best and brightest. by all means, go ahead. as the kids are saying these days, go ahead and f around to the lady. you're going to find out. >> in the end, the bill was not considered by the senate committee this week, which means it is likely dead this year. but doctor crosby, speaking truth to power is exactly what paul was talking about tonight. he's a warrior, and he's taking us off the air tonight. all right, gang. zeke. naira. charles. paul, thank you for joining me. great to see you. paul can whip out his flask now but we are signing off. i wish you a very good night. remember, you can catch the nightcap again saturdays at 11 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. but for now, we are signing off from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news. thanks for staying up late. i'll see you at staying up late. i'll see you at the end of monday. i'm sorry more than i can express. every day, it runs through me.

cory nicolet: it felt like there was something going on. the multiple red flags. robert milby: he is armed with more than one handgun, an ar-15 with him, a shotgun. to say cold-blooded doesn't really capture what happened in that driveway. amanda niles: josh and amber, they're dead. i'm like, oh, my god, no. it sounded like it was premeditated. they had no idea what was coming their way. man: they put explosives in the door that blow the door. dennis murphy: what a show. it's like a commando operation. man: it was straight out the military. i blame myself for everything. [music playing] dennis murphy (voiceover): this story about young couples and their children, their tangled relationships is so disturbing,

you might question what kind of creatures we humans are. you've been forewarned. dennis murphy: we have a lot of strange cases in the course of "dateline," but this one has a chillingness to it that is unmatched. it's something you don't usually hear about. dennis murphy (voiceover): the trip into the darkness begins actually on a sunny fall day, october 22, 2018, in the sleepy town of sodus in way upstate new york. tiffany thayer was heading out to the grocery when her two-year-old got fussy about wanting candy. tiffany thayer: we went to the kitchen to grab gummy bears and saw my neighbor talking with a gentleman outside and didn't think nothing of it. dennis murphy (voiceover): her neighbor, josh, leaning against his truck, seemed deep in conversation with someone she didn't recognize. josh's girlfriend, amber, had just pulled into the driveway. tiffany reached for the gummy bears, and that's when she heard it-- a gunshot. i turn back out my kitchen window

and see josh grab his chest and amber, at that point, head through her car in reverse. and right as she was past the shooter, he turned and shot her right in the head. dennis murphy (voiceover): tiffany threw herself on top of her child, crawled to her front door, and bolted the lock. more shots followed. pop, pop, pop-- too many to count. shots just kept ringing out. it was crazy. dennis murphy (voiceover): she called 911. as it turned out, wayne county sheriff's sergeant matt carr was supervising an eviction just a few houses away. he was dispatched to the scene. i immediately have people coming at me. and these are neighbors. these are not-- at that time, i'm hoping they're neighbors. i'm not really sure who people are. dennis murphy (voiceover): it took the sergeant a moment to get his bearings, but for him, those images would be seared in forever. there was the homeowner, the victim, josh niles, half under the truck where he tried to take cover. he'd been shot multiple times. amber washburn, his girlfriend,

was dead draped over the center console of her car, which had come to rest in the driveway across the street. this is a gruesome thing you've come upon. absolutely. you've got two dead in a pretty quiet neighborhood. absolutely. probably one of the worst things i've ever seen. dennis murphy (voiceover): as the sergeant approached amber's car, he found something as unexpected as it was cruel. poised in a car seat right behind the murdered mom was a child, very much alive, josh and amber's four-year-old son. i can honestly say i can still see the child in the back seat gripping his four-piece chicken mcnuggets. that's still-- i can see it vividly so. academy and the streets don't really prepare you for that kind of thing. no, it does not. dennis murphy (voiceover): the sergeant did his best to comfort the boy as he waited for fellow officers to respond. the neighbors, witnesses now, were telling the officer they'd seen the shooter, black sweatshirt and green hat, sprinting away through backyards. police officer. anybody in there, come out right now. [inaudible] police! dennis murphy (voiceover): a manhunt

was underway for an apparently stone-cold killer. [inaudible] anybody in there? dennis murphy (voiceover): robert milby was assigned as the lead detective on the case. robert milby: we had no idea immediately where that person had gone. we had a general direction. when the calls first started coming out, one of the first parts of the operation was to shut down the school, which was nearby. so the central school district was immediately put into lockdown. so you hope this is all there is. you don't want it, but who knows, right? right. do you lock down the neighborhood? is that possible? we had made some phone calls to the neighborhood to what we call a reverse 911 or a rave alert. and neighborhood calls are made to advise people to shelter in their homes. [inaudible] k9. if anybody's inside, speak out now. you will get bit. dennis murphy (voiceover): k9s were brought in for the street-to-street search. the state police sent up a helicopter. matt car: so we were checking houses, barns, sheds, houses that people had alerted us to that

wanted their houses checked. officer: you didn't see anybody run through here at all? in the command center early on, what was the theory? what did they think they had here? at that time, we thought we had still somebody contained inside the perimeter as it was expanded due to sightings. you thought the shooter was on the ground there, huh? yes, maybe holed up in a building or a car or outbuilding, something like that. officer: no running? nobody running through here? dennis murphy (voiceover): meanwhile, news of the shooting was already out there on social media. josh's sister nicole first learned of it on facebook. her spirit slumped when she saw the name of the street where it happened. i called 911 and said, that's near my brother's house. and the operator said, well, what's your brother's name? i said, his name is joshua niles. and he said, i have no information for you, but a cop will get a hold of you. that's not good. no, my heart sank. dennis murphy (voiceover): the police did call, but they reached josh's parents first. his mom, barb niles. she goes, there's been a shooting,

and it involved your son. i think she said he passed away or something. and i just-- i broke down. i just kept saying, no, not my josh. it can't be my josh. and i go, what about amber? and she said, she's gone, too. and i'm like, oh, my god, no. and i just-- i lost it. dennis murphy (voiceover): she then had to tell her other children, josh's two brothers and his younger sister, amanda. my mom was calling me. and instantly, i knew something wasn't right, just from her cry. it was almost like a scream. and i kept yelling at her, mom, what? what? what? and then she was like, josh. it was josh. and she was like, amber, too. josh and amber, they're dead. so i wanted to do something. like, i tried to leave. like, i ran out the house. i wanted to go save them. but you can't. dennis murphy (voiceover): as josh and amber's families wrestled with grief, the town of sodus hunkered down.

somewhere out there was a killer still on the loose, but where? coming up. officer: you guys see anything at all? dennis murphy (voiceover): the search was urgent, the fear instant. why did this killer target josh and amber? i had no clue whatsoever. it didn't appear to be a home invasion gone wrong or anything like that. no. no, and it sounded like it was premeditated. dennis murphy (voiceover): and later-- dennis murphy (voiceover): --the midnight ride in the middle of nowhere that would break the case wide open. there was something going on. and it just didn't fit right. dennis murphy (voiceover): when "dateline" continues. (♪♪) (phone dings) for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults, nurtec odt can provide relief in 2 hours which can last up to 2 days. (♪♪) don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur even days after use,

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and his longtime girlfriend amber gunned down in their driveway. amber's sister angeline got the voicemail from their dad. he said, ang, call me. i've got some really hard news. and just the urgency and the pain in his voice was just-- it was the most difficult thing to hear. i knew at that point what had happened. and i'm still thinking. i'm like, you know, maybe she's still alive. maybe they're still alive. and then my brain's going, but they said there was two people dead. you know? dennis murphy (voiceover): amber's parents, chris and marsha, had not only lost their daughter, but were now worried about josh, jr., their grandson who witnessed the shooting. marsha wasburn: obviously, the first thing is, where is my grandson? where was he? because we knew the time, around 2 o'clock, and we knew that was when she would be getting home with him from school. you know, they told us that, yes, he was in the backseat of the car, but he was ok. dennis murphy (voiceover): ok physically, but presumably in shock and otherwise unable to shed

light on the crime. four-year-old josh, jr., had been diagnosed with autism and is non-verbal. dennis murphy: he's right in the backseat in his kid's seat. - yes, yes. yeah, he sell everything. we know he did. there's the gun coming through the window, shooting. exactly. officer: did you guys see anything at all? dennis murphy (voiceover): as the manhunt continued in sodus, amber's family puzzled over the killings. they could not figure out who would want to harm josh and their innocent amber. i had no clue whatsoever. no thoughts, no suspicions. i was completely clueless. you know-- it didn't appear to be a home invasion gone wrong or anything like that. nope. no, and it sounded like it was premeditated from the little bits and pieces that we can gather for those first couple of days. dennis murphy (voiceover): 24-year-old amber, with her love of gardening and professional bakery job, seemed an especially unlikely target. she was such a sweet old soul. she was kind. she was easy to get along with. everyone liked her. dennis murphy (voiceover): josh's parents, gene and barb, thought the same thing

about their son. josh had no enemies that they knew of. his family says he was just a hardworking guy with a flair for cooking. he'd picked up a few things at his dad's restaurant growing up. we brought him under our wing and became my right-hand man. he knew his way around the kitchen by the end of the day. he was great. dennis murphy (voiceover): in fact, josh had been putting a nice life together for himself. a new business was taking off. and just that week, he told his mom that he and amber were thinking of making it official. he says, yeah, and we're thinking about finally getting married. i'm like, joshua? dennis murphy: they were doing pretty well together. wonderful. bought a new house, getting their life started. josh had a lawn care business he was starting off. like, they were on the road to success. everything's going up. everything was going up. dennis murphy (voiceover): everyone thought josh and amber were especially devoted parents, too. his mom remembers with affection the lighthearted way he had told her that josh, jr. was on the way. i got up to make my coffee like i always do.

and there's an envelope right in front of my coffee. and it says, mom, dad. so i take it down, and i open it up. and there's an ultrasound picture and a baby bib, something like, boys are from heaven or something. and i went, what? yeah. meet your grandson, huh? yeah. yeah. so i texted him, do you have something to tell me? baby came with some difficulties, would be a challenge for some parents. both: right. he was probably a year and a half, two years old before we realized, you know-- gene niles: he was on the spectrum. barbara niles: that he was autistic. gene niles: right. barbara niles: right. dennis murphy: how did they, as a couple, deal with that? they dealt very well with it. very well. i didn't know how my brother would react to having a special needs. it didn't faze him. he's a normal kid to him. and amber was just wonderful with him, carefree with him. he could have a fit, and she would just giggle and go about her business like she-- it

didn't upset her or anything. dennis murphy (voiceover): but josh, jr., wasn't the only child in their lives. josh and amber were also loving parents to two children from josh's previous relationship. the custody agreement had given josh and amber the summer months to care for them. dennis murphy: did it matter to your sister that the new boyfriend, josh, came with kids already, that he had kind of a long-term relationship? no, amber always loved kids. she did fantastic with my kids. and she wore it well. dennis murphy (voiceover): josh's ex-girlfriend and mother to the children is a woman named charlene childers. she gave amber the stamp of approval for being such a loving second mom. dennis murphy: were you ok with her being around your children? yeah. i was actually pretty-- i was fine with amber being around my kids because she took them in as she was-- they were her own. and she loved my children. dennis murphy (voiceover): charlene lived in texas some 1,600 miles away. dennis murphy: how do you find out? i got home from work on monday, the 22nd of october.

and i start looking at facebook, and i saw the news articles of shootings in sodus. she wanted news of her children, who, at that moment, were in new york with josh and amber. luckily, they were at school, out of harm's way. she called josh's mom. dennis murphy: charlene's on the phone. yeah, she called me, and she said, she heard, you know? and i just told her. i said, somebody killed josh. dennis murphy (voiceover): charlene hit the road from texas as detective milby was trying to get a handle on the crime scene. he was struck by the sheer awfulness of it with a wounded, but still alive josh having to witness his girlfriend's execution. so even though josh is shot, he's aware that his girlfriend is in peril here. yes. probably sees her get shot. yes, he does. eyewitness accounts tell us that he was yelling for her. and then multiple shots as he tries to crawl for cover under his vehicle and doesn't make it in. that's correct. this is a horrible crime. it was. it was perhaps one of the worst i've seen.

i mean, to say cold-blooded doesn't really capture what happened in that driveway. no. dennis murphy (voiceover): from everything the detective was seeing, it was a very personal crime. there was several casings on the ground that told us that whoever wanted josh niles dead was there to make sure that it was-- there was no chance he was going to live. dennis murphy (voiceover): josh niles had been shot 10 times-- a message killing, but one delivered by whom? coming up. we were afraid for our families because we don't know the reason. we don't know who did this. dennis murphy (voiceover): a mysterious figure. there's a couple of different videos of a person matching the description of what the witnesses had seen walking down the sidewalk towards josh and amber's home. dennis murphy (voiceover): a mask on the ground. did you worry then we've got a-- yeah. dennis murphy: --a hoodie-wearing gunman in the neighborhood killing people? i was terrified to be home, just with me and the kids. watch out the window. mm-hmm, it was scary. dennis murphy (voiceover): when "dateline" continues.

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that people have out there. we're able to get people of interest on video. so a person appears before the time of the shooting, i'm guessing, huh? that is correct. there's a couple of different videos of a person matching the description of what the witnesses had seen walking down the sidewalk towards josh and amber's home. dennis murphy (voiceover): here's one of them. a person in a black hoodie walks through the frame at 1:57 pm about 10 minutes before the murder. you can't see the face. at 1:58 pm, the figure appears on camera again. so the victims are being surveilled? we've come to find out that that is exactly what happened. dennis murphy (voiceover): and another critical piece of evidence had been bagged and sent to the lab for analysis. we have a black mask approximately 30 yards east of newark street on elmwood. dennis murphy (voiceover): a ski mask lost or dropped by the shooter, apparently, as he ran from the scene. one of the k9s sniffed it out. did it look to you freshly tossed or dropped?

had been tramped on in the mud or-- it was an under armour ski mask, so i mean, that's not something that usually people just drop or discard. so i mean they're $30, $40. pretty pricey piece of gear. yes, it's not something that-- i know if i dropped it, i would have went back for it. dennis murphy (voiceover): would the lab techs come up with dna? meanwhile, investigators reviewed the statement the neighbor had given them about what she'd seen out her kitchen window. she said that based on body language, josh seemed to know his killer. the gentleman was sitting at a picnic table. and josh, for some reason, had pulled his truck up next to the picnic table. and he was just leaning up against the tail bed of his truck, just nonchalantly, just sitting there talking. dennis murphy (voiceover): detectives needed to do a little more digging into the life of josh niles. they conducted interviews with his family. we all met at nicole's. and the police came to see us personally there. you have anything for them? i didn't know what-- i had no idea at first. i couldn't even imagine who would want to do this to him.

dennis murphy (voiceover): josh's sister amanda thought it must be a burglary. maybe somebody did try to, like, rob him or wrong time. like-- did you worry then we've got-- yeah. --a hoodie-wearing gunman in the neighborhood killing people? schools are on lockdown. yeah, i was terrified to be home, just with me and the kids. watch out the window. mm-hmm, it was scary. dennis murphy (voiceover): his dad wondered if it was a case of mistaken identity. we thought maybe he's a new homeowner. maybe someone thought, oh, this guy is bad that lived here before josh, and let's go do something. nothing made any sense anymore. no. not at all. i couldn't figure anybody that would want to kill my son and his beautiful girlfriend. it just didn't even seem real. dennis murphy (voiceover): detectives also wanted to speak to josh's ex, charlene. they first reached this mother of two of his children as she'd been driving in from texas the night of the shooting. dennis murphy: so this is only a voice on the phone. what are you hearing?

what do you think you have here? i think i've got a quiet little southern belle, is how she put herself on the phone. demure? very demure. very cooperative. dennis murphy (voiceover): but she had some unladylike venting to do about josh. she had given us a little bit of information that she had had a problem with josh in the past, that there were several police reports. dennis murphy (voiceover): charlene told us some of what she shared with the police. she says that despite josh's sunny demeanor, in private, he could be a terror. she said he masked his anger issues with drugs. he was fine as long as he had his pot, as long as he had his marijuana to smoke. other than that-- he was tranquil, huh? yeah. if he didn't, then things got bad. if things didn't go the way he wanted it to, things got bad. and when i say bad, i mean for me. dennis murphy (voiceover): she claims josh got violent on more than one occasion. he threw a barstool past our nine-month-old daughter's head. this is, what, like just throwing a switch? all of a sudden, he's a different guy, huh?

yeah. and you don't know what's going to trigger him. and it just-- it went on that entire day. he'd beat the crap out of me, and you know? the cops came. and you stayed? yeah. is there a point where you say, look, this isn't working out? you know? i like you, but it's not working out for the two of us. yeah-- we're not meant to be together. there was, and i had left. and then for some reason, i fell back into it. and we ended up having another child. and then about a year after that is when i just said, i can't do it. dennis murphy (voiceover): according to police, charlene called the cops on josh several times. in one incident, he was arrested and pleaded guilty to unlawful imprisonment after charlene said he tried to choke her. she says she was so scarred by the relationship, she went so far as to warn amber, his current girlfriend. unfortunately, i had to warn her. i was like, you know. did you take her side and said, look out for this guy?

yeah, i said be careful. about what? be very careful because he does have a temper, and i don't want you to get hurt like i did. dennis murphy (voiceover): anger, drugs, and a warning from the ex. if what charlene was saying was true, it cast josh and his relationship with women in a whole new light. coming up. what role does he play in this? he plays a pretty pivotal role. dennis murphy (voiceover): a possible suspect, and get this-- he's loud and proud. he saw himself as celebrity status. he was quite taken with the fact that he was what he called a suspect. we were just trying to put pieces of the case together. he called himself a suspect. i'm guessing this guy is talking himself into a jam. he's talking himself into getting questioned again, that's for sure. and then that happened. oh, yes, it did. dennis murphy (voiceover): when "dateline" continues. congratulations. here are the keys. congratulations. here's the water heater that somehow passed inspection but will definitely flood your basement. -wait. -congratulations.

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stand up for science rallies to object to the trump administration's funding freezes and staffing cuts at the national institutes of health. recent decisions by the. department of government efficiency have left critical research of cancer, heart disease and diabetes in limbo, and officials in santa fe, new mexico saying oscar winning actor gene hackman died of cardiovascular disease complicated by alzheimer's. his wife died seven days prior from hantavirus, which has spread to humans. >> from rodents. >> from rodents. >> for now. back to two days after the murders, mourners gathered outside josh and amber's home for a vigil. amber's sister angela still on high alert. i remember just having this sense of, is someone watching me? did you ask law enforcement, do we have reason to be nervous here? yeah, and they told us we didn't. but still, it doesn't always settle your mind. dennis murphy (voiceover): her parents, chris and marsha, were struggling with how close they'd come to losing their grandson, too,

josh, jr., who'd been right behind amber in the car. there might have been three victims that day. it could have been, right. thank god it wasn't. dennis murphy (voiceover): shoulder to shoulder with the distraught family and friends was charlene, josh's ex, demanding justice as the news cameras rolled. whoever did it has now made it to where my kids grow up without a dad. and that's nothing a kid should ever have to do. it's not something that you ever want to find out. the most i have to say to y'all is, justice needs to be served. my kids need that closure. dennis murphy (voiceover): josh's family hadn't seen much of charlene since the breakup. and truth be told, they hadn't missed her much. his sister, amanda. dennis murphy: what did you think of her, amanda? at first, i liked her. she was nice and always smiling, seemed to make him happy. but as the years went on, you could see it was a very unhealthy relationship. when you say that, what are you talking about? they would always fight and bicker, not getting along.

true rumor that sometimes she would call the cops on him? - all the time. all the time. and he would call me and say, charlene called the cops on me again. dennis murphy (voiceover): josh's sisters say that charlene, not their brother, was the real hothead in the relationship, an instigator with 911 on speed dial. dennis murphy: did anybody pull him aside and, bro, are you going to deal with this? we've always pulled him aside and said, this isn't a relationship. this is not how a relationship is supposed to be. you need to just break it off. those two were like fire and water. they just couldn't be together. who got in whose face? they were both good at it. but she liked to pick at him. it was almost like she wasn't happy unless he was mad. that doesn't sound like any way to get out of bed and go to work. no. dennis murphy (voiceover): everyone agreed that josh and charlene were better apart. and in recent years, with more than 1,000 miles between them, the agreed-on co-parenting approach seemed to work. i had them during the school year, and he would get them a week after school ended to a week

before school started and every other christmas. dennis murphy (voiceover): still, the history of tension between them put charlene in the investigators' crosshairs. well, we were very interested in charlene. and i had asked her to come in once she got settled, to come in and help us try to figure out who had done this to her ex, the father of her children. dennis murphy (voiceover): and very quickly, they were able to conclude one thing for sure. dennis murphy: detective, were you able to rule out right away that she was not anywhere near the driveway that day? i believed because of phone conversations that i had had with her that she was, in fact, in texas on the day of the murders. dennis murphy (voiceover): so charlene wasn't the shooter, wasn't in new york on the day of the murder. but it turns out she did have close ties to sodus, new york, close ties there to a local guy. she had also mentioned during one of her phone calls that she wanted her current boyfriend, who lived in new york, to come and pick up the children. dennis murphy (voiceover): his name was casey, and he lived in a town near sodus. josh and amber's family members even remember him consoling charlene after the murders,

as though an official mourner. casey was with charlene the whole time we were doing visuals for my brother and having get-togethers at my house. dennis murphy (voiceover): so here was a theory. if charlene did, in fact, have this explosive relationship with josh, maybe her current boyfriend, this casey, had evened the score by killing josh as a demented lover's gift. what role does he play in this? he plays a pretty pivotal role. dennis murphy (voiceover): police say casey was a person of interest. he also had a scrape with the law. he and charlene dated when she was just 14 and he 19. they had known each other in the past. casey had actually been arrested in the past for having a relationship with charlene when she was underage. dennis murphy (voiceover): casey was on the list, someone detectives wanted to speak to and right away. we reached out to him and brought him in for an interview, which he complied 100% and told us that he was just the boyfriend of charlene,

and he didn't know anything about the shooting. dennis murphy (voiceover): but this was weird. after he left the sheriff's department, why was he bragging to his buddies about being investigated in a double homicide? we found out through some other people that he saw himself as celebrity status. oh. he was quite taken with the fact that he was what he called a suspect. we were just trying to put pieces of the case together. he called himself a suspect and started to reach out to people that he hadn't talked to in years to tell them that he was a suspect. that's, me, me, me, huh? yes. dennis murphy (voiceover): also unsettling, detective milby learned that chacey was trying to offload a gun. i'm guessing this guy is talking himself into a jam. he's talking himself into getting questioned again, that's for sure. and that happened? oh, yes, it did. dennis murphy (voiceover): coming up, police uncover new information about casey miller. he was actually trying to get rid of a gun. dennis murphy (voiceover): and they have

a new question for charlene. how many men is too many men? well, there's casey miller, but then we also find out there's her husband, tim dean. and who is tim dean? tim dean is a former chief of police of sunray, texas. tim is your husband. yes. casey's your boyfriend. yes. you've got a complicated life, charlene, huh? i know i do. dennis murphy (voiceover): when "dateline" continues. upset stomach iberogast indigestion iberogast bloating iberogast thanks to a unique combination of herbs, iberogast helps relieve six digestive symptoms to help you feel better. six digestive symptoms. the power of nature. iberogast. ♪ it's native ♪ 24-hour moisturizing body wash that locks in 4 times the moisturizers of your old body wash! wow! and about half the ingredients! heavenly! clean, moisturizing body wash isn't a myth- it's native! jordan's sore nose let out a fiery sneeze, so dad grabbed puffs plus lotion

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>> we're going to start with breaking news on capitol hill. >> mounting questions. >> over the future. >> of tiktok in. >> the us. >> president trump has promised. >> to carry out the largest. >> deportation force. >> in american history. >> reporting from. >> philadelphia. >> el paso. >> and the palisades. >> virginia. from msnbc world >> virginia. from msnbc world amber and josh had been gunned down in their driveway and laid to rest. now detectives working their murders were talking to a local guy who lived not far from the scene, casey, charlene's boyfriend. detectives learned something sketchy about him. he was actually trying to get rid of a gun. dennis murphy (voiceover): the gun in question was a glock 9 millimeter semi-automatic pistol, pink in color. and cops knew it was the same caliber gun that had killed josh and amber. and when detectives called casey back for more details about the handgun, he explained the weapon's backstory. his girlfriend, charlene, who'd been so quick to badmouth josh, she owned a pink glock.

and charlene had worked in private security, i'm told, is that right? correct. she brought the handgun to new york. dennis murphy (voiceover): but casey said it was all totally innocent. charlene had a permit to carry the gun in texas, but not in new york state. in her haste to get up to sodus after the murders, she said she inadvertently neglected to leave the gun at home. casey reached out to some of the people that he knew and tried to get those who had permits to take care of that weapon for her. dennis murphy (voiceover): did the story of the pink gun sound a little fishy? maybe, but a ballistics test ruled out that particular glock as the one that killed the couple. and casey had an alibi that checked out. he was at work when the shooting happened. he had arrived at work on time. he was at work on the day of the shooting. dennis murphy (voiceover): but detectives weren't quite done with poking around in the life of josh's ex-girlfriend, charlene. and they found out something quite curious. casey was her local boyfriend, but not the only man in her life.

there was tim down in texas. well, there's casey miller, but then we also find out there's her husband, tim dean. and who's tim dean? tim dean is a former chief of police of sunray, texas. dennis murphy: tim is your husband. yes. casey's your boyfriend. yes. you don't need me to tell you you've got a complicated life, charlene, huh? no, i know i do. dennis murphy (voiceover): a complicated life that was of keen interest to investigators. it went like this. long after charlene broke up with josh, she met husband, tim. this was when they both worked for the dumas texas police department. charlene was the animal control officer there and tim a sergeant. charlene says she fell for tim's "aw, shucks" demeanor. he was the cowboy. he wore the cowboy hat. he had the cowboy boots. he had the old school manners. why did that work for you at that point in your life? because that's how i was raised. he reminded me of my dad. he played the guitar just like my dad did.

tim knew that? yes. dennis murphy (voiceover): but not long after they got married, it all took a turn for the worse. tim dean had a three-year-old daughter from a previous marriage. he got in serious trouble after he was videoed slapping the child across the face. dennis murphy: so what was the incident? he was accused of abusing his three-year-old daughter. his own daughter? his own daughter. and charlene is recording it on her phone or something? charlene recorded the incident on her phone, and that information winds up getting out to some of charlene's friends. and that is forwarded to the authorities. and they conduct an investigation in texas. dennis murphy (voiceover): as a result, police chief dean lost custody of the young girl. and because he was living in the same house with charlene's two kids with josh, child protective services in texas alerted josh. turns out he was already on his way to texas to pick up his kids for the summer.

he got a phone call from cps. - child protective services? - yes. the agency in-- the agency in texas. in texas, ok. you need to come get your kids. my brother said, i'm on my way to get my kids. why? what's going on? he said, i'll tell you when you get here. dennis murphy: what did he think about that? i think he was scared for his children because he didn't really know what was going on. dennis murphy (voiceover): so josh took the kids for the summer as planned and decided to file for full custody. before the summer was over, a judge in new york ruled in his favor that the kids should stay with him and not go back to charlene and tim in texas. this was just a few months before the murders. charlene had lost her kids, and it hit her hard. this is a huge setback for you, though, charlene. you've lost the kids. yes, it is. it angers me and frustrates me, and-- is it anger directed at the state? is it aimed at josh? is it aimed at tim, who, in a way, got you in all of this? honestly, it's aimed at everybody. dennis murphy (voiceover): but she had a plan, convinced the family courts that she was done with husband, tim dean,

divorce him, and he would no longer be an issue. problem solved. in august, we had our last custody hearing. we were-- i told him, look, i'll divorce my husband, get my kids back. and they said, well, we're going to leave the kids with josh for right now. when you get the divorce settled, then we'll come back and we'll look at it. dennis murphy (voiceover): that's what was going on in the weeks leading up to the murders-- josh and charlene at odds over custody of their kids, all because of charlene's husband, tim dean. to find out if this intriguing bit of drama had anything to do with the crime, the investigation was now headed to the great state of texas. coming up. dennis murphy (voiceover): a road trip to nowhere is about to shift this case into high gear. a.

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he showed me around sunray. so tell me about towns like this in the panhandle. who lives here? what goes on? small town america. farming is pretty dominantly, except for up here, they have the valero oil refinery. i saw refineries. i saw a lot of pumpjacks coming in. pumpjacks. and wind farm. and wind farms are-- yes, they're taking over. dennis murphy (voiceover): the reason we went to sunray is because it's the town where charlene's husband, tim dean, served as the chief of police. the department had just three officers. so what's the mission of being a small police force in a town like this in the panhandle? narcotics is a haven for small town america. really? absolutely. so that's your chronic crime problem? theft and narcotics. wow. dennis murphy (voiceover): lieutenant flood knew charlene's husband, tim dean, quite well. he'd hired him years earlier and was happy to talk when new york police called, asking about his history. dennis murphy: tell me about this guy. who did you meet back when?

tim came in. he appeared to be a trainable individual. and that's what we were looking for. did he have a fire in his belly for law enforcement? he'd been thinking about it since he was a kid, or? he was working at amarillo police department with their academy. it didn't work out for him. and so he applied to dumas. dennis murphy (voiceover): a few years later, dean got the top job in sunray, but that uniform job ended as quickly as a slap to the face of his three-year-old daughter. the rangers looked at that smartphone video of the incident taken by his wife and promptly arrested him. tim resigned his position with the police. dennis murphy: so goodbye, police chief job. for him, yes. that's got to be a shocker right away. our police chief is arrested, is out of office because of a child abuse allegation. yes, yes. and at that point, things start going south for mr. dean. dennis murphy (voiceover): with his job gone, the state taking away his daughter and charlene's two kids as well, plus a pending divorce tim dean's life was in a tailspin. he actually had to move out and move to a house in dumas.

he's out of his job, away from his kid, out of the house. yes. dennis murphy (voiceover): and now new york investigators were wondering if that tailspin had led to a very dark act-- a double homicide. it was kind of a shock. like, what's going on? this-- why are we thinking this? why are we thinking tim? dennis murphy (voiceover): here's why it's just a theory. if losing custody was the reason charlene was divorcing him, maybe tim dean had a reason to want josh and amber dead. maybe tim dean could save his marriage if he helped charlene get her kids back. one way to do that-- kill their dad, josh. courts would have no choice but to return the kids to their mom in texas. dennis murphy: their question, is this guy, timothy dean, our guy in the driveway with a gun? - exactly. dennis murphy: is he our shooter? exactly. so the question is, where has he been? what's his alibi? exactly. so we started trying to piece it together. dennis murphy (voiceover): they obtained a warrant for dean's cell phone records, scrolled through it, and found something intriguing. two days before the murders, tim dean wasn't at home in texas.

he was 400 miles away in emporia, kansas. and he'd placed a call to 911. deputy cory nicolet of the lyon county sheriff's office was the kansas officer who responded to the call. he had called it in that he had had a wreck and was reporting the wreck. dennis murphy (voiceover): it was 4:00 am when deputy nicolet came upon tim dean by the side of a dark highway. the deputy turned on his body cam. cory nicolet: and he was sitting in a ditch about two feet off the roadway. and he got out and told me that he was making a u-turn and hit something. paperwork for this thing. it's going to. this thing. it's going to. >> be fine. it's a damn dennis murphy (voiceover): tim explained he was lost and looking for a gas station.

dennis murphy (voiceover): the deputy requested a tow, then asked him where he was headed. gone lately. more or less living out of my car. >> but you had money to get a rental? rental? >> y dennis murphy (voiceover): cops like asking questions, and tim dean apparently liked answering them. dennis murphy (voiceover): the body cam was still rolling as they chatted in the patrol car. it started to sound like dr. phil. said you didn't have. >> a home. >> no, we have. >> a pending. >> divorce and all that fun

stuff. yeah. that's mine. >> pending divorce. is that why >> pending divorce. is that why dennis murphy (voiceover): he told the officer about losing not just his wife, but also his job. what are you, a cop at dumas first and then sunray. why'd you quit copping? well, i off the da, and. >> that can happen. i was tackling. >> some pretty big public >> some pretty big public dennis murphy (voiceover): the officer didn't know that this conversation would be looked at again later. he just knew that he was getting a weird vibe. at that point, then i thought, ok. you know, this guy just said he'd recently been arrested after being a cop for 10 years. why is he in kansas? what's going on?

insurance. they're gonna want more pictures than normal. is there anything in there i need to know about? >> no. >> okay. i've got a shotgun in >> okay. i've got a shotgun in there, but. okay. dennis murphy (voiceover): tim dean's story was making the deputy twitch. he passed on his concerns to the backup officer on scene. >> firearm on him. he's got a concealed carry. concealed carry. >> getting a. at that point, i keyed up, there's more than meets the eye here. but i didn't know what. oh, it's my personal-- dennis murphy (voiceover): soon, they'd learn a lot more about this disgraced police chief in a roadside ditch in kansas in the middle of the night. coming up. did he come in the shop? yeah.

we should have video in the shop. - do you? - we should. we've got a camera right there. they had video of timothy dean showing up to pick up a tote. and i could see in the video he walked out with a concealable ballistic vest and a 12 gauge shotgun. dennis murphy (voiceover): timothy dean's long, strange trip. exactly what was he up to? i'm glad you guys are following up on this because i even told him i had weird vibes about all this. dennis murphy (voiceover): and later, one, two, three in the interrogation room. dennis murphy (voiceover): this double murder would have a triple twist. when "dateline" continues. could wipe your personal. >> data off the internet. >> with one. click incogni

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in the middle of the night. no big deal, but something about his story was off somehow. cory nicolet: it felt like there was something going on. and it just didn't fit right. dennis murphy (voiceover): the strange encounter had all but left his mind when, a few days later, the deputy got a surprise call from the fbi asking about that traffic accident. the kansas 911 call had popped up during the search of tim dean's cell phone records, and the fbi was trying to create a timeline for tim dean in a murder investigation. i thought, well, ok, i don't know what i have to offer for this, but here's everything i've got to try to help. dennis murphy (voiceover): so now deputy nicolet of the lyon county sheriff's department in kansas found himself pulled into a growing multistate, multi-agency investigation. they wanted to hear everything. he's asking me if i'd work this wreck and who was there, if he said where he was going. dennis murphy (voiceover): with

out-of-state investigators so eager to hear more, the deputy decided to backtrack and try to figure out where dean had gone after the accident. the deputy visited the garage where tim dean's wrecked car had been towed. he, again, turned his body cam on to record. cory nicolet (on recording): thanks for coming in on your day off. - you're welcome. cory nicolet (on recording): appreciate it. dennis murphy (voiceover): the garage mechanics remembered helping him unload a tote bag full of ammo. the tote, when i opened it up, it was magazines with ammo and a-- big magazines or little magazines? big ones, ar-style, like miniature rifle. dennis murphy (voiceover): also in tim's car was a long gun. that's when i saw the shotgun under the tote, grabbed the shotgun, and i saw a sport vest. i wouldn't say it was like bulletproof by any means. but it was a sport shooting vest and-- cory nicolet (on recording): with puches or something?

i don't remember if there was pouches, but it was all black. and i mean, it was probably 5, 8 pounds. like, it had some weight to it. did he come in the shop? yeah. we should have video in the shop. - do you? - we should. we got a camera right there. they had video of timothy dean showing up to pick up a tote. and i could see in the video, he walked out with a concealable ballistic vest and a 12 gauge shotgun. dennis murphy (voiceover): the garage crew wondered among themselves what this guy was doing with an arsenal in his car. i'm glad you guys are following up on this because i even told him i had weird vibes about all this. dennis murphy (voiceover): where did tim dean go next? the deputy learned he had an uber waiting and tracked down the driver at her office. she said before tim got into her car, he warned her about the goods he was carrying. you know, he warned me. he goes, it's a shotgun. is that a problem? i said, is it loaded? he said no. i said, then that's fine.

i don't-- i'm not scared of guns. dennis murphy (voiceover): she dropped him off at a local hotel. cory nicolet (on recording): and that's the last you saw him, was at motel 6. the last i saw him. cory nicolet (on recording): ok. dennis murphy (voiceover): tim dean had left the hotel and gotten out of town, but how? the deputy assumed tim rented a new car after he wrecked his first. and so he went over to the main car rental company in town, enterprise. cory nicolet (on recording): so you know who i'm talking about? i have an idea, yeah. dennis murphy (voiceover): sure enough, the rental associate on duty said tim dean had been there. he was the walk-in from texas who didn't have a credit card on him. he walked in and then i told him that he couldn't rent because he just had cash on him. and he was really upset about that, and he just left. dennis murphy (voiceover): left but for where? back home to texas or somewhere else? this was about 48 hours before josh and amber would be executed in sodus, new york. back at his station, deputy nicolet thought back on that long chit chat he'd had with tim dean. and there on that body cam video

was a back and forth that stopped him cold. dennis murphy (voiceover): new york, the scene of the crime. deputy nicolet relayed the information to the fbi. when i said that he was going to new york, everything changed at that point. tim dean admits that he is coming to new york. he is armed with more than one handgun. he's also got an ar-15 with him, a shotgun, and body armor. how does he explain all that to the deputy on the side of the road? well, i guess it's not uncommon for people to be in possession of weapons in kansas. but it becomes instrumental when he admits that he's going to new york. as far as we knew, tim dean didn't have relatives in new york. dennis murphy (voiceover): but he did, they learned, have a fresh rental picked up at the airport. and law enforcement would later have the make, model, color, and license plate of that vehicle

passing surveillance cameras on its way to upstate new york. timothy dean was a heat seeking missile on his way. coming up. tom flood: we've already got indication that this guy has done killed two people. we're not going to take a chance on him. dennis murphy (voiceover): inside the all-out blowout to capture tim dean. dennis murphy: you've got eyes on the house. you know he's home. tom flood: yes, we know he's here. they put explosives in the door. they back out. when they back out and everybody's clear, they blow the door. dennis murphy (voiceover): could they take him alive? when "dateline" continues. [music playing] did you know... 80% of women are struggling with hair damage? just like i was. pantene miracle rescue deep conditioner with melting pro-v pearls. locks in moisture to repair 6 months of damage. for resilient, healthy-looking hair. if you know, you know it's pantene.

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series. msnbc original podcasts, exclusive bonus content, and all of your favorite msnbc shows. >> now ad free. >> now ad free. >> subscribe on apple as a rule, cops don't show the families of their victims the investigative cards they're holding, no matter how badly they need to know. we were cooperating with the police, trying to get as much information from the police that we could, following the news stories the best that we could, just trying to piece things together. the police just kept saying be patient. there's things coming up. be patient. so i was patient. and i didn't want to interfere to stop them from finding who killed my son. dennis murphy (voiceover): so the families didn't know that on october 29, 2018, one week after the murders, five detectives from new york were headed to the texas panhandle. they wanted to talk with tim dean, charlene's husband. dennis murphy: you take a road trip. yes, we do. never do it again.

that's 24 solid hours of driving, and i'll never do it again. dennis murphy (voiceover): they'd come up with a plan to bring him into custody. texas decided that they still had some charges for him on the child abuse complaint. so this is really a holding action. you can put him on ice while you develop the case, huh? yes, or try to talk to him. dennis murphy (voiceover): tim dean lived in a '50s one-story house on the edge of town. the cops had surveilled the home and knew he was there. they were treating him as the suspect in a double homicide, not a child abuser, so they went in strong-- after dark, swat teams, uniforms, weapons drawn, a takedown right out of seal team six. texas investigator tom flood was there. dennis murphy: how come it's not going to be a knock, knock, knock, you know who we are, tim. we're out here. we got paperwork for you. we're going to serve you. tom flood: we've already got-- we've already got indication that this guy's done killed two people. we're not going to take a chance on him shooting anyone else. dennis murphy: you had eyes on the house. you know he's home. tom flood: yes, we know he's here. they put explosives in the door.

they back out. when they back out and everybody's clear and everybody's situated, they blow the door. dennis murphy (voiceover): this iphone footage was taken by a neighbor across the street as explosions blew out the front door. dennis murphy: what a show. it's like a commando operation. tom flood: it was straight off the military. and eventually, he does come out. and he actually comes out to about right here and raises his hands. dennis murphy (voiceover): and if he hadn't surrendered? dennis murphy: if he had made a poor decision to resist, he wasn't going to go to an interview room at that point. tom flood: no, he would have been shot. dennis murphy (voiceover): with their suspect in custody, dean, the one-time police chief, was transported to an interview room for questioning by an fbi agent and a texas ranger. dennis murphy (voiceover): but of course, the reason they brought him in had nothing to do with causing injury to a child, the charge on their arrest warrant. they wanted to talk to him about amber and josh. how's his demeanor? what's the line of the questioning? he's very quiet. he doesn't want to--

he doesn't say a whole lot. dennis murphy (voiceover): they asked him about his soon-to-be ex-wife charlene, the trouble he'd caused with her kids. well. dennis murphy (voiceover): of course, one of the theories was that tim had killed amber and josh to win his wife back. so they put that to tim directly. back? >> i know. >> there ain't no getting. >> her back, but it hasn't been. >> easy in your mind. >> is that a possibility? you thought maybe this would help get her back in your depressed state and stuff? >> yeah. >> i mean. >> it's done. it's been done. >> it's done. it's been done. there's no getting her back. i dennis murphy (voiceover): the investigators told him they knew he traveled to new york state

around the time of the murders, but why did he drive all the way there? her uncle and see. >> if i could talk. >> if i could talk. >> to dennis murphy (voiceover): maybe tim did think he could win her back, but in the end, he admitted he never did see her uncle, just drove, slept, and drank. for a while, the investigators played good cop with tim and seemed to speak to him with a sense of compassion. >> version of. >> version of. >> art and dennis murphy (voiceover): tim told them, yes, he had hit a low point and offered an explanation as to why he was driving so far from home. somewhere far

away and put in my head, so nobody that knows me would have to be the one to find me and work it. work it. dennis murphy (voiceover): the interrogators ever so gently turned the conversation back to the murders. day? >> if you think i'm going to sit here and say that i did that, you're crazy. >> i think you're crazy. if you don't. quite honestly. >> tim, it's not a question. if you did it. >> it's a question of why. and are you sorry? do you think these are five different detectives from new york? drove down here for no reason? >> no idea why the fbi is here. >> what happens when you drive >> what happens when you drive to commit a crime?

dennis murphy (voiceover): the interrogators weren't buying it and urged him to come clean. doubt about it. but there can be redemption in life, and there really can. but you're showing me right now, is it. >> a real person? >> and not only that, you're a >> and not only that, you're a go dennis murphy (voiceover): when that approach failed, investigators tried to rattle him by talking about the victims. do you hear what i'm saying? >> i hear. >> what you're saying. >> are you sorry they got killed? i'm not saying you killed them. are you. >> sorry they got killed. they got killed. >> can you say their names? >> josh? >> never say i'm sorry. josh and

amber. >> got killed. >> not that you did it. >> no, i. >> want no you didn't. >> you're saying. >> it in part. >> you can't because i'm not. you know, because. >> you can't. you realize you're talking about being in. >> service. >> and everything. i mean, that's no doubt you're saying that. but you didn't do it. you know. who's going to believe that? >> i didn't do what they said. >> i didn't do what they said. >> i dennis murphy (voiceover): fortunately, tim dean wasn't the only person they wanted to talk to. there was-- can you believe it-- another local cop on their list of persons of interest. coming up. dennis murphy (voiceover): two cops in the middle of a murder plot? dennis murphy: so he's way in the slime at this point. yeah, yeah. he was just hit with all the truth. dennis murphy (voiceover): soon, he would have a killer secret to reveal.

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dennis murphy: so bron, how do you say his last name? - bron. - bron. i'm not sure i've ever heard anyone say that out loud. bron bohlar. so he's a police officer as well. he is. dennis murphy (voiceover): 34-year-old bron bohlar had served 11 years as a texas cop. he had worked for the cactus police department, and most recently, at sunray after tim lost his job there. and he was a family man, a husband, a father, and a friend to tim dean. so how did officer bron come on to the police radar? dennis murphy (voiceover): well, it goes back to that rental car tim dean put in a ditch in kansas. it was bron's name on the rental papers, not tim's. the kansas deputy picked up on that right away. a buddy of mine. >> yeah. that's going to cause. >> you more problems than. >> anything i know. >> so he. >> rented the car for you?

>> rented the car for you? >> yeah, because. here we go. ok, have a seat right there. dennis murphy (voiceover): investigators in texas called in the sunray cop for an interview. dennis murphy (voiceover): bron didn't hesitate about the rental car. sure, he'd rented it for tim, he said. that's what friends do. after all, tim's life at that point was a mess. dennis murphy (voiceover): so did he know where tim was planning to go with it? no, answered the cop. tim's phone call about the wreck in kansas came as a surprise. because i you know, i thought he just had to go up there for a frito lay. him i was like, okay, you know, i took it at face value. and i was like, okay, hey, are you okay?

that's the main thing. he goes, yeah, i'm good with the car is pretty effed up. excuse my language. and i was like, okay, you know, we got insurance, we'll get it fixed. >> dean never mentioned. >> that he was going to. >> go on a road trip, and he was going to go to new york. he was going to go anywhere. >> he was just going to. >> use that car. that rental car >> use that car. that rental car dennis murphy (voiceover): bron agreed to take a polygraph. he failed miserably. dennis murphy (voiceover): the investigators now approached him cop-to-cop. dennis murphy (voiceover): it was fish or cut bait time. dennis murphy: so he's way in the slime at this point. yeah, he was just hit with all the truth. dennis murphy (voiceover): bron chose to cooperate and told a startling story, how

a murder plot came together. dennis murphy (voiceover): bron said the goal of tim's trip had never been suicide. he'd gone to new york, he said, to murder josh, plain and simple. dennis murphy (voiceover): and the chilling details. he said the murder had been planned at a meeting at tim's house inside his garage, that same house the swat team would later blow their way into to make the arrest on dean. dennis murphy (voiceover): a witness who could describe how two cops could come to plot a murder. and this is the garage. this is where the meetings took place. and at least one of those meetings, bron

was here while he was on duty, while he's working. so there's a marked unit sitting up front. wow, so he's in uniform. you know, i can't help thinking, todd, here we are. 1,500 miles away, there's a guy in upstate new york who is dead man walking. he has no idea what's going down in this garage in the panhandle of texas. not right now, he doesn't. he knew what did. dennis murphy: what's his motive in the fight here? what's he got going on? other than the fact that he worked here as a police officer, tim was his friend and he was going to do whatever he needed to, to help him out. including-- including rent-- --get you a rental car so you can drive all the way across the country and kill. exactly. dennis murphy (voiceover): when bron's interview ended, lieutenant flood followed him back to his house, while the authorities prepared an arrest warrant. he got home. we arrest him. you're career law enforcement, tom. does it embarrass you that we're talking about two guys who were sworn officers here? it's embarrassing to think that they felt like they could do this and get away with it. it's a shame that it went to this point. they knew there's other options, but they want to take the way that's

going to get somebody killed. i mean, that's just not it. they know better. dennis murphy (voiceover): and that put the majority of sunray's three-man force, past and present, under arrest. but the investigation was far from over. someone else they'd eyed all along was still in their crosshairs. they were back to where they'd started, with a certain embittered young woman from texas. coming up. >> here's what's going on. >> here's what's going on. >> josh is dead. dennis murphy (voiceover): josh's ex, charlene. you need to look at charlene. did you say, oh, no that can't be done? i said, oh, no, i pray it's not. dennis murphy (voiceover): what story would she tell? dennis murphy (voiceover): when "dateline" continues.

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>> in stores. just text mind to. >> 215215 now. i'm richard lui with the news update. president trump downplaying a clash between elon musk and his cabinet secretaries in a closed door meeting. >> this. >> week, secretary of state marco rubio and transportation secretary sean duffy reportedly pushing back on musk for firing personnel without fully considering its impact. and the federal aviation administration is temporarily grounding spacex's starship while it conducts an investigation into thursday's explosion over the skies of miami. debris from the rocket disrupted. >> 240 flights. >> it was. >> the. >> second starship explosion. >> this year. >> this year. >> for now, back to dateline. dennis murphy (voiceover): that accident in kansas proved the undoing of tim dean, found with a car full of guns and ammo on his way to new york state, the very place where

the murders would occur. dennis murphy (voiceover): but here's a question about the theory of the crime. was tim a desperate depressed man on a mission to win back his wife, a lone wolf, or was his wife in on it? all along, detectives had considered the possibility that charlene not only knew about the plan to murder josh, but maybe had talked him into doing it as payback for his blunder in losing the kids. dennis murphy: so you owe me, tim dean. yes. dennis murphy: you owe me a big one here. yes. dennis murphy (voiceover): it was a theory that came to resonate for some of josh and amber's loved ones. he had a couple friends that, you know, they were like, you need to look at charlene. did you say, oh, no, that can't be done? i didn't say, oh, no, it couldn't be. i said, oh, no, i pray it's not. dennis murphy (voiceover): in fact, josh's sister nicole had given police an earful about charlene early on. the cops came into my house and told me what happened and asked me if my brother had enemies. i said no, my brother does not have enemies,

but he's got a charlene. nicole right away says it's her. her and josh's best friend, keith. they both said, i don't think she should be here. i think it might have been her. and i was like, that's crazy. dennis murphy (voiceover): by the time of the funerals, even amber's sister, who'd never met charlene, thought she might be involved. i saw her for the first time in my life at the funeral. and i just got cold chills. and i remember you speaking at the funeral, giving my sister's eulogy, seeking her out in the crowd, just to make eye contact with her when i was talking about how good of a mother my sister was to her children. and you had suspicions already at that point? at that point, yes. dennis murphy (voiceover): and beyond her badmouthing of josh, depicting him as a violent bad guy, there was this in the case against charlene, and it was a big factor. in an early phone call, she claims she learned of josh's death on facebook, that she'd seen a picture of the house and the street address. but that, in fact, didn't happen. the street was made public, but not the house or number.

that was a lie because that was not a photograph of josh's house. she couldn't have. she couldn't have seen it. dennis murphy (voiceover): so how did she know, unless she was part of the plot? eight days after the murders, detectives picked up charlene at her boyfriend casey's house. and we knocked on the door and asked charlene to come with us. she didn't seem fazed by the whole thing. she didn't seem shocked. she didn't say, i've got a lawyer? - not at all. - we're done here? no. so she came down. yes, she did. she willingly talked to us for quite a while. dennis murphy (voiceover): conversation was cordial as they walked through her backstory. charlene told them how surprised she'd been when she found out her ex-boyfriend was dead. she said, charlene. here's what's going on. >> josh is dead. >> i hit the floor. >> really? >> what the. >> hell is. >> hell is. dennis murphy (voiceover): could tim have been

the shooter, they asked her. did he harbor ill will to josh? what do you mean? >> josh used to beat the hell. >> out of me. >> oh, really? >> that's. >> but you know, you know. tim had never. >> really spoke too bad about him. you know, it. >> was more. >> of. >> you. >> know. >> if i. could ever get. >> into a fight. >> with. >> him, i'd fight him. >> do you think tim's. >> capable of. >> shooting somebody? >> i can't see it. yeah, like. >> i can't see it. yeah, like. >> unless it was, like, dennis murphy (voiceover): charlene denied knowledge of tim's murderous plans, but detectives had learned something else about her. and it went back to that rental car he ended up crashing. charlene had driven bron to pick it up at the start of the road trip.

dennis murphy (voiceover): she said she was simply doing a friend a favor. never asked him what or who it was for. dennis murphy (voiceover): but there was so much more to the saga of the wrecked rental car. remember how tim had trouble renting a replacement because he only had cash. he was really upset about that. and he just left. dennis murphy (voiceover): detectives now learned it was charlene herself who'd driven almost 500 miles, credit card in hand, to get tim dean back on the road. took him to. >> the. >> rental car and tell you where he was going and what he's doing. no. >> i don't ask questions, i

>> i don't ask questions, i don't dennis murphy (voiceover): the more she talked, the more radioactive she became as a suspect. long? >> how long is that? >> well, five hours for me. >> holy cow. >> you have to help me build up my. he filled up my gas tank so i didn't care. >> but you're going to fill up. >> yeah. so you're like last resort. i was like, ask. >> anybody else that. >> you can because i don't feel like coming up there afterwards. >> i don't. >> feel like it was. >> for you. i don't. >> you know. yeah. >> you know. yeah. >> but dennis murphy (voiceover): but charlene didn't seem like someone who'd do a big favor for the man who'd essentially ruined her life by costing her custody of her kids. they cut to the chase. i seen a woman in her 20s who is actually

trying to convince a police officer, an experienced police officer, much like a teenager would, that her story is real. and watching her interview, it's just not believable. dennis murphy (voiceover): they were about to turn up the heat. dennis murphy (voiceover): coming up. i had just lost my kids. and i said, you know what? i can't deal with this. i can't deal with the depression and the sadness anymore. i need my kids. my kids are my life. and he looked at me, and he was like, what do we do? dennis murphy (voiceover): a desperate mom. how deep did this plot go? i didn't think it was going to happen. i blame myself for everything. dennis murphy (voiceover): when "dateline" continues. [music playing] -we're done. -what about these? looks right. nooo... nooo... quick, the quicker picker upper!

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>> of tiktok in the us. >> president trump has promised to. >> carry out the largest. >> deportation force in american history. >> reporting from. >> philadelphia. >> el paso. >> and the palisades. >> virginia, from. >> virginia, from. >> msnbc world headquarters. charlene had done her best to bat it all away, those investigative details that seemed to tie her to josh and amber's murders. dennis murphy (voiceover): but the detectives grilled her deep into the night. it was 1:30 in the morning. i had had about two hours of sleep in two days. and all i could think about was getting home to my children. did you ever get back to them? no. that was it, wasn't it? yes. dennis murphy (voiceover): never saw them again because charlene started to spill. watch and listen now as she gives it up. the story she told us is much the same as the story she would eventually tell the authorities,

how she became a killer. i blame myself for everything. dennis murphy (voiceover): charlene says it started after that august court hearing in new york state where she lost custody of her kids. she and tim were on the long drive back to texas when she came undone. i had just lost my kids, at least for the school year. and i said, you know what? i can't deal with this. i can't deal with the depression and the sadness anymore. i need my kids. my kids are my life. and he looked at me and he was like, what do we do? dennis murphy (voiceover): charlene had the answer. i was like, he's got to go. he's got to go. so you say to tim, we've got to do something. and what does he say back to you? ok. ok? i will kill him. is that what you understood him to say? he said ok. did you realize you'd crossed a line there? not at the time because it was just talk. this was the moment you became the architect of a murder.

yeah, but at the time, i didn't think it was going to happen. dennis murphy (voiceover): maybe not right then and there, but after visiting her children in new york two months later, the wheels in her head were still turning. my son is bawling his eyes out to me, saying, how he hates it up here. he wants to come home with me. he wants me to steal him away. that hit me because anybody that knows my son knows he doesn't-- he doesn't just bawl his eyes out like that. did this put you back in that place where you had that conversation back when? yes. dennis murphy (voiceover): she says when she returned home to texas, she told her husband, tim, it was showtime. i'm telling him that, you know, now it needs to be done. and what needs to be done is josh needs to be killed. yes. and tim is going to be the agent of bringing that off? - yes. - he's going to be the killer. yes. that missile is often going at this point, isn't it? yes. dennis murphy: you've lit the fuse.

so they planned it in that garage. yes, charlene was there, too. she, tim, and his friend, bron bohler, working out the logistics of the murder plot. bron agreed to rent the car, tim would drive it to new york. what was his understanding of what was going on and what he-- you were asking him to do? to go up to new york to handle business. so he says, yeah, ok, i'm good for that, huh? what's the understanding between you and tim about what is afoot at this point? he was going to drive up, kill josh, and come back. charlene, that makes you a murderer. do you realize that? you have commissioned this. the gun is in your hand every bit as much as it is is when you say, go do this thing. we're in it together. do you get that? yes, i do. so what are your words to tim when he heads out?

that i love him. dennis murphy (voiceover): she still loved him. their broken marriage wasn't so broken. the divorce talk was just part of a plan to win the children back. and so her husband, former chief of police of sunray, texas, began the journey north with his bag full of guns. then came the hiccup, that car accident in kansas. calls me at 4:00 am. says, i wrecked the rental car. and what are you supposed to do? get him a fresh set of wheels? i tried. you guys both know how law enforcement works. mm-hmm. you're on the record. this would be an excellent time to call this thing off, right? mm-hmm. maybe a sign this wasn't meant to be. we tried to go to new york and ended up in a ditch in kansas. but you go up there. what do you do? i picked him up from the motel and i drove him to an airport. so he could rent a vehicle.

dennis murphy: on you go, part two. the plan is on. do you give him encouragement? not really encouragement, but i gave him the debit card and credit cards if he needs them. and-- here's your new ride. go to new york and kill the father of my children. mm-hmm. dennis murphy (voiceover): for charlene, there was no turning back. she drove back home to texas and waited. dennis murphy: how do you find out? i got home from work on monday, the 22nd of october. and i saw the news articles of shootings in sodus. dennis murphy (voiceover): so according to her own words, charlene talked her husband into murder, a skillful manipulation. now that she'd been caught, would she try to manipulate the system as well? coming up. she is a master manipulator. it made me sick to my stomach. taking us for a bunch of patsies. dennis murphy (voiceover): could charlene strike one more deal?

dennis murphy: do you realize how much misery you've caused, charlene, to so many human beings? - yes. dennis murphy: how many families are destroyed because you wanted to have what you wanted to have? do you have any remorse for that? tons. i got to say, it doesn't really show. i don't know how remorse is supposed to look, but i don't think i've seen it. dennis murphy (voiceover): when "dateline" continues. [music playing] ♪ rinse it out ♪ ♪ every now and then ♪ ♪ i get a little bit tired of the stinks ♪ ♪ that just will never come out ♪ ♪ pour downy in the rinse, jade ♪ ♪ every now and then i rinse it out! ♪ fights odor in just one wash. my mental health was better. but uncontrollable movements called td,tardive dyskinesia, started disrupting my day. td felt embarrassing. i felt like disconnecting. i asked my doctor about treating my td, and learned about ingrezza. ♪ ingrezza ♪ ingrezza is clinically proven to treat td, quickly reducing td by greater than five times at two weeks.

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on november 5, 2018, two weeks after josh and amber were gunned down in their driveway, charlene childers and her husband tim dean were charged in their murders. josh and amber's parents weren't exactly surprised by the news, but that didn't make it any easier to take. it made me sick to my stomach, thinking that she sat with us the whole week with the grieving family. taking us for a bunch of patsies. yeah, going to josh and amber's vigil, going to their funeral services. saying all the right things that people say in those situations. right, and then to find out she was the one to participate in killing him made me sick. it's like, who could even do that? it's almost like compounding the awfulness of the crime itself. - yes. she hugs me and tells me she is so sorry for everything. and knowing what you know now. yeah, i can't wash that off of me. dennis murphy (voiceover): not to mention the show that she put on at the vigil.

whoever did it has now made it to where my kids grow up [inaudible]. and that's nothing a kid should ever have to do. and she said, i hope there's justice. i hope justice is served. what do you think about that conduct? i think she's a narcissist. i think she made herself believe she had nothing to do with it to have a straight face during the whole thing, like she was part of us, and she was not. dennis murphy (voiceover): that's really monstrous behavior. i mean, there's the crime in itself of setting it all in motion, which you do, but then this other thing of coming right into these people's homes and to say, i'm so sorry for your loss, and you're responsible for the loss, this horrible thing, how could you do that? it was hard. dennis murphy (voiceover): the families were also disgusted by tim dean. how could a police chief suddenly become a stone cold killer? he didn't even know my son. and to come up here, drive thousands of miles,

and shoot him? for what? dennis murphy (voiceover): assistant district attorney christine callanan says, not for what, but for whom? you describe her as a master manipulator, special manipulative skills when it came to men. absolutely, she always utilized men in her life. she utilized tim to kill josh. i mean, she was in two active relationships throughout the case. she was still writing letters to timothy dean, professing that he was the love of her life. but then also casey miller visited her 60 times at the jail. dennis murphy (voiceover): charlene and tim were potentially facing life in prison as their trials approached. the da wondered if they would turn on one another at trial. her statements to police end up being admissible. and at that point, her attorney reaches out and wants to talk about her coming to the table and cooperating. dennis murphy (voiceover): but could she be trusted? i didn't think she would be able to tell the truth.

she is a master manipulator, so i came into that proffer, thinking that it wasn't going to work out, that she would do the one thing that she's always done throughout the case and is protect herself and do what's best for her. dennis murphy (voiceover): so the da was skeptical as they cut charlene a deal-- pleading guilty to manslaughter in exchange for telling the truth, and nothing but the truth, to a jury. dennis murphy: so she's a wild card going into trial. christine callanan: absolutely. at this point, i don't know if she's going to stick to the agreement and come through and testify, and actually sit on a stand in public and admit to what she had done. dennis murphy (voiceover): even without charlene, the case against tim dean was strong. his dna was found in that ski mask the police dog sniffed out a block from the murders. and though police never did track down the gun, they think it came from-- where else-- the department where tim used to work. what is believed is that it was taken from the sunray police department. property room? yes.

dennis murphy (voiceover): when she took the stand, charlene did lay it all out for the jury, how she dispatched her husband on a mission to kill josh. and it played out more or less as she'd hoped, except for one important detail. she says she never wanted amber to die. she was not supposed to be involved at all. it would have been ok if josh is dead because that was the plan. it was the plan, yes. ok? no. i mean, it still was a shock that it actually happened. yes, it was planned to happen. it was planned by you. yes. you liked this girl. i did. you thought she was a good surrogate mom for your kids. and there she is with a gun right up against the back of her ear, blew her brains out. your guy on your orders. no. those were not my orders. she was never in the plans, ever. dennis murphy (voiceover): at trial,

charlene's credibility was an easy target for tim's defense attorney. she's a walking, talking contradiction of herself. she-- i don't know if she's capable of telling the truth. woman: will the defendant please stand? dennis murphy (voiceover): but in the end, her story was too evil, too cold to dismiss. it took the jury just 4 hours to convict timothy dean of double murder. man: we, the jury, find the defendant guilty. we all knew what it was going to be, but still, we were all just so relieved to hear that first strong guilty verdict. dennis murphy (voiceover): tim was sentenced to life in prison. bron bohlar got one to three years for second degree conspiracy. and charlene is serving 28 years. wayne county district attorney mike calarco. in the final analysis, tim dean is the one

who pulled the trigger. we felt the proffer and resolution as to charlene was appropriate under the circumstances. dennis murphy (voiceover): 28 years is plenty of time for charlene if she chooses to think about all the carnage she unleashed. dennis murphy: do you realize how much misery you've caused, charlene, to so many human beings in the course of this? - yes. dennis murphy: how many families are destroyed because you wanted to have what you wanted to have? do you have any remorse for that? tons. i got to say, it doesn't really show. i don't know how remorse is supposed to look, but i don't think i've seen it. you seem to be ok with what's happened. on the outside, maybe. what happened to you? i made bad choices. and i regret them every single day. dennis murphy (voiceover): near the end of our interview, charlene stepped away and spoke to her attorney. i need a break.

dennis murphy (voiceover): she returned to her chair more emotional this time. dennis murphy: what do you tell people who's pretty quickly to call you a monster, just flat out evil? i'm a human being. i make mistakes. this was ultimately the biggest mistake i've ever done. i'm sorry more than i can express. every day, it runs through me. in your predicament now, that's not going to get you so much as an extra baloney sandwich. i know what i did was wrong. and i know sorries are not good enough, and it will never be good enough. dennis murphy (voiceover): both amber and josh's families are trying to put this all behind them now, if not for their own sakes, for the children involved. well, they are the light of all of our lives. dennis murphy (voiceover): josh's sister, nicole, gained custody of josh and charlene's two kids. dennis murphy: they're your babies now. they're my babies. they're my piece of josh.

i wouldn't know what to do without them. dennis murphy (voiceover): and amber's parents made a home for that little boy who witnessed it all, the boy in the backseat, josh, jr. this little guy has been our godson. without him, i don't know how we would have made it through. josh is literally the glue that holds this family together right now. how are you keeping amber's memory alive for josh, jr.? oh, we've got pictures all over the house. now, every night, before he goes to bed, and every morning, we all say, good night to him. grandma and grandpa love you. mom and dad love you more. [music playing] . i'm craig melvin. and i'm natalie morales. and this is "dateline." . it was all dark, and everything was just spinning away from me into, like, blackness.

it was terrifying.