>> i've been around this country and people are off. >> including republicans. >> we've seen. >> that. >> at town hall meetings. >> they like to say. >> it's just a bunch of protesters. and. >> you know, democrats. >> are not right. >> of course it's not. >> it's complete. one of the things we. >> are encouraging people. >> to do is. >> to. >> if the republicans are refusing. >> to. >> hold town. halls in their districts, we're. >> going to help. >> you know, not just. >> the. >> democratic party, but candidates, elected. >> officials and others. >> we're going to make sure. >> that there's. >> a venue. >> for people to be heard in this. >> country right now, because the republicans don't want the voices of americans right now, which are crying out for help, to actually be heard. and that's shameful. that is absolutely shameful. >> so tell us how you really feel, mr. chairman. i like this guy. again, the that episode is available now for msnbc subscribers. that does it for me tonight. the rachel maddow show starts right now. hello, rachel. >> hello, michael. >> a man who knows. >> of what he. >> speaks, the challenges. >> of being a major party national chair.

>> it is never an easy job, but you know what it takes. what's that? >> well. >> a little. you know, you have to have a little swagger. i'm just. >> saying. >> you and i have talked about this before. >> i had a full hair before i began that job. it was. it was dark brown and looking mighty fine on my head. >> honestly. >> i'm 14 and look at me. >> i know it's. >> it's hard work what we do. michael steele, thank you so much, my friend. much appreciated. >> and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. so this. >> was the front page. >> of bloomberg news today. >> banner headline. >> markets rocked by trump show economic fear across wall street. >> right under that. >> next. >> headline, nasdaq. >> 100 sheds $1.1. >> trillion in value. right under that next headline. >> stocks fall most this year. >> with. >> recession warnings. >> blaring right under that. >> next headline. >> tesla tumbles. >> most since 2020.

>> next headline over billionaires at trump's. >> swearing in. >> have since. >> lost $209 billion. >> quote, the start. >> of trump's. >> second term. >> has delivered a. >> stunning reversal. >> for many of the. >> billionaires who were. >> seated behind trump. >> in the capitol rotunda. >> while he was. >> being sworn in. that was the front. >> page of. >> bloomberg news today. a banner. >> headline at. nbc news this. >> afternoon, quote. >> markets suffer. >> brutal sell offs. as recession. >> fears grow. >> this was the banner at usa. >> today. quote stocks plunge amid recession fears. >> here was cnbc. >> dow tumbles nearly 900 points nasdaq suffers. >> worst day since 2022. >> as recession. >> fears erupt. >> tesla tesla. >> shares plunge 15%. >> that's in a day suffering. steepest drop in. >> five years. >> musk says. >> he. >> is running his. >> businesses, quote, with. great difficulty. >> as shares.

>> tank and. and it just keeps going. i mean. you know, how specific. >> do. >> you want to get. >> tariffs are. lose lose. >> for us jobs. >> and industry. >> economist says. >> blackrock executives. >> says trump. deportations will have severe impact. >> on agriculture. >> and construction. >> fintech, meaning financial technology stocks. >> plummet as. >> wall street worries. >> about consumer. >> spending. >> and even this one industry. >> specific, another. >> industry specific one. >> delta airlines slashes. >> earnings outlook, citing weaker. >> u.s. demand. >> why is. >> delta citing weaker u.s. >> demand for air travel? it's because, quote, demand. >> for air. >> travel demand in the. >> domestic market for. >> air travel slumped. in february after. >> after a series of aviation industry. >> accidents. >> winter storms and. >> reduced government travel. >> just on that. >> one piece of it. >> whether or not. >> americans are. >> interested in. >> flying anywhere these days.

after yet. >> another plane crash. >> this weekend. this time in lancaster. >> pennsylvania, the atlantic magazine. >> is now reporting. >> on how things are going at the faa under donald trump and his top campaign donor, elon musk. >> who. >> owns both twitter. and also spacex. the troubled spacex. company with. >> its subsidiary. >> starlink, the satellite internet company. the atlantic reports, quote. >> last week, disruptions. >> occurred at airports from florida to. pennsylvania because of. >> the. >> explosion of the spacex starship on its. >> latest test flight, which rained. >> down debris and snarled air traffic. when these disturbances occur. >> sometimes suddenly it falls. >> to aeronautical. >> information specialists to update charts and maps and flight. procedures that each day guide more than. 45,000 flights and. 2.9 million passengers across america's more than 29,000,000mi!s of airspace. quote, trump's drive to. >> downsize the federal

government. >> as directed by elon musk's doge initiative. >> is drastically reducing the number of aeronautical. >> information specialists and other. >> workers in. >> critical safety roles. >> at the faa. >> interviews and internal faa. records show. >> that as many. >> as 12% of the nation's aeronautical information specialists have. >> now been fired or. >> have exited the agency. 12% of everybody who has that job in america is gone. since trump took over. >> aeronautical information. >> specialists, the. >> people who rewrote planes. >> when bad stuff happens. this, of course, comes after the. >> new. >> york times reported on a confrontation a few days ago at the white. >> house. >> between musk. and the fox business channel host. >> who donald. >> trump saw fit to. install as our nation's transportation secretary. quote, mr. duffy. >> said the young staff.

>> of mr. musk's team was trying to lay. >> off air traffic controllers. quote what. >> am. >> i supposed to do? mr. duffy said. i have multiple plane crashes to deal with now, and your. >> people want me. >> to fire air. >> traffic controllers. and stick a pin. >> in. that for. >> a second. we'll come back to the president's top donors and what he's doing to american air travel in just a moment, and how we ought to be thinking about that, given what's going on in the news right now. but as the markets crash today and as wall street and the business sector and economists broadly start to righteously freak out about what the american people have wrought by reinstalling donald trump in the white house. have a. >> look at. >> this from this weekend. this was another weekend in which we saw people protesting all over the country at elon musk's car company, at tesla dealerships everywhere, protests this weekend at the tesla dealership in pasadena, california, which

is southern california. also, palo alto, up in northern california, in decatur. >> georgia. >> and vancouver, washington in boston at the big tesla dealership there, in chicago, at the tesla dealership on the gold coast. there in manhattan, at the tesla dealership, there was another big protest this weekend at which people did civil disobedience and got arrested. i think this is the second, if not the third, time that people have actually done civil disobedience and had to be dragged out of that tesla showroom in new york city. this is a big weekend of protests. women's day this weekend brought out a lot of anti-trump anti elon musk protesters, plus people standing up for abortion rights and for immigrants rights. we saw big women's marches this weekend in atlanta and in places as far flung as lexington, kentucky and pittsburg, kansas and indianapolis and new. >> york city. >> there was a big march in los angeles. they had a really big women's march. there were protests and big marches in boston and in sacramento and in

portland, oregon, and at the state capitol in saint paul, minnesota. people demonstrated peacefully in cincinnati this weekend targeting vice president jd vance while he was out with his young daughter. his interactions with those protesters apparently made him very, very, very angry. saturday saw a big protest in bethesda, maryland, a defend the nih protest. look at the size of this in bethesda this weekend. lots of people turned out for that. saturday night in washington, dc, there was a nighttime march for drag, where they marched to the kennedy center to protest trump's recent personal takeover of the kennedy center and his executive orders attacking transgender people in every conceivable way. >> saturday in milwaukee. >> wisconsin, there was a daytime protest to defend veterans. a protest in milwaukee against the massive cuts that trump has slated for the va. new york times reporting this

weekend that trump's huge va cuts have already cut off midstream clinical trials for veterans with advanced cancer. these are clinical trials for veterans who effectively don't have any other treatment options left, and they are facing death. and these clinical trials at the va might be their best shot to live, but they are canceled now because of the cuts that trump has already imposed on the va. that is ahead of the 80,000 people he says he's going to fire at the va by june. on saturday in washington, people unfurled this this huge ukraine flag for a don't abandon ukraine protest that was on the ellipse outside the white house. in texas, massachusetts senator elizabeth warren traveled to austin, texas, this weekend. and elizabeth warren rally. look at this. in austin, texas, turned out 3500 people at the state capitol in austin. senator

bernie sanders of vermont continued his project of rallying people all across the country this weekend. he has been specifically focused on house districts. >> that are currently. >> represented by republicans. look at this crowd. kenosha, wisconsin on friday night, 4000 people turned out in kenosha to see bernie sanders the next morning. elsewhere in wisconsin, he was in altoona, in altoona, wisconsin, on saturday morning, more than 2500 people showed up to see bernie sanders. that's about a quarter of the town's entire population. then on sunday, senator sanders went to suburban detroit, michigan, where he spoke to 9000 people. more than 9000 people turned out in michigan to see bernie sanders. town halls with members of congress continue to be packed and also really interesting in washington state this weekend, democratic congresswoman emily randall held a packed town hall in tacoma friday night. she was then slated to hold another one saturday morning in bremerton, washington. but so many people

packed into that one that the venue filled up in minutes. she apparently made the decision on the spot that she would just stay and hold a whole second town hall after the morning one, so that people could get in from the overflow to ask her questions. she just doubled up, and i'll say, i watched a lot of the footage from those town halls, and her constituents were asking her questions, but congresswoman randall's constituents were also there to holler at her to do more. congresswoman randall is one of the democratic members of congress who walked out of president trump's speech to congress last week, and she did get a huge round of applause from her constituents for that. but the tone of that town hall was really anguish from her constituents about what's happening in washington and honestly, demands to her that she do more, more, more, that she somehow find a way to be even more confrontational against trump. again. in texas, congressman joaquin castro held a packed house, had a packed house at his san antonio town

hall. this while local news interviewed some of his constituents who were in tears talking about how concerned and angry they are about what trump is doing to the government. and this is an interesting one. this is a republican in western michigan, republican congressman bill huizenga. i think that's how you say his name. it's. h u z e n g a huizenga. he held a tele town hall this weekend with his constituents. he actually told his constituents on the call that he didn't want to do an in-person town hall because he thought people would be disruptive if he showed up in person. so he just did it by phone. even still, even though it was just on the phone, that still led his to his local abc affiliate in western michigan, michigan getting him on the record and on tape from that tele town hall with this. take a listen to what one person asked. >> and how. >> he in. >> part responded. >> i've got a lot. >> of. >> angst and. >> hopefully the i'm.

>> hoping the. >> congress will. >> stand up. >> and. >> say. >> yes. >> you are allowed to do this, mr. president. >> no, mr. president, this has to go through congress. >> is that something that congress. >> is willing. >> to do? >> i will fully admit. >> i think elon musk has has tweeted first and second some. >> some times. >> and it's been he has plunged ahead without. >> necessarily knowing and understanding what he legally has to do or what he is he is going to be doing. >> republican congressman. bill huizenga from michigan, afraid to meet his constituents in person, but telling them in a telephone town hall, elon musk has tweeted first and thought second. he has plunged ahead without knowing and understanding what he legally has to do or what he is going to be doing. the actions of donald trump and elon musk are indefensible, according to republican members of congress, and they do not want to have to

admit that on camera in front of their constituents, let alone face them eyeball to eyeball. but doing a tele town hall still get you on tape, even when you're just there on the phone. in kansas this weekend, republican congressman ron estes thought that he figured out how to fix this problem. this is fantastic. congressman estes called for a rally. he called for a big pro-trump rally and protest event in his district, and it was to be sponsored by a right wing group called americans for prosperity. so this event, it was saturday in wichita, kansas, again, called by the congressman to telling his constituents to show up to protest for donald trump. and the event was drowned out by a much larger group of anti-trump protesters who showed up to protest against donald trump and also against their congressman, ron estes. if you look at any of the signs, you'll see something everything from protect, die, to

protect women, to help ukraine. it's just a little bit of everything all at once. >> defend democracy. >> organizers use. >> the rally. >> as a lightning rod. >> aiming to express their opposition to state. >> leaders on. >> a variety of topics. >> the day you said. >> you know. >> the firing. >> of so. >> many people. >> for no reason. >> the. >> park rangers. >> arguing that the job cuts by president donald trump and elon musk's department of government. efficiency are only hurting kansans. >> again, that was supposed to be the pro-trump event. dang nabbit. republican congressman ron estes of kansas trying to get people to rally for trump, trying to get some good press for the republicans and trump. but then the number of people who turn out in kansas to protest against him and against trump just totally dwarfs what he was trying to do. let me just show you, like, one more little ten second clip of this. this is the very end of that local news package on k-s-n in kansas. now,

congressman estes, how'd it go trying to get some good press for your pro-trump event that was totally swamped by anti-trump protesters. how did it go? >> we intended to speak to ron estes, but he left the rally before addressing the media present here for you. payton snyder, ksn news three. >> republican congressman ron estes of kansas. step one invite the media. step two forget that your own constituents are horrified at donald trump and looking for any opportunity to protest him. step three leave without talking to the media. very important. hope that they forget that you are the one who invited them to be there. to show off all the trump love in your district. there were also good sized protests today in new york city, after the trump administration sent immigration agents to address a legal permanent resident of the united states, a green card holder who

had also been involved in protests against israel's israel's war in gaza at columbia university. tonight, a federal judge in new york has blocked the trump administration from deporting that young man and forcing him out of the country, despite the fact that he is a legal permanent resident and has a green card. that federal judge has called a hearing on the matter on wednesday, says he wants everybody involved in that case to be there in person for that hearing, and that young man cannot be sent out of the country. in this case, the administration has made clear that's not only something they want to do, it's something they want to do specifically. and only because of this man's political views. there's no criminal allegations against him. there's no, you know, material support of terrorism allegations against him or anything. there's nothing. they just don't like his politics. and they see that as reason to revoke his legal status in this country and try to force him out. secretary of state marco rubio, in addition to defending and advancing that, also joined with elon musk this weekend in a

bizarre attack on our ally poland. i mean, just for context here, many observers believe that after trump gives putin free reign to do what he wants in his war in ukraine, putin will keep going and push into georgia in the south, which he already invaded in 2008, in the southwest. he's already got a big footprint in moldova. he appears to be aggressively meddling in the government and elections of romania already. and of course, due west of ukraine, sharing a long land border with ukraine is our very close ally, poland. this weekend, president trump's top campaign donor, elon musk, tweeted insults at the foreign minister in poland and bragged about how ukraine would collapse without what he called my starlink system, my starlink system. that's his satellite internet terminals that are widely used in ukraine and that poland mostly pays for. secretary of state marco rubio then jumped in on that and

demanded that the polish foreign minister should say thank you to elon musk. you know, and there's a lot to say about this radical 180 degree shift. the united states is currently making switching sides in the world and in the war to join russia and turn against our allies. i mean, poland has just announced that it's now going to require every adult male in the country to undergo military training, and they are going to more than double the size of their army. and that is not because they're trying to make anybody feel impressed about their defense spending. it's because they're expecting to soon be at war with russia, because they're expecting russia to invade them. france has announced that now that the united states no longer appears to be allied with europe, and it has been our nuclear umbrella that has been seen as the primary nuclear defense of europe. president emmanuel macron of france is now saying that since the united states no longer appears to be

allied with europe, it may have to be france that posts its nuclear weapons as protection all over europe. now they're talking about wildly expanding the nuclear deterrent afforded by france. in europe. both poland and germany are also now talking about getting their own nuclear weapons. oh, good. trump has, meanwhile, just cut our support for nuclear nonproliferation detectives all over the globe. these are the people who hunt for, for those who are trying to illicitly acquire nuclear weapons or materials. they work all over the world, including iran. trump has just cut our funding for those activities. wired magazine reports that trump and pete hegseth at the pentagon are about to cut 75% of the defense department programs that aim to stop proliferation of nuclear weapons, as well as chemical and biological weapons. nbc news reports tonight that trump,

additionally is just going to fire 8 to 10% of all the generals and admirals at the senior levels of the united states military, because, sure, why not that one. he's going to put a bow on when he delivers it to red square, i think. right, that one is extra special. but amid amid all the things going on with our flipping sides and us now berating and hurting our previous allies, while we take very, very ambitious steps to destroy not only our alliances, but our own military power, our intelligence relationships, and our own economy, while we're doing that right, gutting the us federal government, hurting the military, hurting our intelligence relationships, ruining our alliances, and trashing the economy while we're busy with all of those things. there's just one other thing that kind of i think brings all sides of the news today together. member at the top. i said stick a pin in that. i mentioned that that there's this

new reporting on the impact of what trump and musk are doing at the faa, federal aviation administration, amid all these plane crashes and the crisis they are causing by firing all the people who keep the planes in the sky. at the atlantic magazine, isaac stanley-becker reports on a spacex employee who has now been installed at the faa. quote, to deploy equipment from starlink across the faa's communication network. starlink, of course, elon musk's satellite internet terminals company. the directive, quote, promises to make the nation's air traffic control system dependent on elon musk, using equipment that experts say has not gone through strict u.s. government security and risk management review. so just put those two things together while we've got this weekend, elon musk threatening our ally poland, which is more

than doubling its army, talking about nuclear weapons and preparing to be invaded by russia, we've got elon musk threatening them, saying, you know, my starlink system, my system is what is determining the course of the war right now. so be quiet, small man. he actually said that. be quiet, small man. it's my technology, my starlink system that is deciding the war. i'm the one. and while we've got musk behaving that way against one of our allies when it comes to starlink, we apparently are simultaneously giving over all us airspace to starlink as well, by letting him take over us air traffic control technology at the faa, installing his own company in place of the companies that have been cleared by the faa to provide that technology. not to put too fine a point on it, but as noted today at the atlantic. quote, starlink presents many risks,

said one expert. quote, part of the risk is that musk could simply choose to switch the devices off. if starlink runs american airspace, because that's what donald trump is letting his top campaign donor do. that gives elon musk the ability to shut down american airspace at will, because after all, starlink is my starlink system, according to him, and he can do with it what he wants. now, donald trump says that's what's going to run air traffic control in the united states. seemed like a good idea. u.s. senator mark kelly is with us tonight. he just got back from todd takes prevagen for his brain tonight. he just got back from ukraine. he joins us here live and this is his story. hi, i'm todd. i'm a veteran of 23 years. i served three overseas tours. i love to give back to the community. i saw a prevagen commercial and i did some research on it.

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year invasion of that country. after he got home, senator kelly posted about his trip on elon musk's social media platform twitter. he said in part, quote, just left ukraine. what i saw proved to me that we can't give up on the ukrainian people. everyone wants this war to end, but any agreement has to protect ukraine's security and can't be a giveaway to putin. putin is a war criminal who targets hospitals routinely. i visited one in kyiv. injured soldiers told me how they wanted to get back to the fight. nurses there shared their stories of the invasion with me. through tears, he said. i met with ukrainian pilots flying challenging combat missions against the russians, who are protected by a considerable electronic warfare and surface to air missile system defense. when trump cut off these ukrainian pilots from u.s. intelligence that they needed to plan their missions, he blinded them to the threat, and he put them and their aircraft at risk. but worse than that, it helps the russians advance further into ukrainian territory to murder more

ukrainians. president trump says the russians are, quote, hitting them hard in a tone of voice that implies approval. it is sickening to see from an american president, quote, hitting them hard means more dead ukrainian kids. senator kelly says, quote, i visited the wall of remembrance to pay tribute to ukraine's dead soldiers. i'm bringing back what i saw and learned from ukrainian leaders, service members and the ukrainian people to show the direct impact our support is having on the ground, he says. the world will become a very cold and lonely place if we continue this ridiculous screw you, go it alone foreign policy. it is dumb and it will not age well. and it puts you and your kids and your grandkids at risk. after senator kelly posted that online, he got a response from president donald trump's top campaign donor, elon musk said in response to the combat, veteran navy commander and u.s. astronaut, quote, you are a traitor. senator kelly then

responded by saying, traitor elon, if you don't understand that defending freedom is a basic tenet of what makes america great and keeps us safe, maybe you should leave it to those of us who do. joining us now is arizona u.s. senator mark kelly. senator, i really appreciate you joining us this evening. i know you've had a lot of travel time recently. >> do you care? left or right here? >> it doesn't. >> matter. >> do i? gotcha. >> it was. >> yeah. i can hear you. >> okay, i can hear. >> can you. >> hear me? go ahead, sir, i can hear you now. >> all right. yes. sorry about that. i thank you for having me on the show. it's. it's a long trip to get there. it's exhausting. it's really important to do it. >> especially now. >> i mean. >> i can't believe. >> what's going on. >> it seems like our country. well, at least the oval office has switched. >> sides in this conflict. >> and to meet with the ukrainian. >> people. >> you. >> showed the two nurses. >> on the. >> screen there. tatiana and

irina were their names. >> and their. >> story is just heartbreaking. >> it is so. >> sad you didn't share the part. >> i think. >> i think. >> it's important. >> to hear what they experienced. they watched children that they knew being raped by russian soldiers in front of their parents. and then those kids. murdered by those russian soldiers in front. >> of. >> their parents. it was heartbreaking. it is horrendous. it will never be forgiven. those soldiers were sent there. by vladimir putin to destroy this country. >> putin is. >> an existential threat to ukraine, to europe, ultimately to us. >> i those. >> women come. >> to work every single day and try to take care of these veterans. >> it was. >> one of the saddest. >> things i've. >> seen since i've been in this job. and just to think right now where we are, they're going into this negotiation in saudi arabia, i hope it goes well. nobody wants this to end as much

as the ukrainian people. but, rachel, this has to. end in a way. >> where ukraine. >> has dignity and has their territory back in a way where they're stronger. and what donald trump. >> has done, i mean, he has. >> really set up these negotiations in. >> a way. >> that not only. make us look. >> weak, but they put ukraine in a. >> really horrible. >> position in terms of these negotiations, such as they are, that are happening in terms of the posture of the u.s. towards this conflict. it appears to me from the outside, just as a citizen looking at this, that nothing has been asked of russia and that on to the contrary, everything that russia might conceivably have asked of the united states, short of u.s. troops bombing ukraine itself, has been offered to, to russia without concession by this president. i don't know why marco rubio personally feels like the right vessel for that, given his previous clear eyed

warnings about and criticism about about vladimir putin. do you feel like there's anything the united states could do if it had its wits about it, to try to change some of the way that trump is interacting already with russia and ukraine in a way to make it more likely that ukraine loses this war. >> well, i. >> can tell you what we. >> shouldn't have done. >> right at. >> the beginning here of this negotiation. donald trump decides. >> to give up ukrainian territory, say that's that's. >> not an option. >> they're not going to get everything back. and to say they'll never be a member of nato, that's not the way you go. into a negotiation. and secretary rubio. >> said something similar here. >> on his way to saudi arabia. you always want to negotiate. from a position of strength. they're not doing that. you're right. they have not asked anything of the russians. and putin is. >> a criminal. >> he respects. >> if anything. >> he. >> respects strength. but keep in mind, rachel, he wants. >> to undermine. >> western civilization. >> he wants to. >> undermine our country, our

democracy. he wants to take back territory. he's he's talked about that. he wants ukraine back. then he's going to go to the baltics. he's going to go to poland. and then. >> we have. >> to come to. >> their defense. what i'm trying. >> to do here. >> is making the american people aware that what this administration is doing right now, they are making serious mistakes. we've got to go into a negotiation strong. donald trump thinks, you know, he looks, you know, strong. >> but he's. >> really being a bully. >> and he's at least for the. >> for the russians. he's making. us look weak. >> senator, i have to ask you, and i apologize in advance for doing this, but i have to ask you if you if you have any response tonight to what the president's top campaign donor, mr. musk, said about you bluntly calling you a traitor in response to you writing about your your trip to ukraine? >> well, rachel. >> when i. >> was 22 years old, before getting sworn into the navy, or as i was getting sworn in to the united states navy, i swore an oath to. >> our. >> constitution to protect and

defend the constitution. i have lived that oath my entire life. i flew in combat in the first gulf war. i served in the united states navy for 25 years. i spent 15 years at nasa, risking my life flying the space shuttle. and the only oath i can think of that maybe elon has sworn is an oath to his own checking account, to his pocketbook. an oath, maybe, to ruining the lives of veterans. i had veterans in my office last week who, after really good performance reports, found out that elon musk fired them for poor performance. he has ruined these people's lives. they were serving our country again in very valuable roles, and they did not deserve to get fired by an email from an unelected billionaire. so i think elon needs to, you know, go back to making rockets. you know that

that's what he should focus on. he shouldn't be focused on this slash and burn of the federal government. and by the way, rachel, he's doing it for one reason. he's doing this. so they create a little space. so the big giant tax cuts that they're going to give for millionaires and billionaires do not look as bad, does not add as much to the debt and deficit. and the way he's going to do it is he's firing people. and then on top of that, he's going to cut health care for kids, kids that a third of kids get their health care, or a third of people that get their health care from medicaid are children. and he's going to cut health care for seniors, all to give this big tax cut. so i would prefer if elon went back to his old job, you know, at spacex and tesla. >> it seems like certainly starlink could or spacex could, could use some executive help at this point. maybe maybe some more time might be available. senator mark kelly, i really appreciate you taking time tonight. thank you for talking

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real value from your life insurance when you need it. with abacus. >> started with an ad in the new york times. it was 1960, march 29th, and the times ran this full page ad soliciting donations for the reverend martin luther king, jr and for college students in the south who had been fighting segregation there. and this fundraising appeal heed their rising voices. it listed a bunch

of ways in which the students in particular, were allegedly being harassed and terrorized in the south. now, there was a city commissioner in montgomery, alabama, whose name was l.b. sullivan. and l.b. sullivan saw that ad and decided he would sue the new york times over that ad, sue them for libel. the ad in the times accused southern officials of violence and intimidation of violating the constitution, and mr. l.b. sullivan said that that meant that the times had defamed him as a southern official because, he said there were there were details in the ad that were exaggerated or incorrect, and he sued the times. this was the headline in the local paper in montgomery state finds formidable legal club to swing it out of state press. and his new book, which is called murder the truth. new york times reporter david enrich describes what happened next. he says, quote, sullivan's lawsuit went

to trial in the montgomery courtroom of judge walter jones, who maintained segregated seating, was a devout promoter of all things confederacy and who believed in what he called the white man's justice. as the sullivan trial was about to get underway, some prospective jurors showed up to court in confederate costumes toting pistols. quote, it took the jurors barely two hours to return a verdict against the new york times. the paper was ordered to pay sullivan a half million dollars. it was the largest libel judgment in the state's history. quote, for racist southerners, this was the equivalent of a green light. the courts could be used to scare the press into silent submission. the new york times, fearing a tidal wave of litigation, banned its reporters from setting foot in alabama, the times says lawyers urged staff not to write articles that detailed the state of alabama's institutionalized racism. that wasn't the end, though. the times eventually got this case with l.b. sullivan taken all the way to the u.s. supreme court.

and in 1964, the supreme court surprised everybody with a landmark unanimous supreme court decision that changed journalism in this country forever. in the simplest terms, the precedent means that there can't be free speech and a free press. if news outlets can be sued into oblivion over mistakes or good faith errors. the court established a new standard a public figure suing a media outlet for libel would have to prove that the outlet knowingly lied or acted with reckless disregard for the truth, david enrich writes in his new book that after the sullivan decision, quote, reporters uncovered wrongdoing in vietnam and the white house and the pentagon. it was not a coincidence that the washington post cracked open watergate in the years after sullivan. if the burden of proof in a defamation case had still rested with the defendant, with the press, and if even honest mistakes had remained punishable under the law, the costs of publishing such a series of investigations

might have been prohibitive. as his presidency circled the drain, richard nixon blamed the sullivan decision and had his administration craft legislation that he hoped would supersede the precedent and put the media back in a pen. richard nixon did not succeed at putting the media back in a pen, but he would not be the last to try. david enrich makes a compelling and alarming case in this very important new book that the legal protections that undergird the free press in this country that make it possible to do adversarial investigative journalism in this country, they're on much shakier, shakier ground than we may realize. donald trump and his allies have made no secret of their desire to criminalize journalism, with constant attacks on the media as the enemy, and an explicit campaign promise from trump that he would somehow, quote, open up america's libel laws. that means something specific. trump's

billionaire supporters have already launched aggressive legal attacks on media outlets that are specifically designed to bankrupt those outlets and shut them down, and they have had some success with that. a once fringe right wing idea that the whole new york times v sullivan precedent could be overturned is now publicly supported by two supreme court justices. the attack on this foundational protection for the free press in this country has been a long time coming from the far right, but it looks like it may finally have arrived. david enrich joins us next. stay with us. >> hourly amazon employees earn. >> hourly amazon employees earn. >> an average of over hey we're going big tonight let's go safety whoa!

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celebration event. get $2,500 total cash allowance on 2025 jeep grand cherokee models. see your local jeep brand dealer today. >> it's from the new book murder the truth by new york times reporter david enrich, which comes out tomorrow. quote, around the time that the first trump administration began reshaping the federal judiciary, a handful of lawyers, judges and politicians embarked on another quest, one that went far beyond the traditional efforts to complain about and sow distrust toward the media. their goal was to eviscerate the longstanding supreme court rulings that shielded journalists, activists and everyday citizens when they wrote or spoke critically about important people and institutions. joining us now is david enrich. he's business investigations editor at the new york times. his new book is called murder the truth, fear, the first amendment and a secret campaign to protect the powerful. it comes out tomorrow. david, i've really been looking forward to talking to you about this. thank you so much for being here. congratulations on

the book. >> thank you. and thank you so much for. >> having me. >> i have to say, i was hoping, as i got toward the end of the book, that you would reveal the big plan to save the first amendment and save the free press. you have documented exhaustively how we got to this point where the legal protections for the press are so, so endangered. do you think that there is a way to save the press and save these protections? >> i mean. >> i think that's. >> going to really depend. >> on how. >> persuasive the. >> media is. >> and advocates for a free press. >> are at pushing. >> back against. >> this concerted right. wing campaign. to delegitimize and weaken the media. >> because for a great many years. >> that campaign has been gaining momentum. >> and. >> gaining force. and i think it is. >> really it's, you know, it's accelerated. with the arrival of trump and his allies. it predated them to a certain extent, certainly predated this current. >> white house. but we're. >> seeing those. efforts very much intensifying just in the past eight weeks alone. and so.

>> i think it's going to. >> take a real concerted. effort by the media to. >> really improve its trustworthiness and be more transparent and accountable, but also. >> really to just. >> gain some support across. >> the political spectrum because the. >> first amendment protects everyone. >> it does not. >> just protect. >> mainstream media or liberal media. >> it protects conservative voices, too. >> and i think that's an argument that needs to be articulated. a lot. more to people in positions of power right now, that when you mess with the first amendment, you're messing with everyone's rights, not just a select few. >> i think that one of the things that you make clear in the book that i felt like was really valuable is the relationship between protections for the press and solid democracy, and having a sense of the, the, the population, knowing what the government is doing, holding the government accountable and making the government do fewer bad things. i mean, that connection that you can't the whole democracy dies in darkness idea as as poorly phrased as that is, is really clear. this institutional protection is part of why we've had the solidity in our democracy that that we have come

to enjoy. i have to wonder if the sort of growing libel industry and defamation industry that you describe is part of why our democracy is weaker. now, if the notches they've already put in their belt against the press and making the public hate and distrust the press, you're i think you're suggesting that the feedback loop is there in terms of whether or not the public is benefiting from what the press does for our democracy? >> yeah. >> i mean, i. think there's no doubt. >> that the public benefits greatly. and. >> look. >> this is a story. >> in the book. >> about trump. >> and his allies, including his allies on. >> the supreme court. >> weaponizing the law to try and silence critics. but it's also a story about how that campaign. >> is already taking. >> place and in many ways, succeeding at. >> a much. >> more kind of. >> granular. >> local level. i mean. i talked to journalists. many of whose stories i tell in the. book all. >> over the country. >> including many local and. >> independent journalists. >> who have been either sued. >> or threatened. >> into submission by. >> local powerful people. >> whether it's a local real estate developer. >> or their mayor. >> or someone like that. and so

we're. >> seeing up. >> and down. >> the food chain, whether it's at. >> an international. >> or national level or at a very kind. >> of community. >> based level. that the tactics of threatening the media. suing the. >> media. >> and trying to weaken. >> the legal. >> protections that prevent these frivolous lawsuits against the media. >> this is. >> part of a big campaign that i think has not really been written about and talked about as much as it needs to be, because it's right there. but people have not connected the dots as much as i think is necessary. and so i'm hoping this book will kind of help shed some light on this and help people understand the legal background and the tactics that are being used. >> yeah, it's a it's a systemic effort. and just as like the power grab in washington is in large part to sort of obviate the power of congress. that's an important thing to understand. but everybody hates congress, and so nobody wants to stick up for them in the same way, the power grab to disempower and take away all protections for the press to operate is a systemic and important thing. but you have to take the side of

the press, which is very unpopular, in order to make the case. you found the right way to do it, and telling the story in terms of how this works as an institution, why we need the press and these protections for the country. david, congratulations on the book again. i really appreciate it. >> thank you so much. >> david ambridge's new book is called murder the truth fear the first amendment and a secret campaign to protect the powerful. it is a really, really, really important contribution that is worth understanding right now. all understanding right now. all right. w for more than a decade farxiga has been trusted again and again, and again. [crowd chant] far-xi-ga ask your doctor about farxiga. ♪♪ comcast business doesn't just power businesses. ask your doctor about farxiga. we help turn them into... ...logistics-mastering... ...supply-chain-transforming... ...seamlessly-restocking... ...frictionless-paying... ...poke-bowl-ordering... ...cyber-securing... ...mobile-access granting...

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