don't worry, she can't. >> fire you, which is the worst thing. >> you can. >> do to a ceo. >> and six. >> months later, he had to go back in the room and change. >> that. because, you know, i'm a i'm a consensus builder. >> and i want. everyone to work. >> together and. >> you know. >> enjoy building debt and building. >> the. >> brand and. >> creating high quality programing. but so many. of the male executives didn't want to be part of my legacy. >> so it took me six years. >> to get my own. >> team and. >> that's it for us this saturday. we're back tomorrow at. >> 6 a.m. eastern. >> for more of the big conversations. >> from the. >> past week, thank you so much for watching. enjoy the rest of your saturday. >> good morning. >> it is. >> saturday, march 8th. i'm alicia menendez with symone sanders townsend and michael

steele. today trump's tariff whiplash, his chaotic moves, angering our allies abroad and hurting our bottom lines here at home. plus, democrats go on offense over elon musk's doge cuts, holding town halls in red districts where republicans are too scared to meet their own constituents. and new signs trump is weaponizing the justice department. federal prosecutors placed on leave, thrown out of their offices just for doing their jobs. andrew weissmann is here, so grab your coffee. settle in. welcome to the weekend. well. >> donald trump's will he or won't he? tariff tactics are a guessing game that are. that's hurting our allies and american businesses, even if economy even economists. i mean, like people. everyone's confused. literally. on friday, donald trump said that he may slap canada with

tariffs on dairy and lumber, but he hasn't decided yet. and that was after trump paused tariffs for a month on a wide range of products from canada and mexico. the whiplash is causing more uncertainty for business owners and americans just trying to make ends meet. and new this morning, china is now hitting canada with its own round of tariffs. a sign that trump's trade wars could have far reaching effects. the new york times reports, quote, the chinese tariffs are a clear warning to canada and indirectly, mexico, not to cooperate with the united states on trade. well, joining us now to discuss it all is former florida congressman david jolly and special correspondent for vanity fair, molly jong-fast. both are msnbc political analyst. >> good morning. >> to you both. it's very confusing. >> it's very confusing. >> absolutely. >> david, i want to sort of unpack a little bit of the confusion, though, because i always thought the art of negotiation was, you get in a room, you lay everything on the table, you work out the terms,

and then you make an announcement and you stick to it because you figured it out. you don't go today, i'm. >> going to do. >> x tomorrow. oh we about x. we're not doing that. so you have this. >> at the core of this though is. >> the us-mexico-canada. >> trade agreement. >> which donald. >> trump, by the way, negotiated. >> during his first term. it is a very complex. >> process with respect to trade. you're now throwing in another level. >> of tariffs. >> on top of that, it creates. >> the kind. >> of tensions that we're now seeing. >> play out. >> and given the fact that the administration doesn't seem to have a clue really what it wants to do. i want you to. >> listen. >> to peter navarro, trump's. >> economic trade adviser. >> sort of saying. >> oh, no. >> there's no confusion here. we know exactly what we're doing. let's take a listen. >> i reject the. >> idea that there's uncertainty. the uncertainty is created. >> by the fact that people. >> don't take president trump at his word. now, with respect to

the. >> negotiations that we're having. >> now with. >> canada and. >> mexico, the way the media portrays. >> it is. >> oh, the president put tariffs on and he takes them off, and we're not certain what's happening. if you just simply parse what's going. on david. it's a negotiation and we're winning. >> okay i'll just leave that. you just go ahead and make a comment on that because it's peter. >> yeah. peter navarro. >> is lying. the uncertainty is because people are taking. >> donald trump. >> at his word. exactly. >> his counterparts. >> our allies. >> in all of. these trade. >> conversations and negotiations. look, big picture here. >> i think we've. reached the person. woman, man, camera. tv portion, cognitive portion of the first 50 days. donald trump has. >> no idea. >> what he's doing right now. >> i mean, i. >> think that is absolutely clear. as a matter of trade policy, if you are trying to pivot the. >> domestic economy. >> in a certain direction, which we last saw in a major way. >> in the 90s, moving from manufacturing. >> to service, you do that slowly, deliberately. you do.

>> it as an ally. >> of domestic manufacturing and industry and the financial community. >> you do. >> it in partnership, frankly, with our allies. that's not this. and to your point about how do you. negotiate a deal? first thing you do is you stick to your original position. donald trump keeps backing. >> it up, and he can't even articulate why. >> we're doing this. >> this is not. about generating. >> a new. domestic economy. if so. >> that takes. >> a much more sober approach. it's also not about drugs, because donald trump's the guy that pardoned the. kingpin of silk road, the largest operator of drug trafficking in the world. he pardoned him. >> so this is not. >> about donald trump's. >> conviction about drugs. i think. >> this. >> is. >> an unstable, irascible, angry president who. >> doesn't understand economic theory, is not following the. advice of his cabinet. >> and. economists across the world, but. >> he just likes to pick a fight. >> this is a. >> dangerous time. >> and you. >> know, the word uncertainty and stability is ultimately what could ruin this entire economy. because what markets need is certainty, either certainty going in one direction or the

other. what they can't. handle is the whiplash because you can't plan. >> around it. >> donald trump has this economy. teetering on stagflation. watch out if we move in that direction because his numbers are already. >> soft will plummet. >> i would. >> argue. >> molly, i agree. >> with david. >> jolly that. >> this is not. >> about good economic policy. this is not. >> about what's in the best interest. >> of. >> the american people. >> yes. >> donald trump. >> likes to pick. >> a fight. >> i also think this is about building an imperial presidency. >> this from. >> axios about how. >> trump 2.0 is different than 1.0. the 2018 to 2019 tariffs were implemented. >> by invoking. sections 232. >> and 301. >> of the trade statutes. the former giving. >> the president authority to. >> impose duties on national security. grounds and. >> the latter to combat. >> unfair trade practices. >> those laws demand a process of studies. >> and appeals which slow their implementation while preventing. >> unintended consequences. >> by contrast. this week's new round of tariffs. invoked the international emergency. >> economic powers.

>> act, which. >> gives the president. broad powers. with few checks. >> to deal with, quote. any unusual and extraordinary threat. that. >> to me, is. >> the through line between so much of what. >> they are doing. >> right now. i mean. >> look, this is. >> the larger problem with this administration. they are doing project 2025 and how. >> they're doing it. >> is slightly different than we thought. >> that how. >> it would be. right. they're doing it. >> through doge, but they're. >> cutting the national. >> weather service and they're dismantling. >> the guardrails. >> and this is not surprising. and in fact. >> it's funny because you see tom cole, right, from oklahoma. chair of house appropriations. >> very. >> important. >> you know, committee saying. thank you, elon, for saving. these little. >> bits of government. >> right. >> this is congress's job. >> they have given up. >> their power. we are. >> watching it in real time. >> so i agree. >> this is the imperial presidency. >> in action. >> and it is. and, you know, again, we have our allies terrified, right? we have.

>> canada embracing. canadian nationalism. like, who. >> even saw that as. >> an option? >> i mean, to put a finer point on it, mollie is right. canadian nationalism for canadians. they are they are removing california wines from store shelves. according to some nbc news and reporting, they are pushing buy canadian to counter higher costs. they are uncharacteristically brandishing unvarnished anger over what they see as a betrayal of a longtime friend. the canadians are saying they ain't coming to visit america. they're canceling trips. they are off and rightfully so. you know, look, david jolly, there was this article in the new york times, i believe, over maybe two days ago, and it talked about how donald trump's 51st state language as it relates to canada, is actually quite serious, and the canadians are taking it very seriously, and it is further angering them. and i think that what we are seeing is

the president of the united states looking to bring canada to its to its knees economically. and they are this is this is economic warfare, if you will, and the canadians are are currently grappling with what that means for them. i mean, there's an election that is going to be held sometime this year. and the issue of how to deal with america is going to be front and center for canadians. you juxtapose that with, you know, republicans here in america who are speaking out against the president, saying tariffs are not good. we don't want these tariffs. we have to be careful what we how we do this. the bourbon from kentucky, the bourbon distilleries are very upset and rand paul is speaking out about it. this is this is serious business. right david. >> i agree with all that. i worry there's. something much more insidious here. and i think it's donald. >> trump's vision. >> of a, a global. global realignment. >> of the world order. and what. >> i. >> mean by that is. >> from national. security measures to economic measures.

>> donald trump. >> has been attacking our allies. since he got in. >> and if. >> you were trying to take down the country from within. >> there are three. >> things you would do. you would disrupt our strategic. >> alliances around the world, those of national security. and economic security. you would disrupt. >> the ability. >> of the federal. >> government to deliver services. >> to. >> the people. >> that is doge. and excuse me, you. >> would do economic. >> security, you would do doge. and then. >> i forget. >> the last. >> one, let's. say violate the constitution. >> i'm sorry. but the point here on the insidious piece. >> is disrupting the world. >> order and creating a new alignment. >> the attacks we are. seeing on. >> on nato and our european allies as it relates to ukraine. the comfort. that he gets. >> from. vladimir putin. >> the economic. disruption with our allies, canada and mexico, name them. all of this leads in 2 or 3 years. >> to. donald trump saying that the west has turned against us and that. >> our allies. >> might be russia and china. i really think. that's the insidious piece about this. he's declared war on. >> our allies. >> he's done it through. >> economic means. he's done.

>> it in. >> the national security posture. and that creates a new world order that i think. >> donald trump is. >> is flirting. with and creates a very, very. >> dangerous global environment. >> so, molly. what david. >> raises is, is an absolute correct point in terms of the strategic effort by the trump administration to reorder things. >> so that. >> raises up a counter question. so how. >> how do we respond to that? >> and who are those who are prepared. to lay out some level of, of action or resistance. >> to that? >> on the economic front, i found. >> it interesting in. >> a column by congressman. >> deluzio who pushed back on this idea that, you know, neoliberal economists who think tariffs are always. >> bad, he noted. >> rather than reflexively. condemning all tariffs, democrats should be highlighting how trump's scattershot threats unanchored to any real industrial strategy will not deliver on the goals of rebuilding american manufacturing, raising wages or rebalancing trade. for one thing. >> tariffs are effectively.

>> effective only when used in a predictable and stable. >> way. >> and the trump administration won't approach approach has been anything but. >> when i read. >> that, i. >> sort of get this. >> sort of. conflicting perspective. >> you tell me that, you know. >> reflexive, reflexive condemnation of all tariffs is. >> bad. >> but then go on to tell me why condemnations of all tariffs should take place. so help me out here. what how do democrats thread this needle narratively, to help americans contextualize what's happening to them? >> so here's. >> what i would say. >> i think that. >> what has happened is. >> look. >> there's another. >> piece to. >> this, which is. >> there is. >> not the same strong mainstream nonpartizan media there was in 2016. it is much, much, much smaller. so it has fallen on a. >> lot of these democrats, democratic. >> senators, to narrate what's happening. right. like to explain what they've. seen in the. >> last seven weeks.

>> and i've seen some. democrats do that. and i think what's been smart is where you've. >> seen places like. bernie sanders. >> go in and. give town halls where republicans won't, or you've seen. >> chris murphy. >> narrate. >> you know, he did a speech on the floor of the senate where he. >> talked about what had happened in the. >> last six weeks, that. >> kind of stuff. >> you know, there. >> are some really. >> popular things that republicans are trying to take away, right? >> like in that top line reconciliation bill. >> it had. $880 billion for medicaid over ten years. >> that will mean closing rural hospitals. that will mean closing. >> nursing homes. >> those kind of things are popular, right? it's unpopular stuff. and they. >> have to just continually. >> sort of. >> narrate what's. >> happening for voters. >> because if they. >> don't do it, no one. >> else will. >> right, right. >> and they got to get out of that. these are good tariffs. these are bad tariffs okay. but right now we're dealing with a man that don't know the difference right. that's the point.

>> that's the point. >> that's the point. >> he's clueless on the tariffs david molly stick around with us. we want to talk to talk about donald trump's threats. to shut down the department of education. they still want to do that. and later we'll talk to the. ranking member of the budget committee, congressman brendan boyle, our buddy, about the deep. >> cuts. >> republicans are proposing. you're watching the weekend on you're watching the weekend on msnbc. ♪♪ dry, brittle hair... needs some intensive care. new pantene damage repair collection is infused with pro-vitamins, and a regenerative blend with argan and jojoba oils, to replenish lost nutrients... and repair weak inner hair bonds. ♪♪ for stronger, healthier hair... ♪♪ without the $90 price tag. ♪♪ it's intensive care for your hair. ♪♪ pantene.

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your entire first order. >> at fabletics. >> com as a new vip member. >> there is so much to talk about tonight. there is so much

to cover. we also see voters imploring democrats and you specifically to fight harder. what can you tell voters tonight who say you could be doing more than you're doing? can you tell us what's going on in the senate right now? do you know what the d.o.j. group was trying to access at social security that would have caused the administrator to resign? right now, in our time today. the unpopularity of what they're doing really does create real political pressure at the source to stop it, to at least slow him down. >> if donald. >> trump has his way, federal involvement in. >> our education system. >> will soon. >> be a thing of. >> the past. >> trump has promised to. >> eliminate the department of education. and sources tell nbc news the white house has prepared an executive order to do just that. last week, education secretary. >> linda mcmahon wrote. >> a letter to the department. >> describing her. >> momentous final mission to eliminate what she calls bureaucratic bloat. but here's the catch, folks. >> the president.

>> needs the. >> approval of. >> congress to actually abolish a federal agency. you can't do it by executive order. david jolly and molly jong-fast, they're back with us. david jolly, that's. >> exactly where i was going to go. what do. >> republicans and. >> congress do here? >> i would be surprised. >> if they shut. >> down the department of education, in. >> part because everything. >> donald trump. is announcing reflects. >> just a. >> huge dose. >> of ignorance by. >> himself in the white house. what do i. mean by that? we all know that most schools. >> are funded at the. >> local level. >> the import of the department of education really impacts the communities with most need. >> those who. >> are underfunded. >> those school districts who are underfunded. >> who lack equity compared. >> to other schools or programs that support individuals with. >> disabilities and other special needs environments. >> and so what are you really. >> trying to shut down here? and i think where it's in in tension as well, is this proposal that somehow they're going to have federal vouchers and create. >> some federal school choice program. well, choose your direction. >> because there aren't.

sufficient resources at the federal. >> level for. >> federal vouchers. >> i think what all of. >> this. >> reflects. >> you all know this very well. this is a continuance of the republican war on public education. school choice is not really choice. >> if you. >> have well-funded. private schools and underfunded. >> public schools. >> that's not. >> a choice. >> what parents across the country want? they want empowerment. when republicans speak a really important language here is parents want to be empowered. but where the republican argument falls. apart is they want to be empowered to have a. >> public school. >> in their community that looks and feels like their community, with incredible academic rigor and opportunities and trades and scholarship. they don't want just a failing public school and then a well-funded. >> private school that where all. >> the public money goes to. i think donald trump has this all wrong. and what i would say to congressional republicans is go. for it. test the american people on this. follow your president and see where that. >> leads you. >> you know, molly, it is it's it doesn't seem like smart politics to me even though for years, decades even i mean, since carter, since president

carter established the department of education, republicans have been talking about getting rid of it. but no republican president has actually taken the steps to do so. you've got the education secretary. this is what she had to say about pell grants yesterday on news nation. take a listen. >> pell grants student loans might best be served in another department, and we're looking as to where that could best be handled. this is not a turn off the lights and walk out of the department. it's with close consultation with congress and looking at how the needs of students can best be serviced. >> another department. molly. i'm unsure about where they're going. this close consultation with congress and a draft of the house budget committee memo. and i think politico obtained this had specific cuts and the cuts included to pell grants. it included limits on direct student loans, the elimination of parent plus loans and graduate plus loans. this is

something that goes directly at the heart of sometimes changes that happen within the department of education affect people who have already gone through their higher education. right. we're talking about the loans that you already took out and how you pay them back. this affects the students that have yet to even go. or maybe they're right now. plus, loans have helped a lot of people. pell grants have helped a lot of people as a pell grant recipient. how is this popular? >> i don't. >> think it is popular. right. and remember. >> project 2025, which chronicled all of this stuff was wildly. >> unpopular. >> which is why donald trump said he wasn't going to do it. >> but now. >> shockingly, he's actually doing it. who could have seen this coming? but look, pell grants serve, you know, people who can't. pay for college, right? it's wildly successful. we get. >> kids to college. we. >> you know, educate a workforce that we desperately need. right. and they're being and it's being targeted. >> and i think. >> it's important to remember the all of these programs are

being targeted so. >> that. >> very, very. wealthy people can keep. >> their tax cut. >> this is not. >> you know, this is not an emergency, right. >> this is because we're trying to pay for. >> a tax. cut for the very, very. very wealthy. >> and, you know. >> i think that it's it should not be none. >> of. >> this should come as a surprise because it really was documented. >> and it. >> is this idea that democrats. >> you know, that. >> the department. >> of education needs to end, because somehow public education and remember, it's title ten, it's title one, it's all of these very fulsome programs that support schools in. >> red states. >> i think just one last point on that. to david's point, you're not creating a level playing field for kids if you rebalance it so that public education is disproportionately disadvantaged across the country as you try to level up choice, because that's not really offering a choice for those kids. >> it's not a choice. molly

mentioned it a couple of times. michael mentioned it. can we just put the full screen up of the core principles about education? yes. it was in the mandate for leadership. the conservative promise project 2025. somebody tried to tell y'all, former congressman david jolly, molly jong-fast, thank you both. next, folks, republicans are moving to push members of congress who disrupted trump's speech this week to push them, punish them, really? and even some democrats have went along for the ride. we're going to talk about it. we're going to talk about it. you're watching the weekend. ♪ rinse it out ♪ ♪ every now and then ♪ ♪ i get a little bit tired of the stinks ♪ ♪ that just will never come out ♪ ♪ pour downy in the rinse, jade ♪ ♪ every now and then i rinse it out! ♪ fights odor in just one wash. -honey... -but the gains are pumping! ♪ every now dad, is mommy a "finance bro?" she switched careers to make money for your weddings. oooh the asian market is blowing up! hey who wants shots, huh?!

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>> it's. >> a buffet of all you can eat. butterfly shrimp. and sirloin steak. >> yeah. >> that is the. >> that is the. >> reason i travel can make you smell kinda funky. but aluminum-free secret whole body deodorant gives me 72 hour whole body freshness. for long layovers. surprise gate changes. and heavy luggage. and it's totally middle-seat approved. secret. no sweat. democratic leaders reportedly not happy with house members who disrupted trump's address to congress this week. >> axios reporting. >> leadership is. >> privately confronting those who went beyond. >> traditional protest tactics, like. >> alpha coordination and. >> a refusal to clap. during trump's speech to congress, some

democrats wore pink to resist. others held up signs calling out trump's lies. >> and his bromance. >> with elon musk. and congressman al green got. >> kicked out of the chamber for heckling trump. >> republicans punished green. >> for. standing up to trump's lies. >> ten democrats voted. >> with. >> all house republicans to censure congressman green. >> for his act of protest. >> that image is going to. >> be. iconic friends. >> yeah. very iconic. okay. i know the people are like, don't beat up on the democrats. and i'm like, look, i'm an equal opportunity employer. amanda litman, who co-founded the group run for something, she had the best tweet about this entire like situation. she said, and i'm paraphrasing, but the democrats need to remember that they their job is to not not necessarily be the thermometer, but be the thermostat. and i was like, what does this mean? but basically because that's i'm with y'all. i was like, i don't

know. but it's very profound. what she's saying is it's not their job to set the temperature right. it is their actually they need to be the, the thermometer. yeah. not the thermostat. >> they need to read. >> they need they need to read the temperature. read the temperature of the room. so the thermometer tells you, oh this is what the temperature is. the thermostat. you can turn it up or turn it down. i think the democratic party leadership, the democratic house, democratic leadership, i'm being very specific here they are. they have been very good at holding the line on the legislation. nothing from project 2025 has made it past their desk. right? none of this legislation have democrats have voted for it. they've held the line on that. but they have to understand where the temperature of their base is. and tom suozzi, who was one of the democrats, there were ten democrats that voted with the republicans to censure tom suozzi, one of those democrats. he had a tele town hall afterwards, and he heard from his constituents on the tele. yes. put them up. yes, honey, look. look hard, y'all. these are the people. and i think that except jim himes will take it off because jim, one of those people is not jim himes on this

photo that we have up here. but i just think that democrats have to be the democratic elected officials do need to have their finger on the pulse of where the people in their districts are. now, some of the people in their districts, they may have wanted them to stand up and vote with the republicans on this. but overwhelmingly, i do not believe that that's where the base is. that's my. >> you know, it's but. >> it's the. >> problem you have is you have to understand. where your base is and who your base is, and recognize that your base is not just the folks who've who've been with you in this environment. your base is a is a larger swath of the country as well. and so because. not everyone is aligned with what's happening, not everyone's aligned with the project. 2025 dismantling the government. and they're certainly not aligned with what they've witnessed from this administration and what we saw in that chamber. so there is

some good energy. around what what. >> congressman greene did. >> there's good healthy energy there. recognize it for what it is. it's okay. i mean, look. >> marjorie taylor greene. >> and lauren boebert stood. >> up and showed. >> their behind. and what did republicans do? nothing. what did democrats do? nothing. you didn't you didn't. no one raised the bill to censure the two of them when they were screaming and yelling from the bleachers about, you know, during a congressional session. no one said anything then. so the question is. understand exactly the opportunity in front of you to recognize. >> you can. >> bring more. americans into the conversation, because there are a lot of frustrated americans right there, right. >> now thinking you guys don't. >> have a clue how. >> to deal with. >> what you're seeing in front of you. and so that the thermometer, thermostat, you know, analogy is an appropriate one. because you're trying to set the temperature. you need to understand what the temperature

is and move in that. >> space, in. >> my view. now look, i look, it's just. how you approach your politics because that's the bottom line. you're either going, you're either going to play in the game or you're going to play on from the sidelines. and right now, the democrats own the sidelines. and the republicans, no matter what they do, there's no appropriate response to it. so yeah, you got green doing what he did. as i said that night, half the room should have walked out with him because what's the republicans going to do. they're going to now come up with 110, you know senators. no. >> no. >> no they're not. >> and he was protesting medicaid. he said he stood up to say that you don't have a mandate to cut medicaid. and that should be very animating to all of us. there are medicaid is not just for some poor people that you don't know, because i know that's what a lot of people believe. there are people whose children have a disability, who have private insurance and medicaid covers with the private insurance will not. there are

people whose loved ones need home health care services, and medicaid covers that nursing homes. but can a rural hospital? >> but can you make the tea? what you're saying, simone, the important thing is those republican members who are all about doing this cut you cutting your cousin's medicaid. you know, you got a cousin on medicaid. you know, you got a family member, a relative or friend on medicaid. so you know what you're doing. >> you know, you got a rural hospital in your district. thank you. so cheers to representative greene. okay. and i just i want the rest of my democratic friends to just steel that spine a little bit. and i will note, yes, a number of democrats did walk out after the fact. >> well, that's why we have a. >> censure. >> vote, so that they. can distract. >> from the. >> fact. >> that they're about. >> to take away your family's medicaid. >> all right. next, donald trump praises intelligence sharing with ukraine. former cia director john brennan is here at the table. you're watching the the table. you're watching the weekend. experience advanced technology in the buick envision. ♪♪ equipped with the largest-in-class ultrawide 30-inch diagonal display

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inside the trump administration's department of justice. >> the administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy. >> maine justice new episodes drop every tuesday. msnbc presents a new podcast hosted by jen psaki. each week, she talks to some of the biggest names in democratic politics, with the biggest ideas for how democrats can win again. the blueprint with jen psaki. listen now. >> nbc news reports donald trump is considering a major shift on nato policy. it's a shocker not defending nato countries that are attacked if they fail to meet defense spending targets. this is something he said before. also this week, trump stopped sharing u.s. intelligence with ukraine and blocked military assistance to the country. here is the president yesterday defending vladimir putin. >> president putin is bombing ukraine. do you still believe him when. >> he tells you that he wants peace?

>> you know, i believe him, i believe him. i think we're doing very well with russia. but right now they're bombing the hell out of ukraine and ukraine. i'm i'm finding it more difficult, frankly, to deal with ukraine. and they don't have the cards. >> joining us now is former cia director john brennan. he's an msnbc national security and intelligence analyst. >> the fact is, they do have the cards. and that's probably the thing in this, director brennan, that is the most offensive, because how do you know they have the cards? because it's three years and russia still. >> doesn't own them. >> russia still doesn't has not taken kyiv. russia still is trying to figure out strategically how to do it. and now they've found the useful idiot to help them in the oval office. who's going to parrot that crazy and do what we saw happen to zelensky in the oval office last week? what is it

that our allies need to do at this point to do the work around? >> because you. >> and i know i've done a little work in the city. you've really done work in this space. you know, everybody's got. okay, let's turn the page. let's go to, you know, plan z. >> you know what they got? >> we know. right. so what do the allies do right now? are we starting to begin to see some of that in the rhetoric that's happening? we had, you know, a couple of members of the european parliament expressing a different tone and direction. how do you see this playing out right now? >> well, what's tragic is that donald trump is taking away ukraine's cards over the over the last three years, ukraine has been able to withstand a much larger military, the invasion of russia because of u.s. weapons systems, u.s. logistics support, technical systems, and intelligence and intelligence has been the lifeblood that has allowed the ukrainians to understand exactly. what the russians are

bringing after them. so the europeans now recognize that us reliability as an ally and support for ukraine is vastly eroding. and so therefore, they're trying to step up. now, they don't have the same type of capabilities that we have, either in terms of weapons production or intelligence capabilities. but what i'm pleased by is that i see the european. >> leaders are. >> galvanizing themselves in their countries in order to lend the support that they. >> can, stepping. >> up economic. >> assistance, military support. and they're talking also about providing military troops that could be inside of ukraine under some type of arrangement, whether it be a cease fire or whatever else. so i think the european countries are on the front lines. they recognize that ukraine has been doing all this fighting on their behalf and on our behalf over the last three years, and they're not going to allow the ukrainians just to fold. they're going. >> to. >> do everything possible, because there are still memories of what happened during world war two with hitler's germany, nazism, and how the russians and the soviets before them have put such pressure on europe. and so i think they're in this for the

long game. >> well. >> and. >> director brennan. >> i think sometimes when. >> we. >> talk about what is happening in ukraine. there are those who. >> think that. >> that only has. implications for ukraine. >> there are, of course, implications for our national security. >> based on what the president. said in. >> the. >> oval office, this. >> reporting from. >> nbc, our. allies are weighing the move to stop. >> sharing intel. >> with the united states because. >> of concerns. >> about. >> safeguarding foreign. >> assets whose identities could. inadvertently be revealed. >> said the sources, who. >> included two. foreign officials. if our allies share. >> less intel with the. >> united states, what. >> does that mean. >> for america's. national security? >> well. >> that's exactly right, alicia. intelligence sharing is a two way street with all of the countries around the world. the united states intelligence community is without doubt the strongest, the most powerful, the most pervasive intelligence community in the world. but our. strength really relies on the ability of other countries to collect intelligence and provide it to us. and they've been willing to do that over the years. we can't be every place

all the time, but a lot of these intelligence services have the presence in places where we don't. and so we rely on that. and what donald trump is doing now by starving the ukrainians on the intelligence front. and also, i think, demonstrating some recklessness, obviously, on national security. it's really raising questions in the minds of our allies and partners about whether or not they can trust providing their sensitive intelligence, human source intelligence, technical collection capabilities and other things to the united states, especially since trump is cozying up to vladimir putin, who knows what the trump administration might do in terms of providing insight to the russians about what intelligence capabilities western nations have. didn't someone from donald trump's administration within the last week and a half meet alone with putin? like they had a meeting where it was just him? >> yeah. it was. i forget who it was like a three hour meeting. >> it was a three hour meeting

with. no with no one else. director brennan i which can. >> i just can i just. >> layer in someone. >> they had that. >> meeting and. >> then they. >> also had a meeting. >> some trump allies, secret. >> talks with zelensky's. >> ukrainian opponents. so they are working both sides of this thing. sorry, simone, back to you. >> no, no, you're right. i mean, director brennan, i feel like this is just this coupled with what alicia was just saying about the intelligence concerns that some of our allies have. to me, it feels like that the rest of the world is now waking up to the fact that perhaps we need to do things a little bit differently, just like here domestically, we've been saying that this is not business as usual. it's not donald trump's first administration. people have to be willing to take a different tact. it seems like the rest of the world needs to needs, needs to get needs to arrive there much quicker and get a plan. because what we are seeing from the trump administration is like, why are we in a three hour meeting with vladimir putin with with no actual experts? why are you meeting with zelensky's, quote unquote, opposition, when

literally the country is under siege? like, i don't know. >> i think the rest of the. >> world recognizes that donald trump. >> is cutting deals and cutting them out of these deals. the fact that he had, you know, his officials meeting with russian officials in saudi arabia about ukraine without ukrainian officials present. it's absurd. it absolutely is absurd. he did the same thing in his first administration in terms of engaging in conversations and negotiations about afghanistan without afghan officials present. he had his, you know, long meeting with vladimir putin during his first administration in helsinki and cut out all of his officials as well. he wants to do these things privately, because i think we cannot really trust what it is that he's doing and saying. and therefore, i think a lot of our partners and allies traditionally, who have relied on the united states, who have trusted. >> the united. >> states, no longer have that trust and no longer can rely on us to do what is. >> right. >> not just for the united states, but also for this western alliance that really has been so critically important to our national security since

world war two, as well as to the rest of the western world. >> so. >> director, let's bring it a little bit closer to a backyard that you're very familiar with because you ran the cia and you have headlines right now that are showing exactly the level of disruption that's occurring there. cia starts firing recently hired officers inside u.s. spy agencies. workers fear a cataclysmic trump cull, a sensitive, complex housing of cia facility was on gsa's list of u.s. properties for sale. you had a federal judge ruling last week. the cia director can fire any employee if it is deemed to be in the national interest. but current and current and former officials told the washington post that that type of firing is disruptive to the work and to the very thing you were just talking about the gathering of intelligence and information so that our government can be better positioned to deal with the threats and the harm that we

can be of assistance to our allies, as they also deal with those threats and harms. it seems to me the threat and the harm is in the house. it's the current administration that wants to dismantle the very tool and instruments that you once controlled in helping this. the american people stay safe. yeah. i mean. >> there's so many different concerns here. >> one is the concern that secure. >> facilities, as well as identities of cia officers may be compromised because of the careless and reckless actions that the trump administration has taken, whether it's putting first names in an unclassified email or uncovering secure facilities. secondly, a lot of our intelligence professionals really rely on those relationships that we have around the world with liaison services. >> and now. >> they i'm sure they are feeling that there is not the same type of interaction and trust that they're getting. so they're being deprived of that

intelligence that we rely on. and thirdly, when they start to sack and to fire individuals who are coming. >> in. >> or in the probationary period, these are individuals that have been identified because they have the critical skills. >> that we. >> need to fill the gaps. and the people that are coming into the agency are the ones who have that. the latest technical skills, the latest insights into what's going around the world. they have the languages, the diversity, all of those things, the traits that we want in intelligence professionals. so again, what we see happening in the department of justice, in. fbi and in cia and other places is a curtailment of that. the resources that. >> we really. >> need in order to keep this country strong and safe. >> and so. >> i. >> think it's just going in a bad direction. and unfortunately, i'm concerned it's going to get worse. >> director. but i want to pick up on that. >> last point about recruitment. and about some of these folks. >> being let go. someone described. >> it as a. >> baseball team. >> firing all of their minor. >> league players. >> given the investment, the. >> sort of talent that has been

identified, who do they replace them with? >> that's a good question. it sounds like they're not going to replace them. >> and that. >> that analogy is exactly right. this is the farm system. these are the ones that are coming in. you want to prepare them for all of the challenges they're going to face in their future. and so the first 2 or 4 years of an agency officer's career is spent on the training, on familiarizing them with the types of disciplines that they're going to be involved in and the different types of intelligence challenges that they're going to face. and so you invest a lot in that. and so if you're going to be firing those probationary employees, you are setting yourself back from the standpoint of not being able to deal with the challenges of the future. so again, it is. just it is antithetical to what it is that the agency has tried to. do over the last 75 plus years, which is to groom these individuals in order that they can, in fact, meet the challenges that this country faces. >> former cia director john brennan always, sir, thank you for being with us. ahead. trump's retribution campaign. we're going to walk you through the latest legal moves aimed at his perceived enemies. be sure to follow our show on social

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listening to rachel maddow's chart topping series, msnbc original podcasts, exclusive bonus content, and all of your favorite msnbc shows now ad free. subscribe on apple podcasts. >> where either. >> of you homeland people. did you did you watch homeland? >> i want you to know if we had more time with director brennan, i was about to be like, how real is homeland? because it ended in russia. and so. >> save that for your. >> your forthcoming. >> podcast. >> with director brennan. >> where. >> you just hopefully we need to put some pressure on director brennan. i think he has a lot of personality, folks. okay, so a serious man because he's a serious time. >> i keep imagining. >> an additional. >> season where. >> the folks. >> in. >> homeland have to deal with doge. and they're getting headlines like the headlines that you. >> were reading. >> michael. >> where they're. >> like, really. >> a sensitive. complex housing. >> a cia. >> facility was. >> on. >> gsa's list of. >> u.s. properties. >> for sale. like, how are.

>> you supposed. >> to deal with these threats when. >> the. >> threats are. >> coming. >> in part from. >> its sheer incompetence within? >> yeah, the threat is inside the house. and that's that's more than anything else. my takeaway from what's happening right now that, you know, these institutions like the cia, for example, they just indiscriminately going after their there is no thought process involved here. because if there were, then you would know that that building over there is not something that you just want to put up for sale. right. but because it's on a list of other assets that the government has, and you're in the business of proving how much money you can save for whatever you want to spend that money on, the list is made up, that building is on the list, and people inside the agency. and this is the thing, more than anything else, that donald trump really wanted to put in place. the people inside the agency now don't fear, feel that they can say, wait a minute, tom, you

can't do that. >> yes. >> that's that's the ultimate end game in terms of these agencies. that's that's what they want a compliant, complicit, silent. do as i tell you workforce. and so that's how it winds up on the list. and then some, you know reporter going through the list. >> go. >> oh y'all really meant to put that building up for sale. >> where it was. it was really crazy, right? i was just like, now if i'm if i'm a foreign adversary, i'm like, well, what else they got around here? how do i match this profile with some other things? maybe we can triangulate and find out where some other secure secret facilities are. you know, we've said this before, but i think that the institutions that, you know, we have held so dear for so long, they have been compromised. and so people are not when we talk about the work of the cia and the work of the fbi, it is not about protecting at this point, i think the institution, because the institutions have absolutely been compromised by the president and the people that he's put in charge there. i think that it is about protecting the progress, the work, the relationships. and god

bless the, the, the agents and the officers within our intelligence apparatuses that still feel the need, the responsibility to stand up for american values and keep those jobs. >> that's why they're trying to get rid of them, because they don't need that level of interference right now and what they're doing. >> and on that note, refill that mug. we have another packed hour of the weekend ahead with congressman suhas subramanian, brendan boyle and legal analyst andrew weissman. that is all coming up on the weekend. it takes courage. >> to step. >> into big. >> shoes and. >> still walk. >> your own path. >> at ubs. >> we match your ambition with tailored advice to craft a. tailored advice to craft a. >> unique outcome my moderate to severe crohn's disease... ...and my ulcerative colitis symptoms... ...kept me... ...out of the picture. now...

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