>> good evening everyone. i'm symone sanders townsend and we begin this hour with the

continued destruction of american democracy. i know, i know, it sounds bleak, but look, it's only been two months since billionaire elon musk and his doge officials started bulldozing their way through every federal department, ruthlessly slashing employees across the country. yesterday, elon musk met with congressional republicans to reassure them that everything was great amid voter anxiety over those sweeping cuts, musk and republicans tried to map out a path to make all of these changes permanent and impervious to legal challenges. >> please say anything. >> to them, like. >> the concerns. >> that he used to slow. >> down. >> take a. >> little. bit more of a cautious approach. >> no, i mean, i encouraged. >> him to go as fast as possible because we're going to lose our guts. >> 100, 150 days. this bunch is. >> going to. oh, man, that's cutting into my. >> what congressman tim burchett is cheering on. let's just be very clear on mass layoffs, including reports that the department of veteran affairs would terminate 80,000 employees. congressional

republicans, along with president trump and elon musk, are facing growing resistance across the country and in the courts. these actions are, in fact, wildly unpopular, which probably explains why musk is reportedly unhappy and doesn't like taking the blame. the tweets would like another word. this afternoon, president trump made quite a show of coming to his defense and explaining to the press and the public that it wasn't musk who was directing things. even though musk really is. >> so i. >> had a meeting. >> and i said, i want the cabinet members. >> go first. >> keep all. >> the people. >> you want. >> everybody that you need. >> elon and the group are. >> going to be. >> watching them. >> and if they. >> can cut, it's better. >> and if they don't cut, then elon will do the cutting. >> well, the new york times is reporting that cabinet members have been privately concerned about some of elon musk's actions and have voiced those concerns to white house officials. this some vague proclamation, which is more

performative than factual, came shortly after trump announced that he was suspending new tariffs on most imports from mexico and canada until april. now his tariffs or taxes, frankly, on the middle class, that's what they are. they have sent the stock market plummeting. and while trump doesn't seem to care about the american public, he does listen to the markets. joining me now is republican strategist and msnbc political analyst susan del percio, former s.d.n.y civil attorney maya wiley. she is now the president of the leadership conference on civil and human rights. she was almost the mayor of new york, but that's another story. and paul rieckhoff, he's the founder and ceo of independent veterans of new york and the host of america and the host of independent americans podcast. paul, i'm actually going to start with you because i laid it out for the people. elon musk now doesn't want to take the credit. i don't even think the president wants the credit. they're trying to push it off to these cabinet secretaries. and one of the most i woke up this morning, i did morning joe, and i was like, not the veterans, not the va. what is going on? >> well, we said it before we

went live here. this is some unique bull, right? i mean, it is outrageous. it is. despicable and it's predictable. we knew they were coming for the va and they've been working their way down the federal government. they started with generals, you know. then they got to trans people. now they've come for veterans. they're going to come for teachers and veterans hold a very sacred space in this country. and i think what they're failing to appreciate is 83,000 people who were laid off are going to be 83,000 off americans who start protesting and start pushing back and start organizing. and really, i think what's going to happen here is the patriotic purged from the pentagon to the fbi is going to become the very important core of the opposition, a patriotic, nonpartizan group of people who want to serve their country and think this is wrong, especially the way it's gone down. it's one thing to fire people, but to fire. 83,000 people who are many of which are veterans like you, don't care. and to treat them so disrespectfully, that's where i think they're really crossing the line. that's going to come back to bite them. >> i mean, i would not disagree, i think and again, the president

i think, is responding to the markets, but also republicans, frankly, with party, whom i know, and a bunch of my colleagues on from nbc news on capitol hill have talked to folks. i've been talking to folks they are privately, they're calling the white house and privately being like, you know what? donald trump signed an executive order today that would make it expensive to challenge the legality of all of his dubious orders. i want to play the sound because i'm confused, but maybe you can clean it up for me. >> this presidential memorandum would order the department. >> of. >> justice, its litigating. components to. to seek those injunction bonds. whenever someone tries to challenge our policies. >> in court. >> so that when they end up losing in. court and we believe. >> that they will end up. >> losing in court. >> that they can be held financially responsible. >> for the disruption. >> to federal activities. >> that. their actions. >> have caused. >> what? >> well. >> let's just make a couple of things clear. >> what we just. >> heard was.

>> if you. >> read between the. >> lines, is. >> we're getting. >> sued because we're. >> violating the law. >> by overstepping. >> our authority. >> and we're. losing because a lot of these cases, judge. has been, at least in the short term, losing. let me be clear, because. >> a lot of them have not been finally determined. but in the. short term. >> we have a lot of. >> judges and a lot of jurisdictions. saying temporary restraining. >> order. >> preliminary injunction. >> in other words, we. >> think there's. >> enough grounds here and enough potential. >> harm and enough. >> reasons under. >> the. >> law to think, we got. >> to stop you now. before you harm. >> people. >> because we can't fix. >> all that harm if we wait. and so what they're. >> really trying to do is say, we. >> are telling you that we're going to do. >> yet another way. >> of weaponizing the department of. >> justice by. >> directing them to make you afraid. to file the suit. >> in the first. >> place. >> or to try. >> to make it more. expensive for you. so even if you're not. >> scared about the. >> price tag, we're. >> going to tell you that we're

going to do everything in our power to make it too. >> expensive. >> but it's not. >> going to have the impact we need to keep this in in mind. judges don't have to agree just. because the department of education and the department of justice. >> asks. >> a judge can say, yeah, there is no reason why i would institute an injunction bond. >> but all it is. >> is to. say. if you. don't actually win you're injunction, you're putting. >> up money. >> against what would be a. frivolous case. >> and what would. cause financial harm. >> hard to say that the financial harm to the government of the. united states of america requires us to prevent people from vindicating their rights. >> what's so funny. >> about that is that it reminds me of. >> donald trump, when he. >> was. >> a builder. >> and would. >> basically let people come on. >> susan. right. like he. would say, go ahead. >> sue me, let's go. >> to court. >> and he tried to outlast. >> all. >> especially the mom and pop places that. >> did work for him. >> and he just. >> knew the. >> longer he stayed.

>> in court. the more unlikely he would have to have. >> someone suing him, which. >> you fast forward. >> as he knows, the. >> more you. >> stay in. >> court, guess what? the less. >> they're going to be able. >> to. >> come after you. >> they may wear them down and then you get to become president again. >> i think this is really important. >> point. >> and what we have to add to it is one. >> of the. >> reasons why this. >> isn't going to quite have that impact is because we're talking about unions. >> who are bringing. >> these lawsuits. >> we're talking. >> about nonprofits whose very existence is to bring these lawsuits to vindicate the. public interest. >> talk about a democracy forward. >> and we're talking about a lot of people with protected status. >> like. >> disabled veterans. yes. correct. so. >> the are you trying to tell me the veterans are covered by d. i say more because the streets are saying that's d. >> that's actually. >> part of it. >> i've said this long ago that they came for the pentagon first because it's the hardest. it's the strongest, it's the biggest. it's the most important. they're coming for the va next because it's how important it is. it's hard to fire veterans. it's very difficult. if you can plow

through the veterans affairs department. everything else is easy, just like they saw at the pentagon. so i think people need to understand the symbolism, understand the cultural significance and just the magnitude of the workforce, hundreds of thousands of people, if you can carve through the pentagon and the va department of education is easy. >> well. >> can we just add. >> to this? >> because i think it is so important to recognize veterans are in every community. >> yes. >> reverend veterans look like everybody. veterans are people who have emigrated to the u.s, believe and want to fight for the united states of america. >> so everything. >> that they're coming for, but. >> also veterans. >> are people with disabilities. >> they have come. >> to attack civil rights laws and diversity and equity and inclusion includes accessibility. >> we are talking. >> about veterans when. we are talking about. >> accessibility. >> when donald trump claimed that we. >> had an airplane crash. that took 67. >> souls, including. >> of military service members. >> who did. >> he attack people with disabilities. >> so there's. nobody who. >> is safe. >> from being. >> victimized by an effort to

say, i. >> just. >> want to be king. >> i want to. this is from the washington post on veterans. roughly 6000 veterans have been laid off in recent weeks by the u.s. d.o.j. service, according to federal data compiled by democrats on the house appropriations committee. veterans make up about 30% of the federal workforce in every department. and then you've got the va secretary, doug collins. this is what he had to say today about more cuts. >> now, we regret anyone who loses their job. and it's extraordinarily difficult. >> for me. >> especially as a va leader and your secretary, to make these types of decisions. but the federal government does not exist to employ people. it exists to serve people. but we'll be making major changes. so get used to it. >> i was on with i think i was on morning joe this morning and i said, it's been a long day. i was i was there, okay, different outfit. >> i saw. >> you and i made the point that this administration, unlike any administration before it, including the first trump administration, does not believe that the government should work

for people. they actually believe that the government is excessive. and their ethos, if you will, is about they want to dismantle the administrative state that is the government, the bureaucracy, whatever they want to call it, because they don't believe in it. they are intentionally trying to break it. do you agree with that? and i think, susan, that's not a republican thing or a democratic thing. republicans and democrats have had differentiating views about what the federal government should be doing, but i think everybody at least was like, well, we can we can. we want to have one. >> right? there are services. >> i think. >> everyone could agree. there are services. >> that government. >> should provide. now, there are legitimate. >> questions to ask, like what. >> is the purpose of government? >> and that has been changing on a partizan divide over time. you know, you have to. >> ask yourself. >> is the purpose. >> of. >> government to make sure everyone has a college education? >> that is a. >> valid argument to have. it may be government's. >> purpose to make sure. everyone can qualify. >> that they get the high school diploma. >> but do they all? >> should they all have a college? again, you can disagree.

>> and people can disagree because i. >> do. >> but i think it should. i think. >> they should. but i'm. >> just saying. >> like you. >> have. >> to decide what the purpose of government is and the way they're. going after the cuts is what's. so it doesn't make sense. it shows how little they know about what government does. you talk about. >> it. >> makes sense if they want to tear it. >> all down. but by the way, we talk. about like 83,000 people out of work. well guess what? they also have families. so that's 83. >> times parents or siblings or spouses. >> or cousins. >> or uncles. >> there's a lot of people. who are going. >> to get very angry over these cuts. >> can i just throw something. >> on the table? >> there's just one more. >> thing. >> that's really important that when whether we're looking at veteran affairs or just across government, a lot of veterans, as you know, paul, they they go from active duty. and when they when they retire from active duty, they look for jobs in the government. >> and they are. >> conditioned right now considered probationary. so they got hit in. >> that first. >> strike, probably the heaviest out of any group of folks. >> i want to play this sound

about medicaid cuts and medicare potentially coming from rick scott. and then i want to have you both respond on the other side. this is rick scott today talking about they're going to cut medicaid. >> i'm optimistic. >> that we're. >> going to get something done. i don't think it's easy. people are people are they think. of the way that. >> ron is saying that. you know. you can't cut, you can't cut, you can't cut. >> and that's all. >> great that that then you're not you're not. worried about. >> any program you. >> care. >> about because medicare is going bankrupt. so security is going bankrupt. you know, inflation can't go away. interest rates can't come down. so my belief. >> is it's all. >> going to this is this is we're going. >> to have to do this. >> and he's going to have to feel some pain. i think that's the reality of what's happening here. medicaid medicare is sacred in this country. and the only thing that's more sacred are things like the gi bill. right. because the veterans affairs department is actually a proof of concept, for better or worse, when it works well, it's the gi bill. when it works poorly, it's the va backlog. so this has always been a massive target for the very extreme part

of the right wing. this was what pete hegseth did when he ran a group called concerned veterans of america. they wanted to privatize the va. they wanted to break it down to its studs. and they said, this is the prime target. this is where we're going to start. so it is a proof of concept for them about how they can rip it all down and then move outward from there. but there's also an old saying that we had babies, puppies and vets. you don't mess with babies, puppies and vets, and when you do, there's nothing less popular in american politics and in american culture. and rick scott, elon musk and donald trump are going to find out, especially when they start protesting at tesla dealerships. >> so can i just say babies and vets are on the chopping block. >> and i don't know about puppies. >> i hope not. but my point. >> kristi noem i was going to say. >> but when you say. >> service. >> dog, but. >> but when. >> you. >> say doordash. >> but when. >> you say medicaid. >> 72 million. >> people. >> 72 million. people get medicaid, 40% of. >> them are white, by the. >> way. >> they use the attack on

diversity, equity and inclusion, which is not what they're talking about. they're really talking about civil rights laws that protect all of us to try to tell. us some people deserve and some people don't. well, guess what? everybody's going to get hit and hurt. but medicaid is. what pays for women like black women who are. dying at 3 to. >> 4 times. >> the rate of white. >> women because they. >> want to be mothers. >> this is. >> these are. >> the programs and services we're talking about. >> well, they also take care of. nursing homes that elderly. >> people on disability. i mean, it goes on home care services. oh, thank you all for being here. paul rieckhoff, susan del percio, maya wiley hit the nail on the head, folks coming up, republicans, they are clutching their pearls and they are preaching decorum after trump's address to congress. yet they are. let me check the notes. oh, they are silent. after house republicans called a sitting congressman an illegal immigrant. that's a quote that congressman adriano espaillat congressman adriano espaillat joins me after the break. for more than a decade farxiga has been trusted again

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>> when you need it with abacus. >> president trump's first 100 days watch. >> i'm going to be here five days a week again. >> read and listen. >> staying up half the night reading executive orders. >> for this defining time in the second trump presidency. stay with msnbc. each week, veteran lawyers andrew weissmann and mary mccord break down the latest developments inside the trump administration's department of justice. >> the administration. >> doesn't. >> necessarily want to be questioned on any of. >> its policy. >> main justice. new episodes drop every tuesday. >> congressional republicans want you to think they care about decorum and manners. so today, the house voted to censure democratic congressman al green of texas for interrupting president trump's speech on tuesday. and his interruption was to say that trump does not have a mandate to cut medicaid. it was technically a bipartisan vote, not technically, because ten democrats voted with republicans to censure their colleague. but

it's really hard to believe that republicans actually care about decorum or taste or anything like that. when the official republican congressional campaign arm tweeted a racist lie calling democratic congressman adriano espaillat of new york an illegal immigrant. espaillat is a dominican american. he gave the spanish language rebuttal to trump's address. he also chairs the congressional hispanic caucus and has been an american citizen for decades. but apparently they don't care about that. well, congressman espaillat joins me now. sir, i this is what the national republican congressional committee said to defend their racist statement about you. there lie. democrats care more about policing words and fighting facts instead of policing our border and fighting crime shows just how out of touch they are. it seems to me that they have to talk about this because they can't talk about the economy and housing, or the fact they want to cut medicaid. this, this was sickening to see. i'm just wondering, you know, 24 hours

later, what are your republican colleagues saying? >> well. >> it's funny that. >> the. >> bulk of my rebuttal. >> was about. >> medicaid and. >> medicare. because 525,000. >> of my. >> constituents are medicaid patients. >> and 108,000. >> are medicare patients. >> so out. >> of the. >> 780,000 people that i represent, over 600,000 of them are on. >> medicaid or medicare. >> but you see. >> elon musk and donald trump. >> got. >> this telenovela going on. >> and behind. >> the. >> scenes. >> these are the. >> issues and the proposals that they're. pushing to cut medicaid. >> and medicare. >> and apparently. >> they didn't have a. substantive response to my rebuttal. and so they went. >> ahead and they called me. >> an illegal immigrant. >> so that's that's. >> where. >> they're at. >> but it's not just about me. it's about anybody that doesn't look like that. they they look i guess it's a profile that they got. i met last week with leader jeffries and a young man who's

an american citizen who was stopped and questioned by ice on his way to work. >> with. >> a federal id on him. he works at the airport, and he was stopped and questioned for two hours. and a local police officer, new york city police officer had to tell him, look, he has an id, call his job. so this is what's going on in america. this is the state of business in america. and of course, the republican campaign committee couldn't resist but to join in. >> the young man that you and leader jeffries met with. he was an american citizen, had american id. so what prompted him being stopped? >> well, they got swept out of the train station. they got pulled aside with 15 other people, and he got questioned for over two hours. he was late to work. he kept on telling them he was, you know, he was a us citizen. his wife is a us citizen. his kids are us citizens. and yet they question him. and all they had to say was these kind of, kind of ids are forged in neighborhoods like this all the time. so this is

the state of affairs in america. and so, of course, the republican party feels empowered to say things like this, although privately some of them have come up to me and apologized. >> but no public apology yet from the nrcc. you know, i am struck by the fact that while this is happening, we i just played this out in the last block. rick scott, senator from florida, who has a history with cutting medicaid and defrauding situations, if we can just be frank, was at a conference that he held today and spoke very openly about the fact that, yeah, he thinks that they are going to republicans are going to have to put forward cuts to social security and medicaid. you have the former commissioner of the social security administration saying that next month payments may not come out. medicare, social security hasn't missed a payment in 80 years. these are real things happening in, in for people all across the country. housing costs, the cost

at the grocery store are high, but this is what they choose to focus on. this a narrow majority that they have. do you think that this puts democrats on stronger footing to take back the house this fall? >> no question about it. i think that the trend is in that direction. i think that we have to be firm and we have to show the american, the american people who are fighting for them. so i have these medicaid recipients, people that live in my district. i got to fight for them. they got to know that i'm fighting for them every day. and, you know, next week is going to be a big week. i think we hold our ground next week really strong as a five member margin. and you know that at any time there are five republicans of any persuasion that will join in and debunk their their agenda. >> you don't think any democrats should vote for whatever is put forward next week, whether it's a clean cr or the actual budget? >> well, i got to see the details of whatever is brought up, but i tell you, if it's a long term cr that empowers them to get medicaid and medicare and food stamps, that's 220,000

220,000 households in the district that get food stamps. so if they're going to touch these basic services that are keeping my families in place, i'm going to fight back. and i and i will not vote for a long cr that empowers trump and elon musk to take medicaid and medicare away from the american people. >> before i let you go, this is what al green representative al green was standing up and protesting at that joint address of congress. ten democrats voted to censure him today, along with republicans. why? >> well, look, dissent is patriotic. it is right at the center of democracy. al green was dissenting with what president trump was saying. and i think that's patriotic. yet, you know, they call people illegal immigrants and all kinds of names. and yet that's that decorum is fine. double standard. >> double standard. representative adriano espaillat, thank you so much for joining me in the daytime hours

today. >> thank you. >> appreciate your time. coming up, folks, disturbing reporting that trump is planning to issue an executive order to, quote, facilitate the closure of the department of education. former secretary of education arne duncan joins me after the break. >> i'm a. >> patient guy. >> that's searching for a hotel. >> trivago compares hotel prices from hundreds of sites so you can save up to 40%. can save up to 40%. >> look how easy that is. yet another toothpaste that does not whiten. girl, this one werks! ♪♪ basic toothpaste stops at the top. crest goes deeper to dissolve the bonds that hold stains to teeth. for whiter teeth in one day. we shall overcome. we shall overcome. the struggle for equal rights in the united states has been hard fought,

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>> will too. >> i can feel the winds. >> of. >> change. >> president trump is expected to direct his secretary of

education, linda mcmahon, to dissolve the u.s. department of education. now, republicans seem torn on just how far to go, but two republicans are speaking out against the plan. >> do you. >> support the idea of getting rid of the department of education? >> no. >> because i think that the department of education actually has some. >> some functions that. >> we think. >> are important. >> i believe they could. >> be downsized and. >> that it. >> has grown. >> too bureaucratic. >> and too big. the decision on. >> whether to abolish. >> the. >> department is one that only congress can make. >> joining me now is arne duncan, who served as secretary of education under president barack obama. honestly, this is arnie. i mean, it's not the first time, right, that this idea has been kicked around ever since the department was created under president carter. ever every republican president, people who have ran for office in the house and senate have

talked about abolishing the department of education, but this feels different. what are you hearing about this particular effort? >> well, it is different. >> this is. >> not left versus right or d versus r. >> trump is an anomaly. we have never seen a president like him. in fact. >> i can. >> go through a number of republican. presidents historically, starting with abraham lincoln, who. created land grant universities, who invested in education and saw it as in our. national interest. >> president eisenhower created. >> the department of health. >> education and welfare. president nixon, lots of challenges for president nixon. but guess what? >> he signed. >> into legislation. pell grants that have been transformational. >> president ford. >> ida the chance. >> for children with. >> special needs to have. >> a free and fair access. >> to a. >> public education. so education should be the ultimate bipartisan. >> or nonpartisan issue. >> there's nothing political. >> about teaching our babies to read and raising. >> high school. >> graduation rates, and having more young people have a chance to. >> go to college. >> what trump is doing. >> is unprecedented in the

history of our. >> nation. >> and i want your listeners, your viewers, to. understand that. >> you know, the current secretary of education on her her first day, her first official day, which was monday, she sent a message to employees of the department of education and it said the elimination of bureaucracy should free us, not limit us, in our pursuit of these goals. i want to invite all employees to join us in this historic final mission. i think it's really important to the point that one of the, you know, republican senators made that congress only has the ability to abolish a department to get rid of it. so let's just let's just put that on the table. but the reality is, is what i think the trump administration is going to do is what we've seen them do to usaid, right. what they've attempted to do to the consumer financial protection bureau, they're just going to hollow it out to the point where they fired all these people, and the department cannot carry out its goals, which essentially is bringing it to a halt. what are

the ramifications of that? there are this isn't just some d.c. thing. this is going to affect people all over the country. >> so the real fair. >> question is, what does the. >> department of education. >> actually do? >> and let me sort. >> of walk. >> through a thing, a couple. >> of things. >> the department does. >> basically, what it. >> does is add additional resources to. help vulnerable children, vulnerable students. so whether it's access to pre-k for. our babies, our three and four year olds so they can enter kindergarten ready to be successful academically and socially, it puts a. >> lot of. >> money behind. >> children who live below the poverty. >> line, who need more resources. >> i talked. >> about ida. 7.5 million. >> children across the country with special. >> needs who need. >> additional supports. our rural children. >> who who. >> need more help. and i mentioned earlier, obviously, pell grants, you know, billions. >> of dollars. >> to. >> help many. >> first generation college goers have a chance. >> to go. >> so that's what. >> the department. >> of education does. it provides additional. >> resources to. >> the. >> most vulnerable children. >> across the. >> country, their best. chance to build a positive future. >> their. >> best chance to enter the middle class is to have.

>> a high. >> quality public education. >> and if he does anything. >> to. >> try and. >> hurt those families and hurt those those vulnerable children, that will be just educationally and morally bankrupt. >> the states are saying that they are not ready for the department of education to be dismantled. there's nbc news reporting where they're literally saying they are not prepared. state lawmakers, they have made clear that there are just few plans underway. and then you've got the funding uncertainty that has hit colleges very hard. there's federal funding that is at risk here, and the universities are scrambling to curtail costs. some are freezing hiring. they're admitting fewer graduate students. this is this is dire. all of that is happening in anticipation of what may come. and then you've got this at georgetown, the d.c. u.s. attorney tells georgetown he won't hire from any school with, quote unquote, die from the reporting. interim d.c. u.s. attorney at martin demanded that the dean of georgetown law school end all diversity, equity and inclusion efforts in the

school. what is happening here? >> well, there's so much here. but what trump does is he. just tries to weaponize education. again, i said education should be the ultimate bipartisan, nonpartisan issue. >> so you take any three letter acronym. >> whether it's dei, whether it's sel, whether it's crt. >> he weaponizes that to. >> create fear. >> and we. >> have a real challenge educationally in our country. you saw the naep. >> results that came out. reading scores are not. >> where we want them to be. >> where we. >> should all be united behind. >> is to help. >> our. >> children catch up, help them learn to read faster, better. there's not a single thing, not one word. trump is. >> uttered yet that has anything. >> to do with. >> teaching another child how to read. >> and this is where he's obviously. >> just so. >> dishonest and disingenuous. >> he talks. about returning education to. >> the states. >> well, as you know, 90%. >> of the. >> funding for k-12. >> education already. >> comes at. >> the state and local level. >> so guess what? >> congratulations. mission accomplished. >> that's already happened. >> but the federal government does is again, supplement those resources for our most

vulnerable children. so there's. nothing in here that helps children have better educational opportunities, nothing that helps them learn. how to read. this is all about weaponizing and politicizing education. >> and let me say, you can lie. >> to parents and lie to people about a lot. >> of. >> things, but. >> if you start to mess. >> with their babies, you start to mess with their children and children who are struggling. you wake up mom and pop a bear and. >> he could be he. >> could have something coming at him that he's not prepared to deal with. >> there was a whole election in virginia that the streets say hinged on parental rights. i don't know, there's something happening here. former secretary of education arne duncan, thank you for breaking this down. i'm sure we'll be calling you again soon. up next, folks. >> thanks for the opportunity. >> the world is increasingly turning away from the united states, with ukrainian president zelenskyy joining european leaders today to discuss security and their stunning new reporting that allies are considering scaling back intelligence sharing with the united states. we'll have more united states. we'll have more on this after the (♪♪)

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>> violating nato. and, you know, the biggest problem i have with nato, i really you know, i mean, i know the guys very well. they're friends of mine. but if the united states was in trouble and we called them, we said, we got a problem. >> france. >> we got a problem. a couple of others i won't mention. do you think they're going to come and protect us? they're supposed to. i'm not so sure. >> i will note the only time article five was invoked in the nato clause, where nato allies had to come to someone's aid. a country's aid was after nine over 11, and they did it for the u.s. so there's that. mr. president, this is just the latest in what has been an alarming trend that we're seeing play out on the world stage, where our allies are rallying around ukraine and therefore turning away from us, because apparently we're with putin. and it comes as new reporting from nbc news says that, according to five sources with direct knowledge that some u.s. allies are even considering scaling back the intelligence that they share with washington. in response to the trump

administration's conciliatory approach to russia. these allies, including israel, saudi arabia and members of the so-called five eyes spy alliance, are weighing the move because of concerns about safeguarding foreign assets whose identities could be inadvertently revealed. joining me now is john brennan. he's the former cia director and current msnbc national security and intelligence analyst. director brennan, this this all seems bad. >> yeah. it's awful, absolutely awful. but it's quite evident to, i think, a lot of our allies and partners that donald trump has decided to join team russia. he clearly is putting his weight on the side of russia in the conflict in ukraine. and i think it has raised serious questions among our allies and partners in foreign intelligence security services about what the potential compromise of their sensitive sources and methods might be if they continue to share it with u.s. intelligence

agencies. the us intelligence for as good as we are, we rely so heavily on the assistance, support the capabilities of foreign services. they have human sources, they have technical collection capabilities. we're able to derive the benefit from that for our own national security. and the fact now that donald trump is upending all of that again, just undermines the constellation of capabilities that really have kept our country strong and safe and prosperous over the last 80 years. and so, therefore, i am not surprised at all that it stands to reason that these countries would start to look at very, you know, clearly scaling back the flow of intelligence to the united states out of their concern that it could be compromised. >> i have to wonder, do you think that, i mean, not to suggest that all of our allies are watching the domestic media as closely as the americans are? but i am struck by the fact that there were boxes loaded onto air force one taken back to mar-a-lago that the president said belonged to him. these are

some of the same documents we believe. we don't know exactly what's in them that were removed from the president's care when he was the former president. during that, classified documents investigation, that that that the department of justice opened against him. so i'm wondering if they saw that. and they're like, maybe we need to reevaluate what's going on here, coupled with what the president has been saying about putin. >> our closest allies and partners for many years have been very concerned about the reckless and careless attitude and handling of classified information by donald trump. you know, in terms of he brought these boxes down to mar-a-lago. they were not secured. and that contains not just the secrets and intelligence from the us intelligence agencies, but also from our partner agencies. so, again, i think this is just sending a signal to those allies and partners that they can no longer count on the united states. and we are the ones who are going to be hurt by that, because a lot of these foreign services give us insight into

what our adversaries are doing, and the fact that donald trump continues to just, you know, align himself with vladimir putin, who invaded a sovereign neighboring state, who kills political opponents, who incarcerates american citizens, who carries out these, you know, cyber attacks against us on a regular and daily basis. it totally has has turned upside down. the arrangement that has been in place for so many years that has kept western democracies strong and safe because of that partnership that we've had with our five eyes partners as well as with others. so again, this is just a real traumatic sort of impact that i think is having. and also our partners and allies abroad see what is happening to our intelligence agencies here in terms of the sacking and the firing of individuals. it's creating morale problems inside these agencies. so again, it just raises a lot of questions and concerns on their part about what is happening here in the united states. >> one of our allies, we've stopped sharing intelligence with ukraine. ukrainians say that that decision would cost lives. the folks from kyiv,

ukrainians say a very petty decision, petty decision by our alleged ally, the united states has the power to at least protect and save the lives of civilians from russia's brutal and terrorizing attacks. and you just chose not to. switching gears a little bit, director brennan, to the point that you just made there is reporting out of wired that a sensitive complex housing a cia facility was on gsa's list of u.s. properties for sale. and we know it was on the list because it was published, but the list has now been deleted. but it had hundreds of government properties on there, and one of them was a very secretive facility. i think this kind of goes to the point about the callousness through which we are dealing with lots of things happening throughout the federal government right now, but specifically our intelligence and things that are traditionally very sensitive. >> yeah, i mean, it's mindless. it's also heartless. when we think of all of those public servants that are serving in the intelligence, law enforcement, homeland security and all the other communities. these are

americans from all throughout this country who have decided to give back to this country with public service and all these republicans in congress that continue to bend their knee to donald trump. they're they're so worried about keeping their own individual jobs, but they don't worry about the firing of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of americans. they use these terms bureaucratic bureaucrats and bureaucracies so cavalierly and pejoratively. these are americans who uproot their families frequently to try to again give back to this country in public service and the fact that this is being done so, so recklessly. you know, one day they're going to put, you know, some facilities up for sale. they they pull it back. so they just it's very clear they don't know what they're doing. and it's they're making it up as they go along. and that is so damaging to our country. >> director brennan, i appreciate your time. there's so much today. i mean, we didn't even get to the fact that apparently now america's negotiating with terrorists because we're speaking to hamas. we will chat again very soon.

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>> remember there are still. checks and balances. >> there's a lot being thrown. >> at the american people. >> right. >> now and it is really important. >> to pay. >> attention to it, but it is. >> just as important to recognize how many of those things are getting. >> announced. >> but they're not happening at. >> all. >> or at least. >> not yet. >> just try. >> to remember. >> we are not. looking at the. >> final score. we are still in the first quarter. keep your pads on. the game. >> has just begun. >> i think we're. >> being lied to. corporate leaders aren't killing diversity, equity and inclusion. they're actually doing something much worse. while the headlines

scream die is. >> over, the. >> reality is that many of these companies like amazon, target, meta, mcdonalds and others, they aren't actually cutting dei. they're doing a kind of sleight of hand, a kind of magic trick. they're rebranding. >> it as president trump has made ending dei programs. yet what is a dei program central to his second administration? a number of companies have already announced that they are rolling back or ending their dei initiatives. but as mother jones video correspondent garrison hayes points out, many of these companies are not actually dismantling these initiatives outright, but are in fact doing something more disingenuous and potentially more damaging. garrison hayes joins me now. garrison okay, there's a 40 day boycott of target that started on wednesday. it was initiated by black faith leaders. i'd like to note i haven't been a target. i didn't know that. i didn't know that the boycott was until this week. i haven't been in a number of weeks since the initiative was first announced. are you telling me that target actually still has a dei

initiative platform and that people have it wrong? >> well, what what. i'm saying is that they are trying to play it both ways. they are trying to do this kind of sleight of hand, as i describe. >> it, where. >> they're rebranding. >> and renaming and reorganizing their efforts around diversity, equity and inclusion. but they aren't. actually ending them. and i think, as i say, this is actually a little bit more dangerous. >> than ending. >> them outright, because what it does. >> is it convinces. >> the electorate, the american people, that donald trump is more powerful than he actually is. >> he can't tell. >> these companies to stop their hiring best practices. >> he can't. >> stop workplaces from from prioritizing belonging and inclusion. and so and so. i think it's dangerous what they're doing. >> i'm not saying. >> to not boycott, because it does seem as though they're comfortable with with casting. the black shopper aside in order to appease the maga mob. but i do think that what they're doing is really dangerous. and this is a time where courage is profoundly necessary to stand up

to the fascistic and authoritarian intentions of the president. >> and it's not just target. there are a number of companies that have engaged in this. try to have it both ways, as you call it. there is a timothy snyder has an amazing book on tyranny, and this is an excerpt about anticipatory obedience. it reads, do not obey in advance. most of the power of authoritarianism is freely given. in times like these individuals. think ahead about what a more repressive government will want and then offer themselves without being asked. a citizens who adapts in this way is teaching power what it can do. i feel that that is that is happening in this situation that is happening, and we can name a number of other things that are going on in our country right now that this applies to. there's historical context for this. people are obeying in advance. >> it does seem that way. it seems that that anticipatory obedience is exactly what is motivating these actions from

corporations. when you look at their website, you dig into what they do. you find this profound mismatch between the headlines that say that die is dead and their actual intentions. they often say we are still committed to belonging and still committed to inclusion, but they're wanting to signal, i think, to a certain portion of the american electorate that, hey, we are following in line with the anti die movement. and i do think that that is exactly as timothy snyder points out, teaching power, what it can do. they are allowing donald trump to pretend to be the authoritarian king that he desires to be, while when in reality, this is america and we have presidents and he does not have that kind of authority. and i think it's really important that in this time people stand up and say that very, very clearly. >> simone garrison hayes, folks, he has the most amazing like instagram and does all these videos that literally teach you so much about history, historical context, bringing the things together. i've learned a lot over the instagram years following you, and i feel like i

learned a lot tonight. so thank you for shining a little light on something that, frankly, we're all talking about. garrison hayes, appreciate your time. >> thanks for. >> having me, folks. that is all for this hour. again, i'm symone sanders townsend. i will see you once again tomorrow night at 7 p.m. eastern. we look forward to seeing you. but don't you go anywhere because all in with chris hayes starts right now. >> tonight on all in. >> this is. >> the chainsaw. >> for. >> bureaucracy to soar. elon musk. >> is told. >> to. >> put the. >> chainsaw down. >> with respect to people. i said i want to cut the people, but i want to keep the good people. >> tonight, why? the president is suddenly asking doge. >> to chill. >> a little. >> the state of. >> the resistance in trump's. second term with alex wagner. >> this administration. >> has proved itself to. >> be the most anti veteran