we're seeing is not normal. i'd love to see us go back to a day when both parties worked together and tried to find solutions for the american people. that's not the moment we're in. so we can. you know, i'm not going to say i was going to say, but, you know, at the. >> end. >> say what. >> you were. >> going to say. it's a podcast. >> well, this old saying in minnesota, you can wish in one hand and you can in the other, and you can see which one fills up faster. right? the reality is this the we can't go back. we cannot go back to those days right now. >> oh my jen psaki got the dnc chair throwing those punches. oh okay. again, that episode drops tomorrow, folks. but for now, stay right where you are because there's much more news coming up right here on msnbc. >> on this new hour of eamon trump wages war on free speech on college campuses while rebranding a potential recession as a period of transition. and

his administration tries to purge privilege, mental health and women all from our vocabulary. we'll explain that and more. i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's do it. so when autocrats and fascists or fascist movements look to crack down on free speech and consolidate power in one place, they have historically targeted, of cours, our universities scholar and friend of this show, jason stanley, says authoritarians and would be authoritarians are only too aware that universities are primary sites of critique and dissent. well, last night we saw it play out the department of homeland security and its agents entered a student residential building at columbia university and detained a prominent student and activist named mahmoud khalil. he's a palestinian and was one of the leaders of the gaza solidarity encampments last year. he also has a green card.

the government agents told khalil's lawyer that they were executing a state department order to revoke his visa, his student visa, and there is some new reporting tonight that mahmoud's attorney does not even know where he has been taken. they were first told that he was sent to an ice facility in new jersey, but are now being told he may have been sent as far away as louisiana. and this comes just days after trump, at least one of the times that he had vowed to deport foreign students and imprison so-called agitators, or pro-hamas radical, involved in protests against israel's onslaught on gaza and two canceled $400 million in grants for columbia university. now, let's look back at the political climate that actually brought us here in the fall of 2023. you may recall, protests erupted across universities in america in response to israel's bombardment of gaza following hamas terror attack on october 7th. these protests were largely peaceful and diverse, but they were falsely labeled as

pro-hamas and as widespread attacks on the safety of jewish students, even as significant numbers of jewish students were participating or even leading these protests. and keep in mind, these charges come from republicans and democrats, as well as the mainstream media. the reality is, protesters were trying to prevent what most humanitarian groups are now calling a genocide or ethnic cleansing. so today, donald trump is carrying out a dangerous attack on american free speech and dissent. but he received a lot of bipartisan help to get here. let's bring in my panel for the hour. emma vigeland, co-host of the majority report. john fugelsang, comedian and host of tell me everything with john fugelsang on sirius xm and author of the upcoming book separation of church and hate a sane person's guide to taking back the bible from fundamentalists, fascists, and fleecing frauds. and andrew zimmern, chief chef excuse me, author and goodwill ambassador to the united nations world food program. it's great to have all

of you with us, and i'll start with you and what you make of this crackdown on free speech with the with this very alarming and dangerous arrest of mahmoud khalil, a person who has a permanent residency here, but also a student. >> well, it's deeply disturbing. i mean, i'll start by saying that donald trump and his administration, when it comes to their immigration crackdown, they're reclassifying just people who may not have full documentation when they came over the border as criminals. so it justifies deporting them in mass or detaining them in mass, which is what we are seeing as they call them criminals. and they're applying that same playbook here to a crackdown on dissent on palestine. and frankly, the democrats need to show some mettle and draw a contrast with donald trump here, because, you know, people say sometimes fascism is colonialism turned inward, where the chickens come home to roost. at the end of the day, if the democrats don't stand with where basically a majority of their bases right now, gallup had a

poll that came out, i think, three days ago that showed that 59% of democratic voters believe that they are more sympathetic to palestinians, and now 21% is the number for the israelis, with democratic voters, democratic, democratic voters see what's going on. and so i think to effectively combat trump, democrats really need to take a stand. and doing what kathy hochul is doing here, trying to stifle dissent. it's not the way to go. >> and, john, even, interestingly enough, a side of what your views are on israel and palestine and everything that has happened there, it is safe to say that you can be alarmed by the fact that a student was arrested in a raid by ice agents at the behest of a president, simply for exercising what we have all cherished in this country the right to protest a government policy or demanding divestment, or engaging in in public demonstration. and you've always had the other side of this, the republicans who've tried everything against cancel culture, they've always kind of

paraded themselves as the as the free speech champions. and yet here they are engaging. yes. and now here they are engaging in this complete crackdown on dissent. >> you know, donald trump spent his his first day in office pardoning violent people from a deeply illegal protest. so that's not what this is about. and i think it's, you know, worth pointing out the president does not have the right to stifle campbell campus protests. the president does not have the right to deport someone for free speech. the thing that is more predictable than measles under rfk jr is on campus protests under donald trump. what you're witnessing here is donald trump preemptively warning students, their parents who write the checks, and the boards of trustees of major universities, how he and his administration will make your life very inconvenient if he doesn't like the nature of your protest. that's why they're lying about it so much. so this is not so much about beating up on palestinians even more. and again, we have to point out that just because you oppose the civilian government of israel's

policies, you have nothing against jewish people. if you oppose the civilian government of america, it doesn't mean you hate americans. god knows i don't. this is a lot of donald trump warning people in advance that he doesn't want to see any protests against him, because those are coming. >> yeah. and so to that point, i'm so glad you brought that up. andrew, i'm curious to get your thoughts on where you see this going. some are saying it's the opening salvo, if you will, of further crackdown on dissent. and it's not just about student protests, it's about a segment of the population that is always politically active, because it may start with this specific issue, but then it may expand to other aspects, whether it's climate activists, whether it's black lives matter activists, whether it's, you know, lgbtq activists, you're going down a road in which donald trump, in the first couple of weeks of his presidency, has basically unleashed attacks against the media, against lawyers, against the federal government. and now students. >> and when is he coming? for people like me who are trying to feed the world? you know, i

think both my co-panelists are spot on. this is the type of response we get when we allow fear and threats of our educational institutions to rule the day. this is a setup. historically, dissent has always come from our college campuses. this is something that we're used to in america. it was the turning point in the vietnam war when we saw the shooting at kent state. and what where is this going to go? is the question that i have. i would also add that this president wants to rule by fiat and personal desire in the way of threats and manipulation, not by the rules of law. it's dangerous. it's a rejection of our constitution. to john's point, it's illegal. but that's the point of this administration, right? it's not reform. it's subversion. >> i want to come to a point that you brought up, which was kathy hochul. right. because kathy hochul has had her own issues with these protests, and it's not exactly like the

democrats have kind of been standing up as like, you know, defenders of free speech. kathy hochul here recently at hunter college removed a job posting for a palestinian studies teaching position, saying she wanted to be sure anti-semitic theories would not be taught. it's not like they have a very good track record on this either. >> no, but they should. and i point to what i said earlier about the democratic voters are not aligned with how the leadership is responding here, and i think we can demand more of democrats right now. there was a poll in cnn in february that said that over 70% of democratic voters are unhappy with congressional democrats right now, and how they haven't stood up to trump more. and i think that goes hand in hand with the israel debate here. how can we draw a contrast with donald trump and his authoritarianism? when the republicans talk about free speech? what they mean is, can we say slurs on the internet again? can we feel okay saying, can we celebrate christmas? i mean, really, that's what it is. and then but for, for the democrats and for the left, the

anti-war movement has always been an integral part of social progress, particularly on college campuses as well. so when we're trying to combat trump, drawing a contrast is as important as anything. and i think to bring young people back on board who have been galvanized by this, seeing images of slaughtered children over and over on their phone. i mean, there was a letter written by a 99 physicians, nurses back in october to vice president harris and biden at the time. and they said that at minimum, 118,000 palestinians have been killed. that is a lowball estimate and much higher than the, what, 47,000 that people are still using at this point. this is an untold slaughter. and amnesty international calls it a genocide, as does human rights watch. the democrats have to reckon with how young people have seen the leadership of the party accept this and then move forward in a more positive direction, because they can, because the voters want them to. >> john, there's an interesting development this week with all

of this debate about freedom of speech, and that was the use of ai being used to kind of go through people's social media accounts to try to see who was and who wasn't sympathetic to hamas. and again. >> now, or have you ever been. yeah. >> yeah. no. exactly. and that's exactly what i was going to ask you about. this kind of kind of throws back to the mccarthy era of, of the red scare and just kind of like, again, it's the use of technology, but slipping it in in a moment where people are not necessarily going to be as alarmed by it on this, but if they get away with doing it on this subject matter, they will probably become much more comfortable with using it on a lot more. >> you know, fascism of every culture needs an oppressed minority that it's easy and acceptable to beat up on. yeah, okay. you have to have it. and in the past it's been italians, it's been jews, it's been african-americans. it's been lgbt people right now seems to be undocumented immigrants, trans kids who want to play sports and palestinian humans. those are the groups that it's acceptable to beat up on. a smart democratic messaging would

be to point out that jesus, for those who claim to follow him, commands you to love israelis and palestinians equally. and could that be a place we can start from? but to your excellent point there, starting now, to have this gop meme where they're the party that's anti-war, because joe biden was such a warmonger with israel and a warmonger with with ukraine. and in the case of ukraine, the people who hated us for opposing bush's imperialist war of choice 20 years ago now hate us for opposing putin's imperialist war of choice. it's the same thing. they're not able to criticize vladimir putin for his bloodshed, but they'll criticize joe biden for arming the guys who've been attacked. >> andrew, to that point, the republicans have managed to rebrand themselves. trump is now somehow seen as the man who wants to end wars, and at the same time, they're the free speech champions. as i was saying earlier. and to john's point, it is a very weird, very weird world that we're living in when democrats have ceded that ground to republicans.

>> they have. and i see that really as a lack of leadership at the top. this, you know, the party of the democratic party is one that is a coalition group that does not have anyone steering the ship. and i think there needs to be someone steering the ship and quickly, because the game that the trump administration is, is playing is one that is a, you know, a scatter gun type policy where if they can just keep throwing out dangerous as well as absurdist new executive mandates every single day, the dizzying speed with which that happens will keep us in a stasis and unable to respond to anything real. i would like to say one thing too, about the governor of new york's

coming out. you know, i understand that keeping students safe is a priority. it should be. and hate speech is currently defined in other laws where applicable. but the slipperiest of slopes and what scares me the most is a father of a college aged boy. is that undefined illegalities will assuredly be unevenly applied, as they have been taking down all forms of protest, banning all kinds of teaching that. quote unquote, doesn't fit in with what the white house believes is the natural order of things. and isn't that really the point here? isn't the cruelty and autocratic obsession resulting in a desire to squelch all dissident opinion? the last time i checked, that's a stalinist pillar, not an american one. >> now, you're absolutely right about that. and it is very alarming that it is happening so quickly in this country. everyone stay put. we're going to squeeze in a quick break. on the other side. trump leaves the door open to a recession thanks

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>> but i think it should be great for us. i mean, i think it should be great. >> should americans. >> brace for a recession? >> absolutely not. >> anybody who. >> bets against donald trump. >> it's like the same. >> people who thought donald trump wasn't a winner a year ago. donald trump is a winner. he's going to win for the american people. that's just the way it's going to be. >> there's going to be no recession. >> in. >> america. >> just an absolute full on cult moment there. two very different messages about the economy on the same day. by the way, that was just from today, from both the president, united states and his commerce secretary. clearly, he did not get the secretary of commerce, harry lutnick, did not get the message that. >> save that clip. >> yeah, right. and nobody wants to root for america to get a recession. but you have to just hear the president and see what he's saying, and then have his commerce secretary come out and say something completely different. let me actually play you one more from today. watch

this one. >> are you. >> worried about a recession? >> maria bartiromo. >> asked you, and you kind of hesitated. >> i'll tell you what. of course you hesitate. who knows? all i know is this. we're going to take in hundreds of billions of dollars in tariffs, and we're going to become so rich. you're not going to know where to spend all that money. >> i don't even know what to say or how to begin. i will. save that clip. i'll save that clip. i mean, can you imagine if a democrat said that kind of thing? you know, the outrage that fox business would engage in. but, i mean, i guess let's just start with the tariffs. he seems to have written read one book in his life now, which is some mckinley biography, which he doesn't seem to care about, what happened after that, which was the great depression. but let's just stick with that for a second. he seems to think that tariffs can be enough of a revenue source to offset all of the gutting that they're trying to do, of our social safety net of, you know, social security of medicaid, which, gosh, over 70 million americans are on that health care program. the elon

musk doge stuff. tariffs really do when they're applied in a targeted way. they can be effective, right. if you want to incentivize onshore manufacturing of one particular good. but this broad way that he's applying it would be so devastating for the economy. and that's why those those numbers are responding in that way, because it basically functions as an additional regressive tax. a sales tax burdens people of lower income more because it's a higher proportion of their disposable income. same with middle income families as well. but a tariff, a broad tariffs like this would be a compounding sales tax. the amount that it would harm regular people is just it's astounding. but he feels like basically he's untouchable. yeah. and the one thing they don't want to touch is the idea of raising taxes on the rich, which would offset the things that they're trying to talk. >> about, take care of everything. >> but that is not what they're in this for. they are in this to

gut the administrative state, to enrich themselves. and tariffs is another way to put that on the back of the regular person. >> but the good news is, though, maybe they just don't mean it with the tariffs. and they're lying because they. >> keep changing every other day. and we don't even know like they announced. >> in the stock market. they did it in the beginning of february. they did it in the beginning of march. and they announced they'll do it in the beginning of april. they're signaling to everybody when to buy, when it's really low. and after 24 hours they'll flip again. and this guy i mean, my god, when it comes to tariffs donald trump is like the hollowed out inflatable guy at the car dealership. i mean, who knows. he the flipping never stops. so again, it's really wise to declare economic trade war against our closest allies. and it's beyond what the bushes did. but we don't even know if he means it. that's the problem. they might just be doing all this as more hype. it might be more crypto scams. it might just be that they're doing this to try to cash in on the stock market. >> it's certainly a possibility. and i and it's a very interesting point that you bring up. but there are real world consequences to this, right? i mean, like andrew, you're seeing

and there's reporting now from the ap and others about especially with these like doge cuts, the country is really kind of divided. people are really hurt and aching by people losing their jobs. some family members are, according to the ap, that trump supporters are celebrating the fact that relatives have been fired. and i bring that back to the point about what we just saw from the secretary of the secretary of commerce. it sounds like a cult. when he stands up there and says, don't bet against donald trump. donald trump is going to win. that's not the sound of a rational, sane person whose job is to talk about the economy and the labor market. he's just out there trying to assure the people that donald trump is always going to be right. >> none of it is rational or sane. and i would i the first couple of words that came out of the president's mouth in the very first clip that you that you played, actually has me slack jawed, bringing wealth back to america again. the last time i checked, this was the wealthiest civilization in the history of the world. bar none put a big period at the end of

that sentence. we have to make it more fair and equitable for all americans. but the money that we have is there, you know, the outrage that that i feel just listening to those clips pales in comparison. as a midwesterner living in minnesota to what i'm hearing, seeing around our dinner table, talking to friends when i'm out walking the dog, his no pain, no gain economic message that is part of today's whole series of clips that have been playing out ignores four very, very crucial, crucial pillars. the first one is it ignores the economic hardships of working families, right? the economic suffering for the average american is inevitable and is something that needs to be addressed through policy solutions. it contradicts the government's role in economic stability, the idea

that economic pain is a prerequisite for gain. it just just overlooks the role of government in mitigating economic downturns. and that's because they don't have anybody who can mitigate economic down downturns. they've all either been fired or are no longer in office. >> and he wants people with $5 million to buy visas and to jump to the front of the line. >> it's craziness. it threatens small businesses and local economies, which is where i find most of my outrage in middle america. many people here rely on agricultural manufacturing and service industries. and this economic instability, which is only going to get worse, as john very accurately pointed out on again, off again. the only reason that i can imagine why that's going on is not because they're undecided. it's because there's some other game afoot. but this is going to lead to widespread business closures and job losses. and last is that

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baby: liberty. for years, one supplement claimed it improved memory. but the truth? it can't support those claims. choose neuriva plus — which supports six brain health indicators, including memory, with clinically tested ingredients. it's time to switch to neuriva. seems that governor gavin newsom is moving and not out of his home state of california, but to the center of democratic politics. the governor, who seems to spend every interview denying rumors that he is running for president, just launched a new podcast, and you will not believe who his first guest ever was. far right activist and extremist charlie kirk. newsom is taking a lot of heat for finding common ground with kirk, while throwing one group of people under the bus. >> watch would you. >> say no. >> men. >> and. >> female sports? >> well. >> i think it's an issue of fairness. >> i completely agree with you

on that. >> i revere sports. >> and so the issue of fairness is completely legit. >> the issue of fairness is completely legit. >> so i completely. >> align with. >> you and we've got to own that. >> lots to unpack here, john. first give me your thoughts on him sitting down for this interview. i mean, put aside whether or not you think he's a credible democratic presidential candidate. i think most people certainly see him as one. >> full disclosure i used to work with the governor at at current tv back in the day, so i have a lot of admiration and respect for him. this was the thirstiest most pandering thing i could have seen him do, and i'm very dismayed. charlie kirk despises women. he's an unrepentant racist, a revoltingly fake christian. and if you want to go ahead and begin the process of throwing the left under the bus to pander to the middle, in this case, you're throwing it under a bunch of busses that charlie kirk just paid for to bring a bunch of guys down to beat up cops on january 6th. he paid for the damn busses. this man is a misogynist. he is revoltingly false in his piety. and if gavin newsom decides that he's going to appeal to the middle by beating up on trans athletes because that affects our lives.

i know your life is deeply affected by trans athletes, but to just say, why not just say, you know what, i agree with you on the sports, but do you have to be so vicious in your scapegoating of this powerless minority that never hurt you? but he couldn't do it. >> i that's what i was going to say. i mean, charlie kirk is the guy who said when he gets on a plane, he looks to see if the pilot is black. >> wildly racist. >> and gavin newsom did not challenge him on that. you're saying he's moving to the center? i'm saying charlie kirk is not the center. if you're bringing charlie kirk on for a podcast, you are going to the extreme right in this country. >> or at least be adversarial, right? i mean, i do think that the trans sports issue is a wedge issue by design. and frankly, if we had a broad access to trans affirming care, none of this would be a problem. i don't really think it is either. i mean, fewer than ten ncaa athletes and look at how they focus on folks. and it's because, frankly, they're just trying to gin up hate to distract from what they're doing, which is cutting taxes for the rich and gutting the administrative state. that's it. and i'm so sick of democrats

responding with this populist thing to what polling already says, and thinking that they have no agency over it. this is a far right extremist administration, and they basically have done whatever they wanted, and they still got elected because of this perceived authenticity that trump has. and the fact that he bothers both the republican party and the democratic party, frankly, that's why he overperforms in presidential elections, because low propensity voters turn out just for him and maybe leave the rest of the ballot blank. they don't like the establishment of either party. i think they're they're misguided. but it's why bernie sanders still has this trust with the american public is because he's kind of outside of the establishment of both parties, so. authentic and authentic. newsom is going about it the exact right way, and we do not have to throw one minority group under the bus to win the next election. in fact, i think that this hurts our brand because people go, what do you stand for if you don't stand for trans kids? what do you stand for? if you don't stand to

stand against a guy like charlie kirk? >> andrew gavin newsom seems to think that he can podcast his way out of this problem. it's not an issue of podcasting your way out. it's about policies. and you have a good contrast this week because you had tim walz, who actually went on a podcast and declared his support for universal medicare, excuse me, universal health care. at a time when people are losing their healthcare rights in this country, and medicaid is certainly on the chopping block among the republican's budget. it's a contrast of how two people vying for the highest seat in office are approaching politics. >> that's right. >> and i think the point that was made about, you know, bernie sanders is absolutely spot on. you know, if we want to take back the white house, if we want to actually save our country from the abyss that we're being pushed into, people have to speak their mind and, and it takes real people talking about real issues, you know, whether or not, you know, i well, let me

put it this way. there's lots of, of, you know, i have serious beliefs around social and cultural issues of our time, but talking about most of them takes a back seat to things like our global standing and educational failures and the economy and future proofing food systems and international relations and security and the like. and i think in the run up to the midterms, as a fractured party, as i said before, coalition management is a necessity right now. and to do that, it you don't pander to what the other side would like us to hear or put out a false hand of friendship. in fact, what needs to happen is what, you know, governor walz did what bernie consistently does, which is be authentic, stake out your place, and then we can find consensus after that, assuming that the other side comes at this with a point of view that they genuinely believe in running off to different corners, to debate these issues in little groups as

as the democrats seem to be doing, i think is fine for right now, but we need to find a way to coalesce around these core issues. the gift we are getting, and we're seeing it in the polls, and we will continue to see it. if the current administration keeps going down the road they are on is a massive awakening of 20, 30, 35% of last year's trump voters who could be persuaded to vote blue in two years. if we can offer a viable alternative that makes sense and talk talking about a an issue that so few people you know, identity politics is not going to get us there. i mean, that's assuming we have an election at all. >> and that's. >> a. >> good point. you call yourself the center is identity politics. but i agree with andrew completely. but we got to look at what happened this week in congress where ten democrats i won't shame them. i get it. they're in trump districts. ten democrats voted to censure al green for shaking his cane at a liar and telling the truth to a liar, and then they pulled him

out so the liar could continue. now, these ten democrats voted to censure him, and they're getting some heat. old al green with his cane is going to out fundraise all ten of those democrats because he stood up and was brave. and that's what people want to see right now. so if governor newsom had sat down with charlie kirk, been every bit as pleasant, every bit as deferential, nice and lovely, but called him out for his racism and his lies and his misogyny and the way he wants to beat up a powerless minority. yeah. what he would have had a good podcast that would have been interesting, and he would have inspired people and would have helped kick off his campaign. >> i want to go to a point that andrew made about, like the lessons learned here, because last month, third way, this group organized a gathering for democrats to see kind of what lessons they learned from the previous election politico actually obtained. we're going to put this up on the screen. politico obtained a five page document of proposed solutions to win back working class voters, and it included several references to reducing influence from the far left and actually trying to stay where they were. absolutely no lesson learned from the past election. and i and i get your point. yes, you can argue that donald trump does not have a wide mandate that

this was a kind of razor thin margin of victory, but again, still losing the house, losing the senate and the presidency, and not taking away any lessons for the democrats about their policies. >> absolutely. i mean, firstly, i do think that a lot of blame falls on joe biden for running for reelection again and his inability to really kind of communicate with the public what he was even doing the positive stuff with antitrust and lina khan and going after corporate price gouging the chips act. i mean, frankly, he was just too diminished to really make the case, and he wasn't very vocal in public for people to hear what democrats were actually doing. but i do think it's more than that. i do think that the perception of what the center is, is completely misaligned with the median voter. i mean, it's you just need to listen to a podcast and hear like, oh, i support medicare for all. and this podcast host says, but also, i have this right wing view about guns or something like that. that's really more of what the median voter is. and tim walz is doing the exact right thing here talking about

universal health care. we saw how the public responded to the killing of the united health care ceo. there's a lot of rage and pain in this country right now. we just hit a record in terms of credit card debt. there is a cost of living crisis that the traditional economic metrics aren't necessarily picking up on. housing is overly commodified. rent is through the roof, people are really hurting. and if we don't respond to that as a party, i mean, leaving that to the republicans who just want to deregulate and make your life much worse and enrich people, that's just complete political malpractice. >> president in history. yes, exactly. >> and yet somehow he could not convince. >> people union scab with working people. it's not just the democratic party. america's got a people problem to work out. >> well, we got to we got to work with the people we have. right. so we can't change the people overnight. >> all right. we're going to take a quick break when we come back. the cdc is investigating a widely debunked link between vaccines and autism, and they're doing it in the middle of a doing it in the middle of a measles outbreak. gum problems could be the start of a domino effect

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>> the cdc is now ignoring decades of scientific research to look into debunked links between vaccines and autism. i can't say that i am surprised president trump and hhs secretary rfk jr have both repeatedly peddled this myth, but it comes during a growing measles outbreak that requires attention and resources by our government. just hours ago, a positive case of measles was reported in a maryland resident who traveled internationally. i want to get your thoughts on this. let me play for you a clip from donald trump speaking about it this weekend in his joint address to congress. watch. >> not long ago. and you can't even believe these numbers. >> 1 in. >> 10,000 children had autism, 1 in. >> 10,000. >> and now it's 1 in 36.

>> there's something wrong. 1 in 36. >> think of that. so we're going to find out what. >> it is. and there's. >> nobody better than bobby. >> and all of. >> the. >> people that are working with you. you have the best to figure out what. >> is going on. >> the strategy is to cast enough doubt to make americans believe that's the case. and you throw out these numbers, you just kind of raise it. i'm just asking a question. we're going to find out what's going on, what's going on. and yet we see the result is that people will not take vaccines. and measles, which we thought we had eradicated, is slowly coming back. >> it's a war on public health, and it really is very scary to see this kind of conspiracism being peddled. right. you know, in the joint address where trump was addressing congress there. you know, i do think that what rfk jr and trump are exploiting and by the way, thimerosal was taken out of vaccines in 2001, which was what rfk jr was claiming could have been causing

the increase in the autism diagnoses. it didn't bear out. it didn't have an effect. so this has already been settled. but they're continuing to peddle this because they are selling this state of conspiracism, where if the base is constantly whipped up in conspiracies that don't actually challenge power, there can be conspiracies that are legitimate, but the ones that they engage in are just things that make people paranoid and not actually challenging power, or capitalism or any of the stuff that's actually oppressing us. what i find so disturbing about rfk jr is that he's exploiting an existing anxiety that the public has in relationship with health care, where he offers them snake oil or supplements, or buy this from my website. i mean, a lot of podcasters. rogan engages in this too, with, with, you know, the stuff that they're selling to people. people don't feel empowered over their health care. medical bankruptcy is the leading cause of bankruptcy in this country. you know, we have tens of millions of people who are uninsured or are just a paycheck away from being ruined.

if they have a medical emergency. that is what he's exploiting. the anxiety that people feel in relationship to health care, which is driven by by our for profit health care system that badly needs to be broken up. >> it's also exploiting ignorance and ignorance and cruelty. >> to your point, i mean this the question of autism and measles, autism being caused by vaccines goes back. in fact, all the way to 1998 study. just to be clear, that was ultimately retracted. that study the author of that study, he was barred from practicing medicine in britain, found guilty of professional misconduct. >> on it. man. >> exactly right. and yet, here they are, as i said, exploiting this concern. we have a public health crisis in this country. >> worse than that, because they're saying that there's something wrong with people with autism. they're saying if you have autism, you are broken, you are damaged. something went wrong in your development, and it's caused by this. it's otherizing neurodivergent people. and that's the last thing. it is completely ableist. neurodivergent people have to deal with so much of this crap. and it was a lie. what? comb over, caligula said in the state

of the kremlin address. it was never 1 in 10,000. we can call that a prevarication or a whopper. it was a lie. and he's pulling the same lie now he pulled during covid. it's not that there are more cases, it's that there are more diagnoses. that's why the numbers have gone up. and there's plenty of folks we grew up with who were never diagnosed on the spectrum as kids, but later in adulthood got the answer to their questions when they finally realized they were on the spectrum there. so neurodivergent americans are a growing group. it's going to be one of the next big civil rights struggles. and this whole thing is just beating up on another minority. >> andrew, one of the things that you know, rfk does, and it's certainly something you're very aware of, it's exploiting this concern that we have about our food supply in this country. right. people come out and talk about red dyes and talk about our food is not nutritious. they see people overweight. they see people having a craze for diets. and they say our country is not healthy. and he comes out and he'll say, it's our food supply. and then suddenly you want to see you see a movement of people

wanting to have everything from raw milk to banning foods to all kinds of aspects of it. and they just peddle in this misinformation, whether it's joe rogan and other podcasters out there trying to sell supplements. talk to us a little bit about that. as somebody who works in the food, how there is a legitimate concern. but what they do is exploit that concern to advance more conspiracy theories and hawk products. >> they do. and i think in, in general, way before we dip down to a little more granular level is that when you engage in government by executive fiat and misdirection and, and play to these, these horrific tropes, i'm the father of a neurodivergent child. so this this is a very personal issue for me. it heightens that atmosphere of fear. and it only hurts the people who are being talked about. right. the people who are in the crosshairs of

this as as john pointed out, that has horrific implications for our future. and it's done with food as well. i mean, the fact of the matter is this we have plenty of food in america to feed every single human being here. we can statistically eliminate childhood hunger. in america, the cost is $17 billion. this has been a consistent number. economists on the right and left have looked at this for decades. it trickles up a bit every year, as costs do. but the fact of the matter is, is that it is approaching a genocidal situation. i'm talking about hunger in america because we have the answers. we have the skill to do it. we have the food to do it. we don't have the political will to do it, and it disproportionately affects people of color and women. what is even scarier to me about all of these horrific tropes is this, hey, we have, you know, it's that america first ism that

donald trump is also expert in peddling and that makes our world and our standing in the world less safe. but it also makes you and i less safe. when we dismantle usaid and take down monitoring systems focused on spotting food crises like famine before they turn into famine, that is dangerous for us that that creates a civil war and unrest in other parts of the world where we're finally just beginning to claw our way back into some kind of evenhanded dialog where we could actually make a change. i'm talking specifically about south central africa. i do a lot of work in zambia for the united nations world food program, and stabilizing zambia is so good for america, and i guarantee you i'm in. the next week i open up an email and we're going to find all of that funding gone to. it's a very dangerous game. we're playing by othering anyone

today. it's kids with autism. tomorrow it's the hungry in america and the hungry around the world. >> yeah, we are in an interconnected world. this has a ripple effect on everything, whether we do it here at home or abroad. emma vigeland, john fugelsang, andrew zimmern, thank you so much. greatly appreciate having you throughout the hour. thank you so much. up next, the words the trump administration is trying to wipe out of existence. >> work, play. blank relief, work, play blank relief. >> the only 3 in 1. >> extended relief formula for dry eyes. >> blink. >> the first time i experienced vertigo, the room was spinning like i was in a clothes dryer. then i started taking lipo balance support. its ingredients are clinically shown to help reduce dizziness and spinning. take back control with lipo flavonoid. >> i love. >> rise mushroom coffee and not

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strong words from our vice president about free speech and free expression. jd vance posted, shutting down free speech will destroy our civilization, and he shared this clip of himself on fox news. >> we have to ask. ourselves the questions. >> as leaders, are we willing to defend people even if we disagree with what. >> they say? >> if you're. >> not. >> willing to do that, i don't think you're fit to lead europe. >> or the. >> united states of america. >> if you're. >> meanwhile, the trump administration is actively trying to purge the federal government of so-called woke initiatives. and now the new york times is reporting that government agencies have flagged hundreds of words to limit or avoid. some of them are no surprise based on this administration. you know, words like die or bipoc, antiracism and latinx. but look at some of the other words being removed from government memos and websites. identifiers like native american black women and

seemingly random words like expression at risk, political and even mental health and sex. these phrases could be casualties due to a loose association to left wing policies or identity politics, if you will. but now, for an administration that likes to pretend to be champions of free speech, they sure like banning words, especially words that speak to the existence of americans who are not the same race, gender, or background as them. or they have a different life experience than them. the language of social justice or wokeness is an attempt to give voice to marginalized groups in this country. and look, sometimes it can feel dogmatic or a little silly. but when you look at the list of words that trump's language police are now trying to purge, remember this. the only thing sillier than wokeness is anti wokeness. thank you for making time for us. make

sure to catch simon back here on msnbc saturdays and sundays at 7 p.m. eastern. you can find us on blue sky and instagram at msnbc. plus, you can listen to every episode of this show as a podcast. just scan the qr code on your screen to listen. until we meet again, i'm ayman we meet again, i'm ayman mohyeldin in new york. choose advil liqui-gels for faster, stronger and longer-lasting relief than tylenol rapid release gels. because advil targets pain at the source of inflammation. so for faster pain relief, advil the pain away. baby: liberty! mom: liberty mutual is all she talks about since we saved hundreds by bundling our home and auto insurance. biberty: it's pronounced "biberty." baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: nice try, kid. only pay for what you need ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: liberty. day energy and improved focus. now try neil drips.

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