put it this way. if the message was to be populist, the mission is to favor the plutocrats. we're seeing elon musk expand his footprint with his starlink in the federal government since he got a government position, which, you know, would have been people would have been screaming, holy hell about the conflict of interest there in past years. >> and certainly we have been pointing out those conflicts of interest, but it's not a deterrent within the white house, at least not yet. nbc's jonathan allen, as always. thank you, my friend. >> thanks, ali. >> and that was way too early for this monday morning. morning joe starts right now. >> marco, thank you. >> so much. >> for coming. >> i know. >> you're under a. >> lot of. >> stress, but i can't have you fighting with elon, okay? i need you to be my. good little marco. >> mr. trump. >> if you think i'm going to stand. >> here and let you call me that, you're right. what i don't. >> accept is. >> elon having total. >> access to our government. >> planes are. >> crashing, and he keeps.

>> trying to fire air traffic controllers. >> well. >> elon knows. >> a lot. >> about air. >> travel, okay? he runs spacex, which is doing. >> incredible things in terms of explosions. and with regard to rocket debris. look, i can't have you two. >> at each other's throats, okay? >> after all, i have a perfect record. >> everyone who's ever worked for me. >> has left on. >> good terms, and. >> then gone on to write a book called the man who ruined everything. so you two need to start acting like. >> mature adults. okay, so. >> let's begin with. >> marco polo. >> now. >> eli, i'm trying to talk to marco polo. so. >> headlines from the meeting. >> one america's. >> doing bad guy now. two. >> marco. >> get your budget under control. and three. elon. >> stay in your lane. you're not the boss. but i paid. >> you $300 million. >> and that's why you're the boss.

>> so that was saturday night live, poking fun at the reported. clash between elon musk and secretary of state marco rubio over the sweeping doge cuts. we'll dive into that explosive meeting. and whether president trump. >> is starting to rein. >> musk in. plus. >> hours from now. >> ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy is set to meet. with the saudi crown. >> prince in. >> jeddah, a day ahead of critical peace talks between. >> the u.s. and. ukrainian officials. nbc's keir simmons is live. >> in saudi arabia. >> with a preview. >> of how things will. play out. good morning and. >> welcome to morning joe. it is monday, march 10th with us. >> we have. >> the co-host of our fourth. >> hour, jonathan lemire. he's a. >> contributing writer at the. >> atlantic covering the. >> white house and national politics, u.s. special correspondent for bbc. >> news and. >> the host of. >> the. >> rest is politics podcast. katty kay, columnist and. >> associate editor. for the washington post. david ignatius

is with us and. >> staff writer. >> for the atlantic. >> frank ford joins us as well. >> good to have. >> you all. >> and welcome back from the other. >> side of the world. >> thank you. yes. >> quite a trip. we're back. >> we have. >> great stories to tell. oh, remarkable. >> we have a lot to show later on in. >> the show. >> okay. >> we'll do that later on in. >> the show. >> summit. >> what? >> so i just really quickly. >> the front front. >> pages of the papers today, especially. >> the wall. >> street journal, which. >> is obviously the. >> official voice of. >> of, of the. >> business community. their headline is wary investors play defense and switch to dividend stocks rattled by the threat. >> of trade. >> restrictions and a slowing economy. is the lead investors are playing, are turning to a classic defensive play. and then. >> if you look at the top of. >> business and finance this morning, starting out the week, markets wake up to new reality. and james mcintosh writes, talks about problems with stocks. tesla. some stocks are falls are

extraordinary. tesla is down 45% from its high in mid-december. talks about the big tech firms and the. russell 2000 index of smaller companies were down more than 10%. both are lower than they were on election day. the s&p 500 is below where it stood on november 5th, and the dollar has dropped sharply. just a lot of economic concerns. and of course, mika this weekend, of course washington buzzing about the question donald trump didn't answer. >> yeah. >> well, he isn't ruling. >> out the possibility that the united. >> states could. head into. >> a. >> recession this year. as his economic policies. cause uncertainty on wall street. >> take a listen. >> are you expecting a recession this year? >> i hate to predict things like that. there is a period of transition.

>> because what we're doing is very big. we're bringing wealth back to america. that's a big thing. and there are always. periods of it. >> takes a little. >> time. >> it takes a little time, but. >> i don't i think it should be great for us. i mean, i think it should. >> be great. >> so as joe showed the. front page of the wall street. >> journal this. >> morning. >> reports on. >> how investors. rattled by the threat of. >> trade restrictions. >> and a slowing. >> economy, are now turning to a class of defensive play. dividend stocks. and with americans remaining concerned. about inflation. >> and. the looming. >> threat of tariffs, consumer confidence. >> fell sharply last month, the largest one month drop. >> since 2021. meanwhile, layoffs among u.s. employers in february were. up 245% from the month prior and. >> were. at their highest. >> level in. nearly five years. this, as cnbc points.

>> out, that for seven straight weeks since. >> elon musk went to. washington to. >> join the trump administration, shares in his automaker have declined. >> it's the longest. such losing streak. >> for tesla. >> in its 15 years as. >> a public company. >> i mean, i just have to check the numbers again. david ignatius tesla, down 45% from its high in mid-december, when, of course, the stock shot up. but but it is fascinating that something that we've all been talking about since the electio, that we have a strong economy, it's the envy of the world. but we have to be careful. and specifically that the incoming administration has to be careful with talk of. tariffs and also instability. and you just you just look at the numbers and you see how stocks have been going up and down and, and, and how erratically things are going. and now this weekend, even president trump not willing to suggest that his policies might

not drive this country into a recession. talk about the impact. obviously, we've seen consumer confidence down. we saw also last week reports that that that people are failing to make payments on their, their, their automobiles, on those loans at least a decade high, a decade long high. talk about it's impacting us here and also around the world. >> so. >> joe. >> i think. investors are reckoning. >> with all. >> the uncertainties. >> that. >> are part of. >> trump's program. >> we've had a frantic six weeks. big changes announced. every day. >> i think wall. >> street's beginning. >> to wonder just where this leads. >> the tariff wars in particular, seem. >> to many. >> investors that i. talked to. >> to be potentially. >> counterproductive, inflationary. >> the adjustment to the. manufacturing economy. >> that trump seems. >> to want. >> could take many, many years. and wall street's worried about

that process. back in. >> january, when i was at the davos. >> world economic forum. >> i remember. >> hearing from several investors, financial markets then were priced to perfection. plus a couple people told me, so when you're at perfection, plus. >> there's a lot of room. >> to. >> slide down. >> and we're. >> we're seeing that now. and it's. interesting that trump. rather than making. >> the usual blandishments about everything's fine. >> don't worry. >> is saying, yeah. recession may be ahead. >> i can't rule. >> that out. >> he made a very interesting comment. yesterday that i did pay attention to where he said, china works on. >> a. 100 year. >> cycle of planning, and the united states. >> goes quarter to quarter. something i've heard. >> from corporate. ceos for. >> for years. >> and i think he's right about that. i mean, that's not to. endorse the policies, but we do tend to get so. >> caught up. >> in these short term movements that. >> we. >> forget about what would be good for the long run in the country.

>> but in any. >> event. >> wall street's got the jitters today. >> yeah. >> donald trump clearly. >> trying. >> to do. >> something very big. >> to the american economy. basically bring. >> it onshore. >> almost all manufacturing. >> make it. >> a. much more. >> closed off economy. >> that's the kind of thing. >> that's the. >> kind of revolution. >> in an economy. >> that takes time. >> and i guess he's getting frustrated. >> with already. >> within 6 or. >> 7 weeks, starting to see the headlines. >> in the wall. >> street journal. >> in the financial. >> times, in. >> the. >> economist magazine this. >> week. >> saying that. >> he could. >> be. >> about to tip the. >> american economy. >> into recession. >> what i'm hearing. >> from people on wall. >> street. >> mika and joe. >> is that this was not necessary. >> the economy. >> was going along fine. >> but i. guess if you're. >> trying to fundamentally. >> overhaul the. >> american economy to. >> make it. >> much more domestic production, a. >> domestic market, then. you're going to have. >> to have those disruptions. and that is the price you're going to pay. and he's just going to have to hope he. >> can do it. >> quickly enough, which. >> i think. >> is why we're seeing so much. >> speed now that by the. >> time it comes. >> to the election. >> in 2028. >> voters have forgiven his party.

>> if not. >> him running. >> again. >> right. and by the way, both both. >> are exactly right. >> i mean, this is this is a transition. and if you're going to bring all of these jobs back onshore, you know, it took. >> 30 years, 40. >> years of globalization to spread it out. it's going to take more than a year or two to bring it back. and they're going to be costs. but as. a great economist, dave chappelle. >> said. >> and i, i think he may have gone like john maynard keynes to king's college in cambridge. he said, do we really want to buy $9,000 iphones? probably not. >> right. there's that. as the trump. administration continues. >> efforts to. >> scale back the federal. >> workforce. >> we've learned employees within the department. >> of health and. >> human services have been offered. voluntary buyouts. >> to resign from their jobs. now. >> according to an administration official, each of the 80,000 employees.

>> at the. department was sent. >> an unsigned email on friday, offering. >> them as much as $25,000 to resign from their jobs. by 5 p.m. this friday. >> march 14th. >> the offer comes just days after president. >> trump told his. cabinet secretaries to. >> make cuts. >> to their departments, clarifying. >> that. >> they, not. elon musk. >> or doge. are in. >> charge of making. >> staffing decisions. how fascinating that this happened over the weekend. this happened. >> and here. >> you have a department doing it again instead of elon musk. that's a pretty dramatic change. >> that is. >> a shift. except maybe there's a little bit of. >> confusion now. for people who are getting different messages. and we're now learning that there are new details on that contentious meeting of. >> cabinet secretaries. >> two people familiar. >> with the exchanges told nbc news. some of the cabinet. secretaries challenged elon musk. >> over. >> doj's approach to cuts in

their department, specifically, secretary of state marco rubio and transportation. >> secretary sean duffy, both pushing. >> back on musk for firing their employees without any consideration as to whether letting them go was a good idea in terms of maintaining quality and. critical staff. the meeting was. >> a potential. >> turning point after the frenetic first weeks of mr. trump's second term. it yielded the first significant indication that mr. trump was willing to put some limits on mr. musk, whose efforts have. >> become the subject of several lawsuits. >> and prompted concerns. >> from republican. >> lawmakers. >> of. >> some of whom have complained. >> directly to the president. >> a spokesperson for the state department did not respond to a. >> request for comment. >> from nbc news, while a white house official said there was no complaining and. >> called the. >> meeting an open and positive discussion. on friday. >> nbc's gabe. gutierrez asked

the president about the. >> reported clash. >> mr. president, since you last spoke about it yesterday. >> some details have come out. >> about your cabinet. >> meeting with. >> elon musk and some. >> clashes potentially between secretary rubio and secretary. no clash, i. >> was there. you're just a troublemaker. and you're not supposed to be. asking that question because we're talking about the world cup. but elon gets along great with marco. >> and they're both. >> doing a fantastic job. there is no clash. >> mr. president. >> who bottom. >> line, who are you with? who are. >> you with? nbc. no wonder. nbc who has more authority, elon. >> musk or your cabinet secretaries. >> any other questions? they're both. great guys. and by the way, they both get along fantastically well. marco has done unbelievably as secretary of state. and elon is a very unique guy who's done a fantastic job. >> i like talking, i like talking about the world cup. i mean, make no mistake, it's coming to the united states. i'm very excited about it. but reporters don't have to just talk about the world cup. so

gabe gutierrez asking the right questions there for nbc. >> yeah. >> so, so dalmiya said jonathan swan and maggie haberman came up with this just explosive reporting a couple of days ago, which nbc confirmed. but it wasn't like it wasn't all kind of, you know, smiles and laughs and daffodils inside that meeting you had marco at one point, secretary of state at one point saying to elon, oh, okay. so the 1500 people that have already taken early retirement, would you like me to hire them back, elon, so you can fire them for show? and then you had sean duffy, according again, to this extraordinary reporting by jonathan swan and maggie haberman, you had sean duffy going, hey, we got planes crashing and your people are trying to fire air traffic controllers. and elon musk

retorted, name one person that got fired. he goes and duffy responds. the secretary of the treasury of transportation responds, you i can't because i. stopped your people from firing them while planes were crashing. so this was, this was this was not a happy meeting. it wasn't a happy exchange, but it was as swan and haberman reported, it was quite possibly a turning point where donald trump is saying, okay, i selected you as cabinet secretaries. you all make the decisions. and elon, you can offer guidance and we'll be glad to listen to your guidance. and then they will make the final decision. so you've written a piece asking whether d.o.j. is losing steam. what have you found out over the weekend since this explosive meeting? >> yeah. >> so there are a few things.

first of. >> all. >> a lot of damage. >> control from the. >> white house after that meeting. >> you just. >> saw president trump there in the oval office talking about it. secretary rubio. >> and. >> elon musk had. >> dinner at. >> mar a lago. over the weekend. we saw trump return to washington last night. with elon musk on air force one. he also defended the two of them on truth social, trying to downplay or downplay this clash. >> but as i reported. >> this is this was. >> coming weeks. >> in the making. first of all, president trump had really. soured on. >> some. >> of. the bad headlines. really. we know how much he pays attention to the media coverage of this, that dating all the way back from that moment. we've discussed on this show when jesse watters on. fox news sort of almost very emotionally said, hey, be more. >> careful with. >> these cuts. >> talking about. >> a friend. >> of. >> his who was. >> going to. be eliminated from the. >> pentagon. >> a veteran. >> saying. this needs to change how we're approaching this. other cabinet secretaries for days, for weeks now. >> have complained. >> to the white house and to their own staff, saying musk is disturbing our power. >> they should be. >> our decisions on hirings and firings. not saying. >> they're. not going. >> to agree with doj's

recommendations, not saying they don't agree with the need to reduce the workforce and in some cases dramatically so. but they wanted to have the final say on that, not musk. >> and i'm. >> told white house. officials are seeing these legal challenges, and they've. >> been on. >> the losing end of some. >> of. >> them, in. >> part because. >> there's questions about whether musk. >> has the authority. >> in doge. musk, of course, a special government employee. >> whether he actually. has the ability. >> to. >> fire these staff workers. so, franklin. >> foer, there's some thought. >> here that by empowering the. cabinet secretaries to be the final say, that might. >> actually help. >> them get this through the courts more effectively. >> eliminate these these positions. >> you know. >> musk certainly not. >> going anywhere. >> people in trump's orbit stressed. >> to me all weekend. >> long that he is still a major player. but it does seem like this is the first time he's had his wings. >> clipped a little. >> you know, as we enter this next phase. >> of doge. >> right. >> so if the kind of master narrative of the first couple of weeks of the trump administration has been the unimpeded power of elon musk,

well, then we do have this evidence that. >> he's he's. >> receiving some. >> sort of backlash, some sort of pushback. but i think the. fundamental trend still continues, which is that doge. has created an ethos for the entire. federal government that. one of the underlying. pillars of the doge strategy is to create a sense of fear and anxiety among federal workers, to drive them out on their own volition. and i think that we're only beginning to see that happening. >> when, you know. >> in. >> washington, this is a local story. and like jesse watters, i mean, i think all of us at the table here keep running into people in the federal government who are pondering leaving the federal government. and when i look at these examples of the very good people i know in the government, whether they are at the va doing some sort of very basic medical work, or they're at other agencies where they're regulating financial markets. the stunning exodus of

competence. >> and capacity. >> is only just beginning. >> it only is. and again, i want to go back to mika really quickly. another question. again, you look wall street journal this morning talking about tesla down 45% from its highs. tesla has always been known as a stock that that overperforms and partly it overperforms because elon musk's you know, the market viewing elon musk as as some you know, entrepreneurial godlike character every day he's in the white house. every day he fires people who are responsible for nuclear safety or tries to fire people who are responsible for air safety, or people who are responsible for stopping the bird flu from, i mean, you know, chain saws on stage at, at, at, at cpac while. you have even fox

news hosts complaining about all the veterans who were who've served this country honorably for decades, getting fired and then firing him without any rhyme or reason, you know, stock goes down 45%. and again, you know, questions are starting to be raised. like, when is he? every day he's in the government. you know what? what's happening to his company. so i am i am curious how long market forces are going to be pushing and pressuring him, and how long he can afford to actually stay there. i know he's still the world's richest man, but again, tesla drives that fortune. it's down 45% since mid december. so that's a fascinating question. and one other just just side note, there's been violence at at tesla dealerships, at tesla charging stations. it's inexcusable. and it's just got to stop. >> no i mean and the.

>> reaction by. >> democrats, what they can show is story after story of i voted for donald trump and then he fired me. i'm a vet, i voted for. donald trump, and i got fired. >> that's really. becoming the result of a lot. >> of people who. >> work for the federal. >> government or who are. >> vets. >> and then. >> find themselves. >> voting for someone who causes the end. >> of their. >> careers as they know it and their livelihood. >> and that's the and as jonathan, as jonathan said, donald trump is seeing these headlines and he's seeing the chaos and it's they're not good headlines. and so that's why you have cabinet secretaries that actually are put in charge of it. and they actually have a process for going through this. it does hold up more in the courts. and also it's not so indiscriminate. so you're not firing people that keep planes in the air. you're not firing people that keep our nuclear stockpile safe. you're not firing people that are trying to stop the next. >> they didn't think you had to

worry about this stuff. >> let's take a look at some of. >> the other stories making headlines this morning. >> canada has. >> picked a new prime minister, the governing liberal liberal party elected former central banker mark carney yesterday. carney won in. >> a landslide. with nearly. >> 90% of the vote. he will replace prime minister justin trudeau, who announced his resignation in january. trudeau will remain in power until carney is sworn in once in office. carney is expected to call for a federal election, where he. will face the leader of the conservative party. >> boy, you talk about a. >> backlash against what's been happening between the united states and canada. the conservative party up there was 20 points ahead, 20 points ahead when donald trump was elected. that's now been cut. and this is going to be a close race. >> so israel has cut off. >> the electricity supply. >> to gaza. >> in an effort to pressure hamas to agree to extending the first phase of the ceasefire.

the move impacts the water treatment plant in the enclave. it comes a week. after officials halted the entry of aid and goods into gaza. hamas is now calling the. tactic a, quote, starvation policy. meanwhile, israeli negotiators are set to head to qatar today to. discuss the ceasefire. hamas is pushing to begin phase two, which is supposed to bring an end to the war. but israel wants a temporary truce to secure the release of more hostages. and a memo obtained by the washington post shows the army corps of engineers knew that water released from. california reservoirs at president donald trump's direction was unlikely to reach the southern part of the state. the president issued the directive back in january in the wake of the l.a. wildfires. army officials rushed to execute the plan, even while privately acknowledging the water would

never. >> get that far. >> south without coordination with state and federal agencies. >> and still ahead on morning joe, we're going to get a live report from saudi arabia, where u.s. and ukrainian officials are set to meet to discuss a peace deal with russia. >> plus, president trump. >> is. >> offering to negotiate a new nuclear weapons agreement with iran will play for you. those comments, as the president suggests, there may be an armed conflict if a deal isn't reached soon. also ahead, new york times. >> columnist. >> maureen dowd with a special guest. >> maureen doesn't does doesn't do much tv. we're very excited. >> give us a look at her new book. >> entitled notorious. >> portraits of stars from hollywood culture, fashion and tech. you're watching morning joe. we're back in 90s. >> so i can take the steak home. yeah. and as many butterfly. >> shrimp as. >> i want. cake. >> you can. >> take home everything. >> ice cream. >> machine. everything. dessert

bar. everything. fork. everything. that guy's had everything. >> careful. >> or it's going. >> to. >> be broccoli. >> everything. >> no, thanks. i'm good. hi, grandma. i played baseball today. oh. that's great. >> what position did. >> you play? first base. >> that's what grandpa. used to play when our hearing wouldn't allow. >> us to use a. >> regular phone. it made us feel isolated. >> it became. >> difficult to communicate with our friends and family. >> clear captions was. >> an easy solution for us. >> clear captions. >> provides captions. >> on a phone, like captioning on your tv so. >> you. >> can see what the caller. >> is saying. live as they say. >> it, making it easy to understand and respond immediately. >> there is. >> no insurance. >> or medicare required. clear caption service is. >> provided at. no cost to you through. >> a federally funded program. we deliver, install and train you on how to use your phone. >> all at. no cost. >> to you. >> give your loved ones the independence and. connection they deserve. >> call now to. >> see. >> if you qualify. >> to get a clear captions phone. >> at.

>> no cost. >> to you. >> call 1-800-714-2088. that's 1-800-714-2088. >> don't you. want some more? cause i can. >> feel your love. >> i can feel your love. >> this time. >> very exposing. >> secretary of state marco rubio is in the saudi arabian port city of jeddah today, where he will meet with the saudi crown prince ahead of peace talks tomorrow between u.s. and ukrainian officials. ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy is set to meet later today with the crown prince in the capital of riyadh. it is unclear if zelenskyy will attend the peace discussions tomorrow, aimed at ending the years long war with russia. nbc news reports that president trump has made clear that a minerals deal with kyiv won't be enough to restart u.s.

aid and intelligence sharing, according to an administration official and another u.s. official. trump wants to see a change in zelensky's attitude toward peace talks, including possible territorial concessions, movement toward elections and even potentially, zelensky stepping down. meanwhile, president trump says he still believes russia wants to end the war in ukraine. speaking to reporters in the oval office on friday, the president seemed to defend russia's intense bombing of ukraine and said he believes putin does want peace. president putin is bombing ukraine. >> do you still believe him when he tells. you that he wants peace? >> yeah, no, i believe. >> him, i believe him. >> i think we're doing very well with russia, but. >> right. >> now they're bombing the hell out of ukraine and ukraine. i'm i'm finding it more difficult, frankly, to deal with ukraine. and they don't have the cards.

they don't have the cards. as you know, we're meeting in saudi arabia on sometime next week. >> early. >> and we're talking. but i find that in terms of getting a final settlement, it may be easier dealing with russia, which is surprising because they have all the cards. i mean. >> and they're bombing the. hell out. >> of them right now. >> let's let's bring in nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons. he's live from keir first. first of all, your reaction based on your reporting on donald trump, why he keeps saying russia is easier to deal with. and the ukrainians. that's first. secondly, what are you hearing officials expect to happen today. >> well, the trump administration. hasn't really. >> begun dealing with the russians honestly yet. >> i mean. >> they've had that meeting. there's been that phone call. and you can argue, by the way, joe, that we keep. >> talking about.

>> kind of getting around the table in negotiations. negotiations are happening right now, but the. >> negotiations. >> really, from the trump administration perspective, has been focused on ukraine. of course. now, president zelenskyy, just just how much of this is a work in progress? >> here's an example. >> you mentioned president zelenskyy coming to riyadh. he's coming here to jeddah now. to see the crown prince, mohammed bin salman. >> who is clearly trying to. >> or is playing the role of a mediator. he brought the us and russia together in riyadh last month and now here with zelenskyy and then the ukrainian delegation meeting with waltz and rubio and the envoy steve witkoff, all flying in today for that meeting to begin here tomorrow. so that, i mean, these meetings in these coming. >> days are crucial. >> i almost want to say life or death for ukraine. that's probably putting it too strongly, but not too strongly, because ultimately, if these talks go badly, then it's you're going to expect more pressure on the ukrainians. in terms of your

question, joe, i mean, as you know, we were. >> in russia. >> last week. we managed to make it to. >> the. >> kursk region. i can. >> that area, that area. >> where a small part. >> of. >> it. which now is still held by the ukrainians. we saw a lot of military there. russian military were. >> on the russian side. are there. is there. >> are battles, i mean intense battles taking place. there's video of russians making their way through abandoned gas pipes to try and get to the ukrainians, to fight of drone strikes on ukrainian tanks in that area of kursk. why is that so intense? why is it so important? because the ukrainians. >> hope to. >> hold that ground in order to negotiate a swap of some kind of territory. >> or territorial swap. >> i mean, that's what we perceive ukrainians want to do. now, if they lose that ground and the russians are clearly determined that they will, then that obviously changes the negotiation. and that's all important to going back to your question, because ultimately, if you are the kremlin and you think that you are winning in

kursk, and you think that you will get that ground back in the weeks, but maybe months ahead, why would you agree to a ceasefire now? it is, of course, the question that hangs over washington and the world, especially europe. nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons live from jeddah, saudi arabia. as always, thank you so much, david ignatius, opening the lead from the wall street journal story front page. the american sized hole in ukraine's war effort, written by james morrison, alastair mcdonald and michael gordon. the russian army was advancing relentlessly in northeastern ukraine in the summer of 2022. when you when the us tipped the scales with new weapons and crucial battlefield intelligence, the superior accuracy and greater range of m777 howitzers supplied by the us hit back against

russia's mostly soviet designed artillery. the us intelligence tipped off ukraine's generals that russia had moved several battalions to another front. david, the weapons and the intelligence has made all the difference in the world for the ukrainians. donald trump has taken those away now from the ukrainians, and he's allowing vladimir putin and the russians to bomb ukraine endlessly, relentlessly. and of course, the question is, as we were just saying, that hangs over the united states, that hangs over europe, that hangs over the world, is why. what is your reporting? show you. >> so exactly. >> what donald. >> trump's vision is. >> of the way the world works. after the settlement that he's seeking so. strenuously in ukraine. what the world likes is

a mystery. >> former head of british. >> intelligence has said that he thinks trump. >> is heading. >> toward a world of oligarchs, where three strong men putin, xi and trump kind of. divide up the world. maybe that's that's his vision. i do. >> know. >> joe, that in terms of what you were just discussing, the weapons and intelligence that the united states supplied to ukraine in 2022 were absolutely crucial in their being able to push the. russians back and survive. >> as a country. and the. >> withdrawal of that intelligence and the cutoff of weapons at a time when ukraine is. >> heading into negotiations. >> in which their very existence is at stake, couldn't. >> be a harsher. >> or crueler tactic. by donald trump. i mean. >> we said earlier. >> that russia. trump says russia's been. >> easy to deal with. well, no wonder. >> he's not asking him for anything. meanwhile, he's pounding the ukrainians almost every day. so the ukrainian response i think we'll see

tomorrow in saudi arabia is going to be to say, basically, mr. trump. will do this the way you want. you want a minerals deal, you got one. you want us to cooperate and negotiations. we'll do it. the real question is whether trump is willing to lean in any way on. vladimir putin to get russia. into into a peace deal, but right now, this is becoming really a one sided conflict where russia's ready. to roll in eastern ukraine and ukraine doesn't have the intelligence or weapons, alas, to push them back. >> yeah. >> one sided. >> conflict and one sided negotiation. >> it looks like a little bit from america's. >> point. >> of view. >> and. >> frank, you've written. >> a. >> new piece. >> in which you. >> state bluntly that. >> putin has won. >> you talk. >> about historians. >> playing a parlor. >> game called. >> periodization. >> in which they attempt to define an era. >> by the. >> individual who shaped. >> those times. >> the most. and you're. >> saying that. >> this moment. >> we can. >> and sometimes it's hard. >> to see. >> that. >> in real time. but you're. >> saying that right now we can see it. >> in real time.

>> how has putin. >> shaped this era? >> this is the age of putin. when you look. >> just going. >> back even. >> ten years. >> it's clear that he's had a set of objectives that he's wanted more sympathetic leaders in the west who would destroy nato and the eu from within. he's wanted to discredit democracy as a rival ideology in order to dismantle the movement for democracy, both at home, in his own country and in neighboring countries and in the rest of the world. he's wanted to make the world safer for oligarchic money. and if we look back, not just at the last couple of weeks of the trump administration, where things have really accelerated and he's come much closer to achieving his vision of the world. but if we go back, starting. with brexit. and looking at the way that the eu. has transformed over time and looking at the divisions within nato, you have to say he's not just. winning tactically in a place like ukraine, which is so he cares so passionately about because it's the front line of this. but you look at it kind of more globally. you would say he is

prevailing all around. >> and more. >> than just in ukraine. >> right? more than more, more than just ukraine, frank. i mean, talk about the disinformation also. i mean, we had russia's disinformation campaign to the united states in 2016, which has been proven over and over again. i mean, you had fights in facebook, you know, headquarters, because actually you had one board member actually explaining to other board members that that, yeah, russian disinformation had had polluted facebook during the campaign. but we see it not just in hungary. we saw it in poland with the law and justice party. we've seen it in the uk with russian, you know, right wing nationalist disinformation being spread around. of course, we've seen it in france, we've seen it in germany. i mean, he has effectively with, with, with a

gdp that's less than texas's gdp. we've seen vladimir putin over the past decade spread disinformation to try to weaken western democracies. he has been effective. and in some cases he's been wildly effective. whether you look at the law and justice party in poland or you look at orban in hungary, who is still a country invaded by the old soviet union, basically doing vladimir putin's bidding in the eu. right. >> you go back about. >> ten years. >> 15 years. vladimir putin started losing at home and in ukraine, and he started to. change his tactics. >> he became. >> he became much more active in trying to manipulate elections abroad. he started to finance political parties illicitly. he started to engage in the disinformation. >> campaigns, exploiting. >> social media. and we don't need to ascribe any magical powers to vladimir putin. a lot of his tactics are pretty ham fisted, and sometimes he's

bungled them. but the effect, the net effect, you look at. >> it here and the way. >> in which we're still. >> debating the. russiagate and the russia. >> hoax in the way that this has become. >> an extremely. >> polarizing issue here. that is the goal that he's he. stirred all of this lack of confidence in our democracy. he's exacerbated polarization. he's known where the fissures are in our societies, and he's managed to increase them. >> and with putin's goal being. >> to sow dissent among. nato here and also here in the united states, he's accomplishing that day. >> after day. >> over the. >> weekend, we had this exchange on twitter. x between. poland's foreign minister. >> poland. >> of. >> course, being one of ukraine's foremost allies in this. >> conflict. >> and marco. >> rubio. >> the u.s. >> secretary of state. where they got into an argument. >> with. >> rubio. >> saying. >> say thank. >> you to. >> poland because of the starlinks that the united states and elon musk. helped supply

ukraine in this conflict. and again, much. >> like. >> what we heard from vice president vance and president trump in the oval office two weeks ago. >> demanding that. >> zelenskyy be. >> more. >> more grateful. and it just the u.s. seems to be as diplomats from both, you know. europe and elsewhere have said. to me. and others in recent days, the united. >> states seems to. >> be putting their thumb on the. >> scale for russia. >> in the last couple of weeks. there's not much high. >> hopes. >> for a settlement any time soon. i know these talks start tomorrow, finally with ukrainian. >> officials. >> but joe and mika, there's a growing belief here, and trump. >> made it clear. >> over the. >> weekend that even. >> that minerals deal, even if that does get signed this week. >> that might not be enough. >> for the u.s. to resume sharing intelligence with ukraine. there's a suggestion here that zelenskyy is going to need to step aside in order for the u.s. to start helping again, and perhaps even more. >> than that. >> again, that. goes back to 2019 and that so-called perfect call when donald trump was trying to get dirt on joe biden and the biden family from zelensky. zelensky wouldn't give it. and it's been deeply

personal since then. but i must say, for marco rubio, of all people, jonathan, to get into a fight on twitter with a leader in poland, this would be like ronald reagan's cabinet member getting in a fight with a leader of west germany in the 1980s. you have poland, who is the tip of the spear for american for western democracy. they are on the front lines and everybody knows it. and here we had marco rubio, of course, clip. you could go back and see rubio in 2014 castigating the biden, the obama administration and castigating them for ignoring the treaty that that everybody signed, including putin signed, that if the ukrainians gave up

their nuclear weapons, that we would guarantee their sovereignty and guarantee their borders. and it was marco rubio calling upon the administration to step up and say, what a disgrace and how shameful it was. and here you have marco rubio, david ignatius getting into a battle with really are and i'm not just saying it because i'm sitting next to a brzezinski. i'm saying it because, again, poland is now what west germany was at the height of the cold war. it is just unspeakable that this former cold war warrior would now be going on x attacking the poles. >> it's safe. >> to say. >> that mika's. >> dad would be. >> stunned to. read every headline. that discusses the situation in europe. i mean, the world that zbigniew brzezinski

and so many generations. >> of american. >> foreign policy leaders sought. to create is being undone week by week by the. trump administration. and people need to reckon with the cost of it. i mean, the way in which our national security apparatus is being dismantled at the justice department, the cia and other agencies. yeah. >> you know, you really. >> begin to wonder about. >> about where. >> the protection will. be going forward. i think we'll see this. week whether president trump is really serious about getting to a peace deal in ukraine. that will work. that's fair enough that it won't just. blow up in his face. he says he wants peace. he says that's his mission. this week we're going to find out, i think. >> well, by the way, for those who don't know what doctor brzezinski spent his entire life, his entire life fighting for the liberation of eastern europe from russian aggression. he spent his entire life from

the time he was 13, 14 years old. and so did a hell of a lot of other americans, whether in uniform or whether in the state department or whether in the diplomatic corps or whether in usaid. it was all geared toward pushing back on russian aggression. and now, mika, you have marco rubio, our secretary of state, attacking poland, saying, just say thank you. how about the united states saying thank you to the ukrainians, to the poles, to other people in central and eastern europe and the former warsaw pact that have pushed back and fought and given their lives. >> for the safety of. >> the world. >> for the safety of europe, for the safety of the west, for the safety of the world. i think we are the ones who are in a position to thank them for being on the front lines in the fight for freedom. >> so the washington post, david

ignatius and the atlantic's frank, for thank you both very, very much. and coming up, dispatches from spring training, where the injuries are mounting for both new york teams. pablo torre joins us with his takes on the yankees and mets, who might have a hard time fielding a team, let alone contending for a title. and as we mentioned at the top of the show, he wrapped up the forbes and know your value. fourth annual 3050 summit and the situation in ukraine and the world. events really hung heavy over the summit as women, women stepped up into the light. at this gathering, a global gathering of women in history, the event brought together hundreds of women from 46 different countries for three days of unparalleled networking, mentorship and life changing conversations with world leaders across politics, entertainment, finance, social entrepreneurship and more. our summit concluded with an international women's day awards gala at the louvre

abu dhabi to honor women who have helped shape history. pulitzer prize winning photojournalist lynsey addario received our torch of freedom award for her dedication to capturing moments of resilience, conflict and humanity in some of the most challenging places on earth, including during and in the war in ukraine. she repeatedly faced the possibility of death. as we head to break, take a look at part of her moving acceptance speech, which you can watch in its entirety at know your value.com. >> in its essence, photojournalism. >> conveys truth. >> no matter how inconvenient that. >> is to some. >> today, we live in a world. >> where truth is up for. >> debate. >> where a few people. in positions. >> of power. convey and perpetuate. >> their own realities. >> far away. >> from the. >> actual events. >> that have transpired. that's

because reality can be threatening. >> and it makes journalism even more essential. as we. >> move. >> forward in. >> an ever more connected. >> world full. >> of. both facts. >> and disinformation. >> i've been covering. >> conflict for 25 years. >> i've been kidnaped twice in. >> iraq by a group. >> linked to al qaeda following the us. >> invasion in 2004. >> and in libya. >> by gadhafi's. >> soldiers during the popular uprising in 2011. i was. >> thrown out of. >> a car on a highway in. pakistan while covering the taliban. invasion of swat valley. >> seven weeks. before my wedding. >> i have been in the. >> midst of countless gun. >> battles and ambushes. >> while with. >> the us. >> troops everywhere. >> from iraq to. >> afghanistan. >> and wondered on. >> several occasions whether i would live to see the. >> next day. >> but i am still. committed to my life. >> as. >> a photojournalist. >> with every ounce. >> of my soul. >> i still. >> go back. >> to war. >> even.

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>> for first responders, military and law enforcement only@govecs.com. >> i'm back. back in the new york booth. >> look at that. >> it's the bronx. >> yeah. >> that. >> is beautiful. >> there appears to be a lot of worry about new york baseball fans. for new york, baseball fans had voting days. the yankees limped through spring training with a decimated pitching staff and big questions about the health of one of their biggest sluggers. while the mets continue to add to their own pile of injuries. let's bring in the host of pablo torre finds out on meadowlark media and msnbc contributor pablo torre. pablo, this breaks my heart. blue breaks. >> i can. >> hear the tears. >> i can. >> hear the tears. joe breaks my heart almost as much as watching number one auburn lose in the last second to the mighty crimson tide of alabama. but let's talk about the yankees injury problems. and i think most really, probably the most

concerning what's what's happening right now to gerrit cole. just an incredible pitcher and one of the few pitchers who actually ended up. and i've always respected him so much for this, actually earning the money he made as a free agent. he has been he's except when he had to face raffy devers. he's been great. >> look. >> the i. >> would gladly pay a healthy gerrit cole the. >> 34 or. >> whatever it is, million dollars a year. >> to. >> just be healthy. >> that's despite. >> my ptsd. >> from game. >> five of the. >> world series, where, of course, he. >> had trouble covering. >> first base. >> but i'll. >> even leave that. >> aside because. >> this guy joe. >> is essential. >> and the problem. >> is that, look, spring training. >> everybody who's a baseball fan knows this. all you. >> want to do. >> is. >> emerge unscathed. >> it's just. >> let's just. >> get through. >> let's get through. >> florida and arizona. >> let's get. >> through. >> pitchers and catchers. >> and the yankees. >> have not. >> been able to. >> do that. and gerrit. >> cole contemplating. >> some of the proper. nouns that haunt. >> any baseball fan who. >> knows the vocabulary.

>> tommy. >> john, doctor neil, atrash. >> these are orthopedists and players. >> who are famous for. >> their for their surgeries. >> and so i worry. >> about losing. >> a guy at age. 34 this season. >> and part of next. because he is needed in the mash unit. >> in the triage. >> in the. ward that. >> is the new. >> york yankees right now. >> it's ridiculous. >> it's ridiculous. >> what's happening? it really is. and jonathan, i you know, i had forgotten so much that happens has happened since the world series. i had forgotten that the yankees did, in fact, turn in the worst inning in that fifth inning in world series history. i had completely forgotten. >> worse texts. >> suggest otherwise. >> in world series history. >> yeah. >> we should. >> probably go through that inning right now. >> play by play. but i. >> guess we're. >> a little i guess we're a little. >> short. >> on time, alex says. but war going, but but you're right. if gerrit. >> cole is. >> injured, rafael. >> devers would be the. >> most affected, since that's 5 or 6. >> home. >> runs off of. >> his season stats. that would be gone. >> but it's.

>> not. >> just cole. >> it is. >> it's not. >> just cole. >> who. >> is legit, who. >> is not quite himself last year, but. pitched through an injury and as you said, as you sat down here. >> was essential. >> the yankees. >> still need him. >> lucas hill is out. >> for months. yeah. >> rookie of the year. last year, another starter giancarlo stanton. >> that's the one. so i. >> didn't know. >> were you familiar that you. >> could have double. >> tennis elbow. >> because. >> i didn't. >> yeah i didn't know. >> i knew. one one elbow. >> was a problem. but double. >> tennis elbow. >> if any. if anybody can have double tennis elbow it would be stanton who gets hurt every 15 days. >> can we stop? >> can we stop. >> playing tennis? >> can you stop. >> using elbows? can you find another. joint to operate? how? >> how do you think we feel? the red sox? like we had chris sale riding bicycles and falling down heartbreak hill like while he was. their heads. >> are falling off. >> and when. >> cy young awards. yeah. beating up, beating up tv sets. like we feel your pain. >> yeah, yeah. >> i'm about to punch a tv set. >> incidentally, at the. >> rate this segment is going. >> but please, please proceed. so let's. >> let's let's also briefly.

pablo, the mets to the yankees aren't. >> the. >> only. >> oh. >> the mets have got their share. >> as well. >> their catcher broken hand. he's out. >> for a few months. >> they're down. >> a couple of pitchers as well. it's just. >> funny like the back pain. >> look again, it's. >> just can't. >> catch a break. is the mets headline alvarez the catcher being out. pitchers out. >> look, we. >> here in new york city, if there's anything. >> that. >> mets and yankees fans can bond over, it is the fact that we are finding no sympathy from the hosts of morning. joe right now. but yeah. it's bad. it's real bad. it's spring. >> and it's. >> it feels wintry. >> yeah. yeah. hold on one second. really quickly, before we go, i just have to ask you, pablo. really quickly. march madness coming up. who's going to win it all? >> i, i don't like how the. sec has. >> been looking. >> i don't. >> like that. you guys used to parade yourselves all over college football, and now suddenly, march madness is your month as well, frankly. auburn and alabama, i depending on that bracket, i could see having a

version of the debate that we had for the college football playoff in this tournament. but i take them seriously, and i take. >> duke seriously. >> because. >> they got. >> cooper flagg. >> who's going to be the number one overall pick if he decides to not take money. from duke in excess of an nba salary. >> so jonathan amir, other than all of us rooting for saint john's to get deep in this tournament, because when saint john's gets deep in the tournament, it is so fun in new york city. but but who's your pick? who's going to win it all? >> yeah, they had another dramatic win over the weekend. >> rick pitino has really turned that. >> program around. >> i think it's wide open. yeah i agree. i mean duke. >> you could pick duke, but i think the sec is really strong this year and i don't i think we'll learn a lot this coming weekend with the conference championship tournaments as well. so we'll. >> revisit this in. >> a week's time when we have the brackets, who we are. we'll also have to do some nfl free agency down. >> the road. there's a lot happening. >> yeah, yeah yeah. we need to do the mock draft because that's of course most important to me. but i will tell you, the one team that jack and i fear the

most is alabama fans. duke, we think we can beat anybody in the sec. we fear duke. mike. and i know you do too. you say they're just very well rounded team. well rounded. and by. the way, proving he can talk about anything pablo has a lot of range. he does. check out his recent episode. >> of his. >> i already have. >> it's about a shelved prince documentary. yeah. why was it shelved? you'll find out. >> yes. >> that's on pablo. to find out on meadowlark media. >> i want to see that documentary even more now. >> i do. >> i know. >> i've been teasing america. teasing america, but it's in the episode. there's a lot in there. all your questions, or at least most of them. >> will be. >> answered, i hope. >> yeah. let's go crazy and watch pablo torres. yes. >> okay, let's get to our top story. five minutes late. thanks to all of you guys. five minutes past the top of the hour. secretary of state marco rubio is in saudi arabia meeting with the saudi crown prince ahead of

tomorrow's peace talks with ukrainian officials. ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky is also set to meet with the crown prince today. it is unclear if he will attend tomorrow's discussion. joining us now, nbc news and msnbc political analyst, former u.s. senator claire mccaskill. >> mccaskill it's just absolutely crazy. we talked last hour about the fact that marco rubio going on twitter to attack poland, saying, can't you say thank you? i mean, this is a taunt. this would be like the reagan administration, the kennedy administration saying to the west germans, say thank you. say thank you for being on the front lines and the fight for freedom around the world. i mean, it's really it's just it's staggering that this continues, whether it's jd vance talking to a war hero who has seen his loved ones die, whose life has been on the line every single day over the past three years because of russian aggression.

these these guys sitting around squawking from the safety of the oval office and the state department, say thank you to people whose very lives are on the line because of putin's aggression. >> yeah, this. administration is. >> so immature. >> you know. >> it's almost like marco. >> rubio felt like he had. >> to do that. >> to make up to musk. you know, that he had to put something out to show that he's. >> on trump's. >> side and musk's side, and they're. >> all. >> bros together, and. >> they can be. >> silly and immature. >> and say ridiculous things to our long standing allies. and by the way. >> lovers of freedom. >> you know what happened to the republican party, who i remember. >> during the iraq war wouldn't serve. >> french fries. in in the house cafeteria. they had to call them freedom fries. >> and now all. >> of a sudden. freedom is no. >> longer cool. >> i mean. >> poland is on the front line.

>> of everything that america is supposed to care about. >> so it's. >> uncertainty, it's. >> incompetence. >> it's chaos. >> and it's. >> very immature how these guys are running the most. powerful government in the world. >> let's bring in pulitzer prize winning opinion columnist for the new york times, maureen dowd. she is the author of the new book entitled notorious portraits of stars from hollywood culture, fashion and tech, an essay collection of her style features for various publications. and it is great to have you. back on the show. >> maureen. incredible to have you on the show, maureen. and we're going to we're going to get to the book in one second. you have written, though obviously, about the showdown between donald trump and zelensky. i'm curious your thoughts as we go towards peace talks. possible peace talks or possible capitulation in saudi arabia this morning? >> yeah, i was nauseated by that scene in the oval office. it

actually made. >> me sort. >> of queasy to see the. president and j.d. vance treating. zelensky like a busboy. >> it was unworthy. >> of america. >> yeah. and you, you've obviously covered a lot of administrations. you covered. i also wrote about the first trump administration. how does it how does a second trump administration one month in compare to the first trump administration? what are the similarities? what are the differences? >> well, i always used to think the thing that saved us. with trump. was that he. >> was not a hawk. >> he did not. >> have those tendencies. >> he always acted like any, you know, war was a distraction from you could be doing business. you could be opening an oceanfront hotel, you know, in north korea. why are we having all this? but

now he has turned into some wild imperialist where he's grabbing greenland and canada and d.c. and kennedy center. and, you know, that's a different situation. and also trump, in combination with the tech guys who, as kara swisher wrote in the atlantic this week, they decided their digital world was not enough for them. they want to take over the real government, and that combination is very dangerous, i think. >> well, a perfect segue. speaking of the tech guys, maureen, the book features a 2017 vanity fair profile that you wrote on elon musk, who discussed his then tepid relationship with president donald trump. and you write in part this with trump. now, president musk finds himself walking a fine line, his company's count on the u.s. government for business and

subsidies, regardless of whether marcus aurelius or caligula is in charge. musk's companies joined the amicus brief against trump's executive order regarding immigration and refugees, and musk himself tweeted against the order at the same tune. unlike uber's travis kalanick, musk has a has hung in there as a member of trump's strategic and policy forum. i asked musk about the flak he had gotten for associating with trump in the photograph of tech executives with trump, he had looked gloomy, and there was a weary tone in his voice when he talked about the subject. in the end, he said, it's better to have voices of moderation in the room with the president. there are a lot of people, kind of the hard left, who essentially want to isolate and not have any voice. very unwise. again, that was back in 2017. so looking now

at the relationship with. >> moscow, given your time with him and the profile that you wrote, what insights does it give you on the elon musk that you've seen since he was jumping around on stage in pennsylvania in the final weeks of the campaign? >> well, there is another profile in the book of peter thiel. and back in 2019, and peter thiel then was a pariah. in silicon valley because he had spoken at trump's 2016 convention and all the other silicon silicon valley guys were democrats. so that tells you how far we've come. and peter thiel predicted that elon musk and. trump would start getting along because elon musk was kind of like. the sci fi p.t. barnum, and trump is the real p.t. barnum. so he thought that their larger than life personas and

their grand master salesmanship would draw them together. and i think it will probably keep them together longer than a lot of people think. >> well, and you know that it's a perfect segue for just talking about the book in general. notorious, you started doing these profiles because you didn't want to just limit yourself to writing in your voice about washington. you wanted to not only examine washington leaders, but wanted to examine leaders in hollywood and in the tech world. and you say that the one thing that they had in common was all of these people had to somehow sort of bend reality fields. talk, talk about, talk about the difference going from washington to hollywood to silicon valley and covering these people. >> right. well, i think of washington and hollywood and now silicon valley as as all of them are capitals of illusion. and

ratings really are in silicon valley. clicks. and when i was little, my brother would take me over to american film institute at kennedy center before it was trump kennedy center, and he would take me to movies like shane and singing in the rain. and i was fascinated with movie stars who had such magnetism. they burned through the screen. and i felt the same way in politics. when i first saw barack obama, i got on the road with him for all of 2008, because i am fascinated with people who are super magnetic, super talented, super powerful, and how they use that power or abuse it or squander it. and that's why, you know, i studied shakespeare in school, and that's what the shakespearean tragedies and histories are about. >> you know, one of those figures that had such an extraordinary cultural impact and, as you say, still does when

you travel around the world, you still see her images everywhere. marilyn monroe and. she's on the can find you. right, right, right. but you, you, you talked about in your jane fonda profile, how monroe walked straight up to jane fonda in a meeting where men were literally shaking because they were so nervous. she was in the room, but she saw jane fonda, who was then young and very insecure, and she was drawn to that insecurity. but you also talked about in your profile of marilyn monroe itself, you said, here's a woman who is supposed to be this dumb, ditzy blond, but she started her own production company. her image is still one of the most iconic images in the world, one of the most powerful images in the world. and you said what drew people to marilyn monroe were her troubles as well. the power and the pain. they collided together to create

something that just drew americans to her. >> yeah. how do you stay famous that long? it's fascinating. you know, when you walk around new york, you still see her picture in cartoons and picture in store windows. and you're right, joe, it was the vulnerability that bonded people to her. and, you know, they were always posing her with a book as, like an inside joke, like, oh, look, the dumb blond has a book. but she herself had a collection of 300 classic books. she was always striving to be better. and, you know, there's a very sad quote in there. i think after it's after her arthur miller marriage where she says, you can't, you know, you can't really know people or be in love with people, really. and she's a very sad story. >> yeah. let's talk about al pacino. i saw his. >> picture is out here with willie. >> with willie. >> i we got we got a chance. i

got a chance to talk to him for after his book came out. and i. >> love that interview. that was such a great interview. >> thank you. you know, the thing that struck me about al pacino and you, you write about it in your profile of him, is you have a lot of movie stars that go, oh, i'm an actor. i do it just for the acting. and maybe they'll go to broadway for 3 or 4 days, but with al pacino, you realize this guy. was crazy about his craft. >> he was. >> driven to act. he became famous. he became a mega star after the godfather. it created a lot of distractions. but at the end of the day, maureen, you say it all came down to being an actor. for him, that was his life. >> yes, he you know, i the title is partly inspired by him because he told me when he got notorious meaning, you know,

famous after the godfather, there were so many sycophants and women and drugs and alcohol, and he sort of succumbed to all of it. and he said that was a really terrible time. and then he kind of pulled out of it later because he realized the thing he really loved was at risk his acting. but he's as you as you could see, joe. he's a very interesting guy. >> yeah. >> he is. and directors that have worked with him have said the same. you you also profile larry david and i must ask you and i asked larry this question on air because he was walking me through his office. i immediately pointed to the private jet and i said, private jet. that's interesting. who's is that? larry didn't want to talk about that, but i saw a collection of hitler books, and i said, larry, this is very interesting. >> i can explain this.

>> this is i said, larry, this is very interesting because you are a fighter against anti-semitism. i said, and yet you have a large collection of hitler books. why? he said. maureen always sends me hitler books, so please explain. yeah. >> well, obviously, because he's a, you know, a student of anti-semitism. i sent him books about hitler to sate his, you know, anti-semitic studies. but larry is so funny because if you go out with him in, in public, like, we went to san vicente bungalows for dinner one night a couple of years ago, and he's just like he is on the show. he got a drink with a piece of celery in it, and he didn't like that. so then he's agitating for a long time. then he looks around and throws it in a planter, you know, and then he's obsessing on the fact. will anyone find the piece of celery

in the planter? >> so there's so many, so many fascinating profiles here. >> one i. >> wanted to. >> turn to. was eddie murphy, who back in the headlines. >> you know, part of the snl. 50 celebrated as. >> part of that commemoration. >> a couple of weeks ago. >> delivered a couple of funny moments. but you talked to him back in your profile and back in 1992, and he's had another one who's had a really up and down relationship with fame, including. >> disappearing for. >> long stretches of time. >> right. he when i that's why i love this book because i'm interviewing people sometimes at their peak. and so eddie murphy was at his peak and he was known as being surly and having a large entourage. and when he showed up for the interview, he was surly and he was angry at his image, and he began explaining, he doesn't really have that large an entourage and defending himself, and it's just to me, very fascinating to watch how people adjust to power. you

know, sometimes in the white house, i'm always shocked that that presidents insecurities and gremlins come out right when they're elected at the very moment they should be confident and enjoying themselves. they are scared and insecure. and it's the same with movie stars. >> so, maureen, you. >> mentioned reading. >> shakespeare and how much you enjoy that and how much. >> it prepares. >> you both. >> for movie. >> stars and politicians. >> which shakespeare. >> play are we. >> in at the moment? >> yes. i know you're friends with simon godwin, the head of the shakespeare, you know, theater in washington, who's a really great guy. i keep asking shakespeare scholars what character trump is like. and more often they say he's in the tradition of p.t. barnum, but, you know, or late lear or a little bit of caliban, but also the main thing i would say is richard the third. richard the third is this malevolent person

who keeps turning to the audience and with humor is tells them exactly what awful thing he's about to do, and he charms them and gets them on his side and kind of breaks the fourth wall. so i would say that is the quality we see in trump. and you see it in the saturday night live mimicry, where his humor tends to undercut some of the dangerous things he's saying or doing. >> the new book, notorious portraits of stars from hollywood culture, fashion and tech, is available for preorder right now and goes on sale tomorrow. author and new york times opinion columnist. the great maureen dowd. >> great. >> and you forgot to mention andre, who loved you guys so much. >> well. >> andre. >> especially when joe would wear no socks with his loafers. >> that's right. andre is really

andre. >> andre, you did like it, andre. just. you have to talk about him. just. just remembering what an extraordinary force he was. let's let's talk. >> about your msnbc for eight hours a day. and, you know, his one of his favorite words was dreck itude. he would dismiss things as being directed, too. but he loved you guys were not directed. i think he always i always think of the purple rose of cairo, where if he could have got gotten up off the couch and gotten into the screen with you, he would have been perfectly happy. >> he's he. >> was so funny. and you are right. he came up to me. you know, it's so funny how things go in, in phases. i've been wearing, like stan smiths my entire life. they go out of style, they come in style, and then people go, wow, you're really in, you know? and then they'll go out of style. but that's like, i've just never worn socks. i don't care if it's like 20 below zero.

>> and he absolutely approved of that one time. one time. >> yeah. >> one time i went to the opera with him in new york, the met and i had on a vintage dress that i thought was very pretty, that had tall on it. and he looks me up and down and says super disdainfully, blanche dubois. so he didn't hold back if he said he liked the no sock look, he liked it. >> exactly. of course, we're talking about andre leon talley. yeah, he passed away. he was on the cover. he's on so much. >> oh, great. >> maureen. >> thank you so much. >> thank you guys, i wish i. >> had seen. >> you in person. okay. >> thank you. next time. next time. still ahead on morning joe, we'll have the latest on the justice department's request to drop the criminal charges against new york city mayor eric adams. plus, this weekend marked the 60th anniversary of bloody sunday. and the reverend al sharpton joins us to discuss the

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saturday night live over the weekend, performing songs off her new album, mayhem. she played both host and musical guest. we'll move on to the news now. today, the house rules committee is expected to take up speaker mike johnson's stopgap plan to fund the government. johnson's bill would keep the government running through september. at current spending levels. it would also boost military funding but cut non-defense spending in response to the cuts. house minority leader hakeem jeffries is calling on democrats to vote no on the stopgap bill. if all democrats vote against the measure, speaker johnson will only be able to afford to lose one vote, as republican congressman thomas massie of kentucky has already said he plans to vote no on the package. president trump, for his part, is ramping up a pressure campaign on republicans writing on social media, quote, quote, all republicans should vote yes

next week. great things are coming for america, and i am asking you all to give us a few months to get through to september so we can continue to put the country's financial house in order. claire mccaskill are great things on the way, especially with the economy. >> yeah, i mean, listen, i think everybody the messaging here is a little muddled for the democrats because it's very important that democrats. don't stand in the way of cutting wasteful spending. but the way these guys are doing it, they're not cutting fat. they're basically breaking bones of government service to america. and it is so haphazard. it is so without merit. it is so unfair and people are going to start feeling it. that's a separate issue than whether or not they're going to pass this continuing resolution that basically pushes the ball down the field, doesn't do anything

really, except extend current funding. and here's the other problem the democrats have. if they end up being the reason that the government shuts down, that muddles their message, that in fact. >> it's the trump. >> administration that is. trying to shut down your government services like social security, like medicaid, like veterans benefits. so i predict, like all other cr drama, that they will pass the cr this week and they will continue the current levels of government funding until september. but then the train wreck comes mika. then they have to cut medicaid to give rich people a tax cut. and people don't realize what medicaid does. i think people have in their mind, medicaid is just for poor people in the cities. the majority of people, there are more people on medicaid in rural america than urban america and children. almost 40% of the children in america are getting funding from medicaid and children's health insurance.

>> program. >> which is part of the medicaid program. so that's. where you're really going to see a problem. >> for the republicans, because they're going to basically. >> take a knife to the very. >> areas that put them in. >> the white house and in congress. >> claire mccaskill, thank you very much for coming on this morning. thousands gathered in selma, alabama, over the weekend to mark the 60th anniversary of bloody sunday in 1965, a group of unarmed, peaceful activists faced vicious racial violence. it revealed the cruelty protesters faced amid the fight for civil rights, and helped move the public sentiment. joining us now, president of the national action network and host of msnbc's politics nation, reverend al sharpton, he anchored his show yesterday from selma. tell us first rev, about the event. >> well, it was an all day event. thousands, as you said, came from all over the country.

we had a church service rally in the morning where all of us spoke. the reverend senator raphael warnock spoke, and house leader jeffries and i think that it was a day of reflection, but also a day of projection in the sense that we were saying that 60 years ago people were beaten on that bridge. many of us was there just a few years ago when barack obama, the 50th anniversary, we walked with him across that bridge. and the last time john lewis, who was beaten on the original bloody sunday, we went across that bridge with him yesterday, i helped will jesse jackson across. he's in a wheelchair due to parkinson's. he and his son and congresswoman maxine waters and i. and there is a real feeling that voting rights is under threat. now. we're seeing in many states changing voting laws, saying that you can't use drop box, no

more to vote or you can't. you must use certain voter id or in other situations, just outright making it complicated. so there's a sense of urgency as well as a sense of urgency about what we're dealing with across the board. in terms of civil rights issues under the trump administration. so it was as much a galvanizing forces to fight to preserve civil and voting rights as it was a memorial of what happened 60 years ago. >> so, rev, some of the media reports from the. >> weekend suggest. >> talking to. >> participants who said. >> that they. >> they felt the march felt more. >> somber this. >> year than usual. >> we're curious. >> to see if you agree with that. >> and also. this fear that some expressed that a lot of the progress. >> made over these. >> decades could be on the verge of being eroded. >> i think that there was a somber kind of mood. it was not jubilant. i've been going 25 years. the jubilation that we saw at 50th anniversary, we

didn't see yesterday because they feel that there's a lot under threat when you're looking at a situation now where dei, diversity, equity and inclusion is being wiped out by this administration with a frontal attack, people are saying, wait a minute here, we need to be here is where we need to be. remembering how we fought years ago and fight this now. and one young man stopped me and said, let me get this right. reverend al, you and others said that i, as an ex-felon, should have the right to vote, and people didn't want us to have the right to vote as ex-felons. but we have a man convicted of 34 felony. that's the president of the united states. explain that to me. i said, if i could, i would, and that's the kind of rationality that the right has not been able to explain. donald trump was convicted. he's a felon. i didn't see governor desantis try to stop him from voting, but they did resist when

we had that movement in florida. >> rev. >> i understand that those. >> who were. >> there may feel despondent at what they. see today. >> but talk. >> to me a little bit more. >> about the young people. >> you said you had one. >> conversation with a young person. >> who was there today. do they have a sense of unity, of purpose, of. >> how they. >> think they. >> can. >> make this. >> moment better? >> yes they did. i saw a lot of hope and a lot of determination and they were talking about doing it nonviolently, doing it by participating in voting and all. and we're saying, yeah, y'all are right. if we had voted more, maybe the outcome was different or would be different. so i did not see as much as i saw people being somber, saying, here we are again. i didn't see with young people saying, this is just a repeat. it'll never happen. it'll never help us in our generation. i saw more determination than i saw those that would be deterrents. >> all right. coming up, we're going to have the latest on the

doj push to have charges against new york city mayor eric adams dropped, including what our next guest calls an absolutely insane attempt to discredit the case. msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin will explain straight ahead on morning joe. >> pushing down. >> on me. >> pressing down on you. no man. >> ask for under pressure. >> are you overwhelmed with identity management in. >> the. context of omnipresent. >> threats to your organization? >> hi. so no one knows what that means. >> what's happening? >> just explain. i want to help secure digital identity. >> keep it simple. >> like what? >> like when. >> delivering a fresh. >> uniform or. >> viewing your results. yeah. it's bad. or making bread soon at the high school reunion. >> oh, i love that color. cute. that was a lot. >> oh, there's. >> more, like. >> lots more.

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>> welcome back. >> at 42 past the hour. look at that beautiful sunrise over in new york city. speaking of, there are new developments surrounding the justice department's push to have federal charges against new york city mayor eric adams dropped. much of the focus is on whether charges could be refiled in the future. joining us now, former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. so, lisa, where does this stand right now? mika. this is. >> in the hands. >> of the judge overseeing the case. >> that's federal. >> district judge. >> dale ho of the southern district of new york. and even though alex spiro, who is mayor. >> adams's lead. >> lawyer, infamously. >> said over. >> the weekend. >> that it. >> is now. >> game over, that is not. >> technically true. >> the decision. >> on whether to dismiss the case and how to dismiss. the case rests with judge ho, who is tentatively scheduled. a

hearing. >> for this friday to determine. >> what his options are, and. >> in. >> particular, whether. >> he. >> is allowed. >> to consider things. outside the four corners. >> of the motion filed by the department of. >> justice here. and that. >> would. >> include things. >> like the communications between. >> and among the. >> department of justice. >> lawyers that have now. been included with. >> a filing that. >> todd blanche. >> the deputy. attorney general, and his deputy. >> emil bove, filed on. friday night. solely in their own. >> names and without the signature of any career. >> officials at the department of justice. >> so, lisa, i know you've. >> been also focused on the efforts to sort of discredit the case entirely. >> i think. >> jon. >> that the efforts to discredit the case. >> entirely were. >> beyond what. >> anyone could have anticipated. >> they would be in support of their efforts to get the case. >> against mayor adams dismissed, as they just mentioned, emil bove and todd blanch attached a handful of emails. they are drafts of

letters, text messages, internal email communications. >> about 7 or. >> 8 of them between and among the prosecutors handling this case. >> and they have. >> used those to say not only. >> that, damian. >> williams, who is the former u.s. attorney. >> had. >> improper political motives. >> in bringing the case, but that the career prosecutors. themselves had serious. >> doubts about. >> the propriety of their actions and that one. >> of. >> them in. >> particular, was. >> careerist, aggressive, and. >> not bringing. >> this case for. >> the right reasons. >> they are suggesting that his real reasons for. >> doing this were not because of justice, but. >> to win himself a seat. >> on the federal bench. >> this is a person who. >> as of a month ago, was one of the darlings of the conservative. >> legal movement, a person that. >> they would have held up as an. exemplar of. integrity and. justice himself. the smear here is something i've. never seen before, and. you can count on the fact that some of these people may. >> not be this.

>> week. >> but they will. >> be fighting to get their. >> professional reputations. >> back, because i guarantee. >> you that these. >> seven emails are not the entirety. of the story. if you're going to excavate some of these electronic communications here, and this is the best that you can come up. >> with. >> something tells. me that. >> there's a whole. >> lot more. in the background. >> here, as. >> these prosecutors were discussing bringing charges. >> and by the way. >> good. >> prosecutors have doubts, good prosecutors. >> talk about. >> how to. shore up their cases. >> good prosecutors. >> acknowledge the weaknesses. >> of those cases. that's not a lack of integrity. >> that's in. fact proof. >> of their integrity. >> that's what good. >> lawyers do. >> as you know, many of them. well, i can speak for myself. respect damian williams and does not think he was ordered to do this, and at the same time thinks that eric adams should not have put on a leash, which it looks like the report has come out from the independent person that the judge had

assigned said the same thing. and i talked to the mayor the other day. he felt they did, saying what you're saying doesn't affect the election. he's got an uphill battle. but let me ask you, do you think that now that this has come out where i hid the person the judge is appointed has taken his position? will this end in friday's proceedings, or does the judge still have the right to sit back and say, i want more evidence, i want to hear more arguments? >> you know. >> it would. >> have depended on when you asked me on friday night when. >> i saw the brief filed by paul. >> clement. >> who is the. >> independent person that you're speaking of, my thought was that judge ho would not do further fact finding, because. >> paul clement's. >> position is that based on the case law here and the. history of the rule that governs motions to dismiss like. >> this, judge. >> ho has two options. >> he can. >> either dismiss the case with prejudice, which means charges couldn't be brought. on the same facts against. eric adams in the future. and that's what paul clement is recommending here. he says. that in the. >> interest of justice, it is. >> entirely unfair to dangle a

future indictment over eric adams head. >> and essentially make him. >> the puppet of the trump administration's immigration priorities. or that he could dismiss. without prejudice. but paul clement is saying, essentially. >> judge ho. >> you have two options here. and neither of them end in the restoration or continuation of. >> this case. >> but then i saw this department of justice brief that, as i just mentioned, is a total smear job against the prosecutors involved here and suggests that everyone involved either had improper motives or suspected them from others. it's not clear to me that judge ho can necessarily let that rest. even if in the end, his two options with respect to eric adams himself are dismissing with prejudice or dismissing without prejudice. >> msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin, thank you very much for your update and analysis this morning. and reverend al sharpton, thank you as well. we want to note that you are preaching today at the funeral for legendary singer roberta

flack, and we'll be looking forward to hearing your words, rev, today on that. thank you for being on this morning. and still ahead, president trump is now defending the relationship between elon musk and secretary of state marco rubio following their reported clash. we're going to dig into what this means for trump and his cabinet. and if doge is starting to lose steam. plus, cnbc's andrew ross sorkin will take a look at how investors are reacting to trump refusing to rule out the possibility of a recession. also ahead, we'll bring you the latest in a small plane crash that sent five people to the hospital in lancaster, pennsylvania. morning joe will pennsylvania. morning joe will be right (♪♪) years of hard work. decades of dedication. committed to giving back. you've been there, done that. and you're still here for more. so now that you're 50 or older,

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reported. five people are lucky to be alive after a small plane carrying them crashed into a parking lot of a retirement community. it happened yesterday in lancaster county, pennsylvania. video of the wreckage shows the plane engulfed in flames and smoke. everyone on board survived. officials say no one on the ground was hurt and there was no structural damage, according to air traffic control radio. someone on the plane reportedly reported that a door was open on the aircraft shortly after takeoff. the ntsb and faa are working to investigate the crash, and four separate brush fires broke out on long island, new york, over the weekend. the largest of the brush fires burned over 400 acres of land and required a response from 80 different fire departments. the fires are believed to have burned through a total of 600 to 700 acres of land across long

island. new york governor kathy hochul has declared a state of emergency. no word yet on what caused the fires. and coming up, the populist versus the billionaire. one of our next guest has a new reporting on steve bannon, elon musk and the battle within maga. tyler pager of the new york times joins us of the new york times joins us just ahead on morning joe. (♪♪) (♪♪) voltaren... for long lasting arthritis pain relief. (♪♪) insurify. at insurify we make it easy to cut your car insurance bill in half. arthritis pain relief. half? how? just go to insurify.com and compare dozens of quotes in a few clicks. cut out the middleman, so you can cut your bill in half. go to insurify.com and and save up to 50% on your car insurance. dangerous ladders. gutter muck.

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coming! i know you're under. >> a lot of. >> stress, but i can't have you fighting with ellen, okay? i need you to be my. good little marco. >> mr. trump, if you think. >> i'm going to stand. >> here and. >> let. >> you call me that, you're right. what i. >> don't accept is. >> ellen having total. >> access to. >> our government. planes are. >> crashing. >> and. he keeps trying to fire air traffic controllers. >> well, ellen. >> knows a lot. >> about air travel. >> okay? he runs spacex, which is doing. >> incredible things in terms of explosions. and with regard to rocket debris. look, i can't have you two. >> at each other's. >> throats, okay? >> after all, i have a perfect record. >> everyone who's ever worked for me. >> has left on. >> good terms, and. >> then gone on to write a book called the man who ruined everything. so you two need to start acting like. >> mature adults. okay? >> so let's begin with. >> marco polo.

>> now, ellen, i'm trying to talk. >> to marco polo. >> so, headlines from. >> the meeting. >> one america's. >> doing bad guy now. two. marco, get your budget under control. and three. ellen, stay. >> in your lane. you're not the boss. but i paid. >> you. >> $300 million. and that's why. >> you're the boss. >> so that was saturday night live. poking fun at the reported clash between elon musk and secretary of state marco rubio over the sweeping doge cuts. we'll dive into that explosive meeting. and whether president trump is starting to rein musk in. good morning, and welcome to morning joe. it is monday, march 10th with us. we have the co-host of our fourth hour, jonathan lemire. he's a contributing writer at the atlantic covering the white house and national politics, us special correspondent for bbc news and the host of the rest is politics podcast. katty kay,

columnist and associate editor for the washington post. david ignatius is with us and staff writer for the atlantic. frank ford joins us as well. good to have you all. >> and welcome back from the other side of the world. >> thank you. yes, quite a trip. we're back. >> we have great stories to tell. >> oh, remarkable. we have a lot to show later on in the show. >> okay, we'll do that later on in. >> the show. >> so i just really quickly the front, front pages of, of the papers today, especially the wall street journal, which is obviously the official voice of, of, of the business community. their headline is wary investors play defense and switch to dividend stocks rattled by the threat of trade restrictions and a slowing economy is the lead investors are playing are turning to a classic defensive play. and then if you look at the top of business and finance this morning, starting out the week, markets wake up to new reality. and james mcintosh

writes, talks about problems with stocks. tesla. some stocks are falls are extraordinary. tesla is down 45% from its high in mid-december. talks about the big tech firms and the russell 2000 index of smaller companies were down more than 10%. both are lower than they were on election day. the s&p 500 is below where it stood on november 5th, and the dollar has dropped sharply. just a lot of economic concerns. and of course, mika this weekend, of course, washington buzzing about the question donald trump didn't answer. >> yeah, well, he isn't ruling out the possibility that the united states could head into a recession this year as his economic policies cause uncertainty on wall street. take a listen. >> are you expecting a recession this year?

>> i hate. >> to predict things like that. >> there is a. >> period of. >> transition because what we're doing is very big. we're bringing wealth back to america. that's a big thing. and there are always periods of it takes a little time. >> it takes a little time. >> but i think it should be great for us. i mean, i think it should be great. >> so as joe showed the front page of the wall street journal this morning, reports on how investors rattled by the threat of trade restrictions and a slowing economy, are now turning to a class of defensive play. dividend stocks. and with americans remaining concerned about inflation and the looming threat of tariffs, consumer confidence fell sharply last month, the largest one month drop since 2021. meanwhile, layoffs among u.s. employers in february were up 245% from the

month prior and were at their highest level in nearly five years. this, as cnbc points out, that for seven straight weeks since elon musk went to washington to join the trump administration, shares in his automaker have declined. it's the longest such losing streak for tesla in its 15 years as a public company. >> i mean, i just have to check the numbers again. david ignatius tesla down 45% from its high in mid-december, when, of course, the stock shot up. but but it is fascinating. this is something that we've all been talking about since the election, that we have a strong economy. it's the envy of the world. but we have to be careful. and specifically that the incoming administration has to be careful with talk of tariffs and also instability. and you just you just look at the numbers and you see how stocks have been going up and down and, and, and how erratically things are going.

and now this weekend, even president trump not willing to suggest that his policies might not drive this country into a recession. talk about the impact. obviously, we've seen consumer confidence down. we saw also last week reports that that that people are failing to make payments on their, their, their automobiles on those loans, at least a decade high, a decade long high. talk about it's impacting us here and also around the world. >> so. >> joe. >> i think. investors are reckoning. >> with all. >> the. uncertainties that are part of trump's program. we've had a frantic six weeks, big changes. >> announced every day. >> i think wall street's beginning to wonder. >> just where. >> this leads. the tariff. >> wars in. >> particular, seem. >> to many. >> investors that i talked to. >> to be potentially. >> counterproductive, >> inflationary, the. >> adjustment to. the

manufacturing. economy that trump seems. >> to want. >> could take many. many years. and wall street's worried about that process. back in. >> january, when i was at the davos. >> world economic. >> forum, i. >> remember hearing from several investors. financial markets then were priced to perfection. plus a couple people told me, so when you're at perfection, plus. >> there's a lot of room. >> to slide down. and we're we're seeing that now. and it's interesting. that trump. >> rather. >> than making. >> the usual blandishments. >> about everything's fine, don't worry. >> is saying, yeah. recession may be ahead. >> i can't rule that out. he made a very interesting comment yesterday that i did pay attention to where he said china works on a 100 year cycle of planning, and the united states. goes quarter to quarter, something i've heard from. >> corporate ceos for, for years. >> and i think he's right about that. i mean, that's not to endorse the policies, but we do tend to get so caught up in

these short term movements that we forget about what would be good for the long run in the country. >> but in. >> any event, wall street's. >> got the jitters today. >> yeah. and donald. >> trump clearly trying. >> to do something. >> very big to the. >> american economy. basically bring it. >> onshore. >> almost all manufacturing. >> make. >> it a much. >> more closed off economy. >> that's the kind of thing. >> that's the kind of. >> revolution in an economy. >> that. takes time. >> and i guess he's getting. >> frustrated with already. >> within 6. >> or. >> 7. >> weeks, starting. >> to see the headlines. >> in the wall. >> street. >> journal. >> in the financial times. >> in. >> the economist. >> magazine this. >> week. >> saying that he could. be about to tip the american. >> economy into recession. >> what i'm hearing. >> from people. >> on wall. >> street, mika and. >> joe, is that. >> this was. >> not necessary. the economy was going along fine. but i guess if you're. >> trying to fundamentally. >> overhaul the american economy. >> to make it much. >> more domestic production, a domestic. >> market. >> then you're. >> going to have. >> to have those. >> disruptions. >> and that is the. >> price. >> you're going to pay. and he's. just going. >> to have to. >> hope he can do it quickly enough.

>> which i think is why we're seeing so. >> much speed. >> now that by the. >> time it. >> comes to. >> the election. >> in. >> 2028. voters have forgiven his party. if not. >> him running again. >> right. and by the way, both both are exactly right. i mean, this is this is a transition. and if you're going to bring all of these jobs back onshore, you know, it took 30 years, 40 years of globalization to spread it out. it's going to take more than a year or two to bring it back. and they're going to be costs. but as a great economist, dave chappelle said, and i, i think he may have gone like john maynard keynes to king's college in cambridge. he said, do we really want to buy $9,000 iphones? probably not. >> right. there's that. as the trump administration continues efforts to scale back the federal workforce, we've learned that employees within the department of health and human services have been offered voluntary buyouts to resign from

their jobs. now, according to an administration official, each of the 80,000 employees at the department was sent an unsigned email on friday, offering them as much as $25,000 to resign from their jobs by 5 p.m. this friday, march 14th. the offer comes just days after president trump told his cabinet secretaries to make cuts to their departments, clarifying that they, not elon musk or doge, are in charge of making staffing decisions. >> how fascinating that this happened over the weekend. this happened, and here you have a department doing it again instead of elon musk. that's a pretty dramatic change. >> that is a shift. except maybe there's a little bit of confusion now for people who are getting different messages. and we're now learning that there are new details on that contentious meeting of cabinet secretaries, two people familiar with the exchanges told nbc

news. some of the cabinet secretaries challenged elon musk over doj's approach to cuts in their department, specifically, secretary of state marco rubio and transportation secretary sean duffy, both pushing back on musk for firing their employees without any consideration as to whether letting them go was a good idea in terms of maintaining quality and critical staff. the meeting was a potential turning point after the frenetic first weeks of mr. trump's second term. it yielded the first significant indication that mr. trump was willing to put some limits on mr. musk, whose efforts have become the subject of several lawsuits and prompted concerns from republican lawmakers, of some of whom have complained directly to the president. a spokesperson for the state department did not respond to a request for comment from nbc news, while a white house official said there was no complaining and called the

meeting an open and positive discussion. on friday, nbc's gabe gutierrez asked the president about the reported clash. >> mr. president, since you last spoke about it yesterday. >> some details have come out. >> about your cabinet. >> meeting with elon musk and some. >> clashes potentially between secretary rubio and secretary. diblasio clash. i was. >> there, you're just a troublemaker, and you're not supposed to be asking that question because we're talking about the world cup, but elon gets along great with marco. >> and they're both. >> doing a fantastic job. there is no clash. >> mr. president who bottom. >> line, who are you with? who are you with? >> nbc. >> no wonder nbc. >> has more authority. elon musk. >> or your cabinet secretary. >> any other questions? they're both great guys. and by the way, they both get along fantastically well. marco has done unbelievably as secretary of state. and elon is a very unique guy who's done a fantastic job. >> i like talking, i like talking about the world cup. i mean, make no mistake, it's

coming to the united states. i'm very excited about it. but reporters don't have to just talk about the world cup. so gabe gutierrez asking the right questions there for nbc. >> yeah. >> so, so dathomir jonathan swan and maggie haberman came up with this just explosive reporting a couple of days ago, which nbc confirmed. but it wasn't like it wasn't all kind of, you know, smiles and laughs and daffodils inside that meeting you had marco at one point, secretary of state at one point saying to elon, oh, okay. so the 1500 people that have already taken early retirement, would you like me to hire them back, elon, so you can fire them for show? and then you had sean duffy, according again, to this extraordinary reporting by jonathan swan and maggie haberman, you had sean duffy going, hey, we got planes

crashing and your people are trying to fire air traffic controllers. and elon musk retorted, name one person that got fired. he goes, and duffy responds. the secretary of the treasury of transportation responds, you i can't because i stopped your people from firing them while planes were crashing. so this was this was this was not a happy meeting. it wasn't a happy exchange, but it was. as swan and haberman reported, it was quite possibly a turning point where donald trump is saying, okay, i selected you as cabinet secretaries. you all make the decisions. and elon, you can offer guidance and will be glad to listen to your guidance, and then they will make the final decision. so you've written a piece asking

whether d.o.j. is losing steam. what have you found out over the weekend since this explosive meeting? >> yeah. >> so there are a few things. first of all, a lot of damage control from the white house after that meeting. you just saw president trump there in the oval office talking about it. secretary rubio and elon musk had dinner at mar a lago over the weekend. we saw trump return to washington last night with elon musk on air force one. he also defended the two of them on truth social, trying to downplay or downplay this clash. >> but as. >> i reported, this is this was. >> coming weeks. >> in the making. first of all, president trump had really soured on some of the bad headlines. really. we know how much he pays attention to the media coverage of this, that dating all the way back from that moment. we've discussed on this show when jesse watters on fox news sort of almost very emotionally said, hey, be more careful. >> with these cuts. >> talking about a friend of. his who was going. >> to be eliminated. >> from the. >> pentagon. >> a veteran. >> saying that this needs to change how we're approaching this and other cabinet secretaries for weeks now have complained. >> to. >> the white house and to their own staff, saying musk is disturbing our power. this

should be our decisions on hirings and firings. not saying they're not going to agree with doj's recommendations, not saying they don't agree with the need to reduce the workforce and in some cases dramatically so. but they wanted to have the final say on that, not musk. >> and i'm. >> told white. >> house. officials are seeing these legal challenges, and they've been on the losing end of some of them, in part because there's questions about whether musk has. the authority and doge musk, of course, a special government employee, whether he actually has the ability to fire these staff workers. so, franklin foer. >> there's some thought. >> here that by empowering the cabinet secretaries to be the final say, that might actually. help them get this. through the courts more effectively. eliminate these these positions. you know, musk certainly not going anywhere. people in umort stressed to me. >> all weekend. >> long that he is still a major player. but it does seem like this is the first time he's had his wings. >> clipped a little. >> you know, as we enter this next phase. >> of doge. >> right? >> so if the kind of master

narrative of the first couple of weeks of the trump administration has been the unimpeded power of elon musk, well, then we do have this evidence that he's he's receiving some sort of backlash, some sort of pushback. but i think the fundamental trend still continues, which is that. doge has created an ethos for the entire federal government that. one of. the underlying pillars of the doge strategy is to create a sense of fear and anxiety among federal workers, to drive them out on their own volition. and i think that. we're only beginning to see that happening. >> when, you know, in. >> washington, this is a local story. and like jesse watters, i mean, i think all of us at the table here keep running into people in the federal government who are pondering leaving the federal government. and when i look at these examples of the very good people i know in the government, whether they are at the va doing some sort of very basic medical work, or they're at other agencies where they're

regulating financial markets, the stunning exodus of competence. and capacity is only just beginning. >> coming up, a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning, including a major election in canada, just as president trump ramps up his talk about that country becoming the 51st state. morning joe is back in a moment. >> i can see for miles and >> i can see for miles and miles. i can see for miles and most people call leaffilter when their gutters are clogged and they notice one of the many issues that can bring. sometimes it's the smell of mildew when water has seeped into the interior walls. or maybe they've spotted mold in the attic. but most often it's the more obvious signs of damage like rotten soffit, fascia, or water pooling near their foundation. you can get ahead of costly damage by protecting your home's gutters today. we're in your neighborhood and ready to help. schedule your free gutter inspection today, call 833 leaffilter, or visit leaffilter.com

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>> let's take. >> a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. canada has picked a new prime minister, the governing liberal liberal party elected former central banker mark carney yesterday. carney won in a landslide with nearly 90% of the vote. he will replace prime minister justin trudeau, who announced his resignation in january. trudeau will remain in power until carney is sworn in once in office. carney is expected to call for a federal election, where he will face the leader of the conservative party. >> boy, you. >> talk about a. >> backlash against what's been happening between the united states and canada. the conservative party up there was 20 points ahead, 20 points ahead when donald trump was elected. that's now been cut. and this is

going to be a close race. >> so israel has cut off the electricity supply to gaza in an effort to pressure hamas to agree to extending the first phase of the cease fire. the move impacts the water treatment plant in the enclave. it comes a week after officials halted the entry of aid and goods into gaza. hamas is now calling the tactic a, quote, starvation policy. meanwhile, israeli negotiators are set to head to qatar today to discuss the ceasefire. hamas is pushing to begin phase two, which is supposed to bring an end to the war. but israel wants a temporary truce to secure the release of more hostages. and a memo obtained by the washington post shows the army corps of engineers knew that water released from california reservoirs at president donald trump's direction was unlikely to reach the southern part of the state. the president issued the directive back in january in

the wake of the l.a. wildfires. army officials rushed to execute the plan, even while privately acknowledging the water would never get that far south without coordination with state and federal agencies. coming up, the latest on the high stakes talks in saudi arabia aimed at ending russia's war on ukraine, nbc's keir simmons is there and he brings us an update. when morning joe comes right back. >> you've waited all week for this. let's go. introducing the all new, all electric maximus z from greenworks, the most versatile zero turn utility mower on the planet. with more power, more runtime, and all the versatility of one battery that powers over 75 products, you'll forget all about that. that's quiet power. for a limited time, financing options are available. visit participating retailers or

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here in new york. >> all of this can be overwhelming. >> but it is. important to. >> remember there are still. >> checks and balances. >> there's a lot being thrown. >> at the american people right now, and. >> it is really important to pay attention to it. >> but it is. >> just as important to. >> recognize how many. >> of those things are getting announced. but they're not happening at. >> all. >> or at least. >> not yet. >> just try to. >> remember we are not looking at the final score. we are still. >> in the first quarter. >> keep your pads on. the game has just begun. >> secretary of state marco rubio is in the saudi arabian port city of jeddah today, where he will meet with the saudi crown prince ahead of peace talks tomorrow between u.s. and ukrainian officials. ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy is set to meet later today with the crown prince in the capital of riyadh. it is unclear if zelenskyy will attend the peace discussions tomorrow, aimed at ending the years long war with

russia. nbc news reports that president trump has made clear that a minerals deal with kyiv won't be enough to restart u.s. aid and intelligence sharing, according to an administration official and another u.s. official. trump wants to see a change in zelensky's attitude toward peace talks, including possible territorial concessions, movement toward elections and even potentially, zelensky stepping down. meanwhile, president trump says he still believes russia wants to end the war in ukraine. speaking to reporters in the oval office on friday, the president seemed to defend russia's intense bombing of ukraine and said he believes putin does want peace. >> president putin. >> is bombing ukraine. do you still believe him when. >> he tells you that he wants peace? >> yeah. no, i believe him, i believe him. i think we're doing very well with russia, but right

now they're bombing the hell out of ukraine and ukraine. i'm i'm finding it more difficult, frankly, to deal with ukraine. and they don't have the cards. they don't have the cards. as you know, we're meeting in saudi arabia on sometime next week early. and we're talking. what i find that in terms of getting a final settlement, it may be easier dealing with russia, which is surprising because they have all the cards. i mean, and they're bombing the hell out of them right now. >> let's let's bring in nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons. he's live from keir. first. first of all, your reaction based on your reporting on donald trump, why he keeps saying russia is easier to deal with. and the ukrainians. that's first. secondly, what are you hearing officials expect to happen today. well, the trump administration hasn't really begun dealing with the russians

honestly yet. >> i mean. >> they've had that meeting. there's been that phone call. and you can argue, by the way, joe, that we keep talking about kind of getting around the table in negotiations. negotiations are happening right now. >> but the. >> negotiations. >> really, from the trump administration perspective, has been focused on ukraine. of course, now. president zelenskyy, just just how much of this is a work in progress? >> here's an example. >> you mentioned president zelenskyy coming to riyadh. he's coming here to jeddah. >> now to. >> see the crown prince, mohammed bin salman, who is clearly trying to or is playing the role of a mediator. he brought the us and russia together in riyadh last month and now here with zelenskyy and then the ukrainian delegation meeting with waltz and rubio and the envoy steve witkoff, all flying in today for that meeting to begin here tomorrow. so that, i mean, these meetings in these coming days are crucial. i almost. >> want to say life. >> or death for ukraine. that's probably putting it too

strongly, but not too strongly, because ultimately, if these talks go badly, then it's you're going to expect more pressure on the ukrainians. in terms of your question, joe. i mean, as you know, we were in russia last week and we managed to make it to the kursk region. i mean. >> that area. that area. >> where a small part of it, which now is still held by the ukrainians. >> we saw. >> a lot of military there. russian military. >> were on the russian side. >> are there is there are battles, i mean intense battles taking place. there's video of russians making their way through abandoned gas pipes to try and get to the ukrainians, to fight of drone strikes on ukrainian tanks in that area of kursk. why is that so intense? why is it so important? because the ukrainians. hope to hold that ground in order to negotiate a swap of some kind of territory. >> territorial swap. >> i mean, that's what we. perceive ukrainians want to do. now, if they lose that ground and the russians are clearly determined that they will, then

that obviously changes the negotiation. and that's all important to going back to your question, because ultimately, if you are the kremlin and you think that you are winning in kursk, and you think that you will get that ground back in the weeks, but maybe months ahead, why would you agree to a cease fire now? >> and we'll talk much more about the war in ukraine after a quick break, including how the wall street journal is sizing up the power vacuum now that president trump has stepped back from the world stage. keep it right here on morning joe. >> hopes and dreams are. still surviving on the streets. surviving on the streets. >> look at me. i (♪♪) you know that thing your family does? (♪♪) yeah, that thing. someone made it a thing— way back in the day. but where did it come from? and how did it get aaaall the way to you? (♪♪) curious? ancestry can help you find out... with detailed dna results,

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war effort, written by james morrison, alastair macdonald and michael gordon. the russian army was advancing relentlessly in northeastern ukraine in the summer of 2022. when you when the us tipped the scales with new weapons and crucial battlefield intelligence, the superior accuracy and greater range of m777 howitzer supplied by the us hit back against russia's mostly soviet designed artillery. the us intelligence tipped off ukraine's generals that russia had moved several battalions to another front. david, the weapons and the intelligence has made all the difference in the world for the ukrainians. donald trump has taken those away now from the ukrainians, and he's allowing vladimir putin and the russians to bomb ukraine endlessly, relentlessly. and of course, the

question is, as we were just saying, that hangs over the united states, that hangs over europe, that hangs over the world, is why. what does your reporting show you? >> so exactly. what donald trump's. >> vision is. >> of the way the world works after the settlement that he's seeking so strenuously in ukraine. what the world likes is a mystery. >> former head of british. >> intelligence has said that he thinks. >> trump is heading. >> toward a world of oligarchs, where three strong men, putin, xi and trump kind of divide up the world. maybe that's that's his vision. i do. >> know, joe. >> that in terms of what you were just discussing, the weapons and intelligence that the united states supplied to ukraine in 2022 were absolutely crucial in their being able to push the russians back and survive as a country. >> and the. >> withdrawal of that

intelligence and the cutoff of weapons at a time when ukraine is heading into negotiations in which their very existence is at stake, couldn't be. >> a harsher. >> or crueler tactic by donald trump. i mean, we. >> said earlier. >> that russia trump says russia's been easy to deal with. well, no wonder he's not asking him for anything. meanwhile. he's pounding the ukrainians almost every day. so the ukrainian response, i think we'll see tomorrow in saudi arabia is going to be to say, basically, mr. trump will do this the way you want. you want a minerals. >> deal. >> you got one. you want us to cooperate in negotiations? we'll do it. the real question is whether trump is willing to lean in any way on vladimir putin to get russia into into a peace deal. but right now, this is becoming. really a one sided conflict where russia's ready to roll in eastern ukraine and ukraine doesn't have the intelligence or weapons, alas, to push them back. >> yeah, one. >> sided conflict and one sided

negotiation. >> it looks like a little bit. >> from america's point of view. >> frank. >> you've written. >> a new. >> piece in which you. >> state bluntly. >> that. >> putin has won. >> you talk. >> about historians playing. >> a parlor. >> game called. >> periodization. >> in which they attempt. to define an era by the individual who shaped. >> those times. >> the most. and you're. >> saying that. >> this moment. >> we. >> can and sometimes it's hard to see that in. >> real time. >> but you're saying that right now we. can see. >> it in real time. >> how has. >> putin shaped. >> this era? >> this is the age of putin. when you look just going back even ten years, it's clear that he's had a set of objectives, that he's wanted more sympathetic leaders in the west who would destroy nato and the eu from within. he's wanted to discredit democracy as a rival ideology in order to dismantle the movement for democracy, both at home, in his own country and in neighboring countries and in the rest of the world. he's wanted to make the world safer for oligarchic money. and if we look back, not just at the last

couple of weeks of the trump administration, where things have really accelerated and he's come much closer to achieving his vision of the world. but if we go back, starting with brexit and. looking at the way that the eu has transformed over time and looking at the divisions within nato, you have to say he's not just winning tactically in a place like ukraine, which is so he cares so passionately about because it's the front line of this. but you look at it kind of more globally. you would say he is prevailing all around. >> and more. >> than. >> just in ukraine. >> right. and more than more more than just ukraine. frank. i mean, talk about the disinformation also. i mean, we had russia's disinformation campaign to the united states in 2016, which has been proven over and over again. i mean, you had fights in facebook, you know, headquarters, because actually you had one board member actually explaining to other

board members that that, yeah, russian disinformation had had polluted facebook during the campaign. but we see it not just in hungary. we saw it in poland with the law and justice party. we've seen it in the uk with russian, you know, right wing nationalist disinformation being spread around. of course, we've seen it in france, we've seen it in germany. i mean, he has effectively with, with, with a gdp that's less than texas's gdp. we've seen vladimir putin over the past decade spread disinformation to try to weaken western democracies. he has been effective. and in some cases he's been wildly effective. whether you look at the law and justice party in poland or you look at orban in hungary, who is still a country invaded by the old soviet union, basically doing vladimir putin's bidding in the eu. >> right. >> you go back about ten years,

15 years. vladimir putin started losing at home and in ukraine, and he started to change his tactics. he became he became much more active in trying to manipulate elections abroad. he started to finance political parties illicitly. he started to engage in the disinformation campaigns, exploiting social media. and we don't need to ascribe any magical powers to vladimir putin. a lot of his tactics are pretty ham fisted, and sometimes he's bungled them. but the effect, the net effect, you look at. >> it here. >> and. the way in which we're still debating the russiagate and the russia hoax in the way that this has become an extremely polarizing issue here. that is the goal that he's he. stirred all of this lack of confidence in our democracy. he's exacerbated polarization. he's known where the fissures are in our societies, and he's managed to increase them. >> and with putin's goal.

>> being to sow dissent. among nato here and also here in the united states, he's accomplishing that day after. >> day over. >> the weekend, we had this exchange on twitter x between. poland's foreign minister, poland. >> of. >> course, being one of ukraine's foremost allies in this. >> conflict. >> and marco. >> rubio. >> the u.s. secretary of state, where they got into an argument. with rubio, saying. >> say thank. >> you to poland because of the starlinks that the united states and elon musk helped supply ukraine in this conflict. and again, much like what we heard from vice president vance and president trump in the oval office two weeks ago, demanding that zelensky be. >> more. >> more grateful. and it just the us seems to be as diplomats from both. >> you know, europe. >> and elsewhere have said to me and others in recent days, the united states seems. >> to be putting their thumb on the. >> scale for. >> russia in the last couple of weeks. there's not much high hopes for a settlement any time soon. i know these talks start tomorrow, finally with ukrainian officials, but joe and mika, there's a growing belief here, and trump made it. clear over

the weekend that even that minerals deal, even if that does get signed this week, that. >> might not. >> be enough for the us to resume sharing intelligence with ukraine. there's a suggestion here that zelenskyy is going to need to step aside to start helping again. and perhaps even. >> more than. >> that. again, that goes back to 2019 and that so-called perfect call when donald trump was trying to get dirt on joe biden and the biden family from zelensky. zelensky wouldn't give it. and it's been deeply personal since then. but i must say, for marco rubio, of all people, jonathan, to get into a fight on twitter with a leader in poland, this would be like ronald reagan's cabinet member getting in a fight with a leader of west germany in the 1980s. you have poland, who is the tip of the spear for american for

western democracy. they are on the front lines and everybody knows it. and here we had marco rubio, of course, clip. you could go back and see rubio in 2014 castigating the biden, the obama administration and castigating them for ignoring the treaty that that everybody signed, including putin signed, that if the ukrainians gave up their nuclear weapons, that we would guarantee their sovereignty and guarantee their borders. and it was marco rubio calling upon the administration to step up and say, what a disgrace and how shameful it was. and here you have marco rubio, david ignatius getting into a battle with really are and i'm not just saying it because i'm sitting next to a brzezinski. i'm saying it because, again, poland is now

what west germany was at the height of the cold war. it is just unspeakable that this former cold war warrior would now be going on x attacking the poles. >> it's safe to say that mika's dad would be stunned to. read every headline that discusses the situation in europe. i mean, the world that zbigniew brzezinski and so many generations of american foreign policy leaders sought to create is being undone week by week by the trump administration, and people need to reckon with the cost of it. i mean, the way in which our national security apparatus is being dismantled at the justice department, at the cia, at other agencies. yeah. >> you know, you really. >> begin to wonder about about where the protection will be going forward. i think we'll see this week whether president trump is really serious about

getting to a peace deal in ukraine. that will work. that's fair enough that it won't just blow up in his face. he says he wants peace. he says that's his mission. this week we're going to find out, i think. >> coming up, could the president's trade war trigger a recession? we'll talk about that when cnbc's andrew ross sorkin joins the conversation. morning joins the conversation. morning joe is back in a moment. baby: liberty! mom: liberty mutual is all she talks about since we saved hundreds by bundling our home and auto insurance. biberty: it's pronounced "biberty." baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: nice try, kid. only pay for what you need ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: liberty. dry eyes still feel gritty, rough, or tired? with miebo, eyes can feel ♪ miebo ♪ ♪ ohh yeah ♪ miebo is the only prescription dry eye drop that forms a protective layer for the number one cause of dry eye: too much tear evaporation. for relief that's ♪ miebo ♪ ♪ ohh yeah ♪

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get 50% off your first box at ollie. com. each week, veteran lawyers andrew weissmann and mary mccord break down the latest developments inside the trump administration's department of justice. >> the administration doesn't. >> necessarily want to. >> be questioned. >> on any of. >> its policy. >> maine justice new episodes

drop every tuesday. >> what was. >> it like. >> when trump. >> got elected? what was the. >> i. >> mean, what was the reaction? >> do you think about. ice coming to knock on your front door? >> for president trump's first 100 days, alex wagner travels to the story to talk with people most impacted by the policies. >> were you. >> there on january? >> i was there on january 6th. >> did it surprise you. >> that you were fired, given how resolutely nonpartisan you have been? >> and for more in-depth reporting, follow her podcast, trumpland with alex wagner. >> time now for a look at the morning papers, the telegram and gazette reports. regional vocational schools in massachusetts are witnessing a dramatic increase in student interest as the demand for trade workers increases across the country, one superintendent of a local school told the paper they have had a substantial waitlist for the past five years with,

quote, more than double the amount of interest than we have seats available each freshman year, a shortage of workers across numerous trade labor fields has created lucrative employment options for many career and technical education program graduates. >> i'm hearing that more and more now. you are too. from leaders of every industry saying we need more vocational schools, more vocational. >> the palm beach post reports governor ron desantis wants to end property taxes in his state, but there are few details on how florida would make up the $50 billion in revenue. those taxes fund a number of critical services, including public schools, law enforcement and some utilities, the paper notes. florida does not have a state income tax, and the san francisco chronicle reports on the booming sales of energy alternatives as egg prices have risen to $9 a dozen in california, sales of vegan egg

replacement products have soared, usually being made from mung. bean protein and alternatives mimicking the taste and feel of real eggs. egg prices are up 53% in the past year and are expected to rise another 41% this year. this is the. >> but this is. >> why joe biden and. >> didn't donald. >> trump say it was unpopular and why kamala harris lost? >> i thought trump's. >> egg prices, the eggs are too damn high. >> still ahead, new. >> york times. >> reporter tyler page. >> joins us. >> with his new piece, the populist versus the billionaire. benham must battle within maga. we'll also bring in editor in chief of the economist, zanny minton beddoes, about the state of the economy. as president trump declined to rule out the possibility of recession.

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little bundle of weird by ali. >> experts say that president. >> trump's tariffs. >> will raise. >> the. >> cost of a new. >> car by. >> as much as $12,000. >> or you. >> can. get a free tesla. since people are. >> throwing them away. >> fine. >> all right. welcome to the fourth hour of morning joe. it's 6 a.m. on the west coast, 9 a.m. in the east. >> yeah. >> did i say that right, tj? >> yeah, yeah. >> echo. echo. echo lake park. >> echo park. lake. you know, you get the three words. you know, a lot of natives reverse the word. so i'm really i'm speaking to my friends in los angeles who've been there for 60, 70 years. it's like, you know, natives. they're just florida. >> this is miami. >> okay. that's what the. >> we're. >> going to get straight to the news. >> is that right? that's right. by the way, big news this weekend. and i know you were talking about it an awful lot. alabama crimson tide upset

number one. auburn last second shot by mark sears. very exciting i know a lot of people were here from in boston talking sec basketball. >> yeah no. >> celtics celtics lakers. nah we're. >> not talking celtics lakers. we're talking. >> sec hoops. no college. >> basketball season. >> it's you know. >> we're almost there. >> conference championship game. next weekend. and then march madness. that's when i start really paying attention okay. >> that's when you can tune in. all right. president trump has announced plans to implement even more tariffs in the coming days. another twist in the brewing trade war between some of america's top trading partners. >> you know, it's so fascinating, mika. there is a lot of again, you look at the headlines in the papers today and you look at the wall street journal and in the business section, a lot of concerns about the fact that stocks have had sort of a rocky ride. yeah, a lot of concerns on wall street about all the tariffs. donald trump says it takes a while and

obviously it would. i mean, fed globalization basically since 1979, 1980. that's not going to be reversed in a year or 2 or 4 years. but man, the impact to the economy already pretty great. you even look at tesla stock down 45% in the past month. >> i can't tell you how many people thought he wasn't serious about the tariffs. and i'm like, why? he said it. >> you can take him literally. nb news senior businessiously. correspondent christine romans has the details. >> overnight, president trump doubling down on his. escalating trade war. >> i think the tariffs are going to be the greatest thing we've ever done as a country. >> while not ruling out an upcoming recession in an interview that aired sunday morning. >> are you expecting a recession this year? >> i hate to predict. >> things like that. >> there is a. period of transition because what we're doing is very big. it takes a little time. it takes a little

time. >> while his commerce secretary. >> also spoke out yesterday. >> morning. >> should americans brace for a recession? >> absolutely not. there's going to be no recession in america. >> last night, the president asked again if he was worried. >> about a recession. >> maria bartiromo. >> asked you and you hesitated. >> i tell you what. of course you hesitate. who knows? all i know is this we're going to take in hundreds of billions of dollars in tariffs, and we're going to become so rich, you're not going to know where to spend all that money. >> and the trade war heating up this week. china retaliating with taxes on some. >> american agricultural. goods coming. >> into effect today. and the u.s. will put. >> its. >> tariffs on all foreign. >> steel and aluminum. >> wednesday and. >> is considering. >> more taxes on. >> canadian goods. >> canada has imposed its own tariffs on billions of dollars. >> of american products. and this. >> weekend, its upcoming new prime minister, mark carney, former head of the bank. >> of canada. >> speaking out against. trump

in his victory speech. >> and donald trump, as we know, has. >> put. >> as the prime minister. >> just said, unjustified tariffs on what. we build, on what we sell, on how we make a living. the americans, they should make no. >> mistake in. >> trade, as in hockey canada will win. >> all right. that was nbc's christine romans with that report joining us now we have white house reporter for the new york times, tyler pager, nbc news national affairs analyst and a partner and chief political columnist at puck. john heilemann is with us and editor in chief of the economist. zanny minton. beddoes is with us this morning. great group for the fourth hour here. >> zanny, as as we've talked about this morning, the wall street journal has several stories about investors getting very nervous, starting to take more conservative approaches, fearing that a recession may be on the way. also, of course, the

markets down considerably over the past month. tesla stock itself down 45%. and donald trump not saying that a recession was out of the question. he's talking about this transition, as we said before. you know, we globalization effectively started in 1979 when we opened relations with china. that's not something that gets reversed in a matter of weeks or months or even years, does it? >> no it doesn't. and if you take seriously what he what he says he wants to do, which is to really go back to a system where the us relied on tariffs as a major form of raising revenue. that is, as you say, completely undoing the system of globalization, the system of global trade that was actually set up after the second world war. it is going to be a huge, huge disruption, and we're definitely going to see a big slowdown. we'll probably see a recession. and this is a disruption that will go on for years. and one of the things that's always struck me about president trump is that he he

really believes this. >> i mean. >> i don't understand it. i you know, i work for the economist. we fought for free trade for 180 years. but he does believe it. i think he actually believes that the tariffs will make america great again. and they won't. they're going to cause massive disruption. and that's why we had to have on our cover this week a picture of the president with a gas canister and a dollar bill lit and huge amounts of dollar bills around, because that is the risk he is taking with the us economy. it's really extraordinary that it's going forward like this. >> yeah. >> well, you know, john heilemann, a lot of people talk about how president trump changed his positions based on political expediency. he certainly i mean, pick, you know, pick your topic if you want to if you want to talk about abortion or you want to talk about some of these major issues that drive the republican base, you could you could find that. but zany is dead on here. you can go back and find interviews with donald trump talking to larry king on cnn in

1987. you can have him talking to, i think it was deborah norville in 1989 on the today show, saying the identical exact sort of things, not only about trade but also about nato, that he's saying 40 years later. so this i mean, this is something that he believes deeply. and i guess my question is this because it's the transition will be a long transition and it will be painful. how, you know, how long can donald trump absorb the hits that he's sure to receive in his approval ratings? if this transition gets as rocky as it's likely to get? just just because of basic economic forces and the unwinding of 40, 50 years of globalization. well, joe. >> let's be clear. >> and my. >> my, my. >> old pal. >> zanny minton beddoes knows

more about economics. >> on a. >> random tuesday. >> i'll know in my entire. yes. right. but i think zanny. >> would agree with. >> me if i said the following thing. >> the global system of trade is. >> never going to be undone. >> it's not a. >> question of a long transition. the globe, the. economy of that. >> you can raise the cost. >> of it on. >> a given economy. >> you can. >> lower the cost of it. you can make trade. >> more seamless. >> it's not globalization is not going away. the supply chains are. >> that run. >> to make an apple iphone. >> to make any complex product. >> in the world run across. multiple countries. >> there's a reason for why it works that way. >> because of a thing called. >> comparative advantage. >> the raw minerals. >> come from one place. >> processing comes from another. >> place that is never. >> going to get unwound. >> and so the only question is, is how. >> efficient the markets are. >> and who pays for the inefficiencies. >> and the. >> reality is, donald. >> trump for the last two. >> years has talked about. tariffs as if tariffs would be

paid by the countries. that they were being. >> imposed on. it is only. >> recently started. >> to. >> apparently dawn. >> on him that when a tariff is imposed, we. >> have no. control over countries, companies operating in. >> foreign markets. >> we can't impose. tariffs in a foreign country. >> we don't run the. >> laws of those countries, of those. >> sovereign nations aren't affected. by us. >> the only person. >> who could pay a tariff is. >> an american consumer. >> in the form of essentially a. >> tax in terms. >> of higher prices. >> his economics, joe. >> are not sophisticated. and the thing you're right about. >> though, is. >> that he has been a protectionist, an. isolationist and. >> a mercantilist. since long. >> before he. ever thought about getting. >> into politics. he's not going to let go of this. >> easily. >> but the pressure. >> on him politically. >> as the price. >> rises is going to be extreme, and it's going to come a lot faster. >> if he sticks. >> by these tariffs and doesn't walk. >> away. >> from them. >> slowly without admitting. >> he's doing it, the. price is going to be severe. it's going to be fast and he's going to

buckle to it, because. >> that's the thing. >> he cares. >> about most of all, which is what do the markets say? what do the polls say? what are my numbers look like today? >> john, i completely agree with you. this is going to this system is going to is not going to be easily unwound. but and you're not going to be making a bunch of things in the us that are currently made in china or in southeast asia, but you can do a huge amount of damage. and if you look back at the 1930s when the us imposed the smoot-hawley tariffs and it wasn't the cause of the depression, but it was a big part of what went on in the 1930s. and part of the problem was that you had retaliation from other countries. other countries are not just going to sit back and let the us impose tariffs and, and do nothing in response. so you will have retaliation and then you'll have this tariffs upon tariffs upon tariffs, and you will break up what has really been the underpinning of postwar prosperity, which is this international system where countries have the same tariff broadly on every country, on every they have the same tariffs across other countries. and that when you lose that most favored nation, that's what the jargon

is. and you start having these bilateral tariffs, you know, on april 2nd, president trump is threatening to bring in a whole massive reciprocal tariffs. that sounds reasonable, right? reciprocal tariffs. actually it unwinds this whole system. it's going to be complete chaos for importers, complete chaos for those supply chains that you're talking about. so you're right. the whole system of globalization isn't going to crash tomorrow. and the rest of us and the rest of the world will probably try and keep things going, but there's going to be enormous amounts of damage for the us and for everyone else. >> wow. let's bring in the co-anchor of cnbc's squawk box and new york times columnist andrew ross sorkin. that is quite an economic outlook. >> and andrew also knows more about. >> yeah. >> the economy he does and economics. >> he's too big to fail. >> then i learned in my one year of taking econ 101 at the university of alabama. >> would you get in that? >> i think probably a c i was, but but you know, if you had quizzed me on the sports illustrated articles i was reading on the back row, i probably would have gotten an a

plus. yeah, maybe a gentleman's a minus. so, andrew. you've been hearing the conversation about the tariffs. and again this is not this is not a conversation about we're not talking about the politics so much as how economically unfeasible it is because it is so complicated. if you even talk about cars, as you've talked about, about 35% of car parts are made in the united states, scattered in other places, because other places make it cheaper, other places may make it better. but noted economist and i brought this up in the first hour, and i know you studied him a great deal when you were studying economics in college. but noted economist dave chappelle asked the question to his audience, do we really want to pay $9,000 for an iphone? there are just some things that americans are not going to put up with, regardless of what the treasury secretary says, he's a billionaire. maybe

he thinks that cheap consumerism is not a god given right for americans, but don't tell that to american consumerism, to american consumers. they won't believe it. well, look, zanny just mentioned smoot-hawley back in 1930. and if you go look at the numbers, global trade. >> a year later had. >> dropped by 60%. >> just think about that. a drop. of 60% around the world because of those. reciprocal tariffs, by the way. you go back even just a couple of years and start to look at washing machines in this country. and the decision to bring that back in the u.s, what did that cost americans who wanted a washing machine somewhere between ten and in some cases, 50% more, is what they ultimately paid for that washing machine. so i think there's big questions about this. i think the real question is, come april 2nd, what are we really talking about? are we talking about tariffs on mexico and canada? are we talking just about strategic tariffs maybe on

china in some way? of course we have had some of those tariffs before. and so i think that is the big question of what's holding back investment now. because all of this uncertainty is 100% holding back investment decision making. all of it is everybody sitting on their hands is what does this really look like? and even if the tariffs go on april 2nd, the question is do they stay on? and as john heilemann said, there is a political calculus because at some point there will be midterms. and depending on what you think is going on in this economy, does trump decide? i'm taking them off. i'm putting them on. i need to change the dynamic all over again. >> yeah. >> and this, of course, is related to some of the new reporting, tyler, that you've been doing, the new piece you coauthored for the new york times, focuses on the growing tensions within maga world, carrying the headline. >> the populist. >> versus the billionaire. bannon, bannon, musk in the battle within maga. the fight here, of course, about globalists and how they view the economy. that's part of it. you write in part this, the long standing animus between mr.

bannon and mr. musk encapsulates a key tension at the heart of mr. trump's make america great again movement. it pits those, like mr. bannon, who want mr. trump to carry out a more. fully populist agenda against ultra wealthy interests, epitomized by mr. musk, who occupied key positions in the president's orbit. mr. trump has made clear he wants to keep both men and their allies within his movement. but mr. bannon's vocal disdain for mr. musk has been noticed by the president. in mid-february, the president told mr. bannon that he wanted him to lay off the attacks on mr. musk and for the two men to sit down privately, according to two people familiar with the comments. that meeting has not happened yet, and it's not clear when or if it will. so, tyler, you. >> know. >> we you know. we. >> know that bannon, you know, still an outside advisor to the president. they speak occasionally. his war room podcast is listened by many listened to by many in the west wing. it seems like he's pulled

his punches on musk. you know, he's hit him a couple of times. >> but not. >> the full. >> throated way that we. >> know steve. >> bannon can when he wants to go after someone. so tell us a. little bit more here about the state of this relationship. do we think that meeting is ever going. >> to happen? >> yeah, that's a big question john. and it's unclear that it will. >> and i. >> think one. >> of the things that's really interesting about this relationship. and this this, this fight between the two of them. >> is what it tells us about donald trump and the broader republican. >> party and the movement and. >> trump's effort to try to keep. both of these sort of. >> opposite poles. >> inside the coalition. >> inside the. tent and. >> sort of tamp. >> down on these attacks. but, you know, as you noted and. >> read. >> from the piece, these two men have have vastly different views. and one of them, i think, comes down to sort of the ideological drive of them. steve bannon has been preaching about populism for, for, for many years, has sort of. >> been at. >> the vanguard of that movement to move the republican party in that direction. elon musk is not somebody who was even a republican a few years ago, definitely not a trump

supporter. during the first term, i heard from people that heard directly from. from elon musk, who was very critical of trump's approach on tariffs, on sort of his disdain for the globalization and the global economy that many of elon musk's businesses depend on. now, we've obviously seen, obviously seen this full transition of musk. into someone that is a full throated donald trump supporter. and so it's just interesting to observe this dynamic unfold, particularly against the backdrop of the economics that we're talking about here and how, you know, trump's tariff policy is going to impact billionaires like elon musk, who are quite concerned about not just investment, but but the stock market as well, which which, as many guests have mentioned, is a huge concern of donald trump. he ran in 2024 on this economic argument. blaming joe biden for inflation, blaming joe biden for a whole cost for inflated goods across the board. and so as we see costs go up here in america, it'll be quite interesting to see not just how donald trump responds, but how republican politicians and their

voters respond as well. >> you know, it's crazy, john heilemann, that we just showed a picture of donald trump, elon musk in the background, and jd vance, and you feel like asking which one of these do not belong because you had steve vance a couple of years ago in his in his little silicon valley vest, talking about how much he loved san francisco and silicon valley and, you know, multinational, you know, globalist. the same thing with elon musk. and so the friction here isn't just made up. this isn't just like somebody like trying to gain power. i can think of few people less suited to help run the maga movement than the two i mentioned, like elon musk. i mean, the whole populist fight is against globalists, billionaires, multinational

corporations, monopolies, which which a lot of these tech companies now basically are monopolies. and they aren't that. they don't believe in nationalism. they believe they are bigger than any nation, that they are their own standalone nation state. so again, i'm just not sure how these two forces are balanced in the maga universe moving forward. well, look, i mean, joe, that that tension. >> between which is embodied by the tension between musk and elon musk and steve bannon, who have been fighting. publicly and in some cases viciously now. >> since december. >> when the first. >> kind of debate about h-1b visas came out and it. >> became clear that. >> elon musk was like every other. >> person in silicon. valley who believes deeply. >> in immigration, especially. >> for high skilled workers. >> and steve bannon, who wants to basically stop. >> all immigration in the united states. >> they started fighting. then the tension has ebbed and flowed

in public. but in private, it's been intense. and this reporting by maggie and john, jonathan swan, that that that put elon on his back foot. >> bannon immediately. >> seized on that. >> i think this is. >> a in the long run. >> this. >> is one of the great tensions governing the trump 2.0 era. and also about. >> kind of the what the. >> key. >> choices that trump has to make. >> and i got to say. >> you know, but elon musk is a is an incredibly rich guy. although he's. >> getting less. >> rich by the day, the man has lost $180. >> billion off. >> of his. net worth. >> as tesla's the tesla shares have. >> tanked 100. that's that's even. >> big money to you, joe. $180 billion in net worth. >> that's like that's some. serious some serious business there. >> i. >> i and like. >> as that. >> as that. >> is that. >> has started to happen. you know bannon he's. very rich. he's got control of x. >> they give. >> those are big assets to donald trump. but i.

>> got to. >> say how long. >> elon musk is going to. >> want to continue. >> to. >> to see. >> people attacking tesla dealerships. >> around the. >> country, lighting tesla charging. stations on fire, painting swastikas. >> on the sides. >> of tesla. >> dealerships, and seeing the. stock price. >> plummet that way, impacting. >> his. personal wealth. i don't know. >> and the other thing i. >> know is you never count out. >> steve bannon in one. >> of. >> these fights because he is the embodiment of the maga base. >> and without the maga. >> base, there. >> is no. >> donald trump. >> yeah, well, i don't know if donald trump would say that, but yeah, don't count out steve bannon in a fight over, you know, what lies at the heart of maga. and tyler, i'm just curious. of course, the vandalism at the tesla dealerships absolutely horrifying. it's terrible and should be condemned and i but i don't think stock stockholders of tesla is concerned about that, as they are about the fact that his politics is really

getting in the way of his bottom line. you look at why, i guess in germany and france, sales have plummeted by 70, 75%. his his stock has fallen 45% over the past month since he really started getting involved in the doge activities, his approval ratings plummeting, especially young among younger, younger americans. how much longer is he going to going to stay in this fight? >> that's the question a lot of people in washington, joe, are asking. and it's interesting. i've talked to some close bannon allies and acolytes to write this story. and one of the things that some of them told me was that there was they saw maybe some benefit in elon musk as sort of a heat shield for donald trump, that a lot of the animus and criticism would be targeted at elon musk, and he would be able to carry out some of the president's agenda without the president taking a hit in terms of his own approval rating. i think the meeting that my colleagues, maggie haberman and jonathan swan reported on last week about the contentious

meeting between elon musk and the cabinet secretaries that john just mentioned, showed that maybe that heat shield idea is not working as well as some of these republicans had hoped for, and that the negativity and the criticism directed at elon musk is reflecting poorly on republicans. we've seen republicans shy away from town halls across the country because of some of these, you know, outbursts from constituents who are very concerned about the cuts to government services that they're already seeing. so, i think, you know, obviously, we know donald trump is very concerned about his approval rating, his poll numbers, and it seems unlikely that he will allow elon musk to hurt his own brand. and politics. we've seen sort of this, you know, donald trump trying to tamp down on any concern or speculation that there's fighting between the cabinet. we saw he had a meal with marco rubio and elon musk over the weekend at mar-a-lago, trying to push back against the idea that there's dissension among his, his top aides. but it is very clear that elon musk is having an impact on donald

trump's presidency. and how long donald trump will be able to withstand. that is a big, open question. >> new york times white house reporter tyler pager, thank you. his new reporting, of course, online right now and tyler's new book, 2024 how trump retook the white house and the democrats lost america, comes out in july. tyler. thank you. >> and just for the record, right now, this morning, jonathan lemire passed along to me right now, marco rubio and elon musk texting or tweeting sweet nothings to each other on x. how exciting. i want to ask two people on this show that actually do an awful lot about economics, about about where the investing class is on donald trump. steve rattner last week wrote a piece in the new york times saying while they're concerned about some of the chaos, most of his business friends still are supportive of donald trump. but you look at the front page of the wall street journal where he investors are starting to play

defense. we're reading it absolutely everywhere, concerned about the growing chaos. andrew, what are you hearing on the street? well, i think there's absolutely a weariness. i mean, the question is, is this a temporary situation, as the president has tried to describe, or is this a longer term issue where we could, as zanny said, move into a recession, that that is where we are right now, which is if these tariffs, i think, continue apace and the uncertainty remains, it's almost impossible to see this not turn, turn down if things reverse themselves. and maybe, you know, trump does all sorts of other things to try to boost the economy, which i think is still a possibility. things could things could go the other way. so i don't think people know necessarily. but, you know, trump is right about this. in the short term, there is going to be pain. >> that is certainly true, andrew. i'm probably slightly more pessimistic than you are in that. i think everything we've

seen in the last few weeks of how he he behaves is that he can't resist the tariffs as threats of them, as tools of threats, and he believes in them. so i think there's going to be uncertainty even if there isn't a barrage on april 2nd, we won't know if there will be more after that. i think this is not something that's going to go away. and i think that uncertainty, coupled with an even greater degree of uncertainty on his foreign policy, which we haven't talked about, but which for those of us in europe is really freaking us out, means that i think people are generally the uncertainty is sword about the us economy. and so that's one of the reasons why people are taking it, taking their money out. foreigners. >> editor, editor in chief of the economist, zanny minton beddoes and cnbc's andrew ross sorkin. thank you both very much for coming on the show this morning. and coming up, a look at this morning's must read opinion pages, including david french's latest piece in the new york times entitled the maga culture war comes for georgetown law. >> and mika got to say. also

this past week, you've had an extraordinary event. know your value. forbes teamed up for your annual women's day conference in abu dhabi, 3050. you had war photographers there that had won the pulitzer prize. just telling extraordinary stories. of course, ursula von der leyen celebrated. she was a little busy. >> so my brother spoke in her. >> honor, in her honor, so she could, which was a nice turnabout because she always talked about interviewing your father in 2002 and being too nervous to ask questions. well, a lot has changed since 2002, but it was a global event. and just, again, just an extraordinary moment. >> fourth year and we had so much growth. we had women this year from 46 different countries. we increased the number of countries represented. we had a massive increase in participation, both regional and international, creating understanding between cultures,

cross cultural cross, generational mentoring, finding ways to lift women up. sheryl lee ralph received the know your value award and she took the house down. we're going to have her speech for you a little later in the week, but right now i want to show you some words from the minister of state at the uae ministry of foreign affairs, her excellency noura bint mohammed al kaabi. she spoke so eloquently about the importance of our summit and how the uae is helping to cultivate the next generation of women leaders. her sister, doctor fatima al kaabi, received our hometown heroine award for her work in spearheading stem cell treatment to patients in the uae. so as we go to break, here is some of the minister of state's opening remarks at our gala tonight. >> i want to. >> highlight the. uae's firm belief and guiding principle of

harnessing the potential of women. we know that when women. >> succeed. >> families, communities. >> and ultimately. >> the nation thrives. my own journey. >> has been. fueled by visionary. >> leaders and. >> peers, including men who believed in my potential. i stand here. not as an exception, but as an. >> example of. >> what can happen. >> when a nation invests. >> in women. working alongside men to. achieve shared aspirations. >> this commitment to empowering women extends. beyond our borders and personal growth on a global scale. >> events like this. >> remind us that. genuine progress happens through mentorship. and cooperation across. >> generations and borders. >> to those. >> gathered here. >> tonight, especially. >> young women. >> poised at the start of. your careers, your ideas are vital. your voices are. >> powerful. >> and your contributions. are

essential. >> this is. >> your moment. >> to step. >> forward boldly by. >> succeeding. >> each of. >> you will. >> help your. >> nation lead no matter. >> where. >> where. >> you can call home. here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need, and the flavor you love. so, here's to now... now available: boost max! my husband dean always worried that his diabetes would keep him from enjoying retirement but dexcom g7... has made it easy for dean to manage his sugar levels... and spend more time in range. we're feeling good about the future... wherever it takes us. (vo 1) about 1 in 5 people with fatty liver disease have nash which can lead to cirrhosis. we're feeling good about the future... (man) i thought i had fatty liver disease but it's actually nash and it's scarring my liver.

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>> way to bank and get. >> up to $500 in five minutes o. >> less. >> when. >> you download. >> dave three. >> welcome back. time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines. this morning. >> the world. >> health organization is warning. >> of a possible. >> global surge. >> in tuberculosis cases and deaths due to. >> the cuts. at usaid. >> secretary state. >> rubio confirming. those cuts. >> 83% this morning. >> until recently, usaid provided. >> about a quarter. >> of the international donor funding for tuberculosis services in other countries. >> up to. >> $250 million annually. tuberculosis is responsible for the most deaths of any

infectious. >> disease. >> around 1.25 million people. >> died from the bacterial. >> infection in the year 2023. elsewhere. >> most of the flights. >> in and out of germany. >> have been. >> canceled today. >> because of a strike by workers at 13 airports there. the 24 hour surprise walkout. which reportedly took place, was only about. >> a half. >> hour advance notice, is over a pay dispute. >> more than 40,000. >> passengers have been affected, and thousands. >> of people. >> monitoring a 24. >> hour eagle nest cam in southern california were delighted saturday. morning by the hatching. of a third chick. >> the baby. >> bald eagle poked. >> through its shell just. >> after 2 a.m, before fully. >> emerging a few hours later. >> it comes. >> days after the. hatching of its two of its siblings, jamaica. finally. >> a little good news. oh. >> i love it. >> little good news. >> oh. >> so cute. okay. time now for.

look. how adorable. >> okay, we've lingered on that a little too long. >> i know, but it's so cute. all right. time now for some of the. >> must read. it was beautiful. i was. >> i was. >> i was touched by that. >> no. if you watch the whole thing, she, like, announces that they've hatched. and then. >> it. >> was husband comes over. >> it was really something. >> it's just something. >> all right. >> all right, let's go. >> all right. time now for some of the must read opinion pages. new york times columnist david french has a new piece entitled the culture war comes for georgetown law. and he writes in part, this. this might sound like a funny thing to say, but i've rarely read a more unconstitutional letter. on monday, ed martin, the interim u.s. attorney for the district of columbia, sent the dean of georgetown university law center, a catholic law school, a letter that said, it has come to my attention reliably, that georgetown law school continues to teach. and. promote dei. this

is unacceptable. martin said that he'd begun an inquiry into the school and demanded to know whether it had eliminated all dei, which he does not define, but in right wing circles tends to refer to any action at all. designed to increase diversity or honor historically marginalized people from the school and its curriculum. he also asked if dei is found in your courses or teaching in any way, will you move swiftly to remove it? even a first year law student knows that the federal government cannot dictate the viewpoint and curriculum of a private christian school. yet here was a federal prosecutor opening an inquiry. >> unbelievable. >> into a jesuit school. protected. >> believable. >> hello.

>> oh my god. and these are the same people like that have constantly. i constantly said, how can you interfere on a catholic institutions ability to do what they're guided by their their moral conscience to do? and we're getting a letter to a jesuit institution, a christian institution saying you must do this. you must do that. it's unbelievable. >> they know a thing or two about the law. >> here's what the other side of the dean responded. dean trainor, your your letter informs me that your office will deny our students and graduates government employment opportunities until you, as interim united states attorney for the district of columbia, approve of our curriculum. given the first amendment's protection of the university's freedom to determine its own curriculum and how to deliver the constitutional violation behind

this threat is clear, as is the attack on the university's mission as a jesuit. look up what the jesuits believe in a jesuit and catholic institution. this is unacceptable, he said. >> it is. >> i. >> i. >> i don't know how to where to begin here. john heilemann, like this is again, as david french said, a guy who actually knows constitutional law, a constitutional lawyer, and has spent his life, his adult life, actually fighting for the rights of religious institutions. it is shocking that the interim u.s. attorney would send a letter to

georgetown saying, we are going to punish you unless you teach what we tell you to teach. i a seriously, this is also, of course, the same interim u.s. attorney that decided he was going to open an investigation against the top democrat in the united states senate, chuck schumer. the list goes on and on and on. but again, anybody who knows anything about jesuit education will tell you that the last thing jesuits deal with are being told, you must teach in this narrowly confined area. it's really it's shocking for that reason. it's shocking because they're doing it to a private christian school. and it is shocking that that that they're doing it because of the first amendment. so much in. >> this story, joe. speaking of

someone who was educated, unbelievable by jesuits. i it's incredible. >> let's just focus on. >> two pieces of this. >> one is the ed martin piece. right? which is not only is he opened an investigation of chuck schumer, you know, he posted on, on social media that one statement related to, i believe the ap case. the administration's anger about. >> the ap and the press pool. and he said this thing. >> where he said, you know, as he referred to his office as donald. >> trump's lawyers. which of. >> course, so profoundly misunderstands the nature of. >> what we've thought of as as the jobs of us attorneys and the jobs of the justice department. they are. >> not donald trump's lawyers. >> they're not the president's lawyers. he has lawyers. they are the lawyers. >> for the united states of america. so and. >> this is a. >> guy, of course, as you know. >> the interim. u.s. attorney for the washington, dc, who. >> was a. >> big defender of the of. >> the january 6th rioters. >> someone who. >> was. >> a big part of the stop the. >> steal movement. so there are a lot of. >> questions to ask.

>> he's he's reflective. >> of. >> a problem that is a profound problem going on in the administration right now, related to. >> how the justice department is used. >> to pursue. >> political ends. >> and that. >> is certainly. >> what's going on here with georgetown. >> but there's a whole. >> other piece. >> to this that gets. beyond jesuits. >> and goes to the. >> way in which the administration is going after universities to pursue. >> not just. >> jesuit ones. and on other topics. >> you know, we saw over the weekend that the. >> first there's. >> ten, i believe. >> on the administration's. watch list. because they haven't done they they haven't done enough about anti-semitism. >> so $400. >> million of federal. >> grants and funding. >> to columbia university. now we can have. >> different points of view. anybody can argue. >> about anti-semitism on. >> campus, about what has or hasn't. >> happened at columbia university. but i do not think. >> that anyone who is. >> a constitutionalist. >> either. >> in the. >> legal sense or in the philosophical sense, thinks that what we want. >> is an administration. >> going around. from school to

school. and pulling their funding. >> if those. >> schools haven't done, quote, enough. to pursue what. >> the. >> administration thinks. >> is the. right course of action related to. speech on campus, there are real problems in that area. but the heavy hand of the federal government is clearly not the way to solve them. >> yeah. >> no john hammond right there. and that's not the only headline, major headline coming out of columbia university in the last couple of days. a former university graduate student has been arrested for his role in last year's pro-palestinian student movement. mahmoud kahil, a legal permanent resident united states, was arrested for allegedly violating president trump's executive order combating anti-semitism. khalil described his role in the campus protests as a negotiator and a spokesperson for columbia's pro-palestinian group. a lawyer for khalil told the new york times she is not sure where her client is being held, but told that he. but that. >> he was told. >> that his student visa was

being revoked. however, khalil does not have a visa. he is a green. card holder, which. >> has. >> a lot more. >> protections as john mentioned. this comes as the trump administration also recently revoked $400 million in grants and contracts to the university for allegedly failing to protect jewish students on campus. the lawyer says he has no idea where. khalil is. a lot of democrats. >> free speech. >> advocates really upset as to what happened here. unclear where he is. we, of course, will stay on this story. >> which. >> really took off on social media over. >> the weekend. >> still ahead here. >> a look. >> at the triumphs. >> and tumults. >> of npr. our next guest is detailing how the nonprofit broadcast organization created what he says. is a. medium for extraordinary journalism. that's straight ahead here. >> on. >> morning joe. >> but all i heard. who was. a. drone. bouncing off a satellite,

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healthy, tasty bite and the evidence. wagging tails. >> each week, veteran lawyers andrew weissman and mary mccord break down the latest developments inside the trump administration's department of justice. >> the administration doesn't. >> necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy. >> main justice. new episodes drop every tuesday. >> all of this can be overwhelming. >> but it is. >> important to remember. >> there are still. >> checks and balances. >> there's a lot being thrown. >> at the american people right now, and it. >> is really. >> important to. >> pay attention to it. >> but it is. >> just as important to. >> recognize how many. >> of those things are getting announced. but they're not happening at all, or at least.

>> not yet. >> just try to remember we are not. >> looking at the. >> final score. we are. >> still in the. >> first quarter. keep your pads on. the game has just begun. >> i hate. >> to turn up. >> out. >> of the. >> blue uninvited. >> but i. >> couldn't stay away. i couldn't. >> fight it. i'd hoped. >> you'd see my face. >> and that you'd be reminded. >> that for. >> me. >> it isn't. over. >> never mind. >> i'll find someone. >> like. >> you. >> that was grammy award winning artist adele back in 2011, performing her hit song someone like you as part of the npr tiny desk concert series. the success of the tiny desk franchise, along with npr's growing podcast empire, have fueled the public broadcaster's success in the

21st century. but now the future of the organization is in doubt, with the trump administration eyeing cuts to federal spending. in january, trump's fcc chair, brendan carr, launched an investigation into npr urging congress to cut the public broadcaster's funding altogether. last year, the new york times obtained internal documents showing npr drawing a weekly audience of about 42 million listeners. joining us now, journalist steve oney. he's the author of the new book entitled on air the triumph and tumult of npr. it chronicles the public broadcaster's complicated 55 year history while looking toward its uncertain future. >> and yeah. >> steve, why don't we start there? what is the how does the future look for npr? >> well. if i could tell you that. i would be. a seer. and i'm not a seer. >> i'm a. >> mere mortal. but they're

going to face a rocky. >> road in. >> the future. and every 17 years, it's like the. cicadas returning. generally, when there's a republican uptick in power, someone comes after npr finances. the last time was in 2011, after the juan williams firing by npr. before that, newt gingrich in 1995 said he would zero out the corporation for public broadcasting. and prior to that, ronald reagan came after them in the mid 80s. so each time npr survived. but the world has changed greatly. and we don't have the kind of stability in the media landscape that was there even in 2011. so we'll find out. sorry to be so equivocal, but we'll find out. >> what's the difference now in the battle that they're facing in 2025 and say in previous times and, you know, going back

to ronald reagan, even richard nixon. >> well, nixon really went after pbs. npr wasn't quite on nixon's radar. but in 1995, when newt gingrich went after public broadcasting, what he found out was that the way that translated out in the country is he was coming after all these towns and cities in america that have beloved npr or pbs members. and so it was like he was attacking the local communities. and there was an amendment in congress, and it was shot down by a 2 to 1 vote. and i think what's changed is we no longer have this idea of our information is stovepiped, and we don't live in a world where. walter cronkite could come on the evening news and say, that's the way it is. we don't agree on how it is anymore. and people get news that tends to confirm their predispositions and. >> their biases. >> so npr is still trying to play it down the middle, still doing it the old fashioned way.

and we'll see if there's an audience for it. i think there is. but that's what they're going to come up against. >> well, i mean, you look still. it's extraordinarily important in the heartland where the dwindling of local newspapers, local news sources, so many people in middle america where i grew up, still listen to npr to get their news. that's one part of it. but i've got to say also, and you talk about this, the development of the like, these massively successful podcasts like this american life, i mean, is, is what, three, 3.5 million listeners a week? >> this american life is a juggernaut, but this american life is not part of npr. this american life is independently operated. npr actually rejected this american. >> life when ira. >> glass pitched it to them, a multimillion dollar mistake. they didn't know it at the time, but most listeners out there in radio land don't make that distinction. their public radio stations are treasures. and

you're right, with small town newspapering going the way of the vacuum tube to use an old. radio technology. what what else is there? public radio presents the news. i grew up in a flyover state, too. i grew up in georgia. joe, don't hold that against me as a gator bama man. but it's where i. >> was born. georgia. >> well, then. then we're on the same page. yeah. >> yeah, you. >> are exactly. so? so what do you expect to happen next in this this battle between the administration and npr? >> you know. >> the last fight, the juan williams fight. jon stewart said a very funny thing on. his comedy central show. he said, npr, you got in a fight with fox news and the republicans, and you brought a tote bag full of david sedaris books to a knife fight. and it was very funny,

and he got a lot of laughs. and i think this time npr needs to bring a knife to the fight. npr needs to stand up, declare its purposes, declare its value, and not assume anything. and it's going to be a public relations test as much as anything else. and i think the administration, if they go after npr, will find, as you say, joe, that there are a lot of people out there in every town in america who turn on morning edition and all things considered every day because it's what they have. it ties the country together. it's a the book. >> the inspiration for the. >> book is really david mccullough's great books about american projects like the path between the seas, his book about the building of the panama canal. and i think of. npr as being a great american project. and i set out to write a history of it, where it came from. who are these people? how does it work? >> so the new book, on air, the

triumph and tumult of npr, goes on sale tomorrow. author steve oney, thank you so much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> thank you so much, steve. thank you. and all right. and we'll be right back. and as we get a break, i wanted to show you that i do i do have a heart, and i do care. sometimes i care too much. let's go ahead and go back to that bald eagle shot. >> yes. they're so cute. >> and we'll do it from a different angle. >> the babies? >> yes. >> oh, this means war. you sea. fly like an eagle. let my spirit carry me. i used to. get in your carry me. i used to. get in your country. right to the here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein,

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coterie. >> that was not the eagles that i was expecting. >> to see. >> but it was. >> it was beautiful. >> it was very moving. the babies. we all learned that we always have this, like what we learn today. yeah. and what we what i learned is this american life airs on npr, has a big audience not owned by npr. it's the pat mcafee model right now, espn. jonathan. >> yeah. >> that was that was news to me as well. the other thing i've learned right now, the market's. still pretty unhappy with all the economic news and plans coming out of washington, opening up lower again this morning down a few hundred points. we of course. >> were watching that. >> there you go. we can see it right there. about 300 points as we absorb more tariff news. >> all right okay. >> that does it for us this morning. we'll be back bright and early tomorrow. >> i can't wait. >> i'm ana cabrera picks up the coverage. >> a longer. >> shot right now. >> need a bigger boat? yeah. need a. >> bigger boat right now. >> on ana. >> cabrera report. >> second comic