oooh. you know, it's kinda like when you bring a really big cake for your birthday, and then there's only a little, tiny sliver left for the birthday girl. aw. well, wish her a happy birthday. happy birthday... -it's... ...to her. -no, it's me. have your cake and eat it, too. don't settle for t-mobile or verizon 5g home internet. get super fast xfinity internet you don't have to share. forty's going to be my year. >> old school pills. connect with a medical provider at rocus. >> sparks as the trump administration forges ahead during these critical first 100 days, rachel. maddow is on five nights a week. >> more than ever. this is not a time to pretend this isn't happening. >> the rachel maddow show. >> weeknights at 9:00. >> on msnbc. >> okay, folks, jen is on a well-deserved vacation. but boy, do we have a lot to get into today. we all know donald trump wants to be a king, right? so

this week he sat back and watched his court jesters fight it out. plus, after the white house stopped sharing intelligence with ukraine, vladimir putin was ready to take full advantage. and later, maga world turns on amy coney barrett, all because of one ruling and one sideways glance. donald trump has been president for almost two months now, but we all know he really wants to be a king. he's not subtle about that fact. not at all. take exhibit a on tuesday night, when he used his joint address to congress to tell the tale of an american empire where he runs it all, rules it all, controls it all. or exhibit b when the white house shared a drawing of trump in a crowd with the caption, long live the king, or exhibit c

when he said he who saves his country does not violate any law or exhibit d when he told the governor of maine, we are the federal law folks. i could probably go through the whole damn alphabet listing exhibits of how trump aspires to be a king. but i'll give you just one more because it's sunday. this one happened behind closed doors at a cabinet meeting this week, when trump officials clashed with unelected co-president elon musk, according to the new york times, musk lashed out at secretary of state marco rubio, saying he fired nobody. rubio, of course, shot back, saying musk was not being truthful. musk countered that by saying ho ho, rubio was good on tv, of course, implying he's not good for much else. and here's the kicker throughout all of this, the president sat back in his chair, arms folded as if he were

watching a tennis match, because of course he did. because trump loves to pit people against each other. he loves to create internal conflict. he loves to see who will fight harder for him, who will be the most loyal to him. that's how he ran his businesses. that's how he ran the apprentice boardroom. and folks, that's how he's running his presidency, because he sees himself as all powerful, like a king, and he sees the people around him as court jesters, just there to serve him, praise him, entertain him. and they sure are living up to that name. in true royal fashion, all the king's horses,, and all the king's men had been lining up to pay tribute. this week, the republican congressman introduced legislation to put a trump to put trump's face on a $100 bill. haha. but not to be

outdone, another republican lawmaker wants to go even higher than the $100 proposing legislation to design a $250 bill featuring donald trump. okay, it gets even crazier. there's also a push to make trump's birthday a federal holiday, renamed dulles airport after him, and carve his face into mount rushmore. but of course, the biggest gesture of them all may be senator lindsey graham, who posted this after trump's joint address. trump 2028. yes, that is senator. united states senator graham jumping on the unconstitutional bandwagon and endorsing a third trump term. so we know trump sees himself as a king. we know the party sees him as a king as well. but how do our federal courts see it? well, we got the

answer to that question late this week when a federal judge reversed trump's firing of a member of the national labor relations board. here's part of the ruling. an american president is not a king, not even an elected one. a president who touts an image of himself as a king or a dictator, perhaps has his vision of effective leadership fundamentally misapprehends the role under article two of the us constitution. amen to that. i guess the constitution still matters, folks. joining me now, former republican congressman joe walsh and incoming senior washington correspondent and co-host for msnbc, my buddy eugene daniels. joe, i couldn't help but notice your head nodding there throughout that. i'm just going to let you address that. those scenarios from the $250 bill to mount rushmore to, oh, a third trump term. >> it's too easy to have fun

with this. but michael, this is scary. pardon me on a sunday morning. and lindsey graham there a united states senate. you don't joke about that right. trump's what, 7879 years old? i have no doubt that if trump could, he would. >> try. >> to run again. i think, michael, the. biggest failure of all of us during this trump era has been the failure of imagination. we haven't just we have not imagined how bad and how low he'd go. he tried to overthrow an american election four years ago. >> i have. >> no doubt that he could try to stop the midterm elections. if he's physically able, he may try to run again in 28. this is really scary. >> it is scary, eugene. and you've covered trump for quite a bit. contrast your understanding, appreciation, if you will, of trump 1.0 and trump 2.0. in light of what is now put on the table, this imperial

presidency that he's trying to create. >> i think. >> what folks are seeing. >> what you saw. on tuesday. >> in his joint address, is. that trump 1.0 was being stopped from doing some of these things, right. the people. >> that were. >> around him, the republicans. who had grown up. >> in the rnc, who had. >> who had been a part of your your right at. >> one point, all of those. folks saw an end. >> to trumpism. they saw, okay, at some point, whether it's 4 or 8 years, we're going to have a republican. >> party that looks. >> like what we're used to. that's not the case anymore. so that means people get on the trump train. >> and the trump train. >> includes nowadays. >> people who are either true believers that work with him in the white house or don't see their jobs as. >> trying to stop him. from doing anything. >> they don't. they're not going to take things off the resolute desk, like. >> what happened in trump 1.0. they're going to stop him from doing things. if he wants to do something, they're going to find ways for him to do it right. that is something that you hear over and over and over again from folks. >> and i've talked to a lot of people.

>> and one thing that stuck out to me was on the 19th, before they got in, someone who was going. >> into. >> the d.o.j. and is now there said that they're ready to test the boundaries and. >> stretch them. right. >> and i said. >> well, which boundaries? >> and they said, all of them. right. and so it is about all. >> of those things. >> and so that's the difference between. >> 1.0 and 2.0. >> the people. around him. >> don't see. >> themselves as needing to stop anything. they want to go there to advance it. they're there to give more meaning and purpose, sort of making it more official. joe, in many respects. and you see that i think in this, in this cabinet meeting where at one point trump, you know, just has to sort of check, i guess, elon musk and says, oh, you know, the cabinet members, you guys are in charge. you get to decide. he just gets to advise. how much of that what does that say to you about how trump is looking at to what eugene just said, looking at how he wants these scenarios to play out in these various agencies that

pitter pat between marco and elon really was just, you know, sort of slinging between the two men. but at the end of the day, i think trump is going to allow elon to sling a little bit more than rubio. but how do you see it even though he says you are in charge? >> rubio no, i agree with you, michael. i think trump views elon as. >> the man. >> yeah. >> elon as the man to do his dirty work. you know, in a weird way, you can't blame trump for feeling like he's a king. we talk about a king. what is that? somebody who believes they're above the law and they're not accountable. well you can't blame trump. look at all he's gotten away with and no one's ever held him accountable. and here he sits in the white house. he's got no legislative branch to worry about. the republican party is his right. who's going to stop him? the courts, the people. he feels untouchable right now. >> and that's the part i find the most frustrating. eugene. i

mean, you're you're on the hill, you're around about dc. you're seeing these players in the quiet spaces, right? we'll talk about those quiet spaces. right. and they're they're they're leveling up what they really think and what they really feel. and what kills me about that is everyone to a person is would say, oh, this is awful. we can't let this happen. dude, you have the power to stop it. what, what? how do you see that? i mean, how how come they can't say. oh, well, wait a minute. there are ten, 20, 30, 50 of us in congress who don't want to see the department of education blown up, but we don't want to see usaid go away because of its you know, that's part of our soft power. no, mr. president, what happens? you're going to be shocked. but they are saying

different. >> things in front of the cameras. >> they're saying. >> just behind closed doors. you know, what. >> i hear often from republicans is they're hopeful. >> that they won't. >> have to stand up to him because they're scared. >> of what they. think that like, let. >> the courts handle it, right. >> they think that the courts will shake things out. >> the things that. >> he really wants, that they even they see as unconstitutional. these republicans, they're like, you know, the courts will. handle that. we won't have to. >> worry about it because they're worried about their families. >> they're worried about the people that work for them. >> because it's not just. >> you know, donald trump. >> is going to send a. >> mean truth social. >> post about you, right? it is that you're going. >> to start getting. >> death threats from folks that are his followers. you're going. >> to start. >> your your your kid who. who is going to college. someone may bother them. those are the. kinds of things they're thinking about. >> and i want to add just really quickly. >> on that cabinet meeting, what i found most interesting wasn't that. >> donald trump likes. >> to, you know, pit people against doesn't have to have that fight, which is also. fascinating and has been a. >> part of his whole.

>> life. >> but mostly that it was clear that he was hearing from. >> these cabinet members that they were getting frustrated with how much. elon was able to. >> do and is. >> able to do, and so that moving forward is something that folks should keep watching. >> right. >> marco rubio was kind of the first. >> one because. >> of. us aid and what he. >> did over. >> there. and there's a lot of frustration. within the cabinet. about how. elon musk has been able to run roughshod across their departments and agencies. >> quickly. without with. >> reckless abandon, and with like 20. >> year olds doing. >> it. >> when they. thought that. >> they would be doing the job of a company. yeah, yeah, yeah. but they're pretty quiet. poor little cabinet members. i feel so bad for you. so to you, joe, on your point about the courts being the bulwark against all of this, we saw the side eyes and the and the horrific response to comey. barrett about amy coney barrett at the at that capitol hill event. what what say you? she's been an independent player in many respects. she and the chief justice sometime align on on rulings what to expect there.

>> the king will defy a court order. >> that's the next piece of this. >> michael the king is going to defy. the supreme court. and then what does the republican party do? i mean. >> the king is not the party. what the hell does the country do? >> right? right now the king is standing with putin and standing against the free world. and the party's quiet when the king defies the supreme court, what does the country do? all right. >> eugene walsh. >> eugene walsh, listen. >> i feel like you, eugene, i just. >> i just merged the two of them people. i literally just looked so much alike. they look so much alike. it's the hair. it's the hair. i'm envious. same hair. joe walsh and eugene daniels, thank you both. coming up after the trump administration. stop sharing intelligence with ukraine. we'll get into that. we got more news this morning. that was music to vladimir putin's ears. we'll be right back. >> i feel like. new sunglasses.

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>> first, donald trump invited president zelensky to the oval office, so he and jd vance could try to publicly humiliate him. then trump froze all military aid to ukraine. and now, well, he's cut ukraine off from u.s. intelligence. and right on cue, russian forces launched devastating attacks on ukraine, striking ukrainian troops and crucial supply lines, u.s. officials have told nbc news that ukraine continues to get u.s. defensive intelligence, but one ukrainian official said as a result of this pause, there are hundreds of dead ukrainians. and what's donald trump had to say about all of this? that the u.s. is doing very well with russia, and putin is doing what everybody else would do. and as if we needed any more evidence about which side trump is on, he's now moving the goalposts even further for ukraine. he had been pursuing, as you recall,

right, that mineral deal with the ukrainians as a condition to military aid. remember that? well, nbc news today is reporting that trump has privately made clear that a signed mineral deal, quote, won't be enough to restart aid and intelligence sharing. denver riggleman is a former republican congressman and a former air force intelligence officer. naomi mcgrath is a former marine corps fighter pilot. both of them joined me, now in denver. the news this morning from nbc news is problematic. troubling, troubling. but in many ways not surprising that ukraine has to give up natural resources. but that's now not enough to get a deal for peace. what's your reaction, sir? >> my reaction is always, you know, you're stunned, but not surprised. you know it's the opposite. and i think part of it

too is why isn't donald trump so strident in his negotiating path with russia? why does it seem to always be about zelensky? and we look at what's happened over the last week or two with our withdrawal of intelligence support. it's not just that, right? it's the fact is that we've taken away commercial imagery over there. right. we have issues with that. we're taking away every single step. we're almost stacking our priorities against ukrainian defense. so it's really that much of a surprise. then you have the double whammy, right, michael? this morning where elon musk all of a sudden comes out and says, hey, we need to withdraw from europe, from nato, and europe needs to take care of their own defense. what are we seeing here? we're seeing messaging that really goes to the to the heart of the matter is that this looks like a pro-russia stance by trump, especially when you see all of the intelligence apparatus that's been taken away, whether it's cyber command, whether it's cia standing down, whether it's the pentagon standing down on deprioritization, right, whether it's being cut, the cia, esa, all these things seem to point to me based on the negotiating tactics that trump likes to be tough on people other than

putin, which leads some to believe in the intelligence community and maybe an analysis like here, that maybe he's really not a great actor in this. >> yeah, that that's putting it politely. i think, amy, i think one of the aspects of this that certainly given your, your training and background has to be very concerning and disturbing is the, the taking away the ability to do the imagery to, to get the access to the information. what does it mean in practical terms for ukrainian forces to lose access to our intelligence? >> yeah. and make no mistake, there really is no defensive and offensive intelligence. it's just intelligence. because when you what you're doing, when you take that away is you're taking away the ukrainians ability to see and understand the battlefield, to see what's going on. so, for example, michael,

you're taking away their ability to see when the russians are launching their bombers against the ukrainians or missiles. you're taking away their ability to target those bombers on the ground. you know, the best way to stop a bomber or a missile coming at you is to hit it before it even launches. right. and so what you're seeing right now is, is that donald trump is trying to tip the scales. you know, when he says to the to vladimir zelensky, hey, you don't have the cards. what he's trying to do is take the cards away. and that's just one piece of that. and it has real effects on the battlefield. >> you know, denver, one of the more damning aspects of this for me is, is elon musk and the role that he's allowed to play. last night, he issued what seemed like a thinly veiled threat about shutting starlink off for the ukrainians. he said, quote, my starlink system is the

backbone of the ukrainian army. the their entire front line would collapse if i turned it off. i'm going to repeat it again so everybody can understand with a high degree of clarity. when you say something like that in the position that he's in, and given what we know about his, you know, tech stuff and what he's done, he is every bond villain rolled up into one. because when you have that attitude, right, i'm looking for james bond at this point. right. how do you what do we do? what does that mean. and certainly what does it mean for the ukrainians that we have one individual who has control over the information links that they're going to need? >> well, you know what's interesting? you know, starlink has contracts all over europe, right, michael? so if they break this, what happens to some of their other partners, like, you know, say contracts in poland? the other thing too, if he removes starlink, what happens to things like eutelsat. right. you have french competitors out there or other types of competitors. who's going to fill that void. so now he's got an

issue, right? he has a country like russia that it seems like he's in support of, that has a gdp lower than three us states. think about that. you know, california, texas and florida, california, texas and new york with florida almost as high. so what does he do now? right. so is he going to take starlink away just to make trump happy? and what happens if eutelsat or other companies fill the void? and just as lately as march 4th, eutelsat was in talks with ukraine about providing terminals themselves. so here we go. right. so now i think europe is starting to wake up and say, listen, we can fill some of these technical voids that are happening right now. he can say and he can scream this type of stuff. but even if he loses that ukraine, the ukrainians are not stupid. they're actually brilliant and they're building redundant systems right now. they're in planning, they're looking at laying fiber. all these things are actually happening. so yes, sadly, starlink is the best system out there. but there are competitors and there's a way to jointly combine these communication paths where ukraine, who are internet agnostic, they can actually do some of these operations. so when i saw this, it looked empty. it looks like

messaging that's coming straight from the trump administration to me. >> interesting. you know, amy, that what denver is saying there reminds me or at least gets me thinking about our partners. what what do france and europe as a whole, the uk, what do they do now to step up to, to sort of close those gaps, fill in those gaps that could come about from the intelligence side, the information sharing side. if starlink goes down, or even the intelligence that relationship they have with the us has set itself, you have them saying, hey, we may not share everything we know now with the us, since they seem to be more aligned with putin than us. >> well, absolutely. well, number one, the europeans are going to have to step up. they're going to have to step up with intelligence and also with ammunition, with weapon systems. but beyond that, though, this has real ramifications for

american power around the world, because we are not going to our partners, our allies are looking at us right now and saying, this is not the america that we once knew. this is not the america that we trusted, and we're not going to be able to trust them again. and so, you know, they're not going to share intelligence with us. a lot of what american power around the world is based on is our partnerships. it is our alliances. and donald trump right now is hurting that power. he's hurting it for future generations. and that is also what's so scary here. >> all right, denver riggleman, amy mcgrath, thank you both. i really appreciate your insights. coming up, folks. cutting social security is the third rail of american politics. at least it used to be. but donald trump and elon musk, well, they don't seem to care about that much. martin o'malley is the former commissioner of the social security administration. and he joins me next to talk about the joins me next to talk about the social security system. if you have heart failure

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>> in a speech to congress on tuesday, donald trump said an ambitious goal to balance the federal budget. but as a fox news anchor, maria bartiromo tried to explain to him in an interview this morning, he can't do that without going after entitlements. >> when you look at where the spending is, 76% of the spending going to the mandatory programs, don't you have to really cut into those mandatory programs in order to really make a dent? you say you're going to balance the budget. you can't balance the budget just by d.o.j. cuts. >> you're going to. >> have. >> growth like you've never. >> seen before. >> that's true. yeah. you said that. >> we're going to have growth. i'm not. >> going to touch social security. >> medicare, medicaid. now we're going to get fraud out of there. >> put a pin. >> in that one, folks. yeah, okay. because the congressional budget office ran the numbers, and they found that to balance the budget, republicans will

have to cut from social security and medicare and medicaid that safety net, those benefits. and americans don't want that, especially when it comes to social security, the single largest program in the federal budget. a poll from january found that more than two thirds of all americans think we're not spending enough on social security, and only 6% think we're spending too much. here's the deal. there's a reason it's the third rail of american politics. but that's not stopping republicans from wrapping their hands around it. elon musk has been repeating the line that social security is a ponzi scheme. and in his speech on tuesday, donald trump actually lied about millions of dead people receiving benefits. even the guy trump installed to lead the social security administration has said that that's not true. but it doesn't seem like he has much control over what's going on. the

washington post reported this week that privately, senior staff has been told that doge is running the show and that they will make mistakes. reports are already emerging about long wait times and delays in reviewing disability claims. and soon all of this meddling could mean that people don't get their checks on time. i mean, folks, take a moment. do you really trust elon musk to get you your checks on time? well, the most recent commissioner of the social security administration definitely does not. martin o'malley told cnbc. ultimately, you're going to see this system collapse and an interruption of benefits. i believe you will see that within the next 30 to 90 days. and he added, people should start saving now. joining me now is martin o'malley. he served as the commissioner of the social security administration under president biden. before that, he was

governor of the great state of maryland. it's great to have you at the table, governor. so let's let's it's good to see you, man. so if social security misses payments, it would be the first time in 90, 90 years of its existence that that will have ever happened. what exactly are you seeing that doge is doing that makes you so worried? >> well, do i call you lieutenant governor? chairman? excellency. >> friend. words. >> there are several. there are several things they're doing. michael. there are that. it appears they're doing everything they can to break this agency, to degrade customer service. and these acts are also. and to drive employees out of this agency. keep in mind, you know, the republican house was reducing staffing and cutting social security before the, the,

the doege bros even had driver's licenses. so this agency was serving more and more people every single day because of us baby boomers, with staffing that was reduced to a 50 year low. so the biggest threat to the agency is the way they're driving experienced, knowledgeable employees out of it, including those who are about 30 to 40% retirement eligible that run the it systems. so what we're going to see is more and more intermittent shutdowns of, you know, the processing apps. and also, you know, yesterday, for a time, the portal that allows people to check their my ssa account went down. you're going to see more of that for longer durations. you're already seeing the wait times, the lines all going again in the wrong direction after they were made to go in the right and more timely direction by the end of last year, they're all going in the wrong direction, and then you're going to see all of those things having a cascading

effect. because just because that base of the it system, that old cobol system is old, doesn't mean that it doesn't have to be maintained. and the people that know how to maintain it get this are being paid for an entire year. if they will leave now and not let the door hit their backside on the way out. that's the waste. >> and i see that, you know, as sort of the linchpin to a lot of this. it is not about the functionality of the system. it is about a clearing of the decks. we want these people out. if this system collapse, certainly that's that's going to be a devastating thing. how then do you get things up and running again? i mean, at some point when your cousin, your aunt, your mom, your dad yourself, don't get that check that you need to cover your expenses, whether it's health care,

whether it's other things you may use the, the, your social security payments for, what do people do and how does how do you get the system back in line? >> you know, 40% of seniors living alone over the age of 65, michael, depend entirely on social security. it's the difference between, you know, living under a bridge, living in poverty or living with dignity. i suspect just like after they fired the people that knew the nuclear codes, they're going to realize that they fired some really talented, experienced it people that understand how to get these systems back up and running again, especially if, as i believe they are, if they drive this to a system collapse and an interruption of benefits within the next 90 days, whether those people are willing to come back, how quickly they come back, or how long those benefit interruptions last is anybody's is anybody's guess. because just because these are some of the

only folks in the country that understand the architecture of that system. and of course, what i learned was it's not just about knowing how to write cobol code. it's understanding the architecture and all of the apps and customer service it systems that sit on top of it. so these are talented people. they not only know cobol and the architecture of social security, and how to make sure everybody keeps getting their check on time. they also have options in the private sector to go to other places. so they're creating a mess. it's a mess of their own making. you know, our our fellow marylander, barbara mikulski texted me and said, they're trying to break it so they can privatize it. i think they're trying to break it so they can loot it. they want what's in that social security trust fund for some reason, and they now have these kids and t shirts mucking around up there, you know, going through people's personal data, plugging into systems that they can't even read and understand themselves, which is why they concluded that there was some zombie apocalypse

with tens of millions of people walking around with checks spewing out of their cadaver's pockets. it's a real mess up there, and the guy running it only ran an office of about five people before, but he's doing whatever they ask of him. >> yeah, there we are. and that's it. it's the zombie apocalypse within our social security administration. governor martin o'malley, thank you so much, man. good to see you. >> it's appalling. >> coming up, maga world turns on supreme court justice amy coney barrett. i'll explain why coney barrett. i'll explain why when we known for creating memories. no one wants to be known for cancer, but a treatment can be. keytruda is known to treat cancer. fda-approved for 18 types of cancer, including certain early-stage and advanced cancers. one of those cancers is a kind of bladder and urinary tract cancer called advanced urothelial cancer. keytruda may be used with the medicine enfortumab vedotin in adults

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>> howard. >> thank you again. thank you again. don't forget. thank you again i won't forget. those were trump's words to chief justice john roberts after his address to a joint session of congress on tuesday night. that exchange has raised a lot of valid questions about trump's relationship with the court, given the many favorable rulings they've delivered to him over the years. but there was someone else who caught the eye of trump's allies on social media that night, and that was amy coney barrett, the trump appointed justice who's been a crucial swing vote on this court. maga republicans zeroed in on her expression at the moment trump walked past her, scrutinizing the way she looked at him in a video that went viral. well, that brief interaction contributed to a full on maga meltdown the next morning. justice barrett cast the deciding vote to reject the president's freeze on foreign

funding. in doing so, barrett sided with the court's three liberal justices, as well as john roberts, ruling that the administration must pay usaid contractors what they're owed. imagine that. all of that was apparently quite triggering for trump loyalists and those who follow trump, who love him. right wing activists accused barrett of glaring at trump, saying she looked bitter and should show more admiration. they said she can't be trusted, accusing her of deceiving people to infiltrate the court. and of course, they called her a die hard hire. well, you knew they were going to do that and therefore must be evil. that's just a sampling of the kind of vitriol that's been directed at justice barrett this week, all because she was deemed insufficiently loyal to donald trump. now, folks, needless to

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watch their backs. >> donald trump's maga allies are tearing into justice amy coney barrett for ruling against him in a case involving usaid. both barrett and chief justice john roberts sided with the liberal justices in that case, but trump's online army seemed to single out barrett for just looking at the president the wrong way. at the tuesday at tuesday's joint session of congress. joining us now is neal katyal. he's the former acting solicitor general and an msnbc legal analyst. neal, it was such a priceless moment on so many levels. but you have folks targeting justice barrett in a way that i think is interesting. why not the chief justice as well? i mean, they're labeling her a die hard hire. that's how bad it is. right? so they now she is a die hire and the chief

justice. no, not too much. sad. what's going on here? >> yeah. no, i think you're exactly right, michael. i mean, you know, there are two different republican appointed justices, the chief justice and amy coney barrett, who ruled against trump in the foreign aid case. one is called a die hire and evil and a closet democrat. the other isn't. you know, i call this thinly veiled misogyny, but there's nothing really veiled about it. i think that the project overall here is that these folks are trying to control the law. they're trying to control judges. they want sure things. and that is, i can just tell you so antithetical to what the united states supreme court is all about. i mean, i've had the privilege of arguing over 50 cases there, michael. and the great thing about the court is you don't know how they're going to rule. like, you go up particularly i started at a time when justice kennedy was on the court and you could see him just visibly struggling in every major case about what to do and struggling for exactly the right reasons. he was trying

to listen so hard to both sides with an open mind and say, what's the right view of the law? that's what judging is all about. it's different than politics. you are supposed to have judges appointed by republican presidents who rule against republicans and judges, justices appointed by democratic presidents who do the same thing, ruling against obama and biden and the like. >> so, you know, what was also striking was trump's little quip at the end to the chief justice. thank you, i owe you. and this idea also in reverse that, you know, now, these justices owe him for appointing them. yeah. how much of that plays into this? and what are we to take away from the president of united states saying to the chief justice, thank you for the ruling, i owe you? >> yeah. no, i mean, there's definitely, michael, this sentiment in trump world that amy coney barrett, for example, owes trump for her nomination.

and that's not just wrong. it's exactly what the founders, you know, warned us about. i mean, john adams said that we are a government of laws, not of men. picking up on the massachusetts constitution of 1780. and, you know, justices like barrett, the chief justice, every justice swears an oath to the constitution and not to the man who appointed them to the position. and what's going on here is really pure and simple intimidation of our federal judiciary. and it's what the chief justice just warned about at the end. he writes an end of year report every year in december. his december 2024 report was all about how attempts to intimidate judges are anti-democratic. and unfortunately, we see that playing out and playing out and what michael should have been the easiest case. i mean, these are government contracts that the government has entered into to, you know, for foreign assistance. the contractors have done the work. they should get paid for it. i mean, we have literally medicine and food

stuck in the warehouses right now abroad. and what they want to do is cut off delivery of that. so it would just rot in the warehouses. that is crazy. that's not the united states. >> yeah. and you know, we know trump has been so good at paying his bills in the past. so it's kind of consistent in that regard. but i want to go back to something you said about justice kennedy, because it strikes me that that really is the nub of it, the struggle that a justice has to listen to all sides and to land where they need to land, upholding the constitution and their responsibility. you've got justice roberts having sided with trump on in the immunity decision last year. there's still other big cases around trump's actions, including around firing watchdog officials, etc. is that going to be some sign or indication of how this plays out? and the sort of iou concept both ways with the president, with the with these remaining decisions?

>> i sure hope i hope i owe you is not any part of the lexicon either, you know, sotto voce or explicitly. the chief justice has definitely shown the ability to buck, you know, the president, the president who appointed him. i think, you know, of one of the most courageous votes in, you know, my recent in our lifetimes, when he was the fifth vote to uphold obamacare, right before the 20 2012 election, he had to know that doing so would have saved barack obama's signature initiative and probably guaranteed a second term. and he did it anyway. and, you know, there's a proud tradition of judges doing that. even in that case, there was judge jeffrey sutton on the sixth circuit, who was the number one person that republicans wanted to appoint to the court. they thought of him as a true conservative and a great judge, and he ruled and saved obamacare back on the court of appeals, taking him off the short list for the supreme court. so there's a long history of trying to control the

judiciary, but this is now escalating in really scary ways. >> it is. it is indeed, my friend. and, you know, it's something that we need to watch very carefully. and americans need to be aware of what's happening. neal katyal, thank you. really appreciate you, man. we'll be right back, folks. >> i feel. >> like new. >> sunglasses. >> like a brand new. >> pair of jeans. >> i feel like. >> taking chances. >> i. >> feel alive. >> feel alive. >> brand new. oh. if you have heart failure or chronic kidney disease, farxiga can help you keep living life, because there are places you'd like to be. (♪♪) serious side effects include increased ketones in blood or urine and bacterial infection between the anus and genitals,

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longer. sparks. see if row sparks are right for you at row codeswitch. >> if you're loving jen's new podcast, the blueprint, well, folks, i've got some great news for you. you're going to love this new bonus episode dropping tomorrow, you can scan that qr

code to listen to her conversation with dnc chair ken martin. now scan that code, which is available exclusively to msnbc premium subscribers. >> we can't worry about offending anyone at this moment. we have to throw a punch. we have to take the gloves off right now and truly, truly start defining donald trump and elon musk. everyone should be out there right now in very plain language, off, fighting back, defining these guys. and we have to use subversive tactics to do that as well. some of them we can't have our fingerprints on, frankly, but we got to go out there and be willing to fight dirty at this moment. and listen, i know that might make a few people mad because we need to, you know, it's what michelle obama said when we go, you know, when they go low, we go high. that's that. we can't go high anymore. we got to throw that whole adage out the window. we've got to understand right now, the moment requires us to fight hard right now. this what

we're seeing is not normal. i'd love to see us go back to a day when both parties worked together and tried to find solutions for the american people. that's not the moment we're in. so we can. you know, i'm not going to say i was going to say, but, you know, at the. >> end. >> say what. >> you were. >> going to say. it's a podcast. >> well, this old saying in minnesota, you can wish in one hand and you can in the other, and you can see which one fills up faster. right? the reality is this the we can't go back. we cannot go back to those days right now. >> oh my jen psaki got the dnc chair throwing those punches. oh okay. again, that episode drops tomorrow, folks. but for now, stay right where you are because there's much more news coming up right here on msnbc. >> on this new hour of eamon trump wages war on free speech on college campuses while rebranding a potential