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1-833-735-4495. >> or visit homeserve. com. >> hi there everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. what took decades to build and is the envy of the world. a network of alliances that has kept the united states safe after world war two is today, right now, shakier than at any other point, all because of the trump administration. news breaking today of extraordinary discussions that weeks or months ago would have been unthinkable. nbc news has exclusive reporting that some of the united states closest allies are talking about scaling back their intelligence sharing. relationship with the united states. >> that includes. >> the uk, australia, canada and new zealand. it's also known as the five eyes alliance, but. >> it also. >> includes israel and saudi arabia, who are having these conversations. and it's because, quote, concerns about safeguarding foreign assets whose identities could

inadvertently. be revealed, one western. government official tells nbc news this, quote, there are serious discussions going on about what. information can be shared with. >> the u.s. >> the five eyes have always worked on the premise that we don't spy on each other. i don't think that's reliable anymore. tulsi gabbard. >> and. >> these other characters. >> i don't. >> think we can have any degree of normalcy in. >> the. >> relationship that's right now where we are, and i don't see any way that changes. so that's what's happening behind the scenes out in the open today. our european allies held another emergency meeting to try to figure out how to prepare for a future without the united states as a reliable ally. nbc news confirmed earlier reporting that there are ongoing talks happening between around 20 countries, mostly european countries, interested in contributing to what they call a coalition of the willing to support ukraine. it is, of course, a response and a reaction to the events over the last week. the halting of arms

shipments to ukraine, the pause in intelligence sharing with our ally ukraine, and the. >> ambush of our ally. >> whose war against vladimir. >> putin had once. >> united the west. and in the days after that. >> meeting. >> the attacks on zelenskyy himself. now, politico. >> is. >> reporting this quote for senior members of donald trump's entourage, have held secret discussions with some of kiev's top political. >> opponents to. >> vladimir zelensky, just as washington aligns with moscow in seeking to lever the ukrainian president out of his job. those discussions center on whether ukraine could hold quick presidential elections. >> these are being. >> delayed in line with the country's constitution because ukraine remains under martial law. critics of holding elections say they could be. >> chaotic and. >> play into russia's hands. with so many potential voters serving on the front lines or living abroad. >> as refugees. >> and news breaking. just a few minutes ago, president zelensky posted on x. >> that ukrainian. >> officials will meet with his.

>> american partners. >> during a scheduled meeting in saudi arabia on monday. president zelenskyy says this, quote, ukraine is most interested in peace. america's allies realigning for a world without american leadership as the trump administration takes actions favorable to russia. this is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. nbc news national security correspondent courtney qb, whose byline on that reporting we read from. also joining us, former cia director, now senior national security analyst john brennan is here. courtney, take me through what you're reporting. >> yeah. so we have a couple of stories that deal with all of this. one is on some discussions that the trump administration. >> is having. about the future. partnership with nato. so we have seen many of these. >> nato. >> countries, the european. >> union countries. >> they are meeting. >> talking about. >> the future for ukraine, talking about the future for defense of europe. and for the first time, they are now talking about it in a way where the

united states doesn't play as big of a role. will the trump administration is also doing the same. they are now considering some major changes to the nato, their nato relationship. that would include potentially prioritizing the members or the nations who spend a certain amount of their gdp on defense. now, the nato right now, nato members are expected to spend 2% of their gdp on defense. the trump administration has now been calling for that to be increased to 5%. nicole, of course, the u.s. doesn't spend 5%. they're right around 3.9. but the trump administration is now calling on all members to increase their their defense spending as part of their gdp. now, according to the officials who we spoke with, the trump administration is considering pulling troops back from some of the countries that do not spend as much and even calibrating some of the exercises that the u.s. is involved in. so not participating in exercises with countries that don't spend as much on defense as some of the other allies. of course, this

would be a huge change to how the united states has dealt with the nato alliance historically, for decades since the washington treaty was signed, and it opens up the possibility that the united states would not be there to defend in the case. article five is invoked. that is, of course, if one nato member is attacked, all nato members are attacked, and they have the option to respond for their defense. that's one of our stories. another one is on intelligence, as you were just saying, some of the united states closest allies and intelligence sharing allies are now having discussions and concerns about how the united states is clearly moving closer to russia. the trump administration, with their language, with some of the actions, seem to be trying to have better relations with moscow. normalization, essentially, of relations that is causing concern among intelligence allies and intelligence officials who are now questioning whether sharing some of the most sensitive information with the united states could potentially

compromise foreign assets. of course, those are individuals responsible for gathering intelligence all around the world. it's one of the most sacrosanct parts of intelligence. gathering of the intelligence world is keeping their identities and keeping those individuals safe. some of these allies are now concerned that they cannot rely on the united states to do that. >> nicole. courtney, can you just sort of, with. >> all of. >> your knowledge of that building behind you, just put into context how significant a shift this would be for not just the military. >> but the entire national security apparatus? >> i mean, it i don't know of a shift that would be more significant from a military perspective than this would be if, in fact, the united states really pulls back from nato, you know, and really decreases support for nato. think about it. the united states has troops throughout all, i think, all of

these nato countries, but if not all, most of these nato countries and in some cases thousands of troops that they have combatant command headquarters there, they conduct exercises with these allies week after week, year after year. the united states does rotations of brigades into europe as part of this big deterrence initiative, not having the close relationship, the working relationship on a military to military relationship with nato and with these partners would be one of the biggest departures for the united states military that we've seen in decades. nicole. >> director brennan, let's take the. two pieces of reporting separately. and let's start with courtney's. >> second piece of reporting. this was a question. >> i've been asking on. >> and off of television for. >> the better part of nine months. what would the impact be to the intelligence sharing agreements if trump were to seem to align with putin?

>> well, he's. >> he's as always, he's ten steps ahead of where everyone thinks the trump story is going to go, and he's publicly. >> aligning with putin. he's castigating. >> america's ally. >> in the oval office and publicly saying the things that. putin would. say had. >> he been sitting on that couch. >> next. >> to j.d. vance. i wonder. >> what you make of. >> how much of the discussions about. >> stopping the. >> the flow of intelligence among our. allies is about what they're saying it's. >> about, and how much. >> of it is about all of this. >> being shared with russia. >> this is. >> also damaging and. >> dangerous for. >> u.s. >> national security interests. nicole. >> it is unsurprising that our partners. >> and allies. >> around the world, especially in europe. >> are now reevaluating what it is. >> they. >> want to do in terms. >> of sharing. >> information and intelligence. >> with the us. >> the strength. >> of the. >> us intelligence. >> community over. >> the course of many. >> decades is has. >> been a result of.

>> all of those. >> relationships that we've. >> forged around the globe, with intelligence. >> and. >> security services. >> as good and as. >> big as. >> u.s. intelligence. >> is. >> we rely. >> heavily on. >> these other countries. >> and these services in order to provide. >> us the type. >> of. >> access and. >> information that. >> we need. >> because we really need. >> to. >> have them. they have some. >> unique accesses and presence. as courtney. >> said, it's. >> not just the concerns about the identities. >> of their human sources that's. >> absolutely critical to them. >> but it's also some of their technical collection. >> systems. >> and the. >> fact that the. >> trump administration now is. >> cozying up to russia, they. >> really have. >> to ask. >> themselves. >> how can they. >> trust the united states. >> to share with the united states intelligence. >> agencies the. >> most sensitive information that. >> they have in intelligence that they gather. >> because it could be compromised as a result of trump's. >> whims to direct the heads. >> of their intel, the intelligence agencies. >> to share information. >> maybe he wants to. >> give putin, you know, some type of insight into why. >> we know certain. >> things about what's going on inside of ukraine.

>> or other places. >> so, again, i can see that this is going to be a. snowballing effect as. >> more and more. >> services around the globe ask themselves. how can they rely on the us in terms of sharing those secrets with us? >> can you also speak to the first piece of reporting about? >> i mean, and i always think it's important when you talk. >> about nato. >> because i didn't know this until i went to work in government. >> and i obviously. >> worked in government on nine. >> over 11. >> but the only country that's. actually to put it in terms that trump. >> relates to taking a. >> withdrawal from. >> the article five commitment, is. >> the. >> united states of america. >> article five says if. >> any of your allies are attacked, you. >> will defend them. >> we're the only ones that have. >> cashed that out. but what does it mean that he doesn't. >> want to affirm that commitment? >> it means a lot. the fact that the united states has been basically the leader of nato over many decades. it allows us to help to orchestrate the various militaries in the nato

constellation, to make sure that there's going to be the coordination, the cooperation, to try to maximize and optimize the capabilities that we have. and so i'm so glad that nato countries are now increasing their defense spending and investment. that's certainly necessary. but again, the united states really derives such benefit from having these countries and the militaries of these countries be coordinating with us so that in the event that there's going to be some type of challenge, you know, whether it be from russia or somewhere else, they were able to respond very quickly. and that coordination that takes place across the nato community is so critically important to ensuring that we're going to be it's an effective alliance, which really has been the case for generations. and again, what trump is doing right now is upending many, many years of developing this the relationships, the trust, the capabilities that exist, that nato has been the strongest and most powerful alliance in the world. and i think we're seeing what putin has has long hoped

that nato would be diminished, that nato's capabilities would be decreased. and i never thought it would be the united states that would be the one taking the lead in doing that. >> there is. >> a an effort. >> i guess, on the part of the white house. >> to make. >> this specifically. >> and exclusively about ukraine and putin. but let me show you. >> what senator michael bennet. >> had to say about. >> how china is. is. taking in all this information and all of these real jolts to america's role. >> in the world. >> so my colleagues who say. >> it doesn't matter. >> what the president says, that it's only. the outcome that matters. be patient about this great negotiator who learned everything at the heels of mr. cohen while he was doing commercial real estate. >> in new york. >> some of us are worried about.

>> it because. words do matter. especially the. >> words that. >> the president utters. could you imagine. >> anybody on this floor defending a president who said that taiwan had invaded china when china had invaded taiwan? that would be ridiculous. >> that would. >> be absurd. >> and that is the situation that we face today. >> i actually would like mr. bennett to meet speaker johnson, because i think that is absolutely conceivable. and we should put it on our bingo cards today. so we don't have to say i didn't have that on my bingo card. but the. >> point is. >> this the complete public embrace. of all of putin's talking points. >> and all. >> of the public propaganda of the russian state in the public interactions with zelensky. is an outlier the world over. what in your mind. explains it and

where could it be heading? >> oh boy. you know, this i think, is the in keeping with the trend that we've seen with donald trump in the first term, thankfully, we had some real patriots who were trying to restrain him from going off the rails and doing some of these things, but clearly now he is dismantling the executive branch of the federal government. he is neutering, neutralizing the capabilities that we have domestically as well as our role internationally. what he is trying to accomplish, i mean, he looks at the world through this private sector. trump incorporated prism. he doesn't understand just how important our global role is to our national security, our prosperity, our health as a nation. and as he continues to dismantle all these various pieces of our strength and prosperity, china, russia and other of our adversaries are looking at it and seeing that we are no longer the leader of the

western world. we no longer derive the strength because of those relationships and the trust that we have had built up over the years with our partners and allies, we are now increasingly a loner. and that donald trump is going to, you know, pursue these relationships with russia for was it economic, business, commercial reasons, throwing out us american values again, that have undergirded our foreign policies for, you know, generations. so it's so, so puzzling. but what i find most outrageous are the people like marco rubio and senators, republican senators in the congress and members of congress who are allowing this to happen. they see this this is a train wreck in real time. and the pace of this train wreck is accelerating, and they continue to just fawn over donald trump, even though they have to know in their heart that this is really detrimental to us national security interests. >> courtney, you. talked in your reporting about real question marks around troops stationed

all around the world, especially in european countries. what is the theory of. >> the case. >> that if we don't have to i. >> mean, just explain why they're. >> there and who they're protecting our allies from and what their disappearance would mean to whom? >> yeah, it's i mean, in some cases, it is about showing a presence which is protecting the ally there. but in in other cases, look, when you're there in that country, you maintain your access and your influence with those militaries and you, you i this is a word that i cringe when the military uses, but it's true. you maintain your interoperability with those with the, the, the allied militaries. you you're able to work with them. so on the good days, so that if a bad day comes, you all can work together and defend or fight together if that is necessary. so from a practical military perspective, having these troops forward stationed in europe, having that presence there it is. it is not only again, to show that the united

states is there and is present, but there is a real practical implication for the military's operating there. in addition to that, these allies in europe have been some of the historic, historically closest allies for the united states military. they sell weapons. they they share systems. losing that would be a tremendous change to how the us military operates. and also, just as director brennan was saying, it's not just about what the countries get out of the united states. the united states gets also has benefits benefit from having people their intelligence is shared with the united states. that can then benefit the homeland, that can benefit the united states. and right now, it appears that a lot of these these decisions, according to the officials that we're talking to, a lot of it is candidly being made because of cost and money and reprioritization towards the southern border here in the united states. >> courtney bqe, john brennan, thank you very much for starting us off on these tectonic shifts. thank you so much. when we come

back, we'll keep this going. more on the potential weakening of nato that could be coming from donald trump, a leading democrat on the senate armed services committee will join us. >> and weigh in. also ahead, what donald. >> trump has. planned next could very well be the most drastic and. disruptive move of his presidency so far. what he's about to do, reportedly to an agency that. >> provides support. >> for any child in the united states of america with any sort of learning difference. we'll have that story coming up. and later in the broadcast, our friend alex wagner joins us with her latest reporting from the field, a coalition of attorneys general with what appears to be a single mission protecting the people of this country from their president. we'll have all those stories and more when thhave you always had trouble deadlinwith your weight? me too. discover the power of wegovy®. with wegovy®, i lost 35 pounds. and some lost over 46 pounds. and i'm keeping the weight off. i'm reducing my risk.

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democrats can win again. the blueprint with jen psaki. listen now. >> what we do is try. to cut right to the bone of. >> what we're. >> seeing in washington. >> that day. >> let's bring into our coverage democratic senator tim kaine of virginia. senator, thank you for being here. first, your thoughts on all the news of the last 48 to 72 hours about trump's very public aligning with vladimir putin over president zelenskyy? >> well, nicolle. >> it's just. >> nobody would. >> have predicted it ten years ago. but sadly. >> after. >> donald trump's first term and the strong arm effort to get dirt from ukraine. >> on. >> joe biden, it's sadly predictable. and you've got multiple things going. trump pausing. >> military aid to ukraine. >> trump pausing. >> intel sharing with ukraine. trump raising questions about nato. trump suggesting that ukraine invaded russia. trump suggesting that zelensky. >> is.

>> a dictator. all the signs are pointing in a very dangerous direction. two weekends ago, i. >> was in. >> finland, the newest and most excited. member of nato. they joined because they saw. >> the. >> dangers of russia and they embraced the notion of democracies aligning against authoritarians. and i. >> was there on the day that. >> the us was voting with russia and north korea in the un against a ukraine peace resolution. and they were like, you know, did we join excitedly? right. as the us is about to pull out the plug on the life support system, and i assured him that was not what congress wants. that's not what the american public wants. definitely not what virginia wants. >> not what i want. >> but they had reason. >> to worry. >> and i know they're even more worried now than they were two weeks ago. >> i worked in the white house on september 11th, and as allies, joined the american effort to respond in afghanistan, the coalition that was assembled and updated every day with the kind of support our allies were offering, was called

the coalition of the willing, the coalition that's being assembled without the united states of america to boost the democracy in ukraine is called the coalition of the willing. what is it like? especially, you know, being being from virginia, where the pentagon was hit on september 11th, to have a coalition of democratic nations called the coalition of the willing assemble itself. without us. >> it's painful. >> nicole. one of nato's three. commands is in norfolk, virginia. >> and it's not a command that's shrinking. >> it's a command that's growing. in fact, it's been a leadership command. but we're now developing an operational command so that we can. implement nato actions in the kind of high. >> north. the north atlantic. >> and so this is really personal. when i when i was in finland, i was there to visit the virginia national guard. training with. >> the finnish military in a. >> state partnership program. my virginia guard was so excited. the finns were so proud of the tie. >> and this isn't.

>> just about what we do for europe. i'll give you an example. finland has the expertise in the world in icebreakers. >> we need more. >> of them in the us and we don't really make them. and we've entered into an agreement with finland and canada, where we can use their icebreaker expertise to help us defense. finland is buying f-35s made the united states. it's a us technology that they're paying for so we can interoperate and provide for defense. so this isn't just about what we do for others. it's also about other nations training with our military to make them better, buying equipment. >> and ammunition. >> and weapons platforms for us. >> and then. >> helping us develop capacities that we don't have right now. >> let me ask you about the other side of the coin, not just the alignment with putin, but the what's being described as, quote, abuse of our allies. this is new reporting into nbc news about a phone call donald trump had with the prime minister of canada, justin trudeau, quote,

i'm told that the meeting that trump had with mr. trudeau yesterday, again, it was a tag team. howard lutnick, the commerce secretary and the vice president, jd vance. and i'm told that it was extremely abusive on the part of the president. and everyone is asking themselves the question, how do we deal with this level of irrationality? and also this level of abuse? what happens when america, quote, abuses its closest neighbors and allies? >> well, canada is a close neighbor and ally. the, you know, one of the biggest trade partners with the united states. we've been peaceful friends for so very long. canadians spent a lot of time vacationing. >> in virginia, and we. >> really love. canadian visitors. but this kind of abuse is just so sophomoric and juvenile. and then you got to ask yourself, who's the big. baby here? you know, they have. >> that meeting and maybe. >> they talk tough to prime minister trudeau. but today, lutnick announces we're backing off on the tariffs yet again.

they announced the tariffs, but then they delayed implementation and now they're backing off. once again. they're not backing off out of the kindness of their heart. trump's backing off of these tariffs because it's a. horrible idea economically. they're looking. >> at. >> bad news in the stock market. bad news in inflation. there's republicans who are going to the white house and saying, we're not going to say it publicly, but this will be a disaster for our farmers and our manufacturers. and so they announced this charitable decision today. we'll back off for the tariffs another month. so they may have talked abusively, but they ended up backing down, not canada. and they backed down because tariffs are a stupid idea that only hurt americans. >> your the commonwealth is being battered by both the national economic pain. the price of eggs is up everywhere not down. and the very local pain of the indiscriminate chainsaw that elon musk likes to wield to the federal government. tell me what life is like for

the fired federal workers in virginia. >> nicole. it's awful. it's awful. i mean, virginia has probably the third most per capita of federal workers. the full total is probably about 320,000 federal workers in virginia. and the indiscriminate firings in these agencies hurt virginia, maybe more than most. and i'll tell you who they really hurt. it's a war on veterans. 30% of the civilian workforce is veteran, and a disproportionate share of the probationary. the new employees are veterans because they career switch from the military into the civilian workforce, and then they are on probation for a year. hence, easy for trump to kick out and fire. so these firings mean that donald trump in six weeks has fired more veterans than any president in the history of the united states, and he's not done. and can i make it even more pointed? they're going to fire 80,000 people at the va. we just opened a va clinic, state of the art

$350 million facility in the fredericksburg area last friday. but sadly, the building is nice, but they got a skeleton crew because of hiring freezes and firings and the fact that a whole lot of people who might want to work with veterans look at it and say, gosh, i don't think this is a good place to go to work right now. and so if you're going to punish veterans by firing them, and then you're going to punish the va, making it harder for veterans to access services. this is a war on veterans. and they can't claim it's accidental. donald trump was president once before. he knows who the federal workforce is. russell vote ran the omb once before. he knows who the federal workforce is. why would they decide to disproportionately punish people who have worn the uniform of this country? >> what's the answer? why? i mean, the politics are terrible. the public stands with veterans. the military has some of the highest approval ratings of any

civic institution, more than more than the congress or the media, unfortunately for you and me. but why? why do you think they're doing this? >> all of those things, nicole, you said are true. but we have a president who has called veterans losers, who called john mccain a loser who wouldn't visit a military cemetery in paris in france during his first term as president, because it gave him the willies to have to go out and visit a military cemetery. this is a guy who has always had a bee in his bonnet about veterans. and listen, our veterans aren't dumb. people can say the nice words, the thanks for your service, but it ain't words. it's actions. where the rubber meets the road is actions this high. this firing binge hits veterans harder than any other group in this country. and the va layoffs into a va that is already short on personnel is salt in the wound. >> i guess we cannot let you go without asking you about another

previously sacred piece of american politics kids, students, school age kids, including school age kids with any learning difference that have ieps that have independent learning programs. donald trump is eyeing the elimination of the department of education. your thoughts? >> it would be horrible, but you're right. he campaigned on it. i'm on the help committee. nicole. so when linda mcmahon was before us for her confirmation hearing, i asked if donald trump destroys the department of education, who is going to implement the individuals with disabilities and education act? you know, it's not just about dollars that go to states or title one funds for low income kids and schools or school nutrition programs. it's not just dollars. those are probably going to get cut too. but who's going to implement these programs to make sure that the kids are getting the ieps that mean that they get a high quality education? and linda mcmahon's answer to my question was, i have no idea. i don't know who's going to implement

this. you can talk about sending education back to the states. yeah, that's what that's where we were before brown versus board of education. the states got to decide, and the states made a hell of a lot of decisions that were really awful. and that's why there needed to be some level of federal supervision over what is still primarily a state and local responsibility. i've been a mayor. i've been a governor. education is primarily state and local, but at the federal level, it is about modest funding in the overall pie chart of how schools get money. but it is also about oversight and civil rights and efforts to make sure that all kids get a quality education. and the notion that we're going to blow it up without even knowing who's going to enforce the law, that gives disabled kids a fighting chance at life. success is a very, very frightening thing. >> senator tim kaine, we could have gone for the whole two hours so much in the news that that that you're on the front lines for. thank you very much for. >> taking coming back. >> you bet.

>> thank you. thank you. so do we. thank you. much more when we come back on what we're talking about, the expected, anticipated dismantling of a federal agency dismantling of a federal agency built to serve our kids. (man) got one more antoine. (vo) with usps ground advantage, it's like you're with us every step of the way. ♪ (man) cooool. ♪ (man) right on time! (vo) stay in the know. from your dock... to their door. >> this critical time. >> calls. >> for the critical news. >> coverage that sling provides. >> coverage that sling provides. (vo) memory and thinking issues keep piling up? it may seem like normal aging but could be due to a buildup of amyloid plaques in the brain.

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todd takes prevagen for his brain and this is his story. hi, i'm todd. i'm a veteran of 23 years. i served three overseas tours. i love to give back to the community. i saw a prevagen commercial and i did some research on it. i started taking prevagen about three years ago. i've told my coworkers and family, since taking prevagen, how much of a difference it's made in my life. i feel really good. 2025. on chapter 11, prevagen. for your brain. page one, we'll read the first sentence to you. federal education policy should be limited, and ultimately the federal department of education should be eliminated. well,

project 2025 commands it, and it appears donald trump heeds it. closing in on keeping that campaign promise. wall street journal has obtained a draft of a trump executive order aiming to do just what that sentence says it would do, directing the newly minted secretary of education, linda mcmahon, who is currently on her fourth day on the job, to take the necessary steps to facilitate the closure of the department. mcmahon told staff at the department of education in an email earlier in the week that donald trump and the american voters had, quote, tasked us with accomplishing the elimination of the bureaucratic bloat here at the education department. a momentous final mission quickly and responsibly. now, only congress has the authority to kill a cabinet level department, the federal government, and it would need 60 votes in the senate. but it's clear that the department responsible for distributing money to students with any sort of learning difference or disability, administering student loans is right now,

because of donald trump on life support, with its entire workforce, knowing that their bosses at the department and in the oval office are looking to eliminate the department and put all of them out of work. joining our conversation is randi weingarten. she's the president of the american federation of teachers. let me just i think because if you're a parent of kids, what you touch is your your kid's school and your kid's teachers. but let me let me just put some information out there. public schools in the country educate almost 8 million students with disabilities. the education department distributes funds for college and student loans and financial aid. it funds all education programs for low income kids and homeless kids, distributes funding for all kids with disabilities. does college accreditation, civil rights enforcement. and importantly, even with all the attacks, a lot of them unanswered, forcefully or specifically, 63% of all

americans oppose this. and that includes some of trump's own voters. your thoughts? >> so, number. >> one, let me do a little bit of a civics lesson, nicole. which is states and. localities control education right. >> now from. >> graduation standards. >> to curriculum. >> they control education. >> that's why. >> we all go to the. >> local school board to, you. >> know. >> talk about. >> issues of the day. >> so this doesn't pass the smell test. what this is about is basically. taking a. hatchet to the opportunity. >> funding that. >> the. >> department of education. >> now does. >> implements. >> because of what we have done, all of. >> us from lyndon johnson. on from. >> the. >> 1960s on. >> the department doesn't.

>> run anything. >> what it. >> does is. steals opportunity gaps. so for. >> kids who. are disabled. >> who were. never given. >> the attention. >> they needed. >> that's what the idea is. >> and the. >> department now makes sure. >> it's implemented so kids. >> get on. >> an. >> iep. >> an occupational therapist or a physical therapist. >> for kids. >> who. >> are poor, what it. >> does is. >> make sure there's a reading. >> specialist and. >> a paraprofessional. to help with. >> literacy. >> or to help. >> with math. >> you're talking. >> about 26. >> million. >> kids. for kids who. >> are first. >> generation college. >> goers. >> it gives. them funding to. >> get to college. >> for kids. >> who. >> want to go into career. >> and it gives funding so we can have the kind of. >> clean labs. >> the health care pathways. that's what we're talking. >> about here. so we're talking about. kids in america, 90% of whom go to public schools. >> they want. >> to take.

>> the funding. >> it's like robbing peter to pay. for tax cuts. and it's wrong. and that's. >> why parents and teachers. >> are against it. >> you want. >> to change bureaucracy? >> fine. no one likes inefficiency. we be the first ones to. >> tell you how. >> to do it. >> don't do this. >> to our american. >> children. >> i think we have a graphic way to illustrate that. trump seems to relish punishing people that he thinks didn't support him. but this decision actually disproportionately punishes people who at least, you know, the data sug in states that did vote for him. will you talk about that? yeah. can you see that? will you talk about the wealth gap and where this is going to hit the hardest? >> exactly. so what happens with the biggest. funding source. >> here. >> which comes. directly from

the congress. >> title, one of the education and secondary. act that started that, that lyndon. johnson started. but every president. since then has tried to. increase is. >> that this goes. >> for poor kids. >> so if you look at. >> this graph. >> sorry, i'm not i don't. >> have my glasses on. so i. >> just put mine on. it's mississippi, south dakota. arkansas you know. yeah, exactly. >> mississippi. the poor, one of the poorest states in the country. >> has the biggest funding. >> per capita. >> because title. one goes directly to kids in those schools, it. >> can't. >> be glommed. >> off by the state. it can't be taken. >> by the. >> federal bureaucrats. >> it goes directly to schools. >> and part. >> of what's. >> going on here. >> is that people like. >> donald trump and. >> betsy devos, maybe linda mcmahon, they want to take this money and make it either into

tax cuts for the rich or into block grants. so they take it from the poor kids. >> who need it. >> or for the kids from disabilities who. >> need it. >> and put it into block grants so that they can give it to basically rich parents who want vouchers. >> what is the what is the opposition to this look like since it isn't? i mean, i mean, put the picture back up there is if there's a partizan detriment, it is purely in the red states in this country. the chart is almost all red. what is the ability, even if it were bipartisan, to slow or stop this? >> so, you know, this is part of. >> what i like. unfortunately like education was not an issue in this last national campaign. it was in states and in every state where there was a voucher fight. the voucher fight lost parents, you know, basically

only 30% of adults in america have kids in schools right now. so basically what we need to do is what we did this week, which is in schools across the country, parents and teachers, community activists, all on march 4th said, protect our kids and don't gut this funding. and so that's what it's going to have to look like. it has to look local. in terms of this fight back. we had over two activities on march 4th in in schools to say, don't do this. >> i want i have to say, i want to ask you to stick around. i want to talk about student loans. that's another big function of the department of education. it would be massively education. it would be massively impacted. come on. what are you doing? trying to watch the game, but my screen's busted. you should go to t-mobile. you can trade in a broken phone, and they'll give you a brand new iphone 16 pro on them. where did you get gum? it was under my seat. aaaagh!

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the, you. >> know. >> early mid 2000, there was a lot of scandals, not just, you know, about banks in general, but on student loan practices. so what president obama did was take the entire student loan portfolio and gave it to the department of education, because they did a lot of stuff on colleges anyway and said, let's make sure that, you know, there's transparency and that kids know, like mortgages for families, what the loan rate is, what the terms of payment are. and let's call balls and strikes in a real way. you know, some of the loan servicers that they hired were not great, like now mohela and then beforehand. navient. but that's why they had that's why the department of education has this book of business. but what is happening now is that i think trump basically wants to give it to the private sector again. but

right now people have loans. everything has been taken off the website. so you don't know what your loan payment is. you don't know how much you still have to pay if, god forbid, you are a penny or two pennies late or different than what the payment is supposed to be, then you could be in forbearance, meaning then somebody could take, you know, basically say you have bad credit rating. and for the bipartisan program of public service loan forgiveness, that was done, i think, by your boss, you know, when you were in the white house, hillary clinton and ted kennedy, they've just taken that program right off the website. so you don't know how to apply for it. you don't know when you're when your when your loans are due. they're just trying to junk it so that people are going to be in bad financial shape. >> what, in your view, is the most effective way for people to stop this if they don't like it? again, another indiscriminate,

not politically aligned harm being done to the american people. >> so the first thing we have to do is we have to educate people about what's really going on. i mean, just symbolically that this is the smallest department in the united states. and the things that elon musk cut. but let me give you one example that really is close to my heart, a program i taught when i was a social studies teacher, the we the people competition, which is a civics program to help kids learn how to debate and understand the constitution. it couldn't be more patriotic. i mean, they taught it in the red, red district of zandvoort. they taught it in the blue district. my school, clara barton high school, they cut that program when we need civics. so part of what we need to do is educate people that this is not just mean spirited and cruel, but it is undermining of innovation and of opportunity for kids. and

then number two, we have to go to the congress. there's lots of republican congresspeople. you showed it in your chart that get lots of money for their districts and their schools that are about to get ripped away. so that's where the fight is going to have to be in the congress and in the courts and in the court of public opinion. >> randy, we'll stay on this story as it has such such wide ranging impact. we'll continue to turn to you. thank you so much for spending time with us today. ahead for us, another reversal from donald trump on tariffs. we'll tell you about it next. >> i am. >> tony hawk. and like many of you. >> i take. >> a statin to. >> reduce cholesterol. >> but statins can. >> also deplete coq10 levels. that's what my dr recommended. >> qanon coq10 qanon has the >> qanon coq10 qanon has the number one cardiologist your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do.

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home instead. for a better what's next. donald trump today said never mind and walked back his tough talk on tariffs. not once but twice after this morning announcing a month long pause on tariffs from mexico. he then added, and also decided to pause the tariffs on some imports from canada. apparently, this morning's news that mexican imports would be spared for now did not do enough to help the markets bounce back. they've been volatile for much of this week. the dow closing down more than 400 points after dropping more than 600 points at session lows. the backtracking came just hours after donald trump's treasury secretary, a gentleman named scott bessent, said this, quote, access to cheap goods is not the essence of the american dream, end quote. he also called

canadian prime minister justin trudeau a quote numskull. end quote. at the at an economic club of new york event. put that put a pin in that word and hang on to it. he is so far keeping the tariffs in place on china, which china says they're prepared to fight, quote, any type of war with the united states of america. we'll stay on top of that story for you after the break. a group of democratic officials are taking on elon musk and donald trump directly. now. they are the subject of some intrepid and fantastic new some intrepid and fantastic new reporting from my colleague alex [birds chirping] [dog growls] ♪♪ ♪ who knows what tomorrow ♪ ♪ will bring ♪ [dog barking] ♪ maybe sunshine, ♪ [dog whining] ♪ and maybe rain ♪ ♪ but as for me ♪ ♪ i'll wait and see ♪ [knock at door] ♪ and maybe it'll bring my love to me ♪

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nightmare. >> plans from homeserve start at just 4.99 a month. call 1-888-246-2612 or visit homeserve. com. >> these federal. >> job. >> cuts are. >> not just. >> numbers on a. >> spreadsheet. >> they are real. >> people. >> real families. >> and real consequences. in june, i will lose my job as a father of a three year old.

>> this isn't just. >> about my career. >> it's about my. >> child's well-being right now. without my job, i don't know how i will afford to keep her in preschool. >> the stress of this situation. >> situation isn't just financial, it's emotional too. it's the fear of not knowing what comes next or having to make impossible choices. between my daughter's education and basic needs. i have. dedicated my career. >> to. >> education that is 25 years of my life. >> hi again everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. the flooding of the zone we've seen so far from the trump presidency, the staffing cuts, the executive orders, the pardons, lawsuits. it can feel overwhelming and you can lose sight of the real human beings. which is why the nearly two dozen democratic state attorneys general have banded together to coordinate a strategy to focus our minds and to challenge the trump administration on the legal front. and so far, their efforts are working. as politico

lays out, the attorneys general, quote, see themselves as the last backstop between the people of this country and the president. their multi-state lawsuits have temporarily stopped the president from revoking birthright citizenship, from freezing federal funding and cutting off money for medical research. now they're taking that message on the road for attorneys general held a town hall in phoenix, arizona, last night. they laid out their plans, and they heard from everyday americans like the educator you just heard from. my friend and colleague alex wagner was there. she attended last night's event and spoke with one of the ags on the front lines, keith ellison of minnesota. take a listen. >> we haven't. >> lost yet, by the way. we filed about seven lawsuits. >> we. >> haven't lost yet because what he's doing is illegal. >> this isn't. about partizan differences, right? >> this is. >> about litigating the law. >> what is constitutional. >> and we've now. >> reached a point in. american politics where it's not like democrats fighting the republican administration. it's the chief law enforcement.

officers at the state level who are saying that's just plainly unlawful. >> it's unlawful. >> it's just. >> a completely. >> different world in. american politics. >> it sure is. >> it's about legality at. >> this point. >> well. >> we're in a. >> new phase of american history. when the chief executive of the country is absolutely unconcerned about the legal implications of his decision. it used to be that the president was like, well, is that legal? what are the precedents? say, what are the statutes say? i'm here to execute the laws, not to violate the laws. well, this president doesn't see it that way. the lawless, unregulated, just arbitrary way he's acting. and it means that we've got to stand up and oppose it. and i believe we're going to win. >> last night's town hall was just the first in a series of events these democratic ags will hold. more from that. politico reporting finds that their organized resistance is constant. they're meeting every day. quote the country's 23 democratic state attorneys general. log on at 4 p.m.

eastern for a 30 minute confidential video chat to coordinate their plans for pushing back against the trump administration. they share updates on the seven cases they have moving through federal courts, and they argue about whether to treat elon musk as a lawful arm of the government or an uncredentialed interloper to it. they plot where to respond next, leveraging time zone differences to expand the workday. their latest victory just today, a federal judge sided with them over 20 states and dc, extending a block that prevents the trump administration from freezing federal funding. in his ruling, judge mcconnell said the executive branch was trying to put itself above congress and by doing so, undermines the distinct constitutional roles of each brand of government. it's where we start the hour with some of our most favorite experts and friends, chief among them emma, not. yes. msnbc senior political analyst. this is your new title. congratulations my friend. >> thanks, thanks. >> host of trumpland podcast, alex wagner is here. also

joining us, president of media matters for america, angelo carusone and chief political columnist, host of the impolitic podcast for msnbc. national affairs analyst john heilemann is here. i'm so happy you're here. >> i'm so happy to be here. >> i have the same cough. so if you need to stop saying that or stop and take it. yeah, it's. >> not covid. it's been like. >> should we explain to our viewers because i get these tweets like it's something wrong with you when you have a little person, you cough from about january to. >> poison us. they give. >> us love. >> but they also poison our immune systems. i feel fine, i'm not contagious, but i may have a stray cough here. >> or there. okay. this is i think i read about this happening and wanted to make sure we knew what was happening. and you were in the room. tell me about. just set the stage for the whole thing. >> there were like 350, maybe 400 people there last night. this is a town hall that's being organized by really, i mean, chris mayes is the attorney general of arizona. this was in phoenix. she was kind of the tip of the spear on this. but this is something that all these 23 democratic state attorneys

general, it's an effort they're participating in. and these town halls are both a chance for the public to kind of come together and talk about what's worrying them, how. >> these. >> cuts, how the trump administration agenda has affected them. but it's also a chance for these attorneys, attorneys general, to hear what is happening and what may actually be unconstitutional. right. it seems, vis a vis these cuts. >> and it seems that each helps the other. >> yes. they were all taking notes on the stage. and i think this material i mean, ag mayes told me this is then going to end up in a potential future lawsuit. >> and you have more. >> i do have more. i will say, nicole, there are a host of issues brought up, right? the focus was federal funding and spending cuts. the group of people, and this is the state of arizona, where there are a lot of army bases. the group of people that i think were most vocal last night were veterans. i want to play a clip from a man named tim cox. he's a veteran who works in the labor department and the office of federal contract compliance programs. this is what he had to say about this administration and its treatment of the men and women who have served this country. >> nearly 6000 veterans.

>> have already lost. >> their jobs. >> and been terminated. >> from federal. >> service at an unprecedented. >> rate. >> and will all enter the civilian. workforce with less protections. >> while my time is limited. >> i just wanted to. >> say this. >> this isn't subjective. >> this is evidence. >> this is evidence. in less. >> than two. >> months. >> this administration. >> has. >> proved itself. >> to be the most. >> anti veteran administration. >> ever. >> what's going on is just not just. >> not right on so. >> many levels. yeah. >> you called it the most anti veterans administration in history. >> it is. i mean. >> there's six. >> almost. >> 6000 veterans. >> that are terminated. >> there's it was just reported today. >> that 80,000. va employees are going to. >> be terminated. >> they have. >> the most amount. >> of veterans. >> it shows. >> you that. >> the billionaires are the

ones. >> who. >> matter. >> you know. >> and they're going to. >> step. >> on anybody to get. >> them what they want. >> and so it's. >> unfortunate. >> but. >> a lot of people. >> are. >> going. >> to suffer. >> i mean, nicole, you will remember when donald trump became, i mean, the first president to do something like besmirch the legacy of a war hero, john mccain. and i think people thought, oh, maybe that kind of disgusting treatment of someone who has served our country in the most tangible, visceral, self-sacrificing way. maybe that's an anomaly. maybe he will move past that. this is evidence, the treatment of veterans, right, which was once the third rail in american politics. you would never see a republican party targeting veterans, targeting the va, having veterans come to town halls and say, this is the most anti veteran administration in american history. the statements trump made about john mccain, the statements he's made about people who serve, who were wounded in combat, he as someone who got out of serving this country because of bone spurs, that was not an anomaly. that

was an indicator. and you are now seeing the harvest of that, those seeds. the treatment of veterans is not going unnoticed by veterans themselves. there were a lot of them that spoke up last night and they feel the same way. >> what's so interesting? i mean, you conducted those interviews last night. tim kaine was on my show an hour ago, and he described it as a war on veterans. yeah. this is this is for all the laws of gravity. and holman and i talk about this all the time that have fallen by the wayside, right? that we no longer abide by the one that even trump, i think, seems to act like he knows is still in place, is that we hold our veterans up above everybody else. right. they've done more. they went out and protected our way of life. they deserve the best that we have to offer. what's amazing and what is, to your point, sort of a feature of trump 2.0 is no pretense that they too are fair game. >> no, not only fair game, but you sense in all of these cuts that there's, as i think it was one of the ag, said raul torres

from new mexico said what he hears from this, this maga doge world is a language that has been stripped of all humanity. there is a punitive aspect to all of this, a targeting of those people that have worked within the bureaucracy, no matter who they are and what they've done with their lives, no matter how much they care about the country and want to protect its citizens, that they, because of that life choice, deserve to be treated unequally, that they deserve to somehow be punished or treated worse than any other employee that you would have in any. large corporation. right? it is a targeting of these people that i don't think we have ever seen in our lifetime. it's cruel. >> i mean, and i think the antidote, right, is to humanize them. trump's bet is that, is that what the public will hear is just we're cutting out waste and fraud from these mass bureaucracies. and they they don't bet on you being out there putting a face. >> to it. >> and i will say, i think this is the brilliance of this strategy employed by these ags they're having. these are attorneys general. these aren't politicians holding rallies. they sure feel like political

rallies. this is people coming together, giving each other courage to come forward with their stories and making it a matter of public record. and they're not just doing it. and by the way, this is arizona. this ain't washington, dc. they're doing this in minnesota. they're going to do this in colorado. i mean, you remember these health care town halls that republicans held in 2010? this could be the beginning of the real resistance. and it's not playing out at the ballot box. it's going to be playing out in the courts. >> well, and, john heilemann, i mean, to the point of sort of the conversations that you and i have been having now for three months, where is the heat? the heat isn't falling along. right? right. there's not some, you know, star search like contest for the perfect democratic candidate. the heat is around the voters. and i again, i don't know what party any of those folks are who they voted for, but the heat is around. the indiscriminate suffering that trump has ushered in with these indiscriminate cuts. >> right? yeah. and, nicole, it's the thing that we've been

talking about, as you say. you know, all along. it is it is simply. >> too early. >> for the. >> heat to be. >> around a candidate, you know, and you're to your point, alex, about, you know, the there's the. >> laws of physics. >> there's also the. >> laws of political. >> meteorology, right? it's like. >> there is there are seasons in our politics. >> you know, and. >> the seasons. this is not the season of presidential campaigning. >> that that. >> season will come. >> ecclesiastes tells us, you know, to. >> everything there is. >> a. >> season. >> that season is not now. and if you go back and think about that analogy that. >> alex just drew to the health. >> care town halls in 2009 and 2010. those were not around. a republican. candidate either. >> they were around. simply people who. and we can go back and argue about this all day long. >> but they. >> were people who basically had had were scared. because they. thought that that the president's health care program was going. >> to. >> not let them choose their own doctors anymore. that was very visceral. >> to people. >> you can say that it was

mischaracterized, but that was why people turned out. >> and. >> they came out because they thought something very fundamental to them, particularly around. their health and around their autonomy was. being taken away. and what we're seeing the beginnings of now, i think, is exactly the same thing in these veterans forums where the. veterans are. >> becoming upset. >> it's not just that there are cuts to the va. those are those are politically toxic. it's not just the fact that there are tons of veterans serving in other agencies, not the va, but veterans throughout the federal government who are also being affected and who are feeling sympathetic towards the va itself. but it's that the va is primarily. >> a health. >> care organization. the va, what veterans get when they come out of their service is they get good health care, and when they start to see the funding and the personnel, many of these people are getting fired. are nurses, nurses, aides, doctors, the medical technology people who run the tests, those that goes to a very fundamental thing,

just like the threat that was perceived on the right of obamacare did on the republican side. and you start to take away that, you start to mess with people's sense of their health care and their health security. going forward, you are going to see a reaction. i believe that is one element of political physics that has not been repealed as yet. >> angelo, if i if you had a thought bubble over your head as we're talking, i think it would say it's all in the plan. it's all in. broderick 2025. they had always planned to make these draconian cuts that were politically toxic, but there is still a second layer of surprise when it actually comes to pass. >> yeah. and i mean, i have a couple thoughts on. >> this too. because the thing that i would just remind. >> everyone and. >> maybe it's a bigger surprise for people, is that we've barely scratched the surface. i mean, just to put this into perspective, all of the things that we're talking about, all the harms so far are the result of 60,000, 62,000 federal employees that have been terminated. they're 3,030% of

the federal workforce are veterans. so it's not surprising that they're disproportionately affected in these wave of terminations. but it's worth noting that even at the bare minimum end, project 2025 will fire or terminate about 300,000 federal workers. i've gone through it a bunch of times now. i think it's probably going to end up somewhere between 550 and 620,000 federal workers when all the dust settles from these terminations. so we're basically about 10% of the way through the terminations of the federal workforce. and then the secondary part of that, and this came up in your discussion earlier with randi, is like when you start to cut title one funding, for instance, from the department of education, that that accounts for 180,000 teachers that that work in low income areas across the country. so you have to then layer on those additional people that aren't federal workers, but are directly tied to these contributions and to these to these sort of grants from the federal government. and that's where it ties into the storytelling part of it, because one of the reasons why these ags are able to be so effective in

what they're doing, aside from their commitment to coordination and their stiff spines, is that they started doing their work last summer. >> yeah. >> they started looking at the plan because the project 2025 was so clear, you could start to see where some of the edges or the overlaps are going to be on the most unconstitutional or illegal actions, and then you can organize sort of the law part of it around where you're going to focus your fire first around those really big takes. and then second, and this is where these town halls are really important in two ways. one, the lawsuits are also very fact intensive, and that's where you start to get. and alex was getting to this in her discussion is that you get some insights. you get some of these case studies, you get really good facts, good good examples and indicators that you want to then bring to the court as your representative of that class of individuals, of the types of people that are going to be affected by those illegal actions. and those tend to be the real difference makers in some of these significant cases that have to work their way through the system as a whole.

and i think, and this is where i put a bow on all of it, is that one of the advantages that you've seen from the preparation that the ag's have done is that they put their heads down. they looked at what was in front of us. they didn't cower in fear. they didn't wait for it to happen before they started the plan. they planned accordingly and then sort of implemented that set of actions. that was an important thing. but it's worth noting that even they themselves acknowledge that, that it's a bulwark, it's a backstop against these harms, because in order to go ahead, we need a bigger narrative. and that's where the larger opposition party here has to be the one really driving the vision forward to actually shape the larger public opinion. and hopefully all of the ingredients from these harms will help at least provide the material needed to do that. >> i mean, that's, that's that's the everything. right? and i feel like you laid that out with keith ellison when you said the whole the whole frame has changed. we're not talking about democratic and republican politics, politics, policies,

priorities. we're talking about that which is legal and lawful and that which isn't. i want to have that conversation with all of you. i have to sneak in a break first or they'll yell at me also ahead. we'll do that. also ahead there, stunning new reporting in the washington post about what's happening inside the government agency responsible for wait for it social security, new warnings from the inside, people saying elon musk and his team will, quote, make mistakes as they take their chainsaws to what has always been. i know we keep saying this, but this one really was a third rail of american politics and life. what it could mean for the tens of millions of americans who benefit from and rely on social security. deadline. white house continues deadline. white house continues ♪♪ did you take your vitamin today? that's my job. ♪♪ nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. ♪ [suspenseful music] trains. [whoosh] ♪

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>> what we do. >> is try to cut. >> right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington. >> that day. >> what are the long term implications for. >> research at usgs. >> if they're firing people like you? i think. targeting early career. >> researchers is devastating. >> for the agency. >> just because the workforce tends to skew older already. and if we lose our junior staff, the institutional knowledge is at risk of not being passed down to up and coming geologists and other scientists. so i don't think it's going to be good for our research capabilities. >> so that was the fired researcher. we heard from him yesterday from jacob soboroff. great reporting. he worked at the united states geological survey, and he was addressing this issue that that needs some explaining. when the trump administration says it's cutting probationary federal employees, that classification makes it sound like they're on probation, but they're not. that's just what they call employees who are only 1 or 2 years into their positions, or individuals who have just received a promotion

because of their excellence, to move up to a higher rank. they are technically called probationary employees. so when you hear about mass firings of probationary employees, especially at places like the cia, which new reporting says is cutting all of its recent many of its recently hired officers, it begs the question, if we're getting rid of the new eager, smart, accomplished employees, who is left? we're back with alex, angela and john. so. so jacob did this great reporting tuesday. are you okay? okay. >> you cough, cough. >> sorry. i'm back. >> i'm back here. we're moms with kids with moms. moms with kids with. >> coughs back. >> i'm good. it's important to understand who they are. and your great reporting at usaid put a face on some of them. but but this is another one. this is who they're getting rid of. >> well. >> i actually spoke with some probationary employees outside of the treasury department, and they were protesting again, d.o.j. cuts, d.o.j. interference in the federal government. and these are the best and the brightest. this is exactly the future. it's like the same thing

about immigrants, right? these, in many cases, are the people who have worked hardest to get here, who have taken low paying jobs, who are in many ways the backbone of the american economy, who have sacrificed so much to be a part of this country. that's not to say that they can be here indefinitely without papers, and that our immigration system doesn't need reform, but these cuts are so indiscriminate and so wanton. they're without the logic of trying to say, well, if we're streamlining the government, if we're streamlining the country, who do we actually want here? what kind of people do we want? the probationary employees are the next generation. this is how you have a functional and well-oiled machine of democracy, and a federal government is by bringing these folks in and keeping them there. >> you know, john heilemann, it sort of gets to your point about seasons. i feel like you're playing the role of like, the philosopher, and i kind of love it, but but there's like, it takes a minute to like, like it's where the rubber is going to meet the road. and it is

popular to cut waste. right. and it's sort of how trump and elon musk, you know, thought it was smart to walk around with a chainsaw. but the next season is understanding and it what it's week 4 or 5. who's counting. it took a minute to understand and explain that probationary workers are not on probation. they are the future of the government workforce. they are, you know, as we've been saying, the younger ones, the people without as many protections. but it points to something else that in this legal friction, even they're aware that there are going to be legal hurdles to what they're doing. and so in some ways, they were getting rid of people for whom there were fewer legal impediments to can. >> right, exactly right. nicole. and i think you know that this to stay with the same theme. right. it's like we've seen a lot of activity and a very aggressive, you know, the whole flood the zone strategy that we've seen from the. trump administration obviously. has been purposeful. and they. >> seem to be moving very quickly. and they are. by normal

standards, moving. >> fast and. moving recklessly and. >> indiscriminately. >> as we've been saying throughout. but the reality is, like. >> the federal government. >> is not you know, it's still it's still the qe two. you know, it's still it's still a giant boat that even if you're like really high on really great meth, you can only. >> move it a couple degrees to the right. >> or left at a time, no matter. >> how fast you're trying. >> to move that, that, that wheel, it's not a cigarette boat. it's not like you can suddenly make. >> a sharp. >> turn to the right or the left and people go away. >> and part. >> of the reason it takes there's, there's, there's they have cut through a lot of red tape, legal. >> red tape, normal. >> restraints that would hold you back and make you think these things through. but they're still. >> then there. >> are the courts. >> there's the grievance. >> systems that get played out. and there's the thing you're talking about, which is, you know, just to reflect back for one quick second on our earlier conversation project 2025, the fact that it laid out all of these things is true. it's true.

but go out in real america for a little while and ask people how many people you know delved. >> into that. >> gigantic book. we had people on the democratic side trying to get people to focus on it, but in. >> the real lives of. >> real people, they're. focused on. >> trying to get through every day. >> they're working two jobs. they're trying to make sure their kids have shoes on their feet and have decent health care. you tell them to go read a thousand page document and absorb that they're not going to do it. and even if they did, they have heard so many politicians right, left, center, democrat, republican, make campaign promises that they never came through on. and they know donald trump has in many cases been full of crap. so, you know, a lot of people were like, well, maybe it's in that document. i can't bother to read it. and if i read it, i'm not sure i'd believe it. anyway, it is the moment when the pain starts, when you start to see what these things are. unfortunately, it would be great if we could learn this stuff in advance and have kind of like minority report, like precog abilities, but it's only becomes

politically salient when people start to see the actual pain and feel the actual pain. and that's when we move into the next season, which is the season of that. we're just starting to see the green shoots of right now, which is the season of backlash and the season of whoa, wait a minute, wait, you're doing what exactly? and that's going to affect my life. how exactly? wait a second, buster. put your chainsaw away and let's have a conversation. >> i mean, angela, i want to come back to something that you have really put in the front of my mind, and that's narrative dominance. and i think it is clear after november's election that that donald trump always had and maintained and probably did today maintains narrative dominance. i think the speech was about dominance. right. and i think that you can want that to change. you can hate that. that is. but the narrative dominance will only change when the credibility is restored on the part. of all the people that were right about all of this

stuff. and i wonder if you can sort of speak about, i mean, it seems like lived experience and the pain that people are going to feel because of what trump is doing that's deeply unpopular, helps restore credibility of the folks that were warning, i mean, the most unsurprised people are the pro-democracy coalition, the people that are on the front lines, and many of the democratic politicians who are saying this is exactly what he's going to do. the surprised people are the trump voting federal workers, the trump voting farmers, the trump voting small business owners for whom the tariffs, the firings and the cuts are devastating? >> yeah, i think that's i mean, i mean, and even to your point about the most surprised people, and i said it the last time i was here and it remains true, if you really want to hear the truth about how people are feeling right now, you have to listen to the callers and to right wing talk radio, because it's only gotten more intense in the last few days, because they are calling into the show that they typically listen to and

have been for years, and they are saying, i'm a listener. and yet i've now been affected by this thing, and i didn't think it was going to happen to me. and they are appealing to people like sean hannity and mark levin and these other prominent right wing talkers to sort of go to someone in the trump orbit and say to them, wait, you made a mistake. it actually is hurting me. i wasn't supposed to lose my job. this this grant wasn't supposed to get affected. this rule that that is affecting my local community was not supposed to happen. you just need to explain to them. and then, of course, they won't do it. and that's to me really significant because we are only at the very, very early stages of the types of actions that they're going to continue to take, and we're already seeing the consequences of it. the other part that's really interesting about the narrative side of it is that one thing that that that they have this right wing echo chamber, but it's not one monolith. it's not just fox news anymore. fox news is a laggard. they used to be the vanguard. they used to be like the assignment editor for the rest of the right wing media. fox news and rush limbaugh were the centers of gravity, and if they talked

about it, it would reverberate through that echo chamber. that's not really the case anymore. it's a real loose coalition of sort of like right wing edgelords, sort of like frustrated manosphere people, the traditional right wing media. there's massive disparity. and that echo chamber sort of has been functioning because trump has been at the center of it and the vibes have been so good. but it's a real loose coalition. and one place where you see a big separation is around social security. in the more traditional right wing media, there's a lot of, whoa, don't break social security. careful. be careful. that's going to get us backlash. but in the younger parts of the right wing media, they're excited for this because 50% of young people didn't expect to get social security in the first place, so they don't care if it breaks. and so that's the part that's really interesting, is that putting aside anything that the democrats do and the rest of the media, there is real vulnerabilities already within the right wing space, both that they're beginning to internalize the truth, as we're seeing with the right wing talkers and their ability to maintain an echo, is already starting to show some fracture points. so what does that mean in the grand scheme of

things? and to your point about restoring credibility, that's the target. that's where both the rest of the media. and i'm so grateful for alex's reporting on this, to elevate those stories in a way that helps really connect the dots between the harms that are being experienced right now and the actions and the policies that the administration are taking, either because they're reckless, as john has said, or because they're intentional and deliberate, because they're just cruel and callous and because they're trying to reshape our culture that is going to help restore the credibility. don't tell people that you have to be credible. show them that they'll get there. no one wants to eat the words. >> and the point of the credibility is that that is the that is sort of the doorway through which you walk to regain narrative dominance. and then once it is built on, on the true, real lived experiences of people again, democrats, republicans, farmers, teachers, workers, social security recipients, then it is unshakable. i don't know if we asked you to stick around for a third block. i'm going to ask you now on live tv. i need you guys to stick around. when we

come back, we're going to make one more turn. angela already brought us there to social security. next on the doge treatment chopping block where things stand right now, there are new warnings about what musk and his team are doing. they're they're inside and how they're going about doing that. we'll going about doing that. we'll bring you the reporting home. it's where we do the things we love with the people we love. celebrating, sharing—living. so why should aging mean we have to leave that in the past? what if we lived tomorrow in the same place as we did yesterday? what if we stayed home instead? with help, we can. home instead. for a better what's next. join the more than 7 million adults, home instead. like michael, who have taken ozempic®. as touring musicians, my type 2 diabetes could have slowed us down. but i didn't let it. i'm michael from the war & treaty, and this is what my ozempic® era looks like. i'm lowering my a1c.

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i guess what i'm looking for from you is, i mean, i know how the fire affected me, and there's always a constant fear that who's to say something like that won't happen again? that's fair. we committed to underground, 10,000 miles of electric line. you look back at where we were 10 years ago and we are in a completely different place today, and it's because of how we need to care for our communities and our customers. i hope that's true. [joe] that's my commitment. [ambient noise] 1-833-735-4495. >> or visit homeserve. >> com. >> i don't know if. >> it's their plan to crater it, or if they're just. so ignorant of how stressed it is that they

don't realize they. could interrupt benefits. and let's keep. >> in mind these are lifelines for 72.5. >> million. >> americans or and. half of all. >> seniors living. >> alone depend entirely on social security. >> so i. >> do believe this will probably be. >> the first beloved program by. >> americans that these doughboys break. >> former social security administration commissioner martin o'malley sounding the alarm with my colleague rachel maddow about the danger elon musk and donald trump's cuts pose to social security and the senior citizens who depend on it. it's a concern that was echoed earlier this week by trump's own acting social security administration head. the washington post reports this quote in a meeting tuesday, acting ssa commissioner leland dudek referred to the tech billionaires cost cutting team as, quote, outsiders who are unfamiliar with the nuances of ssa programs. that's according to a meeting participants detailed notes that were

obtained by the washington post. quote d.o.j. people are learning and they will make mistakes, but we have to let them see what is going on at ssa, dudek told the group, according to the notes. quote, i am relying on longtime career people to inform my work, but i am receiving decisions that are made without my input. i have to effectuate those decisions. things are currently operating in a way i have never seen before in government. comforting stuff right? dudek himself has slashed jobs at the agency, which has led to strained staff and delays in processing claims. already, washington post reports this, quote employees at a field office in indiana have been forced to pick up calls for other offices, according to one employee, and they are fielding phone inquiries for an area covering two thirds of the state. the phone quote never stops ringing now, the employee said. phone backups have prevented the staff from processing retirement claims. quote, morale is in the toilet, the employee said. we all know what doge wants to do, which is

just break us so they can privatize us, end quote. joining our conversation, federal reporter for the washington post, lisa ryan, whose byline on that great piece of reporting from the post. tell us more. >> hi, nicole. well, first thing. >> to say. >> is that i. >> think a lot of. >> people did. >> not expect that elon musk's team. >> would be. >> so aggressive at. >> the. >> social security. >> administration. >> but it turns out. >> that the. >> agency is. >> really one of. >> their main targets. >> there are about a. dozen doge people you know there. and you know, this whole situation. >> started in a very. >> odd way. because basically, a mid-level data analyst was. feeding information secretly to the doge team. about two weeks ago, he was elevated to acting commissioner because. >> trump's nominee hasn't. >> had a hearing yet and isn't there yet. and so. you know, he

basically basically kicked out a career person who was who was in the acting role. so this guy admits, you know, to a group of disability advocates who had a meeting with him this week that he's. >> not running the show. >> you know, the. >> doge people are. and so that. >> in itself is highly unusual, because i think the trump administration wants it to appear, you know, that doge is. just on the sidelines. but here that's not happening. so i. >> think we. >> have two things going on. and martin o'malley alluded to some of this. >> one is that. >> you know, they're making big, big cuts. they want to cut 7000 employees from a workforce of 57,000. so that's a little over 12%. this new guy has only been in, you know, the acting role for literally two weeks. he's announced to all kinds of office consolidations. they have offered early retirements. they're offered buyouts to

staff, even field office staff. and so those are cuts are going to be considerable because social security, you know, has been had a really level budget for many, many years. and each commissioner who comes in tries to get more money and fails. and they've really struggled with customer service and, you know, the wait to talk to someone on the phone now, you know, we're hearing isn email from someone who said she waited three hours to get someone on the on the call. and then last thing is just what access doge wants to the data bases that that the agency has. you know, it's a huge payer obviously of retirement benefits and disability benefits. and there are, you know, an incredible amount of personal information in these databases, and it's just not clear what they want to do with it. >> what do your sources worry they could do with it? even if

they don't know what they want to do with it. >> so leland dudek, who is the acting commissioner, has actually been clear about one thing, which is he has told the staff that it's really time for social. security to start privatizing some functions. now, he's described those as non-mission critical functions, meaning back office, you know, operations, tele service operations. you know, people who who are on the phones at answering questions. he's saying, let's outsource them. but i think the worry, of course, is that, you know, benefits will be privatized and the administration of those benefits will be that's a concern. there's no evidence that this is going to happen. and in fact, president trump has said many, many times that we're not going after social security. so, you know, i know people are very worried when they see stories like this. but, you know, there is no evidence that the administration is going to

cut benefits. however, you've got elon musk actively going on going on x, his his social media platform, talking with conservative host joe rogan and basically calling social security a ponzi scheme. and so you wonder, okay, what is what is his end game? he's also talked a lot about fraud and, you know, exaggerating fraud. there is fraud, but it's not on the level that they're talking about. >> lisa. it's an incredible piece of reporting. thank you so much for joining us to talk about it. we'll keep this going with our panel on the other side of a short break. we'll be right back. >> all of this can be overwhelming. >> but it is. >> important to. remember there are still checks. >> and balances. there's a lot being thrown. >> at the american people right now. >> and it is really important to. pay attention to it, but it is just as. >> important to recognize how many of those things are getting

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with apple intelligence on us on our most popular plans. plus get up to $800 when you switch. ♪♪ biggest ponzi scheme of all time, right? >> explain that. >> oh so. >> well, people pay. >> into social. >> security and the money. >> goes out of social. >> security immediately. but the obligation. >> for social. >> security is. your entire retirement career. so you're you're paying. >> with your the people. >> you're paying. >> like like if. >> you look at the. >> future obligations. >> of social. >> security, it far exceeds the tax revenue. >> angelo, what is the endgame with social security. >> to break it? >> and if they don't break it to force through more people working longer in life, which is

a pretty big stated goal of the people behind project 2025, or to cut benefits. and it ties into what we've been talking about. there is a cruelty here that is, that is that is at the center of this. the other part is that and i think this is the thing that wasn't in the clip, but it is very concerning because it gets to the politics. one of the things that they're hammering away at, and musk and others, is this idea that there's $72 billion of fraud in social security right now that's being distributed. and that's where trump reading off, you know, that three, you know, 300 year old people are getting benefits from social security at the state of the union. that number is just jaw dropping. it's obviously not true at all. but it's jaw dropping. and they're going to keep hammering, hammering it away. and a lot of the republicans that are keep talking about, oh, don't you dare say anything bad about waste, fraud, abuse. that's all they're doing. it's going to be really hard for them to defend social security, which they're going to want to do politically when they've now sort of empowered this venomous snake of misinformation, because it's the same thing that has been driving all of these other cuts as well. and that, to me is the key part

here, is how much that particular lie is able to penetrate is, i think, going to be directly correlated to how effective they are at driving through real significant benefits related cuts. and right now it's got a lot of steam. >> the venomous snake of misinformation. i'm going to steal that. but it comes back to your body of reporting because the rubber meets the road or the venomous snake gets run over by a car. i'll drop the snake stuff before the snake. people get mad at me. but when, when real people get hurt. >> yeah. i mean, that's where there is a break between i mean, trump is saying this stuff at the state of the union, which is political theater, but he understands that you can't gut social security and that there are real political repercussions to that. doge and elon musk are an entirely different thing. south african billionaire who has not really been a part does does not come to the understanding of the social safety net the way i think a lot of americans and americans in need do has been tasked with this. i will say one thing, nicole. i think the trump

administration realizes that elon musk is a problem for them, at least optically, if not politically. and i will tell you from my conversations with these 23 democratic ags, including tish james, who i talked to in the car yesterday, they are focused like a laser on elon musk. tish james has a lawsuit against elon musk and his potentially unconstitutional access to american data. they understand that this guy i mean, trump has e has even suggested t he's out there operating, you know, with he has not confirmed what he is doing, may not be constitutional in any way. and i feel like, you know, we're seeing i guess what i'm saying is it is terrifying what he is saying. the road ahead could be terrifying if they do in fact try and privatize social security. but having spent some time with the tip of the spear of the resistance, there are people out there who are fighting this in a real, meaningful, measurable way. and you could see it stopped in the courts, but you could also see it stopped in the court of public opinion. people understand when they're not getting their social security benefits. and john heilemann says the government is like the qe2. it's like the qe2 in

shallow water. very quickly, that system can get real messed up with elon and his doge team messing around in the machinery, and that will be felt pretty dramatically and pretty quickly and pretty publicly. >> holman, you get the last word. >> well, first, alex, it's not doge, it's doge bags. so just keep that in mind. >> thank you. thank you, my philosopher king. >> now, now. >> we've created a monster. >> we knew that, though. we knew that that happened. >> let me so we've said we heard the acting from the reporting, nicole. we heard the acting head of the ssa say that elon musk and his team are not familiar with the nuances of what the nuances of the administration, of how the program works. well, that's obviously true, but what the rogan podcast tells you is that elon musk is not just unfamiliar with how the program works. and if you listen to that, you play that clip longer. he gets really lost in trying to explain how why it's insolvent and why it's not when, when, when everybody who's really

looked at this understands. there's a simple solution here, which is to raise the cap on on income that goes into it. but i'll tell you what else he is, is he's totally unfamiliar with the durability and the potency in our politics of social security. you should give him a lesson about what happened when george w bush tried to partially privatize social security, and what that did to his presidency. everyone should go back and read that history. >> well, it was the same point in a second term. and it literally i mean, there were a lot of things that weakened george w bush's political capital. but but you're right, that was central to it. this was so fun. can we do this again? alex wagner, angelo carusone, and john heilemann, the philosopher. thank you for david takes prevagen for his brain philosopher. thank you for spending the hour with and this is his story. nice to meet ya. my name is david. i've been a pharmacist for 44 years. when i have customers come in, i recommend prevagen. number one, because it's effective. does not require a prescription. and i've been taking it quite a while myself

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