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>> are. >> still in the fact finding phase of this investigation. i often. say that. % >> and quickest. part of the investigation is determining. what happened. the part that takes longer is the how and why. the ntsb prides itself on being the global leader in accident investigations. we are thorough and we are fact based. those facts, the evidence, serve as the foundation. >> for our analysis. >> our probable cause, our findings and our safety recommendations. generally, the preliminary report we're releasing today discusses crew

experience in terms of flight hours, the history of the flights, much of which was released in my last press conference. information on the recorders. we still have a lot of work to do in this area, as the black blackhawk's combined cockpit voice and flight data recorder does not record date information, time information or helicopter position information. and as i mentioned in the last press conference, there is inconsistency in the data which led us to declare the pressure altitude parameter on the blackhawk as invalid. we're now in the process of determining whether that may have affected other helicopter systems that used pressure altitude as a data source, such as the altimeters. the report also contains information on the operators the

aircraft involved. air traffic control. at the time of the crash. helicopter routes. the airport emergency response and recovery operations and the wreckage exams. but what i want to focus on this afternoon is our issuance of a recommendation report that contains two urgent safety recommendations to the federal aviation administration, or faa, concerning the helicopter routes near dca, urgent recommendations require immediate action to prevent similar accidents or incidents. when we issue them. we believe a critical safety issue must be addressed without delay. for this investigation, we're reviewing airport operations and prior incidents, including near

mid-air collision events. information gathered from voluntary safety reporting programs and the faa regarding encounters between helicopters and commercial aircraft near dca show that from 2011 through 2024, a vast majority of reported events occurred on approach to land landing. initial analysis found that at least one traffic alert and collision avoidance system, or tcas resolution advisory, was triggered per month from 2011 through 2024 at dca due to proximity to a helicopter. tcas resolution advisories or raas. unlike traffic advisories or tos, are recommended escape

maneuvers, for example, climb or descend. level off. keep in mind that a to is issued when the intruding aircraft is about 20s from the closest point of approach, or 0.3 nautical miles, whichever occurs first. they are advisory arrays indicate a collision threat and require immediate action. in over half of the encounters we reviewed again from 2011 through 2024, the helicopter may have been above the route altitude restriction. two thirds of the events occurred at night. we then reviewed commercial operations at dca and found that between october 2021 and

december 2024, there were a total of 944,179 commercial operations at dca. these are instrument flight rules, or ifr departures or arrivals. again, that number is 944,179. commercial operations at dca during that time. again october 2021 through december 2024, there were 15,214 occurrences or close proximity events between commercial airplanes and helicopters in which there was a lateral separation. >> okay. we're going to continue to listen in to the ntsb chair, jennifer homendy. but we're hearing some pretty surprising statistics for a lot of people, i think. for example, what we just heard about close proximity events. i want to bring in nbc's

erin mclaughlin and former ntsb investigator jeff guzzetti. erin, big headline here seems to be urgent recommendations. walk us through what we've heard. yeah, well, we were just hearing from. jennifer homendy there. the ntsb chair outlined some rather. >> startling statistics. about potential. >> near mid-air collisions. >> that. >> occurred during the time period october 2021 to. >> december 2020. >> for a during that time period, she said that there were 944,179. commercial operations at dca, and she said that of the of those 944,179 commercial operations, there were 15,000 close proximity. events relating to commercial airliners and helicopters. now we're waiting for the. >> ntsb specific. >> recommendation on that. but

we know that following this crash that took place some 41 days ago, the faa has. suspended helicopter activity around reagan national air. >> most of the helicopter. >> activity around reagan. >> national airport. and we're waiting. >> to. >> see if the ntsb recommends that that suspension becomes permanent. we're also waiting for. >> further recommendations. >> this is the preliminary report that she is now. walking us through, in terms of what they know and what they don't know, what they are still investigating in terms of the cause of the crash. she did touch briefly at the. beginning of the briefing on. >> the altimeter. >> there's still question marks. it appears about the altimeter. altimeter? what? the operators of the black hawk, what the altitude they were flying, if that was, if they. >> knew. >> the altitude in which they were flying or if there was an issue with the altimeter on board the black hawk. that's still subject of the investigation. she offered no further clarification on those

questions. but again, this briefing is still ongoing. chris. >> thank you so much for that. jeff. i did a quick calculation at that number, 15,214 close proximity events over 38 months. that's about 400 a month. as someone who is close to the system, what do you make of that? because as somebody who flies a lot but doesn't know a lot deeply about aviation, that is an astonishing number to me. >> hi, chris. well, it is. >> astonishing. >> but those are the tos, the traffic. >> alerts. >> which i would expect you would have more of those as you're coming into. any airport. it's the it's the ra, the resolution advisories that she spoke of earlier, averaging one resolution advisory per month in the last 15 years. a resolution advisory is not only a traffic alert, it's getting so close that you have to maneuver away from it. she called it. >> a collision threat. >> so that is a genuine threat

of a of a collision. >> obviously. it's a it's a genuine threat averaging once a month, two thirds at night in the last 15 years. that is that is incredible. they have this data now. and i'm sure that's going to fuel their justification for two urgent recommendations that the ntsb is going to make today to the faa. and i would imagine it will be to shut down or do something with the helicopter routes and the airspace in the washington national reagan airport area. >> do you see any other thing to do? >> there could be other things to do. i mean, this is a wide ranging investigation. she the chair homendy talked about the pressure altitude discrepancy in the in the army helicopter, and perhaps that discrepancy exists in many other army helicopters because, again, she talked about how some of these t traffic

alerts that required a base maneuvers occurred with helicopters that were flying above that 200 foot altitude. so maybe it's an instrumentation issue, but i would suspect that these recommendations are going to focus on the airspace in and around the washington area. and then i would expect there will be additional recommendations in general in other areas that could have, if implemented, could prevent this type of accident. >> jeff guzzetti and erin mclaughlin, thank you both. and again, we're going to continue to listen in to this briefing. and as news is made, we will have it for you. but coming up in 90s inside the political implications of the high profile arrest of a palestinian activist and why it's shaping up to be a and why it's shaping up to be a major free speech ♪♪ amazing. jerry, you've got to see this. i've seen it. trust me, after 15 walks, it gets a little old. ugh. stop waiting. start investing. e*trade ® from morgan stanley.

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>> a month. >> call 1-800-355-9395 or visit homeserve. com. >> as the trump administration forges ahead during these critical first 100 days. rachel maddow is on five nights a. >> week more than ever. >> this is not a time to. >> pretend this isn't happening.

>> the rachel maddow show. >> weeknights at 9:00 on msnbc. msnbc premium gives you early access and ad free listening to rachel maddow. chart topping series, msnbc original podcasts, exclusive bonus content, and all of your favorite msnbc shows now ad free. subscribe on apple podcasts. >> let's take a check on markets. they are continuing to be strongly in negative territory. 445 points right now the dow. moments ago, press secretary caroline leavitt at the white house was pressed again about what we're seeing that huge trade off. yesterday continuing today. here's what she said. >> how high is the. >> pain threshold. >> for president trump and. >> for this. >> white. >> house. >> as you watch some of the turbulence. >> in the stock. >> markets as you field concerns. from businesses that. potentially see some of those approval ratings drop in the short term. >> how much is he. >> willing to stomach that? and will he stay committed to his vision for tariffs even as all

of this comes up? >> well, the president has been working hard every single day to alleviate the pain that was inflicted by the previous administration through massive deregulation, through drill, baby drill, as we like to call it, unleashing the might of our energy industry, which we know will ultimately drive down costs for consumers here at home. and again, as i mentioned, the president is intent on signing tax cuts for the american people to put more money back into their pockets, which will ultimately unlock consumer confidence. and again, i'll reiterate the president's words in layman's terms as he does best. the president wants the american people to have so much more money in their pockets, they don't know what to do with it. that's the goal of this administration through tariffs, through tax cuts, through deregulation, and through unleashing the potential of our energy industry. i have two more quick notes before i wrap up. >> i want to bring in vaughn hillyard. vaughn. she didn't really answer the question about sort of what is the pain threshold for a lot of people as

they're looking at their 401 k? if they've been fired by doge, they may have already reached that point. but i wonder what you make of what you heard throughout this press briefing, which has ended now. >> right. i think that this is where the messaging of all of this from the white house is very difficult, because the numbers don't lie at this point. not only is the stock market tumbling over the course of the last two weeks, but also commodity prices, u.s. agricultural products that are domestically produced and reliant on exports to mexico and canada. the prices of those commodities which make the profits for millions of americans who are those producers, but also manufacturers here domestically, are looking at the markets out of concern. and i think that that is where actually, in just a couple of hours from now, president trump is set to meet with the business roundtable, which is one of the most powerful business lobbying groups in the country, if not the most powerful. it's comprised of 200 plus ceos, from apple to jamie dimon to at&t to chevron. this is a moment here

for president trump as he goes into what is going to be a private no press, no cameras allowed, meeting with the ceos here in washington at 5 p.m. at a time in which this group of corporate leaders have been at the forefront of being vocal in their opposition against these sweeping tariffs because of the impact that it has on not only their domestic production, but also the reliance on a great many goods that go into the parts of the actual products that they are behind and in a, in a, in a in a typical group that has been very vocal as being free trade, that is run counter to so often the policies that president trump has sought to advocate on behalf of. and you heard from caroline leavitt here in this briefing saying, the day of america, last globalist policies are over. and in many ways, these top ceos who are watching the stock market fall here are individuals who

have built businesses reliant on not only export markets, but also trading partners that are based overseas in china and indonesia, in mexico and canada, the auto, the manufacturing is just an example. mary barra, the ceo of gm, is one of those ceos who is on the board of the business roundtable, who he will be meeting with in about 2.5 hours. and so this is a very difficult time, not only for the american consumer, but also these corporate leaders, as they are set to meet with president trump, with these numbers that are indicating a downturn in the american economy, but also a messaging out of this cabinet and from the president himself that suggested that he knows all well that there could be disturbances to the economy. and it's not very clear exactly how long they are willing to allow those disturbances to last until they were to reverse their policies that this administration has advocated and implemented. >> so, vaughn, i want you to stand by because we have more breaking news, and it's coming to us via saudi arabia, where we have been talking about the

peace talks that have been ongoing to try to end the war between russia and ukraine. marco rubio, the secretary of state, has just said that ukraine has agreed to an immediate interim 30 day ceasefire. let's play that. >> today we made an offer that the ukrainians have accepted, which is. >> to enter into. >> a cease fire and into immediate negotiations to end this conflict in a way that's enduring and sustainable and accounts for their interests, their security, their ability to prosper as a nation. i want to personally thank we both want to thank the kingdom of saudi arabia's majesty for hosting us, for making this possible. they've been instrumental in this process, and we're very grateful to them for hosting us here today. and, you know, hopefully we'll we'll take this offer now to the russians. and we hope that they'll say yes, that they'll say yes to peace. the ball is now in their court. and but again. >> the timing of this is very important. vaughn, as you know, we've been reporting that this was the last day, ukraine's biggest day of military attacks, 337 drone strikes against moscow and moscow, for its part,

launched a ballistic missile attack. so now it looks like we have a 30 day cease fire. what more can you tell us? of course. assuming assuming russia buys into it. but tell us what more we know, right? >> this is a notable development. there are many parts of an ultimate peace agreement that have yet to be hashed out, and i think that's important. mike waltz and secretary rubio talking about the fact that, for instance, a prisoner exchange that is not been a part of the framework, that is a part of this initial cease fire agreement. obviously, the ceding of land, ukrainian land, but also land in russia that ukraine has taken over these last months, that is still left to be negotiated here. but this is a notable development. number one, after more than a week of military aid from the us being cut off and intelligence aid being cut off and communications being cut off between the white house and ukrainian leaders, you are seeing in saudi arabia, the

secretary of state and the national security adviser sitting down with ukrainian leaders and hashing out a cease fire, a 30 day cease fire agreement. of course, now it is going to be incumbent upon the russians to agree to such a deal. we have heard time and again from russia suggesting that they want peace as well. but what does peace look like in the eyes of the russians is very different than it does in the eyes of the ukrainians here. and we know that steve witkoff, the special envoy from the trump administration, who is at the heart of negotiations between hamas and israel, is going to be on his way to russia. we do not know at this time exactly who he intends to meet with. but of course, coming out of this deal, you could expect him in his desire to meet with vladimir putin, who he met with about two weeks ago for several hours in a one on one meeting. and so for the americans, here they are presenting a cease fire, a deal to bring to the russians. and this actually goes back to a

conversation that i had about two weeks ago with a senior official who was at the forefront of these negotiations between russia and ukraine, telling me that in his mind, he saw a potential peace agreement coming together in 30 to 60 days. and i think that that is where it's notable that they're seeking a 30 day cease fire that would ideally give each of these sides the ability to negotiate an actual peace plan and actual measured deal of what an actual long term agreement would look like, which clearly we are still far a ways away from here, but a cease fire would be notable coming after a series of missile attacks here over the course of the last 72 hours that have particularly targeted ukraine's energy grid system here in the dead of winter. these are notable developments here coming out of saudi arabia. chris. >> without a doubt. vaughn hillyard, thank you. i want to bring in nbc's chief international correspondent, keir simmons, who has been following all of this from saudi

arabia. so it is at least a first step. give us the context and its importance as a first step. >> yeah, i mean, it's this first step. i think it's a work in progress. we're actually here waiting to see whether we get a briefing from the ukrainians. you heard secretary rubio just a little while ago giving his briefing. yeah. look, it is a first step, but it's very tentative. i mean, all the focus now on whether not just on the russians, but whether the trump administration is able to put the kind of pressure on the russians to demand that they sign up to a ceasefire like this. there's not much detail in the statement about what the ceasefire would look like. i mean, if you just look at the words, though, from this joint statement, ukraine expressed readiness and readiness to accept the us proposal to enact an immediate interim 30 day ceasefire. so ukraine is ready. it says it's not happening because they have to go and ask the russians if they're going to accept that. and then, of course, even if you get to the

stage where there is a ceasefire, then who's going to police it? how are they going to judge whether it has been broken? how are they going to deal with accusations on either side that it has been broken and all of the other issues territory, the mineral deal, the question of security guarantees for the ukrainians, none of that has been has been figured out yet. so, yeah, it's a first step. i think that's the right. that's the right word. those are the right words. i focus too, i guess, on on steve witkoff, president trump's envoy heading to moscow, as far as we understand this week to meet with president putin, you assume now that he's going to sit down and say, okay, this is what we have agreed with the ukrainians. what do you say to that, mr. putin? but as we know, he is a wily operator, a former kgb officer with 20 years, as in the leadership of russia. he's he's this isn't his first rodeo. let's describe it that way. >> to say the least. thank you so much. and keir, if you hear

obviously from ukrainian representatives, we'd love to come back to you. but in the meantime, i want to bring in democratic congressman brendan boyle of pennsylvania. again, this breaking news, a congressman that there has been, at least on the ukrainians part, an agreement for a 30 day cease fire. now we see where this goes with the russians. your reaction? and do you trust vladimir putin? if a deal can be made for at least 30 days. >> do i trust. >> the former. >> kgb chief. >> based in east germany. >> when the cold. >> war ended? >> although for vladimir. >> putin, the cold. >> war never ended, and he has worked over the last several decades to attempt to reconstitute the old soviet empire. that's a long way of saying no, i don't trust vladimir putin. dovia i know, i trust, but verify is the old russian maxim that ronald reagan used to quote, and i think is apt here. >> so does this congressman, though, get us anywhere?

>> well, it remains to be seen. let's not forget ukraine was observing a cease fire in 2020 when they saw the bulk of their country invaded by vladimir putin. if the russians stopped fighting tomorrow, there would be no war. if the ukrainians stopped fighting, there will be no ukraine. so it has always been up to vladimir putin and russia to end this war. i'm glad that ukraine will abide by a 30 day cease fire, but frankly, that's not the more difficult party to get to agree to a cease fire. it's the one who launched this war to begin with, russia. >> let me move on, if i can, to what's happening where you are on the hill. we just saw the house passed a procedural vote to advance the continuing resolution to fund the government. hours away now from a vote on that stopgap spending bill in the house, even though republicans hold the majority, and it certainly looks like they're going to have the votes for it. speaker mike johnson has been amping up the messaging

against your party. let me play that. >> here's the. >> bottom line. >> if congressional democrats refuse to support this clean cr cr. >> they will. >> be responsible for every troop who misses a paycheck. >> for every flight. >> delay from reduced. >> staffing at tsa, for every. >> negative consequence. that comes from. >> shutting down the government. >> do you think that messaging is going to work, congressman? >> well, let me correct something. the speaker just said. this is not, i repeat, not a clean continuing resolution. it locks in a $23 billion cut to veterans health care. it locks in the sort of illegal activities that we are seeing right now, carried out by elon musk and his doge crew. that would be locked in if this continuing resolution were to pass and finally snuck in. this bill at the last second is a provision in which congress wouldn't have the ability to overrule any of the destructive

tariffs that donald trump is putting into place right now, and is having such a harmful impact on the stock market and our economy. so it is far from a clean cr. it's a dirty cr, and i will certainly be voting no. >> elon musk, who you just mentioned, says that entitlements like social security and medicare are, quote, the big ones to cut. they're not in this cr, but he's made it clear that he's got a target on them. the white house just clarified those comments last hour. take a listen. >> president trump has been unequivocally clear on this. he is going to protect social security and medicare benefits and medicaid for hard working americans who paid into these entitlement programs and deserve those hard earned benefits. and unfortunately, the mainstream media has taken mr. musk out of context. what he was specifically referring to cutting was the waste and the fraud and abuse that does exist in these programs. >> so i wonder what you make of that. and do you believe that

medicare, medicaid, social security, who for the longest time always has been the holy grail? the untouchables? do you think that there is a threat to them, or is caroline leavitt right. they're just looking for and this has become their phrase, waste, fraud and abuse. >> so elon musk said the quiet part out loud. he said social security is next. i absolutely believe him. and you got there through the white house press secretary's comments, the way they're going to attempt to cover it up, they will say, oh, no, these aren't legitimate cuts. it's just waste, fraud and abuse. it's completely disingenuous. disingenuous and it's dishonest. and you asked about medicaid. let's not forget just about a week and a half ag, right here in the house of representatives, every house republican but one voted for the largest medicaid cuts in american history to the tune of $880 billion worth. so we already know where they stand on

medicaid. they want to decimate it. and i'm not surprised that social security is next. >> congressman brendan boyle on a busy day on the hill. we thank you for taking the time. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you. and coming up, demonstrators are rallying in new york city for a palestinian protester arrested by ice and now in custody, even though he has a green card. inside the political implications of his political implications of his detention. -what've you got there, larry? -time machine. you gonna go back and see how the pyramids were built or something? nope. ellen and i want to go on vacation, so i'm going to go back to last week and buy a winning lottery ticket. -can i come? -only room for one. how am i getting home? sittin' on my lap like last time, ronald. fine, but i'm bringing this. [ whirring ] alright. or...you could try one of these savings options. the right money moves aren't as far-fetched as you think. there it is. see? told you it was going to all work out. thanks, future me. if you have heart failure or chronic kidney disease, farxiga can help you keep living life,

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>> for the brave and. 21. 1 to 1.

>> this is the view in well, it was the view in manhattan's washington square park where outrage is growing. there it is again, over the ice arrest of mahmoud khalil, the permanent u.s. resident with a green card who helped organize protests against the war in gaza while attending columbia university. nbc's emily ikeda is in new york for us, so emily, he has still not been charged with anything. the last i heard, and overnight, a judge actually blocked his deportation. what are you hearing from protesters today? >> hey there. chris. well, you. >> can see some. >> of the anger and. >> outrage that has spilled. >> over onto. >> sidewalks and. >> streets and. >> protests like this, not. >> just here in new. >> york city, but there are. >> also planned. >> for cities. >> across the country. >> including chicago. >> and across the. >> country in california. >> behind me, you'll. >> hear chanting. >> it's a mixture. >> of. students and faculty from nearby. >> universities were standing around the corner from. >> nyu. >> and people with. >> various organizations. >> there is.

>> a petition that has garnered more than. >> 2 million signatures calling for khalil's release since. he was. >> arrested on saturday night. >> from his university owned apartment in front of his wife, remember, who. is eight months pregnant. we learned from. >> court documents that khalil actually. had some concern leading. >> into the. >> days ahead of. >> his arrest. >> he reached out, according. >> to those court. >> documents. >> to the columbia interim president, saying. that he was fearful falling asleep. he was fearful. >> that he might. >> be arrested by ice. his wife, speaking out in a statement. for the first time, urging people to express understanding that she wants him to be released so that he can be by her side for the birth of their child. we are learning that he is not expected to appear in court here in new york city for that detention hearing tomorrow. meantime, we are also hearing from the white house press secretary speaking out on this, saying that he was arrested under the immigration and nationality act, saying he harassed jewish american students and that he handed out pro-hamas propaganda. the anti-defamation league, also

applauding the trump administration's efforts. meantime, columbia university, by the way, you may remember last week it was announced that that university would see a major cut to their funding, some $400 million, because of what they allege was ongoing anti-semitism. other universities across the country are also under investigation. as we continue to watch these protests in reaction to khalil's arrest play out here and across the country. >> emily, thank you for that. and joining me now, nbc's vaughn hillyard is back ceo of the jewish council for public affairs, amy spitalnick and the new york times reporter and msnbc contributor jeremy peters. so, vaughn, to pick up on what we were just hearing from emily. president trump warns this is just the beginning, that khalil is the first of many to come. his administration put out a list. i think it's over 60 schools that they're looking at for anti-semitism on campus. what more can you tell us? >> right? from california to indiana to new york. there are

60 schools that are now under investigation. the department of education says, as part of an executive order that was signed by president trump in his first week in office to create a multi-agency task force that included the department of education as well as the doj to target anti-semitism across the country through multiple means and in this case, through universities. and this is where mahmoud khalil's arrest is the first of what the administration considers to be a student who is here on a student visa. and as the attorney for khalil has indicated, also a permanent resident with a green card who the administration is seeking to deport despite having not provided actual allegations or charges against him as part of its arrest and deportation effort here. but what they claim to be a anti-semitic pro hamas

sympathizing, sympathizing efforts on his part during these protests that we saw play out over the course of this last year. and so for the administration here, i want to let you listen to caroline leavitt during her press briefing just a bit ago, talking about khalil's arrest. take a listen. >> mahmoud khalil was an individual who was given the privilege of coming to this country to study at one of our nation's finest universities and colleges, and he took advantage of that opportunity of that privilege by siding with terrorists. this administration is not going to tolerate individuals having the privilege of studying in our country and then siding with pro terrorist organizations. >> now, khalil and other pro-palestinian organizers and demonstrators have said that they are not anti-semitic, and that these are protests against the war that has been waged in the middle east. an attorney for khalil, writing in a statement, quote, he was chosen as an

example to stifle entirely lawful dissent and violation of the first amendment. again, what are the administration's ultimate goals here? and are there more students who they intend to arrest? it is unclear here at this time, but this investigation into these 60 universities indicate that the department of justice and the department of education intend to proceed with similar situations as mahmoud khalil's arrest in sending a message that they will target individuals who are demonstrating and what they say are causing anti-semitic sentiments on campuses across the country. >> vaughn, thank you for that. so, jeremy, again, i think it's worth repeating. this is the first person known to be detained for deportation under trump's plan. but he's made it clear and putting out a list of 60 schools that this ise start. you write about this debate over the freedom of speech on college campuses. they have always been seen as places where there are free exchanges of ideas. has the line moved for

what's acceptable? >> well, the line. >> has. >> certainly moved. >> from what republicans and conservatives would consider or used to consider acceptable for free speech, because it wasn't that long ago. you'll recall that conservatives and many pro-trump republicans were. >> not allowed to. >> speak on college. >> campuses. >> and that led to an understandable backlash. >> to universities and students who. >> were seen as being intolerant. >> of views. >> that they found uncomfortable. so now you have the president and the republican party backing. >> the removal. from the country of some. >> of these people who express ideas that many understandably find uncomfortable, but. >> that. >> have broken no. actual laws. and there's a difference there. you know. >> if somebody. >> breaks a law, yes, then they are subject to deportation. if they are here on a visa or. >> here, you know, temporarily. >> but being.

>> breaking the law. >> and saying something that is inadvisable or somewhat stupid in this case, aligning. yourself with. >> a group of murderous. >> anti-semites may not be the most advisable thing, but is it illegal? >> does it. >> rise to the level of getting. >> you and others like you kicked out of the country? i mean, the trump administration would. >> say yes. >> the courts, though, may. >> have. >> other ideas. >> well, i mean, i want to play some of what house speaker mike johnson said today about khalil's arrest. >> if you. were on a student. >> visa and you're in america and you're an aspiring young terrorist who wants to prey upon your jewish classmates, you're going home. we're going to arrest your tail, and we're going to send you home where you belong. >> and that. >> this is just getting started. >> so first i should say, khalil is not here on a student visa. he is a permanent u.s. resident with a green card, according to his lawyer. second, no charges have been filed. they have not put forth proof of terrorism, racism or terrorist activities. but are you concerned about the

wider impact this kind of arrest will have on free speech, even when it is seen as saying good things about a terror organization like hamas? >> well, look. >> multiple things. >> are true at the same time. we're facing a real issue of. >> anti-semitism on. >> campus and. >> much more widely. >> we know. >> that to be true. that doesn't. >> mean that the very real. >> fears and pains that the jewish community. >> has right now should. be exploited to undercut civil liberties, the. >> rule of law, and. >> our democratic values. >> and yet, that's. >> exactly what we're seeing. >> this administration do. it's not going to start and. stop with one palestinian. >> activist on one. >> college campus. >> we're going to. >> see this be used. >> as a tool. >> over and over. >> again to effectively squash. >> dissent, to. >> go after. those that the president disagrees. >> with, and. >> to fundamentally undercut both our liberal education institutions, as we're now seeing with the investigations of 60 other universities around. >> the country. >> to go after diversity, equity

and inclusion writ large, as we've also seen this administration. >> do, and. >> to fundamentally undermine the democratic norms that have, frankly. kept everyone in this country safe, including and especially the jewish community. so what we're seeing here. well, it's being framed as under the guise of protecting the jewish community, ultimately undercuts the very inclusive democracy that has been inherent to jewish safety. for decades. >> you are nodding, jeremy, and you have indeed written about this. >> right. well, i think that she gets at the fundamental question here. what price will our american civil liberties. >> ultimately pay. >> for the trump administration's desire. >> to. >> seek political. >> persecution and prosecution? i mean. this is a. >> president who. >> ran on vendetta, who ran on retribution. and right now you're seeing that being meted out. i mean, what president trump has done here, as you know, as we've just been saying, what's to prevent him from now going after people who oppose,

you know, his his immigration. policy or people who oppose him on. >> tariffs or who speak. >> out against him in, you know, any for any other reason. i mean, this is really from the constitutional scholars. i talked to, their perspective on this specific issue is very troubling because it's a slippery it's exactly the kind of slippery slope, slippery, slippery. >> slope that people worry. >> about when. >> it comes to. >> the selective. >> enforcement of. >> certain policies. not that there is any type of law here that trump is following. it's basically just his own whim. >> so, amy, federal immigration authorities also visited a second international student at columbia on friday, attempted to take her into custody, but they were not allowed to enter her apartment. that's according to a union representing the student. plus, carlisle's attorney says his wife. carlisle's wife, who is an american citizen and as we mentioned, eight months pregnant, was threatened with arrest by ice agents. what does that mean for the big picture

moving forward for basic constitutional rights, what will you be watching for? >> well, look, what we've seen here is, as jeremy just described, a slippery slope. we even saw this in the arrest of khalil. where first they said they were revoking his visa, and then they. and then they found out he has he had a green card and they changed their tune. obviously the threshold for what they can do changes based on whether he's here on a visa or a green card. and so this is not about any baseline law that they're trying to enforce. it's rather trying to twist the law to meet their political needs and goals. and that's deeply dangerous. that's effectively authoritarianism. and so what we're going to be watching for is how this administration continues to exploit and weaponize, again, very real, legitimate concerns about antisemitism on campus. and beyond that, the jewish community has that are real and how the administration uses it to advance its own extremist political agenda, which, again, does nothing for jewish safety,

nothing for the jewish community that this president claims to want to protect. if he was interested in protecting the jewish community, there are a variety of steps he could take, including rejecting the bigoted conspiracy theories and lies that have fueled so many of his policies that have led directly to the mass murder of jews in places like the tree of life synagogue in pittsburgh. he can reject officials and his administration, like elon musk or the new deputy press secretary at the pentagon that have directly trafficked in neo-nazi ideas and conspiracy theories. and he could advance the sorts of inclusive democratic values that, again, are inherent to jewish safety and the safety of all communities. >> so, jeremy, this expands to harvard, upenn and mit have now all announced hiring freezes over, fear that the trump administration could cut their funding. and, of course, he had eliminated $400 million in funding from columbia. i was talking with a professor there who was talking about the profound effects. this has. it's

broad, and it affects potentially a lot of students, whatever their religious, ethnic background might be. >> oh. >> yeah, that's right. this research funding is it's a huge source of revenue for these universities. i mean, and this didn't always used to be the case. so you have to kind of look at these funding cuts in the context of what higher education has become and how in many cases. >> it really. >> is in need of. significant reform. but i think this is a type of policy of trump's that is really typical of his taking a generally good idea, an idea. i think that people on both sides of the political spectrum would say we should visit that, whether it's reevaluating our policy. on china. or looking at the criminal justice system or immigration policy. education, higher education is in need of some type of reform. but he's gone. so far by, you know. unilaterally stripping hundreds of millions of dollars of funding, announcing deportations

against student activists that it's become just another battle in the culture wars. and i don't think that, you know, many people who would otherwise say, yeah. >> maybe we should. >> look at putting more conditions on the funding that these universities get. i don't think many people are now going to have an open mind about that. >> yeah. jeremy peters, amy spitalnick, such an important conversation. thank you both for coming on the show. meantime, a justice department lawyer was fired one day after refusing to recommend that gun access be restored for actor mel gibson, who lost that right after being convicted in a 2011 domestic violence case, two doj officials familiar with the matter confirmed the story to nbc news, which was first reported in the new york times. devlin barrett broke the story for the times. he joins me now. devlin, one official told nbc that the firing was not tied to gibson's case. but then another doj official said, quote, her ouster is part of a very concerning set

of personnel moves in which officials who might act as checks on abuses of power were being ousted. tell me what you learned about the sequence of events leading up to this firing. >> well. >> it's a pretty. >> remarkable chain of events that happened, and it all. essentially came to. a head last week. >> the official. >> liz oyer had been. >> working on very quietly on a on a. >> nonpublic program that was the justice department. >> was considering letting. >> some small number. >> of folks with. >> convictions get their rights to own a gun. >> returned to them. >> because obviously. >> under federal. >> law, people. >> with convictions. >> generally are not allowed to. >> own firearms. >> and that. >> process was. >> going forward and there were concerns and, you know, about and there were discussions about, well, what types of convictions should be eligible for this. and eventually they were down to about nine names. and then when she was ready to sort of give her blessing, at least to the nine names,

suddenly she got real a curveball question, which was, we'd like you to add mel gibson to the list. the actor and according to according to the officials who spoke to her, the actor had been seeking to get his gun rights back. he had tried to buy a gun a couple of years ago and was denied, and the senior justice department officials basically wanted the pardon, attorney's blessing and recommendation to give these gun rights back. and it really, it seemed to be to her both very serious and a little bit absurd. >> yeah. how does a pardon attorney i mean help people who don't understand exactly what they do understand how this fits into this overall story and why it's important. >> right. so this is not something. part of what was strange about this sequence of events is this is not an issue that the pardon attorney would normally be handling. what the what her superiors seemed to want was the blessing of the pardon attorney's office to start giving gun rights back to

some people who had convictions. and, you know, as she described it to me, there were, you know, potential dangers of that. but she but she wasn't intrinsically opposed to the very premise of the idea, but it all sort of went sideways when even though she's asked to do this thing that's pretty outside her lane, suddenly they just sort of throw mel gibson on top of the pile and say, it's important that you also do this for him. and that's when she balks. and that's when it gets contentious. >> devlin barrett, some great reporting per usual from you. thank you so much for coming on the show. and that's going to do it for us this hour. make sure to join us for chris jansing reports every weekday, 1 to 3 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. our coverage continues msnbc. our coverage continues with katy tur here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, meals from complete nutrition you need, and the flavor you love. so, here's to now... now available: boost max!

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