jail free. >> the supreme court gave me that one. i have pikachu and charmander and charizard. all i'm. >> missing is a. >> charmeleon. but without us,

you don't have any of the guards. okay. >> you got. >> no cards. you're playing poker. >> and putin's. >> playing magic the gathering. and the russians. >> have been treated very. >> badly with respect to the war. and also, frankly. honora. right. >> honora was. >> misled, and she fell in love. and now she might even lose to brutalist. it's disgusting. you're not. >> even. >> wearing a suit. >> it's disrespectful. >> who shows up. to the white. >> house. >> in a. t shirt and jeans. >> like a garbage person? and. >> i really enjoy. >> everything that doing. >> with dogelon. >> well. >> they're saying i'm firing. >> people with. >> no cause. >> but i do. have cause. >> it's cause i feel like. >> you know. come on glitch. >> saturday night live's. >> cold open treatment. friday's oval office meeting between donald trump and volodymyr

zelensky. jonathan lemire. >> is still with us. and joining the. >> conversation. >> we. >> have msnbc. political analyst. >> he is. publisher of the newsletter the ink, available. >> on substack. >> editor of the new. >> yorker. david remnick is. back with. >> us and staff writer. >> at. >> the atlantic, frank ford. good to have you all. this hour. >> as. >> we start the second hour of morning joe. >> european leaders. >> are. >> rallying around ukrainian president volodymyr. >> zelensky. >> who says he is ready to sign that rare minerals deal with. >> the us, just days after a. >> contentious oval. >> office meeting with president trump. nbc news white house correspondent vaughn hillyard has the latest. >> ukrainian president. volodymyr zelensky. saying he would be open to restarting dialog with president trump and is ready to sign a critical minerals deal with the us. this after zelensky turned his focus toward more than a dozen european leaders. >> this is. >> a. >> once in. >> a generation moment for the security of europe. >> french president emmanuel.

>> macron and british prime minister keir starmer. announcing they will now work. >> on a draft. >> ukraine russia peace proposal. >> we have agreed that the uk, france and others will work with ukraine on a plan to stop the fighting. then we will discuss that plan with the united states. >> the meeting. >> comes after friday's contentious oval office exchange. >> you don't have the cards right now with us. you start. >> having cards, right? >> secretary of state. >> marco rubio saying the. >> u.s. hasn't. communicated with ukraine since friday. and two white house officials. >> tell nbc news. >> trump is considering withholding any future military and financial aid. that's what. >> zelensky did, unfortunately. >> is he found every. >> opportunity to try to ukraine on every issue. the contrast in europe's approach stark starmer saying he told trump by phone this weekend about europe's plans to now take the lead in initiating a deal. >> president trump. >> a spokesperson for the kremlin. in remarks.

>> hailing trump's. >> skepticism of the. current world order, saying, quote, the. >> new. >> administration is rapidly changing all foreign policy configurations. >> this largely. >> coincides with our vision. democratic senator chris murphy blasting the white house's handling of negotiations. >> now the white. >> house has. >> become an. >> arm of. >> the kremlin. >> meanwhile. >> vice president. >> vance's ski trip to vermont, drawing. hundreds of demonstrators, some holding ukrainian. >> flags in support of the country. americans now also fractured over the path forward, as some congressional republicans increasingly question zelensky. >> either he needs to come to his senses and come back to the table in gratitude, or someone else needs to lead the country to do that. >> well, you know, it's very interesting. also, before that, he called vladimir putin a dictator, said he could understand why zelensky didn't trust him. he said he could understand why there was a need for a security deal. same thing with james lankford in the

senate. i think in an earlier guest had said that ted cruz even came out and called putin what he was a dictator. so you you have republicans, some republicans still speaking out, speaking strongly. but we certainly didn't see that from the administration. and marco rubio, could. god. so this is what you say, david remnick, you said, is this really what trump supporters voted for? how does the decimation of american values, institutions and commitments bring down the price of eggs to minimize the unending fuselage of trump's first weeks in office? to choose to turn away is to indulge in self soothing. >> yeah, it's beautifully said. >> yeah, it really is. >> if you say so yourself. you know, i would say this, that in

the course of an afternoon we had a televised version of us losing from the oval office, our strategic bearings and our moral bearings. and if this is carried out to its logical conclusion, which dmitry peskov, putin's longtime spokesman, seems to think it is that we will adopt, russia's view of the case that we will become, rather than the supporters of liberal democracy and ukraine, the enemies of those things. and something terrible has happened in this country. and saturday night live is hilarious. and they get to the point satirically. but we have to take this really seriously. yeah. and i don't see that the democratic party has roused itself in any concerted way. i don't, you know, it's great to see 150 people out demonstrating in vermont against the vice president, but this is of such consequence. this is of

such consequence for our future, the future of europe, the future of, you know, the meaning of this country, that a lot can be lost if what happened last week is carried. >> jen psaki understood that, as he said to. >> president trump, you know, you have an. >> ocean between you. >> but you you will. >> feel it, you will feel it. >> and putin's. dream has been to reconstitute the soviet union after ukraine, moldova surrounded, and after that they have belarus. so who else is surrounded? >> well, i wouldn't want to be lithuanian today or a pole. >> i was going to say the baltic states. i mean, you you've got estonia, latvia, lithuania, and suddenly they're all surrounded. and putin's dream is achieved if america allows him to. >> do it. american foreign policy has had a lot to answer for in the last eight years. that's that's for certain. but one great thing that has that

has happened is that that the nato alliance and the eu and all these alliances that we either respect or are part of have kept things at bay and has prevented a conflagration the likes of which we have never seen. we don't want that. we all want peace. but on peace, on what terms? and you know, you have a president for the first time, making it pretty clear that he probably won't support article five of nato either. and he gives it he just gives these things away. and it's all signaling to his base about america first. and charles lindbergh would be delighted with this foreign policy. >> joining us. >> now. >> democratic member. >> of the senate foreign relations committee. >> senator chris. >> murphy of connecticut. >> senator, your. >> thoughts on. all of this. >> this morning? and how do you. >> convince your. >> republican counterparts? >> if there is a line. >> to hold. >> it would be. theirs to. >> hold, i think to hold on to

our alliances and push back against this. >> yeah. i mean. >> this is a disaster for. >> us national security. you are right that putin has this design to rebuild some version of the soviet union. and if he has essentially handed ukraine, which is what this ceasefire is about, i mean, trump talks about peace and he talks about a ceasefire, but why zelensky is so animated? why he asks vance at the end of that meeting, why would you trust putin? is because putin never honored any agreement that he has signed about ukraine. if a ceasefire requires ukraine to draw back from the line, that is essentially just an invitation for putin to walk in. if ukraine is given to him within about two and a half years of invading, then he will likely move on and there will be a conflict where perhaps the united states will be directly at war with russia. and you're right to point out that. over the weekend, there were a handful of republicans that said the easy thing, that

vladimir putin is a dictator and zelensky is not. but let's remember, congressional republicans held up ukraine aid for over six months, allowed for russia to go on the offensive. so even before donald trump was president, congressional republicans were not doing the things necessary to support the most vital fight in defense of democracy in the world today. so i'm just going to be honest with you, i don't have a lot of faith that republicans are going to do anything except just offer some mild criticism of vladimir putin. we're going to need for them at some point to support additional defensive aid for ukraine, more weapons, more economic aid. and they weren't willing to do that before donald trump was president. i'm not sure why they would be willing to do it now when donald trump is literally taking russia's side in this conflict. >> so, senator murphy. >> let's go. >> a little further on that. >> two men with you served. >> in the senate, republicans, jd vance. >> now the. >> vice president, who seemed. >> to be. antagonistic towards. >> zelensky, sort of sparked

the. >> conflict on friday. and then marco rubio. >> the secretary. >> of state, who previously a russia hawk, even. >> you have. >> now said. >> that you. >> your vote. >> to. >> confirm him as secretary of. state was a mistake. >> yeah. >> i think he may be the only member of the cabinet that i supported. he was first out of the gate. and, you know, of course, he was a supporter of ukraine. he was a supporter of nato. there was a theory of the case that maybe he would, you know, serve as some break or check on trump's affection for dictators. you saw him sit there silently. you saw him then criticize zelensky on the air. of course, many of us today believe that our vote for him was a mistake. and i guess we should have known that everyone who signs up to work for donald trump is signing up for one single project, and that is the transition of american democracy to a kind of kleptocratic oligarchy in which the billionaires rule, in which they

get to steal from regular americans. and if that's the domestic project, then the way that you normalize that kind of government is to associate yourself with similar governments abroad, like the kremlin. so it's all part of one big domestic project, the foreign policy, the affection for dictatorships abroad is, in effect, a means towards transitioning our democracy to something very, very different, something we've never, ever seen before in this country. >> so, senator, what is what is the next step? what is what what what are you what are you hearing right now? there's been talk this weekend about the possibility of keir starmer and macron coming up, along with zelensky, with proposed peace deal and all coming back to the white house. is that a possibility? what what are you hearing? >> i mean, listen, putin doesn't want to negotiate with europe and ukraine when he's got a

patsy in the white house. so i'm glad that zelenskyy is talking to the europeans about a real peace deal that would actually secure ukraine. but russia is not going to negotiate with keir starmer or macron. zelensky, when he knows that he can get essentially everything he wants from the american government. so at some point, the united states has to decide whether we're for ukraine or whether we're for russia. you know, this minerals deal is overhyped. i think it would be a good table setter. for repairing the relationship. but, you know, it's not going to help ukraine win the war. maybe over the course of this week they can find a way to get that deal signed. maybe the europeans can continue to push on trump, but this moment feels pretty hopeless because it feels as if, you know, friday wasn't a surprise. i mean, trump's been telling us for months that he is ready to give away ukraine. and

without u.s. support, europe can't do this by themselves. so this is a bit of a back to the drawing board moment. this feels really, really dire for our friends in ukraine. >> it does. >> democratic member of the. >> foreign relations. >> committee, senator. >> chris murphy of connecticut, thank you. >> very much for coming on. so on friday. donald trump. >> seemed to express sympathy for vladimir. putin because they both went through. >> a hell of a. >> lot because of the so-called russia hoax. >> what did. >> russia tiktok's? >> what do you. >> do then? understand that it's a conversation. >> what are you saying? >> she's asking. >> what if russia breaks. the cease fire? >> what if they. what, if anything? what if a bomb drops on your head right now? okay. what if they broke it? i don't know, they broke it with biden because biden didn't respect him. they didn't respect obama. they respect me. let me tell you, putin went through a hell of a lot with me. he went

through a phony witch hunt where they used him and russia, russia, russia, russia. you ever hear of that deal? that was a phony. that was a phony. hunter biden, joe biden scam, hillary clinton, shifty adam schiff it was a democrat scam. and he had to go through that. and he did go through it. and he didn't end up in a war. and he went through it. he was accused of all that stuff. he had nothing to do with it. it came out of hunter biden's bathroom. it came out of hunter biden's bedroom. it was disgusting. >> you know, about. >> five feet to the left of donald trump is a man who once ran the senate intel committee, and he ran it when the republicans were in the majority. and this is what senator marco rubio's senate intel committee report said about the 2016 campaign. paul

manafort's receptivity to russian outreach in the campaign was a, quote, grave counterintelligence threat that made the campaign susceptible to, quote, malign russian influence. maybe that's another reason why marco rubio was slouching on the couch. because when you have the republican senate intel committee saying that donald trump's 2016 campaign posed a quote in marco rubio's senate intel committee reports a, quote, grave counterintelligence threat to the united states of america and made them susceptible to malign russian influences. doesn't sound like much of a hoax, does it? >> no. you know, and for. >> that whole period. >> that. >> that trump was referring to. >> it was this. >> cloak and dagger story of was there something behind the scenes that we didn't know?

>> was there. >> collusion, all these, these terms. >> of those. >> years ago? it's now happening in the open. there's no there's no need to investigate anything. >> it is. >> it is happening before. >> our eyes. >> the kremlin ization. >> of the white house. i think, you. >> know, so much has happened since january 20th, but i think that friday meeting hit people. >> who watched it in. >> a way that very few things have, because it felt like. >> the kind. >> of it felt like to me, the kind of end of the free world as a concept and a construct. >> that. >> the united states is involved with. >> right. >> is it interesting how that when you looked at what happened in london the next day, suddenly it looked like, you know, ronald reagan saying america was the city shining brightly on the hill for all the world to see, talking about pushing back against russian aggression, russian expansion. suddenly it looked like that center had been ceded to ten downing street.

>> and centering him. >> yeah. >> keir starmer. >> got to have his love actually moment. >> he had. >> his love. he grant. >> grant finally. >> develops a little backbone. >> you saw king charles the third actually not shocked that zelensky dressed a bit like winston churchill in world war two at times. >> oh, wow. >> it's an incredible. >> incredible moment. i think. david david's. >> piece is. >> so beautiful. >> and haunting and this, this moment, it feels like the end of something and the beginning of something else. the end of a. >> moment where you could talk about. >> the american president as. >> a leader of the free world and have that. >> concept mean anything. >> and it's, of course, built. on the stuff. >> jd vance went to munich and said. >> and it's built. >> on these, these. >> you know. >> we're drawing. >> from article five. >> commitments and things like that. but it's also. >> the soft. >> launch or maybe the hard launch of, i think. >> another ugly or. >> america as the dominant expression of this country. now in the world, i don't think it's one meeting, i don't think. >> it's one policy. >> and i don't think it's one

man. it no, i. >> mean. >> anecdotally. >> you're right. >> people. >> people even, who don't pay much attention to politics. i heard from in. >> the last. >> couple. >> of days being horrified. >> by what happened on friday. >> because it felt like. >> a betrayal. >> of ukraine. >> and also americans, of course, had generations. >> to learn. >> to distrust russia. >> and suddenly we seem. >> to be we. >> seem to be siding. >> with them. >> we discussed churchill in terms of clothing, but let's the analogy here is really imagine if churchill, who used to come to the oval office to plan the defense of europe. imagine if instead of defending him, fdr had dressed him down and humiliated winston churchill. zelensky is that kind of figure for his country. zelensky is a and he's never asked anything other from us other than resources and money, which is a lot but never human lives. we have not lost one life in europe. >> and this is this is a point. that that many have tried to make. by the way, zelensky, there there are montages of zelensky thanking americans

dozens of times, dozens and dozens of times in that meeting. in that meeting before congress, dozens of times. and what i guess is lost here on some people is that zelensky and the ukrainian people, with the help of europe and the united states of america and american factory workers and american factories, who created, you know, and jobs that were created in, in supporting ukraine have decimated the russian war machine, which again, while they were seen as not being on par with the united states, still considered the second strongest military operation in the world, they have been decimated by the ukrainians. >> they have, and they've lost hundreds of thousands of lives and people wounded. there's one big difference between putin and zelensky. putin doesn't care,

right? he doesn't care if the meat grinder takes up another 100,000 of his own people, another. he's paying people to come into the army. very, very, very poor families are accepting these payments. it's horrible. >> and who made the point. >> about the sacrifice. the ukrainians have made on the us behalf? >> lindsey graham two weeks ago. >> frank. >> for you. >> have written about zelensky. >> just about a week ago, saying that he was the one person who stood up. >> to trump and therefore angers him so much. talk to us about that dynamic. >> that we saw on full display friday. >> in. >> the oval office. >> i think one of the things that's just so striking. >> when you. >> play these things back is the way in which. >> the attacks. >> on putin are so triggering to donald. >> trump. >> and it takes me back. >> to kind. >> of russiagate 101, which is why. >> does why. >> does vladimir putin. >> care so much. >> about. >> american foreign policy. >> and american democracy? the reason that. >> he. cares is because he. >> faced domestic. >> revolt himself against liberal forces. he watched. >> in the. >> former soviet union the.

>> way in which. >> the orange revolution and the rose. revolution took down. >> his allies, and. >> his fundamental. goal was. >> to discredit democracy. and part of the reason that he was rooting. >> for donald trump. >> in 2016 to win was that he. wanted to discredit american democracy. and so when we see the. >> fundamental realignment. that's happening right. >> now. >> it's holding a mirror. >> up. >> to ourselves. we care about. zelenskyy because he he did these very. >> brave things. >> he did these. he had the. >> movie moment. >> of we're still here. >> but we cared about him because. he was. standing up. >> in on behalf of. >> of democracy. >> and to see. >> him get. >> trashed in the. >> oval office like. >> that. >> and to see the way in. >> which the russians. >> are gloating about all of this as that. >> we've we've fundamentally. >> realigned here. i think the. >> reason it. >> stings so much for us is because. >> i think we can. >> see the course. >> that. >> we're on. >> for our own. >> country and. >> that our foreign. >> policy is. reflecting

something. >> i think, pretty devastating. >> about. >> what's happening here. >> domestically to us. >> david. >> it also. >> you know, we always talk about the. >> arc of. >> history bending towards towards justice. we've always looked at our failings and our shortcomings and where we've made mistakes, but we've been able to look beyond that and to say we need to improve. we need to move toward a more perfect union. but this is the country that defeated naziism. this is the country that pushed back stalin in 47, that kept western europe free. this is the country that liberated eastern europe by being stubborn during the cold war. there are statues, statues of ronald reagan across eastern europe. when american troops

went to poland, mika's brother was the ambassador there. polish people came out into the streets weeping and saying, never again. a country that had been put through the meat grinder by the germans and then the soviets. never again. we were the guarantors of freedom. that is a story, as joan didion would say, that we tell ourselves. so we sleep at night, and it's a story we believe that seemed to disappear last friday. that story seemed to be ripped out of the american cannon on friday. >> stand up. >> unless we stand up. >> now and i and i think if you cede all politics and all all rhetoric and all strength to the almighty president of the united states, then the reality and the darkness you're describing will come. >> editor of. >> the new yorker david. >> remnick. >> thank you very. >> much for coming on again this

morning. and his latest piece is available to read online right. >> now. >> the new yorker. >> still ahead. >> on morning joe, former new york governor andrew cuomo says. >> his political career. >> is not. >> over just yet. what he's saying about. >> his. >> decision to jump into the race for new york city mayor. >> plus, elon. >> musk's doge team. >> appears to be taking credit. >> for canceling. >> contracts that actually ended well before. president trump. took office. >> we'll bring. >> in. one of the. >> reporters behind that piece who has been following the money. you're watching. money. you're watching. >> morning joe. we'll be cidp is no walk in the park. that's true. but i take vyvgart hytrulo. same! it's the first major innovation in cidp treatment in over 30 years. vyvgart hytrulo has been proven to significantly reduce the risk of symptoms getting worse. and my cidp can be treated with once-weekly injections that take about 30 to 90 seconds. do not use vyvgart hytrulo if you have a serious allergy to any of its ingredients. serious allergic reactions, like trouble breathing and decrease in blood pressure

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>> 33 past the hour. >> time now for a look. at some of the other. >> stories making headlines this morning. pope francis is in stable condition as he battles pneumonia and other respiratory issues that have had him hospitalized since mid-february. the vatican put out a statement yesterday explaining the 88. year old pontiff no longer needed mechanical ventilation to breathe. while his condition. >> appears to. >> have improved. >> doctors remain cautious about his recovery due to the nature of his illness. former new york. >> governor andrew. >> cuomo has officially announced he is running for. new york city mayor. over the weekend, he shared the news in a nearly 18 minute video posted on social media in which he stated, quote, new york. >> city is in. >> trouble. >> and he ran through a list of.

accomplishments from. >> his. >> time as governor. cuomo is jumping back into politics after he resigned from the. governorship in 2021 following. >> multiple sexual harassment. >> allegations. >> including by nine state employees. >> cuomo has denied the allegations. and health and human services secretary robert. >> f. kennedy jr. >> has written a new op ed. >> for fox. >> news urging. >> americans to get. vaccinated against. >> measles. a growing outbreak. >> in texas. >> and several other states. he writes. >> in part, parents play a pivotal role in. >> safeguarding their. >> children's health. all parents should. >> consult with. >> their health. >> care providers. >> to understand their options and. get the mmr vaccine. the decision to vaccinate is a personal one. >> vaccines not only protect. >> individual children from measles, but also. contribute to community immunity, protecting those who are unable to be

vaccinated due to medical reasons. the measles outbreak in texas is a. >> call. >> to action for all of us to reaffirm our commitment to. public health. a new report posted on axios this morning reveals president trump's maga media army is much bigger. broader and more influential than most people realize. joining us now, co-founder and ceo of axios, jim vandehei with more. >> so, jim, let's talk let's walk through this. a lot of people that that aren't familiar with this maga media universe might say, oh, you know, conservatives and people who support donald trump go to fox news. actually, it's much, much bigger than that. walk us through it. >> yeah, i've been struck in the last couple of. >> months, even when i'm talking to. >> ceos or people in media, how. little they understand the depth and breadth of kind of the maga media ecosystem. it is big. it

is powerful. it is organized, and it. >> operates so much differently than your traditional media ecosystem, and that they see this as information warfare. and we might think about it as like 1 or 2 names. >> like don jr. or charlie kirk, but it's. >> a massive, massive ecosystem. you see a lot of it on x. so anyone who goes to. x formerly twitter, you see a lot of these people. >> but beneath it is. >> where all the. >> activity is. if you go to youtube, if you. >> listen to podcasts, if you go to rumble, if you go to instagram, if you go on tiktok. >> if you go to any place. >> where most. people in america congregate for. >> their. >> information and news, and. >> i. >> think the two end up blending together, mega. >> stars have way more clout. >> way more authority than most of the household names. >> that your viewers. >> are used to following. >> and they cut. >> across all of these platforms so. >> they'll. have huge. followings for their podcasts. >> you look at podcasts on any given week, and that's. >> how a. >> lot of people get the vast majority of their news. you look

at that. top ten. >> ranking. >> you'd be. >> hard pressed to find one liberal, and. >> you're often going to. >> find 5 or. >> 6 people from the maga media. >> infrastructure in there. >> and on. >> that list. >> and then. >> that content. >> moves to youtube, moves across tiktok, moves across instagram, and they have a very shared common worldview. so even if. >> you're thinking about your program today, where you're. >> the interpretation that you. guys have talked about of the zelensky meeting. >> it's a different universe. if you go into maga, they think that they think that vance was a hero and a tough guy, and they think that. >> trump was. >> a. >> master of the universe. >> and that zelensky. was disrespectful. >> in both his tone and his wardrobe. >> and they're all in. >> and that's kind of the. >> ecosystem that. >> sits in is kind of the surround. >> sound for trump. >> but. >> but but it's not a homogenous ecosystem, as you point out. there are sort of three different subsets. and we certainly saw that on thursday of last week where you actually had this, this maga ecosystem

split. a lot of people very angry about about andrew tate, his brother, coming back to the united states. you had lot of people in the maga universe very upset about the epstein files, and there seemed to be a split between these three different groups that you point out. take us through those three groups. >> yeah. i mean, the big one is like the true. >> maga meat eaters. >> like they are. >> full maga, whether it's like a steve bannon. >> or a charlie. >> cook or charlie. >> kirk or. >> a don. >> junior like they. >> are. >> they are unified on almost. all of these topics. >> there is kind of a middle. >> of maga. >> which is like mostly maga folks that you. >> see. like someone like hugh hewitt, who. used to be pretty. >> conventionally conservative, who now. >> would kind of. fall into that category. and then the. big one is like mega adjacent, and that would. >> be like the joe. >> rogan's of the world. where they're. >> not inherently. >> political. not always political. but have become. very

maga. >> over. >> the last 18 months. and i think. >> one of the reasons trump won the election and surprised people. >> was. >> this merger of maga media with what i would consider kind of the bro longevity industrial complex, that. >> kind of. >> that rogan universe or even. >> a huberman. >> who's a, who's a pretty. famous longevity guy. who increasingly. >> is you find. himself injecting. >> himself into politics on x. >> and it's the three of those into totality that. >> do have a lot. >> of clout. and yes, they. >> have edge cases like the tate brothers coming back to the us. >> where there's. >> some disagreement. but but for the most. >> part. >> they don't. >> allow that much disagreement. >> and they use information. >> and i think this. >> is the thing that that democrats are wrestling with right now. they don't look at it as news. they don't. >> look at it as information. they look at it as. information warfare. >> and they look at it having each. other's back and being on each other's shows and going after. >> anybody who's. >> a critic. >> it's one. >> of the big. >> explanations of why. >> you got. >> senate confirmation for.

>> every single. >> person trump wanted. because you do not want to be in the vortex of the maga industrial complex. >> if. >> you're on the wrong side of. >> it, because they will come after you and their people. >> are listening and watching and reading them. >> it's also about toeing the line. i mean, as you said, if you deviate, it's a funny people are saying, we're going to be open minded. we're not being closed minded like old media, like dominant media. and then they go, they start their own media empires, and then they're afraid to do anything that varies at all from what the maga company line is, because they get just absolutely eviscerated from the viewers and their listeners and readers. so, anand, we've talked about this before. i mean, you know, there used to be a presence for liberals. they they did fairly well online, but they don't. they're there as as jim said, you look at the top podcasts,

you look at the top, you know, what accounts are getting the most hits. it's usually it's these maga accounts. >> yeah. >> i mean. >> what jim is. >> describing, you know, in terms of an industry, is. also in many the media apparatus of a cult and functioning as media that that broadcasts lies, convinces people to hate. >> is built. >> on a brainwashing function. so that when the humiliation and the disgrace of friday, as we were talking about, happens, there is ready for them a bunch of millions of. >> people who will, who. >> will see it in a reality distortion field that has been created. and i think it's incredibly important. you're right that that people who are on the pro-democracy side in this country build up a media apparatus that can. >> the word i've. >> used again and again is, is help people make meaning. right? meaning doesn't make itself when a, when an event like friday happens in the oval office, the meaning of that is not self-generating. >> and if you have this.

>> giant apparatus that jim is describing that is helping people make one meaning of it, a meaning that is. >> favorable to. >> vladimir putin, favorable to the kremlin. and you don't really have, you know, democratic politicians, certainly, but also not a giant new media apparatus on the. pro-democracy side that helps people make a different meaning, that helps. >> people remind people of what the united states. >> has been, what. >> it has stood up for in. >> eastern europe, etcetera. then you're just ceding the territory. and this. >> is. >> a we i just don't believe we can see this, this new media territory. frank. >> let's. >> get your thoughts on this, because. i agree, it's not just. about two silos, two teams talking past each other who can't agree on the same set. >> of facts. >> it's about deliberate. >> information warfare. >> right. >> and as. i'm listening. >> to this whole conversation. >> i keep asking myself the. >> question. >> how do we as a. >> nation ever. >> get back. >> from the trajectory where this is headed. >> us when there's. >> no ability to pierce these. >> systems, when it's not. just fox news we're talking. >> about anymore. >> it's we're talking about an

army. and where. >> there. is no ability. >> for any sort. of countervailing set of facts or authority or narrative. >> to pierce through this and the way. >> in which. it's so immersed. >> i'm just struck by the phrase the. >> bro longevity, bro longevity industrial. >> complex. >> because i think it reflects the way in. >> which a. >> lot of. >> this. >> maga world is nestled within. >> lifestyle messaging and health. >> and. >> wellness messaging. >> and it becomes harder and harder. to pierce that. because it's it is. >> so niche and it is. seemingly a political. >> in. >> the. >> same sort. >> of way. >> that. >> rogan was. >> somebody who. >> began as kind of an apolitical. >> sort of guy. and so i. >> just wonder. >> how do we ever escape this cycle. >> real quick? >> you know, that's. >> it's a very. >> important question. and i think that in my last book, the persuaders, the biggest thing i learned trying to think about this question is rebutting this bad information does not work. people don't like to be fact.

>> checked, right? >> helping to explain the manipulation, helping to explain the con. that is the only thing that has ever worked against. >> the. >> special report will be available this morning for axios and executive briefing members. co-founder and ceo of axios, jim vandehei, thank you very much for coming on this morning and the atlantic's frank forde, thank you as well. and coming up, republicans continue to face criticism from constituents over the department of government efficiencies, cuts to the federal workforce. we'll show you some of the comments made during town halls in deep red states. plus, president trump is set to deliver a joint address to congress tomorrow. we'll dig into what we can expect to hear with democratic senator tammy baldwin of wisconsin. morning joe will be right back. >> with your. family to speak. >> i'm howie. >> mandel, the newest ambassador

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slimming the magnesium plus calcium supplement that helps relax tense muscles. so i. can rest comfortably and slow. mag tablets have a slow release formula that's gentle on my stomach. >> that's why i. >> use slow mag. >> tomorrow, president trump addresses both chambers of congress. rachel maddow and team will break down the speech and its impact at home and abroad. the joint address to congress. special coverage tomorrow at eight on msnbc. >> all right. ten minutes before the top of the hour. republican lawmakers continue to face pushback from angry constituents at town halls across the us amid mass layoffs and cuts to federal funding by the doge team. over the weekend, republican. congressman keith south of texas was met with chants of do your job from his community. take a listen. >> the other one. >> is the. >> doge program that.

>> this is very close. >> to me. again, what. bill clinton. >> did. >> between 95. >> and. >> managed to. >> get 400,000. >> jobs. >> in 2000. >> yes. that's right. >> and republican senator roger marshall of kansas walked out of his town hall after just 20 minutes when he was confronted by upset voters. >> and by the way, if you watch senator marshall's town hall meeting and you see the people that are talking concerned about veterans losing their jobs, they they were not like some left

wing democrat. they were not democratic plants. you look at those people go, okay. yeah, yeah. >> he just walked. >> he turned around. >> he turned around and just, just just walked out. >> meanwhile, a new york times report reveals the department of government efficiency is taking credit for killing certain government contracts and saving money, when in fact, those contracts were already dead or ended under previous presidents. case in point last week, dodge took credit for canceling a coast guard contract, claiming it saved taxpayers more than $53 million. but according to the times, that contract was signed by president george w bush and completed in 2005. >> oh come on. >> and the government only. >> paid 20 years, $144,000. all right, let's bring in right now the coauthor of that piece, investigative reporter for the new york times, david fahrenthold. david, i mean, i expected, like, something that just ran out during the biden administration, but they're

really going back to 2005. >> that's right. 2005. >> 2006, 2014. >> the dodge contracts. >> and things are claiming credit for canceling now. and with sometimes huge savings like you saw. they've been dead some time since the biden administration, but sometimes since previous administration dead for many years. >> can you did you get any explanation from white house officials or from dodge officials why this keeps happening? you know, it would again, it would seem that this is not only against the best interests of the public because we don't know the truth, but this also undermines whatever work they're doing. so why can't they seem to get their message straight? >> that's what we've. >> been. >> trying to figure out, because. >> we reported. >> last week that when they put out their. >> original dodge, put out their. original wall of receipts with their biggest cuts, turned out a week. >> later, the top five.

>> were all wrong. >> they were. >> off. by tens by about $10 billion. so we've asked them, like, are the agencies fooling you, dodge? are they. sending you bogus data to try to hide. >> what they're. >> doing, to try to avoid real cuts by giving you fake cuts and you just don't know? or do you know. >> and. >> you just don't care? the answer we've gotten from the white house is not very satisfactory. they say, well, those checks, the numbers that the agency sent in for the budget cuts, then we say, well, if they're checking it, why is it so wrong? and what they say is, well, call the agencies. when you call the agencies, they say, well, call dodge. so there's no accountability or no explanation for why these really large errors keep getting in their data. >> so in the large errors get in the data and you call white house. communication shop. they they don't have the answers. they tell you to go to the agencies. >> that's right. and the agencies say. >> to call the white house. >> and through all your reporting, what's your take on this? is, is that deliberate or

is it just again that that the president may have deferred so much to elon musk that he's letting elon musk run this operation and have has. elon musk putting out this disinformation. what what what's your best read. when we talk to. >> people who. >> really know government. >> contracts, they. >> say that the errors. >> that dodge is making. >> are pretty. >> obvious ones like the one the contract from 2005. you could see it was a contract since 2005. by clicking a link, you didn't need to know a lot of government mumbo jumbo to understand what that was. >> it just. >> seems like they don't understand the data that they're dealing with, or they're not willing to learn it well enough to understand it. >> and that matters. >> because. >> they're obviously. >> dealing with a huge amount of very complex government systems while telling us, look, we. >> know better. >> we're smart enough to be able to see insights that other people in the government have never been able to see. and what we're seeing is sort of the opposite, that they don't see things that are obvious to everybody else. >> the new report is online now. investigative reporter for the new york times, david fahrenthold, thank you so much

for your reporting this morning. and joining us now, democratic senator tammy baldwin of wisconsin. she's a member of the senate appropriations, commerce and health committees. very good to have you here with us this morning. >> great to be here. >> so since you're on the appropriations committee, you're perfect person to ask is, is the continued impoundment by doge of funds authorized and appropriated by congress? is that a constitutional violation of article one powers? >> it absolutely is. >> and it. >> is so. >> clear in article. >> one that congress makes the. >> laws. >> passes the budgets and the. >> appropriation bills. >> and it is the administration, the. >> president, who. >> implements and. >> administers those. >> and we're seeing. >> conflict there. started with that. >> federal funding freeze. >> and of. >> course. >> lawsuits were. >> filed immediately. but the. >> harm occurred. >> we had head starts. >> in wisconsin.

>> that closed. >> 250 families. >> in waukesha. >> wisconsin, displaced. >> for a. >> week because they couldn't access. >> funding to. run their. >> head start program. and in the courts, of course, we got a stay of those freezes. >> we got a rescission. >> of the. >> omb directive. >> the funding started back. >> it has most of the. >> portals have opened. >> but reopened. >> however. >> some were. >> so archaic. >> in terms of the it. >> infrastructure that. >> they didn't open. >> immediately. >> even though i. >> think the intent. >> was to. but we're. >> seeing impoundment. >> in other areas. >> we're seeing. >> you know. >> the closure. >> of agencies. >> like usaid. >> and. >> you know. >> firing people. >> not necessarily. >> impoundment. >> but this. >> is by. >> an unelected, unaccountable organization. >> i mean. >> we got. >> to remember. d.o.j. >> the department of government. >> efficiency is not. >> an official. organization of any sort.

>> and elon. >> musk. >> they claim. >> is not the. >> head of it. >> but he clearly is. >> calling the shots. >> he's not elected. right. there's no. >> accountability here. >> and some. >> of. >> the. >> contracts that. >> have. >> been canceled. >> have resulted. >> in. >> business going to his. >> you know, his operations. >> corruption at. >> the highest levels right there out. >> in. >> the open. >> so i don't wanna get too deep in the weeds, but i think this is important for viewers to know. not only does this seem to be unconstitutional because these are these are article one powers. it also breaks the law when. >> the. >> impoundment law, when nixon tried to impound funds. congress passed a law in 1974, the impoundment act of 74, that explicitly states, a president can't do this. >> exactly. >> and i think. >> they are. >> trying to. >> break it, to. >> create a. >> case that they ultimately bring. >> up. >> to the supreme court. >> and i hope the supreme. >> court would. >> stand firmly. >> with. >> article one.

>> and the impoundment act. >> but i think. >> his top advisers have said. >> that they. >> think it's unconstitutional. and we will probably. >> see this play out. >> at some. >> point during. >> this, this. >> trump term. so. >> by the way, if i can just say none other than william rehnquist said that the impounding of funds by the president was that it was a breach of article one powers. yeah. william rehnquist. >> not not exactly. >> a justice. >> roberts will be. key in. >> this in. terms of the integrity. >> of the court. >> and so we hope. >> he's. >> paying close. >> attention to this. >> yeah. >> we will. >> have to watch there. >> you obviously. >> won in. >> wisconsin state. >> that donald trump also won. >> these cuts here. >> we're talking about it's also slashing like alzheimer's. >> disease research other health issues. >> do you think that the people who. voted for donald trump, this is what. >> they cast their ballot for? because there's also rumors of medicaid cuts. >> we might even hear from trump. >> and his speech tomorrow.

night to congress, you. >> know. >> on medicaid and medicare. >> trump. >> a little over a week ago, said. >> on fox news. >> i'm not. >> touching social security, medicare and medicaid. >> and he said it. >> multiple times. >> the next morning. >> he endorsed. >> the. >> republican house budget. >> which calls. >> for nearly. >> $1 trillion in cuts to medicaid. >> how does that impact rural health care in wisconsin? >> it will. >> devastate critical access hospitals in rural areas. nursing homes will have to close. >> remember that. >> 8 million seniors depend on medicaid, especially. >> when they need. >> skilled nursing care. >> and a. >> third of all. >> children are. on medicaid. >> adults with. >> disabilities often are on medicaid for their. health care and transportation needs. and so i can tell you. >> our phones are ringing. >> off the hook. my guest for the state of the union tomorrow.

>> will be a woman with. >> stage four metastatic breast cancer. >> who relies. >> on medicaid. >> for her treatment. she is terrified. >> about the. >> possible impacts. >> of a cut to. >> medicaid. >> because it will mean either. >> she and her family go. >> bankrupt, or she'll. >> stop treatment. >> senator, i. >> want to ask you about democrats finding their voice and footing against this. no one, none of us in civics class, none of us in college were quite prepared for what we're seeing now. this kind of anti-constitutional coup, this unelected billionaire dictating policy, standing in the cabinet office, talking about accidentally cutting ebola funding. but i think a lot of people have felt like democrats don't quite know how to speak to quite this level. >> of severity. >> and i think a lot of people i meet feel very undefended. they feel kind of rampaged by the right and undefended by the

left. i know you and your colleagues are doing things. things are being done. there are meetings, there are committees. but i just a very visceral level. i would say most lay democrats that i meet feel just very undefended feel. it's not clear. there's no briefings, there's no shadow cabinet. a lot of different ideas have been proposed. do you think there's truth in that feeling, even though you and your colleagues are doing something and how how close are democrats to figuring out a way to respond to this moment that would address that? >> so steve bannon and. >> steve miller advising. >> the president, said. >> we are going. >> to flood. >> the zone. and we're. >> seeing that. and we've. >> never. you know, how many announcements each day. >> just that. >> and especially on friday nights and over the weekends. but there are sort of three pronged strategy for all. >> of this. and that is the courts. >> we're just talking about the strategy in the courts to. >> make sure. that these actions. >> are. >> constitutional and lawful. >> and the congress. and we're

limited in. >> what we can do because we're in the minority. >> in. >> both houses. >> but you do require a. supermajority to pass. >> most laws in the senate. >> so 60. >> votes we can do we have leverage there. and our constituents. >> and as i. >> said, my phones are ringing off the hook. we're organizing folks. >> and saying, don't just call me. >> call my republican counterpart. call your congresspeople. >> they're attending these town hall meetings. >> are because people are organizing and understand the critical nature of their voice. and i just think back to the first. >> trump administration. >> it was the people. >> and the. >> congress and the democrats who saved the affordable care act. and we're going to have to do the. >> same on medicaid. >> we're going to have to do the. same against doj's. >> indiscriminate firing of people. >> who keep our veterans healthy, who keep our air. >> space safe. >> and, you know, are on the

front lines of fighting the avian flu outbreak. >> just on the question of making people feel defended. >> yes. >> and have communication. do you do you think there's a role for maybe the democrats appointing one person, a gifted communicator, a pete buttigieg or someone else to do a daily briefing, something to actually centralize all these many good things that are happening. but a. >> lot. >> of people are not feeling like they know what the democrats response is. >> so i. >> have long faulted my own party. >> for. >> for not being, as. you know. >> message focused as my republican. counterparts who will go and. >> say the same thing over. >> and over and again. but we're getting there. we've held the floor. we've we've held more all nighters that than i've had. >> since. >> college, just in the last couple of weeks on the floor, holding the floor, talking about. >> some of the. >> nominees that are very dangerous, as well as, you know, noting the consequence of

proposals like cutting medicaid. >> so democratic senator tammy baldwin of wisconsin, thank you so much. >> thank you. thank you for being here. >> and we're back in just one minute with what european leaders are now doing to reaffirm their support for ukraine, following what went ukraine, following what went down in the tap into etsy for home and style staples to help you set any vibe. from custom lighting under 150 dollars to vintage jackets under 100. for affordable pieces to help you make a fresh start, our xfinity network is built for streaming all the stuff people love. how can it get any better? -i'm just spitballin' here, but, what if we offer people apple tv+, netflix and peacock? for one low monthly price. -yes. so, people could stream the shows they love. and we could call it... xfinity streamsaver! mmmmm. what about something like: streamsaver? ooooooo. -i love that. add streamsaver with apple tv+, netflix and peacock included for only $15 a month... and stream all your favorite entertainment, all in one place. office and

you refuse to. >> wear a suit. >> just want to see if. >> you own. >> a suit. yeah, yeah. >> problems. >> a lot of americans. >> have. >> problems with. you know. >> i didn't have. i will wear a costume after this war will finish. you are not strong. >> with respect, i think it's disrespectful. >> for you to. >> come into. >> the. oval office and.

>> try. >> to. >> litigate this. >> in front of the american media. >> you should be. >> thanking the. >> president for trying to bring. >> an end. >> to this. >> have you ever been to ukraine that you say what problems we have? >> i have been. >> to come once. >> i have actually. i've actually watched. >> and seen the stories and i. know what happens is you. >> bring people. >> you bring them on. >> a propaganda tour. >> you got to be more thankful because let me tell you, you don't have the cards with us. you have the cards, but without us, you don't have any cards. the problem is, i've empowered you to be a tough guy. and i don't think you'd be a tough guy without the united states. and your people are very brave. but you're either going to make a deal or we're out. and if we're out, you'll fight it out. i don't think it's going to be pretty, but you'll fight it out. but you don't have the cards. >> why don't you. >> wear a suit? >> yeah. >> why don't. >> you wear a suit? you're the highest level. >> in this. >> country's office. >> and you. >> refuse to wear. a suit. >> just want. >> to. >> see if you do own a suit. >> yeah? >> yeah. problems. >> a lot of americans.

>> have problems. >> with respect. >> i didn't have office. i will wear a costume after this war will finish. >> all right. good morning and welcome to morning joe. >> it's monday, march. >> 3rd with us. we have the co-host of our fourth hour contributing. >> writer. >> at the atlantic, jonathan lemire. president and founder. of eurasia group and. gzero media. ian bremmer. is here, columnist and associate editor for the washington post. david ignatius, chairman of the renew democracy initiative, former world chess champion garry kasparov and wall street journal reporter alan cullison. he is a former moscow correspondent for the journal, reporting from russia for over 20 years. >> mr. kasparov, i suspect this is more personal to you than most. i'm curious your thoughts on what you just saw there, what you saw on friday, what you've been seeing throughout the weekend. >> yeah, of course i was surprised by the spat in in the

white house, but somehow it was expected, because when you look at the actions of this administration and also at the at the awards from many officials like jd vance, you saw that the train has been moving in this direction and everything they did and said, you know, somehow benefited russia. so supporting neo nazi party in germany on russian funding, supporting a neo-nazi candidate in romania. orban, fascist, also funded by russia. and in everything that you know that that we saw. it's actually every action had a russian component behind it. and i say that i believe in coincidences, but i also believe in kgb. and i'm still i don't understand even now, look again at this, at this episode, if the deal was good. so why the this kind of exchange, you know, derailed it. if the deal was good for the united states, why the jd vance intervened and clearly was an

intention to take zelenskyy off the balance and make sure that this signing is not happening? >> well, it certainly. >> triggered a response in europe. >> one day. >> after that tense. oval office confrontation, president zelensky arrived in london, where british prime minister keir starmer walked out of ten downing street to greet him with a warm embrace. he reaffirmed the uk's support for ukraine and pledged a $2.8 billion military loan. >> to the country. >> have you heard some of that cherry in the street? that is, the people of the united kingdom coming out to demonstrate how much they support you, how much they support ukraine, and our absolute determination to stand with the unwavering determination. >> the prime minister also hosted a high stakes summit yesterday, with european leaders urging nations to boost aid, maintain pressure. >> on russia. >> and form a coalition of the

willing for. ukraine's defense. compare that with the contentious oval office meeting on friday between president trump, vice president jd vance and ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky. the visit started off cordial but got more tense as trump took questions from reporters in the room. the meeting turned hostile after vance accused zelensky of being disrespectful and not being thankful enough for u.s. assistance, leading to several minutes of heated exchanges. >> what kind of diplomacy, g-d, you are speaking about what what what what do you mean? >> i'm talking about the. >> kind of diplomacy that's going to end. >> the destruction. >> of your country. >> yes, but. >> mr. president, mr. president, with. >> respect. >> i think. >> it's disrespectful. >> for you to. >> come into the. >> oval office and. >> try to. >> litigate this in front of the american media. right now, you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines because you have manpower problems. you should be thanking the president. >> for trying to.

>> bring an end to. >> this conflict. >> into ukraine, that you say what problems we have. >> i have. been to. >> come once during the war. everybody has problems, even you. but you have nice ocean and don't feel now, but you will feel it in the future. >> god bless you don't know that. >> god bless you. god bless you. >> you don't tell us what we're going to feel. we're trying to solve a problem. don't tell us what we're going to feel. >> i'm not telling you. >> because you're in no position to dictate that. remember, you're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel. we're going to feel very good. we're going to feel very good and very strong influence. you're right now not in a very good position. you've allowed. yourself to be in a. >> very bad position. >> and he happens to be right. >> about from the very beginning of the war. >> not in a good position. you don't have the cards right now with us. you start. >> having cards. >> cards right now you don't. you're playing. >> cards, you're playing cards. >> you're gambling with the. lives of millions of people.

you're gambling with world war. >> three, you're. >> gambling with world war three. and what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country. this country. >> have you said thank. you once this entire meeting? >> no. in this entire meeting. >> have you said thank you? >> the problem is, i've empowered you to be a tough guy. and i don't think you'd be a tough guy without the united states. and your people are very brave. but you're either going to make a deal or we're out. and if we're out, you'll fight it out. i don't think it's going to be pretty, but you'll fight it out. but you don't have the cards. but once we sign that deal, you're in a much better position. but you're not acting at all thankful. and that's not a nice thing. i'll be honest. that's not a nice thing. all right. i think we've seen enough. what do you think this is? this is going to be great television. i will say that. >> fascinating that jd vance, i guess maybe for the first time, decided to just jump in in a

meeting and take over a meeting where donald trump was running that meeting. really interesting. so many things deeply disturbing about that meeting. but you don't have to take that from me. just look at marco rubio slouched on the couch when the question is asked of a man who has been enduring the most horrific of slaughter from russian troops over the past three years, and watching people that he knew and loved killed and watching the country that he loved invaded by russian invaders and killed. asked if he was wearing a suit, why he wasn't wearing a suit. interesting. winston churchill never asked that question in washington. well, the reaction to that stunning meeting, that sickening meeting was swift, the wall street journal editorial board wrote in part this the point of the meeting was

supposed to be progress toward an honorable peace for ukraine, and the event was winner was russia's vladimir putin. but as with the war, mr. zelensky didn't start this oval office exchange. he was supposed to. was he supposed to tolerate an extended public denigration of the ukrainian people who have been fighting a war for survival for the three years? the washington post editorial writing, quote, trump, for his part, should recognize the big picture if he wants to avoid world war three, he should heed the lessons of world war two, appeasing dictators doesn't work. putin, a former kgb officer, responds to toughness, not trembling. he respects force, not flattery. and just ask the people of georgia that and the people of ukraine that and the people of crimea that won putin invasion after another

met by non-responses by american presidents until 2022. and we see what happens there. and the new york times columnist tom friedman writing, it's hard to express what a break this is in american foreign policy. but i can't think of a single time when an american president declared that the democratically elected leader of a country preserving liberty was, quote, a dictator who started the war with his neighbor when it was vicious, neighboring dictator who actually started the war. this is a total perversion of u.s. foreign policy practice by every president since world war one. that was tom friedman, the washington post editorial page, and the wall street journal editorial page. >> and yesterday we did hear from some republicans on this. we heard from republican senator, a member of the intelligence committee, james lankford, as well as house speaker mike johnson, who were both clear about the threats posed by russian president

vladimir putin. >> no, we're. >> not turning our back on ukraine. nor should we. putin is a murderous kgb thug that murders his political enemies and is a dictator there. and so we've seen that. we've seen his aggression. countries around him have seen that. what i hear president trump saying. >> over and. >> over again is we need to get to a stop and fighting, find some resolution. i understand zelensky is rightfully concerned that putin has violated every single agreement he's ever signed, and that he can't be trusted. he's i think they understand each other and that obviously. >> there. >> are differences where zelensky wants more in the way of some kind of security guarantees. the united states is not willing to be able to put troops on the ground. >> i think vladimir putin is a an old school communist, a former kgb agent. he's not to be trusted and he is dangerous. the way i view this is that china, russia, iran and north korea are engaged in a new axis or axis powers, and they are not on america's side. >> everybody, of course, in the

administration and the trump administration read straight off notes, took the company line even, bizarrely, tulsi gabbard, a lot of people in the intel community asking why she's deciding to do pr instead of her job. meanwhile, there's this. >> i want. >> to tell you. >> and your people. >> you're the. >> ally i've been hoping for all my life. not one american. >> has died defending ukraine. >> you've taken our weapons and you've kicked their. and i'm very. proud to have you as. >> our ally. >> so what? i think complete, utter disaster. somebody asked me, am i embarrassed about trump? >> i have never. >> been more. >> proud of the president. >> i was very proud. >> of jd. vance standing. >> up for our country. we want to be helpful. what i saw in the oval office was disrespectful, and i don't know if we can ever do business with. zelensky again. i don't i think most

americans saw a guy that they would not want to go in business with. the way he handled the meeting, the way he. confronted the president was just over the top. he either needs to resign and send somebody over that we can do business with, or he needs. >> to change. >> lindsey graham twisting and contorting once again, all for the benefit of donald trump. i must tell you, my last meeting with john mccain, there were two things that were on his mind. one was the continuing threat from vladimir putin, which he talked about at great length and brought up the names of all the political leaders that vladimir putin had killed and all the treaties that he had broken. and the second was his heartbreak with lindsey graham for basically selling out all of his values for a round of golf with donald trump. >> the first. >> sound we heard there from. >> lindsey graham. >> was just two. >> weeks ago. >> at the munich security

conference. that's when he praised zelensky sitting alongside him. >> saying he was a model ally. >> and then in. >> the last, it was. >> friday. >> after the meeting where graham, like so many members of. >> the trump cabinet, looked like they were handed talking points. they all took to twitter, they all praised trump. they all. >> thanked trump. >> for how tough he. was in that meeting. that includes secretary. >> of state rubio. >> do you think marco got out of his like days to actually type in the words that were handed to him, or do you think somebody did? >> i suspect. >> someone on the. >> secretary staff. >> seriously, you realize it was when the question was asked about the suit, it really was. you can see that was a soul crushing experience for a life long russia hawk. >> the question asked. >> by a reporter. >> from a. >> conservative outlet. >> let into the oval office because of how the white house has changed the. press pool access. mind you, that reporter also. >> dating congresswoman. >> marjorie taylor greene. >> and we had. >> two distinct reactions. >> in that oval office. we saw. marco rubio looked like he wanted to disappear into the couch itself.

>> because to joe's. >> point, he is someone whose whole. career has been someone. >> who has tried to stand up. >> to russia. >> in that moment, he had to go along with the president. >> we also saw the ukrainian ambassador at the top of our show sink. >> her head in. >> her hands, because. >> she knew what a. >> disaster that meeting was. the meeting after. >> the oval. >> office canceled. >> early. >> there was no news conference, no minerals. >> deal signed. lunch went uneaten. >> yeah. and then, of course, the reaction from europe, the reaction from keir starmer, the british people, ian lined up in the streets cheering like, i suppose americans used to. cheering for zelensky, cheering for freedom. keir starmer saying we're with you. king charles the third you notice, wasn't shocked at all that he dressed like a wartime leader as churchill dressed like a wartime leader. and then, of course, the people of europe, the leaders of europe, ursula von der leyen, having the strongest words of

support, talk about that. and what does it mean long term for the united states, long term for europe, long term for ukraine? >> look, trump. >> sees ukraine not as an ally, not. as a courageous leader. he sees zelensky. >> as a supplicant. >> he sees him as weak. >> and america gets. >> to make. >> the rules. >> no. >> no different. >> in that. >> regard than. >> the way. >> he'd see the panamanian leader or the. >> danish leader, or the mexican. >> leader, or the canadian leader. these are people. >> that have to come to him and who have to jump when. >> he says jump. >> and the fact that the ukrainians. >> have fought. >> for three years. >> is irrelevant. >> from trump's perspective. >> he wants to end the war. >> that is. >> the priority. it's the only priority. >> and why is he calling zelensky? why is he calling the victim the tyrant and a dictator and calling the invader, refusing to call the invader the invader? >> he wants to. >> do a. >> deal with putin. he's made that very clear. what's

interesting. >> here. >> it's not just. >> the decisive. >> break with ukraine. >> it is the fact that the americans, the president of the united states and his administration. >> and the. russian president. >> actually have strategic alignment. >> on europe. >> they both. >> want a weak european union. >> a fragmented. >> european union. they don't see them as. >> principal allies of the united states. they see them as a challenge. >> this started. >> with munich. >> a couple of weeks ago. >> when the vice president. >> j.d. vance. >> running the delegation. >> went and he said. >> you are the problem. you in this. >> room. >> not. >> russia, not china. >> not iran, you in. this room. >> by being. >> opposed to democracy, opposed to free. >> speech. >> opposed to. >> a party. >> that. you consider. >> to. be a neo nazi party. >> that was. >> the beginning. >> and the conclusion. >> was what. >> we saw. >> transpire in the oval office on friday. >> when the. >> same vice president and president. >> trump said, we. are not going. >> to support you. >> we're in between. >> we're going to cut.

>> a. >> deal with russia. that's going to. >> be the end of the war. >> so if. >> you're europe. >> you better. >> stand up. you've had years to stand up. >> you haven't been. >> you don't stand up now. you are. >> in very serious trouble. >> and of course, making europe paying more money to ukraine in the defense of ukraine to the united states. that's one of the lies that was told repeatedly last week. the other lie that the united states has given $350 billion to ukraine. that's a lie we've given. perhaps we've appropriated half of that, half we've probably given in the end, about a third of that, a lot of that money going to american factories, to american workers, to american jobs, to american munitions. so, yeah, i mean, the fact that, by the way, this is a continuation of donald trump attacking constantly democratically elected leaders in europe in the first term and then saying extraordinarily nice things about dictators like vladimir putin, autocrats like orban in hungary. and that continues today. >> david ignatius, your response

to this meeting? european reaction and whether or not this was just a complete and total gift to putin. >> so. >> mika. >> lindsey graham had it right. >> when he said it was. >> a complete and utter disaster. it was kind of. >> piece of. >> television that i. >> don't think any of us have ever watched or imagined we. >> would from the oval office. >> the question for me now is whether it's possible to pick up the pieces. >> and if so, how? >> it's really striking to look at the reactions. three days later, the. kremlin is delighted. >> the kremlin spokesman, dmitry. >> dmitry peskov, said that u.s. policy is now largely aligned with. that of russia. can you imagine that. >> that. >> that's that's a description from the kremlin of where things stand. meanwhile, keir starmer, the head. >> of what's. >> traditionally our. >> closest ally. >> britain. >> is trying. >> desperately. >> i think. >> to find a way to mediate.

between putin. >> not putin. >> but zelensky. >> and trump, and. >> see if there's a way back towards having the kind of peace deal that. >> they envisioned. >> i'm told, david, what's your reaction? i'm curious. what's your reaction to how much of a break this has been for u.s. policy going back over the past 80 years? >> so i. >> think. >> in terms. >> of. >> of rhetoric, it's. fundamental break. is it going. >> to last? >> my own guess is that over the next few weeks, we'll we'll see an attempt to resolve these differences. >> ukrainian sources have. >> told me that zelensky is eager to get back into a dialog with the us. he came to the white house ready to sign a deal to turn over much of the proceeds of ukraine's mineral wealth to the united states as part of an effort to get the us

involved. so i would think that all of this appears to be a. total break today. it's likely that. >> a month from now it will it. >> will. >> appear less than that. >> i think the more basic problem is what ian was saying. that the us is now in a very different position. >> vis a vis. >> russia and europe than in. >> my lifetime. >> and that's. >> that's going to. >> be harder to fix. trump. >> for some. >> reason. >> sees his. >> mission as as reaching out to vladimir putin and bringing him into a peace. >> deal. >> make peace. >> he said. he's going to do it in 24 hours, but that's that's his. >> priority. >> to accomplish that, he's done an extraordinary range. >> of things. >> insulting our ally ukraine in the oval office is one. but one that's even more striking in some ways is the report that our secretary of defense. has told the cyber command to stop aggressive cyber operations against russia, at least for the

period of these negotiations. again, a way to woo putin into discussions. so, you know, these are, you know, hard to imagine that that we would be telling cyber command to. >> to at. >> a time when russia still conducts intense offensive operations against the. us to stand down on some of these. >> coming up, nbc news is on the ground in russia. our chief international correspondent keir simmons, has the very latest from moscow when he joins the conversation straight ahead on conversation straight ahead on morning joe. ♪ are you having any fun? ♪ ♪ what you getting out of living? ♪ ♪ who cares for what you've got ♪ ♪ if you're not having any fun? ♪ ♪ are you having any laughs? ♪ ♪ are you getting any loving? ♪ ♪ if other people do, why can't you? ♪ ♪ have a little fun ♪ ♪ and have ♪

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>> my friend linda has you guys and gets. way better coverage than i do. >> sounds like linda has you. >> beat only in coverage. >> and plans. >> start at $20. >> okay. >> price to call or. >> visit. >> consumer cellular to switch today. >> as david mentioned, the kremlin spokesman, dmitry peskov, told a russian state media reporter that the trump administration's rapid changes to u.s. foreign policy, quote, largely coincides with our vision. let's bring in nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons live from moscow. >> with reaction from russia. keir, what are you hearing? >> well, mika, one interesting aspect of all of this is that we haven't heard from president putin since friday. now, that is fascinating because very likely he is watching and waiting. i'm told by a senior diplomat with knowledge of the talks that there are plans right now for more bilateral talks between the

u.s. and russia. there is not a date in the diary, clearly, that could be put in the diary very, very quickly. i suspect president putin is thinking that there is enormous opportunity here and also risk. he will know that we are on the precipice of a potential major crisis in europe and in nato, and at the same time, the russians have been watching events in europe. in the uk yesterday and over the weekend and commenting the russian media and the kremlin on that. so, for example, the kremlin posting a picture of those european leaders and saying, here are the leaders who are organizing opposition to trump and putin. so clearly trying to message to washington that there should be an alliance between the kremlin and the trump administration and that europe is the problem, but also

at the same time, the kremlin warning europe, threatening europe, really against using those seized russian assets to help ukraine, saying there will be serious consequences. and i think that illuminates that there will be a concern in the kremlin that a newly united europe, more determined to send troops, for example, to ukraine, actually does present some, some risks for the kremlin. you know, president trump described what happened on friday as great television. russian television agrees. those scenes have been playing out on russian tv all weekend. the interviews that you were playing at the top of the show from u.s. tv, those are being played here on russian tv consistently. and where keir starmer, for example, talks yesterday about a coalition of the willing in europe, it would have been noted in russia that, of course, that suggests that there are those in europe who are unwilling. so there are

comments here in russia, but not by not by the president himself, by those around him and by the media around him. and i think another piece of that to just note from last week is, if you think about it from the russian perspective, what they watched happen. they watched the vote in the un, where the u.s. refused to condemn russia. then just before that meeting on friday, they watched as the trump administration extended sanctions against russia, and then that event in the oval office and all of the implications of that. so as much as this has been head spinning for all governments around the world, i think it is to for the kremlin. and another interesting aspect of all this, there are signs from president putin amid all of that, those events last week that he is urging his government, his intelligence

operation, to double down on, on particularly targeting europe. so where the secretary of defense, pete hegseth, ordered the pentagon to stop offensive cyber operations against russia on on thursday last week, president putin held a meeting with the fsb. the which was once, of course, the kgb, and he urged them to thwart any attempt to disrupt what he describes as the newly resumed dialog between russia and the us, urging them to significantly strengthen counterintelligence measures. so there are there are melting multi layers here. there are many, many things happening at once. another aspect of this, just to note, if the us this week and there are signs that this could happen, pulls support for ukraine that would significantly strengthen russia's hand. and i suppose you could say, ironically, i think

makes it less likely that the kremlin will look to a ceasefire or even a peace deal, because it will think that that will give it opportunities on the battlefield. >> coming up, our next guest wants the president to remember negotiating peace is very different from cutting a real estate deal. we'll talk more about the dynamics to ending a war. when morning joe comes war. when morning joe comes right back. shipstation lets you keep up with the growth of your business. you can sync inventory and manage returns across all your sales channels. so you ship the right products, to the right customers. ♪♪ head to shipstation.com to start your free trial. my mental health was better. but uncontrollable movements called td,tardive dyskinesia, started disrupting my day. td felt embarrassing. i felt like disconnecting. i asked my doctor about treating my td, and learned about ingrezza.

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the blueprint with jen psaki. listen now. >> what was it. >> like when trump got elected? what was the. what was the reaction? do you think about ice coming to knock on your front door? >> for president trump's first 100 days, alex wagner travels to the story to talk with people most impacted by the policies. >> were you there. >> on january? >> i was there on january 6th. >> did it surprise you that you were fired, given how resolutely nonpartisan you have been? >> and for more in-depth reporting, follow her podcast, trumpland with alex wagner. >> so. >> alan, we haven't heard yet. >> from president. >> putin publicly, but we did hear. from dmitri medvedev, who said, quote, the insolent pig, referring. >> to zelensky. >> the insolent pig. >> finally got a. >> proper slap. >> down in the oval office. so we're. >> seeing jubilation. there from the kremlin as. to what transpired. and as keir pointed out. >> i heard. >> this senior trump officials say this over the weekend. they are considering immediately

halting aid to ukraine. they haven't. >> done it yet, but that is a topic of. >> conversation there. so let's get. your take as to what you. witnessed on friday. a fundamental. >> shift, frankly. >> i. >> heard from several diplomats and former u.s. >> and current u.s. intelligence and military officials. >> saying it seems like. this white house siding with moscow. >> yeah, i think. >> writ large. >> the most. >> interesting reveal of this meeting was basically that the. >> trump administration doesn't. >> really have much of. >> a plan. i think that. you know. >> trump has. >> for peace in ukraine. >> trump had, of course. >> campaigned on a quick solution. >> to the. >> problem by. pressuring both. >> sides, both russia and ukraine. and what. >> we are seeing. >> is that he is pressuring one side more than the other. i mean, it's. it's probably it's a natural reaction. i mean, of the

two of the two sides that he was going to pressure, you know, russia and ukraine, ukraine is the easier one. and i think. all the fireworks. >> over this might. >> might simply. >> disguise that that. is what is happening. there are a lot of conversations. it's true that putin isn't making any public comments right now, but one thing we did see from the meeting was that trump. trump said that he is talking to putin. he's talking to him quite a lot. we're not getting any. >> reading readouts. >> about it. we really don't have any. >> insight into what's going on. >> but it doesn't look like there are any concessions or or there might be concessions, but there don't seem to be any pressures or pressure on russia. so for. >> now. >> yeah. >> it's looks. >> pretty one sided. and that is the direction of. >> things david ignatius suggested earlier. and i'm curious your take on this, that a month from now we may be looking back on this as just one step in the process. do you do you sense that that donald trump

is just winging it right now, that this is like, you know, the opening pages of the art of the deal, walk into your office and just see what happens. and, and keep keep moving until you get a deal. >> i think. >> that. >> yes. >> i think there will be attempts. >> i don't think that, you. >> know, this is not the first time. >> that zelensky has, you know, annoyed. >> some american. government officials asking for more aid. >> i mean. >> he that's what he does. >> he they they need aid in order to fight this war. >> i think. >> that that will continue. but but i don't think that i don't think that he'll be nearly as. successful as last time. but yeah, i don't think he really. >> has. much choice. >> except to. >> come back. >> i don't think that, as i. >> said. >> before, i don't i don't think that. trump is going to find this easy because i think he's

gone into. >> all this thinking. >> that this is a lot easier than it really is. i think he's underestimated. >> the difficulty of making. a deal with the russians. >> and what's. >> more, this is not like a real estate deal. this is not. a situation where. >> both sides feel some loss because. >> they have to pay something a little bit more. >> than they expected. >> this is a this is where. >> both sides. >> feel very. >> deeply and. >> aggrieved at many dead and war crimes. and, you know, whatever atrocities that, you know. >> we all have in our heads. and it's. >> it's going to be it's going to be very difficult. >> and i think. >> that. >> the his short term solution right now. >> is. >> to simply pressure the weaker side. all right. wall street journal. >> reporter alan carlson, thank you so much. his latest piece for the journal is available online now. >> and coming up, the war in ukraine found its way into last night's oscar ceremony just a little bit. we'll show you what

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>> good night. >> yeah. that's great. yeah, that's. >> great news. >> two wins already. >> i guess. americans are excited to see somebody finally. >> stand. >> up to a. powerful russian. >> that was oscars host conan o'brien during last night's 97th academy awards, the only time he weighed in on politics during the show, linking the fm honora to what happened in the oval office on friday. with us to talk about honora's big night is founding partner of poc and former editor of the hollywood reporter, matthew belloni. he attended the oscars last night at the dolby theater in los angeles. >> matthew, i guess we should first ask, have you gotten any sleep? it's very little.

>> but i did. >> leave the party. >> a lot earlier. >> than most people. they're still going on. >> yeah. >> i'm sure. >> they are. talk about a night of surprises. >> absolutely. i mean, going into this oscars, it was really an open race. we were talking about any of 4 or 5 movies getting big oscars, and then it ended up a sweep. we had honora with five wins and mikey madison beating demi moore in the best actress race. that was a big surprise. i think honora is the. $6 million little movie that most people did not think could go all the way to best picture, and it did. and way more. >> to be here. >> well, so tell us why, why, why did this why did this capture the hearts of the academy the way it did? >> you know, it's interesting. it is a movie with a lot of heart. it's a movie that makes you feel good at the end, and it's got emotion. academy members typically vote with emotion. what makes them feel

something? and this is a movie that from start to finish, it's got laughs. it's got drama. it's kind of a road movie. it's got a little bit of politics with the russia stuff. it's got a fantasy element. it's sort of a modern, very r-rated pretty woman. if you if you say and it's got all of that in one package, and it's the arrival of this independent filmmaker, sean baker, who's been around a long time but has never had this kind of mainstream or quasi mainstream success. and i think all of that put together, the academy found it irresistible. >> so. >> matthew, let's turn to the best actor win. >> for adrien brody. >> it was sort of seen as a more or. >> less a two. >> person race. brody or timothee chalamet. >> of course, was played. >> by bob dylan. is this both deserving? is this a sense of the academy simply saying, hey, you've got to. >> earn it. you're a little too young to win? >> i think so over the history of the academy, they've shown over and over again they're willing to give the top acting award to a younger actress. and

we saw that tonight with mikey madison in nora. but they're less willing to do that for a younger actor. and i think timothee chalamet at 29 years old, it was just the sense that it was a little too early for him also. adrien brody an unbelievable performance in that film. it really is a centerpiece performance. it's kind of ironic is that he was the youngest best actor winner when he won the first time, and that was more than 20 years ago. and now at 51, he's got his second oscar in two nominations. the first time that's happened where he's won, an actor has won two oscars after having been nominated only twice. >> happy to. >> see kieran. >> culkin win for best supporting actor for real pain. so matthew, give us your sense, big picture sense of the oscars themselves. how do you feel like. conan o'brien did as host. >> and what this moment means for the movie business? >> well, we'll see what the ratings are because we don't know yet. and there were some glitches with the hulu stream the oscars stream for the first time on hulu last night. usually

they're just on abc. i think conan did a great job in the room. lots of laughs. he really got people going at the very beginning. some funny bits, very apolitical. you guys played that one clip of the russia joke, but the words donald trump were not said by the host last night, and he really avoided politics, except for that one joke. and i think that's part of the reason why the academy hired him is they wanted an apolitical show. they are sick of becoming a punching bag on right wing media shows. and this was the show that he delivered. it was somewhat apolitical and very funny. >> coming up, we'll turn back to president trump's attacks on the leader of ukraine during friday's meeting inside theval office. full analysis of that moment straight ahead in our doctor box, moment straight ahead in our fourth hour there were many failed attempts to fix my teeth. i retouched all my wedding photos, and it was even affecting my health. i trusted you because you specialize in dental implants.

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will break down the speech and its impact at home and abroad. the joint address to congress. special coverage tomorrow at eight on msnbc. >> all of this can. >> be overwhelming. >> but it is important to. >> remember there are. >> still checks and balances. >> there's a lot being. >> thrown at. >> the american. >> people right now, and it is really. >> important to pay attention to it, but it is just as important to recognize how many of. >> those. >> things are getting announced. but they're not happening. >> at all, or at. >> least not yet. just try to. >> remember we. >> are. >> not. >> looking at the final score. we are still. >> in the. >> first quarter. keep your pads on. the game has just begun. >> welcome back. time now for a. >> look at some of the other. >> stories making. >> headlines this morning. >> the governor of south.

>> carolina declared. >> a. >> state of emergency as. >> wildfires in the. >> carolinas and georgia scorched thousands of acres and forced people to flee their homes. >> more than 175. >> fires burning in south carolina were fueled. >> by. unusually dry. >> conditions and. gusty winds. those conditions are expected. to fade as a. cold front moves in, and brings some much needed rain later in the week. some terrifying images there on your screen. >> elsewhere. >> a private company has. >> successfully landed a probe. >> on the moon for the first time. >> firefly aerospace. blue ghost. lander touched down. >> on the lunar surface. early yesterday morning. launched in. >> mid january. >> the lander carried ten experiments to the moon for nas, and citigroup. >> accidentally credited a. client's account with $81 trillion. >> when it meant to only send $280. a bit of a rounding error.

the payment. >> was. >> missed by two employees. >> but caught. >> 90 minutes after it was posted and then reversed several. >> hours later. >> the massive. transfer far exceeds the bank's stock market value of 150 billion. no funds left the bank, which is calling the. >> error a near miss. >> i deem. >> it a missed opportunity. >> still ahead. >> here. >> the latest. >> on the trump. administration's efforts. >> to shake up the federal workforce. >> an nbc's. >> morgan radford speaks. >> with five. >> young federal employees who. >> were fired. >> in the last month. plus a postscript of sorts. >> to the. >> classified documents. >> case against donald trump. >> the boxes of secret files. >> at the heart. >> of the indictment. >> are back. >> in the president's hands. we'll explain why. >> just ahead. >> here on morning joe. >> buy more and save more. lumber liquidators cuts out the middleman for absolute low prices. >> laminate flooring as low. >> as. >> $0.89 a square foot.

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>> once this. entire meeting? >> no. in this entire meeting. >> have you. said thank you? >> i think every american

family. i thank president biden and both ■parties. i'm very thankful to american people. thank you. your team. congress. i'd like to thank america and our partners for the support. and i'm very grateful to all americans. we deeply appreciate that. ukraine and america have stood side by side. thank you so much. mr. president, thank you for invitation. so thank you very much. >> you got to be more thankful because let me tell you, you don't have the cards with us. you have the cards, but without us, you don't have any cards. >> i mean, he. >> could just. >> carry around a boom box with andrew gold's. thank you for being a friend. that's all he's been doing is he's been saying thank you, america. thank you america. thank you america. thank you america. very not thankful enough, i guess. i don't know. >> just looking for a way to figure out that plan. welcome to the fourth hour of morning joe.

the fallout continues from friday's contentious oval office meeting between president donald trump, vice president jd vance and ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky. >> can i ask you, jonathan lemire, what there's a question right now on whether that was staged or not, whether they had planned to sort of ambush zelensky in that, in that press avail or not. and i've got to say, the most compelling suggestion that it was always planned was the way that jd vance just jumped into the middle of the fray and started yelling at him. only because i've never i've never i've never seen donald trump. and we've known donald trump a long time. you know, if you've ever known donald trump to, like, stage an event where somebody just jumps in and starts yelling without donald trump saying, go ahead. >> it's also customary both with trump. >> or. >> frankly, any other president in the oval office. >> the president's only person

who speaks like that's what's so unusual about this. >> is that suddenly vance. found himself. wanting to jump in there. so, yes, we've talked to people who say, if. >> not completely choreographed, but. >> there are some talking points that the trump people. wanted to. >> get out. >> jd vance happy to supply them. let's get now the. >> latest from nbc news senior. >> white house correspondent garrett hake. >> mr. president, where do. things stand between you and zelensky? >> sir, president trump not responding sunday. >> night as he returned. >> to. >> the. >> white house. after his oval. >> office clash with ukraine's president. zelensky echoed around the world. negotiations with ukraine on a deal to share the. embattled country's mineral wealth as a first step towards a peace deal, now stalled, white house sources say after friday's meeting devolved into a diplomatic disaster. >> the war. >> not in a good position. you don't have the cards right now with us. you start. >> having cards. >> cards right now. >> have you. >> said thank. >> you once. >> this entire meeting. trump's team asking zelensky to leave the white house. spending the

weekend in london at an emergency summit with european leaders. the british prime minister announcing a multi-billion dollar aid package. for ukraine. >> and working. >> to patch up ukraine's frayed alliance with the us. >> nobody wanted to see what happened last friday, but i do not accept that the us is an unreliable ally. >> while king charles invited zelenskyy for a rare. meeting at his. >> country home. trump's team casting blame on zelensky. >> he found. >> every opportunity. >> to. >> try to ukraine on every issue. >> and. >> all we're. >> trying to do. >> here. >> is figure out whether a peace is possible. >> while offering little hope. >> for restarting talks. >> look, i don't. >> know that we can get. >> both sides to. >> the. >> table at. >> this point. >> a kremlin spokesman. >> saying this. >> morning that the oval office showdown proved zelenskyy doesn't want peace. democrats blasting both trump and vice president vance, saying they escalated the exchange. >> the white house has become an arm of the kremlin. >> vance in vermont this weekend, greeted by protesters

while on a ski trip with his family. this morning. >> zelensky sharing. >> a. >> video saying we understand the importance of america and quote, there hasn't been a single day when we haven't felt grateful for the us's support. after saying yesterday that he's ready to sign a minerals deal and believes the relationship can be salvaged. >> all right. joining us now, we have u.s. special correspondent for bbc news and the host of the rest is politics podcast. katty kay, former reporter for the wall street journal matthew brzezinski. he previously covered russia and ukraine for the paper, former national security council director for european affairs, retired u.s. army lieutenant colonel alexander vindman, and the president of the national action network and host of msnbc's politics nation. reverend al sharpton. >> good to have you, katty kay. much, much to obviously talk about and digest from everything that's happened since friday. there is word that the white

house does believe a minerals deal will still go through, that there will be a deal done. i just wanted, though, to talk to you as somebody who obviously knows britain very well about this past weekend and how it's remarkable in all the time. i've, as i said earlier, i visited london an awful lot post brexit and there was a real crisis of confidence, a lack of direction. i thought the images from london, from britain this weekend were stark and showed a very confident britain, a confident that really because of what happened on friday and because of what's been happening over the past couple of months, britain and a europe that understands what its purpose is and seems very motivated by it. talk about that. >> yeah, i think i think. >> london had a moment. >> this weekend. keir starmer

played last week very well, seemed to establish enough of a relationship. >> with donald trump. >> that after the. >> blow up on friday, it was keir. >> starmer who called donald. trump and called emmanuel. >> macron and then invited zelensky. to london and arranged. >> also when zelensky. asked for it. for this. >> meeting with the king, it wasn't quite, i don't think, a love. >> actually moment. >> for keir starmer. i don't think he has that kind of ego. he's a very low key kind of prime minister in that respect, and that may be why he's able to conduct these negotiations. the question for europeans going forward is, yes, they had a good weekend. they all got on the same page pretty much, although they're already kind of disputes about what was agreed in. londo. but europe realizes that it cannot replace the united states for ukraine. the ukrainians without american intelligence, american satellites, american joint operation commands has probably about six months in this war. >> and europe. >> can't move that fast. it has

galvanized the europeans. it has galvanized keir starmer to try to lead the europeans in this effort and act as a negotiator, the kind of caught between, you know, post-brexit britain and the united states. actually. >> keir starmer. >> finds himself in an enviable position in some ways because he can be that peace broker between the two sides. so let's. see how much the europeans can actually do. you know, europe's problem really. >> is. >> that it's not a country, it's a continent. and they have very different points of view, as we're already starting to see emerge out of this weekend. but but what. donald trump has done has rallied british public opinion behind keir starmer in a way that i found remarkable this weekend. and seeing keir starmer go out of his way to welcome and praise vladimir zelensky, walk out of downing street, point to the fact that there were crowds in the streets. i don't know if donald trump loved that or not, but he was going out of his way to say, look, you the way you were treated in the white. >> house on friday. >> is not the way you're going to be treated by europeans. >> going forward.

>> well. >> and, and. >> so moving to see the. images of people lining up on the street in london cheering zelensky's motorcade as it moved past, going to ten downing street, does it, katty, are you hearing reports that it does look like there's a possibility that keir starmer, emmanuel macron and zelensky will get together, try to come up with a deal that works for ukraine, for donald trump and the united states in in moving forward as an alliance. >> yeah, they're absolutely trying. that's what the weekend meeting was about. there's some disagreement already between the french and london about whether this one month temporary kind of ceasefire for air and sea is actually something that the brits are on board with. but, matthew, let me ask you this. one thing that i'm hearing here in washington is that some

republicans are saying up on capitol hill in the senate, look, we could get this back on track if the europeans can say to the white house that $300 billion in frozen assets, it will be used to buy american weapons, not to reconstruct ukraine, but to buy us weapons for the security of ukraine, and also the kind of zelensky and starmer now have to come back to washington and the europeans on bended knee saying, look, we're going to give you a win. we're going to give you a much bigger minerals deal. this is going to be the biggest mineral deal ever. and then perhaps they can get this back on track. i don't know if you're hearing that this could get back on track. and then what does that still mean in terms of guarantees for ukrainian security? >> well, i. >> think the question is, is there a risk that we overplay our hand? president trump told zelensky he holds no cards. but we're acting as if we do hold all the cards. and i'm not really sure that. >> that is. >> the case. i think, as you just mentioned. >> we're seeing.

>> remarkable things happen in europe. >> there is. >> that $300 billion that. potentially could be accessed to help ukraine if the united states pulls out. and the one area, as you mentioned, that the europeans really cannot replace us. and this. >> would this. >> would really harm ukraine's war effort is satellites. ukrainians have been very, very, very successful at hitting high value, mobile, high value targets. the 300 s 400. these are the equivalent of the russian equivalent of our billion dollar patriot systems. that is happening because we're feeding them satellite data. they have thousands of satellite phones which we've sent them. and we're these are all in the front line being deployed. if we were to unplug, as you mentioned, that satellite network, that would be. incredibly difficult. also, we have to remember they're using

starlink, which elon musk gave them for free. and i think he's behaving somewhat incomprehensibly and reprehensibly in my opinion these days. but he deserves credit for giving them that. if. >> those. >> things are, they can fight. but they will, they will, they will, they will lose faster. and ukraine's job has never been to win. it's been to lose. >> very. >> very slowly and bleed the russians to death. so i don't know if six months they may. be able to last a year, but we do not hold actually all the cards in this, i don't think. >> alex, there seem to be two stories here. one is the fate of ukraine, and one is the fate of the european american alliance in the context. of a new american russian alliance. how do you see this in terms of the kind of broader reshuffling of where america sees itself right now, and who it wants to ally with? >> first of. >> all, let me say so. thank you. >> so very. >> very much. >> for having.

>> me on the show. we need to start with a moment. i want to. >> make sure. >> it's enough gratitude. >> at the beginning. if we need to start with. >> a moment. >> i'm not wearing. >> a. >> tie either. >> yes, we. >> actually do need to start with a moment of levity because it is so dark. what occurred over the course of the past week was. us really offered crystal clarity on what kind of trump. administration foreign policy approach. >> we're. >> going to have. >> and it's a little bit of dark humor, because i think the week. >> starting with the un. vote in which. >> we voted against. >> ukraine. >> voted with russia. >> and voted against. >> our allies, voted. >> with north korea, was was was a moment. >> of clarity itself. >> but the white house meeting. itself kind of indicated a pretty firm break, that. >> the us is. >> not a reliable partner going forward. i think we may be deceiving ourselves. >> a. >> little bit, like the title of my book is we deceive ourselves about russia and betrayed ukraine. ukraine. i think we may be deceiving ourselves a little bit about where where donald trump wants to go. >> but what. >> does he want with the

relationship with russia? we saw the russians this weekend. we saw russian state media saying, okay, we are now in a triangle. china, russia, the united states. what is it? is it is it minerals deals? is it energy deals? is it purely economic? >> it's actually there's this. concept that putin has of us, basically. >> that there. >> are only three sovereign nations in the world. it's russia, it's. china and the us. everybody else is a small power and beholden to these other powers. so it's one of those rules of the jungle. the strong do what they can. and. and the, the, the rest endure what they must. this is the view that donald trump is proposing around the world. so i think the fact is. >> now there. >> is whether they're ready to do it as a as a firm break. they're now starting to think about their own internal european security structure without the us, without euro-atlantic agreement, the pacific is thinking in the same kinds of terms. >> and then. >> it's a return to really 19th century great power competition and a much, much darker world. that that world resulted in two

world wars before we baselined and came up with a pluralistic notion. it seems a little bit far fetched, but i think we see that the moment, this, this seminal moment unfolding last week, that people are starting to think in those terms, can they try to claw back some relationship with the us? maybe they're going to try it because it's really important to try, but it's unclear. >> and i think i mean, matthew, it's not just the ukrainians who are now thinking, can we claw back a relationship with the us? i had a conversation with a senior asian allied diplomat over the weekend who said, look, we may not like what's happening in the white house. we don't like what we saw in public on friday. we have no choice but to try to repair relationships with the united states. and that's the sort of heartbreak, i think, for america's smaller allies at the moment is they have no choice. the american security umbrella is just that big and just that strong and just that needed. >> well, if i were the leader. >> of taiwan. >> i would. be very. >> very what. >> if you were. >> the. >> leader of south korea or

japan? >> i would be looking at forming some sort of coalition together, and. >> i go. >> plays into what you said. we're, we're. >> we're returning. >> to the past here in that sense. but if. >> i were. >> the leader of small. >> nations, the baltics. >> oh my god, the baltics are so vulnerable because. do you think there's any chance that that that president trump will launch nuclear missiles at moscow if putin decides to go into estonia or latvia or nato? in my in my opinion, nato exists today in name only, and new alliances are going to have to replace it. and i do think that in europe is going to have to create something to replace nato, a coalition of the willing. you're going to have the same things in asia. and the this, in my opinion, is not going to make the world a safer place. we've had a system in place for 80 years. it's highly imperfect. it had sort of steam release valves

and little regional wars, proxy. >> wars. >> but it did keep the peace. if we go back to a system that led us to two world wars, world wars, there are inherent risks in that. and i'm not sure that the president may think he's making the world a safer place. he campaigned on that very platform, but i'm not sure that's the net effect of it. >> and jeremy, i guess that's the question. you know, we heard it earlier in the program from your colleague matthew on the wall street journal. is does donald trump have a plan? there's a massive reorganization going on at the moment of the united states and of the rest of the world under donald trump? does he have a clear plan for where it leads, and does it actually make the world a safer place? >> well, and again, well, the conclusion was that he's just trying to get a peace deal. and if he has some grand overarching strategy and i'm not i'm not saying this is being derogatory, even though there's a lot of. >> things. >> to be derogatory about,

obviously about what happened friday and over the past. i'm just saying generally and understanding how donald trump has operated throughout his life. and i'll talk to rev about this in a second. he doesn't have grand strategies. art of the deal. he shows up that morning, he picks up the phone, he calls, and he sees what happens. former reporter for the wall street journal, matthew brzezinski, thank you so much. and retired u.s. army lieutenant colonel alexander vindman, we thank you. >> thank you. >> alex, thank you. >> very new. >> book, the folly of realism how the west deceived itself about russia and betrayed ukraine. it's on sale now. and might i add, it's rather timely. >> yeah. >> very. >> very timely. so let's talk about you've known donald trump for a very long time. again, i'm making an observation here. obviously concerned, horrified by what happened on friday. but

just an observation of donald trump is he doesn't think 30 years ahead. he doesn't think 15 years ahead. again, he has he again. he's always said he shows up in the office, he makes phone calls. he sees what's going to happen that day. and what he wants right now is a peace deal. and he thinks he can do that. i guess by browbeating, browbeating zelensky when he really doesn't even know whether vladimir putin is going to agree to anything or not. >> no, i think he is, as you often say, a day trader. i mean, he goes day by day. what is his interest? i clearly, as i was watching that which embarrassed the country for the united states, for the president to be behaving like that in the oval office. but as i watched it, i came to the conclusion that i think you raised is that they staged it because i do not think

j.d. vance would have had the nerve to interrupt unless it was pre-scripted who is sitting in trump's presence that is, his vice president or cabinet member is going to break into him trying to get a peace deal. so obviously it was staged because trump sat back and let him do it, which meant that that he came in on cue. the question is, what? who did they do it for? were they playing to putin? they certainly weren't playing to the interests of a peace deal. they certainly weren't playing to the interests of the united states. i mean, if you look at the whole tape, trump started saying, you got this kind of deal for biden and this kind of deal from obama. he couldn't resist trying to attack everyone he could using this kind of back and forth with zelensky. and it was not only irresponsible in terms of our being viewed by the world. it was a real setback. >> well. and who was he playing for? i think multiple audiences, including base in the united

states that's increasingly isolationist, increasingly american first. i do want to say this though, john. what donald trump has said about nato and what the discussion about japan and south korea, there are a lot of things where donald trump has changed, you know, and gone to places that are politically the most advantageous for him, going from being a democrat to a republican, from being pro-choice to being pro-life. i could go down a very long list. i will say, though, the one through line for donald trump has been tariffs and america first, he was on larry king in 1987 and he was attacking nato, saying in 1987, saying that the united states was paying too much, a disproportionate share

to nato. he said that in 1987, he was also taking out full page ads in 1987. and this is what reminded me when he brought up japan and south korea, that japan was playing us for suckers, that they needed to defend themselves, europe needed to defend themselves, that the united states was being taken for a ride again, going all the way back to 1987. this is one thing, along with tariffs that he's been consistent on. he has. >> this has. >> been a through line. >> he's also. even some of his critics. >> give him. >> credit that. his urging has caused europe. >> to. spend more on defense, cannot contribute more towards what nato is doing. >> in some cases. more than what the united states is. >> doing. a percentage. but at. >> the same time. >> he's also repeatedly undermined the. very fabric of that alliance over and over again, including we've had. >> this. >> fear expressed a few. >> times just today. >> the.

>> belief that he wouldn't. >> uphold article. >> five, the mutual defense. >> pact, by the way, an 80 year framework that has allowed the united states to be safe, to be free and to be prosperous, an 80 year post war framework. >> that is undermined and frankly, even more than that. to your point. >> the entire. >> post-world war two order. >> 80 years in. >> the making felt very shaky friday afternoon after what we heard from him in the. >> oval office. >> where it feels like siding with. >> moscow coming up. as doge continues to make cuts to the federal workforce, we're going to hear from several employees whose lives have been upended by their terminations. nbc's morgan radford joins us with their stories next. plus, our next guest message to college seniors. life will not be what you think it will be, and will include more versions of yourself than you think possible. bestselling author brad meltzer joins us next to brad meltzer joins us next to explain. mornin♪ (woman) i have nash, a serious form of fatty liver disease that's scarring my liver.

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>> live shot of the white house just before. >> the bottom of the hour this monday morning, the. >> trump administration says the government. >> has returned the boxes of documents. >> confiscated during the search. >> of mar a lago. >> that was. for to. discover the classified. >> documents taken after. >> trump left office during. >> his first term. >> on friday, white house staffers were. >> seen. >> loading more than a dozen boxes. the precise contents of which are unknown, onto the back of air force one. it was not immediately clear whether those boxes included classified materials. in a statement. trump's communication director said the fbi was giving trump, quote, his property. back that was taken from his florida property during. >> that search a couple of. >> years ago. later, trump posted. >> on social. >> media that the department of. >> justice returned. >> the boxes, writing justice. >> finally won out. >> trump also claimed that the documents. >> would. >> be part of the trump presidential library. meanwhile, the trump administration.

>> is pressing forward. >> with its demand that every. federal worker. >> justify their. >> employment once. again. causing confusion. >> and. some resistance. >> nbc news. >> chief capitol. >> hill correspondent ryan. >> nobles brings us the latest. >> over the. >> weekend. >> millions of federal workers received a second. >> email demanding. five things they accomplished. >> in the last. >> week or risk. >> being fired. >> the emails. >> have been created by the. >> elon musk led department of. government efficiency and endorsed by president. >> donald trump. there was a lot of genius in sending it. >> but many agencies have. >> been giving their. >> employees conflicting. >> guidance on how to respond. >> guidance that. >> has still. >> not been. cleared up. while this weekend democrats warning that musk may turn to cutting benefits for americans. >> after he criticized social security. >> last week. >> social security is the biggest ponzi scheme of all time. >> senators quickly responding. >> no. >> i think what musk, the. >> wealthiest guy in the world, just. >> said is. >> totally outrageous. >> while the changes by musk's

team are still being felt, including at usaid, the agency that handles america's foreign aid, we're. an official. nick heinrich. wrote a memo saying the cuts will, quote, no. >> doubt. >> result in preventable death. destabilization and threats to national. security on a massive scale. he was. >> later placed on administrative leave. musk's next. target the department. >> of defense. >> the initial. >> review of the. >> pentagon's massive budget is expected. >> today. >> as protests. >> in response to the cuts. across government continue. >> we are rangers. >> thousands gathering. >> at national parks. >> across the country to express. >> their outrage. >> and in. >> red states nationwide, republicans continue. >> to face the heat from their constituents. in kansas, senator. >> roger marshall. ended a town hall. early to avoid a hostile crowd. >> remember. >> you are elected. >> from the whole state. i'm going to say. >> this one time. if you all. >> keep cutting me. >> off. >> if you're. >> rude with your band, i'm. >> going to leave.

>> wow. i got to say, i probably held, i don't know, 200 town hall meetings. i never, never said that to my audience. like that's crazy. >> there's some there've been some tough town halls. >> yeah, that you listen. yeah. and you learn. >> that's how you know, if you are doing the job that you're. which sent you to washington to do. joining us now, eugene daniels, who we are happy to announce is being named msnbc senior washington correspondent. eugene will also be a co-host on the weekend on msnbc, saturdays and sundays from 7 to 10 a.m. eastern, alongside msnbc's jonathan capehart. and another soon to be named co-host. congratulations. >> thank you, thank you. >> you guys put me. >> on tv all. >> the time. >> and so. >> now they just. >> stuck me there. >> so this is this is all your

fault. >> i'll take it. >> we'll take it. yeah. >> so tell us your reporting, especially on these cuts. >> yeah. i mean. >> i think the. >> thing that we've. >> heard over and over again from people, even people who support the cuts, is. that the. >> issue is the speed. >> at which. >> it's happening and the freezing that it does, and the. >> chilling effect that it has on the workforce. right. there are republicans for a long time. >> conservatives have. wanted to shrink the size. >> of government. but the. >> way that they wanted to do it, it seems, was much slower. >> than this. >> and to. >> feel like there had to be some planning involved. >> and that's what's. >> creating the issue. >> the chaos. >> and. >> the. >> confusion is the biggest issue. that that folks are having. and i will say. >> also. >> and probably most importantly, the thing that. elon musk has. >> said over. >> and over again. >> as. >> he's making these cuts is that he's finding this waste. >> fraud and abuse. and we're not seeing. >> actual evidence of. >> all of. >> the spending. >> that he's saying that is waste. >> fraud and abuse. it might be stuff that he. disagrees with or the president. disagrees with. the government should be doing. >> but that's not. >> those two things aren't the same. and that's. >> something that i'm.

>> even hearing. from republicans. >> and when you talk about the, you know, they. >> rolled back some. >> of these changes that also. >> impacts the way people are able. >> to do. >> their jobs, even if they get their jobs back. >> so it's over and over again. >> the chaos. >> is the. >> concerns that folks are having. >> all right. as doge continues to slash the federal workforce, there is still no official count of the total number of firings. let's bring in nbc news correspondent and news now anchor morgan radford. she spoke to several young federal employees who were fired in the last month. and what did they tell you? morgan. >> it's the chaos. >> exactly what. >> eugene just mentioned. the chaos is what is particularly stunning. >> and to be honest, a lot of them are still in disbelief. we interviewed five federal workers. >> from across the. country who agreed to speak on camera. they were all under the age of 35, and they were all in the very. >> beginning stages. >> of their careers. >> so for. >> a lot of them, though, what was interesting is. >> they said. >> the fight for their jobs. >> and for their. careers is. >> just getting started. >> for thousands. >> of. >> federal workers.

>> frustrated and confused. >> the memory of their firing. >> i was absolutely. >> devastated is still fresh. >> we were leaving work fully employed and coming back the next morning without a job. >> the terminations. >> part of a wave of. cutbacks mainly. >> hitting probationary employees. those who. >> have either. >> been hired. >> or promoted in the last 1 to 2 years. >> i really don't even feel. >> like i. >> got a chance to even. >> prove my worth. >> to the team. >> and while the trump administration hasn't. >> shared the. >> total number of. firings as of. >> august, more than. >> 200,000 federal workers. >> had been in their jobs. >> less than a year. >> i was. >> one of the thousands of federal workers terminated this weekend. >> 24 year old. >> victoria chigurh worked in medicare. >> and medicaid services. >> i was. >> only in my role for about six weeks. i hadn't even received a performance review yet, so it was just really disheartening to see performance issues cited as the reasons. and at this point, i know that's not a reflection of my performance or capabilities. that's what thousands of other people received as well. but it was it was really a sad moment. how has. >> this affected.

>> your day. >> to day life? >> what does this. >> mean for rent? for food? >> i'm really concerned about, like letting getting rid of my or my health. insurance no longer having that. i'm only 24 so i can potentially still get back on my parents insurance. >> i was. >> only here a month. >> my first. >> day was in january, so obviously i had to quit all. >> my little. part time gigs. >> and now. >> i have to rush back to those. >> part. >> time gigs just to try and put. >> a few. >> dollars in. >> my pocket. >> and now. >> the nation's largest federal employee. union is challenging many of these firings in court, calling them one of the most massive employment frauds. >> in the history. >> of this country. former usda employee lynn kummer believes his termination was illegal. >> i plan on appealing. i think there's. >> a general lack of. >> understanding of what federal. >> workers do for the. >> american public. >> i really. >> worry about. >> the future in. >> which the federal civil service has. >> been demonized. >> and we don't have. >> skilled workers in the federal. >> civil service. >> and things. >> start. to happen. >> like. >> our parents. >> and grandparents stopped getting their. >> social security.

>> checks, or veterans. >> stopped getting. >> health care that they need, that food. >> banks and. food pantries. >> don't have food. >> in them. >> a lot of people just think of like, white collar bureaucrats making all these decisions that they don't care about or that don't affect them. that's far. from the truth. these are nurses. these are park rangers. these aren't just people in dc buildings doing miscellaneous tasks. >> do you think that people. >> will notice. >> these cuts? >> absolutely. >> in terms. >> of the epa, i think people are going to see more notices that they'll have to boil their water. i think it's going to be detrimental to our environment. >> the white house. >> defending the terminations. >> citing what it calls a resounding mandate to streamline government, to. >> better. >> serve the needs of the american people. >> how do. >> you respond. >> to. >> people who say. >> look. >> this is what. america voted for? >> sure. i think that there. >> is a desire. >> to shrink. >> the size. >> of. >> the government. >> that's natural. >> when people feel like they're not receiving the services that

they're paying for with their taxes, but to just kind of eliminate. >> programs at. >> random and eliminate. >> employees at. >> random does. >> not achieve that goal. >> a dramatic. >> end for. >> thousands of federal employees. >> but these. >> young professionals. say this is just the beginning. >> has this turned you all. >> off from. >> public service? >> i think we need. >> it. >> now more than ever. >> i fully agree. >> we need it now more than ever. alison. it was also really interesting to hear almost every. >> single worker say. >> that they actually. understand efforts to. >> cut costs. >> or even just trim the. federal workforce. >> but they say that. >> the way. >> that it is happening. >> was just unnecessary, bizarre. >> and chaotic. >> we reached out to the white house for comment. >> but we. >> did not hear. >> back. >> by our deadline. >> right now, the white house again. sometimes on answers to these questions just refers you to somewhere else. what you'll find. nbc's morgan radford, thank you very much. >> well, what what what we. >> heard on this. >> yeah. thank you so much. and

what we've heard is what we heard earlier today from david fahrenthold is the white house sends them to the agencies, which sends them to dodge, which often. >> the white house. >> which often doesn't, doesn't have have the right information. i think one of the things, morgan, really quickly, one more one more point. and we saw this in town hall meetings. veterans are upset that veterans are being fired, that people you even hear this on fox, that 20 year veterans who've served this country who went to work at the pentagon just getting fired, many. >> of them who voted. >> for trump. >> to be clear. >> we're talking about 2 million people in the. >> federal workforce, not. >> including postal workers. >> not including military. >> we saw the. >> numbers by which donald trump. >> won the popular vote. these are people who. >> voted for him. but they thought, like. >> so many latinos. >> who i talked to about deportation, immigration, that it wouldn't happen to them, that they were somehow exempt from the types of actions that they had voted for.

>> right. >> all right, morgan, thank you. so in a new book, our next guest is asking this in today's world, where cruelty and venom have become sport, how do you make magic and find empathy? in his viral 2024 commencement address at the university of michigan? new york times bestselling author brad meltzer explored that question. >> as you. >> go through life, every person. >> you encounter is battling something you. can't see. the solution is switching places and feeling empathy. >> as the saying. >> goes, one day someone is going to hug you. >> so tight. >> that all of. >> your broken pieces. >> will fit back together. the world needs more empathy, more humility, and certainly more decency. if you really want to shock the world, unleash your kindness. that's a. >> completely naive. >> idea, but it's an idea worth fighting for.

>> the person. >> who thinks they're the smartest. >> in the room. i promise. >> you, is. >> not the smartest. >> in the room. >> that's just the one with the most fragile. >> ego. >> the most. >> sophisticated and. >> intelligent people. >> i know are the. >> ones willing to challenge their thinking and admit there's. >> more to learn. >> and brad joins us now. his new book, based on that commencement address, is entitled make magic the book of inspiration you didn't know you needed, and good to have you back on. >> and i will tell you, brad, when you gave that speech, your own son didn't know he needed to hear that speech. as you say at the beginning of the book, your son was like, really? we don't get tom brady, we get you. i think the exact words he said was, that's like a 13th seed winning the ncaa tournament. well, we're glad you got to do it. i want to, i want to there's something that you say in the book that i, i love because, you know, sometimes the best answer

to disinformation is just simple truth. and sometimes the best response to hatred is kindness. and you say, if you really want to shock the world, unleash your kindness. explain. >> yeah. thank you joe. so the speech is all about magic. the thing you can't explain because there are some. >> things we can't explain. >> and there are. if you talk to. >> magicians. >> there are. four types of. >> magic tricks. one, you. >> make something appear. >> two. >> you make something disappear. three, you make two things switch places. >> and four. >> you take. >> one thing and you. >> turn it into something else. the hardest trick of all. >> transformation. but it's the third. >> trick you're talking about. >> and when you want to take one thing and turn it into something else, that's what empathy is, because that's what it does, right? you go into someone else's shoes, trying to look through their eyes, and when you see it today, i'll. >> say it this way. >> when i was 13 years old, my family moved to florida. my dad lost his job, and.

>> we were. >> forced to live. >> with my. >> grandmother. >> and we had no money. >> and it was my mom, my. >> dad. >> my sister, myself, all of us living with my two grandparents, six of us in a one bedroom apartment, and everyone at that point in the. >> condo. >> they were trying to kick us out. they were like, there's. >> too. >> many people in a room. but this one woman across the hall said, you know what, take. >> my apartment. >> she said to us. she moved in with a relative. she gave. >> the apartment to my family. >> so we could have some comfort so we wouldn't be evicted. and i remember her name is mercy. but as a kid, i always. heard her name as mercy. >> and make no mistake, mercy. >> is what she showed my family. but today, cruelty and venom harshly judging. >> those we. >> disagree with that's become. sport in our culture, where cruelty and venom aren't proof of strength. >> they are signs of weakness and petty insecurity. >> what takes strength, as you just said. is showing. >> kindness and putting yourself in someone else's shoes and showing. >> some empathy. >> yeah. >> brad, as a minister, i can relate to the whole concept of

believing and doing something magic that does not appear to be apparent to everyone else. how do you and what do you do through this book? to give people the idea that there is magic within them? because all of the people that we look at and say, that's magical, most people don't think they could do things like that. the thing i like about your book is you're trying to say to every average person, there's some magic possibilities. >> well, these are things we've all experienced, right? we've all had that moment. and it's not easy, right? our studies show that when we get too much bad news, our brains get overwhelmed. that's why we change the channel. that's why we swipe to a new app. that's why we shut down. do not shut down. >> we need. >> you right now. if you shut down, we're in trouble. i can tell you. when i was, i spent four. years scooping ice cream at the haagen-dazs. >> in the aventura mall. >> and i remember this woman came up one time, and she starts snapping her fingers at me, saying, you got to serve me right now. and i said, ma'am, i'll be right with you. she said, no, you got to serve me

now. and i said, you know what, ma'am? >> you're being rude. >> i'm not going to serve you. and she said, you're going to be working at this miserable ice cream store for the rest of your miserable life. and i said, ma'am, if i am working. >> here for the. >> rest of my miserable life, you're still never getting. >> any ice cream. >> and i. >> used to laugh at that. >> story. >> right, reverend? i used to laugh and say, you know what? you know. that didn't. bother me. >> but it did. >> bother me. >> it made me feel small. my dad struggled with money. his whole life made me feel like i was going to struggle, like. >> my dad struggled. >> and what i realized what? you have to make it disappear. the second. >> trick in the. >> book is your fear. but you shouldn't make it disappear. write the book. >> this book is all. >> about magic and how you actually do it. what you have to do is use that fear. you got to harness it. don't vanquish your critic critics. prove them wrong. and that's what we have to do right now. that's what people have to do right now, is we're all scared. look at that. that segment you ran before about those workers, about those veterans losing their jobs. but we got to harness those fears and those things we're terrified of and again, not vanquish our

critics. prove them wrong. >> so, brad, all. >> of. >> us fall short on empathy sometimes. what is something we can do to. catch ourselves and do what you're saying and make one thing another thing? >> yeah. so here's the key. thing is, if you look. >> at the studies. >> empathy is actually malleable. that's the thing they found. so if you want more empathy, the trick is you just got to want to have more empathy in your life. as proof of that, think of it's why college students in your first year of college, you make so many new friends. why? because you tell yourself you want so many new friends. you want to be open to the universe and what we have to do now. it's so easy to shut ourselves down and say, i'm tired of this nonsense, right? you've seen what's happened after the election. you see what happens after that? that meeting in the white house. we all look at that and we all go, oh my gosh, i'm disgusted that a president is behaving like that. i'm disgusted that our country looks like this right now. how can we be so unempathetic to what's going on in the world? but again, just being mad

doesn't do it. you got to be open. and that's the hardest trick of all. but i got to tell you, it's a trick worth doing. and that's what this whole book is about. >> and in fact, the last. >> trick in the book is the one. >> you're. >> asking about, right? it's the final trick is how do you take one. thing and turn it into something else? and that's transformation. and to me, you know, the people who always say and think they're the smartest in the room, as. >> you. >> heard, that's not the smartest in the room. that's the person with the most fragile ego. that's what we're looking at right now in our politicians. right? what we have to do, and the most sophisticated people that i know are the ones who know that there's always more to learn. there's always more that you can improve upon. the only immutable fact is we should never be immutable. that's a lesson i want for my kids. that's what make magic is a book is all about is showing people that it's not magic. but there's things that we want so badly. they're all within our power. >> the new book, make magic the book of inspiration you didn't know you needed, goes on sale tomorrow. new york times best

selling author brad meltzer. thank you. great timing. good to have you on this morning. and eugene daniels, before you go, what are you looking at today? >> you know. >> mostly i'm. >> kind of seeing what roll. >> out. >> the white house is going to do about tomorrow. right. >> we have. >> this this joint address to congress from donald trump. how much he's going to talk about doj's how what's he going to talk about immigration? >> what's the path. >> that he's going to. >> talk about about getting eggs. egg prices lower? i think that's where my head is as we get into the. >> week starting out. >> all right. eugene daniels, thank you. we look forward to you coming on board as an msnbc senior washington correspondent and co-host of msnbc's the weekend and the bbc's katty kay. thank you, as well as always. and still ahead, grammy nominated singer tori amos will join us in studio with a look at her new children's book, as well as her new album. morning joe will be right back.

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>> call 877 cash. now to get a $100 gift card for a free quote. >> there is a. lot going on tonight. you've been in these rooms. how are you digesting it and how do you think the world is digesting what trump is saying? what are people saying to you in new jersey about doge and what they're seeing musk and his team do here? >> what are. >> the global politics for some of these leaders, and why do you see them stating the opposite of what the united states president has stated? >> each week, veteran lawyers andrew. weissman and mary mccord break down the latest developments inside the trump administration's department of justice. >> the administration doesn't

necessarily want to be questioned. on any of its policy. >> main justice. new episodes drop every tuesday. >> silent all these years, go by. will i still be waiting for somebody else to understand? >> that's the smash hit silent all these years, from the 1991 debut studio album by tori amos. fast forward to today, and the talented singer songwriter is debuting her first children's book, inspired by her love of music. entitled tori and the muses, the message encourages kids to put down social media and find a place where they can be creative without fear of judgment. and the grammy nominated, multi-platinum singer songwriter and new york times bestselling author joins us now. congratulations. >> thank you. >> thanks for having me. this has a soundtrack to go with it. >> yes. >> it's just. >> come out. i love the message. tell us about it. it's about

fitting in, right? >> yeah, well. >> tori has an argument with. >> her father, little tori. >> she's about eight. >> tori in the book. tori? >> yes. and he wants her to play. >> her boring. >> music homework for her recital. and she wants to play. what she wants. >> to. >> play and what the muses want her to play. and he says they don't exist. they're make believe, and they get you into a lot of trouble. play these assignments by the time i get back. so they have a bit of a riff, and then he goes and her 11 muses. that she's. >> been. hearing since. >> she can remember show up at her kitchen door. and then the journey begins. >> and tell us why you decided to take on this project. >> well, i thanked the fairies and the muses in my liner notes. >> i didn't believe. >> anybody read liner notes in my albums. >> and the head of. penguin books. >> read them. >> and gave me a call and said, do. >> you want to write a book about your relationship with your muses.

>> and the fairies? >> so there you go. >> and it's such an important message right now for our children, because there are not. yeah. you know, i my parents thought i was very strange, and they were right, but i was in my head like i'd go in my room, i'd imagine. i mean, it's just like created things, social media. and that's part of your message. you don't hear the muses, you don't, you know, you don't live in this create this wonderful, imaginative world if you're just looking at a phone. right. >> that's right. and we learn. through the. >> story with. >> her friends that blake, one of her friends, his muses are insects. and there's a song that goes along with it called insect ballet that's on the soundtrack to the book that you find. you can stream and find them. and then her friend anna.

ingredients are her muses, and. >> they pop. >> off the shelf at the family's market stall. so she's. >> finding how different. people discover. >> their muses. >> and then, of course, she has to get. >> home to dad. >> and she. >> hasn't practiced those recital pieces. and that's the final denouement. of the book. we'll see what happens. >> well, it's spoil it here, but. >> that's part of it, right? >> each one part of this message. >> here is not. >> just about music, but about finding your own path, whatever it might be. >> that's right. >> and that i. >> believe we all. >> have muses, but. >> they appear. >> differently to each of us. it's not as if one person can have the cornucopia and access to inspiration. we all can. and but it. appears differently, i believe, to each of us. and some people have a little bit of a tricky time finding them. >> yeah. tori, is it also about accepting the fact that you're not doing something unusual when

you start hearing your muses? i started preaching as a little boy in the church of god in christ, and people thought, what is this boy preaching? but i could hear in my own inner voice, this is what i wanted to do, is the book to give kids confidence. i'm going to give my grandson this marcus. the confidence of going by what you hear in your inner voice. >> absolutely. >> and i would love. >> to hear. >> you read that with your grandson. >> oh, that's nice. >> because i think it's the sharing of the grown up with the. child sharing it. there's an exchange to be made with us and them, and our inner child is exactly like you. >> absolutely. the new children's book, tori and the muses goes on sale tomorrow. the accompanying soundtrack to the book is available to stream now. new york times bestselling author and grammy nominated singer songwriter tori amos. thank you so much for coming on the show this morning. and that does it for us this morning. ana

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