proud partner of the players. just say “the players championship” into your xfinity voice remote. >> hi everyone. >> it's 4:00 in new york. >> we begin with breaking news. >> financial markets. >> today roiled. >> by donald trump.

>> and the chaos. >> he. >> has unleashed. >> on the american economy. >> the dow. >> is down. >> more than 2%. >> around 900 points. >> today after. >> trump, in. >> an. interview on fox. >> news, refused to rule out a recession. watch those comments. >> are you. expecting a. recession this year? >> i hate to predict things like that. there is a period of transition because what we're doing is very big. we're bringing wealth back to america. that's a big thing. and there are always periods of it takes a little time, it takes a little time, but i don't. i think it should be great for us. i mean, i think it should be great. >> should be great. >> markets didn't think so. >> clearly disagreeing with that. >> spooked by what. >> trump called. >> there a quote. >> period of transition. >> all major stock. >> indices are now below the levels they. were when donald trump was inaugurated. that may be one reason why. in that fox

interview, trump. >> said. >> this quote, you. >> can't really. >> watch the stock. >> market, end. >> quote. >> a sudden about. >> face from. >> the kinds of things he said during his first term, when markets were his most favorite metric. today's sell off and investor concerns are focused around one thing that trump's policies, which often come with sudden and surprising. >> reversals. >> is sending the economy into a recession. new york times reports this, quote, president trump inherited an economy that was, by most conventional measures, firing on all cylinders, wages, consumer spending and corporate profits were rising, unemployment was low. the inflation rate, though higher than normal, was falling just weeks into trump's term. the outlook is gloomier. the sudden deterioration in the outlook is striking, especially because it is almost entirely a result of trump's policies and the resulting uncertainty. tariffs and the inevitable retaliation from trading partners will increase prices

and slow down growth. federal jobs cuts will push up unemployment and could lead government employees and contractors to pull back on spending while they wait to learn their fate. deportations could drive up costs for industries. industries like construction and hospitality that depend on immigrant labor. a trump induced selloff in the financial markets amid fears that trump policies will cause a recession, is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends, nbc news white house correspondent vaughn hillyard is here. also joining us, msnbc columnist, author of the newsletter. to the contrary, charlie sykes is here and chief political columnist, host of the impolitic podcast for msnbc. national affairs analyst john heilemann is here. vaughn hillyard, what is he doing? >> i think it's a good question because the strategy is not exactly clear. other than president trump and his cabinet over the weekend suggesting that there are going to be long term gains, of course, what are the

objectives and the gains that they are seeking is difficult to exactly explain to the american public at large. and i think kevin hassett, his chief economic adviser, yesterday was pressed on the reasoning of some specific tariffs. and he equated the reciprocal tariffs that they plan on enacting in the weeks ahead against various countries, including allies, as being part of a trade war. but when asked about the border or about the mexico and canadian tariffs that the administration has implemented, he suggested they were not being implemented because of trade practices, but because of border enforcement. and so that is where you hear howard lutnick, the commerce secretary, just yesterday on meet the press, suggests defiantly that the us was not heading toward a recession. but then hours later, you have president trump aboard air force one not go as far as to be able to guarantee that, suggesting that there could be very well disturbances to the greater economy on the way. and that is

where a great many promises were made by the then candidate, trump, on the campaign trail in 2023 and 2024. and yet, what would the ultimate consequences of it be in 2025, and how would an administration respond to those consequences? that is the question that is before us today. one other note, though, nicole, i think that it is important because we haven't heard from the president today responding to today's dramatic stock market drop off last week, the s&p 500 dropped by 3%. and if you go back in time, you know, in 2019 when he was in office, the stock market fell one particular day and he blamed the russia impeachment hoax on the stock market falling that day. and then a year ago, there was a good day on the stock market. he wasn't in office, but he said it was because americans were expecting him to get back into office. and then you go back to last august. there was that day in which the stock market fell, right after kamala harris had ascended to the top of the ticket, and he and his campaign went out and called it the kamala crash. of course,

that was a one day event, and that was not what would play out in the weeks that followed. but here we are in march of 2025, and we have heard very little from the white house in terms of how or whether they are going to seek to correct course on this, or whether the stock market's reaction to the economic decisions being made by this white house are essentially going to be short term consequences, and they're going to continue to articulate a message that there will be long term gains. >> are steve mnuchin seemed to have a coalition with mr. i think gary cohn was in there as well where they could speak truth to donald trump and stave off cataclysmic days like this. for everyone who watched their retirement savings plunge, for everyone whose livelihoods are tied to america's economy, which is everyone. does this speak to

the weakness of the current economic cabinet members? >> i think howard lutnick is, i think, been the biggest cheerleader donald trump could find during the cabinet meetings. he was the one who heralded the accomplishments and of president trump. and when you look at scott bess and his treasury secretary just on friday when he was asked about on cnbc about the strategy behind the tariffs being implemented and then some tariffs being rescinded, he called it an organic decision making process, effectively acknowledging that it's an hour by hour, day by day decision coming out of the white house. and i think that that is also where i think kevin hassett is such an interesting figure in all of this. he was there during the first trump administration. he was the one who is at the forefront of negotiating nafta 2.0 or the usmca free trade agreement at the direction of then president trump. fast forward six years later, it's trump now president again who is seeking to have kevin hassett, the man who negotiated usmca, go out and explain how the united

states is getting ripped off by mexico and canada under the very trade agreement that he and kevin hassett negotiated six years ago. that is where it's very difficult to try to explain exactly what the goals are and the objectives are because the individuals around him are going out onto tv, yet have struggled in a way that is starkly different than even six, seven years ago during the first trade war. to explain what the priorities and the mission is of the tariffs that they are placing on these american companies from bringing in these imports. >> i guess what i'm trying to understand is, is there anyone in the cabinet who previously or prior to january 20th, advocated any of the policies that are now on tv shows defending? >> i mean, scott bessent, the treasury secretary, said that there would be a much more tactical precision type tariff policy that would be implemented by this white house. and he was somebody that was never a fan of tariffs. yet president trump selected him to be his treasury

secretary. and we have seen everything but a precision tactical approach to tariffs. and we have seen him in response go out and defend the across the board sweeping tariffs that the president has directed him to enact. >> charlie sykes i think what vaughn is saying is no. but we queenie's wreck economies and the weak weenies that make up the economic advisers to donald trump have never on public record, advocated for any of the economic policies that have been ushered in over the last five weeks. your thoughts? >> well. >> this has been donald trump's. >> obsession for. >> decades now, right? using using tariffs to punish our trading partners. >> and. >> he is he's unburdened by advisers who will tell. >> him no. >> and so what you're seeing playing out is the. world going okay. we thought you had some clue of what you're doing. but this is disastrous. and, you know, this goes back to one of donald trump's obsessions back in the 1970s and the 1980s. and in the past, there were people

around him who were able to say, no, don't do this. this is not this, you know, pick a trade war. nobody wins trade wars. but this is trump unshackled, doing exactly what his aide tells him. and i think you're seeing the consequences of it, that that in fact, he is serious. and it is interesting to see how the how how they will respond to the markets, because i think that the markets have been generally supportive of some of the things that he's been talking about, but certainly not this. and now there's this recognition that that he's going to go ahead, despite the economic consequences of imposing these tariffs. >> heilemann, your thoughts today? >> well, first. >> of all, nicole, thank you for starting. >> off. >> by asking, talking about weak weakness. >> something i've been thinking about cabinet, not something. >> i really. >> thought i'd ever have to contemplate. >> i've got so much more where that came from. >> i mean, he's in question.

>> weak weakness. weak economy is weak weakness also wreck nato and aid and aid putin. but. but i don't want to get ahead of myself. >> sure. sure. >> i mean, it actually plays into my favorite thing, which is alliteration. it's the weak weakness. and this is the week. last week was the week that wall street, that wall street woke u. a lot of alliteration from anxious analysts placed in powerful posts. >> here's what i think. >> i think that i think that what charlie said is, i think what charlie said is really important. i think, you know, this is just of a piece with everything else we're seeing. trump is being trump now. and trump, i would actually say, though, i agree with charlie 100%, that this is trump unbound. this is what he wants to do. no one's going to stop him. no one's going to hold him back. the guardrails are gone. he you can't blame scott best. and scott best is a serious person. you know, peter navarro, who's not in the cabinet but is obviously he's not really even an economist, but he's also someone who's been important in trump's thinking about economics. he's been someone who's advocated trade wars in the past and blanket protectionism. but i agree with

you that there's not a long record of people in the economic council, if you want to call it that, of trump, who've advocated blanket across the board on again, off again. we don't know what's going on. tariffs. no one thinks that's a good idea. but here's the reality is that trump has been a mercantilist and a protectionist his entire life. this is he has as a businessman throughout his whole career. this is the stuff he has said. he said it back in the 1980s. he said it in the 1990s. he said it in the 2000. he thinks that that that somehow there is some that going back to an older version of the economy that doesn't exist anymore. he wants to basically roll back globalization and try to turn america into a purely domestic market, where we make stuff for americans. americans consume that stuff, and that is a better version of the economy than the version that where the entire world is knitted into this kind of inextricable web that we're in now, where free trade over time has shown itself to be the best way forward for global prosperity and for american prosperity. trump does not believe that he wants to, as i

said, go back to that other version. and i think it's not just his id, i think that you might call him a pea brain, but that is a thing that he has been mentally committed to for a long time. it's not surprising. and the last thing i'll say about wall street is that wall street is a lagging indicator. what they are, they're not freaking out about. they're freaking out about the tariffs and the inconstancy, and they're freaking out. when trump acknowledges that there's probably a recession coming, what they are freaking out about is the data that shows that we are increasingly headed towards a thing that we have not seen in america since the carter administration. a word charlie will know it really well. von may is a little young for this, but yeah, stagflation. >> stagflation. >> where we have inflation, you have inflation march on the march, and while the economy is shrinking, that is a if you thought inflation was bad for joe biden, stagflation is twice as bad because you're now you're seeing unemployment go up, you're seeing growth slow.

you're seeing the economy contract while prices are rising. that is a political poison. and you have very serious economists from starting with larry summers and all the way on down who are looking up at the horizon right now and saying, it's not guaranteed, we're going to have it. but it's becoming increasingly likely, especially if trump continues down the path that he's continuing with these policies. >> i mean, i'm not going to play it again because i've played it a million times. but trump ran explicitly on juicing the economy on the price of eggs. he called it the grocery, the best jobs, the biggest paychecks, the brightest economic future that the world has ever seen. these weren't messages from when he was claiming he was the actual victor in 2020. these are messages from october of last year. he ran on rapidly deflating inflation, quickly bringing down prices and reigniting explosive economic growth. everything he's done is the opposite of everything he promised, and i know there's some debate on and off television about whether the normal laws of politics apply to him. they may or may not. i

believe they do. they certainly. they sure as hell apply to everyone who's going to stand before voters in the midterms. how are republicans responding to this white house? >> right. i think it was actually in bedminster at his club just a few months before the election. you and i talked as he had a table of grocery items and boxes of cereal and eggs on a table, and he said he was going to bring the prices of all of those goods down. and this was a cornerstone of his economic message, the idea that inflation was at the hands of president biden and that he was going to make the economy stable, which is the key economic indicators would suggest otherwise. but i think even more so, you know, this is a moment here where if you look back at actually, let's go back to the 70s again, if i may, you know, it was the last time. i know all of us here have spent a lot of time on farms, especially in the midwest. and you often hear from farmers tell you the last big crisis that they faced was back in the 70s, the embargo

placed by the carter administration on their products being sold to the soviet union, and the commodities prices tanked. and it it caused a crisis. and now there is concern about as we watch commodity prices of corn and soybeans and other products, from lobsters to cranberries that rely on overseas market, not just china, but the eu, mexico and canada. and if they are unable to sell their goods to those markets that they have, there are ripple effects across these, particularly rural communities. but if you look at other cities with great shares of federal government workers, again, ripple effects when folks are not able to go and buy the same amount of goods or foods or services because of the consequences of this. and largely we have heard a great amount of silence. you know, rand paul actually suggested that he was opposed to some of these wide sweeping tariffs here. but outside of that, you know, there is a jim and jerry, jim and terry johnson, two farmers in iowa who i was talking with last week. they

voted for kamala harris in november, and they said they were frustrated by some of their farming neighbors because they believed that the first administration should have been indicative of what they could expect for the agricultural market here in their second administration, and that necessarily billions of dollars in payouts from president trump wouldn't come a second go around like they did during the first admin. >> that was great reporting. we played some of it. you know what else happens to weak weenies? they get voted out of office in stunning numbers in midterms. i need all of you to stick around when we come back. another crack in the political landscape story to tell you about. they're starting to show in this civil war between elon musk and steve bannon. in this way, as trump and elon musk slash and burn take approach to the federal government take shape, steve bannon is openly publicizing the schism within the maga movement, and the democrats are taking notice whether or not they'll take advantage is the open question. plus, one of the targets for elon musk is an agency millions of americans

depend on. the former head of the social security administration is warning that that system is teetering on near total collapse. martin o'malley will join us later in the hour and later in the broadcast, fighting back against trump's revenge and retribution campaign and its threat to the rule of law. all those stories and more when deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere, kids. >> i'm sure you're. >> wondering why your mother and i asked you here tonight. >> it's because. >> it's a buffet of all you can eat butterfly shrimp and sirloin steak? >> yeah. >> that's. >> that's. >> the reason i don't get tap into etsy for home and style staples to help you set any vibe. from custom lighting under 150 dollars to vintage jackets under 100. for affordable pieces to help you make a fresh start, etsy has it. and some. >> wrong turns.

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and a protein blend to feed muscles up to 7 hours. ♪♪ for more than a decade farxiga has been trusted again and again, and again. [crowd chant] far-xi-ga ask your doctor about farxiga. ♪♪ by jen psaki. each week, she talks to some of the biggest names in democratic politics, with the biggest ideas for how democrats can win again. the blueprint with jen psaki listen now. >> what we do. >> is try to cut. >> right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington. >> that day. >> donald trump's decision to side with elon musk and the new american oligarchs has created one of the biggest political fault lines in our politics right now, one that puts donald trump on the other side of two of the biggest and most animated

grassroots political movements of the last decade, stuff that resonates with a large swath of the american public, including democrats. it also reveals the tensions between what donald trump has promised to do for the millions of people who voted for him, and what he is actually doing with elon musk as his wingman. elon musk and donald trump's decision to slash and burn large chunks of the federal government threatens to completely wreck agencies that serve the needs, financial and otherwise, of millions of trump's own voters, millions of americans who depend on those agencies, everything from the va to social security. and it's all under threat. it's a political threat, though now as well to the maga movement. and at least one maga architect is saying so. steve bannon, new york times reports this quote, i don't want to say it's an anchor or a lodestone, bannon said on friday of musk on his show war room,

which is watched closely by a number of trump allies as well as by the president himself. quote, it's not that yet, but it's trending that that is starting to affect everybody. that is just weeks after steve bannon called elon musk a, quote, truly evil person, end quote, and a, quote, parasitic illegal immigrant, end quote, that description is based on reporting denied by musk that he overstayed his student visa while working on his first company. now, for his part, elon musk called steve bannon a, quote, great talker but not a great doer, accusing him of getting nothing done. brand new reporting from the new york times that the war of words between these two men has not gone unnoticed by donald trump. from that new report, quote, trump has made clear he wants to keep both men and their allies within his movement. in mid-february, the president told mr. bannon that he wanted him to lay off the attacks on musk and for the two men to sit down privately. according to two

people, that meeting has not happened yet, and it is not clear when or if it will. steve bannon is not alone in fearing that trump and musk's pro-american oligarch agenda is alienating wide swaths of voters. new york times reports this the billionaire's signature slash and burn style and showy spending cuts have reverberated far beyond the capital, making even lawmakers from deep red states begin to sweat. that's because elon musk is deeply unpopular. one poll found that 34% of americans approve of elon musk's role in the federal government, and there's little room for that to improve. only 3% of americans say they have not heard of elon musk. it is a golden, nearly unprecedented opportunity for the democratic party. they are eager to find ways to publicly oppose donald trump. senator chris murphy telling the new york times this, quote, it's an easy story. elon musk and the billionaires have taken over the government to steal from the american people,

to enrich themselves. that's the message. it is true. it is persuasive. and if we repeat it over and over again, they won't win. over the weekend, 9000 people came out to see senator bernie sanders speak out against trump and musk in michigan. 4000 came out in kenosha, wisconsin, 2600, in altoona, wisconsin, a town of 10,000 people. these are pictures from what bernie sanders staff calls the stop oligarchy tour. all the stops are in swing house districts held by republicans. here's some of bernie sanders message. >> my friends, we are. >> no longer moving toward oligarchy. we are living. >> in oligarchy. >> and as we assemble here today, we are going to make it very clear that oligarchy. >> is not. >> what this country is about.

>> huge crowds. von, charlie and john are all back. john heilemann, you first. >> well. >> i love i always love when you don't have a question for me to call. it's always just like, go. you know, bernie sanders is, you know, see bernie sanders up there like that with the giant crowd in front of him. not not an unfamiliar sight in our politics over the last ten years. and it's worth thinking about that, about the sanders thing, because back in 2016, 2015, when the rest of what a lot of people thought, hey, hillary clinton and jeb bush are going to be the nominees, and anybody who is spending time, as vaughn did and as charlie knew from when he was from his perch in wisconsin, the country didn't really wasn't really that enthusiastic about dynasties and establishment politics. the populist tide, which has been one of the most pronounced political forces in my political career, reporting was at was was

on the rise and on the right, you had a right wing version of populism that donald trump embodied. you had a left wing version of populism that bernie sanders embodied, and they were the two defining phenomena, and they were the two defining phenomena of that election. and i will say that, you know, they were they were the movement candidates. and it still is the case that that force is huge and influential in american politics. and when donald trump decided to make his bed and decide to jump in bed with with elon musk, he threw a spanner in the works that i think is a fundamentally challenges the nature of his political support. it is. there's no doubt you can say a lot of things about steve bannon. steve bannon is a populist. steve bannon agrees with chris murphy that elon musk doesn't belong in gorky. he doesn't like these these tech bros in there. and trump is trying to do a balancing act between those two guys and what they represent. and i'm not sure it's reconcilable over the long

term. maybe in the short term you can figure out a way to weave between them. but it's very hard to, to, to balance between the two of them over the long term. >> well, i mean, i would go even further to say they are the opposite ends of the magnet. they repel one another. an oligarchy is the opposite of the endgame of populism. and i remember john's reporting and vaughn's and some of my own. i mean, for people that were for bernie, their second choice was trump. in a lot of instances when and i think that what what steve bannon awoke was and this is a longer conversation, but i spend copious hours thinking about it. the republican base was up for the taking because the bush years obviously focused on two wars that grew very unpopular and traditional free trade. those messages and those ideas were never animated or updated in the campaigns of john mccain or mitt romney. and so the republican base was roiling

with discontent and dissatisfaction and disaffection from its leaders. steve bannon is the architect or the organizer of all that discontent with traditional elite republicans. trump sort of was the plug that just plugged into the wall. but the person who sort of pointed to all those voters out there was is bannon. and i'm not trying to aggrandize i find his politics and his associations and his co-mingling with white nationalism and white supremacy odious. but in terms of, of powering the voters that are animated by trump, it has nothing to do with that american oligarchy. nothing. it may be authoritarian curious, but it is still allergic to an oligarchy, which is what trump and musk have ushered in. >> yeah, you know, i didn't have on my bingo card that i had to choose between steve bannon and elon musk today. >> here we are. >> but but but you but you point out but you do point out that

this fundamental tension here that that you know, steve bannon articulated what became the populist appeal of donald trump and frankly, he's speaking out saying, you know, look what what elon musk is doing here. this is not what we were talking about. we were talking about a working class populist revolution. elon musk has many skills, but he is politically tone deaf. and it is going to be very interesting to see how this this plays out, because, you know, donald trump obviously feels very, very beholden right now to elon musk and the resources that he can bring to the administration and maybe to the midterm term elections. but the symbolism could not be worse from the point of, you know, steve bannon's point of view, where he said, look, we're going to be a working class party. we're going to be a populist party. we're going to be against the elites. and here you have elon musk, who has many, many skills. but

political sensitivity is not among them. >> well, and i think it goes even further for the democrats. i think if bannon had prevailed, the maga movement would right now be diversifying along genders, along age, along all ethnic, i mean, and instead it is completely hit a wall where where the maga base is, is having to grapple with the fact that they elected a king whose jester is named elon musk. i have to take a break. i want to bring in vaughn, and i want to bring in vaughn, and i want to show you steve b gotta have a lucky charm when you ride, right? makes me feel safe and protected out there. that's why i never leave home without a photo of the little ones. bracelet from my husband. lucky rabbit's foot. lucky rabbit named sfoot. it's swedish. that's a whole rabbit. named sfoot. well, there's really no need for a lucky charm when you ride. not when america's #1 motorcycle insurer's got your back. we're just going to ignore the fact that carl has a rabbit. named sfoot.

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absorption compared to regular turmeric. qunol the. >> brand i trust. >> firing air traffic. >> controllers. cutting rape crisis centers, attacking social security. elon musk is out of control. and now. >> the power. hungry billionaire is. >> unloading millions to. buy the wisconsin supreme court. he knows maga politician brad schimel is for sale and will abolish the checks and balances that protect us. he thinks he's. >> above the law. >> protect our last line of defense. vote susan crawford for supreme court. >> that was a digital ad from democrats tying elon musk to a conservative candidate in one of the biggest races of the year for the wisconsin supreme court. everyone is back. so vaughn hillyard, it's almost sort of a gallows humor of our time. how politically toxic is elon musk? he's so toxic. we spent the last 11 minutes missing steve bannon.

>> right. and look this was i think that a when you're talking about steve bannon right. for the last decade plus dating back to his early breitbart days, everybody understood what steve bannon was attempting to build and effectively, what led him to the role as the campaign chair for him in 2016 and then inside of the white house, because there is a belief in 2024 here, you know, from steve bannon that 2025 could be a year in which, finally, corporations would have it handed to them and that a president trump would be the one at the forefront and responsible for that, making the case that he learned from 2017 efforts during that first administration when he tapped the likes of gary cohn, who was, by all accounts, a free trade guy, to lead his economic council. and at that time, he went to war within the white house against gary cohn. but then you saw, right, it was in 2017, there were ceos, a great many of them that went to the white house. and they tried to be a part of different

economic and presidential councils. and there was a great many of them that ended up leaving. and one of those individuals who left in june of 2017 was elon musk, who said at the time, quote, and departing presidential councils, climate change is real. leaving paris is not good for america or the world. and so over the course of the last decade, elon musk was not always necessarily the reliable hand. whereas steve bannon, time and again has stood by and defended donald trump and as you were noting there, sought to try to expand the populist message outside of just the working white class america, but also a galvanized a new part of the american electorate that would rally around him in his second presidency. of course, so far, that type of a coalition has not been the one that has been necessarily targeted this first month and a half. >> i mean, i guess to bring it back to what's before democrats right now. and chris murphy seems to understand this intuitively, and bernie sanders is just doing what bernie sanders does. this is his message. these are his people. this is what he's always stood for. but what all voters want,

including the maga voters, is they want order. they want an access to wealth, and they want fairness. and what the trump musk public partizan partnership showcases is the opposite of all that. it's making fools of the voters. it's depriving them of what is rightfully theirs, their social security benefit, their v.a. benefit. after serving this country in a way that most americans do not, and their access to wealth by shutting down the economy and cratering the markets. that doesn't help the maga voter get anywhere. the field is wide open for democrats. do you see anyone other than murphy and bernie sanders stepping into it, or is that enough? >> well, like, you know, we've talked about this now a bunch of times on the show, nicole. it's like, i think it's not i think, you know, the right now, democrats are are are fashioning a message that's, that's generating a kind of grassroots backlash to what trump is doing and what trump and musk are doing. and i think it's too

early in some ways for there to be some singular democratic figure who's going to come out and become the leader of this movement against them. and i think there are these voices who are who are marshaling those people. i just, you know, the other thing just to, to, to expand on your last point a little bit, which is that it's there's another thing that maga voters really have always valued in donald trump, which is which is their perception, their perception. i'm not saying their reality, but the perception of his authenticity. they've thought, you know, from the very beginning the notion that, okay, he's a rich guy, he has a he flies on a private jet, he has a gold plated toilet, you know, he's all this stuff. he's a blue collar billionaire. you've heard that so many times. and one of the things that the elon musk elon musk brings a lot to donald trump. he brings that money, he brings the platform, the control, the platform, which is the major propaganda and disinformation arm of the maga movement now. but what he what he sullies is the notion that trump is on your side, that trump is maybe a billionaire,

but he's on your side. working class, middle class people. it makes trump look like he's on the side of the richest guy on planet earth, and his buddies and his other rich buddies, the globalist oligarchs who they have. no those voters have no attachment to. and they think it begins to plant the seed, at least of undermining part of trump's kind of cult like appeal. i don't think this is going to happen overnight, but i do think it's a dangerous thing for trump to have done to, to, to, to have made to pull the elon musk, who represents so much of what steve bannon has railed against the oligarchs and the and the globalists, to pull that person so close, it makes trump look like a phony. a lot of us already thought he was a phony, but his voters haven't. and i think this is a very vivid reminder or very maybe a moment of the damascus moment for some of these voters. as we get deeper into this, the donald trump has.

>> you glitched out, but we got you. we got you. my thanks to all of you for joining us. no weak weenies here when we come back. elon musk and donald trump's next move could threaten millions and millions of americans, their retirement, and americans, their retirement, and even their security. we'll have (♪♪) you know that thing your family does? (♪♪) yeah, that thing. someone made it a thing— way back in the day. but where did it come from? and how did it get aaaall the way to you? (♪♪) curious? ancestry can help you find out... with detailed dna results, and inspiring family history memberships. what are you waiting for, a sale? well, lucky you. so right when i thought mom'd start takin' it easy with her osteoporosis, boom- we moved to this cool new place in the city! if you have postmenopausal osteoporosis and are at high risk for fracture, evenity® can help you rapidly build new bone in just 12 months.

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70 million americans. washington post reports this about the havoc wreaked by elon musk and his team. quote, they came in aggressively. a former official who witnessed elon musks team take over the social security administration said, demanding access to sensitive taxpayer data and refusing briefings on how the agency ensures the accuracy of its benefit systems. they recklessly expose data in unsecured areas outside social security offices, the official said, potentially disclosing personally identifiable information on almost every american to people not authorized to see it. the information comes from an affidavit by the agency's former acting chief of staff, tiffany flick, as part of a lawsuit filed late friday. flick, who was forced out of her position last month, warns this. in that same affidavit. quote, if social security's long standing information security policies and procedures continue to be ignored by the doj's team. flick

wrote, quote, that could result in benefits not being paid out or delays in payments. the stakes are high. joining our coverage, martin o'malley, the former governor of maryland. he served as the commissioner of the social security administration under president joe biden. governor, thank you for being here. >> glad to. >> help people understand how much we know and how much we don't know about what's going on right now with elon musk's team and social security. >> well. we just. >> learned we just. >> got a pretty. >> credible confirmation of. what has. >> been reported that they're doing up. >> there from tiffany flick. >> she was a career. >> person in social security. >> and she pretty. >> she laid out in that. >> affidavit what they were doing. the other. >> thing that we know. >> is that they are driving. >> people out of employees. >> out of social security. >> as fast as they possibly can.

mass firings of. >> entire, you know, divisions of social security, the. >> entire office. >> of civil rights and equal opportunity, the entire. office of customer service transformation, telling people they're. all being fired for cause. >> get a. >> cardboard box. get out today. no. >> you can't be assigned. >> anyplace else. >> we also know that. >> they're paying people. >> in. >> cash to leave. and we know that people that. >> were retirement. >> eligible, like so many. >> of the. people that keep the it systems. going so that those monthly benefit checks. >> arrive every. >> month, as they have for 90. years without interruption. >> they're being told if they're retirement eligible, like i said. 40% of them are. we will pay you. >> until the end of the year if you. >> get out now. >> no need for knowledge. >> transfer, no. >> need to tell us. what you understand about how the architecture of this place is put together. leave now. i truly believe that they are trying to crater this agency, and that they are driving it to a total system collapse. that is going to happen a lot sooner. >> rather than later.

>> and what actually, let me show you what bernie sanders had to say, issuing some similar warnings about messing with social security. >> you want to hear something that is so horrible, given the fact that we are the richest country on earth, is. >> that 30,000. americans die. >> every year waiting. >> for an. >> understaffed social. security to approve. >> disability benefits today. >> all right. can you imagine somebody old there on disability? >> they can't get. >> the benefits. they died die earlier than they should. if these cuts. go through, the number of people who die will go up very significantly. that is not what this country is about. and we're not going to allow that to happen. >> what does it mean to take a system stretched to the limit, serving some of the most

vulnerable people among us, not just strangers somewhere else, but people in our communities, and try to break it. >> yeah, i, i. >> believe they're trying to break it so that they can then turn the public against it and. >> say, look, it. >> didn't work. >> and then that allows them to then. >> privatize it and. >> liquidate it. there were. >> reports in bloomberg. >> news that in addition. >> to the. >> 20 year old bros from dodge that are up. >> there. >> rummaging through the personal data. >> and messing. >> with the fragile. system that they've sent people. in equity finance. up to social security. in other words, the very sort of people. >> that pick. >> over the wreckage. >> of a company. >> after they drive it into the ground and figure. >> out how they can sell. >> off pieces of it. >> this is not a group of people. >> that want to make social security work better. in fact, by. >> the end of the biden administration. >> we had gotten every service delivery metric moving. >> in a better direction. >> and many. >> times i. >> testified in congress. about

that fact that bernie sanders was sharing at that rally and that more people die waiting for their initial disability determinations than ever before. and why is that? it's because the house republicans were already cutting social security's staffing down to 50 year lows, and that was before the dojo bros even had driver's licenses. and now they want to cut it by another 50%. so this is a group that clearly wants to break social security. and the good news. >> is i was at three different town halls all across florida. over the weekend, and. >> people are. >> waking up to the fact. >> that they are trying. >> to break. >> their social security. my hope is that the people rise. up and force. >> congress to stop. >> them before benefits are interrupted. but that's where we're headed. >> we're headed to benefit interruptions. >> and the other piece, perhaps even more universal, is the access to private data and information. i mean, that's the other part of the affidavit from the slick. just talk about how

much personal, private information the social security administration possesses. >> yeah. well, they they possess every, every earnings that you or i have made since our first summer job that we might have gotten a w-2 for. that's their it's all in that sort of base cobol foundation of the it system that these guys are messing with. but there was another word. >> you didn't. quote it in your quote. >> that you pulled from miss flick's affidavit. she used the term exposing personal data to bad actors, usually a term that we reserve to people like russia or china, or people that want to do our country harm. anybody who has to go through witness protection for their own security has to be issued a new social security number. so i do believe that these folks are privy to a lot of data that

could not only be damaging to us in terms of having our accounts hacked and not protecting it, they're also privy to a lot of data that could be very detrimental to the security of our nation. so we should all be very concerned. they are trying to break this agency in order to turn the public against it, so they can privatize it, liquidate it, and steal at least a portion or all of the 2.7 trillion that's in the trust fund. people need to rise up. >> wow. and to your final point, the power or the threat of all of our data being in the hands of bad actors is clearly acute, folks trying to sound the alarm. governor, thank you for helping us make sense of it. we're really grateful we'll continue to turn to you. thank you. up next for us, donald trump doubling down on a detainment and promising more to come. we'll have that troubling story next. >> i think i changed my mind

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executive orders prohibiting anti-semitism and in coordination with the department of state. after his arrest in his manhattan apartment, he now is being held in an immigration detention center in louisiana. his whereabouts became an open question overnight to his wife, who is an american citizen who is eight months pregnant, according to his lawyer, ice agents claimed to be acting on orders to revoke his student visa when his lawyer informed them that he was a permanent resident with a green card. they said they would revoke that instead, and on cue, secretary of state marco rubio then amended the administration's threat to deport student visa holders who engaged in what the administration calls illegal protests to include green card holders. we'll stay on top of this story. up next, for us, a major escalation today in the fight between donald trump and the law firms he doesn't like. the law firms he doesn't like. the next hour krista, it's time to fess up.. abooooouttttt? you're over 45

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>> developing now. >> anger over president trump's executive. >> order on. travel is heating up in the city of chicago. thanks for joining us. i'm lionel moise. >> i'm erin kennedy, and right now attorneys are getting involved. >> an army of volunteer lawyers. >> gathered to. >> help families of those detained. lawyers in cities near four big airports rushed to federal courts over the weekend, scoring early victories. >> lawyers. so everyone's lifeline in the time of trump. hi again everybody. it's now 5:00 in new york. it was something to hold on to, someone to call for help. in those early days of donald trump's first presidency, a sign that maybe pro-democracy forces really were going to row together against his overreaches, his excesses. when attorneys from law firms, big and small, from all across the country dropped what they wereng to fight the so-called muslim ban from representing innocent people ensnared at airports to

representing that side. in hearings before the united states supreme court, our country's legal community stood together. they took a stand on that issue and many, many, many others. they popped up nearly by the day in the first trump presidency. now, though, trump is trying to avoid that happening at all. when such adherence to the rule of law is needed most. trump's trying to prevent that. the trump administration, through executive orders, is specifically targeting law firms like perkins coie and covington and burling out of revenge, and a profound chilling effect has already taken hold from the wall street journal. quote in private conversations, partners at some of the nation's leading law firms have expressed outrage at the president's actions, but they haven't been willing to do is say so publicly. back channel efforts to persuade major law firms to sign public statements criticizing trump's actions thus

far have foundered, in part because of retaliation fears. that's according to people familiar with the matter. advocacy groups and smaller law firms say it has been more difficult to recruit larger firms to help with cases against donald trump, which now number more than 100. it is a story that's evolving quickly. even late this afternoon, new reporting in the new york times indicates this quote. at least one of the firms targeted by trump, perkins coie, has hired another firm, williams and connolly, among the most skilled and aggressive teams in fighting the federal government to dispute the executive order. quote, there were concerns in the legal community that no firm would step forward to represent perkins coie. but now trump's justice department will be forced to face off against some of the top litigators in the country to defend what legal experts consider one of his most direct attacks on his perceived enemies and the american legal system. that developing story is where we start the hour. some of our favorite reporters and

friends with me at the table, new york times investigative reporter and msnbc national security contributor mike schmidt is here. he's bylined on that times reporting. we read from also joining us, former top official at the department of justice. msnbc legal analyst andrew weissman is here also joining us, voting rights attorney and former perkins coie partner, the founder of the site democracy docket, who looms over all of this reporting, we should say mark elias. mike, take us through what you're reporting. >> well, i mean, for the for the average viewer, you know, these law firm names probably don't mean a lot, but there was a deep concern in the washington legal community that no one was going to step up to actually represent perkins coie, that that the. legal community was going. >> to. >> remain silent. >> in the face. of these executive orders from trump, one that had been targeted at perkins coie on thursday. and a1a couple of days earlier that had been targeted at another firm. but what's. >> happening? and one was mark elias law firm, and one's representing jack smith. right.

that's their. >> one had been tied. to jack smith, but perkins coie had been the sort of the center of attention for republicans because of their work on the 2016 campaign representing hillary clinton, their ties to the dossier and the fact that one of their lawyers had actually gone on trial, on criminal trial in connection with these investigations. but what's happened here is something remarkable. williams and connolly is like the most elite group of litigators in the country. they specialize in this type of thing of fighting the government. they pride themselves on it to almost an obnoxious point. and what's happened here is. >> like what in what fights? >> well, i mean, i would defer to andrew on a better example than what i could come up with. but basically they enjoy suing the government to stop the government from taking specific action on whoever their clients are, and they pride themselves on going to the ends of the

earth to making sure that they can win. and what's happened here is you've gone from a situation in which it looked like perkins coie still faces a potential existential threat, but we're going to be we're going to go it alone and now have the top firm in washington signed on to do that. but not just that doesn't just mean something to the matter at hand. it shows that this firm is willing to step up here where other firms are not willing to do that. there is utter silence from the legal community in washington, but williams and connolly has said, okay, we're going to do this, andrew. it's like, is that fair? that is fair. i just want to make sure people understand. >> like, how important this is, because this. >> can seem. >> like such a like. >> small and in the weeds. >> this is literally the. >> attack on the rule of law. >> you know, we talk about sort of things that sort of.

>> are around the edges and how it's going to undermine the. >> rule. >> of law. >> this is. >> the attack. this is. >> saying we. >> are going to attack. defense counsel that. is part of our legal system. and, you know, who should know this should know that better than anyone, donald trump, he has installed. his criminal defense counsel as the attorney general and the deputy attorney general and the principal deputy attorney general. these are all people who represented him, and he knows better than anyone the importance of defense counsel. but he doesn't operate in the way the three of us would operate to be like, oh, well, that's the principle involved. he's transactional. he's like, well, that all makes sense as long as they're representing me. but as soon as they're representing jack smith or they're representing the dnc, which is the sin of all sins of perkins coie, was that was doing that, then we get to attack them. and so this is why it is so important that the legal community stand up. the one

thing i will say is there's no question that there's fear. and you see that in legal firms, you see that in corporations. and they're all sort of victimized and worried about being victimized. but there are not only law firms that are stepping up, but all of the sort of bar associations have been speaking up because it's a way of sort of attacking this without making any one firm a target of donald trump. >> let me take it. i'm not going to dumb it down for you, mark elias. i'm going to try to broaden it. well, i'll dumb it down a little bit for myself. i mean, it speaks to something that i said in the last block about the economic advisers. when your cabinet is full of weak weenies, no one can tell. you know, those target, those tariffs are going to tank the economy that's happening on the economic side. when your legal staff is full of weak weenies, no one will say, hey, you might someday need a law firm. you better not destroy all of them. donald trump i think there's a there's a parallel happening there in terms of what this tells us about the people around donald trump. one of the people

at the firm that has stepped in to defend your old firm was the former white house counsel under donald trump, representing donald trump during the mueller investigation. so certainly plenty of awareness of how how trump rolls. but but the bigger frame i wanted to ask you to put this in is a former top justice department official described this move of punishing individual law firms because of the kinds of people they either included among their legal sort of royalty and staff, or the kinds of cases they took, was the most oligarchical thing trump has done to date. your thoughts? >> yeah. >> so first of all, you know, just to address the elephant. >> in the room. >> i mean, i was a partner at perkins coie for a long number of years. >> i represented hillary clinton. i was the general counsel in 2016. apparently, donald trump wasn't a. big fan of that. >> i also. >> as a partner at the firm, litigated and beat donald trump in court and his allies after the post-election in 2020 and after the 2020 election more than 60 times. so i understand

what his animus is based on, but it is an attack on the rule of law. and i should say also, i left the firm in 2021. you know, i understand what his animus is based on, but it is an attack on the rule of law. i mean, right now there are only two things that stand between him and being a complete dictator. one is the courts, and the second are the fact that we still will have elections. and if he is able to undo those two things, there won't be anything left. i mean, and so this is an effort to neutralize one of those two things. the courts right now are holding up a number of his executive orders. they are pushing back on a number of the illegal things that we are seeing done to defund the government. and he he wants to send a clear message to all law firms, all big law firms, whether they do work for democrats, don't do work for democrats or involved in politics, not involved in politics, that that he has a long memory. and if you cross him on anything, he will come after you. and that's why he's gone after covington and

burling. it's why he's gone after my old firm. but i think the message though, that i want to deliver everyone is it's okay for people to be afraid. it's okay for big law firms to be afraid. the question is what do they do right? do they then cower in fear in the corner, which is frankly what a lot of big law is doing? or do they stand up proudly, boldly out front, not hiding behind bar associations but themselves and saying, this is not okay and i'm not going to stand for this, and i'm not going to try to blend into the furniture. i'm going to stand out front and say, what you are doing is illegal, is unconstitutional, and is trying to destroy democracy. and so what i'm disappointed at is how few big law firms are doing that, not elite firms. this is where i want to disagree with the wall street journal. there are a lot of elite firms that are doing this. william conley is an elite among the elites, but it's not the biggest law firm in the country. you know, the law firm i started, we're not a big firm, but we are an elite firm. and so we need not just the elite firms to stand forward, but we need the big firms to join us.

>> i mean, to your point, i mean the enemy. so there's also reporting today that kash patel would like to install a bat phone of sorts that goes directly from his office and his car to the white house. donald trump's hands are going to be on the steering wheel of investigations in a way that has never happened in our country's history. i mean, these are the people on kash patel, the guy that wants that direct lines enemies list. bill barr. and i don't know who his lawyers are, but he's on the enemies list of kash patel, john bolton, mark esper, mary mccord. i mean, it's a list that if you take everyone on that list and go look at what law firm represents them, it has to include at least a dozen washington law firms. why don't all those people speak out today, do you think, mark? >> well, look, i mean, i look, i think you should ask mike. i think that that, you know, he's done more reporting than i have. but on my informal conversations i've had over the last weekend, you know, over the last few days, over the weekend, i think a lot of big law firms are trying to reassess whether they will represent those people.

like, i don't think you should assume that the lawyers who have been the lawyers for people on the other side of donald trump are necessarily going to continue in that role. i think there is a lot of genuine fear in the legal community, and that's why i that's why i'm laying down this challenge. like, that's fine, you know, be afraid. but if ultimately you think being a lawyer and the oath you took means, you know, avoiding representing people, being targeted by the powerful and by the federal government, then i just don't understand why you became a lawyer. i don't understand what business you're in or why you do what you do. but but i think that that this is exactly what donald trump is trying to do. look, nicole, i feel like you and i have been having this conversation for weeks or months or longer. i understand that donald trump is going to go after his enemies. i understand i am one of those enemies. i understand that kash patel goes on, you know, would go on steve bannon and they would talk about me and they at one point said i was the enemy of the republican party. like, i get it. the question is, what do we do about that? and what i'm really disappointed in is, is

that, you know, some of these really big law firms could just issue a press release. they don't have to take on cases. they can just issue a press release saying this is wrong and we don't support this. >> andrew, why don't they do that? >> look, i think it is true that they should be doing that. it is true, though, of when the ap was singled out. i mean, this is this is a time honored tactic of singling people out and then hoping that when you send the sort of shot across the bow, the idea is to separate everyone so that people don't stand together. it's why you take away nato. i mean, this you you want that sort of collective force and everyone. i mean, i think it's completely putting your head in the sand to think that it's not going to then come after you. but i think that's a huge amount. is the fear, the concern about money and that the firm will be be hurt in the same way that you see it in the media. you see it in just generally for corporations. so

it's not just lawyers. i will say though, just as a as a lawyer at the table, that there's i couldn't agree more with mark that it needs to be done and there's so much more that could be done. but it has to be said, there's a there are a lot of people that understand that being defense counsel is a noble profession. and the reason williams and connolly of all firms is the one that i would think sort of did this is because they have taken on those difficult things. they have represented people who are unpopular. john adams, our former president, going back to the 18th century, represented british soldiers. that's what we do in this country, because it's part of what it means to have due process. and i think when you have firms like williams and connolly doing that, there are a lot of other people and yes, they should be more vocal, but there are a lot of lawyers doing the right thing. >> trump learns a thing and then does it over and over again. i

mean, i imagine there have to be more executive orders in the works targeting more law firms. he can't be done. >> well, i think that there's a sophistication to his maneuvering in the first few two months here that goes far beyond what we saw in the last term. certainly at this point in his term. but overall, a lot of trump's efforts in the first term were really blunt force. it was him trying to pull the levers of government, being unsure how to do that, and having people like john kelly and don mcgahn get in the way. trumpism was refined in a way that was far different over the past four years when he was out of office, and they have more than a running start. and i had always said before trump came, came back into office that i never had seen him really do a three point turn. these maneuvers against perkins coie. while my guess is, is that a lot of legal experts will say it's

not the hardest case to win because he's really overstating his his powers. and can he really control who goes into a federal courthouse and, and stuff like that? this is severely damaging to perkins. if you are a company that needs representation in washington, why would you go to perkins coie to have them be your lawyer? if there's a question whether they can interact with the government? so even if perkins is able to push back on this executive order, and they're able to get a judge to say yes, you know, you're able to essentially interact with the government, what does that mean to the firm going forward? what does it mean to its ability to bring in other clients and to reassure its existing clients that it will not continue to be an enemy of the state? and in that sense, there is nothing that can undo that. there is nothing that can undo that at all. >> i mean, but mark, it gets to your larger point and i guess, you know, nbc was kicked out of the pentagon space. but courtney

kupets reporting is unflinching and unsparing. and, you know, the ap being singled out has been covered and lifted up by every other press outlet. i mean, to your point about law firms, they will come for i mean, danielle sassoon has to be looking for an attorney because emil bove promised to investigate her in a letter. god knows what he's done that we don't know about. and all the attorneys that quit the department have been told by email in a letter that they're all going to be investigated. so all those lawyers need lawyers. if the intent is to say that a single law firm can't enter a federal building, i mean, isn't a federal courthouse a federal building? it's basically saying you can't can't represent anybody. it seems that either everyone says it's everybody or nobody. and i share your observation that that isn't happening in the legal field or any other. >> yeah. and so, look, i think that that is the great tragedy of this time. and i think for everyone who, you know, we all we all grew up reading the poem

of the, the, the minister in, in germany who talked about when they came for the trade unionists. i wasn't a trade unionist when they came for the jews. i wasn't a jew. we all grew up reading martin luther king, talking about the that the greatest tragedy of that time was not the actions of the bad, but the appalling silence of the good people. and we all, at the time that we read these things said, well, that's not us. we would be different. we would speak out, we would be the ones who would say, i may not be a trade unionist, i may not be a socialist, i may not be a jew, but i'm not going to go along with this. we'd be the ones who would, who would say, when martin luther king was in the birmingham jail, we would not be one of the silent good people. we would be one of the loud people. we all said that. and now here we are. and the question i ask all of my fellow lawyers is, what do you want to be? what do you want to be? do you want to be one of the silent

people who goes about your day filling out a time sheet and representing clients, but fundamentally betraying the rule of law? or do you want to be one of the loud people and run some risk? and it's a risk you're running it. but but the one thing i'd put to andrew, and i don't mean to be too idealistic about this, andrew, but in theory, law is a profession. it's not just about making money, it is about meeting your oath to serve people who need representation. i mean, that is the tradition of a lawyer. it is not to put your business interests above your clients. it is to put your clients above your business interests. and so absolutely, williams and connolly gold star. i'm 1,000% behind them and they are the best of the best. i mean, literally, if you all things set aside, they are the best of the best. so that is great. but andrew, where is the rest of the bar in meeting their minimum ethical obligation? >> look i they're they need to be heard from. there's no question that what you're saying is right, that they need to

speak out. and if they don't speak out, they are basically making it clear that they can all be picked off and that the next they will be the next covington and the next perkins coie. by the way, just one aspect with respect to say it with perkins coie is that the partner there who is singled out by john durham, charged, acquitted. just to be clear that when he was targeted last time, that didn't go anywhere. and so here this is a sort of better way for trump to do that because he doesn't have to face a jury. but i do think a lot of what he is doing with respect to perkins coie is, is clearly going to be challenged and is going to, i think, is going to result in much of this being overturned as we're seeing in the courts. but i agree with mike to the point is still made. and if you don't have people standing up in this field, and i just want to make

sure in every other field. >> well, right. because law firms work with pr firms and pr firms, i mean, it's a trickle down. i want to keep pressing on this story that we've, we've blown open around the culture of fear that is intended. i'm going to ask all of you to stick around. we'll also have much more on what's been described as donald trump's most oligarchical move to date, his campaign of retribution against law firms that he perceives as enemies. also ahead. it used to be a sacred space in all american life and politics. absolute reverence for the men and women who have served our country. our veterans. that has all changed because of donald trump and elon musk, as big, indiscriminate cuts are expected to go into place soon at the department of veterans affairs. we'll get to that later in the hour. deadline. white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. >> my eyes, they're dry, uncomfortable. looking for extra hydration. now there's blink neutral tears. it works differently than drops. blink neutral tears is a once daily

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and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves. sign up for msnbc daily@msnbc.com. >> this is a good one. is everybody listening? deranged jack smith we're going to call it the deranged jack smith signing the weaponization of our system by law firms, even pro bono work they're doing just in order to clog up government, stop government. and nobody knows about it more than me. and hopefully that'll never happen again. excuse me. i've been targeted for four years longer than that. so you don't tell me about targeting? i was the target of corrupt politicians for four years. and then four years after that. so don't talk to me about targeting. >> there's always a confession, andrew, i said everything he says is a projection and a confession. targeting the firm

representing jack smith. talk about who else in washington right now is going to need lawyers to represent them in cases that trump isn't doing very well. trump has a lot of losses in federal court. >> so i am a criminal lawyer at heart. and listening to that clip that you played is, you know, what didn't happen when let's assume everything that donald trump just said is true. that's obviously where it's this is a hypothetical. and he had criminal defense counsel and there wasn't any effort whatsoever to attack those people because that's part of our system. it is the government does not get to do whatever it wants and say, you know what? the other side doesn't get to have counsel. so when the fbi leadership is lopped off and summarily fired, when the department of education is going to be eliminated, when the usaid, all of the funding is cut, you name what you care about. when veterans have

benefits that are cut and lawyers want to go in and say, this is wrong, you cannot have those lawyers be attacked for simply representing them and going to court. and by the way, sometimes they will win, sometimes they may not win, but they're entitled to make good faith arguments, as donald trump knows. so if you're trying to undermine that whole system and not let people bring meritorious and sometimes not meritorious, but good faith claims, what you do is say, you know what? they shouldn't even have counsel, because to have counsel is making them an enemy of the people. that's what's going on, is saying that the rule of law means that we just tell you what happens. you should not be able to get counsel to, to sort of fight for your rights in court. i cannot believe that the american people voted for that. >> what makes it the most oligarchical things he's done? >> well, i guess what it starts to do is that it starts to erode one of the major norms of the

criminal justice system. so in our criminal justice system, you're entitled to the defense counsel that you would like and that that defense counsel within the bounds of ethics and law, can go as far as they can to make the case for you in the adversarial criminal justice system and even in the civil, the civil realm, that is what makes the united states, the united states. it's the reason that companies want to do business here, because they know when they go to court, they're going to get a consistent result that can be trusted and will be treated and enforced fairly. it is it is a tenet of america. it is one of the reasons that america has become the country that it has. when you start to force people to pick and choose who can defend them and put them on the run for their own lawyers, it starts to erode that. because if let's say, let's say andrew got in trouble and donald trump's justice department wanted to go after him, and he went out to hire a

lawyer. and the when he went to the top lawyer who he thought could defend him, the lawyer goes to their firm and they say, well, we really don't want to take this case because we represent, you know, airbus and they're a huge client for us. and if we take on andrew, we could lose airbus because they don't want to be associated with a firm like ours that is adversarial to the administration because airbus or whatever company it is, has other business before the government. so it starts to mess with the criminal justice system in a way that is far different than than anything we've seen before. >> i mean, mark elias, it is it is a chapter in every book about how democracies die. it when we started the autocracy in america, it could happen here series last spring, one of the questions that no one could ever explain to me was why the private sector sat on the sidelines, why they publicly acted totally disinterested on the question of whether or not

we remain a democracy. it seems that that disinterest and that abdication of any role as civic actors is coming due. >> yeah, absolutely. and, you know, i've done i've been doing a lot of reading in the last few weeks and months, you know, who instituted a system of justice like this? the nazis. i mean, hans frank, who was the nazis head lawyer, changed essentially the, the, the german legal code and said that no longer were lawyers to advocate for their clients. they were to advocate for the state and that if they advocated for their clients adverse to the state, they themselves were committing a crime. and that transformed the legal establishment to pave the way years later for what became the holocaust. you know, who else has a legal system like this? russia, right? in russia today, if you are a lawyer and you defend clients that are considered to be enemies of vladimir putin, and you make

arguments that displeases the regime, you yourself face liability. and so, look, the american legal system is far away from nazi germany and is far away from russia's putin, putin's russia. but i do think we need to recognize that an independent judiciary only works with an independent legal system. and when you have lawyers who are intimidated from taking on cases for any reasons, then you start to lose a key component of a of rule of law. and the reason why i have been so hard on the lawyers themselves is because we are only at the beginning of that process. nobody is saying that a lawyer who represents a disfavored party will be thrown in prison. nobody is saying that a lawyer who represents a disfavored party will be exiled from their country. all that will happen to you is that you may get tweeted at. you may get

a social media post. you may get a preposterous executive order from donald trump. and yes, there will be some of your clients who may be unhappy about that, and you may lose some clients. but honestly, how would we have ever gotten through the other trials and travails of this country? how would we have gotten through the 1950s and the 1960s and the civil rights act? if we had lawyers and law firms who were willing to simply sacrifice their oaths of office to provide zealous representation because they didn't think it was popular, because they thought there might be blowback from the people in power. that is what has me so worried. nicole. >> a very wise former general, said to me a couple of weeks ago, learn to enjoy the brawl. so to all those lawyers and all those law firms, i would say a highly regarded, dare i say revered living general says

learn to enjoy the brawl. mike, thank you for the reporting and for being here to talk about it. andrew, thank you for helping to make sense of it. mark elias, thank you for being you always. thank you. when we come back, deep cuts are expected to hit the department of veterans affairs, the government agency that provides critical care and essential services to the men and women who do more than just about anybody else who decide to wear the uniform of our country to defend us and our freedoms. what used to be something all americans and all politicians agreed on doing right by never skimping on our veterans is now on elon musk and donald trump's chopping block. we'll bring you chopping block. we'll bring you that reporting so, what are you thinking? i'm thinking... (speaking to self) about our honeymoon. what about africa? safari? hot air balloon ride? swim with elephants? wait, can we afford a safari? great question. like everything, it takes a little planning. or, put the money towards a down-payment... ...on a ranch ...in montana ...with horses let's take a look at those scenarios. j.p. morgan wealth management has advisors in chase branches and tools, like wealth plan to keep you on track.

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>> firings mean. >> that donald. >> trump, in six weeks has. >> fired more veterans. >> than any president in the history of the united states, and he's not done. we just opened a va clinic, state of the art $350 million facility in the fredericksburg area last friday. >> but sadly. >> the building is nice. >> but they got. >> a. >> skeleton crew because of hiring freezes and firings. >> and the fact that. >> a whole lot of people who might want to work with veterans look. >> at. >> it and say, gosh, i don't think this is a good place to go to work right now. and so if you're going to punish veterans by firing them, and then you're going to punish the va, making it harder for veterans to access services. this is a war on veterans. and they can't claim it's accidental. >> and they keep doing more to prove that that is the case in what used to be sacred space in american politics and life. our

veterans, now seemingly under attack by the trump administration. and your reporting, the new york times writes of staff cuts at the department of veterans affairs, causing chaos at the very agency that helps the men and women who served our country in the military to protect our freedoms. it's an agency that, quote, treats 9.1 million veterans, provides critical medical research and, according to some studies, offers care that is comparable to or better than many private health systems. even project 2025 said the va had transformed into, quote, one of the most respected u.s. agencies. and yet and yet, because it's trump, there have been more than 2000 employees already cut, with tens of thousands more to come. more from that new york times report, quote, the cuts have disrupted studies involving patients awaiting experimental treatments for some facilities to fire support staff, and created uncertainty amid the mass cancellations and partial reinstatement of hundreds of

contracts. james stansel, an army veteran who stocked supplies for emergency and spinal injury care at a va hospital in milwaukee, said he and nearly half of his shift of supply technicians lost their jobs last month. quote. if you double the work, i can guarantee you're going to have wrong things and wrong stuff in the wrong place, he said. joining our coverage is retired u.s. marine corps lieutenant colonel, founder of democratic majority action pack, our friend amy mcgrath and us navy veteran kyle lewis is back with us. kyle is battling stage four cancer, and because of the cuts to federal research funding, he can no longer access his experimental cancer treatment. kyle, we spoke and i think part of me, maybe delusionally hoped and thought that these cuts, that impact and target veterans and veterans health care were like the ebola cuts that even elon musk would realize were bleeping insane. but they are going in the other direction. what is the reaction among veterans?

>> yeah. >> clearly not the case. right. and i was glad to see tim kaine use such strong language. they can't claim trump's administration can't. claim this is accidental. >> i think. >> that was what. >> was. >> you know, some of the language that was used earlier on when there were stories of beds being cut. no, this is the deliberate targeting of targeting of veterans. and not only that, as with anything else, it's the most vulnerable that. suffer first. right? so it's the veterans that need lifesaving care at the va that. >> are losing the. >> ability to get that. they're losing the ability to get rides to their doctor's appointments. they're losing their jobs. you know, they're the sole income earner in the household. it's a deliberate war against veterans right now. there's no other way to say it. >> amy mcgrath, why would someone carry out a war against veterans? >> well, why are they. >> doing this? >> this. you have to understand

that the department. >> of. >> defense right now is led by a guy who led a very small right. >> wing veterans. >> organization that wanted for a long time to privatize the va. and the va is now led by a lot of these assistant and undersecretaries are led by these guys. and so what they want to do, just like social security is gutted, gut it, make it worse, make it worse so that there is an outcry among veterans to then privatize it. i mean, that's what this is all about. and i think it's really important to note that there is not currently an outcry among veterans to change drastically change the va. now, my husband and i both get our health care through the va. and you know what? i think like a lot of veterans, we would say there are some areas of this country where, you know, the va could could do better, but there's a lot of really good health care out there, and there's a lot of great clinics out there. and

again, as was mentioned before, a lot of these workers that work at the va are veterans themselves. so it's a double whammy when you haphazardly are gutting the va right now. >> let me try to put some reporting behind that double whammy point, because it's a good one. this is from that new york times reporting rashi romanoff, the chief executive of the national association of veterans research and education foundation's, estimated that some 200 research staff members involved in 300 or more trials were at risk of being cut off during the first 90 days following the federal hiring freeze that threatens to disrupt trials, providing treatment to some 10,000 veterans if no action is taken, scientists are already considering moving trials to other institutions, which mean veterans are no longer first in line to participate, and could cause millions of dollars in research funds going to waste, she said. this isn't just numbers and cuts to you, kyle.

>> no absolutely not. you know, my brothers. >> and. >> sisters are in the same boat that i'm in, unfortunately. and yet again, this is this the nih funding cuts that we discussed last time were very broadly impacted a number of americans. and incidentally, by the way, more and more of those stories are coming out as well. people that are losing access to clinical trials, just like me there there are posts going viral from several women who were denied the similarly similar drugs to what i was taking just this past week because clinical trial funding was cut. but yeah, in this case, it's deliberately targeting veterans who are suffering from life threatening diseases. i mean, how disgusting does that sound? but but that is exactly what's happening. >> it's insane. and i want to ask both of you what the end game is to make us numb to this, to make us not care. to make us what? i'll give you two minutes to think about it. we'll all be right back. >> there is a. lot going on

tonight. you've been in these rooms. >> how are. >> you digesting it? and how do you. >> think the world is digesting what trump is saying? >> what are people. >> saying to you in new jersey about doge. >> and what. >> they're seeing musk and his team. >> do here? >> what are the. >> global politics. >> for some of these leaders. >> and why. >> do you see them stating the opposite of. >> what the. >> united states. >> united states. >> struggling with the highs and lows of bipolar 1? ask about vraylar. because you are greater than your bipolar 1 and you can help take control of your symptoms, with vraylar. some medicines only treat the lows or highs. vraylar treats depressive, acute manic, and mixed episodes of bipolar 1 in adults. proven full-spectrum relief for all bipolar 1 symptoms. vraylar is not approved for elderly patients with dementia-related psychosis due to increased risk of death or stroke. report changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts to your doctor. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults.

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anti veteran administration. >> ever. >> it shows. >> you that. >> the billionaires are. >> the. >> ones who. >> matter. >> you know. >> and they're going to step. >> on anybody. >> to get. >> them. >> what they want. and so it's unfortunate. >> but. >> a lot. >> of people are going to suffer. >> the men and women of the military are free to support and prefer any politician. they they choose. amy. but my question is about whether or not seeing that donald trump's rhetoric doesn't match donald trump's actions as president this time around. is that seeping in? is that being registered? is that on the minds or on the lips of veterans communities that you're in touch with? >> yes it is. look, the people inside the military can't speak out. and, you know, they're terrified to stand up and among the veteran community. yeah, i mean, it's look, it's already

starting to hurt as you just saw. i think that this, this country has to realize and donald trump has a long history of demeaning veterans. and, you know, we have a promise to our veterans. less than 1% of americans serve in uniform. we put them in harm's way. they wear the uniform. and one of those promises is that when they come home and they serve honorably, they get some modest benefits, like gi bill, maybe a lower home loan. but you know what the biggest one is? health care for life. and that's universal health care through the va system. and that's why these republicans don't like it. but it's going to absolutely hurt veterans in the long run. it's hurting them now. >> kyle, there was some really harrowing reporting during trump's first term from folks who were around donald trump and heard him speak disparagingly, the men and women who served the country but were injured in the line of duty. he didn't want to be seen with them as reporting in the atlantic. donald trump knocked it down, and it was

later corroborated by the most senior military leaders. this feels like that disdain operationalized in policy form. and i wonder your thoughts on how active veterans are likely to be as these policies harm them and their families. >> yeah, no, you are 100% right, nicole. and again, a. >> lot of us are not. >> surprised by this, right? this this guy is the quintessential fortunate son from that great creedence clearwater song. silver spoon in his mouth. he's never had he's never he doesn't respect, you know, even just putting veterans aside for a moment. the man has no. respect for something like grit and hard work that so many of us americans have. selfless sacrifice is. something completely foreign to him. and so these are all things that veterans embody. and so, yeah, he has absolutely no he again, he used the word he sees people that give for something beyond themselves as suckers. the man just has absolutely no honor

whatsoever. i will tell you this though. and it's very early. and yes, there are veterans, including myself, that are hurting, but this is the wrong fight. they picked the wrong fight. they are going to lose this one. i spent last week advocating on the hill. i had great conversations with senator blumenthal. i had the pleasure of speaking with nancy pelosi, american hero, senator tammy duckworth. all of these politicians, notably not a single republican, wanted to meet with this group of veterans, all of whom i have been, you know, i lost access to health care. i was there with a group of veterans who had also recently lost their jobs, many at the va. not a single republican wanted to meet with us, but we are starting to fight back. we have lawmakers on our side. we have americans on our side. we are hearing from local populations. they are disgusted by this as well. this is the wrong fight and they are going to lose. >> well, i welcome all of your fellow travelers around this table. we always want to hear

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