>> go to friday plans pills.com to. >> get this deal. >> it's friday. >> plans pills.com. >> good morning. it's saturday, march 8th i'm melissa murray sitting in for my friend ali velshi. we begin this hour with the latest news from what is shaping up to be the last line of defense against president trump's authoritarian power grab. anyone who still. thought that the legislative branch might be up to the job of standing up to the president. >> well, you. >> just watched. >> congress roll over in real time. >> this week. >> republicans literally cheered. >> trump's retribution agenda, as well as the evisceration of the civil service and the surrender of power to an unelected, unaccountable billionaire donor. while democrats appear to be the slightly aggrieved attendees of

a private school silent auction. where does that leave us? well, it leaves us with the courts. and it should be noted, if you're looking for the last clear chance to prop up a flailing democracy against a president and a majority political party intent on toppling it, the judicial branch is not ideal. court challenges tend to be very specific and very narrow, and they take a long time to resolve. but in this daunting dystopia, beggars can't be choosers. and there have been some positive signs from the courts. for example, this week the supreme court weighed in on the trump administration's attempt to freeze $2 billion in foreign aid funds, a move that would have essentially dismantled usaid. chief justice john roberts and justice amy coney barrett sided with the court's three liberal justices to uphold a lower court's order directing the government to unfreeze some of those funds. following the supreme court's ruling, the lower court judge who was presiding over the case, ameer ali, directed the government to pay up by monday, march 10th.

now, to be very clear, this was a narrow ruling that did not address the core constitutional questions. and for now, it only applies to the plaintiffs who brought this case. the fate of hundreds of millions of dollars in federal funding remains unresolved. nonetheless, this case is an example of how the courts are standing up to this administration. and another good example of that occurred on thursday. judge beryl howell of the united states district court for the district of the district of columbia, rebuked president trump for firing gwen wilcox, a member of the national labor relations board. judge howell wrote that president trump did not have the authority to fire wilcox, and that his attempt to do so was, quote, a blatant violation of the law. judge howell also ruled that wilcox, who is the first black woman to ever serve on the nlrb, must be reinstated. the administration has appealed that ruling. now, i'm not the only person who sees the courts as potentially the last, best chance to stop donald trump from fully dismantling our

democracy and seizing power. trump and his allies also see the courts potentials to. that's why they're now escalating their attacks on judges and lawyers, who they see as threats to trump's power. in recent weeks, elon musk, a special governmental employee, has used his in various posts on x, he has called them corrupt, evil and radical, and according to reporting from reuters, all of this has led to a heightened threat environment for judges. musk has also called for some of those judges to be impeached, and a few house republicans have actually answered the call and filed impeachment resolutions against three judges. although it is very unlikely that these efforts will be availing. but all of this is part of a broader effort to delegitimize the courts. meanwhile, the white house is not just targeting courts, it's also targeting specific law firms as part of

its apparent campaign of retribution against the rule of law. on thursday, the president signed an executive order singling out perkins coie, a prominent law firm that did legal work for democrats during the 2016 campaign. the executive order strips the firm's lawyers of their security clearances and access to government buildings and officials. last month, the court the white house took a similar action against covington and burling, the venerable d.c. law firm that has done pro bono work for jack smith, the special counsel who twice indicted president trump. joining me now to break down all of these assaults on the rule of law are leah lipman, a professor of law at the university of michigan, co-founder of the women also know law website, and my co-host on the strict scrutiny podcast. alongside leah is barb mcquade, a former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan, a professor of practice at the university of michigan, and an msnbc legal analyst and co-host of the sisters in law podcast. barb is also the author of the book attack from within how

disinformation is sabotaging america. leah, let's talk about the supreme court and the ruling on foreign aid. it was a 5 to 4 decision, and a lot of attention has been paid to the fact that the chief justice and justice barrett joined the liberals here, but many people aren't talking about what i think is perhaps the most troubling aspect of this lineup. there were actually four justices who voted with the government to allow a president to stop the disbursement of congressionally appropriated funds. can you say more about what this lineup means, and whether the court will be a backstop against this administration? >> i think the bottom line is this ruling meant that democracy as we know it, the structure of our government survived by the hair on its chin, chin chin margin on one vote. here you had four republican justices who were in the dissent, saying that the president gets to not only exercise the executive power, but also effectively the legislative power as well. it is

up to congress how to spend money and to appropriate money for particular purposes. and what this challenge was about is whether the president can essentially countermand congress and refuse to spend money that congress has directed. and four republican appointees indicated that they were stunned that a majority of the court would not allow the president to exercise the legislative power. so i at least, am very concerned that the margins were that thin. and what that suggests about the court's willingness in the future to actually stand up to this president. >> barb, this administration has set its sights on two specific law firms, perkins coie and covington and burling. and it has signaled that it is in a position and will be in a position to make sure that other firms face similar consequences. is this simply because of those firms past representation of certain causes that were antithetical to donald trump and the administration, or is this part of a broader effort? and what is that broader effort?

>> well, yes, it seems to me that this is pure retribution. i mean, covington and burling represented jack smith, perkins coie represented hillary clinton. and so if you are looking for retribution, i think you need look no further. but i also think it is concerning that it may extend beyond these two. if donald trump can ban these two from federal buildings and security clearances and government contracts, he can do that to any law firm. and what's concerning about it is any law firm out there who is considering taking on a client that might be at odds with donald trump, might think twice and might refuse to take on that client, which really eviscerate the sixth amendment right to counsel. so that's very concerning. it also seems to me to be a blatant violation of the first amendment right to free association. anybody associated with those law firms, not just the lawyers themselves, cannot enter a federal building. that means they can't go to court to represent clients. and so i think this is going to have a tremendously detrimental effect on these law firms and their

clients. but really, any law firm who is sitting by and thinking that they're not coming for them next is sorely mistaken. >> all right. so, leah, that seems intended to ensure that law firms don't pick fights with the administration. but as barb suggests, there's also some real steps that these law firms can take. they can sue either making first amendment claims or other kinds of constitutional claims. but the courts themselves may not be the best avenue for bringing those kinds of fights because they move so slowly. in fact, hampton dellinger, who recently prevailed in a case against the administration, had this to say about the efficacy of court challenges on the rachel maddow show. so let's hear that. >> but the other issue, rachel, is it was going to be months, maybe a year before i get a final answer. i'd be on the sidelines the whole time. and i've seen the damage over the past month or so. that can happen in days, sometimes even hours, to these federal agencies when the laws aren't being followed. and so the idea of

trying to come back in a year and fix what i think might be broken forever in terms of the independence of my agency, was not something that i thought i could do. >> so, leah, if the courts are the last clear chance here, is this even a backstop that we should count on or that we should be reveling in? it seems like waiting for litigation to play out is as bad as the actual assault on the rule of law. >> it's better than nothing, but it is certainly not ideal, and it is not going to fix all of the gaps that are currently plaguing our government. i mean, if you look at and consider the us aid case, i mean, the funds that doge and elon musk have effectively stripped of that agency have been missing now for over a month. and so the idea that it is going to be a huge win for the court to actually require the government to pay out some of the money that it has owed for over a month to some people, that's not a huge

win. that is just a band-aid and a stopgap. and the same is going to be true in any challenge to these executive orders that are punishing the law firms. they can go to court as quickly as they want, but it's going to take time for courts to rule, and it's going to take time to get those cases up to the supreme court, which will inevitably have the final word on this topic. and so courts are doing something, and we should commend the judges who are brave enough to stand up and defend the rule of law. but the reality is they are not a substitute for a co-equal branch of government like congress that actually does have the tools to stand up to this administration. >> all right, barbara, another organization that is trying to stand up for the rule of law is the american bar association, which this week weighed in on president trump and elon musk's efforts to intimidate the justice system. the aba said that these efforts cannot, quote, be sanctioned or normalized. have we ever seen an instance like this where the legal profession itself has been under attack? and how can and how should lawyers and judges

protect themselves and the profession from these attacks, from the administration? >> no, we've never seen anything like this. i mean, from the earliest days of our country, john adams represented the soldiers from the british soldiers who participated in the boston massacre. the idea of representation for anyone has always been deeply respected, as has the rule of law. but i do think that there is more that can be done, because i think in addition to the courts and congress, we have public sentiment. and so the public has power here. when organizations like the aba use their collective voices to speak out against these things, they can educate the public. you know, abraham lincoln and nancy pelosi are fond of saying that public sentiment is everything. with public sentiment, you can do anything, and without it you can do nothing. and so the more organizations like the aba and others can speak out and educate the public that this is not normal and it's dangerous, and the extent to which this can go and harm ordinary people, i think that eventually they can turn the tide on public

sentiment. and that's what we need to do in this country in addition to lawsuits and, you know, hopes and prayers from congress. >> all right. one last question for you, leah. justice alito penned a pretty fiery dissent in that case involving usaid. in it, he said that judges really don't have the authority to unilaterally unfreeze or freeze federal funds, and that this judge, ameer ali, had gone too far. what do you make of that dissent and the ominous harbinger it might be for future rulings from this court? >> well, color me surprised that justice alito doesn't think that courts have the authority to stop the federal government from disbursing funds, because if i remember correctly, he was in the majority of the republican justices who stopped president biden from forgiving student loans. so the idea that he thinks courts just lack the power to weigh in on anything with respect to the executive branch's funding, is just ridiculously hypocritical. but it does underscore how much these republican justices are in the best tag for donald trump.

and the idea, again, that this ruling was five four is deeply concerning. when we are looking ahead at the next four years of courts possibly being the only institution in the federal government that is willing to stand up to donald trump even a little. >> all right. thank you, leah lipman and barbara mcquade for breaking all of that down. still ahead on velshi, a nonpartizan civil service was created for a reason to prevent government corruption. now, the trump administration is threatening to upend generations of safeguards. plus, the top federal prosecutor in d.c. is targeting one of the most prestigious law schools in the country. the dean of that law school is cracking open the constitution to push back all of constitution to push back all of that is up next. experience advanced technology in the buick envision. ♪♪ equipped with the largest-in-class ultrawide 30-inch diagonal display and google built-in compatibility, innovation is at your fingertips. buick. exceptional by design. friend linda has you

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talks between the two countries on tuesday in saudi arabia. the goal is to, quote, get down a framework for a peace agreement and an initial cease fire, according to the trump administration. all of this comes in the wake of last week's extraordinary scene in the oval office, where trump and vice president j.d. vance berated zelensky and demanded that he personally thank them all before kicking the ukrainian delegation out of the white house. following that, this week, the trump administration proceeded to cut all u.s. military aid and intelligence sharing with ukraine. since that decision, russia has significantly ramped up deadly attacks on civilian targets and infrastructure in ukraine, firing several hundred missiles and drones on a daily basis. yesterday, trump took to social media to threaten russia with, quote, large scale banking sanctions and tariffs due to the ongoing strikes. however, he shortly thereafter struck a more conciliatory tone.

>> president putin is bombing ukraine. do you still believe him when he tells you that he wants peace? >> yeah. no, i believe him, i believe him. i think we're doing very well with russia. but right now they're bombing the hell out of ukraine and ukraine. i'm. i'm finding it more difficult, frankly, to deal with ukraine. i find that in terms of getting a final settlement, it may be easier dealing with russia. >> still to come on. velshi to the victor belongs the spoils. that was a motto coined in the 19th century, which essentially meant that the winner takes all. even in an election. the spoils system in the united states led to rampant government corruption during the 19th century, and it is the reason for our modern day civil service, the one that donald trump seems intent on dismantling. all of that is up next on velshi.

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>> a lot. honey, lock. >> it up. oh, okay. >> yeah. >> welcome back to velshi. the president pictured here fired more federal workers than all of his predecessors combined, filling the federal government with his own loyalists instead. no, no, not that president. i'm talking about the other president, the one on the portrait on the wall. that's the seventh president of the united states, andrew jackson, in 1829, in his first year in office, jackson fired 20% of the federal workforce and replaced many high ranking officials with his own supporters. jackson was not the first president to put his own people in a position of power, but the scale and scope of his moves to surround himself with cronies was absolutely unprecedented. senator john holmes of maine challenged jackson's decisions in an 1830 speech to congress. he called jackson's actions, quote, a crisis in our affairs. it is a state of things unparalleled in our history. the public interest

is put in jeopardy by displacing experience and fidelity and substituting mere partizans without regard to qualifications. end quote. in an attempt to defend jackson, new york senator william marcy coined the term spoil systems when he declared, quote, to the victor belongs the spoils. and so it was. the spoils system became the way that government officials were hired. if you were a loyal party member and collected campaign contributions, swung some votes, you could expect a nice, cushy government job at the end of the election cycle. and for much of the 19th century, this was the norm. but the thing about filling the government with your cronies is that the constituents tend to notice. following a number of high profile corruption scandals in the 1860s and 1870s, the american people decided that they'd had enough of the spoils system. in fact, mark twain, who had never campaigned for a politician before, was so tired of the

corruption that he actually went out and stumped for presidential candidate rutherford b hayes because hayes promised civil service reform. in an 1876 speech, twain said, quote, we will not hire a blacksmith who has never lifted a sledge. we will not hire a schoolteacher who does not know the alphabet. but when you come to our civil service, we serenely feel great numbers of our minor public offices with ignoramuses. again, whom so many politicians benefited from the spoils system. and in fact, it was actually very difficult to reform it because of those beneficiaries. james a garfield, who was elected president in 1880, tried to make the change, but it took a tragedy to actually prompt real reform. in july of 1881, a man named charles guiteau snuck up behind president garfield and fatally shot him. guiteau had volunteered for garfield's 1880 campaign. he'd written some pamphlets and donated some money. and after garfield won,

guiteau, perhaps overestimating his contributions to the campaign, assumed that he would be in line for a plum diplomatic post, and when the garfield administration rejected that request, guiteau resorted to violence. chester a arthur who was garfield's vice president, then assumed the presidency. after garfield's assassination. arthur had been a staunch supporter of the spoils system, but even he was so horrified by garfield's assassination that he changed his tune. in 1883, president arthur signed the pendleton act, which established a professional civil service and required employees to be hired based on competency tests and merit. initially, the act only covered a small percentage of federal jobs, but over time its scope grew. since then, the civil service has been increasingly professionalized, and as importantly, it has been increasingly insulated from politics. that is, until now. on day one of his second term,

donald trump signed an executive order removing civil service protections for some federal employees, making it easier for the president and his administration to fire them. since then, his administration has swept through agency after agency, firing nonpartisan experts. and to be very clear, the spoils are there, too. trump's commerce secretary donated more than $9 million to his campaign, and his secretary of education donated more than $20 million to his campaign. and all of that is eclipsed by the contributions made by his very special government employee, the one entrusted with gutting the civil service, elon musk. musk spent more than $260 million on trump's campaign. joining me now to talk about all of this, and to put all of this history into context, is joanne freeman. she is an award winning historian and professor of history and american studies at yale

university. joanne, we have alluded to some of the corruption that came as a result of the spoils system. but can you take us deeper? what happened as a result of the government jobs that were essentially being put up for sale to the highest bidder? well. >> the rise. >> of andrew jackson meant the rise essentially, of what now we recognize as a political party. it was organized as party discipline and, not surprisingly, with that kind of party came cronyism, corruption. so that jackson sweeps in and says he's going to eliminate all these employees, and he puts in relatives and friends and newspaper editors and a variety of other people who, like andrew jackson, into these offices. so it was it was pretty rampant. and his intention was pretty clear. alexander hamilton's son, james, who is the second oldest after poor phillip, who dies in that duel, was someone who was close with andrew jackson. and when jackson made him the

attorney for the southern district of new york, he said, and this is a almost exact statement, but kind of a paraphrase. take the job. make as much money as you can, but you are at my command. and i think that kind of sums it up. >> well, okay, all sounds a. >> little familiar. what can that history do to illuminate the current moment that we're i, when, as we're seeing a number of members of this administration are not just experts, maybe not even experts in the particular fields that they are charged with leading. they're simply big donors to the effort to elect donald trump. >> right. well, if you look at the long history of the civil service, it's kind of always a battle between cronyism and merit. merit meaning, expertise, merit, meaning, knowledge, merit, meaning experience. so you start out with blatant rampant cronyism. and then, as you just said a few moments ago in the late 19th and then in 1978 as well, you get reform

from people who say this is blatant cronyism, it's corruption. what if we institute things so that the people getting appointed to these jobs actually merit the jobs, actually have experience? and so what we're seeing now, in a sense, is blatant cronyism of a sort, or certainly the setup for it by firing and eliminating people with expertise. and, you know, it's important to remember the civil service. generally speaking, it's not partizan, right? these are people with expertise who do things like keep drugs safe, keep the air safe. >> and they often. >> transcend administration, like people will be in the same job in the civil service, whether they're republicans or democrats. over the course of changing administrations. >> precisely. and particularly if you're working in the government. yeah. having someone who has long term experience, that's vital. that's that's something that's really important to have. >> so this isn't simply about sort of divesting. >> the government of these jobs. like we've seen the massive job

cuts. it's actually stripping the government of expertise that will take us into whatever the next era of government is. so what's the cost of that? i mean, we've talked about the loss of merit and the rise of cronyism. this is all while the government talks about eliminating die and restoring merit based hiring and other contexts. but what does the loss of expertise actually mean for how government is going to operate? >> well, i mean, bluntly, it's not going to operate as well. and, you know, things are not going to be as safe because the people with the expertise to keep things safe are being moved away. and, you know, we're seeing an attempt to have more control over the government, but control at the price of safety and at the price of accountability, really. so that's what we're watching the stage be set for right now. it doesn't really bode well for what's to come. >> have we ever. >> seen anything like this? is this unprecedented or is the only kind of precursor we have? is andrew jackson.

>> on this scale? no. >> no. >> not on this scale. like jackson, we have and he did wipe out a huge percentage of people. but as far as seeing something on the scale and at one time, you know, the chainsaw approach to the government and just eliminating entire departments like this within a week, two weeks, three weeks. no, this is this is something new, right? >> lessons from history with joanne freeman, who has always been america's teacher. thank you so much, joanne. all right. when we come back, we are going to see all of the new signs that the trump administration is taking to end access and abortion, despite the fact that he says that this is all about states rights. we will get back states rights. we will get back into that after the break. ♪ [suspenseful music] trains. [whoosh] ♪ trains that use the power of dell ai

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series, msnbc original podcasts, exclusive bonus content, and all of your favorite msnbc shows. now ad free. subscribe on apple podcasts. president trump's first 100 days. watch. >> i'm going to be here five days a week again. >> read and listen. >> staying up half the night reading executive orders. >> for this defining time in the second trump presidency. stay with msnbc. >> georgetown university law center's welcome page features this quote from its dean, william treanor. quote at georgetown law, we are committed to the jesuit concept of cura personalis, educating the whole person and advancing justice through the law. central to these core values is an emphasis on holistic learning, wellness, and creating a campus culture where all community members can thrive. this commitment is also evidenced in our work in

diversity, equity and inclusion. our belief in the critical importance of dei is rooted in our founding as an institution that has always sought to be to open more doors and to be a force for social justice. end quote. it's an important statement, one that reflects the catholic values that have shaped one of the nation's largest and most prestigious law schools. but some people took that personally. by some people, i mean acting u.s. attorney ed martin, the top federal prosecutor in washington, d.c, where georgetown is located. martin sent a letter warning dean treanor that the u.s. attorney's office in d.c. would not hire anyone from a law school or university with a commitment to dei principles. martin's letter said, quote, at this time you should know that no applicant for our fellows program, our summer internship or employment in our office who is a student or affiliated with a law school or university that continues to teach and utilize dei, will be considered. before we get into that, let me tell you a little bit about acting

d.c. u.s. attorney ed martin. martin was a conservative lawyer who served as a defense attorney for some of the january 6th rioters. as the acting dc u.s. attorney, martin now oversees hundreds of cases involving the events that took place at the capitol on january 6th. now, if you're thinking this must be a conflict of interest, you would be right. but keep listening. in january 2025, within 24 hours of assuming his new post as acting u.s. attorney, martin found himself on wait for it both sides of the same january 6th case as ordered by president trump. martin trooped into the federal court in dc to ask the court to dismiss the case against a january 6th defendant. but as reuters first reported, martin's effort to have the case dismissed was complicated by the fact that although he was now the prosecutor, he was also still listed as the defense counsel in the case. that's right. as prosecutor, he was

trying to dismiss a case in which he was also representing the defendant. awkward. martin did eventually file a motion to be removed as counsel for that january 6th defendant, but the court refused to grant martin's motion to withdraw, not because of any perceived conflict of interest, but because martin's bar membership had lapsed. >> yes. >> the top federal prosecutor in d.c. was not, at the time, a member in good standing of the u.s. district court for the district of columbia, a court where the u.s. attorney for d.c. has a lot of business. anyway, back to martin's latest effort to carry out trump's political priorities. in martin's letter to dean treanor in which he threatened to not hire anyone affiliated with georgetown law unless the school ends, all dei efforts, martin posed two questions to the dean quote first, have you eliminated all

dei from your school in its curriculum? second, if dei is found in your courses or teaching in any way, will you move swiftly to remove it? traynor, who is a constitutional law scholar, responded by noting that martin's threat seems to run afoul of the constitution. as traynor explained. quote. your letter informs me that your office will deny our students and graduates government employment opportunities until you, as interim united states attorney for the district of columbia, approve of our curriculum. given the first amendment's protection of a university's freedom to determine its own curriculum and how to deliver it, the constitutional violation behind this threat is clear, as is the attack on the university's mission. as a jesuit and catholic institution. a12 first amendment punch. traynor then continued, quote, georgetown educated attorneys have for decades served this country capably and selflessly in offices such as yours, and we

have confidence that that tradition will continue. we look forward to your confirming that any georgetown affiliated candidates for employment will receive your office's full and fair consideration. what to say? inject this into my veins. more of this in 2025. ordinary people doing extraordinary things and having the courage to hold our having the courage to hold our leaders t i'm at the home internet awards, with the t-mobile home internet guys! what's it like working with your best friend? you make me feel safe, like t-mobile's advanced cyber security. you're there for me 24/7 like t-mobile's personal tech support. you're my rock. you guys have made a lot of home internet commercials. what's changed? my feelings for him won't change, like t-mobile's price lock. they won't raise your rate on internet. our relationship feels like a rose born without thorns. oohhh! get t-mobile 5g home internet. choose from plans packed with benefits. protected. supported. price lock. you better stop it. was not

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has a new warning for republican senators. get behind all of trump's cabinet picks or face political consequences. >> we have republicans. >> now advocating for the elimination of health care for the poor. >> just hours. >> after swearing. >> to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution of the united states, donald trump issued an executive order to defer most consequential amendments. >> we are all watching. and waiting to see who is going to hold the line. don't miss the weekends, saturday. >> and sunday. >> mornings at. >> 8:00 on msnbc. >> in the. >> aftermath of the dobbs decision, which overturned roe versus wade and withdrew the federal right to an abortion, many conservatives, along with donald trump, assured the american public that the court issue was about restoring power to decide the question of abortion to the states. framing it in this way was likely because they understood that most americans do not want abortion to be banned entirely.

but after the dobbs decision was handed down, the masks slowly came off. now with their biggest obstacle, roe v wade removed, red states quickly moved to strip women of their bodily autonomy wherever they live. the mantle of states rights gave way to the concept of fetal personhood, and suddenly a movement that now calls for a fertilized egg to be granted legal rights. all of this has been turbocharged. this not only opens the door for every miscarriage in an anti-abortion state to become a potential murder investigation. fetal personhood has also laid the groundwork for a wave of draconian handmaid's tale style laws in anti-abortion states that are specifically designed to reach across state lines to criminalize abortion, even in places where it is still legal. that includes bills that specifically target pregnant women in states like montana for trafficking their own fetus if they cross state lines to obtain a legal abortion. that bill has

for now been tabled. there are also strict abortion bans in states like texas and louisiana that are being used to go after doctors in other states. there's also the proposed bill in missouri that would launch a registry of pregnant women who are deemed at risk of having an abortion, and that registry could then be accessed by couples seeking to adopt. obviously, none of this was ever about states rights. it has always been about controlling women, and the anti-abortion movement will not stop until abortion is effectively banned across this country. that has always been the endgame of the anti-abortion movement in a post-roe america. and in the 32 months since dobbs gutted reproductive rights. hundreds of women across the country have been charged with crimes relating to their pregnancies. all of that, according to pregnancy justice, an advocacy group. since donald trump took office, he has issued a slew of orders that align with project

2025 proposals. of course, project 2025 was the ultra conservative blueprint for a second trump term. and to be very clear. project 2025 goals for abortion was nothing short of a nationwide ban. project 2025 states. quote from the moment of conception, every human being possesses inherent dignity and worth, and our humanity does not depend on stage of development. project 2025 also proposes institutionalizing a nationwide surveillance system for pregnant women, stating, quote, because liberal states have now become sanctuaries for abortion tourism, hhs should use every available tool, including the cutting of funds, to ensure that every state reports exactly how many abortions take place within its borders, at what gestational age of the child, for what reason, the mother's state of residence, and by what method. end quote. project 2025 also directly calls for the fda to

revoke its approval of medication abortion, which is used in nearly two thirds of all abortions. this week, the justice department began to take actions that suggest that the trump administration is swiftly moving toward all of these goals. on tuesday, the doj dismissed a lawsuit that had been brought by the biden administration against the state of ohio over ohio, idaho's total abortion ban, paving the way for that idaho band to go back into effect. the biden administration had sued idaho, charging that the state's strict abortion ban violated a federal law designed to require hospitals to provide stabilizing care to all patients whose health is in danger. because the idaho ban is so strict, it could actually prevent women who are miscarrying or experiencing serious pregnancy complications from accessing emergency abortion care in violation of that federal law. also on tuesday, trump's justice department requested and received an extension in the

ongoing abortion medication case in texas, all part of a broader review of the medication abortion cases. if you recall, last year, the supreme court ruled unanimously that the original plaintiffs in that case lacked standing to bring their suit in federal court. but later, conservative texas judge matthew kazmarek ruled that a new set of plaintiffs, this time the states of idaho, kansas and missouri, still had standing and could bring an active case. now, these states are pushing for the fda to prohibit telehealth prescriptions for mifepristone, one of the drugs in the two drug medication abortion protocol. and the justice department under biden had requested that that case should be dismissed. but on thursday, two days after the doj requested the extension on that case, trump's nominee to lead the fda, doctor marty mccarthy, said during a hearing that he would review a biden era rule that allowed patients to get mifepristone without first seeing a health care provider in

person. these legal maneuvers are very easy to overlook, but they are significant, and they signal that the trump administration is ready to endorse, or at least to condone and tolerate the laws and legal philosophy that would be philosophy that would be foundational to ending abortion (vo) with usps ground advantage, it's like you're with us every step of the way. ♪ (man) right on time! (vo) stay in the know. from your dock... to their door. -honey... -but the gains are pumping! dad, is mommy a "finance bro?" she switched careers to make money for your weddings. oooh the asian market is blowing up! hey who wants shots, huh?! -shots?? -of milk. the right money moves aren't as aggressive as you think. ♪ like a relentless weed, moderate to severe ulcerative colitis symptoms can keep coming back. start to break away from uc with tremfya... with rapid relief at 4 weeks.

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health policy at georgetown university law center. michelle is also the host of the on the issues with michelle goodwin podcast and the author of the book policing the womb invisible women and the criminalization of motherhood. michelle, so much to talk about. how do you interpret this week's moves by the doj, particularly with regard to the requested extension in the mifepristone case? >> well, as. >> you laid out very clearly, melissa, what we see is the beginning of project 2025 taking shape within the doj and more broadly within the trump administration. we have to understand that the emergency medical treatment and labor act, which is. mta, was in fact passed during a republican administration. it was when reagan was in the white house, and then it was further through doj clarification that it also applied to matters of abortion as well. now, all of this

together, as you've laid out, you know, it's idaho and crisis, which is really a matter of democracy. it's also this challenge of mifepristone as well, which is also a question of democracy. when the supreme court in the dobbs decision said that we will leave these matters to states rights, it's really clear that the strategy unfolding is, in fact, to make sure that abortion will, in fact, cease to exist for the most part in the united states if, in fact, brakes aren't pumped on this trump administration. and that really is the goal to make sure that there are no avenues for women to be able to seek, and people with the capacity for pregnancy to be able to seek this type of medical care. >> can we lay the blame for all of this at the feet of the united states supreme court? in the last term, the court did not decide a case that either upheld or dismissed the fda's authority to approve mifepristone. they punted it on standing grounds, as we discussed. they also

didn't decide the case about the conflict between the idaho abortion law and amtala. and they have left that question to be resolved. now, what we're seeing right now just seems to be the result of the court's inaction on these very core issues. but is that better than what the outcome would be if we'd actually had the court decide this? >> well, you know, we could spend a whole weekend talking about those actions of the supreme court and its opportunistic originalism. right? you know, so what we saw in both of those supreme court cases was the court moving on procedural grounds rather than on substantive questions as a substantive matter, federal law supersedes and trumps state laws. so that when there is federal legislation, it has preemption authority over any state law. and that would be in the space of medical treatment as well. imagine this scenario. imagine that there is a federal law that, let's say, protects

individuals and makes sure that they can be stabilized when they have a heart attack. that really is what mta is also about. right? and then imagine that there's a state that says, you know what? we just think that people who are having heart attacks should just die right? in the in the parking lot of hospitals, right in front. it would be very clear that amtala applies to these men in cardiac arrest. and of course, women can have cardiac arrest as well. but of course, that would be seen as absurdist for a state to say we don't have to stabilize and we'll just ignore this federal law that says that all individuals who are experiencing medical crises must be stabilized. it is just that there is this selectivity that seeks to carve out these kinds of harms that are permissible in the lives of women and girls and those who are having reproductive crises. >> right. there's entirely too much to talk about as we begin our slouch towards gilead. michelle goodwin, thank you so

much for your insights today, ladies and gentlemen. that does it for me. thank you so much for watching. velshi you can catch velshi every saturday and sunday morning from 10 a.m. to noon eastern time. and you should stay where you are, because the katie phang show starts right now. this is the katie. >> phang show live from. msnbc headquarters in new york city. watching the clock. the countdown is on for republicans to pass a budget bill and avert a government shutdown. but can house speaker mike johnson hold his razor thin majority together to get it done? texas congresswoman jasmine crockett joins me to explain why democrats are telling the gop do it yourself. plus, destroying the department of education, the latest wave of staffers affected by trump's fresh round of federal c