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dennehy, left his office for the last time on thursday. we showed you some of this late yesterday to the sound of bagpipes and cheers. he says. he was forced to retire after he pushed back against the trump administration's demand that the fbi hand over the names of agents who worked on january 6th cases. here's what he had to say to his former colleagues. >> there's a motto in. >> the. >> marine corps no. called semper fidelis, and semper fidelis means always faithful. >> i will always. >> be faithful to this country, to. this organization, and most of all, i will always be faithful to you. and i appreciate you being faithful to me, to this office, and more importantly, our mission. so thank you and i will be your best cheerleader on the outside, i appreciate it. >> so that man loyal to the country and the bureau had to leave abruptly. and that abrupt

departure moves the trump doj closer to what they talk about doing. closer to what the far right and trump's allies have promised to do. a commitment said out loud to make dramatic, revolutionary changes there, and to do what everyone who fears about the future of the rule of law in our country sees as a threat to the institution that serves essential functions to protect our national security and our justice system. there's brand new reporting in the new york times today about one of the men now in charge, the incoming deputy director of the fbi. he's a former secret service agent, a podcaster and a right wing media personality named dan bongino. that reporting reveals his intense interest with conspiracy theories about the fbi, however baseless, as long as they serve the narratives pushed by donald trump about a justice system seemingly weaponized against him. new york times reports this, quote bongino's precise

plans for the agency remain opaque, but on recent podcasts, he has said he would rid the agency of politicization and focus on crimes like drug dealing. despite the bureau's broad mandate to protect national security, investigate crimes and root out corruption by public officials at all levels, bongino has frequently focused on fbi officials who, in his mind, showed disloyalty to trump by pursuing investigations against him or his supporters. here's what he said after trump was indicted in the classified documents case. >> we fire. >> everyone who. >> stood by. >> we don't just. fire the people who did this. everyone who stood by and did nothing. >> while the department. >> of justice and the fbi been ravaged. ravaged by corrupt theocrats. everyone gets fired. everyone. if you stood by and did nothing. >> that's how. >> fire everyone. never mind that the agents, all of the

agents involved, were simply doing their jobs as their jobs were defined by their leaders. no wrongdoing has ever been found in that investigation, and the charges were only dismissed because donald trump won the november election. not to mention that mass firings would hamper the critical functions of the fbi, the things it does every day. if anything, bongino's comments about the agency he is now in charge of, he now leads reveals a contempt for the country's top law enforcement agency. >> ladies and gentlemen, the fbi is an absolute disaster. it is an abomination to the country. the corruption needs to be immediately defunded. the fbi should not no no longer exist as it's constituted now. the mission should be divvied up. the money should be divvied up amongst other agencies that take their oath to the country seriously. >> he said those things again about an fbi being led at the time by a hand-picked a person

hand-picked by donald trump, christopher wray. but today, the fbi is in the hands of mr. bongino and other trump allies who are laser focused on retribution on behalf of donald trump. it's where we start today, new york times justice department reporter glenn thrush is here. also joining us, former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi and msnbc, senior national security analyst frank figliuzzi is here with me at the table, msnbc legal analyst, former s.d.n.y. criminal division deputy chief christie greenberg is here. glenn, let me start with james dennehy, an extraordinary message sent by him to the men and women of the fbi on his way out. the description of sort of a day in the life where in the morning you wear a suit for an interview, in the afternoon you get changed for a swat arrest

and, you know, in the evening there's another interview and then wash, rinse, repeat. this was someone who loved his job. this was someone who loved the men and women he did his job with. this is someone who loved the country. this is someone who was a veteran. this is someone whose politics are, to me, indiscernible but clearly do not resemble anything. partizan. and this is someone who was purged from the fbi. what does that mean? >> well. >> the. >> other thing, the. >> thing that's. really interesting about. >> this is. >> he is probably the kind. >> of guy, if there. >> had not. >> been the. mar-a-lago search. >> which, as you. >> rightly pointed out. was not. >> in the decision. >> matrix at the fbi. it was. >> a court mandated. >> search, and it is the. responsibility of federal law. >> enforcement and the fbi to execute that. if they had. chosen not to, they would have been in violation. >> of the law.

>> but he's precisely. >> the kind. >> of guy you. >> could easily. >> see ascending. >> to one of the top. >> positions in the bureau. >> if none of. >> this. >> had ever happened. >> what's really interesting. >> about the whole bongino. >> dynamic and the trump. dynamic is that prior to the comey. >> experience in. >> 20, in 2016. >> and 2017, you know, trump had been on record being very speaking. >> very. >> positively about federal law enforcement, about the fbi over the course of the last five, six. >> seven, eight. >> years that that tune has changed. >> and. >> you know. >> when i see. >> those scenes of. >> him getting into. >> the into the suv around foley square and it betrays kind of my history as a new yorker and as a reporter in new york. he was. motivated to join the marines after nine over 11. one of my most. >> vivid memories. >> as a. >> reporter covering the attack on the world trade center was being. >> in that exact. spot where he. >> was standing. >> which. >> was then covered by ash. >> and debris.

>> and watching. >> the fbi agents from. >> the new york field office fan. >> out over lower manhattan to begin their investigation. so it's a. very resonant moment, particularly when you see the bagpipes, not only for people who are interested in the future and. >> the. >> fate of the bureau, but also to those of us who had an experience around nine over 11 with the new york field office and saw firsthand what those agents there were able to accomplish. >> what is your reporting, glenn, on his intent in that, you know, top ten list, that he put out the ten best things about being an fbi agent? >> i think. >> you know, it. was a. big surprise to us. >> and i. >> if i'm remembering correctly, it. >> was a saturday. >> it was either a friday night or a saturday when we obtained my fellow reporters and i obtained this internal email that he sent to his staff at the field office, essentially referring to the famous dig in

email in which he expressed his determination to resist. along with the interim leadership of the fbi. what? emil bove, the acting deputy attorney general, was attempting to push, which was to provide the list the names of thousands of agents with the intention of isolating those who had participated not only in the trump investigations but the january 6th investigations, which which came as a big surprise to all of us. i think what he is attempting to do is to set out a template and a predicate, and ten is a very. ten is a very biblical number. i'm i'm reminded of sort of the movie the ten commandments. to sort of hold. i think what he's attempting to do, essentially, is to hold the incoming leadership, including dan bongino, accountable to these standards so that there's something external. against

which to measure what they're intending to do. >> here's what he wrote. we will not bend. we will not falter. we will not sacrifice what is right for anything or anyone. you guys reported this in the email. he used pointed language that echoed this earlier message. i've been told many times in my life, when you find yourself in a hole, sometimes it's best to quit digging. screw that. i will never stop defending this joint. i'll just do it willingly and proudly. from the from outside the wire. the circumstances of his being forced to resign have been the subject of a lot of your reporting, and i have to confess, i still don't completely understand it. what did he do? >> in terms of his resignation? >> why did they? why did they make him leave? >> it is not clear. >> again, as i. >> think you pointed out, and we've seen this with the forced transfers in the fbi field office. we've seen it at the fbi

headquarters, we've seen it at main justice, and we've seen it in the d.c. u.s. attorney's office. and we just reported two of our reporters just reported that two senior prosecutors at s.d.n.y, the office that defied main justice's push to dismiss the adams charges, have been put on leave and escorted out of the building. so this is going on across all levels. but what he did was resist, and he was in a position where they could compel his retirement. and i think he he was fortunate. i think a lot of people who are leaving, particularly the less senior people at the department of justice, are leaving into a more uncertain future, both in terms of their pensions and also in terms of what is turning out to be a very glutted market in law firms for them to obtain employment in. >> do you have any more information about what you just alluded to? the additional forced resignations today? >> yeah. >> i just i just actually just

came across these are two of the senior deputies to danielle sassoon, who were who essentially resisted emil bove's attempts to get them to sign on to the dismissal of the adams, the adams documents, which eventually beauvais himself was forced to sign, along with a member of the public integrity unit in washington who did not appear in court and essentially did it to forestall a mass exodus of career officials in washington. so these are two other people who, along with sassoon, had resisted and bove, both in his communications with sassoon and others, has indicated that this was the route he was the department was likely to pursue. >> frank figliuzzi the fantastic reporting on mr. bongino is actually a body of reporting that started last friday. i think it was in the friday new

york times and friday wall street journal about kash patel actually his his first call. there were details that he shared with the workforce about not wearing a suit, about working out of a west coast office, about bringing some sort of fighting into the w. i don't know the mall, ufc or wwe, something like that. and then and we didn't get to that reporting a week ago because of the zelenskyy ambush. but today there's almost the, the echo of some profiling of mr. bongino. what's amazing is that sandwiched in between some new information, at least to the general public, about the two men leading the fbi, is the stark resignation of james dennehy. i'll read more from his resignation letter. all late friday, i was informed that i needed to put my retirement papers in today, which i did. i was not given a reason for this decision. and the bagpipe exit yesterday just seems to

punctuate the changing of the guard at this vital, vital institution that you were once a part of the fbi. your thoughts? >> yeah. >> i've got i've got. >> some surprise. >> first, with regard to that. >> all employees phone call. >> from patel. >> is first. >> one to. >> the field. >> it came across. according to numerous sources, as. >> meandering, disjointed. >> and confusing. >> you mentioned him inserting. >> kind of randomly that he's toying. >> with the idea of. >> bringing the. >> ufc mixed. >> martial arts. >> fighters in to train agents. yeah, that may seem like. >> a. minor thing. >> but it's not. >> it's reflective of. >> a. >> greater mindset. >> which is, look, i joined the fbi. >> as most. >> agents. >> do. >> to fight crime, fight for justice, not. >> to fight. and so. >> yes, the training. >> is extensive at quantico to learn how to arrest people who about a third of your time at

the fbi and there's various. compliance holds. >> and submission. >> holds. >> but it's not. >> ufc fighting. >> it's not the goal is not. >> to. >> inflict as much pain as possible on the. >> person who's resisting, but. >> rather to. >> not violate their. >> civil rights and still go home in one piece. that's that's. the goal. >> of the training. >> and the physical. >> training there. so a whole new mindset that really expands. >> to a larger thing. >> we now have two conspiracy theorists running the fbi. dan bongino has repeatedly said things. >> like. >> i think the fbi knows who planted the pipe bombs on on the night of january 5th in washington, d.c. and isn't telling us, well, i, i wait with bated breath to have bongino announce. >> publicly. >> finally, who planted the pipelines. please tell. >> us, with. >> regard to his comments repeatedly, that the fbi planned and executed the insurrection on january 6th, i await his announcement as to who did that.

>> and why. >> if that's true, 16 1500 people. were arrested, many of them convicted for doing it as. >> they. >> live streamed it. on their social media. >> accounts. >> assaulting police officers. i didn't know those were fbi agents and somehow trump pardoned all of them. it's very confusing, but i'm sure bongino will make it crystal clear when he finally gets into the office. >> so i'm speaking obviously sarcastically, because this is a crazy time for the fbi. and you're right to contrast it with the exit of dennehy in new york, who likely would have gone on if he wanted to become a deputy director. number two person in the fbi, somebody who's really respected as an agent. and now out the door and i think in a position to really do some good, why did he have to resign? look, the best sources that i have are saying, look, he had the audacity in the mind of doj to actually write a letter to the office early on, his first letter to the office saying, we're going to dig in. we're in

a battle now. and they felt they couldn't allow him to continue in that in that position. he was too respected to be resisting, so they had to get rid of him. this this idea that pam bondi concocted, that somehow the new york office was hiding epstein files. i can't find a single person to tell me. yeah, they're still remaining files that that they're hiding. i don't find anyone who's saying that. that was a, in my opinion, a concocted method to blame him and get him out any way they could. >> i want to apologize to both frank and glenn for our technical challenges. i believe it's on our end. i apologize to both of you and to our viewers, but we hung on to every word. thank you for bearing with us. kristy, i want to bring you on this in on this. i mean, this is an office that you were a part of. i've covered it for a long time, but just explain how how vital this fbi field office and this prosecutor's office, which

the new trump team has gutted. they've removed mr. dennehy, they've they've run out miss sassoon and everyone who is part of this and tell me if there's anything personal involved. this was mr. beauvais's old office. >> yeah. i mean, i look at this idea that. oh, s.d.n.y and prosecutors and fbi and the new york field office, these people are all weaponized against republicans. really? because let's look at what they did over the past few years. they prosecuted a sitting senator who was a democrat, and they prosecuted the mayor of new york city, who's a democrat. they actually didn't go forward and charge rudy giuliani. they didn't charge donald trump with anything in new york. that didn't happen. so where is the weaponization? where is it? and this idea that that dan bongino is going to come in and he's talking about defunding the agency? well, and giving some of that money to other agencies, that just shows you right there, this guy clearly never had any fbi experience, because nobody

who ever had been an agent would be talking about diminishing resources from that agency. it's just an absurd thing to say. i mean, this is a guy who was for years as an nypd officer. he was at the secret service, but most of that was protective detail, which is very different. what fbi does, which is investigate federal crimes. i mean, he really does not have the experience. he wasn't even a manager at the secret service or at the nypd. i mean, he was he was a line agent. and so for now, him to be the number two at fbi and talk about fire, everybody who's been there who has way more experience than he does. if you're totally unqualified, wouldn't you think you'd want to learn from these people? instead? he wants to attack them. he wants to fire them, and he wants to defund them. and how does that get you where you say you want to go, which is dealing with violent crime, which, by the way, that's fine. donald trump and his doj get to set what priorities they want to focus on. if they want to focus on violent crime, that's fine. but how are you

doing that? how are you accomplishing that goal? by defunding. and just the last piece, about a mile above, he's somebody who's come into doj and in his dealings with fbi, with james danahy and in his dealings with danielle sassoon, you see these memos and over and over again, i mean, you kind of chuckle at some point. it's always insubordination. he's that guy that everybody has met in their life who gets just some power. and once they get that taste of power, that's it. they hold on, they're high on it. and you know, this idea that everybody is being insubordinate, he doesn't want to work with anybody. he doesn't want to even pick up the phone. he's writing these lengthy memos like, this isn't a guy who knows how to manage a department of justice dealing with thousands of people. he just he clearly doesn't have the interpersonal skills to be able to handle this. and so, yeah, he lashes out. that's what these memos are, just lashing out against career officials who are doing nothing other than doing their jobs. >> it's an amazing moment. it's an amazing contrast. for my

part, i want to send mr. bongino some bigger shirts. it's a real podcast look heading into you see again, just visually you see mr. dennehy leave. he could be, you know, the president, united states and mr. bongino needs bigger shirts. glenn thrush, frank figliuzzi, thank you for starting us off. my apologies again for the gremlins. kristy sticks around when we come back. the president making a series of sweeping attacks against another one of his perceived political enemies. the goal of this latest directive is clearly to intimidate and silence the entire legal profession. people working in law firms to even attempt to represent people who have ever in their lives challenged donald trump. plus, more signs. the elon musk shtick with the chainsaw thing is wearing thin, even within donald trump's own cabinet and later in the broadcast, in case trump's embrace of vladimir putin hadn't been made clear in the oval office last friday. today, on

the one week anniversary of that disgrace, new comments clearly align the united states of america with moscow's military aims, as the world works to secure a peace deal for the war in ukraine. all those stories and more when deadline. white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. >> safelite repair. safelite replace. >> nobody likes a. >> cracked windshield. >> but at least you can go to safelite. com and schedule a fix in minutes. >> can confirm. >> very easy. >> safelite can come to you for free, and our highly trained techs can replace your windshield right at your home. >> safelite repair. safelite replace. >> go to safelite.com and schedule a replacement today. kids. >> i'm sure you're wondering why your mother and i asked you. >> here tonight. >> it's because it's a buffet of all you can eat. butterfly shrimp and sirloin steak. >> yeah. >> that is the reason. >> that is the reason. >> i t ♪♪

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circumstances. the executive order also bars this firm, perkins coie employees, from entering any federal building and suspends all of their security clearances. it is a direct hit against one of trump's perceived political enemies in the private sector. the washington law firm has, among many clients, represented hillary clinton and the dnc during the 2016 presidential race. perkins coie also handled the 65 lawsuits that the trump campaign filed in their efforts to overturn his defeat in 2020, when he ran against joe biden. that firm won all but one of those cases in excess of 60 cases against team trump, thanks in large part to a friend of this program, mark elias, who once worked at the firm. see, the dots are all connected. a spokesperson for perkins coie calls the executive order, quote, patently unlawful. they intend to challenge it. the washington post describes

trump's retaliation like this. quote the move could have a chilling effect on law firms willingness to take on clients and cases that run counter to the trump administration, challenging a fundamental tenet of the rule of law in the united states that everyone should have access to legal representation. joining our coverage, former rnc chairman, now msnbc host and political analyst michael steele. christie still with us. michael steele, have you seen the law firms that are currently in good standing step into the fray and publicly defend this law firm today? >> no. and you won't because they're part of the grift machine. why would they why would they turn off that spigot? i think every law firm in this town and around the country should stand together and say, go ahead, try it, try it. i mean, are you serious? i mean, the american people. you're looking. >> at this.

>> and you think this is normal and okay to single out a law firm that happened to represent a political opponent of donald trump and the lawyers who were involved in cases and litigations against him. how dumb is that? and think about it in terms. of if any other business in this country operated that way where they would, they would tell you, i'm sorry, we're not going to serve you your the goods you ordered because you ordered from a competitor or you, you, you know, you also contribute money to an organization we don't like. i mean, this is just not normal. this is the this is the musings and actions of a petty, afraid little man who is sitting behind a very big desk and wielding a lot of power. but at the end of the day, he's a scared little boy who feels that this is the only way he can get payback is to go after the law firms who just did what they're supposed to do, what they were hired to do. and so i'm hoping the legal community as a member,

as an active member of the legal community, i'm hoping that we all stand together and go ahead. go ahead. make our day. you know, you want to. you want to tie this up in in in litigation. let's get this in front of the supreme court. and let's hear what those lawyers have to say, because this is crazy. >> well, and i mean, michael steele, i guess the point is, i mean, the enemies list that have been public, right? the one that kash patel publicized, the people who have been attacked, they include bill barr is a law firm that represent bill barr, not defending perkins coie because they think that he'll never write an executive order against the law firm defending bill barr. you couldn't get between bill barr and a camera when he wanted to tell any network how guilty donald trump was in the mar-a-lago case. mark esper is on the enemies list. is the law firm representing mark esper. can you defend perkins coie today? because he could be next. john bolton has been embroiled in litigation against bill barr's justice department for the better part of six

years. i don't know who his lawyers are, but i didn't. i looked, i looked before i came on the air. i looked in the break for a statement from his lawyers. i didn't see one. liz cheney's law firm. i mean, i'm sure trump is targeting her. don mcgahn's lawyer was bill burck, who i think works for the trump org now. i mean, the idea that anyone is safe is what mike pompeo was recently tossed off the island in the game of survivor. that is trumpism. i don't know who his lawyers are, but the point is, you said they're keeping quiet because they think they're safe. no one is ever safe. >> for long. they're not. >> no, they're not. and that's that's the point. and the string of law firms that are associated with the individuals that you just identified should be the first ones out of the gate. what is the point of the oath that we swore as lawyers? right. we're here to defend those who otherwise would be persecuted by the very people like donald trump. that's what we're called

to do. and so whether you're in a corporate setting or a litigation setting, no matter what you do in the law, we're all part of the same fraternity and sorority of lawyers who are who have sworn an oath to uphold the constitution and the rule of law and to protect those who have a matter to bring before the courts of this country. and we don't decide whether or not we, you know, that's a good thing or a bad thing for us financially. right? and so i'm hoping they stand up. i'm hoping this is just a momentary pause as they're sitting there writing the narrative that they're going to put out there publicly, because otherwise their silent silence is indicting them. and it is a dark day for the legal community. if we allow this one man, i don't care if he is the president of the united states, because everything i was taught as a as a young lawyer was, no one is above the law. everything i was taught as a sworn officer of the court was nobody is above the law. what i was told when i

swore my oath of office as an elected official, that no one is above the law. if we believe that's true, then prove it. >> christie, is it legal to single out a private company with retribution? >> so i don't think this executive order is going to hold up. there are so many aspects of it that that seem blatantly illegal. i don't this idea that he could strip access to government buildings from these lawyers. so you can't walk into a courthouse or into an agency. that means you effectively can't do your job for your clients. if you can't go to meetings or go to court proceedings, or any of the number of things that happen in government buildings that cannot possibly be legal. things like stripping of them, of their security clearances that he has a lot of discretion over. but again, if the reason that you are doing it is so that they can't, they cannot defend anybody who is in opposition to you. that, again, is to interfere with, with with your

client's potential rights to effective counsel, also to due process rights. there is a due there is a procedure that that they are supposed to go through each of these agencies to deny security clearance. doesn't seem like he did that. he just did it with the stroke of a pen, limiting interactions with employees of the firm. i don't even know how that's possible. how do you say if you're on the other side, if you are the government, you're on the other side of a case with perkins coie law firm. how do you limit the interaction with them? you have to deal with them to deal with your case. like it's just it's practically moronic and stupid. but i think it's i think it will be struck down. but i think the larger point is this chilling effect, right. because you are going to have people who say, well, if they are not, if the government is not hiring people from this firm, i'm not going to go to that firm. i don't want to work at that firm. so you're going to affect potential

applicants to the firm. you're going to affect potential clients to the firm who say, i'm not sure i want to bring my business to this firm if they're going to be all, you know, you know, dealing with this kind of opposition from d.o.j, i'll just pick another law firm that isn't so. i think that is the intended impact to make it hurt for the firm. >> i guess the point is, in the year nine, though, michael, the firms that are staying quiet today, i promise them, i promise them if it's not one of the people on this list who are on on the public enemies list, it will be somebody else who is attached to one of your cases at one of your firms. they will come for everybody that stays quiet. the only thing they respond to is toughness. >> they do. and that's why i, you know, i would be less reticent and to remain quiet in this moment. and i think there is strength and it's something that, you know, folks in trump world count on. you know, we

just throw all of this up at the wall and everyone sees the pattern of it, and they get afraid and they back away and they don't want to get splattered. we need to get splattered. we need to engage in this. you just can't sit by and just go, well, you know, i don't want to be the firm that i, you know, i lose my clients or i don't. what does that say about you? why would i want to come to you if you don't have the you know what to actually defend yourself? >> well, that's true too. >> of all of. >> this, how tough of a lawyer are you? i have to sneak in a break. you both stick around. up next, there's brand new reporting in the new york times about some very public cracks in the facade of the happy little chainsaw inclusive family that is the trump cabinet. elon musk's slash and burn tactics are coming up against some friction from within the cabinet itself. we're bringing that itself. we're bringing that reporting next. okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals,

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inspire is a sleep apnea treatment that works inside my body with just the click of this button. a button? no mask? no hose? just sleep. yeah but you need the hose, you need the air, you need the whoooooosh... inspire. sleep apnea innovation. learn more, and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com york times today on a confrontation of sorts inside the white house between elon musk and several members of donald trump's new cabinet. with donald trump sort of reduced to the role of spectator. the times cites five people with knowledge of the confrontation, reports this about an argument between elon musk and marco rubio. quote, you fired nobody, musk told. rubio then scornfully added that perhaps the only person he had fired was a staff member from his department of government efficiency. rubio had

been privately furious with musk for weeks, ever since his doge team effectively shuttered an entire agency that was supposedly under rubio's control. the united states agency for international development. musk was not being truthful, rubio said. what about the more than 1500 state department officials who took early retirement in buyouts? didn't they count as layoffs? he asked sarcastically whether musk wanted him to rehire all those people just so he could make a show of firing them again. then he laid out his detailed plans for reorganizing the state department. musk was unimpressed. he told rubio he was, quote, good on tv, with the clear subtext being he wasn't good for much else. where was donald trump in all this? the times reports that he sat back as if he was watching a tennis match. ultimately, he, quote, intervened to defend. wait for it, rubio said. he was doing a great job. rubio has a lot to deal with, the president said. he's very busy. he's always traveling and on tv, and he has an agency to run. so everyone

just needs to work together, end quote. and then for the first time since his inauguration, trump put some restraints on elon musk from this reporting quote. from now on, he said the secretaries would be in charge. the musk team will only advise. joining our coverage host of msnbc's politics nation, president of the national action network, the reverend al sharpton joins us. christi and michael are still here. rev, i have been watching the bannon musk power struggle with keen interest since it first emerged during the campaign. and i think i said on television, do not ever bet against the guy who is willing to go to jail to not testify before congress, and the guy who sort of in, i don't know if his life i don't know enough about his life, but who seems to understand the base and the most powerful elements of the trump base better than anybody in trumpland. and that is steve bannon. and i don't have any idea if bannon has any role in all this, but it does seem like

musk has stumbled not by taking more attention from trump, which is how most people stumble, but by dirtying him up politically. the things that musk is doing are not popular among republican voters in republican districts. >> that that is the whole point. i think that musk could get away with a lot, but he cannot in any. >> way endanger. >> his his popularity when he starts seeing polls coming down based on things that musk got him to do or that musk did in his name, that gets his attention. you got to remember, a narcissist is about him. and when you are doing things that in any way. injures or besmirches the image of the narcissist, he's got to react. all the logic in the world doesn't matter. everything else doesn't matter. but wait a minute, he's making me look bad. i don't care how rich he is. and i think that that's what musk is going to run into here.

>> what's interesting, though, is that this is a different trump, because the co-presidency has been going on since the beginning, and that doesn't bother trump. what bothers him and what has always, i think, sustained him politically is this reptilian survival sense that if all the republicans are voted out of office in two years, that is a much bumpier road. >> it's a much bumpier road. he knows that it will kill anything that he wants to leave as a legacy, and he has no way of stopping that if the polls keep dropping. i think that we really have to understand. donald trump, at the end of the day, is about donald trump, and he's not going to share that with anyone. spotlight doesn't care. he knows he's the president, and musk is not the president and never will be. but what he doesn't want to be is an unpopular president with no legacy. he wants the trump library. i mean, what does he do after he leaves? he can't change the law and run a third time. that's just talk. he wants the library. he wants to be

respected. he wants people to want him to come around the world. and if musk. >> bill trump mars. that's right. all these rocket men. >> in his pocket. >> that's right. i mean, there's a man talking about buying whole countries. i want to own greenland. so that's how he thinks. if musk gets in the way of that self-image that he has, as unrealistic as it may be, that is where you're going to start seeing division. >> i want to put all this to you. whether betting on musk is sort of a domino that he's already kicked over, but i have already kicked over, but i have to sneak in a quick break life with afib can mean a lifetime of blood thinners. and if you're troubled by falls and bleeds, worry follows you everywhere. ♪♪ over half a million people have left blood thinners behind. with watchman. ♪♪ watchman is a safe, minimally invasive, one-time implant that reduces stroke risk and bleeding worry. for life. ♪♪ watchman. it's one time, for a lifetime.

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leaders in washington need. >> to protect our competitive edge. >> michael steele angelo carusone has this great phrase about narrative dominance and the narrative dominance of a war on veterans that's being described by veterans who may or may have not voted for donald trump is inescapable when married up with all of his first term disparagement of veterans. i don't know how you put that toothpaste back in the tube with or without elon musk by your side. >> you know, i think it really kind of goes to something that we talked about in the last segment with the lawyers. you know, all those folks who think that he doesn't mean me. he's never going to come after me. i'm with him. i'm on team trump, i'm maga. you know, to the rev's point. okay. that's that's just like a, you know, a nice little banner. but if it turns against him in any way, he doesn't feel that he is still the center of all of that. he changes and he

goes after those things. so those in the veteran community, donald trump has already shared with us what he thinks of veterans. and it still surprises me how people can get past that and just sort of hold on to this maga dream that somehow he cares about them. he doesn't. and so the fact that the va is under attack just as much as the department of education, just as much as teachers and others that trump typically rails against, should not be any surprise to anyone. and that's what ultimately will come home for. for all of them and for all of this is the realization that when he says that he's coming after a group, it's everybody. it's not just those that he you think he's talking about, it's you too. and how do we know that? look at what's happening across the board in health agencies and educational institutions, in security, in the security space, in our in

our va hospitals around the country. none of them are safe from donald trump's ego. none of them. rev. it's only, what, like five week six? feels like year six. what is what is your sense of the laws of political gravity right now? in this moment. >> i think that we're seeing a shift because of the doge stuff in terms of firing people where people are beginning to, in the trump world, start moving away from just being true believers, have drunk the kool-aid no matter what he does, because he's hurting real people. and we can blame it on musk. we can blame it on who we want. it's trump who they believed in. it's trump who they voted for, and they're being fired. when you see you laying off all these federal workers, i was reading somewhere 30% veterans. and these are people that stood up for the country and they're dismissed. that's not attacking

nicole wallace or al sharpton. that's them. >> he has time for that too. >> but he does that. yes, but but but that that when, when he was fighting for them and would attack some of us, they would rah rah rah because it's us against them. but when they're getting fired, they don't want to hear that, because now i can't take care of my notes at home, my mortgage, my car. right. and i think that is what is slowly bringing a lot of that down. and i think trump is sensing that, which is why he's probably trying to figure out how he distances himself and makes this work another way. >> yeah. angelo carusone, who i mentioned has me listening to more radio than i've listened to in years. and you can't, you can't you can't snuff it all out. right? people are having anxiety about social security. they're feeling anxiety about cancer research cuts. they're feeling anxiety about veterans health care. they're feeling anxiety about all sorts of things that affect their real lives. and there's not a lot you can do to spin or disinfo your

way out of out of any of that. michael steele, christie greenberg, the reverend al sharpton, thank you so much for spending time with us today. roadshow politics nation this weekend will be live from selma on the 60th anniversary of bloody sunday. that starts right bloody sunday. that starts right here at 5 p.m. eastern. we're known for pursuing your passions. no one wants to be known for cancer, but a treatment can be. keytruda is known to treat cancer. fda-approved for 18 types of cancer, including certain early-stage and advanced cancers. one of those cancers is early-stage non-small cell lung cancer. keytruda may be used with certain chemotherapies before surgery when you have early-stage lung cancer, which can be removed by surgery, and then continued alone after surgery to help prevent your lung cancer from coming back. keytruda can cause your immune system to attack healthy parts of your body during or after treatment. this may be severe and lead to death. see your doctor right away if you have cough, shortness of breath, chest pain, diarrhea, severe stomach pain, nausea, or vomiting, headache, light sensitivity,

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has deleted more than 26,000 images and online posts across every military branch, erasing entire chapters of history. and it looks like they again have used ellen's chainsaw instead of anyone's scalpel. removing references to a world war two medal of honor recipient, the enola gay aircraft. that's the plane that dropped an atomic bomb on japan, and the first woman to pass marine infantry training. and if you're wondering, what does the enola gay have to do with dei? it's not you. it doesn't have anything. the ap adds this quote in some cases, photos seem to have been flagged for removal simply because they included the word gay, including service members with that last name and an image of the enola gay. yes, we are all getting dumber. up next, after inheriting a red hot and booming economy, there are now very real signs of strain showing in our economy, all thanks to the chaos unleashed

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>> get super. >> beta prostate. >> if i win, you are three days away from the best jobs, the biggest paychecks, the brightest economic future that the world has ever seen. my plan will rapidly defeat inflation, quickly bring down prices and reignite explosive economic growth. so i'll deliver the biggest economic boom in american history. it's going to be the biggest. >> i actually miss that guy. hi again everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. those were big promises on the campaign trail at rallies to his supporters from donald trump about the economy. they are arguably the biggest reason why he won. and now, weeks into his second presidency, the economy is not booming. and he's not talking like that at all to anyone.

today's new jobs report showed 151,000 jobs were added last month, more than the previous month, but well below expectations, and the unemployment rate increased to 4.1%. that's actually the good news. trump touted the numbers in an oval office address this afternoon, but experts and economists are warning not so fast. mark hamrick, bankrate senior economic analyst, raised the question a picture of calm amid the chaos. and samuel tombs, chief u.s. economist at pantheon macroeconomics, all but dismissed the report as, quote, a snapshot of a prior age before the shift in federal government policies undermine confidence because based on the window of time when the data for today's report was taken, the real impact of trump's slashing of the federal workforce and on again, off again massive tariffs won't be seen until the next report. meanwhile, consumer confidence is seeing its biggest drop in years in its assessment of the current economic outlook. the new york times reports this, quote, the sudden deterioration

in the outlook is striking, especially because it is almost entirely a result of trump's policies and the resulting uncertainty. tariffs and the inevitable retaliation from trading partners will increase prices and slow down growth. federal job cuts will push up unemployment and could lead government employees and contractors to pull back on spending while they wait to learn their fate. deportations could drive up costs for industries like construction and hospitality that depend on immigrant labor. michael strain, an economist at the conservative american enterprise institute, told the times that what trump is doing, quote, will slow economic growth. it will take money out of people's pockets. it will increase the unemployment rate. it will cost people jobs. it will make american businesses less competitive. uncertainty and concern and worry over where the economy is and is heading is where we begin the hour with

some of our favorite experts and friends. mitch landrieu joins us. he is the former co-chair of the harris wallace campaign. with me at the table is former head of the auto task force for president obama, current chairman of willett advisors. steve rattner is here. i told you i had chart envy because i watch you on morning joe with your charts. but just just first of all, tell me what's happening. >> what's happening is a little bit of what you said in. >> the intro. >> and actually, michael. strain is. >> a very. >> serious and honest guy. and what he what is going. >> on. >> is you. >> have a series of incoherent. policies that are conflicting, that don't represent any kind of real vision of. >> where he's trying. >> to take it. he talks. >> about balancing. >> the budget and cutting the debt, but. >> he's proposing. >> literally $8. >> trillion. >> of tax cuts. >> if. >> you. >> add up everything he said. >> on the campaign trail. >> he's talking about cutting spending, but he's not going to. then he keeps saying, i'm not going to touch medicaid. so i don't know how you do that. and of course, what's going on in washington with the federal workforce, as you said, is

adding but the overarching. >> point at the moment. >> because none of these policies have actually even taken effect, is the other point you made, which is the uncertainty. consumers are now nervous and scared. you see the stock market lurching around. people pay attention to that. they they watch him saying one thing one day. tariffs are on. tariffs are off. who knows what to think about all that. and so they're cutting spending. and consumer spending is actually going down for the first time in years. and so these are so farlt either give him credit or blame. him for any of these economic numbers yet. but you can see self-inflicted wounds and you can see up there one of my favorite charts. not favorite in the sense that shows very clearly what's going on with consumer spending. and it went down this month for the first. >> time. >> as you can see, with one small exception in a very long time. >> mitch, one of the things that people have said about donald trump for nine years is, yeah, grab women in the bleep. yeah, russia said they didn't do it.

yeah i don't like the way he acts. but the economy under trump will be white hot. it is disorienting to people that donald trump doesn't even say that anymore. what do you think his shift in caring about the markets and caring about the price of eggs and caring about people's personal economies can be attributed to. >> well, first. >> of all, i think the best thing to call him now. >> is king chaos. i think both. >> of those terms. >> apply to. >> at. least one of the ways. >> how he sees. >> himself and. >> the other the way he acts. you know. >> uncertainty is. >> the enemy of economic growth. now, stephen knows this better than anybody, and he has the best charts that are based on facts that can. >> show you. >> in real time what's happening. >> but the last. >> 6 to 8 weeks have been really erratic. it's been very unstable. donald trump sits at that desk and waves that pen like just by signing something he can ordain a reality. >> he can. >> say, well, panama is ours, greenland is ours, you know? but

essentially. >> he's got a. >> plan for everything. >> except for. >> what the people elected him for, which is to bring down costs. costs are up, eggs are up, gas is up. >> remember, he. >> said very clearly that he was going to bring down gas by half in the first 12 months of his administration. and now that the republicans hold the house, the senate, the supreme court and the presidency, they all are talking about cutting social security, medicare, medicaid. and you actually see in real time. elon musk, who's an. >> unaccountable, unaccountable. >> billionaire who has no sensitivity. actually cutting deep to the bone on. veterans affairs call centers that veterans call in to for suicide prevention. noah, which is nobody knows the organization that actually can see when hurricanes are coming, when firefighters are coming. he's blinding them now. and for somebody from new orleans who got decimated by katrina, that is a life or death situation. so i think that the uncertainty out there is really going to be a problem going forward. and the president clearly has no plan to bring down costs, or he would have done it already, because of

course, he thinks that pen is all powerful. but if he's so powerful, you know, i'd like to see the price of eggs go down tomorrow. if he doesn't mind. >> i heard at this table this week from basel schmeichel that eggs are being sold as individual eggs. right. the bodegas and he said in his neighborhood are selling individual eggs. you've got the data but you've got this lived experience where people that shop at target may have heard the head of target say that things will be more expensive immediately, and the calls are coming from inside the right wing media ecosystem as well. a couple anchors on fox news have been warning against the tariffs. what is the what is sort of the recognition, i guess, among the business community that they don't have all the sway. they might have bet the first time they would have with donald trump. >> well. >> first of. >> all, i think let's put eggs to the side. that's a kind of a special thing. but the tariffs and the effect on import prices is going to be very clear. and there have been studies done by nonpartisan economists that

goods that are particularly susceptible to being imported, like electronics, which are all made somewhere else, could go up by 10% or more if all these tariffs actually stay in effect. so you're talking about very, very significant things. the business community does not like tariffs. let's just be clear. unless they happen to benefit that particular company. but in general they don't like tariffs. but the business community so far has been willing to cut trump a lot of sway because they like the talk about deregulation. frankly, they didn't love all the regulatory stuff that happened during the biden administration. and they think that it's time to kind of roll some of that back. and so that's why they're still more or less on his side. but with every passing day, i think even the business community finds the uncertainty and the vacillation and the oscillation and the tariffs unnerving and scary and really hard to operate with. >> mitch trump's upside down and his polling on the economy usually a strong suit, more americans disapprove than approve of his handling of the cost of living, the cost of

things. his generic number on the economy. more people think he has changed the economy for the worse than the best. and then here's the rhetoric that goes with that. these are some of his officials on the economy lately. >> access to cheap goods is not the asset, is not the. >> essence of the american dream. >> we have. >> taxpayer dollars. we have a fiscal responsibility to use taxpayer. >> dollars to pay people. >> that actually work. >> that doesn't mean that we forget our veterans. >> by any means. >> we are going. >> to. >> care for them in the right way, but perhaps they're not. >> fit to have. >> a job. >> at this. >> moment or not willing to come to work. >> i think the silver lining. >> in all of this is how do we in our backyards. >> we've. >> got chickens in our backyard. >> how do we solve. >> for something. >> like this? and people. >> are sort of looking around thinking, wow. >> well, maybe i could get a chicken in my backyard. and it's awesome. >> get a chicken and put it in your backyard. is the trump

economic plan for 2025. >> the insensitivity of those comments coming from scott bessett, who's a billionaire, or donald trump, who's a billionaire, elon musk, who's a billionaire is amazing. yep. hope and opportunity are part of the american dream. but to say that people don't care about lower cost or the impact that steve said the tariffs are going to have on their day to day living farmers, you know, that that are living in the heartland is just doesn't make any sense. and finally, on the health care issue, i can assure you veterans very much care when you close down or you hurt veterans hospitals and you lose your doctors and nurses to the private sector and they can't get care, are they cutting off the call centers for veterans that need mental health treatment or noaa are cutting firefighters? all of those things really, really matter. and the public elected donald trump to deal with the economy. and he's quite frankly, just not doing it. and to the extent that he is doing it, the instability and how erratic it is looks to me like a guy that, you know, i don't know, maybe went bankrupt six times. and i think business leaders see that. and at some point in time, you know, things are going to start to move.

>> and mitch, let me ask you a political question. his indifference to the stock market is politically disorienting. it was one of the mirrors he held up, and it was one of the reasons that it appeared from the outside that covid truly drove him mad. what do you what do you make of his seeming indifference to the volatility he has created in the stock market? >> well, what's weird about it is i don't think he's indifferent to that at all. but his response to it is weird. the market has been freaking out this week. it doesn't know whether to go up or go down, and it's following how erratic he is being. and i think steve can can confirm this or object to it. but, you know, people need stability and they want stability. being erratic is the enemy of stability. and they're looking for whether they agree with him or not, some consistent level of thought that doesn't change hour by hour. and i think it's disorienting when they see him kicking our allies in the pants and kissing the butts of our enemies. that's kind of

freaky, too. and i think people are going, well, he's just he's the president again, and he's better at being bad, but like, where is this going with us? and i just don't think it's got legs that are going to last a long time, to be honest with you. i think people are really upset about it. i get stopped on the street all the time by people that are self-professed conservatives that say, i voted for the guy, but this is just not what i voted for. and again, we just got to stay focused on cost. that's kind of where the american people are. they want fairness, they want cost, they want opportunity. they want to be able to feed their family, and they don't feel like they're getting that right now. >> we covered in the last hour a story about a law firm that's been targeted for retribution by donald trump, private company. and trump has an executive order out with retribution and punishment. they can't enter federal buildings. retribution in. i don't say this very often in trump's defense was what he campaigned on. he's made clear that he will eek out retribution against private companies that make him mad. why wasn't why don't businesses view themselves as civic actors who had a stake

in trying to protect the country from moving in this direction? that again, trump promised retribution. he promised retribution against political enemies, against companies. trump also campaigned publicly with elon musk, who is literally buying and paying voters in pennsylvania. why didn't those did they not believe that's how he would govern? did they not care? did they not? did they agree with it? what was their view on the flagrant promise of retribution and the obvious alignment with the world's richest man? >> i think a little bit. nicole, you kind of answered your own question in the sense that they're scared. they they understand that. >> the billionaire titans of the universe are scared. >> absolutely. >> they're scared. who do they think is going to save the country? >> i don't know, but they are scared. i can. >> tell you what. >> they are scared of retribution. >> from trump. they have yachts. they have islands. what are they scared of? >> some individual billionaires certainly can speak up. and they have. but if you're a corporate ceo or you're responsible for a company or a lot of people or

some or a lot of investors money or something like that, they just don't want to get in the mosh pit with trump. well, look, why did all these people pay $1 million to go sit at the inauguration, some of whom are, i know, committed democrats? >> because why did they. >> they wanted to suck up to him, assuming i can say that on television, they wanted they. >> wanted on this show. >> they they wanted to they they know this guy rewards his friends and punishes his enemies, and that's the way he's always operated. but now in this administration, you are seeing it to a level that i would have never imagined punishing a law firm because they represented somebody you don't like, taking away security clearance from another lawyer at a different firm because they represented somebody you don't like. it's unbelievable. >> but do none of those companies have general counsels who worry that they've paid a bribe? >> and what. >> i'm sorry. what? so if the million dollars was paid out of fear of retribution, how is that different from a bribe paid to a foreign government that operates that way?

>> i mean, you could make that argument, but i think you could also say i'm a patriot and it's america. it's an inauguration, and i'm going to give $1 million. some of them gave it personally. some of them did give it from their companies. some would say it's a cost of doing business. you could call it a bribe, but it's legal. but but that's the that is that is the situation out there. i've talked to a lot of ceos, a lot of business people. the last thing they want to do is put their head up above the parapet, and that's that's where we are. >> i am old enough to remember when major league baseball took one of the bravest stands against the voter suppression law in georgia, ushered in after the lie that fraud had led to donald trump's defeat, and major league baseball moved the all star game from the state of georgia to colorado. i'm not sure that that before or after anyone else has done much of anything about what is now the ushering in of people paying stevenson, democrats paying million dollars because they're scared. this is not our why is

everyone paralyzed by fear? and i hate to add to this sentiment, but where are the democrats? >> you can't listen. let me just say this after every major catastrophic event that i've experienced in my life and katrina to read it, i to gustav, to the national recession, to the bp oil spill, when all the big people go run and hide. really, the people who save us are just the regular folks on the street. somebody who says, i don't know why i'm doing this, i'm just a legal secretary. i don't know why i'm doing this. i'm just a parish priest. i don't know why i'm saving anybody. i was just a baseball coach. and that's going to happen again in america. it's going to come from the ground up, and that's where it has to come from, because they are the ones who see really clearly. and i'm very disappointed in the business leadership of america. do you really want to live in the kind of country where business leaders who are billionaires are afraid to speak because they're afraid of a political leader? i mean, what the hell is going on in this country? and i think that maybe people did not think, contrary

to being warned many times, that donald trump was going to destroy democracy, that he was going to seek retribution, that he was going to take people's fundamental rights away. but as i said, donald trump is much better today at being bad than he was four years ago. and at some point, if we want to save our country and this democracy which is at threat right now, the ability to suck up to putin and the willingness to really punish mexico and canada, two of our closest allies, is the surest signal in the world that our country has lost its way. and everybody's got to step up to the plate and maybe take some time. maybe it takes a little time to work through that fear. yesterday, the u.s. attorney, the acting u.s. attorney from the district of columbia, and the district of senate sent a letter to a preeminent catholic institution, georgetown, and told them that he was going to try to shut them down or hurt them for teaching the social justice, which, of course, is what the bible is all about. and they got a very stern, thoughtful letter back from a

courageous, you know, group of folks in georgetown saying, you know, the first amendment applies to everybody, and we're going to stand up to it. and that's the moment that we're in. we haven't been here in a long time in america, and it's time for people to step up. and i think that they will. but it's going to take some time. >> i, i want to associate myself with your comments about people, ordinary people having more courage than a lot of people in positions of power. and if you go back and study, we were talking about the late 60s and the 70s. counterculture is always led from the people, not from a politician. that said, mitch, you're going to throw your hat in the ring and say, take me. >> you listen, i've been on the battlefield for a long time, and i'm not leaving until they put me in the grave. whatever it takes, however it takes, however long it takes. i think there was a there was a little piece that we're having, you know, the crossing of the edmund pettus bridge that we do when we remember john lewis, who was standing on that bridge when he was 23 years old, who knew he was going to get hit by that sheriff in the face with his little backpack on and his

trench coat? and he stood there and he took it because it was really important in that moment. and we are harkening back to a time that was very, very dangerous in this country, and people have to stand up to it. donald trump is a traitor to this country. donald trump is really sucking up to dictators across the world. he is taking us down a path that is not good for the country. and even if there are some people who are going to do better, the bigger picture of all of this, the stability of who we are as a people, is really being challenged, and we're going to have to find ourselves again. it may take a long time. a lot of people might get hurt. it doesn't feel real good. people are uncertain and a little bit disoriented about the direction that we're going in. because we have we have we are right to expect more from our president of the united states. but so far, donald trump has delivered exactly what he said he was going to deliver chaos, calumny, lack of concern for regular folks. and he's taken this country in the wrong direction. and i'm hoping americans will, you know, step up over time. >> i really appreciate both of you and your candor today. i needed that. mitch landrieu,

steve rattner, thank you both. when we come back, bombshell new reporting in the new york times that has the leaders of canada completely convinced that donald trump is dead serious when he talks about trying to make canada the 51st state. what trump has brought up on calls with the canadian prime minister that makes them believe, at least, that he is not kidding. that new reporting is next. also ahead, one week after dressing down president volodymyr zelensky and throwing him out of the white house, trump is now fully embracing russia's prerogative to bomb the bleep out of ukraine. it's the tragic reality of a brutal war with america now on the wrong side of it. we'll get to that reporting as well later in the hour. deadline. white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. >> safelite repair. safelite replace. >> nobody likes a. >> cracked windshield. >> but at least you can go to safelite. com and schedule a fix in minutes.

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>> at 8:00. >> on msnbc. >> what we do is try to cut right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington. >> that day. >> donald trump's spiteful and petty trade war with canada is being treated as something very different by the nation. that used to be our best friend, our friendliest neighbor to the north. new reporting in the new york times details how deadly seriously canada is taking trump's threats about making canada america's 51st state, not only in his truth social posts or his press gatherings, but in direct conversations with canadians, with canadian government leaders about those calls. the new york times reports this, quote, president trump laid out a long list of grievances he had with the trade relationship between the two countries, including canada's protected dairy sector. the difficulty american banks face in doing business in canada, and canadian consumption taxes that trump deems unfair because they make american goods more expensive. he also brought up something much more fundamental.

he told mr. trudeau that he did not believe that the treaty that demarcates the border between the two countries was valid, and that he wants to revise the boundary. he offered no further explanation and didn't end by saying just kidding. so is trump appears to once again roll back his threat of tariffs on canadian goods because of the economic calamity. it would certainly cause. it does cause all of us to wonder are his attacks on canada even about tariffs or something more like canada's status as a sovereign nation? joining me at the table, new york times investigative reporter, author of lucky loser best title ever. susanne craig is here. not only is she canadian, but she was named to the order of canada for her contributions to journalism. and here at the table for the rest of the hour, deputy national security advisor to president obama, msnbc contributor ben rhodes. sue craig, what is going

on? >> well. >> i think. >> it's not a trade war because i don't think trade is the. >> end game. >> i mean, he's using tariffs to extract something. >> and i think we're going to see, you know, i think a lot of people. >> in canada and. >> i really feel it do think. >> there's some sort of potential annexation. >> game here. or a mineral. >> agreement where he can extract some sort of. mineral agreement out of canada. but i don't think. that this is just about tariffs and about trade. it's about getting something else. and he's got a hammer. that's the tariffs. >> and he's going to use it. and i think. >> this is going to. >> play out in. >> a really unsettling and. >> awful way. >> and it was a canadian i. >> just it's. >> just awful to watch it. and i have to say you know the news here moves from one thing to another. but to understand this, to truly just feel it, you have to talk to canadians and be there. it is all they are talking about. >> and it's. >> just. >> been an. >> incredible rallying cry for everybody. everybody i talked to, they're phoning. they're like, what. >> can i do? >> and they're they're talking about. >> what they.

>> can do. they're buying, not just buying canadian. there's everything. >> from small things. >> americanos and coffee shops are now, you. >> know, named after. >> canada instead. >> and i. >> talked to a friend of mine who's. >> a he's got. >> a choir out in british columbia, and they've moved. >> any song. >> that refers to. >> america. >> like walking. >> in memphis. it's incredible to see this country just rally. >> around their sovereignty and. >> around. >> who they are. but the upshot, i mean, they're they're next to a really powerful. neighbor that no longer is potentially an ally. >> and it's just an ugly point to be in. >> after decades of support. >> that canada has lent the. >> united states. everything through wars. >> through nine over 11. >> through countless. >> agreements that they. have to see this happening is just really shattering. what do they think the reason is? i haven't. talked to one person who thinks this is a trade war. i mean. >> they think that he's. >> after either. >> an agreement on mineral

rights. >> and he's. going to. >> try and economically. devastate canada through. >> the tariffs and. >> then come in. and extract. >> some sort of agreement on mineral rights. >> or i think a lot of people think this 51st state thing is real, and i don't know what. >> that. >> looks like. if it's all of canada or he tries to get part of it, maybe he wants. >> to. >> go after, you know, a province like the in the west, like. alberta where i'm from, where it's very rich in minerals. it's a gateway to. >> alaska, potentially. >> i don't know what it looks like, but this isn't about fentanyl coming. across the border from canada to the united states. >> because the fact is, it goes the other way. that's right. what is it that they think of the american people right now? they're furious. >> i mean, you see, even it really, really hit a chord with me when i was watching. it all comes down. >> to hockey. >> but i. >> was i. >> was watching the four nation. final game. and not only were canadians booing the american anthem, but i think they were booing what was going on. i

think this is not about the american people, it's about donald trump. but to see not just that, but even the backlash over somebody like wayne gretzky, an incredible hockey player, largely considered by many people to be one of the greatest athletes to ever come from canada, he was the honorary captain of the canadian team, and he came out on the ice. and the us captain, the honorary captain came out with with his blazer on that matched his team. and canada won that game. and wayne gretzky came out and he was wearing a, you know, a dark blue suit. and there has been so much backlash over wayne gretzky in canada. people have been booing him. and the reason is, is, you know, he he is a friend of donald trump. he's been at mar-a-lago. he's been living in the united states for a while, but it's his association with trump. and then to come out on the ice and not wear either your your your jersey or your order of canada pin or something to show your loyalty to your country at that point in history has just created this incredible

backlash towards this person who's who's really like an icon in canada to many people to see how it's really it's just divided people in that way, but it's unified the country behind, you know, there's a lot of political issues in canada. and you guys have we have them, but it's really unified. everybody around this issue in a way i've never seen in my lifetime. >> i mean, the thing that you can't take in isolation is the assault on the sovereignty of our closest, one of our closest friends and geographically, our most close friend, our closest friend and ally and intelligence partner and national security ally. a stalwart, our best, i mean, everything. and the affinity for traditional enemies like russia, right? >> yeah. >> i mean. >> look. >> it goes without saying that one of the comparative advantages that the united states has had as a country throughout our history is we have this. >> long. >> incredibly peaceful border

with a country that is completely integrated with us in all these different ways. and i think, nicole, we have to train ourselves in this second trump term to entertain where this could go. and so what i think about is if. you study autocrats, they almost always reach a point where it's not enough to dominate your own country. it's not enough to humiliate your political enemies at home. territorial expansion always becomes a thing. and it just. let's take a recent example. >> of a good friend. >> of. >> trump's, vladimir putin, dominated that country, imprisoned his enemies, and at a certain point, after, you know, 15 years, i need a piece of ukraine, i need crimea. and i think that this is what the game that trump is playing. >> he's been remarkably. >> consistent since after the election. he didn't talk about this that much before the election. but greenland, canada, panama, he has talked about that constantly since november. and so i think we have to take that both seriously and literally, because it's not an unusual

thing for an aging autocrat who wants a legacy to see territorial expansion as a part of obtaining that legacy. and this may sound fanciful to people, but just the fact that we're having this conversation and i know from talking to canadians to including people in the government that they take this deadly seriously, they truly believe justin trudeau said this pubcly now repeatedly. that's something that, you know, may seem fanciful to people, but we're two months into this experiment. where might we be in two years? >> yeah. i mean, and i think you go back to the lessons of nine over 11. it was a failure of imagination. yeah. this this we don't even have to imagine. he's saying it out loud and this, this reporting that came out of his brutality in the call with justin trudeau is only rivaled by the brutality he exhibited to president zelensky. >> right. and what a great story. i just want to give a shout out to my colleague, the canadian bureau chief, who wrote it. it was an incredible story, and it goes through all of the things that trump is looking at. and he said that, you know, it's

easy to abandon all of these agreements that we have with you. and then he went further to talk about that. he doesn't even think that the demarcation of the border is valid. like, how can you not go to that? there's the there's some fentanyl coming across. there's kilos coming across. it's not that's not. yeah. yeah. this is not what we're arguing about. and i don't know where it all lands. but everybody in canada is taking this very seriously i get it i mean it's i feel it. so yeah i'm, i think i'm a most days i'm a journalist and a canadian. and these days i feel like i'm a canadian and a journalist. those are the two things that really are inside of me. and i just feel to my core. and this is just really hard to watch. >> we love and respect you as a journalist and we, i think, beg your forgiveness as a canadian, as an american, please tell them that we don't all suck. >> yeah. >> we don't. all my family. i've never seen you like this. i'm going to give you a hint. i mean, it's thanks. i can't

believe we're having this conversation either. i can't believe mind blowing. most mind blowing. i couldn't have. >> imagined this in a million years and seen something really true is that, you know, donald trump and his team had choices of what to say first when they came in. yeah. and this is what they chose. and it's not just canada. they're talking about other countries as well. but decisions are made. and these words are deliberate. words matter. and these were chosen deliberately. >> and you can't take them back. i mean, unfortunately, for once, i think this is to be continued. yeah. thank you. thank you for being here for this. ben sticks around. we come back. as we said last week, it was ukraine. donald trump publicly just abandoned ukraine but humiliated them with the cameras rolling. but today, on the one week anniversary of that debacle, his words of support for vladimir putin's military moves, what he said in the oval office today as russia unleashes a widespread greg takes prevagen for his brain russia unleashes a widespread assa and this is his story.

hi, i'm greg. i live in bloomington, illinois. i'm not an actor. i'm just a regular person. eight years ago, i just didn't feel like i was on my game. i started taking prevagen and i want people to know that prevagen has worked for me. give it a try. i want it to help you just like it has helped me. i've been taking prevagen for eight years now and it is still helping me tremendously. prevagen. for your brain. you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean, not spreadsheets. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job on indeed, candidates can find it easier. so you can hire easier. visit indeed.com/hire the way i approach work post fatherhood, has really trying to understand the generation that we're building devices for. here in the comcast family, we're building an integrated in-home wifi solution for millions of families like my own. in the average household, there are dozens of connected devices. connectivity is a big part of my boys' lives.

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ukraine. do you. >> still believe. >> him. >> when he tells you. >> that he wants peace? >> you know, i believe him, i believe him. i think we're doing very well with russia. but right now they're bombing the hell out of ukraine and ukraine. i'm. i'm finding it more difficult, frankly, to deal with ukraine. and they don't have the cards in terms of getting a final settlement. it may be easier dealing with russia, which is

surprising because they have all the cards. >> they're bombing the hell out of ukraine. but i find it more difficult to deal with ukraine. the victim of the aggressor. just let that sink in, because that happened today in the oval office in washington, d.c, out of the mouth of an american president. and it should be shocking and destabilizing and disorienting that that guy, our president, as he is, quote, bombing the hell out of ukraine, is still receiving compliments from our president. well, speaking so callously and dismissively and derisively about the democracy in the equation, our longtime ally ukraine today, marking the three year anniversary of that brutal invasion and yet another massive attack targeting its energy grid, has also happened today from russia. russia launched a 194 drones overnight, according

to the associated press, and 67 missiles, about half of which ukraine was able to take down at least ten people, including a child, were wounded. but trump's complete alignment again today, rhetorically with the aggressor in all of this, the perpetrator of the war, russia, vladimir putin, is just the end of a stunning week of very public moves by the trump administration to diminish ukraine's ability to defend itself from russia, including halting arms shipments to ukraine, as well as suspending intelligence sharing with kyiv and even ending usaid support for ukraine's energy grid, which ukraine has relied on to rebuild its heating and water and electricity supply for their nation. from repeated attacks from russia throughout the last three years of the war. joining our conversation is ambassador michael mcfaul, former ambassador to russia and msnbc international affairs analyst. ben is with us as well. ambassador mcfaul, how how is

how are they doing? how is president zelensky doing? how is our friend ukraine doing? >> well, they've had better weeks. >> most certainly. this is a very. difficult time. president zelenskyy is. navigating an extremely. >> different. >> difficult solution. >> because the president. >> of the united. >> states, a country. that used to. >> be the leader of the free world, has. >> basically joined. >> the other side. nicole, i have a book coming out in october. >> i hope you'll have me on when it comes out. >> it's called autocrats versus. >> democrats china. >> russia and the new. >> world order. and by. >> the time we get to october. >> i'm not sure what. >> side america. >> is on because. trump himself wants. >> to. >> be on the. other side. and therefore, for president. >> zelensky, the democratically elected president of the democratic country of. >> ukraine, he. >> faces this dilemma. >> that. trump is trying. >> to force him to surrender. >> i think we need to reki

about a peace settlement. peace agreement. >> and allegedly, trump is trying to. mediate between putin and zelenskyy. i no longer. >> see it. >> that way. he is trying to. >> force the ukrainians to surrender. and therefore, why should anybody. >> be surprised. >> when he says it's. >> easier to get along with putin? >> of course it. >> is, mr. president. >> because. >> you're giving him. everything he wants. >> i want to turn to you with a snapshot of the political moment with two pieces of reporting. one of them just came through. one is elisabeth bumiller, the former bureau washington bureau chief of the new york times has some incredible reporting. she writes that longtime republican hawks on capitol hill, stunned by trump's revisionist history that ukraine is to blame for its invasion by russia and his oval office blow up at president zelensky, have either muzzled themselves, tip toed up to criticism without naming mr. trump, or completely reversed their positions. and we could go on for more time than we have left in the show, showing you all those years and years and years and years and years of

critiques of putin and compliments for zelensky that they they just shoved somewhere where ther. george w bush has been allergic to politics, but his center released this today quote, to the dismay of those who support freedom, the world is turning toward the appeasement of dictators. it was painful to watch last week's meeting in the oval office, a room president george w bush often called a shrine to freedom. donald trump and jd vance attacked vladimir zelensky, the democratically elected ukrainian president who is leading the fight against a dictatorial aggressor, to insinuate that ukraine is somehow the perpetrator of the aggression. the saber rattling to world war three and the impediment to peace is delusional. nobody wants the war to end more than the ukrainians, who, after all, are the ones suffering and dying from vladimir putin's war crimes, crimes against humanity and

genocide. the bombardment by russia is constant. peace will only come the day russia ceases fighting. in the meantime, ukrainians are justified in defending their sovereign territory. it's so remarkable and newsworthy because it is singular. there is no elected republican on capitol hill who will say that this afternoon we checked. >> yeah. >> well. >> the reason that this has changed so dramatically is that if you in the first trump term, this was actually not the case, that you'll recall, nicole, that the congress passed over trump's objection, a sanctions package on russia with bipartisan support. you also had people like rex tillerson and jim mattis who wanted to reinforce things like article five of nato, the complete capitulation of the republican party to donald trump, and the stacking of the government with loyalists is what allows him to be himself. and what he is when he's himself is a friend of vladimir putin's and a friend of the other side. as mike said, i couldn't agree more. we have

switched sides and i think we're accustomed to thinking about policy shifts, maneuvers, not 180 degree flips. >> and the marco. >> rubios and lindsey graham's of the world, you know, this this has gotten so far ahead of themselves that they they have nowhere to be except jumping on board trump's sinking ship. i mean, i wish that they stood up because they have real power. if the us congress wanted to say no, you have to deliver these weapons systems. there are ways in which republican majorities could compel that. and let's be clear, this isn't like political showmanship. part of what i hate, nicole, is that this gets talked about as if it's just another political fight. there are kids on the other side of those bombs, like the air defense systems. those are some of the most important american military assistance we provide. if we cut them off, they're not going to have air defense systems that can shoot down those drones and those missiles, and kids are going to die in ukraine. if we're not sharing intelligence, they're not going to be able to fight back and know where the russians are. if elon musk cuts starlink off, they're just not going to be

operating as a military without internet access. so this is life and death stuff. and these republicans seem to want to pretend like if they put their head down some, at some point it will go away or become better. it's going to get worse because mike's right. they're trying to dictate the terms of surrender to ukraine, which is not peace. it is the recipe for further aggression from russia to cannibalize more of ukraine over time, and potentially to threaten nato allies to test that article five commitment from the united states in places like the baltics. so they seem to be waiting for a tomorrow. that's never going to come as long as donald trump is calling all the shots. >> they're on the side. they're not just on donald trump sinking ship. they're on putin's side. yeah, and i have to sneak in a break. but what putin's side has done is carry out war crimes in bucha, atrocities against civilians. and to your point, including children, we have to sneak in a quick break. we'll all be right back on the other side. >> all of this. >> can be overwhelming, but it is. important to remember. >> there are still checks and balances. >> there's a lot being thrown at

the american people right now, and it is really important to pay attention to it, but it is just as important to recognize. >> how many. >> of. >> those things are getting announced. but they're not happening. >> at all, or at least not yet. just try to remember we are not looking at the final score. we are still in the first quarter. keep your pads on. the game has keep your pads on. the game has just begun. for more than a decade farxiga has been trusted again and again, and again. [crowd chant] far-xi-ga ask your doctor about farxiga. ♪♪ when you really need to sleep. ask your doctor about farxiga. you reach for the really good stuff. zzzquil ultra helps you sleep better and longer when you need it most. its non-habit forming and powered by the makers of nyquil.

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>> buying a car is kind of a big deal. there's like a million. >> options and you deserve something you love. at cargurus, we get it as. >> the number one most. >> visited car shopping site. we make sure your big deal is the best deal. >> do you, mr. president, think. >> that vladimir putin is taking advantage of the us. >> pause right now on intelligence and. >> military aid to ukraine? >> no. >> i actually think he's doing what anybody else would do. i think he's a i think he wants to get it stopped and settled. and i think he's hitting them harder than than he's been hitting him. and i think probably anybody in that position would be doing that right now. he wants to get it ended. and i think ukraine wants to get it ended. but i don't see it's crazy. they're taking tremendous punishment. i don't quite get it, but i suspect michael he probably

wants to get it ended. >> ambassador mcfaul, what do you as an american? and if you're alive right now, you have no lived experience of being the bad guys, right? but what do you do as an american? if the american president is defending putin and understands exactly what putin's doing? this is trump's word, quote, he, vladimir putin, is hitting them. the ukrainians, our ally, harder than he's been hitting them. and i think probably anyone in that position would be doing that right now. anybody in what position? the side of the autocracy, the murderous dictator, vladimir putin? >> i'm running out. >> of words of what to say. first of all, it's thank you for raising. >> that that. >> statement from president. >> george w bush that is. >> important because we haven't heard from presidents. >> like that. >> i'm glad to hear him getting. >> into it. >> secondly. >> not not. >> what anybody. >> else would do. i wouldn't do that. >> i don't think. barack obama.

>> would do that. >> i don't think. >> george w bush. >> would do that. >> this is insane. that trump has taken this. >> what aboutism. >> to the extent. >> that he. >> does, because he just wants to be on putin's side. and then. >> third. >> what do we do? >> well, when. >> we get. >> on your. television show, we talk about it. >> and we urge our americans to say, we don't want to be on the side of evil. just like ben was saying, i don't want to be on the side. >> of, of. >> of a dictator. who captures, you. >> know. >> imprisons 20,000 ukrainian children who bombed. civilians every day, who kills them. that's called terrorism. >> i know a lot. >> of. americans that don't want to be on that side of that. and therefore we got to speak out. you got to call your. >> members of congress. >> yes. those senators don't have any courage now. >> but as. >> one senator. >> from the democratic. >> party said. >> to me. >> mike, they'll find their courage when mr. trump's. >> approval ratings. >> drops lower. we've got to be. >> on. >> this because it's not just. immoral for us to be. on the side. of this. imperial

dictator, vladimir putin. it's not in america's. long term national security interest. we're going to abandon democratic europe for this two bit thug. we're going to pull back from the rest. >> of the world. that will. >> not be in our long term interests. and so we've got to be engaged. trump may. >> want. >> to go this way, but i don't. >> want to. >> go this way. and i hope the american people are on my side. >> not his. >> well, and just to put a finer point on it, but iran's closest allies are north korea and iran. i mean, russia's closest allies are north korea and iran. so i don't think any american sees the. >> closest ally is xi jinping. >> so all. >> those those hawks in the republican party that all talk, we got to pivot to asia. >> you know, we. >> can't be there. that is a ridiculous strategy. if we are in a long term struggle for great power competition with china, which i think we are, then the one thing you can't do is throw away your best card. i'm using trump's words on.

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