and i think that there has been a lack of specifics offered up by his treasury secretary and commerce secretary. again, actually, the usmca first reauthorization period was set to go into effect a year from this summer, summer of 2026, when many of these specifics on specific goods would be renegotiated and discussed between the three countries. and that is why that is taken aback. mexico and canada. the swiftness in implementing these tariffs a year out from those usmca renegotiations, of course, when prime minister justin trudeau is at the forefront of making some concessions to the united states as part of that usmca agreement seven years ago, and now swiftly within the first month and a half of this administration, going to the lengths to suggest that these key partners have taken advantage of the united states over the last years. >> all right. thank you both. that does it for us this hour. chris jansing report starts right now.

>> good day everyone. i'm chris jansing, live at msnbc headquarters in new york city. breaking news, economic turmoil, the dow all over the place today and on track for its worst week in two years as a disappointing jobs report. and trump's trade war send new shockwaves through the markets. and yet, the president just threw another tariff bomb. plus, who's the boss? the president says cabinet secretaries, not elon musk, should have the last word on hiring and firing. but there is one giant caveat we'll explain. and first came the blastoff, then the explosion. the faa forced to delay flights over florida after a spacex rocket blew up raining debris over the southern u.s. we'll explain what we know about what went wrong straight ahead. a lot to get to on a friday. but we start with

the president's all over the map approach to tariffs spooking markets and sapping consumer confidence. february's job report released today shows 151,000 jobs were added last month. that is fewer than expected, with unemployment ticking up to 4.1%. and keep in mind the bulk of doj's purge of federal workers won't even show up until next month's report. combine that with consumer confidence plummeting and the odds of a recession on the rise, all of it a stark contrast from where the economy was just two months ago. the new york times writing today, quote, the sudden deterioration in the outlook is striking, especially because it is almost entirely a result of mr. trump's policies and the resulting uncertainty. less than an hour ago, the fed chairman, jerome powell, joined economists, u.s. allies and everyday americans in seeking a better understanding of trump's policies and their impact. >> as we parse the incoming information, we are focused on separating the signal from the

noise. as the outlook. >> evolves. >> we do not need to be in a hurry, and we are well. positioned to wait for greater clarity. >> i want to bring in nbc's garrett hake, who's in toronto. ron insana is cnbc's senior analyst and ceo of ify ify i. charlie sykes is an msnbc contributor and columnist, and nbc's christine romans is here with me on set. okay, ron, you heard what chairman powell just said. what are business leaders telling you about this level of uncertainty? >> well. >> i mean, i think that's the key. >> word, chris. >> and neither. >> markets nor business. >> leaders like uncertainty. >> they would. >> prefer clarity. >> in and around. >> any changes in policy as, as jason. >> furman was saying in the. >> last hour, whether it's around business policy, fiscal policy, trade policy, a roadmap that's established and well understood allows for businesses to plan for the future. >> but this on. >> again, off again tariff and trade war that is ongoing is. >> creating all kinds.

>> of difficulties for businesses to make plans on, on procuring inputs for production here in the united states or exporting to, to other markets overseas. and so this this level of uncertainty is undesirable on a wide variety of fronts. even consumers are somewhat concerned about this. so for the moment, this is the order of the day. and until we get more clarity around what's going to happen, i would expect to see volatility in the financial markets for certain. i think jay powell made some calming statements about saying that the economy was in good shape, and that may have been what was behind the bounce off the lows that we saw today. but there is still a great concern about whether or not this trade war, as it were, is being conducted in a way that would help either markets or the economy overall. >> well, let me ask you, ron, about what we just heard from the president. we haven't gotten this what we call the play out yet, but we do have some pull notes about it. so trump started talking about canada and dairy products. he talked about a

tremendously high tariff on lumber. he said canada makes it impossible to sell lumber and dairy products to canada. so here's what he said then, ron. they'll be met with the exact same tariff. unless they drop it. we may do it as early as today. or we wait. we may wait until tuesday, potus said of yet other tariffs on canada. when folks out there hear that, whether you're jerome powell or you're a business owner or you're an everyday american who's watching their 401 k, what are you to make of that? >> well, look, it's just confusing for everybody. i mean, there is really no one out there who fully understands the method here. that is that is ongoing. i mean, look, as we said in the last hour, you know, in the last the renegotiation of nafta, the usmca, we picked up, you know, nearly a half a percent of market share of the canadian dairy market. and so, you know,

it was the usmca wasn't really all that different from nafta. there weren't great strides made that altered the course of trilateral trade among the us, mexico and canada. i think i think they're just more questions than there are answers. the automakers obviously went to the president and said, look, we import parts from canada, we import parts from mexico. we make final assembly here. having this type of on and off conversation is it disrupts their process of producing goods. and so it's hard to explain any of this because it is so, you know, to borrow a beatles term and the term associated with another event in american history. so helter skelter, i mean, we just really can't track what's going on here. and markets this week have suffered their worst declines in the last two years. so yeah, i it's hard to explain or make up what the president is suggesting. and you know, trying to renegotiate a year before we were supposed to with the with canada and mexico, one seems premature and also seems in many

ways not productive either for the economy or for financial markets here at home. >> which brings me to you, garrett. and again, i want to reiterate what the president just said, that there could be some new tariffs as early as today, or we may wait until tuesday. now that literally just happened. so i know you don't have time to get reaction to that. but already before he said that, what were folks in canada telling you? >> well. >> chris, let me just add that the white house's official policy on additional tariffs towards canada has been the steel and aluminum tariffs that could go into effect next week, and the so-called reciprocal tariffs that would go into effect on april 2nd. if they've created a whole new category in the last 24 hours, that wouldn't be terribly shocking. within the confines of how we think about the trump administration. but it would certainly be a surprise to people here in canada where i cannot overstate enough the sense of frustration and confusion and even betrayal. i've heard from canadians that their closest ally, america, would behave in this way towards

them both by imposing these tariffs and just the manner in which the president speaks about canada. a short time ago, i interviewed the premier of ontario, the largest province in canada, who's really been the tip of the spear on the canadian response. and his sort of key takeaways to me is as these issues tend to fluctuate back and forth, he's not removing canadian canada's response to the tariffs until he's totally confident that trump has backed down. and it seems like this war could only escalate. here's some of what doug ford told me a short time ago. >> it's more confusion. the only thing certain about. >> yesterday was uncertainty moving forward. and with investments in the us and canada, everything's stalled right now and. >> it's really. >> really concerning. so we're going to continue on. and i always say in every interview, canadians love americans, i love americans, we love the us. i lived there for 20 years. and this this is insanity. >> and chris, that's a sentiment

i've heard over and over again too, from canadians that they don't see sort of regular americans as responsible for this. they very much see president trump as responsible for this, but it's all of americans who are going to get punished. they're quite confident in canada that americans are going to lose their jobs over this. american companies are losing market share, $1 billion worth of american liquor, give or take, is sold in canada. those products are all pulled off the shelves right now. their bottom line will go down. and doug ford is talking about raising the prices for electricity that canada exports to new york and minnesota and other northern states. so this could get worse for american consumers, bottom line as well as canadians before it gets better. >> garrett. it looks very cold there. thank you for standing out in the cold for us and for sharing your reporting. it's important. appreciate it. christine, let me tell you a couple of anecdotal things i've heard in the last couple of days. and then you can give me the bigger picture. and it's simply this. it seemed like a few days ago, i had friends saying things like, well, i was thinking about buying this or that. i feel like i need to buy

it sooner because i don't know if prices are going to go up. and then that seemed to switch over the last 24 hours or so to maybe, i don't know if i should buy anything. i don't know what my economic future is. my 401 k is tanking. like, talk about the real effect on consumers and buying. >> so uncertainty is the enemy of decision making, right? whether you're a company or whether you're a person who's trying to make a big, you know, big ticket item purchase. but also chaos is really an enemy of, of confidence. and so that's what we're seeing right now for so many consumers and for businesses. when i talk to businesses, especially in the auto parts and the auto part of the economy, they're not going to be hiring a bunch of people this week, right? if they if they were thinking about expanding because they don't know what next month is going to look like, these are long supply, you know, long supply time industries that really are facing major chaos. and that causes a dampening of economic activity. and that's what we're watching here. you've got a real see, a real vibe shift from businesses and from consumers over the past couple of months.

and it's because of the chaos that's happening here. i'll make one last point about consumers. about half of americans own stocks directly. right. so you're seeing this wall street turmoil that's getting a lot of attention. everybody has to go to the grocery store. you have tariffs on 2,020% tariffs on chinese items. you have tariffs that are on some canadian and mexican goods. you have tariffs threatened on lumber and all these other things. prices will rise. that means every american will feel that. >> so charlie, let's talk about the political impact of the economic impact. and to do that, i want to play what the treasury secretary said on cnbc when asked about what we're seeing consumer confidence down, stock market down and the overall impact. here's here's that. >> could we be seeing that the this economy that we inherited starting to roll a bit. sure. and look there's going to be a natural adjustment as we move away from public spending to

private spending. the market and the economy have just become hooked. if we become addicted to this government spending and there's going to be a detox period. >> so i'm going to, you know, talk to the experts on the economic part of that, which is this switchover that they see away from government spending, but just from an empathy to talk about this as just a detox period when the average american is hurting, how does that play, do you think that's he's not the first one to give an answer that did not seem to include how the american people are being impacted by this. >> yeah. i'm not. >> sure this is what voters voted for last year. this kind of. detox pain, you know, and i don't think that they voted. for the. >> kind of. >> whiplash and confusion. i think there are a lot of voters who thought, okay, we'll have a little bit of disruption, but. >> what you. >> are seeing is government by whim. donald trump is, i.

>> think. >> enjoying the. >> chaos because he he wakes up every. morning and. decides who he wants to punish and who he wants to reward. >> but for millions. >> of americans who are out in the real. >> world. >> i mean. this is. incredibly disconcerting. >> do you buy a car? do you not buy a car? you've had this. >> discussion, and there's no reason to. >> believe that this. uncertainty is going. >> to end. because this is donald trump. >> this you know, he. >> is the government. >> right now. >> he is the decision maker. >> and you. >> are. >> seeing the way that that his. >> positions change with the wind. >> with his. >> mood. >> with whatever it is. so that chaos. >> and that uncertainty is baked into the. reality that. >> we live in. right now. and, and quite frankly. >> that leads to. >> all sorts of unpredictable. >> reactions. >> including the downstream effects. you know. >> i think that a lot of americans. >> may like what goes on in washington, but everybody's going to be affected by this. this is. >> going to have an effect on. >> every single.

>> household, every. >> single community, every single state. >> and right. >> now. >> it looks like there's a possibility that. >> he may break something. >> that seemed unbreakable just a few. >> months ago. >> well, let me play for you, charlie. what a couple of republican senators have to say about all this. >> almost every industry. >> in kentucky has come to me and said it will hurt our industry and push up prices of homes and cars. and so i'm going to continue to argue against tariffs. >> i'm worried about the tariffs. we're in uncharted waters. i think if the tariffs do start to cause inflation, i think the president will, will will back away from them. >> will he do you think, charlie, where does the political conversation go next. where are the pressure points. >> well my first reaction is if only. >> they had been warned about this. >> if there's. >> one consistent thing. >> in donald trump's career. >> it's been. >> his his fetish for. >> for tariffs. >> i don't know that anyone can

be surprised by this or surprised. >> that, in fact, that they. are taxes. >> on on consumers. >> and. >> that they are inflationary. >> what is donald trump going to do right now? no one knows. >> he's very. >> very reactive. >> to the stock market and to the polls, though. >> but on the other hand, he. >> is committed. >> to these this these kinds of policies. and keep. >> in mind that on the one hand, while he's on. >> again, off again, he continues. >> to also. >> be relying upon the tariffs to create the kind. >> of. >> revenue that he needs for. >> the budget. >> and the and the other tax cuts. so this is not easily resolved. but again, it was exactly. what donald trump said he was going to do. and i'm kind of amazed that republicans say that. >> they were amazed. >> what did. they expect? >> let me go back, christine, if i can, for a minute to what we heard just a very short time ago about from the treasury secretary, which is this shift. right. well, there's going to be this period of adjustment, this detox period, because we have to get away from the economy

driven, being driven by the federal government and more toward business. if that's truly the goal, is it a little bit more maybe than a detox period? and what does that have to do? because he was asked about the tariffs. what does that have to do with tariffs anyway? >> well, that's the question that i have as well. because if you want private industry to really be the driver, it's private industry that has this global supply chain. so it can be really efficient and can compete around the world. right? i mean, so now you're hurting private industry. you're hurting the big three automakers with the tariffs. so how does that replace the government spending? i think that it's all so swift and dramatic that that's what is really troubling for so many, so many businesses to try to grapple with. and also they don't feel like they're seeing the strategy from the president. they see him very doubling down on tariffs and then backing away and then a u-turn and then maybe this maybe not this. this is about drugs. no, this is about reshoring u.s, u.s. manufacturing. it's only about drugs. it's about reshoring.

they don't see what the through line is and what the end goal is. >> the wall street journal, as you know, ron, has been pretty brutal. i think every day they have had some kind of editorial board commentary on how bad they think this is. here's from today's because us-mexico-canada rules are so complicated businesses that sometimes chosen to pay a tariff on a given product instead of a spending the time and money to figure out whether it is compliant. that's according to trade experts. where is this going next, ron? >> you know, i don't know. i personally would agree with charlie on this that i think philosophically, the president has a certain degree of love, as he himself has said on many times, that tariff is the most beautiful word in the dictionary and keeps referencing the period of the united states from 1890 to 19, 1870 to 1913, in which we had no income tax and we had tariffs as a source of revenue in order to equal the income tax with tariff revenues, you'd have to have 220% tariffs on all

goods coming into the united states. so i think he's wedded to this philosophically. i don't think this is a negotiating ploy. and i think this may play out in ways that people don't currently understand and or anticipate. so i'm not sure that this is a short term thing. i don't think it's a negotiating strategy. i do think, as is the case with nato and with other relationships, that the united states has, the president and everyone around him is talking about altering the post-world war two order with respect, by the way, to what treasury secretary said on cnbc, cnbc this morning with respect to detoxing, if you're going to cut $888 billion from the budget in order to cut taxes or extend the tax cuts that exist, those are likely to fall mostly on medicaid and food stamp recipients. and so that detox is not going to redound to the benefit of the economy by any stretch of the imagination. so i would take issue with that as well, along with all the confusion surrounding trade

tariffs and other fiscal policies being debated right now. >> okay, so we said a little bit earlier that the president was talking about tariffs and possible other tariffs for canada that just played out. so let's listen to what the president said. this is his latest statement in a series of conflicting statements about tariffs. >> because canada has been ripping us off for years on tariffs for lumber and for dairy products, 250%. nobody ever talks about that 250% tariff, which is taking advantage of our farmers. so that's not going to happen anymore. we're going to be they'll be met with the exact same tariff unless they drop it. and that's what reciprocal means. and we may do it as early as today, or we'll wait till monday or tuesday. but that's what we're going to do. we're going to charge the same thing. it's not fair. it never has been fair. and they've treated our farmers badly. look, our country

has been ripped off by everybody and that stops now. i had it stopped in the my first term. and we're going to really stop it now. >> one of the things he said, christine, was fair. that's not fair. so i'm reminded that peter navarro, counselor to the president, did say today that tariffs are all about restoring fairness from a political standpoint as well as an economic standpoint, that the word sounds good, right? the argument sounds good. who doesn't want the world to be a fair playing field? in reality, though, what he just said, what does that mean? >> well. >> how do you define fair? >> right, exactly. if you're a country of 30 million people next to a country with 300 million people, and you drop all of your trade barriers for your own farmers, you put your farms out of business. if you're if you're a domestic government, you want to make sure you have farmers, right? i mean, so you can see why some of these trade barriers come up. but this is

what the trade negotiation process is all about. they already argued all of this during usmca when the president, president trump, dumped nafta and redesigned it. maybe it didn't go as far as he wanted. maybe, you know, the art of the deal wasn't the deal that he actually wanted last time. and he wants to redo it again. it's up for renegotiation next summer. but that's why you have trade deals between countries, so that you can air all of this out and figure out what is fair. every category is a little different. different countries have comparative advantages. so it's really interesting that the president just wants to put up these barriers right now and start a new era of protectionism, really, for the united states. >> ron johnson, charlie sykes, christine romans, as i said on a very busy friday. thank you all in 90s. here's a question. who's in charge? the president adding confusion to the power struggle between elon musk and his between elon musk and his cabinet when bad allergies attack... ♪♪ trust claritin to keep you in the game. ♪♪ nothing is proven more powerful

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quote, incensed, as well as a back and forth with transportation secretary sean duffy about the state of the faa's equipment. the president told secretaries in that meeting that they are in charge of their departments, not elon musk, including job cuts. his message be very precise and use a scalpel rather than a hatchet. but then the president suggested their power only goes so far. musk could come back in. joining us now, nbc's aaron gilchrist, reporting from washington, dc. sam stein is managing editor at the bulwark. aaron, give us the context of where this all stands between the president, elon musk, and who's in charge. >> yeah. >> chris, i think the. >> narrative you just went through really adds some color to what we've been seeing play out, confusingly, to be honest, over the last several weeks, we've seen these executive orders and memos come from from the white house, from the office of personnel management, from omb. that would seem to suggest that the agencies, the secretaries needed to be doing these things to be in compliance

with executive orders that the president signed. but in practice, we know that we've seen in so many cases, elon musk and his doge team actually effectuating some of the changes that have been happening over the last several weeks. if you remember that email that went out, i think it was on a saturday evening to federal workers that said, you need to send us your list of five things, and then a post on social media from elon musk after that. that said, these people could be could be essentially be fired. and then after that, we saw a lot of the federal agencies, state department, fbi, others saying, wait a minute, you don't have to reply to this email just yet. and so that, i think, was the first outward sign of this power struggle that we've seen. and now you have this meeting where the president says to the secretaries, hiring and firing is on you. i want you to keep the best people around and get rid of folks who don't need to be around, who are not mission critical. as the language that we've seen in some of these documents. i want you to hear a little bit more of what the president had to say after that meeting yesterday, and after he

posted on his truth social site about making sure the secretaries are running the show. >> i want the cabinet members to keep good people. i don't want to see a big cut where a lot of good people are cut. i want the cabinet members go first. keep all the people you want, everybody that you need, and it would be better if they were there for two years instead of two weeks, because in two years they'll know the people better. but i want them to do the best job they can. elon and the group are going to be watching them, and if they can cut, it's better. and if they don't cut, then elon will do the cutting. >> now, we've heard elon musk say on more than one occasion now we will make mistakes. and talking about his doge team and the work that they're doing, going through all the federal agencies and assessing their bookkeeping, assessing their staffing, he said. we will make mistakes and then we will correct them. you have to think that that's not something that's consistent with the way that president trump typically talks about making mistakes and things of that nature. and we've seen where many people have been

fired from different agencies, in some cases more than 100, and then have had to be rehired. something that you have to imagine the president is not is not a sort of mistake that president trump would want to see happening. chris. and so now this puts the hiring and firing, at least publicly, squarely in the hands of the secretaries, who, in theory, would know their agency's best. >> erin, thank you for that. okay, sam, there's a lot to deconstruct here, but let me start with this. i don't know how clearly that message or whatever the message was, was clear to members of the cabinet. here's what we do know. elon musk has the president's ear. just this week, his pac spent, i think, $1 million on ads saying, thank you, mr. president. you're doing a great job. and he also controls a little thing called x, which could be used against any individual member of the cabinet. where does that leave them? where are we in all this? what are you hearing?

>> well, that certainly hangs over all of this. in this new york times. >> story, for instance. >> it's reported. >> that several other cabinet. >> officials were. >> inclined to. >> speak up. >> against musk. and in support of rubio and duffy. >> but they were almost. >> worried. >> to a degree, at the way that musk both reacted to rubio and, frankly, by the fact that musk is the richest. >> person in the. >> world. has shown that. >> he's willing to. >> spend prodigiously. >> in politics. >> and controls. >> x, a platform where. >> much of the. >> political discourse is. playing out in real time. >> and so. >> yeah, that is a threat unlike anything we've seen politically before. it used to be that it was trump who. >> was the. >> one who could threaten these. >> people, but now it's. obviously trump. and musk himself. >> so. >> you know, this does color things. ultimately. i don't know where this leads us, right? i mean, it's an extraordinary moment to have actual cabinet secretaries in a cabinet meeting having to defend their turf from

an unelected official who has been empowered by the president to basically dismantle government. and this is just really extraordinary time. and sometimes we lose that in these discussions over these micro dramas between these individual personalities. >> and the other thing, frankly, is it has been, let's call it a whirlwind series of weeks. if you work for the federal government, you know, do i have a job? don't i have a job? oh, i got fired. oh, they just called me back. what are you hearing about that? because, you know, we played earlier a couple of the republican senators who are very concerned about the impact in their states of this back and forth on tariffs. but employees, there are federal employees all across the country. >> yeah. this i've heard from dozens upon dozens of employees and lawmakers and advocates in the impact of these indiscriminate cuts is profound. and you can tell because some of these cuts have been had, they've had to reverse. right? i mean, when you go and fire the

nuclear weapons and waste specialists out in los alamos and then you realize, oh my god, this could be bad, you have to rehire them. and it's not always easy to rehire people. so i talked to some officials who work in overseas foreign aid operations, treating things like ebola and malaria. right. and they have had to shed staff as this has happened. and then suddenly they get word that, no, in fact, you can actually spend this money, this is critical aid and we should go for it. well, they've already fired the staffers. and not only that, there are other agencies and groups that they depend on to effectuate their mission that have not been given the green light to go forward. so this is all compounding problems. and then you get to the personnel, and this is where it really gets sad, almost not sad, almost sad. i've talked to countless people who've lost their jobs and their jobs where their livelihoods. we talked to one person whose wife and he both work for the government, and she lost the job, and he was a probationary employee waiting to see if he would be fired. imagine, in the

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seeing all across social media of the aftermath of it, because for those of you who watched the seventh test flight in january, it looks almost identical to what we. saw here. so you're going to see those videos potentially in just a moment. but our. understanding early. >> indications suggest. that this happened. around 9.5. >> minutes. >> after launching. and so you can see. >> that. >> is starship right there. >> those are. >> the. videos of the aftermath, the debris. >> so what. >> we are hearing from spacex. is that it appears that they lost the engines. you could kind of see that on the live feed, the live stream as this was happening, and that caused the vehicle to essentially lose control orientation, if you will. they call it attitude that spacex talk for orientation of the ship. and then they lost communication shortly after. that is, of course, when we all assume that it started to break apart, causing what we saw, those effects, those videos of it breaking apart. and so there was a lot of impacts on the ground because we saw those different airports, those major hubs in the state of florida, several of them had a ground stop for different airports.

those ground stops were lifted within 47, 45 minutes or so. chris. but this is something that investigators are going to be taking a look at. we know elon musk had posted to social media that it appears there was a failure with the upper stage, and that is something that they tried to fix from the first time. so a lot that they're going to have to learn from this next go around. and of course, this is grounded, chris, pending an investigation by the faa once again. but i will note everyone is keeping an eye on spacex crew ten launch this upcoming week. that is totally separate, unrelated, still slated to go off on wednesday, which of course will affect butch and sunday. those two astronauts ability to come back home. chris, back to you. >> marissa parra thank you. well, still ahead on the front lines of putin's war in ukraine, nbc's keir simmons got an up close look at where the conflict stands now. he joins us live from moscow next. >> i heard. >> you found someone special. >> yeah. >> is that dog. >> food in the fridge? it's not dog food. it's fresh pet. real

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settlement, it may be easier dealing with russia, which is surprising because they have all the cards. i mean, and they're bombing the hell out of them right now. and i put a statement in a very strong statement, can't do that. >> in fact, his comments come hours after ukraine said that russia carried out a widespread missile and drone attack on the energy grid, hobbling their ability to deliver heat to citizens and to power weapons facilities. nbc's keir simmons is reporting from moscow. i know you got an exclusive look from near the front lines. what did you learn there, keir? >> well, that's right, chris. what we learned, honestly, is that president trump may have promised a quick cease fire, but there are a lot of challenges on the russian side. so much focus has been on ukraine. it's a mixed message there, isn't it, from president trump, on the one hand, seeming to want to put pressure on russia, threatening more sanctions, on the other hand saying he's finding russia easier to deal with than

ukraine, where he has put enormous pressure. so we traveled about eight miles, eight hours from here in moscow to kursk. that is a region used as a jumping off point, if you like, for tanks and artillery. during president putin's february 2022 invasion of ukraine. there you see the city of kursk. and look how used to war people have become there. chris so that's air raid sirens. the cars keep driving, the people just keep walking around. there are air raid shelters. we didn't see anyone run to any of them. we spoke to local people in a village in a town called rylsk, which is about 90 minutes from kursk. there the mayor of reels told us he does want peace, but he also said we must liberate our territory. after ukraine invaded ukrainian territory in response to russia's invasion, that that ukrainian offensive last year, a construction worker told us that

zelenskyy is to blame for everything. he said everything rests on zelenskyy and not on putin. now, we should obviously mention that there is draconian legislation here in russia. that means that people can be jailed for 15 years for criticizing the russian army or the conflict. but what we did find from talking to people in that town close to the front line, is that many do believe that while they want peace, they at the same time do not want to compromise. one young man told us, president trump is wonderful. they are hoping that president trump can help put an end to the war. but they are, from what they say, raising many questions about how possible that really is. >> keir simmons, thank you. and up next, why new comments from california governor gavin newsom are already sending signals are already sending signals about the presidential race in

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an. >> issue of fairness. so it's deeply. i revere sports. >> and so. >> the issue of. >> fairness is. >> completely legit. there's also a humility and. >> grace. >> you know, that that these poor people are more likely to commit suicide. have anxiety and depression. and the way. >> that people talk. >> down to vulnerable communities is an. >> issue that i. >> have a. >> hard time with as well. so both things i can hold in my hand. >> politico puts it in broader terms than today's culture wars, writing, quote, newsom's move on trans athletes jolts the 2028 campaign. i want to bring in msnbc host and associate editor of the washington post, jonathan capehart. also with us, former adviser to george w bush and john mccain, mark mckinnon. so, jonathan, look, newsom isn't just a blue state governor. he's been a gay rights warrior for decades, right? he's been i think he was one of the first public officials to officiate at a gay wedding. right. what does this say about 2028? and maybe the perceived lessons of 2024?

>> so to. >> pick up on what. >> you were just pointing out, this is a. >> big. >> deal, because gavin. >> newsom, when. >> he was mayor of san francisco, infuriated the party back. then when he started issuing marriage licenses to same. >> sex couples in. contravention to what the law said at the. >> time. >> and then turned out. >> to be. >> at the forefront. and i think. >> what the governor. >> is doing. here is he's. >> diving headlong. >> into an. >> issue that. >> cost the democrats and. >> cost the. >> harris campaign some votes. the transgender. >> issue, as horrible as the trump. campaign made, that issue, was. >> an. >> issue that. >> hurt democrats and hurt. >> the harris campaign. >> what's striking about what the governor. is doing, though. >> is, you know, he talks. >> about this as an issue. >> of fairness. >> and i. listened to the podcast. he did. >> not explain further. >> well, what exactly do you mean by fairness? and you can't

just say that it's an issue of fairness, but also. >> we can't. >> be a part of talking down to vulnerable communities, communities where. suicide and things like that. are are higher. he's got to talk more about that, because this is an issue that democrats are going to have to figure out how to discuss in ways that are compassionate, but also in ways that address the concerns out there in the country. because when it comes to transgender issues, it reminds. >> me. >> chris. >> of the way people talked about gay and lesbian issues 20, 30 years ago as they learned about the issue. the acceptance came along. and i think the governor, given his lgbtq pedigree, could have done a better job of explaining further. >> what he meant. >> from a political standpoint. mark, there's this i mean, there's this new york times ipsos poll. it was just in january. 79% of americans,

including more than two thirds of democrats, opposed allowing transgender women to compete in in women's sports. does it make it easier for other democrats then, because gavin newsom did it with his pedigree on gay rights to do this? i mean, is this the first culture war line we're seeing ahead of 2028 for democrats? >> well, chris. in all. >> my. >> experience in politics. >> the one issue that. >> i found that that. >> is pervasive across party lines. is this issue of fairness. >> it's just a very fundamental american thing. and it doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, black or white, republican or democrat. >> there is there's. >> just a fundamental issue. >> americans believe. >> there should be a fair and balanced. opportunity for. >> people, not outcomes. >> and i'll. >> take a shot at it, jonathan. >> i mean, i. >> think it's i know. people don't. >> want transgender athletes who have a genetic. biological advantage.

>> to compete in women's sports. it's pretty simple. and that's why i think you see those polling results. >> and this. >> is. >> just common sense. >> and so. >> i like. >> how. >> he. balanced it with with talking about the vulnerability of those communities. but you. >> can't give them an unfair. >> advantage biologically in. >> a. >> sport against females. i mea, that's. i don't. >> think that's very complicated. >> jonathan, can i, can i just i want to officially say that the human rights campaign has weighed in on the other side of this. then i'll get your response to that. our message to the office of california governor gavin newsom and all leaders across the country is simple. the path to 2028 isn't paved with the betrayal of vulnerable communities. it's built on the courage to show up for what's right and do the hard work to actually help the american people. i guess that, you know what kelly robinson is saying can sound like what gavin newsom said, which is we have to

be, you know, we have to talk about vulnerable communities. we have to have grace to vulnerable communities. but that is a different thing than saying, yes, you can compete. so where does that leave the political argument, jonathan? >> yeah. >> well, i. >> think we're. at the beginning. >> of trying to figure out what the political argument is. and, you know. >> mark, i was. >> trying to jump in there because. >> i think. part of the. >> issue here is you're stating definitively about a biological advantage that a transgender woman would have over, quote unquote, biological over a biological woman. and we as non-scientists, non-doctors you and i, but also the nation, we don't know if what you actually what you said is actually true. and this is what i'm getting at. this is why, gavin, governor newsom would have done a disservice if he talked more, if he talked more about what do you mean by fairness and bring the

facts and the science, if he had them to the conversation. and so i think, if anything, what the governor has done, i hope, is kick start a conversation, a substantive, compassionate, fact based conversation about about transgender americans, but also a thoughtful one, really a truly thoughtful one. getting views from from everywhere, but particularly from from doctors and scientists about this nature, about this issue of transgender women competing in women's sports. do they really have an advantage? >> jonathan capehart, as always, thank you, my friend. i have a feeling maybe we'll hear that on your show at one time or another, if not this weekend. mark, you're staying with us. and still ahead. police are set to hold a press conference on the mysterious deaths of gene hackman and his wife. we'll go hackman and his wife. we'll go live to new mexico with a with fatigue and light-headedness, i knew something was wrong.

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