>> got elected? what was the i mean. what was the reaction? do you. >> think about ice. >> coming to knock on your front door. >> for president trump's first 100 days? alex wagner travels to the story to talk with people most impacted by the policies. >> were you there on january 3rd? >> i was there on. >> january 6th. >> did it surprise you. >> that you were. >> fired? given how resolutely nonpartisan you have been? >> and for more in-depth reporting, follow her podcast. trumpland with alex wagner. >> well. >> good to be with you. i am katy tur. take a look at the dow. we're going to put it up on the screen. right now. it is down over a thousand points 2%. continuing the sell off we watched last week, both the s&p 500 and the nasdaq dropped to their lowest levels since september as investors are gripped by new recession fears, which, by the way, were stoked by the president himself. here he was with fox business over

the weekend. >> are you. >> expecting a recession. >> this year? >> i hate to predict things like that. there is a period of transition because what we're doing is very big. we're bringing wealth back to america. that's a big thing. and there are always periods of it takes a little time. >> and even when president presented excuse me with the opportunity to walk back his comments, the president repeated them. here he is. last night on air force one. >> are you worried about a recession? >> maria bartiromo asked you, and you kind of hesitated. >> i'll tell you what. of course you hesitate. who knows? >> right. >> we're going to put up the dow, this little box on the right hand side of your screen, left hand side of your screen. actually, we're going to make it bigger right now. there you go. down over a thousand points. 2.5% is what it's approaching right now. what is going on here despite all of this and this major sell off, the plan from

the president is still to levy more tariffs, not less, which means our chief trading partners are doing the same. canada announced a 25% surcharge on electricity exports to the us. and today, china imposed new retaliatory tariffs of their own. these on american farm products, including 15% tariffs on chicken, wheat, corn and cotton, and 10% tariffs on soybeans, pork and beef, along with fruits and vegetables and dairy and fish products. just about everything. those levies target some of the most important american exports. so what is the goal and why might president trump be willing to watch the stock market shiver? putting it mildly in order to get this done. joining us now, nbc news white house correspondent vaughn hillyard, new york times chief white house correspondent and msnbc political analyst peter baker, and national affairs correspondent at the nation, john nichols. vaughn, have you

heard anything from the white house about what we're witnessing right now? >> no. and we hope to hear from the president of the united states sometime here this afternoon, because the clip you played from air force one yesterday when he was returning from palm beach, florida, his mar-a-lago estate was coming after a week in which the s&p 500 had dropped by three percentage points. that was before today's dramatic drop. and this goes back to what is a very, you could say, incoherent or disjointed message or strategy that has been presented to the american public by the president and this administration, exactly what their tariff policy is, exactly what the direction and the extent to which they are concerned about some of these key economic indicators and what it means to the american consumer, the american individual who is invested in the stock market. i want to let you listen to howard lutnick, the commerce secretary in the trump administration, on meet the press with our friend kristen welker yesterday, in

which he was asked very explicitly whether a recession was on the way. he had a different answer than that of the president. take a listen. >> should americans brace for a recession? >> absolutely not. there's going to be no recession in america. i would never bet on recession. no chance. >> of course, this week steel and aluminum tariffs are being implemented. and then on april 2nd, there are going to be reciprocal tariffs being placed on a great many other countries around the world that kevin hassett, who is his chief economic adviser, just yesterday as well, he made the case that that amounted to a trade war. those reciprocal tariffs. but then when asked about mexico and canada, said the tariffs placed on those two top trading partners were not a trade war, but instead an immigration war and borders war. and this is where a lot of these questions coming out of this weekend ultimately have led us to a day in which we have seen the stock market here drop in this quite

dramatic fashion. >> weigh in on this peter baker weigh on, weigh in on this, please. >> absolutely. got it. all right. >> of course. >> what is striking. >> is not. >> only the incoherence of the messaging. on the one hand, the president says we might have a recession. on the other hand, as commerce secretary says, no chance one of them is going to be wrong. you have this sort of disjointed policy where trading partners and businesses don't know which way is up and which way is down. we have the tariffs on one day we take them off, the next day we put them on this product, but not on that product. we're going to make an exemption of a one month pause. very hard for businesses to do business to make plans. that's what business likes. it likes predictability. and for trump, who made the stock market a major metric of his success as he saw it in his first term, this is a remarkable turnaround. in fact, if you invested money on the day he was inaugurated, you invested, let's say, $100 in the nasdaq or in the stocks that make up the nasdaq across the board. on his inauguration day, you've already lost 12% of your

money in the seven weeks since then. and that's just not what trump promised. trump promised a strong economy. he promised the greatest economy ever. and it's not clear that this transition is to something better, necessarily, because, as vaughn said, it's not clear that the tariffs on our biggest trading partners of canada and mexico are really about economics at all. it's about fentanyl. it's about border crossings. so he's using them as a as a weapon in all sorts of different policy disputes. but the economy right now is on the edge as a result. >> yeah. >> i think that's kind of the wrinkle here, because if he was just saying, john, that this is something that needs to happen in order to rebalance the american economy to fight back for the american worker to bring manufacturing home, he said these things, but he's mixing it up with with fentanyl and other stuff. if you just focused on this message and told the american public it's going to look ugly for a little while, you know, very rich corporations might might be, you know, unhappy about this, but i'm going to make it better for american businesses. i'm going to make it better for american

manufacturers. i mean, there are there are american manufacturers who are cheering this. we saw the new york times did a great piece today on steel and aluminum owners saying, this is a good thing. they need to rebalance trade because right now what they are seeing is that no matter how low they get, the price for their steel products, canadian steel is going to undercut them. it will always be less. they can't lower the price enough. so why not just focus the message there? >> why not? >> that's a very good question. >> and look, the bottom line is. >> this we. >> have. >> had more. >> than. >> 30 years. >> of trade. policies that have been. >> in many. >> cases, very damaging to historic. >> u.s. industries. >> and. >> particularly to some. >> of. >> those heavy. >> industries that do deal. >> in aluminum. >> and steel. >> and so there's a. >> real. >> constituency for focusing in on those issues. you'll hear it from. >> the unions, unquestionably. >> but this. >> is not a coherent effort, at least at this. >> point, to. >> renew american manufacturing.

>> what you're. >> really seeing here is. >> a kind of an. >> across the board. >> parent love of tariffs by donald. >> trump. >> who is constantly. >> talking about how they can. >> achieve all. >> sorts of. >> policy ends. >> that are. >> often unrelated to the economy. and i'll just. mention that we're talking about industry here. we're talking about manufacturing. >> but boy. >> if. >> you look. >> at those chinese. tariffs that were just. >> listed on the screen, those. >> are focused on farm products. and we are right at the point in the year where farmers are preparing to go into the field in a lot of states that voted for donald trump, and they don't know what to what to plant or how to approach things because of the wild instability of what's going on, and because of the fact that products that they have traditionally relied on corn. >> soybeans. >> etc, are now being targeted for these tariffs. it is a very, very unstable moment. and yes, you're seeing that reflected in

the stock market. but boy, if you go and look at, you know, just people's faces. i was in rural iowa, iowa county, lafayette county, grant county. wisconsin over the weekend talking to farmers. and they are scared. they they are looking at a situation that doesn't make sense to them. and remember, a working farmer is putting their livelihood in the ground. every every spring we are at the edge of spring, and they're getting all sorts of mixed signals from washington. >> yeah, i wonder if there was a way to do this and to and to benefit politically from it. i mean, donald trump ran to the white house or got reelected to the white house on the backs of a lot of angry american workers, blue collar workers, industry workers who said that they felt left behind, as you mentioned a moment ago, by 30 years of global trade policies, manufacturing left their towns, their towns got decimated, and they felt like they weren't

being heard any longer. they felt the democratic party, for instance, wasn't hearing them. you can quibble with whether that's true, but that's what they felt and that's how they voted. so if donald trump and his and his advisers really wanted to go after this, is there a way to do it without a shock to the stock market that we're seeing right now? john, can you can you levy these tariffs on china without china coming back and putting a 25% tariff on everything that we need to export? >> look, here's the bottom line. tariffs can be done surgically. i'm not in the camp of people that tells you that every tariff is bad. and i'm uncomfortable with much of the current debate because it seems to be lining up tariffs bad. you know, something else good. the reality is that tariffs can be useful. but this is a very delicate art form. and the way to do it is to target those areas where you really do need to make an impact to try and help. u.s. industry, while always being in negotiation with other countries, always being in communication. that's not what's

happening here. if you had skilled figures who are up there on a regular basis talking about what was being done and why it was being done, and frankly, negotiating not just on tariffs, but on redoing bad trade deals, i think you could yield some political gain here. i think also, the bottom line is this you need to give people time. what we've seen in recent weeks is implement a tariff, pull it back, implement pull back. and it isn't yielding political benefits, obviously, because people aren't even getting a clear picture of what's going on. it's too broad, it's too incoherent, it's too unfocused. and in contrast, i'll just give you the example that if you look at at canada and mexico. canada just brought in a new prime minister over the weekend, mexico, under the leadership of claudia sheinbaum. they have been very, very clear in how

they're going to respond. they're actually polling is right. rallying their people in this circumstance because they feel wronged. i don't see the same thing happening in the united states. >> all right. so we've just been able to grab nbc news business and data correspondent brian chung, literally off the newsroom floor to come in and talk to us about this. a couple hours ago, you and i were talking, the dow was down 500 points about a percentage point down. we're now approaching now negative. >> yeah, it's gotten a lot. >> it's gotten a lot worse. what do you attribute this to? >> well, i think it is kind of these concerns about the tariffs i it's weird because there haven't been any new headlines really about tariff policy in just the last few hours. but when it comes to wall street, sometimes jitters can be a little bit delayed. and i think that even though we saw a string of pretty bad days last week, and in fact, i should remind everyone that the dow's action today has taken us into negative territory year to date. so we were up something like 5% on the dow just a few weeks ago. we are

now erased all of those gains that people may have been excited about to start off 2025. there's obviously the tariff story, but i do think that some investors will also tell you that maybe this is just an excuse to sell for people that thought the stock market was overvalued going into this year. there was a massive stock market rally after the election. i think there was some anticipation that, you know, trump would be good for the stock market because of a deregulatory agenda wanting to slash tax rates. i think what we've seen as of the last few weeks is kind of a recalibration to whether or not this tariff policy vis a vis is going to be good for the economy in the absence of other deregulatory or tax cut policies, as being telegraphed by the white house. again, why today? that's very much an open question. >> peter, quick question to you on something that john was saying a moment ago that that this knee jerk tariff is bad, no matter what consensus that seems to be forming out there, at least among some groups, is not necessarily the right way to look at this. i wonder from your reporting in this white house, is there somebody within donald trump's sphere of influence that

is telling him this and advising him to be more surgical and just not getting anywhere with him? what is the dynamic? >> yeah, that's a good question. i don't know the answer to it, but you see a different crew of people this time around than last time around. last time around you had people like gary cohn in there and so forth who were cautioning against radical shifts in policy like this that seem less than strategic and less than thoughtful. now you've got howard lutnick in there cheerleading this, and it's not clear whether there's some other economic advisors saying, wait a second, let's think this through a little bit. let's have a plan. because you're right. it's not necessarily that tariffs are bad and know themselves. part of it is just the sense of uncertainty about what's happening and when it might happen, where it might happen, and why it's happening. right. is this about fentanyl? is it about economic dislocation? is it about reordering our trade agreements? remember the trade agreement under which we are currently operating with canada and mexico was actually negotiated by president trump? that's the one that currently governs our trade

between these two neighbors of ours. so if he hadn't liked that deal, then, you know, he had something to do with it and could tell us what went wrong and why it needs to be fixed. >> yeah, he did the usmca. yeah. okay. gentlemen, thank you very much for starting us off on peter and john. thank you. brian, you're going to stick close because we're going to get an update from you when the markets close in just about 30 minutes, a little bit less than that. canada's new prime minister will be mark carney, a former central banker who's expected to be sworn in later this week. carney swept the liberal party's leadership election, winning nearly 86% of the vote. in his victory speech, he promised to stand up to president trump. >> the canadian government. >> has rightly. >> retaliated and is rightly retaliating with our own. >> tariffs that will have. >> maximum impact in the united states and minimum. >> impact. >> here in canada. and my government will keep our tariffs on until the americans show us respect.

>> we didn't ask. >> for this fight, but. canadians are always ready when someone else drops the gloves. >> so the americans. >> they should make no mistake. >> in trade, as. >> in hockey canada. >> will win. >> joining us now from ottawa, canada, nbc news correspondent jay gray. i should mention i read the clock wrong. markets closing 45 minutes. all right. so jay give us the view from within canada about what is happening the escalating trade war and whether canadians are feeling what americans are feeling. >> well, i think canadians are feeling like they're being bullied, that they're being abused. the sense of nationalism here is really growing. you know, we've seen a boycott of american goods. we've seen protests at the us embassy. we've seen them pull all the wine and liquor from america off the shelves of government run liquor stores. we know that new

tariffs have been enacted, as well as as late as today. from the energy that's being used are being sent across the border. we know that doug ford, the premier in ontario, has put a tariff on that 1.5 million americans who use that energy in new york, michigan and minnesota now will be paying about $100 more a month. and he went on to say that if this continues, that there will be the opportunity to turn the energy completely off to stop sending it across the border. and so that gives you a taste of how things are. and, you know, katie, the canadians are internationally known and have earned the reputation of being kind of being generous, of being reserved at times. i think we're also quickly learning now. they, when they feel bullied or pushed around, are quick to step up and push back. and that's

what they say they're doing right now. >> all right. jay gray, thank you very much. and still ahead with the department of homeland security is doing to its employees in a in an in an attempt to root out leakers and what president volodymyr zelensky and secretary of state marco rubio are doing in saudi arabia today. plus, what round two of a cease fire deal looks like as u.s. officials head to doha for talks with israel and hamas. we are back in 90s. >> legal issues. >> and, doug. >> you'll be back. >> emus can't. >> help people customize and. save hundreds on. >> car insurance. >> with liberty mutual. >> you're just a flightless bird. no. >> he's a dreamer, frank. >> and doug. >> well. i'll be. >> that bird really. >> did it. >> only pay for what you need.

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>> dhs secretary kristi noem and border czar tom homan have blamed lower than expected ice arrest numbers on recent leaks about planned operations. now the department has begun. polygraphing. you heard that right. polygraphing employees to root out leakers with the intent of prosecuting them. >> anyone who is leaking information. outside of. >> how. something is. planned for the safety. >> of those law. enforcement officers, needs. >> to be held accountable. >> for that. >> and you're going to continue these. >> polygraphing of employees. >> the authorities that. >> i. >> have under the. >> department of homeland. >> security are broad and extensive. >> and i plan to. >> use every single one of them. joining us now, nbc news senior homeland security correspondent julia ainsley polygraphing. julia. >> yeah. katie. and before we even get to that, i have some more breaking news, which is

that we are now reporting here. we have the february deportation numbers, and they were actually lower in february of 2025, around 11,000 compared to february 2024 under biden, when he deported over 12,000. obviously, that's a pretty small discrepancy. but when you're talking about an administration where trump ran on deporting millions and millions and going after the worst of the worst, this is notable now a big reason for the that they haven't been able to deport as many as they did in the previous administration, fewer people coming across the border. and so when customs and border protection aren't arresting as many, there are fewer to be deported by ice. but that is significant. and it's a big reason going to the polygraphs why we are seeing there being this harsh crackdown at dhs. one of the reasons why kristi noem and border czar tom homan think that they haven't been able to deport as many people is that when they show up for these arrests, a lot of the people who they've shown up to arrest have already gone underground. they've left their homes, they're not able to be found. and they think that's because of media leaks. we should say,

though, katie, that when we do get details of these, these operations that they've been reported across multiple news organizations, we're talking about a city and a week most of the time, we're not talking about addresses, names, the exact time of an operation, but that is enough. nome and homan say, to allow these people to go underground and for them not to be able to arrest and deport as many people as they like. also, of course, they would like more funding. and the polygraphs, katie, are so that they can start to ask their own employees if they are leaking to the media. in fact, secretary nome said they've already identified two dhs employees, and not only will they be fired, they could be potentially prosecuted. katie. >> polygraphs. reliable and are these employees mandated to take them? is there a legal issue that they might be running into on this? >> yeah, they could if it's the only thing that they depend on in order to prove that someone leaked to the media, they are usually in a court of law. they're they're considered as one piece of evidence. but most experts would tell you you should never depend on a polygraph as the only thing to

say whether or not someone is telling the truth or lying. of course, someone could be nervous taking a polygraph, which could make their heart rate rise. >> the other story that's getting a lot of attention today is this pro-palestinian former grad student of columbia who was arrested by ice, is detained, being held right now in louisiana for the campus protests. who is he and what is the government saying about his legal status here? >> yeah, that's right. khalil is a former graduate student at columbia who is believed to have organized a lot of the protest at columbia that were against what was happening from israel. there were pro gaza protests, and he was here on a green card, not a student visa, and he was arrested by ice at direction of the state department and is now being held in louisiana. as you said. i should also point out his eight month pregnant wife was also potentially targeted for arrest, but they did not arrest her. here's what border czar tom homan had to say about

it today. >> absolutely. we can. i mean, did he violate the terms of his visa? did he violate the terms of his residency here? you know, committing crimes, you know, attacking israeli students, any resident alien who commits a crime is eligible for deportation. and that's just one out of many. we're going to send a strong message to anybody here on a foreign visa. >> we knew that this is something that the trump administration wanted to target when they came in, especially when it came to foreign students involved in anti-israel protest. but it's unclear, katie, exactly what crime they're going to pin on him. he should go before an immigration judge on this case, but he was in the country legally. and they had. we have yet to hear of any real violence that was started by this individual. >> yeah, or maybe they're just trying to send a message to others about whether they want to protest. use him as an example, even if they can't actually deport him. julia ainsley, thank you so much. still ahead, u.s. and ukrainian officials returned to the negotiating table today in saudi

arabia. separately, though, what both sides are demanding and what we expect for tomorrow, plus what israel just did in gaza as american officials head to doha for cease fire talks. >> stay with me. here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, stairlift can change the. complete nutrition you need, and the flavor you love. so, here's to now... now available: boost max!

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so is ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky. both of them met separately today with crown prince mohammed bin salman. tomorrow they will meet together to try and hash out a deal. rubio teased earlier that the u.s. may resume aid to ukraine if the talks go well. joining us now from jeddah, saudi arabia, nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons. so i know that it's not likely that we're going to see a lot of the negotiations on camera here, not like the other day in the oval office. but what do we know about what the us is trying to get out of zelensky? >> yeah, there may be plenty of people who say it's a good thing that you're not going to see the negotiations the way you did in the oval office. honestly, where that saudi arabia excels is in being able to have closed door meetings that you never hear about. you never hear about what really happened. now you're right. the two meetings are

separate. so both president zelensky and america's chief diplomat, secretary of state marco rubio, are here in jeddah. you'd think they would see each other. you imagine they will. but that's not what's scheduled. it is separate meetings. and then tomorrow, the meeting is between ukrainian top ukrainian officials and that delegation from the us. now what it is exactly that they are going to be able to figure out what conclusion they're going to be able to reach. well, that's that's the real question here. plainly, the highest priority for the ukrainians is to just get through this, frankly, to demonstrate, as the trump administration has insisted, that they are committed to the idea of a ceasefire and not have the talks break down, because that would mean more pressure for the us. we now it's now clear that the trump administration, the us, is

giving ukraine intelligence, intelligence but only defensive, if you like. not offensive, but certainly they would be. they're really looking for the intelligence to be back and opened up again and to not have restrictions on support aid for ukraine. and all of this is happening. we should just continue to remember before we've really got to the negotiations with the russians. the question with the russians, of course, is exactly what they are expecting to get from this. there's no sign that the russians are in a hurry. no sign the trump administration is in a hurry. in a hurry either. for more conversations. that goes to a high level. maybe even a summit between president trump and president putin. and on the ground, the russians continue to pound ukraine, continue to try to push their forces out of kursk, that part of russia that some of which has been held by the ukrainians. >> keir, can i ask you quickly about what's also happening in

doha in your neck of the woods with the americans and hamas? this is the first time that a that americans have reached out to a group that it's designated a terror organization in very many years. >> it is. it looks like the president's envoy, steve witkoff, is on his way there. a bit confusing because we thought he was going to be here. but all of this is a work in progress. so, you know, you are right. kind of norms are being broken and progress is being made on some files. but at the same time it's hard to keep up sometimes. >> yeah. keir simmons, thank you very much for joining us. and israeli negotiators are headed to qatar today for talks to extend the cease fire and potentially advance the release of more hostages. as we said, over the weekend, hamas leaders met with u.s. hostage negotiator adam boehler. a meeting that broke with decades, decades of u.s. policy against negotiating with terror groups, one senior

hamas official told reuters. discussions focused on the last living hostage with american citizenship. 21 year old new jersey native edan alexander, who holds dual citizenship and was serving in the idf. joining us now senior fellow for middle east and african studies at the council on foreign relations, stephen cook. so give us a little bit more about what i was just asking here. why would the u.s. break with decades of precedent and reach out to hamas? >> well, that's precisely what. president trump has promised. >> to do. >> which is. >> essentially break the mold. on the indirect. >> negotiations were not producing results. >> president trump would. >> like to. >> get the americans back. >> he's also. >> stated. >> he'd like to get all the israelis back. >> and this was. >> an effort to sort of break. through the gordian. >> knot here, though, despite. >> the. >> kind of optimism. >> that came out of the. >> meeting. >> there really wasn't a. >> tremendous amount. >> of progress.

>> the hamas. >> has offered. >> something that has. >> offered over. >> and over again for. >> many years, which. is a 5 to 10. >> year cease. >> fire between israel and hamas. that's a nonstarter for the israelis, who are not looking for deals but are looking to get. >> their. >> people back and then ultimately to change the security environment for them. and that means continuing to pound away at hamas. >> how much is israel a part of these negotiations any longer, or is donald trump just trying to do what he's doing with ukraine, which is get involved and be the one to broker the peace? i mean, we talk about this. it has become something of a given. now that he has his eyes on a nobel prize. >> yeah. i think if i was an israeli. >> official, i'd. be very, very concerned that i was getting cut out of these negotiations. which is why, despite. the israelis very, very much unhappy about the fact that butler had these direct talks with hamas, israelis are going to doha and will be there when steve witkoff, who is the primary

middle east negotiator for the trump administration, will be there. and it perhaps in an effort to protect their equities, certainly is the case that president trump has is less concerned about israeli sensitivities, about talking to hamas than getting some sort of deal. this is something that was likely to happen anyway. i think that people who in israel and israel's supporters around the world who thought that president trump was going to support the israelis to the hilt, misread what the situation really is. and that is, as i said, president trump is mostly interested in a deal and doesn't necessarily share the kind of ideological affinity for israel that his predecessor did. >> you know, if they were listening to you on this program, they would have had some skepticism, as you've been pointing out, this stage two of this cease fire, does it look like we're ever going to get there? >> no, it doesn't look like we're going to get there. and

the israeli negotiators are there in an effort to extend phase one. and that is what the israelis are trying to do, both on the ground in gaza as well as through these negotiations, is to pressure hamas into agreeing to extending phase one. phase two has become a something that prime minister netanyahu can't possibly move into, for fear that members of his government will bolt the government and bringing down and bring down his government. so it's sort of a kabuki dance. it's a question of semantics. they will negotiate further, but they won't call it phase two, and they won't discuss a termination of the war, which are red lines for prime minister netanyahu's coalition partners and, quite frankly, even members of his own party. >> what's going to happen to the hostages? >> that is the ongoing question. and it strikes me that without some sort of significant change, both in the israeli political situation as well as with regard

to hamas, which has also moved the goalposts over many, many months here, those people, those who are alive, will remain in captivity, unfortunately. >> all right. stephen cook, really good to have you. thank you as always. and still ahead, what's happening on wall street as donald trump's trade war deepens? a final look at the markets before they close. reminder 4:00 is the close. plus what rfk junior is now ordering the cdc to reexamine, despite being debunked by dozens of medical studies. i bet you can medical studies. i bet you can guess. upset stomach iberogast indigestion iberogast bloating iberogast thanks to a unique combination of herbs, iberogast helps relieve six digestive symptoms to help you feel better. six digestive symptoms. the power of nature. iberogast. (♪♪) years of hard work.

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1-833-735-4495. >> or visit homeserve. >> com. >> despite being debunked by hundreds of scientific studies, the center for disease control is planning to research potential links between autism and vaccines. the cdc is one of the agencies under the leadership of new hhs secretary robert f kennedy jr. and i'm sure you know his history. joining us now, msnbc medical contributor and former obama white house policy director, doctor kavita patel. is there a generous way to read this, doctor patel. >> no there's not. i mean. >> this is really. >> unearthing something. >> that. >> has been put to rest. >> for not just years. >> decades. >> and ever since. >> we've had. >> to. >> debunk a. >> 1998 study that was false, where. >> the. author falsified. >> data linking vaccines. >> and autism. >> since then, we've had. >> numerous not just the united

states, multiple. >> countries. >> denmark. >> half a. >> million in. >> our country. >> tens of thousands of studies being done on children and. >> adults looking for linkages. none of. >> them. >> have found any zero. >> if because robert f kennedy jr is such a vaccine skeptic and he has so much clout within that community, if this is being done under his watch and it and it, you get the same results as all the other studies have had, is that a potentially positive outcome? will people actually listen if they see this done again under the watch of somebody like him? it could be. >> i hope that's a. >> very hopeful and optimistic viewpoint. >> the part i. >> used to. >> do research on and. >> studies like. >> this. >> not. >> just in autism, but looking for patterns after kind of looking at. >> large databases. and the. >> problem is signal. >> and noise. >> you can see. >> lots of different things that come up. they don't necessarily reflect causation. so we look at statistics and say, just because. >> i found. >> out that. >> everybody eating apples happened to also have a peanut allergy, that doesn't mean that apples cause peanut allergies. it just means that. >> kids who eat peanuts that

have. >> allergies might also be eating apples. so you can see where i'm going. >> so it has the potential to continue. >> and propagate misinformation unless we actually. >> take a. >> very clear, transparent look at what. >> they did. >> and didn't look at. but i would argue we could do that with the very studies that we've been doing over the last several decades. what makes me sad is that you and i, i know families with children with autism very near and dear to my heart. they are crying and. desperate for something that's real. they want something that can. >> take. >> their kids forward. they want something that brings some hope of treatments to their families. this is not doing that. it's just spending money in another area. >> could the money be used toward actual research for a treatment for autism? i mean, is it is it a, you know, a zero sum game? if you're spending money here, you can't spend as much there? >> well. >> under d.o.j. >> it's not just a zero sum game. it seems like it's a negative. >> sum game. >> katie, i would have said under the proper appropriations in the senate, yes, it's theoretically a zero sum game, but now we see that even meaningful. i have a statistic for you. i actually know

personally, the woman that was brought in from like a very prominent academic center to lead some of this autism study at the nih. she was told, because she was a probationary hire, that she's not hired and she's she no longer has a job. so that is just one data point in many examples where we see the real causes, the real drivers of autism that do need to be explored, including better delivery of health care. i don't know a single mom or dad dealing with autism in their family that says, oh, i have all the pediatric specialty services i need. try to do this on your own. it's impossible. katie. i'd rather spend money on that. not just research, but actual access to services. in this case, we don't have either. >> are you confident that when it's done that it will be done properly? is the cdc staffed appropriately to do this study properly? >> well, so yes and no. here's what i do know. they're using the vaccine safety database, which is a database not just of, you know, government institutions. this is a database and a network of providers and health systems, academic centers and others that all share

information, not just about certain vaccines, all vaccines. so i'm very kind of confident in that database. but you're bringing up a good point. if the staff to kind of think about how to analyze that data, if the staff to support the work of the data scientists, if they are undermined and they are being cut, and it's not just the cdc, we have usaid, we have global staff, we have world health organization staff that depend on all of us communicating with each other. we're already seeing parts of that dismantled that gets undermined. then the quality of these data analyzes and these linkages are also undermined. and again, it's money that we shouldn't be spending here, money that would be better spent someplace else. >> doctor kavita patel, thank you very much for joining us and helping us understand the contours of this. appreciate it. and still ahead, what the market is doing before the closing bell, we're going to check back bell, we're going to check back in. don't go anywhere. the average dog only lives to be ten. that's ten birthdays, ten first summer swims, ten annual camping trips.

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market. when you look at the last five day period, the dow jones is down 2.7%. if you zoom out even farther than that to inauguration since jan 20. the dow has been down about 4%. so if you had money invested in the stock market, now is not a good time to look, especially if you have a 401 k. don't look. you're supposed to be holding on to that for the long term anyway. but all these jitters coming as a result of just this uncertainty coming out of dc over the tariff policy, i think the government shutdown, potentially at the end of this week is potentially weighing on this as well. but i think there are a lot of investors that are also just looking at the stock market and saying, you know what, the stock market was already riding really high post election last year. maybe now's the time for me to just take my profits. >> the worries about a recession, because as we were talking a little bit earlier, the indicators are not really there. >> no. i mean, the unemployment rate just came in at 4.1% as of the last reading. that's that's basically about the same as what we saw in the final months of the biden term. but i do want to point out that the worries are out there. consumer confidence readings are at lows that we haven't seen in over a year.

retail sales numbers have not looked that good. there are some predictions of what gdp is going to look like for the first quarter of this year that say, it could be a contraction. some people define a recession as two back to back quarters of negative activity. maybe we're on the path to that, but it really depends on what the tariff policy looks like. but the concern that even exists out there could be a self-fulfilling prophecy as people maybe begin to rein in spending because they're worried about a recession. it could actually make one happen. >> yeah. and donald trump going back and forth on it doesn't really help. >> uncertainty is definitely not good for the market uncertainty. >> brian chung, thank you very much for sticking around for us. we appreciate it again. we're going to watch the markets about six minutes before the markets close. one more thing before we go though. according to the aclu, there have been more than 450 laws focused on lgbtq rights introduced in states across the country in 2025 alone. just this year alone, just the first few months of this year. but not all of those laws trying to curb those rights have been successful. in montana, state representative zoe zephyr successfully urged her colleagues in the state house to reconsider a law banning drag reading events at public

libraries. listen to what she said. >> and in. >> some ways, drag does work to challenge those norms. there were three articles of clothing laws 50 years ago that said, if you. >> wore three. >> articles of clothing that were. >> indicative of. >> the opposite. >> gender. >> that the police could. >> stop you and arrest you. >> it was those. laws that led to the police raiding an lgbtq bar in new york. >> and led to the stonewall riots. >> one of the most important. >> civil rights movement moments in my community's history. >> it's important to. >> note that last session's bill, when it was applied. the first application of this was not on a drag show. it was to prevent a trans woman from giving a history lesson in a library. that's where this came up. that's how this is going to be attempted to be applied. i'm here to stand before the body and say that my life is not a fetish. my existence is not a

fetish. i was proud less than a month ago to have my son up in the gallery here. many of you on the other side met him. when i go to walk him to school. that is not lascivious display. that is not a fetish. that is my family. this is what these bills are trying to come after. >> i urge you to go online to listen to the whole thing. it's really worth a listen. and she was clearly very convincing because she flipped 13 republican lawmakers on that bill, stopped it from being passed. that's going to do it for me today. deadline. white for me today. deadline. white here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need, and the flavor you love. so, here's to now... now available: boost max! the first time you try bounce, it hits you. your laundry feels way fresher, softer.

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